To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: Why Must Creationism And Evolution Conflict?
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > General Sci-Tech Discussions > Creation / Evolution

arpc_01
To say, with any degree of certainty, that these two theories cannot co-exist is pretentious. What do you know about existence?
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 25 2009, 08:52 PM)
To say, with any degree of certainty, that these two theories cannot co-exist is pretentious. What do you know about existence?

One is a theory, one is not.
One is science, the other is not.
One is logical, the other is not.
One is fact, the other is a lie.

What coexistence?
buttershug
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 26 2009, 12:52 AM)
What do you know about existence?

When you get down to it, nothing.
Which is why you have to go with preponderance of evidence and never knowing for sure.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 25 2009, 07:52 PM)
To say, with any degree of certainty, that these two theories cannot co-exist is pretentious. What do you know about existence?

What kind of stupid are you? The "I'm going to say something really idiotic on an internet forum for kicks" kind or the "I really believe this crap" kind?

Creationism states that evolution is false. Therefore, if evolution really happened, then creationism cannot be true. If creation really happened, then evolution cannot be true.

Try thinking for once in your life...
arpc_01
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Oct 26 2009, 01:08 AM)
One is a theory, one is not.
One is science, the other is not.
One is logical, the other is not.
One is fact, the other is a lie.

What coexistence?

Existence is not static, and has proven to often be subjective. How do you know what is truly logical or not? The only logic we know is relative.
rpenner
Young Earth Creationism is a damnable lie straight from Satan which attempts to portray all Christianity as non-thinking cretins who follow anyone who promises to follow the whole word of God and then they never actually check up on the person to see if they do so.

Creationism is not synonymous with Young Earth Creationism, however. But not one religious tradition gets the age of the Earth, of the Universe or of Mankind correct to better than 10%. So when they make these claims they always conflict with science. This includes Evolution, but also Astronomy, Physics, Archeology, Cosmology, Biology, Economics, and sometimes Arithmetic.

If your statement of "Creationism" is so weak as to say God created the universe which then followed Natural Laws with strict precision and lack of bias for good, then there is as yet no conflict between your "Creationism" and science -- even if you say the Natural Laws operate only on the direct decision of God or his agents and may be subject to change at His whim.

Likewise "Creationism" and Evolution are not in conflict if the universe came into being fully intact a second before you wrote that original post. But that would mean Evolution was an invention of God that He Himself inscribed on the world and our memories.

So please define your terms if you want to have a meaningful conversation.
arpc_01
QUOTE (rpenner+Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM)
Young Earth Creationism is a damnable lie straight from Satan which attempts to portray all Christianity as non-thinking cretins who follow anyone who promises to follow the whole word of God and then they never actually check up on the person to see if they do so.

Creationism is not synonymous with Young Earth Creationism, however. But not one religious tradition gets the age of the Earth, of the Universe or of Mankind correct to better than 10%. So when they make these claims they always conflict with science. This includes Evolution, but also Astronomy, Physics, Archeology, Cosmology, Biology, Economics, and sometimes Arithmetic.

If your statement of "Creationism" is so weak as to say God created the universe which then followed Natural Laws with strict precision and lack of bias for good, then there is as yet no conflict between your "Creationism" and science -- even if you say the Natural Laws operate only on the direct decision of God or his agents and may be subject to change at His whim.

Likewise "Creationism" and Evolution are not in conflict if the universe came into being fully intact a second before you wrote that original post. But that would mean Evolution was an invention of God that He Himself inscribed on the world and our memories.

So please define your terms if you want to have a meaningful conversation.

I did not realize that creationism could have such specific connotations, and I apologize for misusing the term. What I meant in the original post:

Creationism: That the universe exists as it is now because god willed it.

God: A force independent of physical reality.

rpenner
Then you are pretty ignorant of the whole evolution vs. creationism conflict which dominated discussion of biological curricula in the US since the 1920's.

Here's a timeline and general outline.

http://ncse.com/creationism/general/creationism-past-present
http://ncse.com/creationism/general/brief-...ory-creationism
http://ncse.com/webfm_send/4
Physfan
QUOTE
Creationism: That the universe exists as it is now because god willed it.

First, find a god, any god will do, then look up the definition of theory. When you have found the first and proved it to exist, then we can discuss the second.

Physfan
buttershug
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 26 2009, 01:17 AM)
Existence is not static, and has proven to often be subjective. How do you know what is truly logical or not? The only logic we know is relative.

It's human understanding of existence that is very much not static.

