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PJParent001
Okay here is a simple idea we have not yet bothered to implement for unknown reasons.

How feasible or unfeasable would it be I wonder to SIMPLY feed the environmentally harmful, climate changing, and lung damaging automobile exhausts through a small COMPRESSOR and STORE IT in a TANK for later reprocessing by recycling stations.

Has this been done or tried before? I think this would be less expensive for those who choose to value that.

Yes indeed. If some fiat value was placed on exhausts of all sorts, they would definitely become commodities, keeping in mind it might encourage some to deliberately produce more exhaust, which might turn out to be a cash crop for the petrochemical industry. A vicious cycle it is until we eliminate harmful smog causing emmisions. Acid rain means acid oceans which lead to the death of the corals and the fishes in the oceans which all life depends on. Since it has long been one of the major problems facing humankind, one would think todays generations would be more than ready for such an initiative. We definitely need to get a grip on air pollution by eliminating harmful and damaging emissions.

POLLUTION IS NOT COOL cool.gif

paul h
PJParent001,
Your idea sounds simple enough alright but,,,
An engine requires a good air flow through it's combustion chamber to work. It would be like asking you to only exhale into a balloon. Yes you could do that for the most part but now add to this requiring you to run a 4 minute mile. As the tank that you wish to put the exhaust gas into becomes pressurized the engine would slow down until a point when the air pressure in the tank is equal to the outside air pressure at this point all work of the engine would stop. If you had enough pressure on your lungs so as to keep them from taking in new air you would also stop.

> POLLUTION IS NOT COOL... you said it, this is why I am such a big fan of the electric car. charge it with PV cells or wind and we would have allot cleaner air. There are many advantages to an electric car. I can't wait for the new Chevy Volt. In the meanwhile I have for the past 2 years been building my own electric car. From scratch, not a conversion. By the time I get it ready for the batteries perhaps they will be cheaper.
yor_on
As nano technology gets better i would expect much better battery capacity. Somewhere here i read about a new nanotecnology imbedding nano 'coaltubes' in the battery giving it up to a thirty percent longer 'lifecycle' of unbroken electricity deliverance. That's cool :)
PJParent001
Thanks Paul. The exhaust after passing the catalytic converter could be turbocharged (extreme variable vacuum) and blown either through a oneway valve or another compressor and into the tank. I understand hot exhaust gases power turbos extremely well. The tank could be emptied at either the filling station or a recycling station.

So we have exhaust from the converter into the turbo then past the oneway valve into the tank. Then the converter could perhaps be removed and save signifcant cost. The idea might only be feasible for driving around town, but just that, I believe would be a major improvement. Can you imagine smog free skies? Breathing clean fresh air everyday? I think recent events show the world is moving towards closing the hydrocarbon cycle. Trap. Store. Reprocess. Collectively and globally we can choose greener manufacturing of greener products.

I'd be willing to tow a trailer behind my car in order to trap exhaust gases if need be as it would at least demonstrate proof of concept as well as trap emissions.

I think the reason it isn't being done is it might seem a bit silly, but when I consider the ramifications, it makes me wonder why it isn't being done. Of course this idea isn't knew since I recall thinking about such an approach in my early teens.

I think electric cars are great too. Batteries will become better and cheaper and I have learned recently one can addon supercapacitors.

When a vehicle starts braking, heat from the brakes could be transformed into electricity to charge up the batteries. The crap flying off of the brakes should not be allowed into the environment either. Also when a vehicle coasts down a hill, the amount of energy being wasted is relatively enormous!

I've done some reading and it still seems solar and wind are a good way to go. It would be nice if we could all afford to install solar panels.

Best of luck on your electric car. I would buy one if I could afford it.

Keep it green! cool.gif
PJParent001
QUOTE (yor_on+Nov 11 2007, 09:53 PM)
As nano technology gets better i would expect much better battery capacity. Somewhere here i read about a new nanotecnology imbedding nano 'coaltubes' in the battery giving it up to a thirty percent longer 'lifecycle' of unbroken electricity deliverance. That's cool smile.gif

Definitely an improvement and superexcellent for some apps. I should be in the carbon nanotube biz! I think the new recharchable ''nickel metal hydride batteries'' (NiMH) are superexcellent for energy storage. Amazing stuff. You can check it out: ovonics.com The man who figured it out is brilliant. His manufacturing plant pumps out flexible thinfilm solar panels that are over a mile long! It's wild. When they pump H2 into a tank containing NiMH for storage, they get superexcellent storage capacity, plus HEAT! AMAZING!
Zarkov
Why don't you just use fuel that when combusted does not cause any emissions ??

