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DavidD
Quantum mechanic claims that quantum computer must be possible to build, but unfortuntly quantum computers don't working... Quantum mechanic don't have any evidence about completnes and possibility to build quantum computer and that for simulation quantum physics need exponentional computation power. So quantum mechanic is hypothetical theory. Some things in quantum mechanic are proven and some - not. Why those unproven things are included in quantum mechanic theory? Why there is tryes to build quantum computer if there no proff about concept according to which quantum computer must work? Should we try made all things, which we can imagine and which don't match with logic (multiuniverse, exponentional speedup...)?

AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 09:54 AM)
So quantum mechanic is hypothetical theory.

No, some parts of quantum mechanics are hypothetical. The vast majority is not. The CPU in the computer infront of you is designed and built using sections of quantum theory, evidence that those sections work.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 09:54 AM)
Some things in quantum mechanic are proven and some - not.
Absense of proof is not proof of absense. Noone has disproved the existence of God simply because there's no evidence he exists. And given the vast amount of evidence for the majority of quantum mechanics, there's even less reason to deny the other parts of quantum mechanics.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 09:54 AM)
Why those unproven things are included in quantum mechanic theory?
Because they are the invitable result of the axioms of quantum mechanics. QM has a handful of axioms and it predicts thousands of phenomena, most of which have been experimentally verified.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 09:54 AM)
Why there is tryes to build quantum computer if there no proff about concept according to which quantum computer must work?
That's like saying "Why do an experiment to test a theory if there's been no experiment to test the theory?". Building a working quantum computer would be evidence that it works. And they have done. You've been shown evidence of such a thing. I've been to talks, from physicists researching the area, about how they've built quantum computers.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 09:54 AM)
Should we try made all things, which we can imagine and which don't match with logic (multiuniverse, exponentional speedup...)?
Quantum computers are the logical implication of the axioms of quantum mechanics.
DavidD
All now existed quantum computers are unproved. Or they proves holdings on hair.

QUOTE
No, some parts of quantum mechanics are hypothetical. The vast majority is not.

Why don't just remove hypothetical parts from quantum mechanic? Ofcourse quarks also are hypothetical particles, but they more or less fit in with leptons and can somthing explain. But hypothetical part of quantum mechanic I doubt that can somthing explain.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
No, some parts of quantum mechanics are hypothetical. The vast majority is not.

Why don't just remove hypothetical parts from quantum mechanic? Ofcourse quarks also are hypothetical particles, but they more or less fit in with leptons and can somthing explain. But hypothetical part of quantum mechanic I doubt that can somthing explain.
And given the vast amount of evidence for the majority of quantum mechanics, there's even less reason to deny the other parts of quantum mechanics.

So I can take and connect some quantum dragon, which living in atom to quantum mechanic and then claim that it is part of quantum mechanic.

Bonus question: Does exist evidence that Pauli matrices exist?

in page 89: http://www.tau.ac.il/~tsirel/Courses/QuantInf/lect7.pdf
is saying that for simulation in 3 dimensions one quantum particle with 100 point for each dimension need 100^3 bits. And for simulation 5 such particles need 100^15=10^30 bits. For classical computer it is imposible. Now imagine that there is five planets and each planet have one Moon. Each planet has positive charge and each moons has negative charge. And all those 5 planets are enough nearly to each over to atract each over with fields (of plus or minus charge). And for each planet and for each moon is 100 point for each dimension. How much bits need to simulate this 5 planets with 5 Moons? I think that also need about 10^30 bits (or operations...).
BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 09:41 AM)
All now existed quantum computers are unproved. Or they proves holdings on hair.

Wrong.

QUOTE
Why don't just remove hypothetical parts from quantum mechanic?

Because they arise from portions of QM which are known to be true. It's like saying you know all of the technical information about a gun, but don't believe it'll kill someone if you shoot them in the head with it.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Why don't just remove hypothetical parts from quantum mechanic?

Because they arise from portions of QM which are known to be true. It's like saying you know all of the technical information about a gun, but don't believe it'll kill someone if you shoot them in the head with it.

So I can take and connect some quantum dragon, which living in atom to quantum mechanic and then claim that it is part of quantum mechanic.

Nope.

DavidD
Another (unanswered?) question: does electrons entanglement was proved with experiments? Does experimentaly Pauli matrices was verificated seems nobody can answer...
Even if quantum mechanic behave acording quantum theory in some conditions it's still don't mean that is possible to build quantum computer, becouse thermal noise may be stronger...
QUOTE
Wrong.

In quantum computer believing only scientist who working in this field, becouse don't want to lose job and fanatics. Any reasonable proves dosn't exist. NMR QC with 7 qubits get answer after 2^7 tries, instead one try. How it possible to believe in quantum computer after this?
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 03:41 PM)
All now existed quantum computers are unproved. Or they proves holdings on hair.

No, they have actually been built and have been used to compute the solutions to simple problems. You're denying the existence of well documented things.

Have you ever been to Beijing? Do you deny it's existence simply because you haven't seen it with your own eyes?
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 03:41 PM)
Why don't just remove hypothetical parts from quantum mechanic?
Because that's like saying "If we haven't seen it yet, it doesn't exist". When Einstein formulated general relativity there was no evidence for it over Newtonian physics. By your logic, he should have chucked it in the bin because it was all, at the time, hypothetical.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 03:41 PM)
Ofcourse quarks also are hypothetical particles, but they more or less fit in with leptons and can somthing explain.
No, deep inelastic scattering proves that neutrons and protons have point charged within them which couple via a force other than electromagnetism or gravity. Quarks also explain all mesons and baryons. Quarks were a concept developed because experiments said they existed.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 03:41 PM)
But hypothetical part of quantum mechanic I doubt that can somthing explain.
But then you're an idiot.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 03:41 PM)
So I can take and connect some quantum dragon, which living in atom to quantum mechanic and then claim that it is part of quantum mechanic.
No, because this is not an implication which is derivable from the axioms of quantum mechanics.

The results of quantum mechanics cannot be derived from Newtonian physics. Hence you cannot say "Newtonian physics explains quantum mechanics". Just as you cannot say "Quantum mechanics says dragons live in atoms".

Do you even understand how logic works?
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 03:41 PM)
Bonus question: Does exist evidence that Pauli matrices exist?
*sigh*

You and I have already discussed this. Matrices are mathematical objects, they no more exist in reality than d/dx differential operators do. However, they form structures which, when certain physical quantities are assigned to the structures' components, which mirror the behaviour of certain physical systems.

For instance, the spin of electrons around atoms or quarks in hadrons form structures which are seen in Pauli matrices. Angular momentum also forms a structure like the Pauli matrices, ie if J_i is the i'th component of the angular momentum vector J = (J_1,J_2,J_3) then these have the structure [J_i,J_j] = ε_ijk J_k. The Pauli matrices, σ_i, form a structure [σ_i,σ_j] = ε_ijk σ_k. Thus you can describe angular momentum behaviours using the Pauli matrices.

Another example is that the Lorentz transformations in relativity form the Lie group SO(3,1). The Lie algebra of SO(3,1), so(3,1), is the direct product of two copies of the Lie algebra of SU(2), su(2)xsu(2). The generators of su(2) are precisely the Pauli matrices. Thus you can describe space-time transformations using the Pauli matrices.

All of these are experimentally verified, space-time transformations like rotations and boosts transform like that and the spin of electrons in magnetic fields transform like that.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 28 2008, 03:41 PM)
Another (unanswered?) question: does electrons entanglement was proved with experiments? Does experimentaly Pauli matrices was verificated seems nobody can answer...
People can answer, I've answered you in this thread and I've answered you in other threads. You just don't want to listen.

This and the fact you seem to think you understand Pauli matrices but obviously don't, make me feel justified in calling you are complete idiot. A staggering fool. A delusional mor0n.
N O M
Before I vote. Could the OP rephrase the question "Does quantum mechanic is wrong?" please? This time in English.
rmuldavin
BINARIES INHERENTLY UNSTABLE,
TRINARIES INHERIT PLANAR STABILITY
HUMANS INHERIT THE WINDY RHETORIC
[Spin-Knows-A thing or two or more (circa 1531 ADE)]

DavidD
Posted on Today at 8:54 AM:

[Comments:rm-QM claims nothing, people make claims, goal for us humans? Live long, don't suffer, recreate a better World.

"Science" is a discipline at it's best, knowledge and understanding yields personal power, no Doctor StrangeLove necessary, unproven may or may not, or otherwise, show light in dark passageway to future.

How's that?

Just put in new security download today, better or different Apple TextEdit.

This is a test, one, two, three, four, five, six, pick up magnetic sticks, attach magnetic steel balls, construct some basic 3D models, take your time, get the 4D picture?

Qubits, two state; qutrit, three state, so a computer, static states or dynamic, the basic counting unit, bit or qutrit, should be reliable, redundancy helps.

Big industry, computers, it took, I read, some 900 years to identify the dimple in the clay that held the calculii from rolling out of the places to do the Roman Numerals and other recogning calculations, to call that absence by the name zero, "0".

We got time on our side, collectively speaking, if we can work to secure the Planet, and avoid a direct hit by a large comet.]

Best, rmuldavin
===========================

AlphaNumeric
Posted on Today at 1:39 PM: Your last sentence:

{{Quantum computers are the logical implication of the axioms of quantum mechanics.}}

[comments: I'd add the notion that there are many "natural" computers other than the ones we humans have manufactured over more than two ice ages, that is longer than 100 K years (167K yrs last report of human skull found in Egypt).]
===========================
DavidD
Posted on Today at 2:41 PM:

[comments:

Complexity by Mathematic or by Rhetoric, in either case, I would expect some physics, the G-string felt HUGS with the complexing of the number line into a real part ® and imaginary (sq rt minus 1) times (I) gives a two dimensional plane for each dimension. On it we can draw continuous curves in the abstract sense, let me check your link:

[Sorry, my ibook show no or very little rural telephone activity. Is this some slowdown, commerical limit, I doubt it. Maybe the link, ... a few streaks, ...there a spike. At time I think the QM is a taboo subject because either commerically many are investing or want investors and revelations are not given that would be a disadvantage...pass NSApplications!]
===========================
BigDumbWeirdo
Posted on Today at 4:57 PM: I sense your anger, are you a paid detractor, or a farmer on a tractor? Maybe one of those enclosed cabs with wireless Internet, watch that the rows are conformal.

Passing Green House Gas? Apologize for that one. Best, rm
===========================
DavidD
Posted on Today at 5:23 PM: Last week or two I read essay that large linear and circular accelerators have model mathematical makers that fit to collision data, large number of workers contributing to this.

Sure it would be easy to merely assert it is a massive boon doggle, and I assert that the emphasis should be for medical and global environmental cures, the job loss aspect would disappear as we (collectively) could share the benefits of production by automation, giving some truth to the propaganda that automation can reduce costs, not necessary raise profits that likely cause the Capital to be withdrawn and shipped overseas or across borders, actual or cybernetic.

In short, short changed are we working people, remember, the fully retired are also pure abstract mathematical capitalists, a paper check without indexing for inflation will soon be cheap wallpaper.

The sticky buck stops on the walls of tenement halls, with the sounds of silence, if you haven't lost your home by default.

Apologies for light fingered physics.
===========================

Nite, will try to follow this discussion, maybe tomorrow reading more on bit and trits,
best, rm

DavidD
OK, Pauli matrices seems describing spin very well and was experimentaly verified...
But I can't understand how to create entangled electrons or atoms? Entangled photons are created when blue photon of light bunching into crystal and then going out two red photons. Besides, Alphanumeric, you never write about entangled electrons.
"In the1990-2000, several experimentalists showed that entangled photons generated
by non-linear crystals could stay entangled for distances up to 10 km." So photon entanglement is proven, but how about electrons or atoms (or maybe nucleons, or bosons)?
QUOTE
No, they have actually been built and have been used to compute the solutions to simple problems. You're denying the existence of well documented things.

If you more believe in documents than in brain, then you are an idiot. What's a point to claim that they working if they working exponentionaly bad? You probably don't analise what is wroting in those documents, more deeply?

"Since one electron produces several photons instantaneously, such photons are
entangled according to Quantum Mechanics. Being statistically spread in a cone,
entangled photons can hit several samples, swap their entanglement to nuclei or to
atom electrons. Electron accelerators are thus efficient tools for irradiating
thermoluminescent materials where entangled electrons can be stored."
http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0611109
"Recent work with electrons in magnetic materials show that at very low temperature
the electron motion does not stop [14]. Electron spins are entangled in pairs and their
innate bond with one another keep them from freezing, contrary to what classical
physics predicts" - Can't understand how electrons are entangled and what conditions need to make them entangled?
"Furthermore the entangled electrons seems to be resistant to decoherence, that is
the collapse of their entanglement, since samples, co-irradiated several months prior
to the experiments reported here, still gave intense signals. An extremely large
number of single electrons in one crystal are entangled with electrons in the other
crystal and “stored” in relative decoherence free space of impurity traps of the
crystals. It appears that the ion traps are behaving very similarly to QED quantum
cavities." - If Ion trap QC dosn't working, why I should believe in entangled electrons?

This citated make me believe in entangled electrons at 70%:
"The reported experiments are a practical implementation of the entanglement
phenomenon of Quantum Mechanics. Two particles are said to be entangled when
they are emitted simultaneously by the same atomic wave function, for example;
photons emitted by a nucleus, or an electron, and the photons temporarily form an
interactive interference pattern with one another. Such particles are quantumconnected
to each other and interaction with a measurement system by one of them
is “sensed” immediately by the entangled counterpart. Entanglement can be
swapped between two particles and two other particles. Entangled particles, such as
10
electrons, can be “stored” in ion traps or impurities within thermoluminescent crystal
lattices and remain isolated from environmental decoherence effects in the traps for
considerable amounts of time. Electrons can be forced to leave these traps and then
drop down to their respective ground state energies in the crystal lattice by thermal
heating or by stimulated luminescence. An entangled electron dropping out of its ion
trap will go through spin transitions which affect its entangled counterpart electron by
reason of spin conservation laws such that it becomes favorable for the counterpart
electron to exit its trap as a result, emitting some light while dropping to ground state,
at whatever distances the traps are located from one another. Since traps can be
entangled even though present in separate crystal lattices, such samples can be
separated by a large distance and the entangled electrons still be connected until
perturbed by thermal heating of the crystal lattice containing one of the trapped
entangled electron pairs. It appears that the trapped entangled electrons escape only
at discrete and unique temperature values, thus allowing the same glow curve
response (although much less intense than the heated crystal) to be recorded for
each non-heated thermoluminescent crystal when the temperature of the heated
crystal lattice is increased and decreased. This experiment amply demonstrates that:
- Bremsstrahlung gamma ray or X photons are entangled,
- The entangled photons can transfer their entanglement to particles (electrons)
- swapping entanglement between particles is possible and does occur,
- entangled particles can be “stored” as wave functions in ion traps that behave
as QED cavities within thermoluminescent materials,
- environmental decoherence appears extremely feeble within ion traps
containing entangled electrons since the heating and measurement
experiments were conducted over one month after co-irradiation of separate
TLD chips,
- entangled electrons appear to exit the traps only at very discrete and
characteristic temperatures during temperature increase and not in accord
with the Arrhenius equation which dictates that ordinary electron traps empty
as a function of a continuum of release temperatures. This is a significant
finding of this experiment which should provide quantitative clues for the
interaction mechanisms involved in entangled electrons within ion traps
- slave chip (non-heated entangled counterpart crystal) glow curves correlate for
the crystal lattice temperature increasing and then decreasing via cooling
(temperature turn around point) in a very symmetrical and systematic way,
- quantum liaisons can be established between locations situated 8,182 km
apart."

Photonic quantum computer can't be made, becouse even entangled shamngled photons don't want talk to each over, becouse very hard to connect them together in 3D space. QC with atoms or electrons dosn't work, becouse of thermal noise either of imposiblity manipulate electrons in way, which quantum mechanic predict, when electrons are entangled.

kjw
QUOTE
N O M Posted on Today at 11:59 AM  Before I vote. Could the OP rephrase the question "Does quantum mechanic is wrong?" please? This time in English.

klingon, sindarin, hell even icelandic would do
Sir Carnage
I couldn't answer the question nor give you my opinion because i couldn't understand the question

i am quite sure that " why quantum mechanic is wrong?" does not count in the English concept.......

please specify what you mean, and give me a call when you have undertaken an English class!
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 09:09 AM)
but how about electrons or atoms (or maybe nucleons, or bosons)?

Photons are bosons you idiot.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 09:09 AM)
why I should believe in entangled electrons?
So you don't believe in anything for which evidence doesn't exist? Again, absense of proof is not proof of absense.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 09:09 AM)
You probably don't analise what is wroting in those documents, more deeply?
Firstly, I don't 'analise' anything (or anyone)!