The map is not the territory.
Capracus
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 26 2009, 03:49 AM)
I did not realize that creationism could have such specific connotations, and I apologize for misusing the term. What I meant in the original post:

Creationism: That the universe exists as it is now because god willed it.

God: A force independent of physical reality.
What other kind of reality is there? From my understanding, such a god could not exist.
TracerTong
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 26 2009, 12:52 AM)
To say, with any degree of certainty, that these two theories cannot co-exist is pretentious. What do you know about existence?

They took out the idea of a global catestrophic flood that occured. I used to be a theistic-evolutionist. Later I found more evidence such as TREX Red Blood Cells online and I decided to stand on the protestant bible as my foundation. Recently they found biological evidences such as nontransitional fossils, and "old" squid ink sacks. They can even speed up fruit fly evolution with radiation - its still a fruit fly.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 26 2009, 10:39 AM)
Later I found more evidence such as TREX Red Blood Cells online and I decided to stand on the protestant bible as my foundation.

See, that's the start of your problems.
QUOTE
Recently they found biological evidences such as nontransitional fossils, and "old" squid ink sacks.

There is no such thing as a non-transitional fossil.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Recently they found biological evidences such as nontransitional fossils, and "old" squid ink sacks.

There is no such thing as a non-transitional fossil.
They can even speed up fruit fly evolution with radiation - its still a fruit fly.

How many generations did they create in this so-called experiment? For a reasonable amount of evolution, you would need 52 million consecutive generations of fruit flies. (1 million years-worth of evolution)
TracerTong
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 26 2009, 01:11 AM)
When you get down to it, nothing.
Which is why you have to go with preponderance of evidence and never knowing for sure.
You keep saying 'we can't know anything'. How do you know that? This [philosphical] view doesn't make sense to me can you explain it, with examples or be more specific? So you know that we can't know?
light in the tunnel
Once upon a time there was an idea of Truth (with a capital "T").

At least this is what relativist critics of absolutism taught.

Then there was tension between the relativists who did not believe in Truth, and the absolutists who would not give in to the Truth of relativism.

Could it be that the next step in this is evolution into the actively conflicting co-existence of Truth with other Truths?

No longer will relativists shirk Truth claims, but they will rather actively defend whatever Truths they recognize and embrace.

Absolutists will do the same, as they always have.

The result will be not pluralism and separation of different and distinct regimes of truth, but rather the never-ending, yet hopefully sustainable, negotiating of conflicting Truths.

The effect will be a perpetual evolution of each Truth as a product of dialogue. The source of dialogue is neither from outside or within the particular Truth-regime, or rather it is both, because the goal is no longer sorting which truth-regime one belongs in, but rather refinement of any Truth through any and all critical challenge that confronts it.

Thus, creationism will have to contend with critical challenge from evolutionists and evolutionism will have to deal with creationist critiques. Of course the most blatantly flag-waving critics will be immediately shot-down by virtue of the flag they fly - so the only critiques that actually stand a chance of inducing dialogue will be the ones that exude sufficient respect for the tenets of the Truth they are critiquing to merit a constructive response.

The irony of this is that by the time a creationist learns enough about evolution to adequately question or critique it, they've become an evolutionist - and the same would be true of evolutionists who gain an adequate understanding of creationism to critique that.

So, no, they need not conflict in the sense that both can be known and discussed (even by the same person) without eradicating either as an idea. But, yes, they must conflict in the sense that they contain references and resistances to each other's claims. But even though many people who post on this forum would probably like to see creationism evaporate into non-existence, that will not happen - nor will phenotypical continuity or fossils cease to be interesting just because you finally understand the ideological purpose and Truth of creationism in the context in which it is useful.

"God created fossils" is no more useful a claim than is "God doesn't exist because I can't find him outside myself." Both are explanations of artifacts in terms of the non-relevant discourse. The only way to gain useful knowledge from any discourse is to examine it critically in its own terms. Applying critique using criteria from a different discourse will undermine it certainly, but will not produce any useful understanding of it in the terms that it functions as human knowledge.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 26 2009, 11:44 AM)
Absolutists will do the same, as they always have.

My! What an amazing straw-man you have!
QUOTE
Thus, creationism will have to contend with critical challenge from evolutionists and evolutionism will have to deal with creationist critiques.

I have yet to hear one single creationist argument that didn't center around a logical fallacy or an argument from ignorance. If you disagree, why don't you go ahead and post some creationist arguments and see how long it will take for us to utterly destroy them.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Thus, creationism will have to contend with critical challenge from evolutionists and evolutionism will have to deal with creationist critiques.