Just need to widen your thinking.... A LOT

>> this is why I am such a big fan of the electric car. charge it with PV cells or wind and we would have allot cleaner air. >>>

well not really practical, IMO

Wind, PV cells etc are low energy and this world needs high energy on demand... now!

The concept of a liquid fuel was/is a really good idea.

Batteries need to be disposed of...

Electricity is good, but the current generation methods are very polluting

Expand your thinking
there are much better methods
paul h
PJParent001,
The waste tank would be the size of a semi trailer to keep from pressurizing to the point that the engine wouldn't work. The extra fuel used to pull the tank around would cause more waste than it could trap. A compressor large enough to pump that much air ( ~ 600 - 800 CFM) would take all of the power from the engine. and I do mean ALL. You can't power a turbo with exhaust to pump the exhaust gas that would be like using a motor to power a generator (in a loop). Any device that could turn break heat into electricity would weigh more than the electricity that it would produce. However, an electric car can do that just by taking your foot off of the go peddle, by turning the motor into a generator while you slow down.

Zarkov,
>Why don't you just use fuel that when combusted does not cause any emissions ??

Because IF there were such a thing it would cost too much.

>well not really practical, IMO Wind, PV cells etc are low energy....

Well I didn't mean that you should haul them around with you. I am a big fan of plug in recharging. Fuel cells generate the electricity on the fly from H but I don't think that we can generate point of use electricity cheaper than a power company can. and with lighter batteries the weight of a H tank and fuel cell compared to batteries would be a wash. (lbs for lbs) The wind generators in use now are usually 3 - 5 megawatts. 3 of those would power the average Caribbean island nation. The island nation of St. Kitts use between 9 and 12 megawatts now (but they would love to have 20) OK thats 4 wind generators and there is always wind there. Wind gererators are by no means "low energy"

>Batteries need to be disposed of...

Batteries are one of the most recycled product on the market. over 95% of a battery is recycled, and the rest is disposed of properly.

>Electricity is good, but the current generation methods are very polluting

Do you mean the current methods like wind, hydro, PV nuclear or do you think that we still use heavy diesel oil like they do in Guatemala. We just need more power plants to drive the price down.

>Expand your thinking... there are much better methods

I don't mean to sound harsh but,
We have some of the worlds best and brightest minds working on this and they are making GREAT progress. look at electricity production from coal. How clean it it now compared to 50 years ago. But what we don't need is the likes of the Serra club suing the power companies because a bird flew into the blades.

Sapo
Or, we could ride cows. That way, everyone could pay a carbon offset to the oil companies and the status would remain quo.

edit: mad.gif I am bitchy about this, and don't often participate in 'Green' threads. 'Nuff said. smile.gif
PJParent001
QUOTE (Zarkov+Nov 12 2007, 10:17 AM)
Why don't you just use fuel that when combusted does not cause any emissions ??

I like the concept of growing algae to produce H2. The little critters reproduce every 5 hours! They eat sulphur to produce O2! If you starve them they create H2 for 3 days before croaking so you feed them some sulphur to get them going again. A highly efficient and climate friendly alga culture system would most likely produce vast quantities of H2.

paul h
Sapo,
>I am bitchy about this, and don't often participate in 'Green' threads. 'Nuff said.

I understand,,, Take a deep breath, count to ten, have a beer, don't get all worked up. Tell you what, I'll do my best to stave off these easy ones. You and the others can come to my rescue when I call for help if I get in over my head with the math.
PJParent001
QUOTE (paul h+Nov 12 2007, 11:34 PM)
You can't power a turbo with exhaust to pump the exhaust gas that would be like using a motor to power a generator (in a loop). Any device that could turn break heat into electricity would weigh more than the electricity that it would produce. However, an electric car can do that just by taking your foot off of the go peddle,

re You can't power a turbo with exhaust to pump the exhaust
Ok I haven't quite figured that one out yet but it seems there's got to be a way.
Sapo
QUOTE (paul h+Nov 12 2007, 06:58 PM)
Sapo,
>I am bitchy about this, and don't often participate in 'Green' threads. 'Nuff said.

