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magnetism
I am a science teacher.
I have problem to understand and teaching the theory of magnetism.

The arrangement of domains and the magnetic field are usually taught in the lesson of magnetism. However, some books that I read mentioned that the spin of the electrons cause the magnetism. There are some modern physicists also offer some explanations about magnetism, which is too abstract for me to comprehend.

Therefore, I would like to know what is the most undated theory to explain microscopic level of the magnetism. Furthermore, I also wonder why the different spins of the electrons would cause magnetism.


Could you offer qualitative explanations to clarify magnetism? You can also use analogy or more concrete way to simplified the abstract and sophisticated theories of magnetism.

I appreciate your help.
fizzeksman


Hello.... The following is a link that will provide the answers you seek by way of an alternative theory. While the information as provided may not be acceptable to teach as stated, I believe it will in simplistic form provide you with a logical comprehension of magnetics that will ease the burden of explaining a difficult subject. Searching about Electrodynamics http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewt...dfbba2498aaeb37

Good Luck
4Dguy
magnetism,

You will not find this anywhere but I think I know how magnetism works. You know the formula E=MC^2. Well E/M=C^2 then when the Mass is infinitely small E=C^2. So space is made up of energy believe it or not, many do not. If this is true than energy is a real physical object separate from mass. If energy is separate from mass than all movement of electrons protons and neutrons come from space energy. This is what you need to know to understand what I will tell you next about magnetism.

Naturally occurring magnetic materials all have open bodied lattice structure that allows the electrons to form a continuous electron spin of space energy all going in the same direction (lets say clockwise). It is clockwise going in (lets say from the south) and clockwise going out (Lets say from the north). A south north or a north south orientation has the same spin rotation and causes the least resistance when combined so they attract. Space energy spin follows the inverse square law as it travels out of the magnet into space back to ciaos energy. North to north and south to south are mirror images of themselves and have opposite spins when placed together. Put two of the same pole together sometime and feel how they want to rotate around but not attract.

Electromagnetism is the same idea but they use wire to run electricity through in the same direction to create the attractive force. The electricity spins the space energy.

No one understands this yet because scientists haven't realized the real meaning behind the fact that all mass has entropy. Mass is just a conduit for space energy. Mass reduces space energy and potential energy of mass follows space energy potential. The center of a planet would have the lowest potential energy of mass( you would be weightless there also) and space energy (low space energy is the cause of gravity).

You can not teach this though because no one believes it yet. Gravity and magnetism are only taught through their effects and not as a mechanism.
cjameshuff
QUOTE (magnetism+Jan 9 2007, 10:53 PM)
The arrangement of domains and the magnetic field are usually taught in the lesson of magnetism. However, some books that I read mentioned that the spin of the electrons cause the magnetism. There are some modern physicists also offer some explanations about magnetism, which is too abstract for me to comprehend.

Therefore, I would like to know what is the most undated theory to explain microscopic level of the magnetism. Furthermore, I also wonder why the different spins of the electrons would cause magnetism.

You would be well advised to look elsewhere for detailed answers...the signal to noise ratio is likely to be quite low here.

However, a simple answer is that those models are not contradictory. Magnetic domains are regions where the magnetic moments of individual atoms are aligned, the magnetic moment of an atom being a result of the electron spins in the electron shells of that atom. They can grow or shrink as the magnetic moments of individual atoms at their boundaries switch their alignments to or from the alignments of adjacent domains, and in magnetized objects, the majority of the domains are aligned in more or less the same direction, giving an overall magnetic field.

You could liken domains to a line of dominos with the bases filed so they can't stand up...the dominos lie down in one direction or the other, and you can have separate parts of the line lie in opposite directions. A domain would be a span of dominos sharing an orientation, while the overall spin of an atom's electrons would be analogous to the orientation of a single domino.