Secondly, that's pretty damn rich coming from you. You whine about Pauli matrices but you've never read a thing about them. You don't know any of the maths of them or how they apply to physics. And despite me having explained their physical applications to you previously, you still whine about them.

And as I said, I've been to talks by people who actually have built a small quantum computer, so I believe them over the interpretation of an idiot like you on a topic you know nothing about.

Practical scalability in quantum computers

Explaination of why SOME methods of building a quantum computer suffer from noise but others do not

ow to build a 300 bit, 1 Giga-operation quantum computer
In the abstract it says "using methods for quantum gates that have already been experimentally implemented."

Practical implimentation of quantum computers in 'noisy' systems

Need I go on....
DavidD
Yo, I read that to entangle two atoms or electrons is very hard, becouse they entanglement is through photons so need everwhere mirrors around and this sounds shitly. And thermal noise will make deconherence faster than photons through mirrors will do them job. Also entangled(?) atoms talking through phonons (high frenquency sound), what is very strange. All this problems with entanglement of two atoms or electrons sounds very imposible. So I think 50% that maybe entangled elctrons was been demostrated.

Pauli matrices invented for describing spin (of electron or prtoton, neutron) and they have nothing to do with entanglement. I only don't know does pauli matrices describing spin in 3D or not, but they work only with single particle and this means, that entanglement between two atoms or electrons wasn't doen. On the over hand entanglement between two photons was maded, but quantum computer with photons somewhy can't be builded (I am not sure, this is becouse need exponentionaly many gates or becouse need that photon interacts more with each over than just that they be entangled...).

QUOTE
And as I said, I've been to talks by people who actually have built a small quantum computer, so I believe them over the interpretation of an idiot like you on a topic you know nothing about.

Do you talking about D-wave? If yes then just wait few months until they will demonstrate they unworking (unsuccessful - exponentionaly slower than should be) 512 qubits quantum computer. If no, then those people are just very big optimist about very weak proofs...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And as I said, I've been to talks by people who actually have built a small quantum computer, so I believe them over the interpretation of an idiot like you on a topic you know nothing about.

Do you talking about D-wave? If yes then just wait few months until they will demonstrate they unworking (unsuccessful - exponentionaly slower than should be) 512 qubits quantum computer. If no, then those people are just very big optimist about very weak proofs...

Practical scalability in quantum computers

Explaination of why SOME methods of building a quantum computer suffer from noise but others do not

ow to build a 300 bit, 1 Giga-operation quantum computer
In the abstract it says "using methods for quantum gates that have already been experimentally implemented."

Practical implimentation of quantum computers in 'noisy' systems

Only dreams, but no working quantum computer.
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
And thermal noise will make deconherence faster than photons through mirrors will do them job.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0512084

How to build systems which don't suffer from bad decoherence. And one of the papers I linked to describes how to impliment systems which have error correction on a level with physically attainable errors.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
Also entangled(?) atoms talking through phonons (high frenquency sound), what is very strange.
Why is it strange? Phonons are a well understood phenomena. They are experimentally verified.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
Pauli matrices invented for describing spin
No, su(2) was described centuries before Pauli came along. Cartan did a complete enumeration of simple Lie algebras long before Pauli worked out a physical application for su(2).

Pauli got his name attatched to them because he took the mathematical concept of su(2) and realised it had physical applications. Just like Lorentz realised that SO(3,1) was the symmetry group of Minkowski space-time.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
I only don't know does pauli matrices describing spin in 3D or not, but they work only with single particle
No, Pauli matrices work for multi-particle systems. I even said so in my last post when I said they described hadronic systems. Look up meson multiplets. I've even explained them to you before.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
but quantum computer with photons somewhy can't be builded (I am not sure, this is becouse need exponentionaly many gates or becouse need that photon interacts more with each over than just that they be entangled...).
Still not grasping it, are you? Photon based quantum computers have been built. You seem to think that because BIG (ie lots of bits) quantum computers haven't been built that ANY number of bits is impossible. Wrong! Quantum computers with bits less than 8 have been built. It's known as 'proof of concept'. The concept of quantum computers works, experiments prove it. Getting large scale quantum computing is different.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
If no, then those people are just very big optimist about very weak proofs...
Proving it works isn't a weak proof.

It's like saying "A big fire isn't hot" because you've only ever seen small fires, which you accept are hot.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
Only dreams, but no working quantum computer.
Did you miss the one which said "using methods for quantum gates that have already been experimentally implemented"? Did you bother to look at any of them or did you just reply without even thinking about it?

You're obviously not interested in physics, you whine about concepts you don't understand and you refuse to look at evidence. Why do you even bother coming to this website if all you're interested in is hearing yourself talk? Do us all a favour and stop posting. You can just sit at home and speak outloud. At least then you're the only person who has to be exposed to your ignorance.
DavidD
QUOTE
Proving it works isn't a weak proof.

It's like saying "A big fire isn't hot" because you've only ever seen small fires, which you accept are hot.

I say this, just becouse to made more easy to you understand, that they proffs is TOTALY BULLSHIT!!!
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Proving it works isn't a weak proof.

It's like saying "A big fire isn't hot" because you've only ever seen small fires, which you accept are hot.

I say this, just becouse to made more easy to you understand, that they proffs is TOTALY BULLSHIT!!!
Did you miss the one which said "using methods for quantum gates that have already been experimentally implemented"

But not proven. If 58% or somthing working instead classical 50% it don't proves that those gates working. And if gates implemented then what stoping them from building quantum computer with 2 qubits?
QUOTE
Photon based quantum computers have been built.

Show me PDF, please.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Photon based quantum computers have been built.

Show me PDF, please.
You seem to think that because BIG (ie lots of bits) quantum computers haven't been built that ANY number of bits is impossible.

NO, wasn't build even 2 qubits quantum computer.
QUOTE
Quantum computers with bits less than 8 have been built.

With exponentionaly bad qubits.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Quantum computers with bits less than 8 have been built.

With exponentionaly bad qubits.
It's known as 'proof of concept'. The concept of quantum computers works, experiments prove it.

Experiments nothing had prove. Press - yes.

Alphanumeric, who you are idealist or materialist? If you are idealist then you probably believe in Manyworlds, exponentional speedup, or somthing like this, many dimensions and that our world isn't classical, but quantum or whatever. I am materialist and believing that our universe is 3 dimensional and working accoring classical physic (with smallest particles like in my theory, for example). So I don't believing in exponentional speed-up becouse it's violates laws of classical physic.

Does there is proves about superposition of excided and ground state of atom?
Does there is nontrivial (90-100% match with experiment) prove about entangled atoms or electrons?
Phonons indeed can't create superposition or entanglement.

Quantum mechanic is indeed noisy and thus shrodinger equations are wrong about exponentional wave function, which describing quantum particles and they interaction.
rmuldavin
Second Order Webester for noun "natural":

{{natural, noun,

1. an idiot; a fool; one born without the usual powers of reason or understanding.

2. a person who is or seems to be naturallly expert. [Collog.]

3. a thing that is, or promises to be immediately and remarkably successful [Collog]

4. in music...[-rm: white keys only]

5. a native, an original inhabitant [Obs.]

6. a gift of nature; a natural quality. [Obs.]

[additional comments: may have mentioned the IDIOT word used in North Easter Europe, a film, the "Village Idiot" was the Rabi.

Why or why did this "IDIOT" word get these definitions, Webster's defines it from French and Greek origins.

idio-, [Gr. idio- from idios, one's own.] a combining form meaning one's own, personal distinct, and in idiocrasy, idiograph.

My political guess? Uniqueness in presentation of self in everyday life, a word associated with birth of child outside sanctioned marriage, maybe more often out of poverty, or to natives living on lands invaded by males with relatively advanced weapons.

In short, being with nature, however the dice were rolled, like "idiot savant", or idiot servant".

The deck is stacked for the powerful materially, but often even they are playing without a full deck, but don't know it.

You made my day, chatters, right on, common radicals (comrades) maybe our tolerances are at low levels to feeling like an IDIOT, which is somewhere a part of myself?

Best, back to reading, from rmuldavin
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
I say this, just becouse to made more easy to you understand, that they proffs is TOTALY BULLSHIT!!!

They turn on a machine and it computes the solution to a problem. How is that 'totally bullshit' ?
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
But not proven.
They turn on a machine and it computes the solution to a problem. How is that 'not proven' ?
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
Show me PDF, please.
http://www.news.uiuc.edu/NEWS/06/0222quantum.html
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
NO, wasn't build even 2 qubits quantum computer.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/13/dwave_quantum/page2.html

8 bit.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
With exponentionaly bad qubits.
Do you even understand what that means? It means you can get quantum computers with a very small number of bits to work, but if you add more bits the problem with noise rapidly increases. It doesn't mean 2 bits is impossible.

And as my links to PUBLISHED PAPERS demonstrated, there are ways around that. That's what research is about, finding solutions to problems.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
Experiments nothing had prove
They turn on a machine and it computes the solution to a problem. How is that 'not proven' ?
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
Alphanumeric, who you are idealist or materialist?
I'm a realist. If a quantum computer solves a problem then it proves quantum computers are real. This has happened, thus quantum computers are real.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
I am materialist and believing that our universe is 3 dimensional and working accoring classical physic (with smallest particles like in my theory, for example). So I don't believing in exponentional speed-up becouse it's violates laws of classical physic.
Then you're an idiot. Classical mechanics CANNOT even explain the atom. There's huge numbers of phenomena it cannot explain. Anything, EVERYTHING, to do with atoms and subatomic particles. Thus classical physics is insufficent to explain reality. It only takes 1 experiment to disprove classical mechanics. We have thousands!
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
Does there is proves about superposition of excided and ground state of atom?
Yes, quantum mechanics explains emission spectra of atoms. Classical mechanics cannot.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
Does there is nontrivial (90-100% match with experiment) prove about entangled atoms or electrons?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3449-triple-electron-entanglement-boosts-quantum-computing.html

Find me a published paper which demonstrates classical mechanics can describe super conductors, electroweak decay or atoms. They don't exist because classical mechanics can't.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
Phonons indeed can't create superposition or entanglement.
Phonons exhibit quantum properties, they are quantised sound oscillations. Find me a published paper showing classical mechanics can accurately explain phonons.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 01:51 PM)
Quantum mechanic is indeed noisy and thus shrodinger equations are wrong about exponentional wave function, which describing quantum particles and they interaction.
Do you know any quantum mechanics? Do you know anything about the maths of the Schrodinger equation? Your very question demonstrates you don't even understand what papers talking about 'noise' refer to.

I help teach this stuff to university students. Just yesterday I marked more than three dozen 2nd year student scripts on solutions to the Schrodinger equation in certain potentials. Do you think you can answer simple homework questions on it?

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/examples/B9b.pdf

Answer a few of those. I bet you can't. I bet you make up a pathetic excuse. I bet you're full of ****.
DavidD
QUOTE

This quantum computer is simulator. Did you know that it means? It means that if even such computer would be builded for it need exponentionaly many gates, becouse it's not true quantum computer but quantum computer SIMULATOR:
http://research.physics.uiuc.edu/QI/Photon...-jmo-47-257.pdf
It's similar to this citate: "Limitations

The problem with this optical implementation of the search algorithm is that the number of optical paths equals number of elements in database. It would be prohibitive to build a large search engine by this method. This is the scalability problem. For this reason it is called a simulator of a quantum computer. See the section Qubit Systems for different approaches that avoid this problem."
http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~s55086/qucomp/sim.html

About D-wave quantum computer I don't want talk, becouse better wait and if they will not show they quantum computer with 10% speed-up of theorietical result (theoreticaly must be 100% speed-up), then they quantum computer is crap. But I can promise you that you will not see working 1000 qubits quantum computer in your live. You can say, that it will be maked after 100 years. Ok it's your choise to believe and I somthere heard it: isn't it nuclear fusion?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
optical: http://www.news.uiuc.edu/NEWS/06/0222quantum.html

This quantum computer is simulator. Did you know that it means? It means that if even such computer would be builded for it need exponentionaly many gates, becouse it's not true quantum computer but quantum computer SIMULATOR:
http://research.physics.uiuc.edu/QI/Photon...-jmo-47-257.pdf
It's similar to this citate: "Limitations

The problem with this optical implementation of the search algorithm is that the number of optical paths equals number of elements in database. It would be prohibitive to build a large search engine by this method. This is the scalability problem. For this reason it is called a simulator of a quantum computer. See the section Qubit Systems for different approaches that avoid this problem."
http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~s55086/qucomp/sim.html

About D-wave quantum computer I don't want talk, becouse better wait and if they will not show they quantum computer with 10% speed-up of theorietical result (theoreticaly must be 100% speed-up), then they quantum computer is crap. But I can promise you that you will not see working 1000 qubits quantum computer in your live. You can say, that it will be maked after 100 years. Ok it's your choise to believe and I somthere heard it: isn't it nuclear fusion?

They turn on a machine and it computes the solution to a problem. How is that 'totally bullshit' ?

Quantum random number generator also can give you solution. And it only based on superposition. So what? Does it mean that it is quantum computer?
QUOTE
They turn on a machine and it computes the solution to a problem. How is that 'not proven' ?

Probabilistic machine or quantum random generator also can compute solution. How it is not the quantum computer?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
They turn on a machine and it computes the solution to a problem. How is that 'not proven' ?

Probabilistic machine or quantum random generator also can compute solution. How it is not the quantum computer?

Then you're an idiot. Classical mechanics CANNOT even explain the atom. There's huge numbers of phenomena it cannot explain. Anything, EVERYTHING, to do with atoms and subatomic particles. Thus classical physics is insufficent to explain reality. It only takes 1 experiment to disprove classical mechanics. We have thousands!

Do you know why Classical mechanic can't eplain atom? Becouse atoms is very dificult classical object, and predict it classical structure is very hard or imposible even for supercomputer. So atom is classical (it consist of from smallest particles in my theory). Non-locality is also classical (and can be explained (not proved) by my theory).
QUOTE
Yes, quantum mechanics explains emission spectra of atoms. Classical mechanics cannot.

How it relates with superposition? Superposition is such thing, which have interference (like single photon in Matrch-Zender interferometer): http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~s55086/qucomp/qucompApplet.html
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Yes, quantum mechanics explains emission spectra of atoms. Classical mechanics cannot.

How it relates with superposition? Superposition is such thing, which have interference (like single photon in Matrch-Zender interferometer): http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~s55086/qucomp/qucompApplet.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3449-triple-electron-entanglement-boosts-quantum-computing.html

Dreams.


I don't know all quantum mechanical simbols and your quantum mechanical knowleges are under exponentional wave function understanding.
I don't understand quantum logic in your excercises.
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
This quantum computer is simulator.

No, it's a ****ing quantum computer. The link says so. You're arguing with people who build the sodding things!
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~s55086/qucomp/sim.html
So you accept that source but not the many I provide? Besides, that's semantics. A quantum computer with 2 bits is a quantum computer. It's not very practical, but it's a quantum computer.

Explain how that computer is not a quantum computer.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
About D-wave quantum computer I don't want talk, becouse better wait and if they will not show they quantum computer with 10% speed-up of theorietical result (theoreticaly must be 100% speed-up), then they quantum computer is crap. But I can promise you that you will not see working 1000 qubits quantum computer in your live. You can say, that it will be maked after 100 years. Ok it's your choise to believe and I somthere heard it: isn't it nuclear fusion?
In other words you don't want to accept it proves you wrong. Who said that a computer had to have 1000 bits? You said that even a 2 bit quantum computer hadn't been made, it was impossible. I've provided links that prove otherwise.

You are wrong!
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
Quantum random number generator also can give you solution. And it only based on superposition. So what? Does it mean that it is quantum computer?
Except that those computers I linked to dont generate random numbers, they run an algorithm to compute a solution. Just like normal computers run algorithms, except they do it using a quantum process.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
Do you know why Classical mechanic can't eplain atom? Becouse atoms is very dificult classical object, and predict it classical structure is very hard or imposible even for supercomputer. So atom is classical (it consist of from smallest particles in my theory).
I know why the atom isn't classical, you obviously don't.

Classically, any accelerating charge will radiate energy away. This is a standard result in classical electromagnetism. The electron is a charged particle and it goes in an orbit around the nucleus, so it's being accelerated (since it isn't moving in a straight line). Thus, classically, it should radiate energy and spiral into the nucleus. But it doesn't. Classical mechanics is stumped.

So it's nothing to do with being a 'difficult classical object', it's a very simple object, the problem is it's wrong. You don't need a supercomputer, you just need to know that accelerating a charge implies, classically, the radiating of energy.