I understand,,, Take a deep breath, count to ten, have a beer, don't get all worked up. Tell you what, I'll do my best to stave off these easy ones. You and the others can come to my rescue when I call for help if I get in over my head with the math.

cool.gif Thanks, bra'.
paul h
QUOTE (PJParent001+Nov 12 2007, 08:14 PM)
re You can't power a turbo with exhaust to pump the exhaust
Ok I haven't quite figured that one out yet but I feel there's got to be a way.

A turbo compressor uses the exhaust gas flow to turn a small turbine wheel that sucks in fresh air from another pipe and pushes it down the engine's intake. There are 2 separate air flows going on there. one intake pipe for fresh air and one for exaust air. turning the turbine does not take much power from the engine. Because the exhaust air can still flow out with ease. If however you pipe the exhaust into a tank that will cause a restriction as the tank pressurizes. Or another way to look at it is like this: the engine makes about 600 CFM of air flow , in one end and out the other, (flow through) if the air can't get out , new air won't go in. You can't pipe part of it to turn the turbine so that it can pressurize the other part. That would be perpetual motion. If the turbine created let's say 3 psi of pressure to fill the waste tank. as soon as the tank reaches 3 psi then the whole thing stops. (both sides are equal now, no flow).
paul h
QUOTE (Sapo+Nov 12 2007, 08:26 PM)
cool.gif Thanks, bra'.

Sapo,

uhh, that's brO, not bra,,,, sad.gif
but we're still cool. cool.gif
paul h
PJParent001,
Something for you to think about. Take your idea and put it on the other end, it would work. If you carry a large tank of air and pump it down the intake,, then the exhaust could be stored in another tank until the 2 tanks get close to equal. BUT,, the cost would be so high that I promise you we would all rather be riding Sapo's cow because those tanks would be very large.

biggrin.gif
Tanks allot
Paul
Sapo
QUOTE (paul h+Nov 12 2007, 07:41 PM)
Sapo,

uhh, that's brO, not bra,,,, sad.gif
but we're still cool. cool.gif

laugh.gif Sorry! That is Hawaiian slang for 'brother', one of my ex-wives had a couple of tours there, and I picked up a little. Don't get me going about Minehune! ohmy.gif
paul h
Sapo,
>one of my ex-wives

By the time you can read a woman like a book, your to old to start a library.
Sapo
QUOTE (paul h+Nov 12 2007, 08:08 PM)
Sapo,
>one of my ex-wives

By the time you can read a woman like a book, your to old to start a library.

laugh.gif You must be young! Nobody can read a woman like a book, unless it's another woman.

And, I have books out the wazoo, just not enough shelf space... smile.gif
PJParent001
QUOTE (paul h+Nov 13 2007, 12:56 AM)
PJParent001,
Something for you to think about. Take your idea and put it on the other end,  it would work. If you carry a large tank of air and pump it down the intake,, then the exhaust could be stored in another tank until the 2 tanks get close to equal. BUT,, the cost would be so high that I promise you we would all rather be riding Sapo's cow because those tanks would be very large.

biggrin.gif
Tanks allot
Paul

3 psi sure isn't very much. We need way more compression than that. Plus I had no idea how many CFM a cars exhaust pipe outputs. 600 to 800 CFM. That's a lot! Your idea of a tank of air for the intake is brilliant. But if there is a turbo pupmping air into the engine and a turbo sucking it out and a compressor pumping the exhaust into the tank...

Okay. To save myself from having to tow a small factory around town laugh.gif I will keep the electric car idea in mind.

Thanks for the info!
Zarkov
>> Because IF there were such a thing it would cost too much.

LOL, no not at all

Look the future demands such an innovation, it really isn't that hard

Big Oil has a strangle hold around everyone's necks

Just put your thinking caps on

and I will tell you when you are right !
paul h
QUOTE (Zarkov+Nov 13 2007, 02:26 AM)
>>  Because IF there were such a thing it would cost too much.

LOL, no not at all

Look the future demands such an innovation, it really isn't that hard

Big Oil has a strangle hold around everyone's necks

Just put your thinking caps on

and I will tell you when you are right !


>LOL, no not at all

Why is the fact that there is NO fuel that does not have emissions so funny?
If it's so easy then by all means go for it.

> Just put your thinking caps on and I will tell you when you are right !