Why does a magnetic field result from electron spin? The electron has charge and angular momentum, so it is required to have a magnetic field consisting of a north and south pole. This is an oversimplication, but a full answer would require a lot of study in quantum mechanics.

I suggest you look in Wikipedia and Google on such topics as ferromagnetism, magnetic moment, magnetic domain, and any other terms these searches lead you to.
ChaosTheory
The spinning of an electron? I've never heard that in all the books i've ever read.

Magnetism (to me) seems to be just the relative gravitational forces that is focused onto a singular point.
magnetism has appropriate properties much like gravity i.e. it can pull things towards it or (with enough resistance) push it away.
If the electrons do indeed spin they they would generate a small almost non-existent gravitational force of their own.
And since magnets are polarized (north, south etc) then the spinning electrons would spin in the same direction at the same speed which contributes to the overall pull, or push they have on an object.

The electrons might be magnetized themselves to attract only metal objects.

Hopefully that helps.
If youve got anymore question send a PM or two.
4Dguy
magnetism,

Like I said no one knows what causes magnetism.

QUOTE
Why does a magnetic field result from electron spin? The electron has charge and angular momentum, so it is required to have a magnetic field consisting of a north and south pole.


As you can see this is not an explanation. Magic!

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Why does a magnetic field result from electron spin? The electron has charge and angular momentum, so it is required to have a magnetic field consisting of a north and south pole.


As you can see this is not an explanation. Magic!

The electrons might be magnetized themselves to attract only metal objects.


More magic no real explanation.
Ron
Hi Magnetism (et all),
CJames is right. You caught this site at a time when very few contributers are not trying to peddle their psedo science explanations, which, in your case is completely inappropriate. I apologize for the confusion this may cause.
I, personally, have enough experience here to know who is trying to help themselves rather than you.
If you want to find some really well explained, accepted understanding to these questions, I would suggest this site from Georgia State University's dept of Physics and Astronomy.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

If you follow the "Electricity and Magnetism" bubble to "Magnetic Field" and then hit the "Magnetic field Concepts" side index, you will run into some very detailed (but understandable) explanations to some of the concepts that CJames mentioned.
Good Luck. I hope you find this site (Hyperphysics) helpful for this and many other subjects you may want very good info on. Also, don't give up on Physorg, If you keep browsing and posting, you'll find there are many well informed, pleasent and helpful members.
Take care,
Ron
4Dguy
magnetism,

Ron is correct and he placed you back to the electron spin and the abstract idea of a magnetic moment and a field. No one knows what the field is and a magnetic moment? you are correct.

QUOTE
There are some modern physicists also offer some explanations about magnetism, which is too abstract for me to comprehend.


And Ron put you back in the same predicament you were in, its vague because it is unknown how it works.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
There are some modern physicists also offer some explanations about magnetism, which is too abstract for me to comprehend.


And Ron put you back in the same predicament you were in, its vague because it is unknown how it works.

You caught this site at a time when very few contributers are not trying to peddle their psedo science explanations, which, in your case is completely inappropriate. I apologize for the confusion this may cause.


I am sorry I did not call it pseudo (or psedo) Ron science but it is what I believe to be true. Yes it is inappropriate to teach untested science to students that is why I said.

QUOTE
You can not teach this though because no one believes it yet.


It is also inappropriate to teach the big bang. It is faith science. We discuss new ideas here and some think we should only discuss the current accepted beliefs.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You can not teach this though because no one believes it yet.


It is also inappropriate to teach the big bang. It is faith science. We discuss new ideas here and some think we should only discuss the current accepted beliefs.

Furthermore, I also wonder why the different spins of the electrons would cause magnetism.


This is what is not known in science today. I gave you my view and qualified it by saying.

QUOTE
You will not find this anywhere but I think I know how magnetism works.


This is what you were asking for and this is something science has no answer for so if it was inappropriate to give you my ideas I am sorry.

Tell them it is a field (of what I do not know) tell them the spin creates a magnet moment and hope no one asks you what that is because no one knows.