I have yet to hear one single creationist argument that didn't center around a logical fallacy or an argument from ignorance. If you disagree, why don't you go ahead and post some creationist arguments and see how long it will take for us to utterly destroy them.
and the same would be true of evolutionists who gain an adequate understanding of creationism to critique that.

Give one example.


Your arguments don't consist of facts or logic, but only emotion. You think that it's unfair that science has the monopoly on logic. This is because if other people were logical, they would agree with science!
TracerTong
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Oct 26 2009, 03:02 PM)
See, that's the start of your problems.

There is no such thing as a non-transitional fossil.

How many generations did they create in this so-called experiment? For a reasonable amount of evolution, you would need 52 million consecutive generations of fruit flies. (1 million years-worth of evolution)

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just telling you what I believe. I don't believe that nothing created everything or that we evolved from molecules and nothing. I believe I was created. If you get upset maybe wait a day before you respond. Have a good one. By nontransitional fossil, I meant the octopus fossil thats supposedly millions of years old and still an octopus. Here are the biological examples: T-rex DNA and red blood cells: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/ or the dinasaur mummies such as leonardo, or Lyuba whooly mammoth: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/epis...h-3630/Overview

Octopus fossil: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...il-picture.html

A 150 million year old squid still has ink? http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/20090...from-its-i.html
buttershug
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 26 2009, 03:06 PM)
You keep saying 'we can't know anything'. How do you know that? This [philosphical] view doesn't make sense to me can you explain it, with examples or be more specific? So you know that we can't know?

The best way to argue when someone says that something does not exist is to give a counterexample.

What can we know?

And as far as you believing you were created, do you acknowledge that there is no evidence or reason to believe such other than comfort?
Goofus A Gallant
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 26 2009, 04:07 PM)
I'm not trying to argue, I'm just telling you what I believe. I don't believe that nothing created everything or that we evolved from molecules and nothing. I believe I was created.

So you believe that nothing created god and (s)he created everything. How is that different?
TracerTong
QUOTE (Goofus A Gallant+Oct 26 2009, 04:20 PM)
So you believe that nothing created god and (s)he created everything. How is that different?

I try to walk in/with love. Death, Disease, Disability, and Divorce: I can seek Him (love) and am learning to love in life. It better explains reality such as the spiritual, information, etc. I could choose to ignore Him. I depend on love(sacrifice). I have a direction -- love.
TracerTong
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 26 2009, 04:31 PM)
I try to walk in/with love.  Death, Disease, Disability, and Divorce:  I can seek Him (love) and am learning to love in  life.  It better explains reality such as the spiritual, information, etc.  I could choose to ignore Him.  I depend on love(sacrifice).  I have a direction -- love.

I should have stated better love helps me to better cope with Death, Disease, Disability, and Divorce. I believe - by faith God (Jesus) loves me.
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Oct 26 2009, 03:50 PM)
My! What an amazing straw-man you have!

I have yet to hear one single creationist argument that didn't center around a logical fallacy or an argument from ignorance. If you disagree, why don't you go ahead and post some creationist arguments and see how long it will take for us to utterly destroy them.

Give one example.


Your arguments don't consist of facts or logic, but only emotion. You think that it's unfair that science has the monopoly on logic. This is because if other people were logical, they would agree with science!

Since you didn't seem to make it to the last sentence of my previous post, I'll quote it for you:

Applying critique using criteria from a different discourse will undermine it certainly, but will not produce any useful understanding of it in the terms that it functions as human knowledge.

I know that emotion forms the basis for many arguments. I even know that it is the impetus behind people's application of logic in many cases. But my belief in God has a logical basis. It's just that you deem it illogical. Here it is again below. Please explain to me what is illogical about it:

1) I believe that God does not exist in the physical universe. Therefore I am an atheist.
2) Because I apply my disbelief in God's physical existence to my TOTAL experience of the universe, including the realm of my own knowledge, I must acknowledge that God DOES exist as knowledge within me.
3) Therefore, because I acknowledge that my knowledge is included within the set of all things existing in the universe, God must be acknowledged to exist in the universe, since the idea of Him exists within me, and I exist in the universe.
4) The idea of God is not limited to existing as my knowledge alone. It exists within the bible and other texts, within the knowledge and beliefs of other people, within spoken and written speeches and sermons everywhere. Even atheism must know "God" in order to reject the idea of His existence.
5) Therefore the idea of God is practically ubiquitous. God is everywhere.
6) Included in the idea of God is the possibility of unlimited creative power. One possibility of such creative power is the power of faith, to not only recognize the idea of God but to invest in this idea with one's full spiritual potential.
7) Therefore if the idea of God exists, and the possibility of total faith exists within me, then it becomes possible to have total faith in the existence and power of God.
8) If I exercise total faith in the existence and power of God, then I have the power to attribute this power to His grace and submit to His will - all from the perspective of a humanistic approach to exploring the full potential of the human experience.