If you knew half as much as you think you do you would not have made half of the statements that you already have. thinking cap laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Zarkov
LOL
so be it
paul h
PJParent001
>OK. To save myself from having to tow a small factory around town

Now your getting there,, the more weight you haul around the more power it requires to go, the more power, the more pollution. It's like a dog chasing it's tail.

We are getting there, and it's not so slowly either. look at the cars of the Early '70s and compare them to todays. The new 1974 Chevy was rated for 4 MPG. it belched out so much smoke that you could see the soot coming out of the tail pipe when you floored it. the warranty was good for 12 months or 12,000 miles. (and it usually broke down before that) it had a life expectancy of 80 to 100 K miles (if it didn't rust out first) now compare that to a new 2008 hybrid SUV. True the car guys have gotten carried away with new gadget syndrome and that has the price up to more than I paid for my house but. Look how far we have come in the past 30 years. Look at how bad the air was in LA back then and look now (and consider how many more cars there are there now).

Zarkov,
Don't get in a hough, just defend you claims (if you can)
What is this zero emission fuel that you keep hinting at?
PJParent001
Ok so I need a converter to strip the oxygen molecule off of the carbon molecule, send the oxygen back to the engine and collect the carbon in a tank for recycling.

adoucette
QUOTE (PJParent001+Nov 14 2007, 10:39 AM)
Ok so I need a converter to strip the oxygen molecule off of the carbon molecule, send the oxygen back to the engine and collect the carbon in a tank for recycling.

If you want to "collect the carbon" the point of attack would be the LARGE STATIONARY POINT SOURCES.

The most OBVIOUS of which is the Coal power plants which produce most of the world's electricity.

US example:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...US_2005_New.png

User posted image

If you can't do it efficiently on these power plants you have no chance of doing it efficiently on moving vehicles where any additional weight requires even more energy input.

Arthur
PJParent001
Wow. Nuclear puts out that much? I agree. Cleaning coal and scrubbing the exhaust is super excellent however some of the crap in the coal is radio active and that's yucky. Did you know birth defects in China have increased at an alarming rate since 2000? Did you know the crap China pumps in the air takes only 2 weeks to cross the Pacific Ocean? Do we have to go over there and give them free clean coal technology?

adoucette
QUOTE (PJParent001+Nov 14 2007, 11:10 AM)
Wow. Nuclear puts out that much? I agree. Cleaning coal and scrubbing the exhaust is super excellent however some of the crap in the coal is radio active and that's yucky. Did you know birth defects in China have increased at an alarming rate since 2000? Did you know the crap China pumps in the air takes only 2 weeks to cross the Pacific Ocean? Do we have to go over there and give them free clean coal technology?

Yes, I'm well aware, which is why I'm a big supporter of the "clean coal" initiative.

If you first convert the coal to a "syn-gas" prior to burning it there is NO radiation, No Mercury and no Soot released. In addition the amount of NOx and SOx are greatly reduced. Finally, there is an overall increase in the amount of BTUs produced vs the amount of CO2 released.

No one needs to help China, they CLEARLY have the resources required to clean up their act, what they lack is the DESIRE to do so.

It certainly didn't help when most of the Western world fostered this backward view of the global nature of pollution when they decided that China should be left out of Kyoto.

Arthur

PJParent001
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 14 2007, 04:42 PM)
If you first convert the coal to a "syn-gas" prior to burning it there is NO radiation, No Mercury and no Soot released. In addition the amount of NOx and SOx are greatly reduced. Finally, there is an overall increase in the amount of BTUs produced vs the amount of CO2 released.

no radiation is good

no mercury is good

no soot is good

NOx is very bad

SOx is very bad

BTUs are good

CO2 is very bad

CO is very bad

I thought the USA had cleaned up its act.

POLLUTION SUCKS! cool.gif
paul h
PJParent001

http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/sec/i...ois/envirky.htm

from from this site:

Is coal contributing more SO2 to the atmosphere each year?
U. S. government data clearly indicates a decrease in both total SO2 emissions and in those coming from coal-fired power plants since enactment of the Clean Air Act in 1970. This occurred while there was an increase in the use of fossil fuels, especially coal. These emissions should continue to decrease with increased use of clean coal technologies that offer new methods of using coal in an environmentally sound manner.

PJParent001
Definitely things have improved. Unleaded gas, low sulphur diesel, CO2 scrubbers.
I'll need to learn more about clean coal technology.