Some people think for themselves and do not rely on waiting for science to come up with answers for them.

Whats inappropriate is making believe we know the mechanism of magnetism when we do not. We do know how the field reacts but that is all.

Forgive me if you are not interested in possibilities.
Montec
Hello magnetism

Basically magnetism is caused by unpaired electrons in a ferromagnetic material. Unpaired electrons are electrons that do not have an electron with the opposite spin at nearly the same energy level. This relates to the quantum numbers and energy levels of materials and the sequence the energy levels fill up as you go from hydrogen to Ununoctium(?).
As to the spin caused magnetic moment, there is a theory out there about relativistically caused magnetic fields from moving electrical charges. There are also some theories that say the electron is a trapped electromagnetic wave. See here: http://members.chello.nl/~n.benschop/electron.pdf

What you teach is up to you.

smile.gif



Clem
QUOTE (fizzeksman+Jan 10 2007, 02:54 AM)
Hello.... The following is a link that will provide the answers you seek by way of an alternative theory. While the information as provided may not be acceptable to teach as stated, I believe it will in simplistic form provide you with a logical comprehension of magnetics that will ease the burden of explaining a difficult subject. Searching about Electrodynamics http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewt...dfbba2498aaeb37

Good Luck

Everything I see on this link is wrong.
Clem
QUOTE (cjameshuff+Jan 10 2007, 07:24 PM)
You would be well advised to look elsewhere for detailed answers...the signal to noise ratio is likely to be quite low here.

However, a simple answer is that those models are not contradictory. Magnetic domains are regions where the magnetic moments of individual atoms are aligned, the magnetic moment of an atom being a result of the electron spins in the electron shells of that atom. They can grow or shrink as the magnetic moments of individual atoms at their boundaries switch their alignments to or from the alignments of adjacent domains, and in magnetized objects, the majority of the domains are aligned in more or less the same direction, giving an overall magnetic field.

You could liken domains to a line of dominos with the bases filed so they can't stand up...the dominos lie down in one direction or the other, and you can have separate parts of the line lie in opposite directions. A domain would be a span of dominos sharing an orientation, while the overall spin of an atom's electrons would be analogous to the orientation of a single domino.

Why does a magnetic field result from electron spin? The electron has charge and angular momentum, so it is required to have a magnetic field consisting of a north and south pole. This is an oversimplication, but a full answer would require a lot of study in quantum mechanics.

I suggest you look in Wikipedia and Google on such topics as ferromagnetism, magnetic moment, magnetic domain, and any other terms these searches lead you to.

This is the only sensible post in this thread.

I would only add a bit about the electron magnetic moment.
The electron has a spin of 1/2 (in units of hbar) and a magnetic moment
of 1 Bohr magneton. These follow from relativiatic quantum mechanics (the Dirac equation) and are confirmed by experiment. Iron has two outer electrons that pair with their spins in the same direction (due to Hund's principle in atomic physics). This gives the iron atom a large magnetic moment. Then a cooperative effect tends to line a large number of iron atoms in the same direction leading to domains with a large magnetic moment, resulting in ferromagnetism. Thus both domains and electron spin lead to ferromagnetism, with the domains composed of large numbers of aligned iron atoms.

Your experience with the myriad of confusion in this thread should teach you not to give up on books just yet, and don't trust anything on the web. There are a couple of good books on magnetism by Daniel Mattis. They are at a high level, but some of the introductory parts may be useful.
mr_homm
I posted a short discussion on a related topic in an earlier thread here. Perhaps it will be of some help.

--Stuart Anderson
fizzeksman
.

Clem
QUOTE
QUOTE (fizzeksman @ Jan 10 2007, 02:54 AM)
Hello.... The following is a link that will provide the answers you seek by way of an alternative theory. While the information as provided may not be acceptable to teach as stated, I believe it will in simplistic form provide you with a logical comprehension of magnetics that will ease the burden of explaining a difficult subject. Searching about Electrodynamics http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewt...dfbba2498aaeb37

Good Luck. 