Anyone whose studied any electromagnetism or read anything about the development of quantum mechanics will know this. I learnt about it when I was 15 and read a pop science book on quantum mechanics.

So the atom isn't classical. Prove me wrong. Prove me with 'your theory', I bet you don't have a working model.
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
How it relates with superposition? Superposition is such thing, which have interference (like single photon in Matrch-Zender interferometer): http://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~s55086/qucomp/qucompApplet.html
Emission spectra relate to the transit of the electron between different orbital levels of an atom, including the ground state. The expression for the electron is a superposition of states whose time evolution is governed by the Hamiltonian of the system. It's a standard homework question to consider the state of the electron when a magnetic field is applied (there's the Pauli matrices again!).
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
Dreams.l
How is it a dream when they've actually done it? Did they dream they did the experiment and it worked?!

Are you so desperate to avoid saying "I am wrong" that you think everyone imagined these experiments?
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 08:03 PM)
I don't know all quantum mechanical simbols and your quantum mechanical knowleges are under exponentional wave function understanding.
I don't understand quantum logic in your excercises.
So you actually know nothing about the working of the Schrodinger equation? What a suprise.

How about questions 4 and 5 from the next sheet? They relate to the Pauli matrices. I bet you can't do any of them either.

Do you admit you cannot do any physics relating to the Pauli matrices or the Schrodinger equation?
googleplex
Quantum Electro Dynamics QED is so far the most accurate physics we have when compared against observation. The mathematics of it are close to being perfect. To say that Quantum theory is bunk is quite simply nuts unless you can replace it with something even better. Some quantum theory is not perfect however in time it will be improved.
To me Physics is about finding better mathematical models to something that can be tested by experiment. We are hindered currently by our mathematics tools and our level of experimentation.
My thanks to alphanumeric for his limitless patience in addressing the wild rantings of the un-informed.
The un-informed need to get their ducks in a row. It has never been easier to learn physics. Just get a pizza and beer and watch on your PC.
I had to sit through hours of University lectures on awful wooden bench seats at inconvenient times (i.e. the morning). Then go on a myriad of trips to the Library to find information. By comparison today it is blindingly easy. Even if you don't watch the watch the MIT Physics lecture series, at least watch Richard Feynman's lectures on QED.
Edward 3
Hi AlphaNumeric,
I have read many of your posts and it is clear that you know your physics. All the more reason why I was surprised to read in your last post above a justification
( that may not be the correct word, but please bear with me ) of quantum mechanics based on the solar system atomic model - and you say that classical mechanics is stumped because it cannot explain this model. Am I missing something fundamental - coz if this is the best QM has to offer we might as well go back and have a very critical look at how it all began.
yours, very stumped
edward 3
barakn
QUOTE (Edward 3+Feb 29 2008, 08:58 PM)
All the more reason why I was surprised to read in your last post above a justification
( that may not be the correct word, but please bear with me ) of quantum mechanics based on the solar system atomic model - and you say that classical mechanics is stumped because it cannot explain this model. Am I missing something fundamental -

What? Did you read the same last post that I read? Nowhere did I see mention of the solar system atomic model.
AlphaNumeric
The atom (ie experiments which showed the well known structure of the atom, electrons going around a heavy central nucleus) demonstrates that classical mechanics is insufficent when it comes to describing nature. Quantum mechanics was then developed in order to deal with this void produced by experiments like Rutherford's gold leaf & alpha ray experiment. It explains why electrons can go around the nucleus without radiating energy.

Quantum mechanics was then developed to explain everything else which involves non-relativistic atomic processes. Then quantum mechanics was melded with relativity to give us quantum field theory, which can describe systems which involve a changing number of particles, which lead to the most verified and accurate theories in human history, such as QED.

There's so much more than just the model of the atom which gives validation to quantum mechanics. Everything from the last 100 years which involves the very small validates quantum mechanics. The photoelectric effect, emission spectra and the Rutherford experiment were the big three which started it all off. Then things like the discovery of the neutron and positron and development of nuclear weapons/reactors just helped cement it. Then there's everything like muons, taus, W and Z bosons and other hadrons.

The evidence is staggering.
mott.carl
THE quantum theory is not wrong,but is incomplete,because get not explain several variables that appear when placed by spacetime continuum.in special,in the universe in four-dimensions.then need more spatial dimensions,to explain the
spontaneous symmetry breaking,as so the CP,that corresponds for violation of T,then appear the spacetime,discontinuos,with the noncommutative property,that
contain the breaks of the invariance of lorentz,therefore have the uncertainly principle,explaining the non-locality and locality phenomenons.
DavidD
QUOTE
Explain how that computer is not a quantum computer.

I explain it already. Quantum computer SIMULATOR isn't quantum computer, becouse if you want made it with 1000 qubits then for you need 2^1000 gates. So quantum computer simulator (like in java link) don't giving speed-up (but only using march zender interferometer experiment properties with single photon).

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Explain how that computer is not a quantum computer.

I explain it already. Quantum computer SIMULATOR isn't quantum computer, becouse if you want made it with 1000 qubits then for you need 2^1000 gates. So quantum computer simulator (like in java link) don't giving speed-up (but only using march zender interferometer experiment properties with single photon).

In other words you don't want to accept it proves you wrong. Who said that a computer had to have 1000 bits? You said that even a 2 bit quantum computer hadn't been made, it was impossible. I've provided links that prove otherwise.

You are wrong!

You see, I don't believe in this bullcrap, so I 100% will believe if I will see working 1000 qubit quantum computer, which in some tasks is faster than supercomputer.

QUOTE
I know why the atom isn't classical, you obviously don't.

Classically, any accelerating charge will radiate energy away. This is a standard result in classical electromagnetism. The electron is a charged particle and it goes in an orbit around the nucleus, so it's being accelerated (since it isn't moving in a straight line). Thus, classically, it should radiate energy and spiral into the nucleus. But it doesn't. Classical mechanics is stumped.

So it's nothing to do with being a 'difficult classical object', it's a very simple object, the problem is it's wrong. You don't need a supercomputer, you just need to know that accelerating a charge implies, classically, the radiating of energy.

Anyone whose studied any electromagnetism or read anything about the development of quantum mechanics will know this. I learnt about it when I was 15 and read a pop science book on quantum mechanics.

So the atom isn't classical. Prove me wrong. Prove me with 'your theory', I bet you don't have a working model.

I can't prove with my theory that atom is classical, but it doesn't mean that atom isn't classical. And this is whole proccess in my theory and you can't just analize single atom, without all universe... Your brain just don't understand whose all classical processes...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I know why the atom isn't classical, you obviously don't.

Classically, any accelerating charge will radiate energy away. This is a standard result in classical electromagnetism. The electron is a charged particle and it goes in an orbit around the nucleus, so it's being accelerated (since it isn't moving in a straight line). Thus, classically, it should radiate energy and spiral into the nucleus. But it doesn't. Classical mechanics is stumped.

So it's nothing to do with being a 'difficult classical object', it's a very simple object, the problem is it's wrong. You don't need a supercomputer, you just need to know that accelerating a charge implies, classically, the radiating of energy.

Anyone whose studied any electromagnetism or read anything about the development of quantum mechanics will know this. I learnt about it when I was 15 and read a pop science book on quantum mechanics.

So the atom isn't classical. Prove me wrong. Prove me with 'your theory', I bet you don't have a working model.

I can't prove with my theory that atom is classical, but it doesn't mean that atom isn't classical. And this is whole proccess in my theory and you can't just analize single atom, without all universe... Your brain just don't understand whose all classical processes...

Emission spectra relate to the transit of the electron between different orbital levels of an atom, including the ground state. The expression for the electron is a superposition of states whose time evolution is governed by the Hamiltonian of the system. It's a standard homework question to consider the state of the electron when a magnetic field is applied (there's the Pauli matrices again!).

So it's just classical probabilities, and there is no negative amplitude and interference...

QUOTE
How is it a dream when they've actually done it? Did they dream they did the experiment and it worked?!

Are you so desperate to avoid saying "I am wrong" that you think everyone imagined these experiments?

No, it's dreams. http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=291

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How is it a dream when they've actually done it? Did they dream they did the experiment and it worked?!

Are you so desperate to avoid saying "I am wrong" that you think everyone imagined these experiments?

No, it's dreams. http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=291

Do you admit you cannot do any physics relating to the Pauli matrices or the Schrodinger equation?

At least your examples I can't solve and don't have time to try solve. I don't know much about such manipulations. But I don't admit, what quantum computer exist and that it will ever exist.

Alphanumeric, you still are an idealist. Do you believing that our universe isn't classical like was saying Feynman? Do your are Feynman clo(u)ne? Even George Rose from D-wave was writed sentence, that our universe probably is classical, somthing like this: "Maybe classical physics is somthing more than quantum mechanic?". So what is our universe? Quantum or manyworld or many dimensions according to you? Becouse if our universe is classical then quantum computer is imposible.

Unanswered questions:
Quantum entanglement between two atoms or electrons wasn't proven.
Superposition of two atom energy levels wasn't proven.
Superposition of electron or nucleon spin wasn't proven.
Maybe first need proof this things before trying to made working quantum computer?

Alphanumeric, can you give me excercises with exponentional wave function?

BTW, in terms "classical" I mean only clearly classical meachanic like Niutons laws, without gravity, electromagnetism. My smallest particles universe model is clearly classical, becouse don't include any gravity or electromagnetism or charge and based on geometrical spherical equal size particles... Gravity and electromagnetism and over fields and laws is result of smallest particles laws.
Crankoid
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 06:07 AM)
Alphanumeric, can you give me excercises with exponentional wave function?

I feel he'd rather give you pain with a hammer..... idiot!



dry.gif
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
I explain it already. Quantum computer SIMULATOR isn't quantum computer, becouse if you want made it with 1000 qubits then for you need 2^1000 gates. So quantum computer simulator (like in java link) don't giving speed-up (but only using march zender interferometer experiment properties with single photon).

Now you're moving the goal posts. You claimed that even a 2 bit quantum computer wasn't possible. I've proven you wrong. Now you're saying you won't accept it till you see a 1000 bit quantum computer.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
I can't prove with my theory that atom is classical
What a shocker!
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
And this is whole proccess in my theory and you can't just analize single atom, without all universe
Yes, you can.

That's like saying if I throw a ball into the air I cannot predict where it will land without knowing the entire universe's state. Complete BS.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
our brain just don't understand whose all classical processes...
Do you honestly believe that? I've just explained to you a classical concept you couldn't understand.

Let's see you answer some of the questions in the example sheets here. That's another course I've done.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
So it's just classical probabilities, and there is no negative amplitude and interference...
No, it's not 'classical probabilities' because it's describing the electron as a wave function, a 'smeared out' state around the nucleus. Don't you know anything about basic quantum mechanics?

No, that much is clear.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
No, it's dreams. http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=291
Wow, someone's blog. That obviously is better than published papers which describe experiments where quantum computers work!

You're trying to tell people that what they have seen with their own eyes isn't true. It's like me saying to you "No, you're name is Paul", and refusing to accept you're called David, even if you showed me your birth certificate.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
At least your examples I can't solve and don't have time to try solve. I don't know much about such manipulations.
Even if I gave you a month and you did nothing but read about quantum mechanics I'm certain you couldn't do those questions.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
But I don't admit, what quantum computer exist and that it will ever exist.
I didn't ask that, I asked for you to admit you know nothing about the Schrodinger equation and Pauli matrices.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
Alphanumeric, you still are an idealist.
No, I'm a rationalist. Classical mechanics has failed to explain phenomena. Thus, we're forced to expand our understanding.

You are an idealist, you hope that everything in the universe conforms to a neat little box of systems. You don't understand quantum mechanics therefore you think it's wrong. Like all the other idiots on this site.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
Do your are Feynman clo(u)ne?
Is English not your first language? If not, fair enough. If so, you're an idiot. Again.

I'm not a Feynman clone, I'm just being rational.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
. So what is our universe? Quantum or manyworld or many dimensions according to you?
Those are entirely seperate concepts.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
Becouse if our universe is classical then quantum computer is imposible.?
If the world was classical, atoms would be impossible.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
Unanswered questions:
Quantum entanglement between two atoms or electrons wasn't proven.
Superposition of two atom energy levels wasn't proven.
Superposition of electron or nucleon spin wasn't proven.
Maybe first need proof this things before trying to made working quantum computer?
The fact you haven't bother looking for such experiments and even if you came across it wouldn't understand it doesn't mean they don't exist.

ALL of quantum systems have been ACCURATELY modelled using the notions of field theory and superpositions. QED explains all electromagnetic interactions and it's built on superposition. The description of the nucleus is built upon superposition and it's accurate enough to allow us to build nuclear reactors.

If it's subatomic, we've described it using quantum mechanics and one of the founding axioms of quantum mechanics is superposition.

Look at question 8. It gives a completely impossible result, in the eyes of classical mechanics, which has been derived using superposition. That effect has been experimentally verified. Superposition is justified.

Can you answer that question? I bet you can't.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
Alphanumeric, can you give me excercises with exponentional wave function?
So you admit you don't understand the symbols in the questions I've already asked you but you think you'll have better luck with other ones?

Besides, I've already asked you one : Question 6
That's really easy, you don't even need to know any quantum mechanics! How about another :
Question 6

I bet you can't do either of them.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 07:07 AM)
BTW, in terms "classical" I mean only clearly classical meachanic like Niutons laws, without gravity, electromagnetism. My smallest particles universe model is clearly classical, becouse don't include any gravity or electromagnetism or charge and based on geometrical spherical equal size particles... Gravity and electromagnetism and over fields and laws is result of smallest particles laws.
You don't have a theory, you cannot model anything. You just have a delusion.

Besides, relativity, electromagnetism and electrodynamics are classical, since they are not quantised.
DavidD
QUOTE
Now you're moving the goal posts. You claimed that even a 2 bit quantum computer wasn't possible. I've proven you wrong. Now you're saying you won't accept it till you see a 1000 bit quantum computer.

Are you so stupid? This is not quantum computer but quantum computer simulator, which don't giving 2x speed up! For NORMAL quantum computer is nessasary ENTANGLEMENT!
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Now you're moving the goal posts. You claimed that even a 2 bit quantum computer wasn't possible. I've proven you wrong. Now you're saying you won't accept it till you see a 1000 bit quantum computer.

Are you so stupid? This is not quantum computer but quantum computer simulator, which don't giving 2x speed up! For NORMAL quantum computer is nessasary ENTANGLEMENT!
That's like saying if I throw a ball into the air I cannot predict where it will land without knowing the entire universe's state. Complete BS.

No, is not the same. Becouse you don't know how smallest particles interacting. And possible that my theory can work only in conditions, when number of smallest particles is infinity.
QUOTE
If the world was classical, atoms would be impossible.

Dissagree, becouse atom without electrodinamic is like fish without water, but it doesn't mean, that fish and water don't consist of atoms...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If the world was classical, atoms would be impossible.

Dissagree, becouse atom without electrodinamic is like fish without water, but it doesn't mean, that fish and water don't consist of atoms...
The fact you haven't bother looking for such experiments and even if you came across it wouldn't understand it doesn't mean they don't exist.

I don't found on internet, where entanglement between atoms or electrons match 90-100% with theory.

So you mean, that fermion spin or atom excitation level can have negative amplitude? But what is a point? For example photon pass through beam spliter and one path flying in one direction and another in another direction. Say first path bounce into atom and he become in superposition of excided and ground state, right? Or atom just absorb photon and there is 50% probability that it will be excided or not, if atom intitaily was in ground state? Anyway this superposition and entanglement between atoms and electrons sounds silly. Becouse atoms or electrons can be entangled only through photons.

If you means e^x exponentional wave function then it's strange, becouse with e^x is not hard to manipulate in math, so how it can give exponentional speedup?
I don't have quantum mechanic book (only have about electrodynamic), and don't want now solve photoefect excercise...

Can you prove that my theory is wrong? Can you prove that atom and all universe can't consist of smallest particles?
Can you prove that our universe can't work with classical mechanic?
Edward 3
Hi AlphaNumeric,
I do not wish to labour the point but this is how I see it:
1. The solar system model of the atom was developed.
2. This model failed to stand up to the scrutiny of classical mechanics.
3. Quantum Mechanics was developed to help explain and support the model.
4. The model is no longer considered to be an accurate description of the atom.
Conclusion : QM was developed to support a discredited atomic model and such a rocky foundation must therefore raise some questions about the theory itself.
Question: Would QM have developed in the way it has if we had today´s understanding of atomic structure?