Learn How Much Your Power Plant Pollutes
By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer
http://www.physorg.com/news114279955.html

YUCK!

PJParent001
Australians named worst emitters
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7092989.stm

I'm not sure the calculations should be based on per capita alone. I would think land mass, water bodies, forests, deserts, would come into play.

Some will argue CO2 is required for plants to grow. Yes that is true. Photosynthesis in plants converts CO2 into O2 during the day. Then during the night, photosynthesis in plants breathes in O2 and creates CO2.

Given that, one might ask what is the optimal level of CO2 in the atmosphere or inside an actual greenhouse.

The fact remains, the oceans are now nearly saturated with CO2. I understand coral, phytoplankton, and fish do not thrive so well under such conditions. So, too much of a good thing often leads to disaster.
PJParent001
'Unexpected growth' in CO2 found
Carbon dioxide (CO2) levels in the atmosphere have risen 35% faster than expected since 2000, says a study. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7058074.stm

Wow. Definitely room for improvement.
adoucette
I always wonder when a headline says something "Grew faster than expected", what is ACTUALLY the issue.

Did the "something" actually GROW FASTER or were the EXPECTATIONS wrong, or both?

So, the underlying issue is, ignoring "expectations":

Did CO2 actually GROW 35% FASTER since 2000, then it did in the 90s?

Well, we do have the CO2 records for the periods in question, so:

CODE

Year CO2 ppm Increase Avg Year
1994 358.9  
1995 360.9  
1996 362.6  
1997 363.8  
1998 366.6  
1999 368.3  9.4  1.9
2000 369.5  
2001 371.0  
2002 373.1  
2003 375.6  
2004 377.4  
2005 379.7  
2006 381.9 13.6 1.9

So it turns out, if you compare the growth from the end of 94 to the end of 99 you get an average annual growth of CO2 in the atmosphere of 1.9 ppm.

If you compare the end of 99 to the end of 06 you get an identical annual atmospheric growth rate of 1.9 ppm.

So the question is: What about that CONSTANT level of growth was UNEXPECTED?


Consider that over that same time frame, the world population increased by ONE BILLION PEOPLE.

ONE BILLION PEOPLE.

ONE BILLION.

ONE THOUSAND MILLION PEOPLE.

Clearly, unlike what the article suggests, the AMOUNT of CO2 per PERSON has been DROPPING.

In 1994, the world population was 5.6 billion and the amount of CO2 in the air was 0.063 ppm per MILLION people.

By 2006, the world population was 6.6 billion and the amount of CO2 in the air had dropped to 0.058 ppm per MILLION people.

Arthur
DavidD
I realy don't think that CO2 is problem if it nothing doing to lungs and humans healf. In fuel can be over dangerouse molecules, but CO2 probably is not important thing. Climat wharm can be natural periodic, can be warm from humans or can be very low that even after 1000 years it's grows up only say 1 kelvin. Dangerouse is in impure and unsave energy if oil and coal and nuclear power are such.
PJParent001
It is nice to be able to quantify things for analysis, however, no analysis is required to see the signs. Since the the size of landmass, atmosphere, and oceans are finite, I don't think emissions ought to be based on population size alone. It has been shown that CO2 is in fact a contributing factor to global warming and to climate change.

adoucette
QUOTE (PJParent001+Nov 15 2007, 08:03 PM)
It is nice to be able to quantify things for analysis, however, no analysis is required to see the signs. Since the the size of landmass, atmosphere, and oceans are finite, I don't think emissions ought to be based on population size alone. It has been shown that CO2 is in fact a contributing factor to global warming and to climate change.

Wll that's wishful thinking, but the point PJ, is one can't expect to make meaningful reductions in Human CO2 production if one can't first stop the rapid expansion of the number of HUMANS.

Arthur


PJParent001
Massively polluting humans?
paul h
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 15 2007, 10:28 PM)
Wll that's wishful thinking, but the point PJ, is one can't expect to make meaningful reductions in Human CO2 production if one can't first stop the rapid expansion of the number of HUMANS.

Arthur

WW 3 should take care of that.
We will have far more problems from politicians than from the GW thingy.
Zarkov
QUOTE
It has been shown that CO2 is in fact a contributing factor to global warming and to climate change.


It has????