Clem
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
QUOTE (fizzeksman @ Jan 10 2007, 02:54 AM)
Hello.... The following is a link that will provide the answers you seek by way of an alternative theory. While the information as provided may not be acceptable to teach as stated, I believe it will in simplistic form provide you with a logical comprehension of magnetics that will ease the burden of explaining a difficult subject. Searching about Electrodynamics http://www.anti-relativity.com/forum/viewt...dfbba2498aaeb37

Good Luck. 

Clem
Everything I see on this link is wrong.


Clem...
Can your comprehension of magnetism explain Earth's magnetic field or any other magnetic field far removed from the presence of spinning electrons?
Can it explain why electromagnetic radiation is only magnetic in nature?
Can it explain in a mechanistic manner exactly what constitutes a field.. magnetic or otherwise?
Can it explain charge?
Can it explain the true nature of energy on its most fundamental level?

If the answer is yes... then please provide one or more of those explanations.

If not......
All the above and more are discussed in detail in that wrong link above.
smile.gif

.
kaneda
magnetism. Oddly the main 3 magnetic elements are all next to each other in the periodic table. Iron = 26, Cobalt = 27, Nickel = 28.

No.25 manganese can also be magnetic, notably manganese dioxide (pyrolusite). Layered chromium (24) can be magnetic as can alloys of vanadium (23). It is odd that there are this "block" of six metals that can be magnetic.

Could it be something to do with the wavelength of magnetism? Fe, Co, Ni all have bond lengths of between 248-251:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/ele...t/Fe/radii.html

Cr falls into that band too. Maybe alloys of V and Mn slip them into that area where they can be magnetic?
Clem
QUOTE (kaneda+Feb 2 2007, 10:23 AM)
magnetism. Oddly the main 3 magnetic elements are all next to each other in the periodic table. Iron = 26, Cobalt = 27, Nickel = 28.

No.25 manganese can also be magnetic, notably manganese dioxide (pyrolusite). Layered chromium (24) can be magnetic as can alloys of vanadium (23). It is odd that there are this "block" of six metals that can be magnetic.

Could it be something to do with the wavelength of magnetism? Fe, Co, Ni all have bond lengths of between 248-251:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/ele...t/Fe/radii.html

Cr falls into that band too. Maybe alloys of V and Mn slip them into that area where they can be magnetic?

Those elements are all in the 4th period of the periodic table.
The outer electrons of the first 6 elements of that period are in the 3d_{5/2}
state. The next 4, (Z=25,26,27,28) are in the 3d_{3/2} state,
and act a bit like electrons outside a somewhat closed shell.
That is why those four are readily magnetically polarized.
(It also is, coincidentally, why they have similar radii, but the radius does not affect their magnetic properties.) For z=23 and 24, the shortage of two and one electron also could lead to this magnetic polarization, in a somewhat modified way.
Harvey
As simply as I can state it, moving charged particles (current) cause magnetic fields. A wire with a current (moving electrons) will cause a magnetic field. We call this an electromagnet. Therefore in the microscopic world of atoms, a spinning (moving) electron will likewise cause a magnetic field. In 1921 Stern and Gerlach demonstrated this by shooting a beam of atoms into a magnetic field. The beam split into two beams --- one heading to the north pole and the other south showing that the atoms were in fact tiny magnets, and that there were two types.
Permanent magnets are also manifestations of this effect.
smile.gif
jsaldea12

You are right. It is the making of the law of opposite.


jsaldea12

6.14.09
f100b
heyz.


just a wondering if anyone could help me with phys question that light is part of the electromagnetic spectrum and does this mean that light can be influenced by strong magnetic fields? thx
jsaldea12


yes.


jsaldeaq12


6.23.09
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