I agree that there is a great deal of evidence to support QM but the theory also has a few problems. I sometimes wonder - and this is mere speculation - if QM might not be comparable to Newtonian Gravity - a very good approximation but not the whole story.
best regards
edward 3
DavidD
Maybe atom model is not proper, becouse around are another atoms or electrons or photons in another words, everwhere around atom is noise and so atom can't be described properly. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Wow, someone's blog. That obviously is better than published papers which describe experiments where quantum computers work!

Dwave had chance to prove they quantum computer, but don't proved or don't want to prove or wasn't able to check does they quantum computer is quantum.
rmuldavin
RANDOM THOUGHTS
LOCAL NETWORKS
MORE OFTEN
THAN KNOTS
ACCELERATIONS
EXPLAINATIONS


DavidD
Posted on Yesterday at 7:03 PM: [rm-pass]

AlphaNumeric
Posted on Yesterday at 7:35 PM: [rm-a quote:

{{Classically, any accelerating charge will radiate energy away. This is a standard result in classical electromagnetism. The electron is a charged particle and it goes in an orbit around the nucleus, so it's being accelerated (since it isn't moving in a straight line). Thus, classically, it should radiate energy and spiral into the nucleus. But it doesn't. Classical mechanics is stumped.}}]

[comments-rm: I'm not getting the picture, but, ... look in the sky, it's a bird, no a plain, no... its G-stringman, able to fund-a-mental small and tall static electric charges, with a single bond [credit to comedy shows], Michelson did it with an oil drop suspended in earth's Gravity field.

Michleson and Morely, did it with Earth's accelerating rotational field, I worked at the Mohave Desert, CA where that experiment took place.

Yes, ... don't let circular reasoning be less than classical, QED is demonstrated.

"Stumped", yes, many appear to be. The "electron" must be an IDIOT in the full sense of the word. A "NATURAL"!

We, of course, or, off course, are much more, let the SPIRIT guide us, beside us, with the light from night above.

The small are below us, in us, all around us. Above us the Eagle, no longer in circulation, the Silver is gone, Ho Silver and other Currencies, electrons included.

The Load-Arranger is here [that's to the comics], you can bank on it, but don't end up in the mor(t)gage without a home.

Bitter-sweet me off my feet, consistency leaves me incomplete, complexity has its problems, IDIOTs may too, what about us few?

String along between two near singularities, abstract as they be, infinite Mass covering no volume, that's too dense to comprehend.

Bend a string-a-long-explanation (sale), join our warring profit-tearing nation, praise the Prophets of Greed if you want, they will not succeed, for "scientific" was to be "democratic", words openly stated and debated, truth is timely, get the picture graphic?

Around the "atom" rotates another atom, encased in a tomb unbroken, is it a negative surrounding a positive core, and is it any wonder, light before the thunder, Been Frank had the key, jarred in glass and glowing, printing press he did use, his position of latter born in a family of near a dozen, he was driven by steroids in part, the French found out he was classically "smart", it's only a deadly game some would call a sport.

Shaggy dog wanders around the circle, moves ahead helical, held by HUGS a conjecture, g-strings attached to each and every thing, like love and care DNA measures the past in each hair tip to follicle.

Problem is human limitations themselves changing to survive, the price measured by feelings for those who died, at least I hope this may be true, for many more than given to our view, so the message is the media between me and you.

The physics of two passing particles, conservation of the energies and mass, starting from the "point of impact", center of mass (com), thus the question might be this:

Do the photons radiate from (com) randomly radially (comranrad), or more often towards other local masses.

Are we here more local? Are our comments random, connected to our inner thoughts?

More on physics, best, rmuldavin
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 1 2008, 12:11 PM)
Conclusion : QM was developed to support a discredited atomic model and such a rocky foundation must therefore raise some questions about the theory itself.

No, the QM model of the atom is not "It's a mini solar system", it was the theory which discredited that! It sees the electrons as delocalising and forming shells of probability distributions in particular shapes (the standard solutions to the Associate Legendre Polynomials).

The classical model is only taught to school children as a simplistic analogy. Unfortunately people like DavidD can't get past that.
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 1 2008, 12:11 PM)
if QM might not be comparable to Newtonian Gravity - a very good approximation but not the whole story.
It's non-relativistic so that much is obvious. Quantum field theory is better. But then because they don't include gravity they too are an approximation.

Everything we have is an 'effective theory' on some level or other because you have to assume to existence or non-existence of certain effects. When those assumptions break down, so do the theories.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 1 2008, 12:11 PM)
Can you prove that my theory is wrong?.
You don't have a theory, you have an incoherent mess built on ignorance which cannot model anything.
DavidD
IF atom model is so good then nobody would make alternative models http://www.greatians.com/physics/mass/atom%20model.htm .
QUOTE
The classical model is only taught to school children as a simplistic analogy. Unfortunately people like DavidD can't get past that.

You don't understand about that I am talking. Anyway this don't realates with quantum computers...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The classical model is only taught to school children as a simplistic analogy. Unfortunately people like DavidD can't get past that.

You don't understand about that I am talking. Anyway this don't realates with quantum computers...
You don't have a theory, you have an incoherent mess built on ignorance which cannot model anything.

Yes it can't model anything, but it's don't means that our world can't be such like predict my theory.
Alphanumeric, do you can solve this schriodinger equation of electron spining about nuclear?
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...mgqua/hyds6.gif


Now existing theory don't explaining WHAT is magnetic field or electric field or what is gravitation or what is lepton or what is quark. It's like few centures ago nobody was know of what consist human, nobody then know of what everything consist. And then they found that human body consist of cells, cells consist of molecules, molecules of atoms, atoms of nuclear and electrons, nuclear of protons and neutrons, nucleons of hypothetical quarks. So Your alphanumeric claiming about that atoms consist of electrons and quarks is the same stupid as claim, that human body consist of cells, but don't explain of what consist cells. So you believe only in things which are known now, but don't trying to explain those things. My smallest balls theory prety good explaining how photon flying like wave, magnetic and electric fields are waves through my smallest particles. Positive and negative charges atrac each over becouse they somehow very dificult creating potencial pit and there is only geometrical particles and very dificult math, which not for human and your brain. Gravity is also somthing similar to fields between positive and negative charges or magnets. I just don't believe that our world base is some silly laws of quarks or leptons or gravitation or invisdible unexplained magnetic field, which is not explained and is the same as magic now.

Entanglement between photons can't be succesfuly manipulated to harnes exponentional speed up. Entanglement between atoms or electrons also can be harnesed, becouse need that they would talk through photons or phonons and this is very stupid and maybe even imposible. Becouse if there is two spins and pne of spins had change his state, then another probably shoudl to, but another is prety far so he doing bulsshitly weak work and thermal motion this work making even more bullshitly. So you can't cheat with thermal motions, becouse they are unpredicted. And why spins must have more than 2 superposition states?
Zarabtul
Because if they gave you all the answers all the time you'd actually be able to catch up.
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 10:00 AM)
IF atom model is so good then nobody would make alternative models http://www.greatians.com/physics/mass/atom%20model.htm .

There are always cranks, like you, trying to explain the atom with classical physics. They have all failed.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 10:00 AM)
ou don't understand about that I am talking.
And you don't understand what I'm talking about, physics.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 10:00 AM)
Yes it can't model anything
Then you don't have a theory. A theory, in science, is a model which has been verified by experiment. Yours hasn't. It cannot predict anything which can then be measured and tested.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 10:00 AM)
Alphanumeric, do you can solve this schriodinger equation of electron spining about nuclear?
That is just the Schrodinger equation in spherical coordinates. When given the expression, U®, for the potential produced by the nucleus (ie the Coulomb force), yes, it can be solved. Infact, it's solved in terms of the Assosicaed Legendre Polynomials, which give the electron shell orbital shapes which we see in experiments.

Just use seperation of variables. Do you know how to do that?
DavidD
Does this sriodinger equation describes atom or electron? If yes, then does it is hard to simulate such object on computer? Or if I put 100 such objects, do it will be imposible to simulate for supercomputer? Of course I can't solve this equation and even can't imagine what must be answer (how must looks like). Maybe you can show me answer of this equation?
QUOTE
And you don't understand what I'm talking about, physics.

Maybe you right my theory is not very physical, but prety philosophycal. Physical theory must somthing explain, my theory can explain only on intuitive level and not on logical. I heard that this schriodinger equation is very simplified (becouse in another case imposible solve it), is it true?
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And you don't understand what I'm talking about, physics.

Maybe you right my theory is not very physical, but prety philosophycal. Physical theory must somthing explain, my theory can explain only on intuitive level and not on logical. I heard that this schriodinger equation is very simplified (becouse in another case imposible solve it), is it true?
There are always cranks, like you, trying to explain the atom with classical physics.

I don't trying explain atom in "such" classical way...
Anyway, supose that quantum computer is imposible ( I believe 100% that it is, but you don't and it is your choise), does then all sriodinger equations are wrong? IF not, then which ones wrong?
DavidD
http://www2.kutl.kyushu-u.ac.jp/seminar/Mi...dinger_eq_E.htm
For example I want to solve schroedinger equation and for me need to find partial derivative of:
(d^2 e^{i(px-Et)/h})/(dx^2)
How to find it or how to find
d^2(cos(px/h-Et/h))/dx^2
?
cos(A-cool.gif=cosA*cosB+sinA*sinB=cos(px/h-Et/h)=cos(px/h)*cos(Et/h)+sin(px/h)*sin(Et/h).
d(cos(px/h-Et/h))/dx=-sin(px/h)*(p/h)+cos(px/h)*(p/h).
d^2(cos(px/h-Et/h))/dx^2=-cos(px/h)*(p/h)^2-sin(px/h)*(p/h)^2.

Do I am on right way by solving (1 dimensional (interesting what it can mean?)) schroedinger equation?


"Second is the use of the quantum
optics toolbox to experimentally demonstrate and investigate noise suppression at
the 0.7 and, more generally, n:m conductance anomalies in quantum point contacts."
http://www.stanford.edu/group/yamamotogrou...s/WDOthesis.pdf
I don't get it. It is 70% noise or 70% signal? Anyway with such "entanglement I don't think that possible quantum computation. So why they better first don't get better entanglement before making quantum computer?
rmuldavin
DavidD
Posted on Today at 9:00 AM: You end your post with this question:

{{And why spins must have more than 2 superposition states?}}

[Comments: When I take the Dehmelt triplet lepton conjecture, the electron was chosen by he in his Nobel Prize Paper (circa 1989?), the electron is modeled as a flat equal lateral triangle (felt) and the three vertices are each 1/3 electron charged, some 10 billion times the mass of the electron we observe at a distance, that is, some 1/1830th of the proton mass at a distance.

And to this his implied further conjectured of the triplet as an original "Black Hole" like initial starting "Cosmonium", a triplet, each of the vertices dividing into three similar triplets, and my visual imagination and some sketching would then give the result that today all "fuzzy dot masses" are connected to each other by strings, threads, cables, ... string theory models.

The Higgs Universal Gravity Strings (HUGS) connect all levels of felts in two and three dimensions with time used as a way of showing transitions at any one level to another, from Fermi to glaxatic to foamy universes(?), expanding, contracting, oscillating, and mixing, for eternity.

So, perhaps your summary ending sentence can be answered this way:

Each vertex of any level of division from the Cosmonium has three spinning dot masses (triplets) that have gyro-electro-magnets "masses" (gemms) spinning such that the magnet fields tend to place themselves in "space" equidistant from each other.

I assume for now these three gemms have some wobble room in time and space.

I assume the combo of mass and charge to be entangled such that they are not able to be separated.

Thus the answer to your last question may be this:

The electron as a lepton is a triplet and each vertex can combine with other triplets in at least two ways, first as two wafer triplets separated such that the vertex of three axis have an averaged attractional force, and second, that the triplet forms (sub-quarks) can form polyhedral as 3-D models for molecular, atomic, and subatomic relatively stable masses.

This is fuzzy logic nearing uncertainty, but may answer your question, and hopefull inviting more questions. You may have that talent for a Natural IDIOT (Individual Discerning Information Over Time). Patience is the Virtue of Time.

Best, rmuldavin
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 02:49 PM)
Does this sriodinger equation describes atom or electron? If yes, then does it is hard to simulate such object on computer? Or if I put 100 such objects, do it will be imposible to simulate for supercomputer? Of course I can't solve this equation and even can't imagine what must be answer (how must looks like). Maybe you can show me answer of this equation?

It describes the evolution of a wave function. Non-relativistic particles can be described, be they atoms or electrons. The equation isn't what they solve in quantum computers. Do you know how computers work, using bits? Quantum computers calculate in a similar manner but with superpositioned bits.

Solving the Schrodinger equation is quite easy in many cases. I help teach 2nd year students quantum mechanics and even though it's their first course in quantum mechanics, they still know how to solve the Schrodinger equation for various potentials. The electron orbitals, as I've said to you several times, are a common one to ask students.

Computers can solve even difficult ones, using usual methods for solving differential equations. I've computed the solution to more difficult differential equations than the Schrodinger equation on a computer. Even in my 2nd year, I wrote a program which solved the Schrodinger equation for a particular potential as part of my coursework.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_quant...tical_solutions

That's a list of various systems which can be solved exactly, often so easily students can do it.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 02:49 PM)
Maybe you right my theory is not very physical, but prety philosophycal. Physical theory must somthing explain, my theory can explain only on intuitive level and not on logical.
If all you have is philosophy and you cannot predict or even try to predict phenomena than you don't have science, you have religion.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 02:49 PM)
I heard that this schriodinger equation is very simplified (becouse in another case imposible solve it), is it true?
Different systems have different potentials. Some can be solved, and easily, other cannot be solved analytically (using mathematical equations) but can be solved to high accuracy by computers. Even classical ones like the PC you're infront of right now.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 02:49 PM)
Anyway, supose that quantum computer is imposible ( I believe 100% that it is, but you don't and it is your choise), does then all sriodinger equations are wrong? IF not, then which ones wrong?
You appear to not even know how the Schrodinger equation and quantum computers are related. They do not try to solve the Schrodinger equation!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_a...dinger_equation

Read it.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 2 2008, 02:49 PM)
Do I am on right way by solving (1 dimensional (interesting what it can mean?)) schroedinger equation?
No. You appear to not even know calculus. You fail to be able to do what 17 year olds are expected to understand.

DavidD
Why then there are claims that quantum computers will be exponentionaly faster than classical computers in simulation quantum mechanic? If schoedinger equations isn't hard for classical computer then what is?
You don't answer in my question about 100 electrons or atoms simulation on classical computer. I read that for simulation 100 quantum particles (or electron spins...) need 2^100=10^30 bits memory. You probably don't learn much about exponentional hard simulations and equations? Anyway where in practice can be used those schroedinger equations?

What will be mechanic if you admit like acksiom, that to create entangled photons from diferent photon sources is imposible and that imposible to entangle atoms, electrons and nucleons? Probably schrodinger equations will not change much and maybe in recycled bin will be put only quantum computing theory?

For me need examples how need to solve schrodinger equations, but doubt that they are on internet.
Why they are so abstract instead real values x, t... Electrodinamic also prety abstract... At least to understand electrodinamic don't need to understand formulas, becouse electromagnetism can understand even scoolchildren...
PJParent001
How many times do you need to be told? Quantum computers are a proven fact. BTW, have you not considered becoming a translator because it seems like you used AI to translate your postings. And why are you so doubtful about the development of Quantum Information Technology? Sorry rat brain not silicon made of, and no want rat in computer, me! biggrin.gif

DavidD
QUOTE
Quantum computers are a proven fact.

Show me where is writen that quantum computer existation is proven fact.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Quantum computers are a proven fact.

Show me where is writen that quantum computer existation is proven fact.
And why are you so doubtful about the development of Quantum Information Technology?

I doubful only about quantum computers. About quantum cryptography I am not doubful.

If I good understand entanglement (non-locality) can be proved with two diferent ways. And in one way quantum mechanicaly answer is 0.75 and classicaly is 0.5 and diferent is 0.75-0.5=0.25. And in another case 0.85-0.75=0.1. So I read that electrons entanglement was 70% noisy. So in first case 0.25=100% and x=70%; x=70%*0.25/100%=0.175.
so then in first case 0.75-0.175=0.575. So only 7.5% is diferent from classical case; unprecise experiment?
In second case 0.1=100% and x=70%; x=70%*0.1/100%=0.07. So then 0.85-0.07=0.78. So in second entanglement cheking case, only 3% is diferent from classical behave, without entanglement, probabilisticly; so those 0.03 is mabe measuring errors?
So my conclusion that even badly entanglement between electrons can be not proved.
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM)
Why then there are claims that quantum computers will be exponentionaly faster than classical computers in simulation quantum mechanic? If schoedinger equations isn't hard for classical computer then what is?

The Schrodinger equation is a differential equation. There are plenty of differential equations in all areas of physics. Solving the Schrodinger equation is comparible in difficult, computer wise, to solving the classical wave equation. It's definitely easier than the classical non-linear wave equation known as the KdV equation.