Please provide evidence

IMO, it is all conjecture, and totally incorrect.
MisterBelfry


Can you imagine smog free skies? Breathing clean fresh air everyday? I think recent events show the world is moving towards closing the hydrocarbon cycle. Trap. Store. Reprocess. Collectively and globally we can choose greener manufacturing of greener products.


CO2 is very bad

CO is very bad

I thought the USA had cleaned up its act.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Hello Zarkov and all,

With the original poster logic, what hope do we have?

How do you close a cycle that includes the Sun?


Emission free, in my mind, means using Sun power to process a hydrogen on demand system. Transporting hydrogen as fuel sounds like a limted step to me. I'd be interested in what events PJParent001 is talking about. Does anyone think a hundred dollar a barrel of oil will be enough for the world to go "emission" free? No? How about two hundred?

PJParent001 is pretty strick on what emission is allowed. Catalytic converters are probably unsustainable under current usage of precious metals. I wonder if PJParent001 thinks hybrids are an acceptable step to a smog free world? A hydrogen cycle _without_ the carbon for transportation might be possible{as a mix of systems}... but what would the price of oil have to be?


MrB.
Think Boron (or other finely shredded metals?).
Zarkov is "famous" for ZOST. *waves*
PJParent001
Oceans are 'soaking up less CO2'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7053903.stm
PJParent001
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Nov 18 2007, 08:50 AM)
Emission free, in my mind, means using Sun power to process a hydrogen on demand system. Transporting hydrogen as fuel sounds like a limited step to me.

Yup. Solar, wind, and wave power. Hydrogen is good for storing and transporting energy. I can purchase a fan for cheap but a small windmill costs a fortune in comparison. I think governments should subsidize 'cleaner' technologies because currently they're are expensive. That would help reduce demand and dependency on oil.

PJParent001
>How do you close a cycle that includes the Sun?
<Great question. Build an electromagnetic launcher and start sending crap back to the Sun for reprocessing?

>I'd be interested in what events PJParent001 is talking about.
<Scientists and world leaders are actually discussing it and moving towards implementating initiatives towards reducing harmful emissions.

>I wonder if PJParent001 thinks hybrids are an acceptable step to a smog free world?
<Provided they are manufactured 'cleanly', I think they are definitely a step in the right direction and are way better for the environment.

>A hydrogen cycle _without_ the carbon for transportation might be possible{as a mix of systems}... but what would the price of oil have to be?
<Great question. I think the price of oil is so artificial it is ridiculous. Supply and demand they say. Oil is not all bad. Things would sure be different today if it hadn't been for oil and gas and not many of us really want to go back to the horse & buggy days. If the money made on oil was put to reducing oil dependency the price might stabilize.
MisterBelfry

>Oil is not all bad.

Glad to hear it... do you realize now that an automobile is not going to sequester carbon dioxide? It is a clean=green-machine-afaik of the technology-if it releases that molecule along with water. Nature, I surmise does not care where the molecules come from.


Story from BBC NEWS: © BBC MMVII
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/7053903.stm

Published: 2007/10/20 04:50:45 GMT



QUOTE
Results of their 10-year study in the North Atlantic show CO2 uptake halved between the mid-90s and 2000 to 2005.

Scientists believe global warming might get worse if the oceans soak up less of the greenhouse gas.

Researchers said the findings, published in a paper for the Journal of Geophysical Research, were surprising and worrying because there were grounds for believing that, in time, the ocean might become saturated with our emissions.

'Saturated' ocean

BBC environment analyst Roger Harrabin said: "The researchers don't know if the change is due to climate change or to natural variations.

"But they say it is a tremendous surprise and very worrying because there were grounds for believing that in time the ocean might become 'saturated' with our emissions - unable to soak up any more."

He said that would "leave all our emissions to warm the atmosphere".

/Quote



The notion of saturation especially in light of Gaia or my theory of Devolution by means of Supernatural Selection, is idiocy! The little 'scare quotes' should give you a hint that Zarkov in this respect {within his larger oil slick theory which I can't say I fully understand(and dearth of clouds?)} is right but maybe not...

Gaia and Devolution have two different perspectives of the past.
The proponent(s) differ on the need for more carbon dioxide to civilize and lower the Entropy in an open system that includes more and more people.