The measure of the complexity of solving a differential equation is not what it's applied to but it's mathematical complexity. There's a lot of horrifically complex classical differential equations. The Einstein Field Equations are classical and until very recently a nightmare to solve.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM)
You don't answer in my question about 100 electrons or atoms simulation on classical computer. I read that for simulation 100 quantum particles (or electron spins...) need 2^100=10^30 bits memory.
No, for every qubit you can simulate 2 classical bits. Hence if you have N qubits, you can simulate 2^N classical bits. That's what's so great about quantum computers. For a classical computer, to hold 1024 bits of information, you need 1024 bits of memory. A quantum computer only needs 10, since 2^10 = 1024.

Quantum computers need exponentially less memory!
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM)
You probably don't learn much about exponentional hard simulations and equations?
You're a ****ing idiot. Time and again I've proven I know vastly more than you about all areas of physics and maths and you still come out with such crap.

Do you take anti-psychotic medication? Perhaps you should.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM)
Anyway where in practice can be used those schroedinger equations?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_a...dinger_equation

I provided that link in my last post. You obviously aren't even bothering to read my posts! Why are you so stupid?
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM)
For me need examples how need to solve schrodinger equations, but doubt that they are on internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_quant...tical_solutions

Again, I posted that link in my last post. You'll find ways to solve the Schrodinger equation for various potentials in thousands of books! And many more lecture notes from university courses.

If you don't think the solutions exist, then it proves you don't read anything about this topic.

Again, why are you so stupid?
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM)
Why they are so abstract instead real values x, t.
They are only 'abstract' because you've made no attempt to learn anything related to them. To someone whose spent a bit of time doing quantum mechanics and learning how to do differentiation (which your posts prove you haven't), then it's quite straight forward.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 3 2008, 11:20 AM)
Electrodinamic also prety abstract... At least to understand electrodinamic don't need to understand formulas, becouse electromagnetism can understand even scoolchildren...
That's wrong. Electrodynamics is actually quite complicated in plenty of places.

Besides, they teach the concepts of quantum mechanics to school children now too.
Morris
QUOTE (DavidD+Feb 29 2008, 10:53 AM)
Yo, I read that to entangle two atoms or electrons is very hard, becouse they entanglement is through photons so need everwhere mirrors around and this sounds shitly.

This is such a bizarre forum...
DavidD
QUOTE
No, for every qubit you can simulate 2 classical bits. Hence if you have N qubits, you can simulate 2^N classical bits. That's what's so great about quantum computers. For a classical computer, to hold 1024 bits of information, you need 1024 bits of memory. A quantum computer only needs 10, since 2^10 = 1024.

You still don't answer to my question why to simulate quantum mechanic is so hard? Why to simulate quantum mechanic is so hard? Why for simulation say one molecule of 100 atoms need probably more than 2^100=10^30 bits on HDD?

I don't see how those srodinger equations was solved on wikipedia. I only see equation and solution.

How much computation power or bits need for simulation say pliumbum atom? And does physics analizing how properly describe, simulate two pliumbum or over atoms, which connected with each over?
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 4 2008, 12:41 PM)
You still don't answer to my question why to simulate quantum mechanic is so hard? Why to simulate quantum mechanic is so hard? Why for simulation say one molecule of 100 atoms need probably more than 2^100=10^30 bits on HDD?

Because if you have 100 bits, the number of possible states they can take up is 2^100. Thus ON A CLASSICAL COMPUTER you need a huge hard drive and memory system. The great thing is a quantum computer can store all 2^100 combinations on just 100 bits!

So the 'exponential memory' you keep saying is not a down side for quantum computers, it's a down side for classical!
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 4 2008, 12:41 PM)
I don't see how those srodinger equations was solved on wikipedia. I only see equation and solution.
But that's because you don't understand differentiation. YOU don't know how to solve differential equations and so you blame others for YOUR ignorance!

Why are you so stupid?
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 4 2008, 12:41 PM)
How much computation power or bits need for simulation say pliumbum atom? And does physics analizing how properly describe, simulate two pliumbum or over atoms, which connected with each over?
I've no idea. Depends on your program your system. It's like saying "How many bits are needed to store a jpeg picture?". Depends on the picture and your method of processing.

Quantum computers do not simulate atoms, they don't solve the Schrodinger equation! It's like saying "Does a car solve the Newtonian equations of motion?". No, it's described by such equations, it doesn't solve them!
DavidD
QUOTE
I've no idea. Depends on your program your system. It's like saying "How many bits are needed to store a jpeg picture?". Depends on the picture and your method of processing.

Quantum computers do not simulate atoms, they don't solve the Schrodinger equation! It's like saying "Does a car solve the Newtonian equations of motion?". No, it's described by such equations, it doesn't solve them!

Then you don't know much about quantum computers, becouse quantum computers makers believes, that molecules simulation or proteins folding simulation will be very important task for quantum computer.
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 4 2008, 08:01 PM)
Then you don't know much about quantum computers, becouse quantum computers makers believes, that molecules simulation or proteins folding simulation will be very important task for quantum computer.

Yes, quantum computers can be put to solve the Schrodinger equation, but then they can be put to solve any differential equation. Protein folding happens to have important applications, and the chemical bonds are expressed by some quantum interaction.

But you seem to be implying you think quantum computers work by always solving the Schrodinger equation, because they are 'quantum'. Nonsense. They are described by the Schrodinger equation, they don't solve it unless they are asked to by their programming. The same applies to normal, classical, computers. They can (and do) solve the Schrodinger equation but only when someone writes a program to make them do it.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between a function and a working principle.

The Schrodinger equation models quantum computers. Quantum computers need very little memory to store a lot of information as a result. When a quantum computer processes something, it isn't solving the Schrodinger equation, it is processes like a classical computer but it's input state is in superposition and so it can process ALL possible inputs at once, not one after the other as classical computers do.

You are repeatedly demonstrating you don't know anything about quantum computers. You repeatedly demonstrate that you don't know about quantum mechanics, particularly the Schrodinger equation and the Pauli matrices. You are whining that you don't understand them but you blame others for your ignorance.
DavidD
I think you don't understand general idea. Quantum computer based is on quantum mechanic (according to theory), so that's why QC must be exponentional faster by simulating quantum physics and protein folding. Quantum computer must simulate quantum mechanic in linear time, while classical computer inexponentional time. Do you see diferent? So it's means that with classical computer you can't truly describe molecule with 100 atoms, becouse molecule is quantum mechanical. And for simulation quantum mechanic need quantum mechanic power (according to quantum mechanic theory) - the quantum computer.

BTW, why many universe interpretation is physical and my theory is not pshysical?

Which equation need to PROPERLY describe quantum mechanic (and to properly to simulate quantum mechanic: protein folding, etc)? How they looks? Or such equation are known only for profesionals and quantum inforamtion theoretics?
rmuldavin
COUNTING ON FINGERS
CLASS STILL LINGERS
CALL IT WARFARE,
CALL IT WELFARE,
STILL BE FAIR
FEEDBACK'S TIME
BETTER TO RHYME
RESONATING A CRIME?

Lord Vladimir
Posted on Today at 7:44 AM: Oh Lord, glad you joined us, mistake to mention class, hope that is British Humor, which my wife and I watch often as we can, TV and DVD.

A BIT is two states, say zero and unity, "0" and "1", four bits in a row, each triggers the next, that is 2^4th power and 16 states: 2, 4, 8, 16.

To count, like on our fingers (assuming ten), the output of some BITS can be FEDBACK to other BITS to "jump ahead" six BITS, to count ten inputs to the four serially connected BITS.

A DECODING MATRIX to give ten counting states from the four BITS.

Classical counting, quantum counting, it is an abstraction, based on the stability of the device to act in two states only.

Five BITS if connected in a circle oscillate. RESONATE.

But to count input pulses must be GATED at the speed of the input at each of the five BIT unit.

Thus the 5-BIT circle will resonate depending on the gating.

Maybe our brains have such gating, the neurons, and that gives us more BITS than the USA several Trillion National Debt.

For the brain to connect to our fingers, it is costs only one BIT, a 20% increase. Add the savings since the DECODING MARTIX is direct.

Would not our own nervous systems evolve gated resonators to economize, in Class or not?

If we here join together, and use the Internet or other forms of human communications, that maybe gives six billions of many trillions of BITS, as a mathematical PRODUCT, and maybe more if the GATING can itself be at the quantum bit variable levels, add noise (our own Nave thoughts) to be fair, and that is a wonder of wonders.

Am I working a "number" on you?

Welcome to functional Chaos,

Best, rmuldavin
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 08:38 AM)
I think you don't understand general idea.

[removed] Again and again and again I have proven I understand quantum mechanics. And a damn sight better than you do. Right now, literally right now, I have 3 dozen 2nd year quantum mechanics homework sheets I mark each week sitting on my desk. [removed] I do a PhD in quantum field theory based work!

What about you? You cannot even differentiate e^(ix) properly!
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 08:38 AM)
Quantum computer based is on quantum mechanic (according to theory),
That doesn't mean that to model any system them must solve the Schrodinger equation.

We model quantum computers using quantum mechanics. Quantum computers model other systems by solving whatever dynamical equations describe that system. If they are modelling air flow around a plane, they would solve the Navier Stokes equations. If they model black holes, they solve the Einstein Field Equations. If they model a ball being thrown into the air, they solve F=ma. If they model a quantum system then they solve the Schrodinger equation. But not for any other system.

Grasp the difference?
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 08:38 AM)
Quantum computer must simulate quantum mechanic in linear time, while classical computer inexponentional time.
Quantum computers can solve ANY multivariable system quickly, it's not just for quantum systems. The point is that if you have a lot of different initial conditions, you have to, classically, run through them one at a time. A quantum computer does them all at once. Doesn't matter if it's modelling a lot of Newtonian systems or a lot of relativistic systems or a lot of wave systems, it processes them all at once because it's input bits are in a state of non-determination.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 08:38 AM)
So it's means that with classical computer you can't truly describe molecule with 100 atoms, becouse molecule is quantum mechanical.
No!! It doesn't!!!

You don't grasp what that "100 atom systems" mean. It doesn't mean "We can now model a molecule with 100 atoms, we couldn't before", we could. Protein folding can be done on current computers. What the 100 atoms compared to 2^100 means that if you consider the 100 atoms and all possible spin states (so 0000..0000 then 000...0001 then 000....0010 then 000...00011 then 000...0100 etc all the way up to 111...111, so there's 2^100 possible inputs) then a classical computer has to consider each input one after the other. A quantum computer just considers the 100 bits, that's it. So it's computation time increases with N, a classical computer goes like the exponential 2^N.

That is what the exponential computation time versus linear computation time means. Quantum computers are MUCH faster and need much less memory.

Modelling protein folding still needs a lot of processing power, you still have to solve the equations of motion which describe the inter-atomic bonds of the protein, but a quantum computer can consider a great many protein structures at once, rather than one at a time like a classical computer. To run a single simulation might not actually be faster but the point is that a quantum computer's single simulation does perhaps billions of different setups!

Classical computers can solve quantum equations. I have seen one do it, using a quantum computer algorithm to factorise composite numbers. The problem is that the wiring configuration is huge, while a quantum computer does it with photons.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 08:38 AM)
And for simulation quantum mechanic need quantum mechanic power (according to quantum mechanic theory) - the quantum computer.
This is obviously wrong. Otherwise, how have we been able to solve quantum mechanical systems in the past? We know how electrons move in atoms, we know how positrons and electrons interact, we know how quarks interact in the nucleus, all before quantum computers. We worked those out by hand or with the help of classical computers!

As I said, to a computer it's just solving differential equations. There's plenty of classical differential equations which are MUCH worse than quantum differential equations. Modelling air flow around planes is staggeringly difficult. Solving the Schrodinger equation for the hydrogen atom is childs play.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 08:38 AM)
BTW, why many universe interpretation is physical and my theory is not pshysical?
Where is your 'theory'? What physical systems can it model?
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 08:38 AM)
Which equation need to PROPERLY describe quantum mechanic (and to properly to simulate quantum mechanic: protein folding, etc)? How they looks? Or such equation are known only for profesionals and quantum inforamtion theoretics?
Open any of the tens of thousand of textbooks on quantum mechanics.

You wouldn't know them even if you saw them, you didn't even recognise solutions to the Schrodinger equation after I linked you to them. Twice!

Time and again you demonstrate you don't understand quantum mechanics or quantum computers and yet you're retarded enough to then say I don't understand them, despite the fact I am constantly correcting you, demonstrating I know quantum mechanics and showing you for the idiot you so painfully are.

By the way, is English your first language? If so, do you have a job? I can't imagine even McDonalds employing someone with your obvious lack of coherent thought.
yor_on
Soon to come to your backyard:)
and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson_junction
Were using quantum effects every day.
rmuldavin
CAST OR BEAN COUNTING,
PLEASE USE SOME CAUTION,
LIFE YOU SAVE, YOUR OWN?

AlphaNumeric
Posted on Today at 1:41 PM: Alpha Numb to Alpha Numeral, maybe our inputs here ont physorg forum are in a "state of non-determination", if I get your "drift", continental or random:

{{A quantum computer does them all at once. Doesn't matter if it's modelling a lot of Newtonian systems or a lot of relativistic systems or a lot of wave systems, it processes them all at once because it's input bits are in a state of non-determination.}} *** {{A quantum computer does them all at once. Doesn't matter if it's modelling a lot of Newtonian systems or a lot of relativistic systems or a lot of wave systems, it processes them all at once because it's input bits are in a state of non-determination.}}

[comments: Your work of evaluating students work is central, but I imagine like myself, this physorg forum is a way of working out some thoughts (and feelings).

If so, I am doing the same, now working on reading Michigan Tax Tribunal Decision by an apparently talented Tribunal Member, and found on the Internet a 131page decision involving a co-op housing property and the methods of evaluation of that property by this Tribunal Member, one of some seven members.

You ending: {{By the way, is English your first language? If so, do you have a job? I can't imagine even McDonalds employing someone with your obvious lack of coherent thought.}} may be part of a Class Room distinction?

On with the physics!

Ok, "black box" (bb) input (in) and output (out), bb has internal states (is), that for the many possible combinations of the inputs, if known, effect the outputs in the sense we are trying to design such a machine to produce a output product (op).

Whether flipping burgers or binaries, varied or routine, if a human is at the desk or grill, sooner or later if the scale of operations is large enough, economics will prevail, or wither, or oscillate (resession is here again).

Physics at UC Berkeley when I was there in the sixties working an MSEE, taking premed, and finished first year of law school with a D in contracts by logic not case law, the Physics was in the letters and science. So I assume physics is broader than engineering.

I'd back off a bit or byte on castigating your students (assuming here we are all students wanting to learn).

True global communications does need a game theory approach, and your "non-determintion" word is appropriate. It is the empty game board, the rules, like Chess are a combination of undoable routines (due to time between moves is large than computing power at this time, but "Big Blue" does better each year, does it no?0.

Watching TV and DVD and having taught East and West Oakland, CA in the sixites middle school, focusing on the student as a person, and class as a tribal organization, is my approximate advice.

Remember "Two step backward, one step forward in a new direction, with this change, you is the square root of negative five away from a mistake".

Is this complex? Just don't use Castor Bean to count, or wash your hands and use a breathing filter, and bathe often.

Best, rmuldavin
DavidD
QUOTE
What about you? You cannot even differentiate e^(ix) properly!

Don't kiding. (e^{ix})'=(cosx+isinx)'=-sinx+icosx=i*e^{ix}.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
What about you? You cannot even differentiate e^(ix) properly!

Don't kiding. (e^{ix})'=(cosx+isinx)'=-sinx+icosx=i*e^{ix}.
That doesn't mean that to model any system them must solve the Schrodinger equation.

We model quantum computers using quantum mechanics. Quantum computers model other systems by solving whatever dynamical equations describe that system. If they are modelling air flow around a plane, they would solve the Navier Stokes equations. If they model black holes, they solve the Einstein Field Equations. If they model a ball being thrown into the air, they solve F=ma. If they model a quantum system then they solve the Schrodinger equation. But not for any other system.

Grasp the difference?

Quantum computer shrodinger equation will not model (simulate) faster. Nor any over classical equation. You see theopretics who building quantum computer, think that very important point in quantum mechanic is entanglement (and superposition) and thus for properly simulation quantum mechanic (molecules, (?)atoms(?)) need quantum computer... Whose equation for properly simulation molecules probably don't exist in physics textbooks. So it's means, that physics like you don't know how properly describe two atoms, becouse they don't familiar with entanglement between those atoms.
QUOTE
Quantum computers can solve ANY multivariable system quickly, it's not just for quantum systems. The point is that if you have a lot of different initial conditions, you have to, classically, run through them one at a time. A quantum computer does them all at once. Doesn't matter if it's modelling a lot of Newtonian systems or a lot of relativistic systems or a lot of wave systems, it processes them all at once because it's input bits are in a state of non-determination.

Here you obliously showing, that nothing know about quantum algorithms. Quantum computer newton physics WILL NOT simulate faster! Quantum computer exponentionaly faster can simulate quantum mechanic and factorise big number. And quadraticaly faster can solve some optimization-combinatorical problems like traveling problem, etc. That's it. No more quantum algorithms exist (only those 3).

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Quantum computers can solve ANY multivariable system quickly, it's not just for quantum systems. The point is that if you have a lot of different initial conditions, you have to, classically, run through them one at a time. A quantum computer does them all at once. Doesn't matter if it's modelling a lot of Newtonian systems or a lot of relativistic systems or a lot of wave systems, it processes them all at once because it's input bits are in a state of non-determination.

Here you obliously showing, that nothing know about quantum algorithms. Quantum computer newton physics WILL NOT simulate faster! Quantum computer exponentionaly faster can simulate quantum mechanic and factorise big number. And quadraticaly faster can solve some optimization-combinatorical problems like traveling problem, etc. That's it. No more quantum algorithms exist (only those 3).

You don't grasp what that "100 atom systems" mean. It doesn't mean "We can now model a molecule with 100 atoms, we couldn't before", we could. Protein folding can be done on current computers. What the 100 atoms compared to 2^100 means that if you consider the 100 atoms and all possible spin states (so 0000..0000 then 000...0001 then 000....0010 then 000...00011 then 000...0100 etc all the way up to 111...111, so there's 2^100 possible inputs) then a classical computer has to consider each input one after the other. A quantum computer just considers the 100 bits, that's it. So it's computation time increases with N, a classical computer goes like the exponential 2^N.

Don't make me laugh. If protein folding nothing has with entanglement or combinatorical optimization problems, then protein folding will not be faster on quantum computer than on classical. D-wave claims that protein folding on quantum computer will be exponentionaly faster http://dwave.wordpress.com/2006/12/25/prot...g-the-hp-model/ , so then it's can't be Grover's algorithm (combinatorical algorithm), and thus it's means that protein folding is equal to quantum mechanic simulation and equal to Quantum Furier Transform.

QUOTE
The problem is that the wiring configuration is huge, while a quantum computer does it with photons.

ye, ye... About Two qubits photon quantum computer even wasn't claims... Except one, which working without entanglement and which you thinking is normal universal quantum computer. Ask any quantum computing theoretic about this quantum computer with single photon superposition without entanglemtn and you will hear answer that such QC isn't even a quantum computer...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The problem is that the wiring configuration is huge, while a quantum computer does it with photons.

ye, ye... About Two qubits photon quantum computer even wasn't claims... Except one, which working without entanglement and which you thinking is normal universal quantum computer. Ask any quantum computing theoretic about this quantum computer with single photon superposition without entanglemtn and you will hear answer that such QC isn't even a quantum computer...
Where is your 'theory'? What physical systems can it model?

What physical system can model many word theory? My theory predicting waves through smallest balls and non-locality, becouse balls can transmit with infinity speed becouse they are in conntanct all the time. Anyway all existing "quantum computer" are exponentionaly inefficient. Thus classical world noise is stronger than many universe power...
QUOTE
By the way, is English your first language?

Yes English is my first language. laugh.gif
DavidD
QUOTE (yor_on+Mar 5 2008, 03:18 PM)
Soon to come to your backyard:)
and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson_junction
Were using quantum effects every day.

For describing Josephan junction need or not entanglement, anyway if even entanglement between atoms or electrons or nucleons or bose condensat (paired lectrons) exist then this entanglement is very weak and after few steps noise breaking down entanglement and thus any quantum computation can't be harnesed. Noise is 70% between entangled say electrons then after another operation on entanglement noise will be 140% and thus it will be equal to total noise and thus quantum computer will not work...
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 06:35 PM)
Don't kiding. (e^{ix})'=(cosx+isinx)'=-sinx+icosx=i*e^{ix}.

Then why couldn't you differentiate e^{i(kx-wt)} and show it solves the Schrodinger equation?

Infact, that was a question my 2nd years did last week, show that cos(kx-wt) and sin(kx-wt) don't solve the Schrodinger equation but e^{i(kx-wt)} does, then they have to explain why. Can you?
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 06:35 PM)
Quantum computer shrodinger equation will not model (simulate) faster.
Not a 'single run', but the point is that their superposition allows them to do a lot of runs at the same time.

This is why they are excellent code crackers. RSA relies upon it being difficult to find prime factors of large numbers. If you are given N, you want to find an M such that N/M is an integer. This takes a huge amount of trial and error, even with efficent algorithms. However, a quantum computer tries ALL possible M at once.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 06:35 PM)
Whose equation for properly simulation molecules probably don't exist in physics textbooks. So it's means, that physics like you don't know how properly describe two atoms, becouse they don't familiar with entanglement between those atoms.
Yes, they do. How do you think 'Folding@Home' works? It's a program you can already get from the internet which allows your computer to model protein folding.

Besides, how do you know what is or isn't in a physics textbook, you don't even know that there's ways of how to solve the Schrodinger equation in a textbook, despite the fact you talk about the Schrodinger equation all the time.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 06:35 PM)
Here you obliously showing, that nothing know about quantum algorithms. Quantum computer newton physics WILL NOT simulate faster! Quantum computer exponentionaly faster can simulate quantum mechanic and factorise big number.
There's nothing 'magic' about quantum mechanical differential equations. A computer cannot tell if the equation you give it is classical or quantum. Infact, the Schrodinger equation IS the classical heat equation, except one of the terms has a factor of 'i' in it. It's actually harder to solve the Schrodinger equation because of that factor of i. Thus, if a computer can solve the Schrodinger equation then it can solve the heat equation in classical physics.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 06:35 PM)
Don't make me laugh.
I'm trying to make you think.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 06:35 PM)
and equal to Quantum Furier Transform.
There's nothing 'quantum' about the Fourier transforms in quantum mechanics, they are just Fourier transforms. Fourier transforms of a much more complicated kind turn up in non-linear waves. Just ask Euler, he knows both.

Besides, what do you know about Fourier transforms?
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 5 2008, 06:35 PM)
Yes English is my first language.
Then I'm forced to ask if you suffer from dyslexia, a learning disability or have received a head injury at some point in your life?

It's just that your English, in spelling, grammar and even coherent sentence construction, is awful. A 10 year old would be embarrased to have English as bad as you. Not only do you not appear to be very good at physics, you don't even seem to think coherently.
AlphaNumeric
It would seem I got a warning for saying "Listen up jackass, I teach this stuff".

Obviously someone doesn't like me stating the fact I teach quantum mechanics to university students and thus prove I actually know something about QM, contrary to what DavidD keeps trying to say and I think 'jackass' is justified, considering how ignorant David obviously is about all the things he whines about. Even when spoon fed explainations, he still doesn't grasp them and then declares things like 'solutions to the Schrodinger equations don't exist'.

I get a warning for posting explaination after explaination, while DavidD gets nothing while showing continual ignorance and an unwillingness to even try to learn physics.

Do the admin even bother to read threads before giving out warnings? Do they even have the ability to evaluate contributions!? Or are they just mindless automitons who appear at irregulat intervals, ignore the wishes of posters and deal out warnings to people who actually contribute physics?
Username
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Mar 6 2008, 01:12 AM)
I get a warning for posting explaination after explaination, while DavidD gets nothing while showing continual ignorance and an unwillingness to even try to learn physics.


Alphanumeric,

Mod's on this site obviously sympathize with near brain-dead, profoundly stupid, barely sentient jackass psychotic clowntards. DavidD exhibits all aforementioned qualities with a real zesty flair for stupidity, although I suspect he's also very young as demonstrated by his pre-zygotic inability to think etc, perhaps when he goes diploid things might improve.
DavidD
QUOTE
Then why couldn't you differentiate e^{i(kx-wt)} and show it solves the Schrodinger equation?

I just don't understand how it realates with schrodinger equation...
(e^{i(kx-wt)})'=(i(kx-wt))'*e^{i(kx-wt)}=ik*e^{i(kx-wt)}.
And from http://www2.kutl.kyushu-u.ac.jp/seminar/Mi...dinger_eq_E.htm
(e^{i(px-Et)/h})'=(i(px-Et)/h)'*e^{i(px-Et)/h}=ip/h *e^{i(px-Et)/h}.
(ip/h *e^{i(px-Et)/h})'=(ip/h)^2 *e^{i(px-Et)/h}.
So you want to say that if psi(x, t)=e^{i(px-Et)/h}, then schrodinger equation is
ih*d(psi)/dt=-h^2 /(2*m) * d^2(psi)/dx^2=-h^2 /(2*m) *(ip/h)^2 *e^{i(px-Et)/h}=-(ip)^2 /(2m) *e^{i(px-Et)/h} ?
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Then why couldn't you differentiate e^{i(kx-wt)} and show it solves the Schrodinger equation?

I just don't understand how it realates with schrodinger equation...
(e^{i(kx-wt)})'=(i(kx-wt))'*e^{i(kx-wt)}=ik*e^{i(kx-wt)}.
And from http://www2.kutl.kyushu-u.ac.jp/seminar/Mi...dinger_eq_E.htm
(e^{i(px-Et)/h})'=(i(px-Et)/h)'*e^{i(px-Et)/h}=ip/h *e^{i(px-Et)/h}.
(ip/h *e^{i(px-Et)/h})'=(ip/h)^2 *e^{i(px-Et)/h}.
So you want to say that if psi(x, t)=e^{i(px-Et)/h}, then schrodinger equation is
ih*d(psi)/dt=-h^2 /(2*m) * d^2(psi)/dx^2=-h^2 /(2*m) *(ip/h)^2 *e^{i(px-Et)/h}=-(ip)^2 /(2m) *e^{i(px-Et)/h} ?
Infact, that was a question my 2nd years did last week, show that cos(kx-wt) and sin(kx-wt) don't solve the Schrodinger equation but e^{i(kx-wt)} does, then they have to explain why. Can you?

Becouse sinus is without i.
QUOTE
This is why they are excellent code crackers. RSA relies upon it being difficult to find prime factors of large numbers. If you are given N, you want to find an M such that N/M is an integer. This takes a huge amount of trial and error, even with efficent algorithms. However, a quantum computer tries ALL possible M at once

Yes, fastest classical algorithm taking time ~2^{n^{1/3}}, while quantum algorithm ~n^2 time.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This is why they are excellent code crackers. RSA relies upon it being difficult to find prime factors of large numbers. If you are given N, you want to find an M such that N/M is an integer. This takes a huge amount of trial and error, even with efficent algorithms. However, a quantum computer tries ALL possible M at once

Yes, fastest classical algorithm taking time ~2^{n^{1/3}}, while quantum algorithm ~n^2 time.
Yes, they do. How do you think 'Folding@Home' works? It's a program you can already get from the internet which allows your computer to model protein folding.

How you know how flong@home works? They mabe searching related structure or somthing and don's solving it "with entanglement". Becouse proteins have more than 1000 atoms, so to simulate protein with entanglement need more than 2^1000 bits and this is imposible for best supercomputer. Free registration http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/309/5741/1704 aboput quantum simulation with entanglement.
QUOTE
There's nothing 'magic' about quantum mechanical differential equations. A computer cannot tell if the equation you give it is classical or quantum. Infact, the Schrodinger equation IS the classical heat equation, except one of the terms has a factor of 'i' in it. It's actually harder to solve the Schrodinger equation because of that factor of i. Thus, if a computer can solve the Schrodinger equation then it can solve the heat equation in classical physics.

I was talking about "entangled quantum mechanic"... i is not problem for classical computer, entanglement - is.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
There's nothing 'magic' about quantum mechanical differential equations. A computer cannot tell if the equation you give it is classical or quantum. Infact, the Schrodinger equation IS the classical heat equation, except one of the terms has a factor of 'i' in it. It's actually harder to solve the Schrodinger equation because of that factor of i. Thus, if a computer can solve the Schrodinger equation then it can solve the heat equation in classical physics.

I was talking about "entangled quantum mechanic"... i is not problem for classical computer, entanglement - is.
There's nothing 'quantum' about the Fourier transforms in quantum mechanics, they are just Fourier transforms. Fourier transforms of a much more complicated kind turn up in non-linear waves. Just ask Euler, he knows both.

Besides, what do you know about Fourier transforms?

Fourier transform maybe isn't classical, but on quantum computer it is somehow much faster... I know only about fourier series, fourier transform is for finding period of number to be factorized.
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 6 2008, 09:31 AM)
I just don't understand how it realates with schrodinger equation...
(e^{i(kx-wt)})'=(i(kx-wt))'*e^{i(kx-wt)}=ik*e^{i(kx-wt)}.
And from http://www2.kutl.kyushu-u.ac.jp/seminar/Mi...dinger_eq_E.htm
(e^{i(px-Et)/h})=(i(px-Et)/h)'*e^{i(px-Et)/h}=ip/h *e^{i(px-Et)/h}.
(ip/h *e^{i(px-Et)/h})'=(ip/h)^2 *e^{i(px-Et)/h}.
So you want to say that if psi(x, t)=e^{i(px-Et)/h}, then schrodinger equation is
ih*d(psi)/dt=-h^2 /(2*m) * d^2(psi)/dx^2=-h^2 /(2*m) *(ip/h)^2 *e^{i(px-Et)/h}=-(ip)^2 /(2m) *e^{i(px-Et)/h} ?

Well done, you just failed to show you can even do differentiation on multiple variables.

A = e^{i(kx-wt)}

dA/dt = -iwA
dA/dx = ikA
(d/dx)(dA/dx) = -(k^2)A

The Schrodinger equation for a free particle is :

-((h^2)/2m)(d/dx)(dA/dx) = idA/dt

Putting in the expressions for the derivatives of A gives :

-((h^2)/2m)(-k^2)A = wA

Therefore this is satisfied if w = [(hk)^2]/2m

Provided this is satisfied, A = e^{i(kx-wt)} is a solution to the Schrodinger equation for a free particle.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 6 2008, 09:31 AM)
Becouse sinus is without i.
Firstly, it's 'sine', not 'sinus'. A sinus is part of your nose. Secondly, isin(kx-wt) isn't a solution of the Schrodinger equation (trivially so since sin(kx-wt) is not and the equation is linear). It's because the Schrodinger equation is 2nd order in space but first order in time and thus a linear combination of trig functions is needed so that the different parts of the wave function 'compensate' for each others differentiation.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 6 2008, 09:31 AM)
How you know how flong@home works? They mabe searching related structure or somthing and don's solving it "with entanglement". Becouse proteins have more than 1000 atoms, so to simulate protein with entanglement need more than 2^1000 bits and this is imposible for best supercomputer. Free registration http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/309/5741/1704 aboput quantum simulation with entanglement.
Folding at home is not about simulating all the different spin state combinations of 1000 atoms. It's about modelling the dynamis of the atoms given certain simplifications.

You don't even know what the program does!
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 6 2008, 09:31 AM)
I was talking about "entangled quantum mechanic"... i is not problem for classical computer, entanglement - is.
But when it comes to solving the Schrodinger equation, entanglement doesn't come into it. Quantum computers and classical computers do not solve the Schrodinger equation unless asked to solve that particular differential equation. The quantum computer works on the principle of superposition and entanglement, it doesn't simulate it. As I gave as an example before, a car doesn't simulate Newtons equations of motion, it works on the principles of Newtonian equations of motion.
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 6 2008, 09:31 AM)
Fourier transform maybe isn't classical, but on quantum computer it is somehow much faster... I know only about fourier series, fourier transform is for finding period of number to be factorized.
*sigh*

Fourier transforms and the Schrodinger equation are neither 'classical' or 'quantum'. They are mathematical operations/equations. Yes, they can be applied to certain areas of physics but a computer doesn't know that, it just solves an equation. What particular physics we assign to that eqnation or procedure is entirely up to us. Hence feeding a computer the Schrodinger equation doesn't make it suddenly slow down compared to an equation we associate with classical mechanics. It depends entirely on the mathematical structure, not physical description.

A non-linear equation will, in general, be harder to solve than a linear one. There's plenty of non-linear classical equations and plenty of linear quantum ones. Computers don't know anything about physics, they just solve the maths.

And I'm certain you know nothing of Fourier series.

If you think you do, give me to Fourier series expansion for the even function defined by y(x) = x(1-x) between x=0 and x=1.