QUOTE
Oceans are 'soaking up less CO2'
The amount of carbon dioxide being absorbed by the world's oceans has reduced, scientists have said.
University of East Anglia researchers gauged CO2 absorption through more than 90,000 measurements from merchant ships equipped with automatic instruments./Q
The paradigm shift of this has been noted. The rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide is not anthropogenic as much as it is because of the rise of sea surface temperature which opens the system up to the Sun and cosmic rays and recent Arctic melting with water's great insolation power due to lack of timely cloud cover. I see nothing global in this phenomenon so much as universal starting but not finishing with our own solor system. On the USA home front and Earth for which we can do something: Soot would not be good down under or on the glaciers of Greenland. Soot is generally considered a pollutant and regulations are in play for diesel tractor engines to elimanate it. I can't say how far soot travels anyway, This solid is not like the gas carbon dioxide for which only 'crazies' consider a pollutant.

MrB.

MisterBelfry
QUOTE
not like the gas carbon dioxide for which only 'crazies' consider a pollutant.


I suppose it could be said astronauts pollute their environment. They do not need to use the larger biosphere("to clean the air") which should tell you how easy it is. In addition to ground transport, air transport is a consideration. (We can leave sea for another day... a large place to hide or dump trash for a time)

I did some editing and put in bold a comment about a or the rate-determining step involving a layer of atmosphere. The rds is a chemical term i searched for a few days ago and just got around to reading. You also will note that they do not use the word saturation but instead speak of a new equilibrium.


Table 4 (CONCAWE (1997), EC (1996)) shows how the emissions of CO, hydrocarbons, NOx and particulate matter have been reduced in Europe, reflecting the ability of technology to deliver reductions in emissions.
The data show how the largest reductions in emissions have already taken place, with projections that further reductions will be possible by the introduction of on-board diagnostic systems, in-service emissions testing, recall programmes and fuel quality improvements (CONCAWE, 1997). These reductions in petrol and diesel engined vehicle emissions are sufficient to leave little room for improvement by switching to alternative hydrocarbon fuels such as natural gas or vegetable oil.
The only cleaner option, as far as local emissions are concerned, is for a zero-emissions vehicle powered by electricity or hydrogen fuel cells. For such vehicles, it is important to consider, however, the total environmental impact of their use, as the air pollution emissions from remote generation of electricity or production of hydrogen fuel
could possibly exceed the exhaust emissions that a conventional vehicle would produce. The main advantage of zero-emission vehicles is that the emissions can be relocated to where they are further from human receptors, so benefits to human health can be obtained

while other environmental impacts are not reduced (see Fig. 1).


Many decades, they say. You can probably take that with a grain of salt.


When comparing different impacts of aircraft upon the global atmosphere with each other, and with the effect of emissions from other transport sectors and non transport related activity, the most challenging aspect of CO2 is perhaps the time scale over which it has an effect. CO2 is chemically sufficiently unreactive for its dominant removal process to be physical.
Solution in the water of the upper ocean and exchange of carbon between the atmosphere and terrestrial biomass are relatively rapid, with the combined annual flux amounting to 20% of the atmospheric carbon
reservoir mass of 750 GT (Houghton et al., 1996), but these fluxes are bi-directional. The rate determining step for net removal of carbon is mixing from the surface and intermediate ocean to the much larger carbon reservoir of the deep oceans. At the turn of the 21st Century, anthropogenic carbon emissions of 7 to 8 GT per year (including deforestation) are greater than the equilibrium rate of removal at current atmospheric and surface ocean concentrations, such that an
amount of carbon equal to around half the emissions each year are removed and the imbalance results in a steady increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels. Were emissions to remain constant at today’s rate, the atmospheric concentration would reach an equilibrium level about one third higher than today’s value towards the end of the 21st Century.

The global total emissions of CO2 from aviation in 1990 was about 450 million tonnes of carbon (Barrett, 991), which was less than 20% of global road transport emissions and about 3% of total anthropogenic emissions. Furthermore, historical emissions of CO2 from aviation are almost zero going back just a few decades into the mid 20th Century, while around half the carbon dioxide from all anthropogenic sources currently in the atmosphere was emitted before 1980, so the
overwhelming majority of the total is from non-aviation sources.

The small contribution of aviation is, however, increasing, and the small amounts of CO2 being emitted by aircraft now will remain in the air for many decades.


Finally, water vapour from jet engines can also form line-shaped clouds in the free troposphere. The temperature of these clouds is lower than that of Earth’s surface, so their black body radiation is less than what would be emitted from Earth’s surface were the clouds not there, resulting in net warming. This is more significant than the amount of incoming solar radiation reflected, so that overall the contrails have a warming effect on climate at the surface. Usually, contrails evaporate again within minutes or even seconds
such that their impact is negligible, but under certain meteorological
conditions they can be sufficiently persistent [and] a large part of the sky can become obscured continually along a major flight path until weather conditions change many hours or days later. In the stratosphere, contrails are never persistent because of the low ambient relative humidity there, although the water vapour from aircraft is not removed rapidly by precipitation as it is in the troposphere so has a small warming effect on climate because of its greenhouse gas properties.


-Current ability to quantify impact and major sources of uncertainty-

In theory, the impact of aircraft emissions on upper troposphere and lower stratosphere chemistry can be quantified using global models of circulation and chemistry (such as Johnson et al., 1999). However, despite the fact that the reaction mechanisms are now qualitatively understood, quantifying the impact of aircraft emissions remains elusive. There are two main reasons for this:

Firstly, the chemical reaction cycles are complex, as different gas-phase and heterogeneous pathways become more important at different temperatures. Small errors in the predicted mix of different pollutants can propagate via resulting errors in the relative rates of two or more competing reactions to end up with quite unrealistic simulated O3 concentrations. Not only must the chemical composition of the upper troposphere and stratosphere be simulated accurately, but rates of mixing between layers as well as chemistry determines the composition, the temperature needs to be known to determine where heterogeneous processes occur, and the temperature has a large influence on the mixing. The whole process of stratospheric O3 destruction in particular is a highly non-linear catastrophic process.

Secondly, emissions of aircraft in the upper troposphere and stratosphere occur along highly localised flight paths that vary in time and space. The physical size of these is much less than the resolution of the global-scale models that are required to simulate chemistry in the upper troposphere and stratosphere. This problem of scale is added to the fact that the total emissions from aircraft are at least as difficult to quantify as emissions for road traffic are on the ground. It is exacerbated by the fact that other sources of the same pollutants in the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere, such as lightening and mixing from the lower troposphere, are also very difficult to quantify accurately.

Any one of these difficulties would make calculations of the total atmospheric impact of aircraft emissions liable to error.
Combined, they present a very formidable challenge indeed for the science of atmospheric chemistry modelling. The most recent calculations indicate that the effect of aircraft NOx emissions on producing O3 in the upper troposphere / lower stratosphere is greater than the effect of sulphur and soot emissions on destroying O3, except at high latitudes Colvile et al., 2000.



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PJParent001
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Nov 18 2007, 05:44 PM)
do you realize now that an automobile is not going to sequester carbon dioxide

er um... maybe not with todays technology; if I figure out a way, I'll let everybody know

Zarkov
>> How do you close a cycle that includes the Sun?


OK, you know wind, you know solar

well these are OK for limited use

To harness the spin of the Earth is the way some researchers have finally realised..... took too long.....

wave power, tidal dam power, tidal surge power

all are "ever lasting"

Of course the common variable to all these (above and below) is electricity.

The secret that makes them all viable is electrical storage...

Store the electrical potential, and when needed use it or export it

We could have an Earth with unlimited power, with no emissions, no footprint whats so ever.

Unfortunately at this stage in Earth's development there are massive players who have a vested interest in pollution... Big Oil et al

and these players have not only initially unwittingly polluted the world for gain, they have polluted the world with knowledge and set this world on a path to extinction, KNOWINGLY!!! and to develop footprint free energy systems these players are a vicious enemy. They stifle research and close minds.... as shown on this and other forums.

There are ways out of this..
as I said just start thinking

This world is doomed... and unless the public stand up and tear down the walls ... put your lives on the line

Its the children's world BUT

no children will survive to adulthood

! Do y'all want that ???




PJParent001
History clearly shows the rise and fall of civilizations. For one reason or another, they either thrive or don't.

photojack
Read "Collapse" by Jared Diamond. wink.gif
Zarkov
That's it.... y'all just accept that your civilisation will end, just like that !!!!!!
y'all will lay down and die????

well this bunny is not giving up.... there is much to do.
PJParent001
re: That's it.... y'all just accept that your civilisation will end, just like that !!!!!! y'all will lay down and die????

>No. Civilizations evolve and grow. While parts of it decay, other parts grow.

re: well this bunny is not giving up.... there is much to do.

>Good to hear it! Yes there much to do!

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