DavidD
QUOTE
A = e^{i(kx-wt)}

dA/dt = -iwA
dA/dx = ikA
(d/dx)(dA/dx) = -(k^2)A

The Schrodinger equation for a free particle is :

-((h^2)/2m)(d/dx)(dA/dx) = idA/dt

Putting in the expressions for the derivatives of A gives :

-((h^2)/2m)(-k^2)A = wA

Therefore this is satisfied if w = [(hk)^2]/2m

A=e^{i(px-Et)/h}

dA/dt = (-iE/h) *A
dA/dx = ipA/h
(d/dx)(dA/dx) = -((p/h)^2)A

-((h^2)/2m)(d/dx)(dA/dx) = ih*dA/dt

-((h^2)/2m)(-(p/h)^2)A = hEA/h

(p^2)/2m *A = EA

E = (p^2)/2m

Why our solutions are diferent. Maybe you forgot h? -((h^2)/2m)(d/dx)(dA/dx) = i*h*dA/dt

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A = e^{i(kx-wt)}

dA/dt = -iwA
dA/dx = ikA
(d/dx)(dA/dx) = -(k^2)A

The Schrodinger equation for a free particle is :

-((h^2)/2m)(d/dx)(dA/dx) = idA/dt

Putting in the expressions for the derivatives of A gives :

-((h^2)/2m)(-k^2)A = wA

Therefore this is satisfied if w = [(hk)^2]/2m

A=e^{i(px-Et)/h}

dA/dt = (-iE/h) *A
dA/dx = ipA/h
(d/dx)(dA/dx) = -((p/h)^2)A

-((h^2)/2m)(d/dx)(dA/dx) = ih*dA/dt

-((h^2)/2m)(-(p/h)^2)A = hEA/h

(p^2)/2m *A = EA

E = (p^2)/2m

Why our solutions are diferent. Maybe you forgot h? -((h^2)/2m)(d/dx)(dA/dx) = i*h*dA/dt

Provided this is satisfied, A = e^{i(kx-wt)} is a solution to the Schrodinger equation for a free particle.

What is the free particle, what is p (or k), what is E (or w)? And what this all means? You want to say that if the known that energy(frenquency?) is E= [hp^2]/2m and we know mass and p (momentum?), then we can very dificulty integrate and find A=e^{i(px-Et)/h} ?

So you admit, that for protein folding simulation don't need exponentional amount of computation power? Then it's means that protein folding can be solved in polinomial time on classical computer and for protein folding don't need quantum computer.

IF you don't read:

"Simulated Quantum Computation of Molecular Energies
Alán Aspuru-Guzik,1* Anthony D. Dutoi,1* Peter J. Love,2 Martin Head-Gordon1,3


The calculation time for the energy of atoms and molecules scales exponentially with system size on a classical computer but polynomially using quantum algorithms. We demonstrate that such algorithms can be applied to problems of chemical interest using modest numbers of quantum bits. Calculations of the water and lithium hydride molecular ground-state energies have been carried out on a quantum computer simulator using a recursive phase-estimation algorithm. The recursive algorithm reduces the number of quantum bits required for the readout register from about 20 to 4. Mappings of the molecular wave function to the quantum bits are described. An adiabatic method for the preparation of a good approximate ground-state wave function is described and demonstrated for a stretched hydrogen molecule. The number of quantum bits required scales linearly with the number of basis functions, and the number of gates required grows polynomially with the number of quantum bits.

1 Department of Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley, CA, USA.
2 D-Wave Systems, Inc., 4401 Still Creek Drive, Suite 100, Burnaby, BC V5C 6G9, Canada.
3 Chemical Sciences Division, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA.

* These authors contributed equally to this work.


To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: alan@aspuru.com

Feynman observed that simulation of quantum systems might be easier on computers using quantum bits (qubits) (1). The subsequent development of quantum algorithms has made this observation concrete (2–6). On classical computers, resource requirements for complete simulation of the time-independent Schrödinger equation scale exponentially with the number of atoms in a molecule, limiting such full configuration interaction (FCI) calculations to diatomic and triatomic molecules (7). Computational quantum chemistry is therefore based on approximate methods that often succeed in predicting chemical properties for larger systems, but their level of accuracy varies with the nature of the species, making more complete methods desirable (8).

Could quantum computation offer a new way forward for exact methods? Despite the formal promise, it has not been demonstrated that quantum algorithms can compute quantities of chemical importance for real molecular systems to the requisite accuracy. We address this issue by classically simulating quantum computations of the FCI ground-state energies of two small molecules. Although the basis sets used are small, the energies are obtained to the precision necessary for chemistry. Absolute molecular energies must be computed to a precision (greater than six decimal places) that reflects the smaller energy differences observed in chemical reactions (0.1 kcal/mol). These simulations show that quantum computers of tens to hundreds of qubits can match and exceed the capabilities of classical FCI calculations.

A molecular ground-state energy is the lowest eigenvalue of a time-independent Schrödinger equation. The phase-estimation algorithm (PEA) of Abrams and Lloyd (3, 4) can be used to obtain eigenvalues of Hermitian operators; we address issues concerning its implementation for molecular Hamiltonians. The molecular ground-state wave function | is represented on a qubit register S (state). Another register R (readout) is used to store intermediate information and to obtain the Hamiltonian eigenvalue E. The Hamiltonian is used to generate a unitary operator Ű, with E mapped to the phase of its eigenvalue ei2.
(1)

Through repeated controlled action of powers of Ű, the computer is placed in the state
(2)

The summation index n enumerates the basis states of R according to their bit-string value. The quantum inverse Fourier transform is then applied to R to obtain an approximation to written in binary to R. The procedure is related to the Fourier transform of the time dependence of an eigenstate to obtain its eigenenergy. By using polynomially scaling classical approximation methods, an initial estimate of E can be obtained to choose such that 0 ( 1/2) < 1.

We address four separate issues. First, we show how standard chemical basis sets can be used for representations of the wave function on S. Second, although the size of R relative to S will be marginal in the large-system limit, this initial overhead (20 qubits for a chemically meaningful result) presently represents a substantial impediment to both classical simulation and actual implementation of the algorithm. We show how a modification of the PEA makes it possible to perform a sequence of computations with a smaller register, such that the precision of the result obtained is independent of the size of R. Third, the algorithm requires that any estimated ground state has a large overlap with the actual eigenstate. We show how a good estimate of the ground-state wave function may be prepared adiabatically from a crude starting point. Finally, Ű must be represented in a number of quantum gates that scales polynomially with the size of the system, and we give such bounds.

Any implementation of a quantum-simulation algorithm requires a mapping from the system wave function to the state of the qubits. Basisset methods of quantum chemistry often represent many-particle molecular wave functions in terms of single-particle atomic orbitals. The number of orbitals in a basis set is proportional to the number of atoms in a molecule. The molecular wave function may be represented by a state of S in two basic ways. In the direct mapping, each qubit represents the fermionic occupation state of a particular atomic orbital, occupied or not. In this approach, a Fock space of the molecular system is mapped onto the Hilbert space of the qubits. This mapping is the least efficient but has advantages discussed later. In the more efficient compact mapping, only a subspace of the Fock space with fixed electron number is mapped onto the qubits. The states of the simulated system and of the qubit system are simply enumerated and equated. Furthermore, one could choose only a subspace of the fixed-particle-number space. The compact mapping with restriction to a spin-state subspace is the most economical mapping considered in this work. Figure 1 shows that the number of qubits required for both the compact and direct mappings scales linearly with the number of basis functions. Also shown are the qubit requirements for specific molecules with different basis sets and mappings. More extensive qubit estimates for computations on H2O are given in Table 1, including restriction to the singlet-spin subspace.


Fig. 1. Qubit requirements versus basis size. The number of qubits required to store the wave function of a molecule is shown as a function of the number of basis functions for different mappings. For the compact mapping, the qubit requirement depends also on the ratio of number of electrons to basis functions, which is relatively constant for a given basis set; although the higher quality cc-pVTZ basis is more economical per basis function, a molecule in this basis uses substantially more functions than with the 6-31G* basis. The qubits required for specific molecules and basis sets are also shown. [View Larger Version of this Image (27K GIF file)]




Table 1. Qubit requirements for computations on water. The number of qubits needed to store the wave function of water is given for various basis sets and system-qubit mappings, including restriction to the singlet-spin subspace. Water Basis set (number of functions)
Mapping STO-3G (7) 6-31G* (19) cc-pVTZ (58)

Compact (singlets) 8 25 42
Compact 10 29 47
Direct 14 38 116





In this work, a modified PEA was carried out, which uses a relatively small number of qubits in R (as few as four for stability). This implementation allows more of the qubits to be devoted to information about the system and decreases the number of consecutive coherent quantum gates necessary. This procedure can be interpreted as making continually better estimates of a reference energy. The Hamiltonian is then shifted by the current reference energy and an estimate of the deviation of the actual energy from the reference is computed. The reference energy is then updated, and the procedure is repeated until the desired precision is obtained.

The algorithm at iteration k is illustrated in Fig. 2A. In iteration zero, we set 0 = Ű and perform a four-qubit PEA on 0. This estimates on the interval zero to unity with a precision of 1/16. We use this estimate to construct a shift 0, which is a lower bound on . We apply this shift and repeat the four-qubit PEA using the new operator 1 = [e–i20 0]2. This determines the remainder of above the previous lower bound on an interval representing half of the previous interval. In each subsequent iteration k, we construct a similarly modified operator k and shift k. By choosing a k that is one-fourth lower than the phase of the k eigenvalue estimate, we ensure that the phase of the k + 1 eigenvalue is approximately centered on the interval zero to unity. In each iteration, we therefore obtain one additional bit of , as shown in Fig. 2B for a calculation on H2O.


Fig. 2. Recursive PEA circuit and output. (A) The quantum circuit for the recursive phase-estimation algorithm is illustrated. k iterations are required to obtain k bits of a phase that represents the molecular energy. QFT+ represents the quantum inverse Fourier transform and Hd is a Hadamard gate; the dial symbols represent measurement. (cool.gif Output probabilities for obtaining the first eight bits of in the water calculation are shown. The abscissa is scaled to be in terms of molecular energy, and the ordinate is probability. [View Larger Version of this Image (29K GIF file)]






Fig. 3. ASP evolution of ground-state overlap and excitation gap. (A) Time evolution of the squared overlap of the wave function |ASP with the exact ground state | during adiabatic state preparation is shown. The system is the hydrogen molecule at different nuclear separations r; time was divided into 1000 steps in all cases. (cool.gif Time evolution of the singlet ground- to first-excited-state energy gap of the Hamiltonian used along the adiabatic path is shown. [View Larger Version of this Image (19K GIF file)]



To demonstrate the usefulness of the recursive procedure, we carried out calculations on H2O and LiH. For H2O, we used the minimal STO-3G basis set, yielding 196 singlet-spin configurations; there are 1210 such configurations for LiH in the larger 6-31G basis. This required 8 and 11 qubits, respectively, for the compact mapping of the singlet subspace. Register S was initialized to the Hartree-Fock (HF) wave function in both cases. After 20 iterations, the electronic energy obtained for H2O [–84.203663 atomic units (a.u.)] matched the Hamiltonian diagonalization energy (–84.203665 a.u.). The LiH calculation (–9.1228936 a.u.) matched diagonalization (–9.1228934 a.u.) to the same number of significant digits. The precision is good enough for almost all chemical purposes. The discrepancy between the PEA and diagonalization is attributed to error in matrix exponentiation to form Ű from .

In the simulations described above, the approximation to the ground-state wave function was the HF state |HF. The probability of observing the exact ground state |, and hence the success of the PEA, is then proportional to ||HF|2. However, it is known for some cases, such as molecules close to the dissociation limit or in the limit of large system size, that the HF wave function has vanishing overlap with the ground state (9). The overlap of the initially prepared state with the exact state can be systematically improved by an adiabatic-state-preparation (ASP) algorithm, relying on the adiabatic theorem (10–12). The theorem states that a system will remain in its ground state if the Hamiltonian is changed slowly enough. Our Hamiltonian is changed slowly by discretized linear interpolation from the trivial HF case to the FCI operator. The efficiency is governed by how rapidly the Hamiltonian may be varied, which is determined by the gap between ground-state and first-excited-state energies along the path (11). In the case of quantum chemistry problems, lower bounds on this gap may be estimated with conventional methods.

The path HF is chosen by defining HF to have all matrix elements equal to zero, except the first element, namely H1,1, which is equal to the HF energy. This yields an initial gap the size of the ground-state mean-field energy, which is very large relative to typical electronic excitations. The ASP method was applied to the H2 molecule at large separations in the STO-3G basis, for which the squared overlap of the HF wave function with the exact ground state is one half. As evidenced by Fig. 3A, the ASP algorithm prepares states with a high squared overlap for several internuclear distances of the H2 molecule. Figure 3B plots the relevant gap along the adiabatic path, which is shown for this system to be well-behaved and nonvanishing.

The accuracy and quantum-gate complexity of the algorithm depend on the specific gate decomposition of the unitary operators k, defined above. The factorization of unitary matrices into products of one- and two-qubit elementary gates is the fundamental problem of quantum circuit design. We now demonstrate that the lengths of the gate sequences involved are bounded from above by a polynomial function of the number of qubits.

We analyze the gate complexity of our Ű for the direct mapping of the state. The molecular Hamiltonian is written in second quantized form as
(3)





where |p is a one-particle state, âp is its fermionic annihilation operator, and , N, and e are the one-particle kinetic and nuclear-attraction operators and the two-particle electron-repulsion operator, respectively. It has been shown in (2), that for the following approximation to Ű
(4)

M can always be chosen such that the error is bounded by some preset threshold. The number of gates to implement Ű then scales polynomially with the system size for a given M, under the conditions that the number of terms x scales polynomially with system size and that each x acts on a polynomially scaling number of qubits. In our case, these conditions are manifestly fulfilled. The number of terms in the Hamiltonian grows approximately with the fourth power of the number of atoms, and each term involves maximally four basis functions, implying action on at most five qubits in the direct mapping (four qubits in S plus a control qubit in R). A linear-scaling number of two-qubit operations (similar to qubit swaps) can account for fermionic antisymmetry in the action of the unitary operator constructed from each X (13). M is a multiplicative factor in the number of gates. Because the fraction of all pairs of X terms that do not commute decreases with system size, it is reasonable to assume that M increases polynomially at worst. The advantage of the direct mapping is that, at most, controlled four-qubit unitary operations are required. The number of one- and two-qubit elementary gates required to represent an arbitrary four-qubit gate has been shown to be always less than 400 (14); the structure of a controlled four-qubit unitary operation will allow a decomposition into a similar order of magnitude in the number of gates.

We have found that chemical precision can be achieved with modest qubit requirements for the representation of the wave function and for the readout register. The ASP algorithm has been shown to systematically improve the probability of success of the PEA. Although exponentially difficult on a classical computer, extension to larger molecules requires only linear growth in the number of qubits. The direct mapping for the molecular wave function to the qubit state allows the unitary operator to be decomposed into a number of gates that scales polynomially with system size.

The difficulty of performing quantum-computing simulations is about an order of magnitude greater than conventional FCI. Although possible as experiments, such simulations are not a competitive alternative. To repeat the calculations performed here with a high-quality basis set (cc-pVTZ) would require S to consist of 47 or 22 qubits for H2O or LiH, respectively, using the compact mapping of the full Hilbert space. For most molecules and basis set combinations shown in Fig. 1, an FCI calculation is certainly classically intractable. An FCI calculation for H2O with cc-pVTZ would be at the edge of what is presently possible. This demonstrates an often-stated conjecture, that quantum simulation algorithms with 30 to 100 qubits will be among the smallest applications of quantum computing that can exceed the limitations of classical computing."
QUOTE
And I'm certain you know nothing of Fourier series.

If you think you do, give me to Fourier series expansion for the even function defined by y(x) = x(1-x) between x=0 and x=1.

I about fourier series know a little bit. It's prety hard. And they don't seems very interesting and special or important...
DavidD
Here prety good expanation how was goten schoedinger equation
http://www2.kutl.kyushu-u.ac.jp/seminar/Mi...dinger_eq_E.htm
So It probably was choosen random formula, until was goten equation id(psi)/dt=-h/2m * d^2(psi)/dx^2 . And this random comlex number formula by "big brain" was invented by spending many time like psi(x, t)=e^{i(px-Et)/h} for particle in one dimension, which still somehow acts like wave...
How psi(x, y, z, t) was gotten in 3 dimensions and how it's looks like? But still very hard to imagine how e^{i(px-Et)/h} realates with reality and how particle behaving, even if it don't moving... And what is realation between x and t? x= t? How time can changing without changing "wave"-x motion or somthing?..
Username
DavidD's merely copying and pasting stuff he truly does not comprehend from here:

www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/309/5741/1704

Oh so woefully (on steroids) sad!


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Trippy
In reference to what I can only assume was supposed to be solving it for Lead atoms.

We don't, because there's too many variables to consider (In fact, I believe that solving it for Helium has yet to be done).

We solve it for the simplest case (at least as far as orbitals go) - in this case Hydrogen, and apply that solution, an approach that has been shown experimentaly to be accurate.
DavidD
"In quantum optics, violations of Bell inequalities and quantum teleportation with photons have been investigated [57,58], while so far no corresponding experiments for electrons in a solid-state environment are reported."
http://theorie5.physik.unibas.ch/qcomp/node23.html
Who can give me convincing evidence that electron entanglement exist?



A little bit more about my theory. My theory explaining or more precisly experiments explaining my theory... So my teory explaining Non-locality: photons entanglement, superposition (Martc zender interferometer), Heinserberg uncertainty principle, why waves collapse to particles, why all particles behaving like waves. Becouse all space is filled with smallest balls, balls are in conntact with each over. This means that some kind of information can be transmited with infinity speed, this hapening, becouse balls making dificult combinations and through this combination exist energy realation (superposition, photons entanglement...). Becouse waves can be only if some matter going trough non-linear medium like smallest balls in my theory this explaining why all particles behaves like waves. And there can't exist particles (quantum), which don't behave like waves. So actualy exist only waves and some kind information transmision with infinity speed, maybe it's becouse our universe is noisy, smallest balls always chaoticly movinig and was collapse of wave in some small space is random...
Username
rolleyes.gif ..... balls?, what an utter scrotal sack.

laugh.gif
DavidD
My smallest balls theory expaining entanglement, superposition, uncertainty principle, particel-wave duality, releativity. Enstein releativity is becouse balls size is finity and was wave going through finity size medium can't go with infinity speed... Becouse universe chaotic fluction (smallest balls chaotic motions) behaving with finity speed. So actualy light speed is speed of universe smallest balls chaotic motions speed.
DavidD
Amazing paper about entangled electrons... http://www.scribd.com/doc/861840/Intercont...escent-crystals

The corelation coeficient is 0.63. So according to my calculations after first two gates operation signal will be 0.63. After second 0.63*0.63=0.3969. After third corelation will be 0.63^3=0.25; 0.63^4=0.1575; 0.63^5=0.099. So after five grover iterations, etc, signal strenge will be only 10%. Weak, very weak dry.gif
Too weak for quantum computation biggrin.gif dry.gif mad.gif

If for example signal strenght would be 0.99, then even after 100 grover iterations strenght would be 0.99^100=0.366 or about 37%. After 1000 grover iterations 0.99^1000=0.000043 or 0.0043%. To get asnwer with 100% probability would need in this case reapete computation 1/0.000043=23163 times. Classical (probabilistic (my)) computer would give you answer after 1000 times , when quantum computer must give answer after 1000^0.5=32, but in such case it giving answer worse than my computer. How it can be? It's quantum crap and not a quantum computer. Or you maybe want to say that need 0.99-0.01 made hundred times. Then after 100 iterations signal would be zero, but after 32 iterations signal would be 0.99-(0.01)*32=0.67. 1/0.67=1.49 times repeate. 0.99^32=0.725; 1/0.725=1.379 times repeate - it's dont matter... So if quantum computer will work with coherence 0.99, then even after 1000000 steps for my probabilistic computer... It will took for quantum computer only 1000 steps (iterations) and signal would be either 0.99-(0.01)*1000=0, either 0.99^1000=0.000043; 1/0.000043=23164. So then at all for quantum computer would need only 1000+23164=24164 classical computer steps ( grover iterations). So 24000<1000000. Then there would be reason to build quantum computer. But if coherence is onlu 0.63^1000=10^{-200}. I think you knkow that is means 1/10^{-200}=10^200 ? It's means that for quantum computer with entanglement corelation 0.63 would need 10^200 steps, while for classical computer only 1000000 steps. So that why quantum computer idea is stupid and based on noisy entanglement. And until entanglement is weak (63%), the quantum computer idea can be forgoted. sad.gif
DavidD
Also I read that entanglement between electrons is 2*2^0.5=2.8284, and if entanglement don't exist then only 2.
2.83=100
2=x
x=2*100/2.83=70.67

70.67=100
63=x
x=63*100/70.67=89%.

So What if entantlement realy is 0.89?
Let's see how effiecent quantum computer would be 0.89^1000=10^{-50}. 1/10^{-50}=10^50 repeats is needed. Too bad. Quantum dreams broken forever?
TheDoc
QUOTE (DavidD+)
And until entanglement is weak (63%), the quantum computer idea can be forgoted.


*smashes head on desk* You just don't get it do you?

QUOTE
Quantum dreams broken forever?


Maybe in your deluded little world. In the real world, however, quantum computers not only exist, but THEY ACTUALLY WORK. AlphaNumeric has already shown you the proof, you just don't want to accept it.
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 17 2008, 06:04 PM)
So according to my calculations

But you have the maths ability of a dyslexic 4 year old on life support.

Funny how you ignore the papers I provided which describe working quantum computers. Obviously you're so blinded by your delusions you ignore anything which proves you wrong.
DavidD
Say me, I asking one more time, do those all quantum computer giving any speedup?????????
DavidD
QUOTE (TheDoc+Mar 17 2008, 06:04 PM)

Maybe in your deluded little world. In the real world, however, quantum computers not only exist, but THEY ACTUALLY WORK. AlphaNumeric has already shown you the proof, you just don't want to accept it.

You even don't understand about what I am talking. Alphanumeric is as stupid as you... He can't answer in simple question. Do those quantum computers faster? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't giving any speedup, they are exponentionaly inefiecent. Single photon simulator is not TRUE quantum computer it's just demonstrating quantum mechanic and it's nothing to do with principle of quantum computer, you stupid are so much....
Username
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 18 2008, 06:28 AM)
You even don't understand about what I am talking. Alphanumeric is as stupid as you... He can't answer in simple question. Do those quantum computers faster? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't giving any speedup, they are exponentionaly inefiecent. Single photon simulator is not TRUE quantum computer it's just demonstrating quantum mechanic and it's nothing to do with principle of quantum computer, you stupid are so much....

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif - Yoda's sockpuppet? rolleyes.gif

<Max>
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 18 2008, 06:28 AM)
Alphanumeric is as stupid as you...

I wish more people on Earth were as stupid as AlphaNumeric. laugh.gif

But seriously, this coming from an imbecile who named a thread "Why Quantum Mechanic Is Wrong?, becouse without evidence was created". AlphaNumeric is doing PhD on topic of String Theory, a subject that most people won't understand in their entire life. laugh.gif
DavidD
http://www.opticsexpress.org/DirectPDFAcce...FTOKEN=91088045
Here is the same bullshit as alphanumeric claiming "quantum computer" It's takes exponentional amount of energy, like alphanumeric "quantum computer" takes expionentional amount of gates. They two are HYPERCOMPUTERS. Alphaumeric Don't see diferent between quantum computer and Hypercomputer. He is good at physics, but about quantum computer he understand like 5 years boy.
Username
Better a 5 year old boy than a shoe-horn Bozo. dry.gif
DavidD
QUOTE (Username+Mar 18 2008, 06:51 AM)
Better a 5 year old boy than a shoe-horn Bozo. dry.gif

Better admit, that I am right and don't play stupid game.
Trippy
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 18 2008, 07:22 PM)
Say me.

Okay.

Me.
Me, me, me, me, me.

And Me.
Trippy
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 18 2008, 08:07 PM)
Better admit, that I am right and don't play stupid game.

I personally make a point of avoiding Bogglw - that gane really irritates me,
Username
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 18 2008, 07:07 AM)
Better admit, that I am right and don't play stupid game.

"Better"? .... is that a threat? - eek! ohmy.gif - must instantly arm myself against the marauding cretin and his bucket of dinosaurs.

ph34r.gif
AlphaNumeric
David doesn't seem to understand how quantum computers work. Despite my explaination multiple times.

A process involves simulating say N coin flips. Each combination must be fed into a computer and a calculation done.

A normal computer has to simulate 2^N possible combinations. This grows exponentially with N. It needs 2^N input combinations and a total of N.2^N bits.

A quantum computer simulates all 2^N combinations by putting N bits into a state of superposition, so it only needs to run the simulation once. Thus it only needs N bits.

The quantum computer is exponentially faster than a usual computer.

Hence the quantum computer is faster than a normal computer. David simply cannot get his head around this.
DavidD
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Mar 18 2008, 07:35 AM)
David doesn't seem to understand how quantum computers work. Despite my explaination multiple times.

A process involves simulating say N coin flips. Each combination must be fed into a computer and a calculation done.

A normal computer has to simulate 2^N possible combinations. This grows exponentially with N. It needs 2^N input combinations and a total of N.2^N bits.

A quantum computer simulates all 2^N combinations by putting N bits into a state of superposition, so it only needs to run the simulation once. Thus it only needs N bits.

The quantum computer is exponentially faster than a usual computer.

Hence the quantum computer is faster than a normal computer. David simply cannot get his head around this.

Why you explaining me, how fast hypothetical quantum computer is in theory? I know this. I was asking, do now existing quantum computer giving any speed up. In theory even small quantum computer must give speed up 2x times or 3x times or somthing, maybe 10x. So I am asking do existing quantum computers giving any speed up, at least, 2x? Do there is proves that existing quantum computers are at least 2x faster than the same complexity classical conterparts? NO! So they aren't quantum computers. So quantum computers don't exist or at least are unproven. Or if you like, ok, they exist, but please answer to my question do existing quantum computers giving any speedup???
TheDoc
QUOTE (DavidD+)
You even don't understand about what I am talking. Alphanumeric is as stupid as you...


Then I must be pretty smart if AlphaNumeric is as dumb as me! laugh.gif

QUOTE
Do those quantum computers faster? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't giving any speedup, they are exponentionaly inefiecent. Single photon simulator is not TRUE quantum computer it's just demonstrating quantum mechanic and it's nothing to do with principle of quantum computer,


PROVE IT.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Do those quantum computers faster? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't giving any speedup, they are exponentionaly inefiecent. Single photon simulator is not TRUE quantum computer it's just demonstrating quantum mechanic and it's nothing to do with principle of quantum computer,


PROVE IT.

you stupid are so much....


You've got it the wrong way around, bozo. YOU are the only idiot here.

QUOTE
He is good at physics, but about quantum computer he understand like 5 years boy.


YOU are denying evidence that quantum computers exist. YOU reject proof that they exist. YOU are the only arguing with the guy who actually knows this stuff. YOU are the one acting like a five-year-old.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
He is good at physics, but about quantum computer he understand like 5 years boy.


YOU are denying evidence that quantum computers exist. YOU reject proof that they exist. YOU are the only arguing with the guy who actually knows this stuff. YOU are the one acting like a five-year-old.

Better admit, that I am right and don't play stupid game.


Oh yeah? Whaddya gonna do if I don't?....Idiot! laugh.gif

QUOTE (<Max>+)
But seriously, this coming from an imbecile who named a thread "Why Quantum Mechanic Is Wrong?, becouse without evidence was created". AlphaNumeric is doing PhD on topic of String Theory, a subject that most people won't understand in their entire life. laugh.gif


Ironic? laugh.gif
DavidD
I am tiered for your stupid games (or maybe my games?). They don't exist or are unproven. You want believe in you iliusions, fine, believe. wink.gif
Alphanumeric can't answer to my question. But still somthing holding people to believe in something what they don't understand. If quantum computer now don't exist it's don't mean that it can't be created later, but I am very sceptical mad.gif
Such stupid persons like you love to speculate unproven things. And claim unproved things. Quantum computer may be even imposible for reason becouse it's an analog computer. And like any analog computer it's after 10000 operations becoming total noise. ph34r.gif
To claim about quantum computers or neglet them is very stupid, becouse everybody know, that they will never be created. blink.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (DavidD+)
am tiered for your stupid games (or maybe my games?).


Your games, bub.

QUOTE
They don't exist or are unproven.


Yes, they do. It's been explained to you several times already, Mr. Idiot.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
They don't exist or are unproven.


Yes, they do. It's been explained to you several times already, Mr. Idiot.

Such stupid persons like you love to speculate unproven things. And claim unproved things.


Ironic?

QUOTE
To claim about quantum computers or neglet them is very stupid, becouse everybody know, that they will never be created.


PROVE IT!
Trippy
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 19 2008, 07:53 AM)
I am tiered

Tiered to how many levels?
TheDoc
QUOTE (Trippy+Mar 20 2008, 05:17 AM)
Tiered to how many levels?

laugh.gif
Trippy
QUOTE (TheDoc+Mar 20 2008, 06:25 PM)
laugh.gif

Poor wittle DavidD got his nose out of joint and negged me laugh.gif
DavidD
QUOTE (Trippy+Mar 20 2008, 07:24 AM)
and negged me laugh.gif

Why not?

So you two want conclusion about quantum mechanic? OK. Fist of all seems that entanglement between atoms and electrons exist and was measured with not doubted precision and it's enough strong. But one sources saying that entanglement between atoms or electrons is incredibly weak or wasn't measured and in another sources they claiming that entanglement between those particles is prety corelating (good). Indeed I want'nt neglet unproven-unknow things for me, so I admit that entanglement between atoms or electrons exist. Then quantum mechanic is correct, but it's can't be used for computation and for simulation quantum mechanic don't need exponentional computation speed or time, becouse QM is too noisy. Most physicsists even don't know about enetanglement, so how much entanglement is wrong can say only quantum computers makers... But indeed is wrong understanding that quantum computer is possible, becouse entanglement never was established with hight accuracy, nor qubit measurment was doen with enough high accuracy suffiecent for computation. So to claim that quantum computer is 100% possible is more than unproven. And to claim that it is laws of quantum mechanic is the same stupid. Quantum mechanic laws or is like I am saying that they too weak and too noisy or unproven and don't knonw and are not sufficently examined. So quantum mechanic is ever incomplete if you claiming that you don't know it, or wrong/unproven if you claim that it's is proved.
AlphaNumeric
Your grammar and spelling is disgusting David. Do you bother to reread your own posts or do you actually think you're coherent?
Trippy
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 21 2008, 12:11 AM)
Why not?

So you don't see the problem with negging someone for pointing out your bad spelling and grammar?

laugh.gif
AlphaNumeric
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 18 2008, 07:53 PM)
Alphanumeric can't answer to my question.

I've answered your questions time and again. You asked if the Schrodinger equation could be solved. I provided you with loads of solutions, including how to predict the electron shell shapes. You didn't understand. You wanted evidence quantum computers had been made, I linked to many papers, you ignored them all. I've explained the physical application of the mathematical notion of Pauli matrices, you didn't understand the maths or the physics. Yet these are the things you keep posting about. You seem to obsessed with things you will not learn, because you make no attempt to and it is now very obvious that you're unable to due to an inability to even speak English and think coherently, never mind physics and maths, which demand coherence.

The issue is not that I cannot answer your questions, I can and have. The issue is that you're utterly unable to understand anything anyone says to you.
DavidD
blink.gif
Do you hard to answer to my question? Do existing quantum computer giving speed up over classical computer? Don't run from my question you don't answer to this question if you answer then show me where blink.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 22 2008, 01:37 PM)
blink.gif
Do you hard to answer to my question? Do existing quantum computer giving speed up over classical computer? Don't run from my question you don't answer to this question if you answer then show me where blink.gif

HE HAS ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, YOU IDIOT!

*smashes head on desk* I find it difficult to believe there exist people as dumb as you and Zarkov dry.gif
DavidD
QUOTE (TheDoc+Mar 22 2008, 06:02 PM)
HE HAS ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, YOU IDIOT!

*smashes head on desk* I find it difficult to believe there exist people as dumb as you and Zarkov dry.gif

Then maybe you can copy->paste his answer? I don't see him answer anythere!!! blink.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (DavidD+Mar 22 2008, 06:48 PM)
Then maybe you can copy->paste his answer? I don't see him answer anythere!!! blink.gif

DavidD you do know>looking not right places?

Hmm maybe he'll understand this....

DAVIDD-YOU NO SEE ANSWER FROM ALPHANUMERIC? IS DUE TO NOT LOOKIING PROPRLEY,OR IS BECASE YUO IS GREATEST FOOL???/.
Edward 3
Hey Doc,
Why don´t you explain it - talk yourself out of that challenge !
edward 3
TheDoc
Edward 3,

Since you can obivously contribute more to physics than I can, why don't you explain it? I'm sure you'd do just fine.

TheDoc
Edward 3

Come on - you´re dodging . You just don´t understand it , do you? Time to put up or shut up, Doc
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