What's illogical about that?
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 26 2009, 11:41 AM)
What's illogical about that?

To start with, point 3 contradicts point 1...
buttershug
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 26 2009, 04:41 PM)
3) Therefore, because I acknowledge that my knowledge is included within the set of all things existing in the universe, God must be acknowledged to exist in the universe, since the idea of Him exists within me, and I exist in the universe.


What's illogical about that?

And the same can be said about Yoda.

The idea of him exists in you as well, and you exist in the Universe.
rpenner
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 26 2009, 02:39 PM)
They can even speed up fruit fly evolution with radiation - its still a fruit fly.

Then you don't understand Taxonomy -- for humans are still great apes (Hominidae), great apes are still apes (Hominoidea), apes are still monkeys (Simiiformes), monkeys are still Primates, Primates are still placentas (Eutheria), plancentas are still mammals (Mammalia), mammals are still tetrapods (Tetrapoda), and tetrapods are still fish (Euteleostomi).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Brows...tax.cgi?id=7776

This, of course, reflects a type of branching pattern between species where if you group species by innovative features they automatically form into phylogenetic trees, even as in original Linnaean Taxonomy where you have no access to genetics or the theory of evolution. Innovation is largely preserved between the branches, and while similar innovations happen in different subtrees, they can still be distinguished.

And that is the subject of Neil Shubin's Your Inner Fish. Among the health problems humans suffer, many can be traced to preserved innovations, perhaps tweaked and modified, but never done over from scratch by an all-knowing designer, to

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2125,n,n
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0375424474

A descendent of a population of fruit flies that ate cat eyeballs and had a brain the size of a whale's would still be a fruit fly. And there are a whole lot of "fruit flies" which aren't Drosophila melanogaster.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Brows...tax.cgi?id=7215

Finally, populations of Drosophila melanogaster do evolve means of reproductive isolation, which will cause the populations to diverge in allele frequencies and innovation.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910_1.html
http://www.pnas.org/content/97/23/12637.full



occidental
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 26 2009, 03:44 PM)


The irony of this is that by the time a creationist learns enough about evolution to adequately question or critique it, they've become an evolutionist - and the same would be true of evolutionists who gain an adequate understanding of creationism to critique that.


Bullshit.
Goofus A Gallant
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 26 2009, 04:39 PM)
I should have stated better love helps me to better cope with Death, Disease, Disability, and Divorce. I believe - by faith God (Jesus) loves me.

I don't have any problems with death, disease or anything else you listed. I accept them as part of reality. Death awaits us all - and it doesn't frighten me.

I also have love. Of others and for others...

I don't see the connection.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Goofus A Gallant+Oct 26 2009, 02:53 PM)
Death awaits us all

Suit yourself, I plan to live forever tongue.gif
Goofus A Gallant
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Oct 26 2009, 06:56 PM)
Suit yourself, I plan to live forever tongue.gif

So far - so good. tongue.gif
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 26 2009, 04:57 PM)
And the same can be said about Yoda.

The idea of him exists in you as well, and you exist in the Universe.

Exist in him, he does.

biggrin.gif
Physfan
QUOTE
1) I believe that God does not exist in the physical universe. Therefore I am an atheist.
2) Because I apply my disbelief in God's physical existence to my TOTAL experience of the universe, including the realm of my own knowledge, I must acknowledge that God DOES exist as knowledge within me.
3) Therefore, because I acknowledge that my knowledge is included within the set of all things existing in the universe, God must be acknowledged to exist in the universe, since the idea of Him exists within me, and I exist in the universe.
4) The idea of God is not limited to existing as my knowledge alone. It exists within the bible and other texts, within the knowledge and beliefs of other people, within spoken and written speeches and sermons everywhere. Even atheism must know "God" in order to reject the idea of His existence.
5) Therefore the idea of God is practically ubiquitous. God is everywhere.
6) Included in the idea of God is the possibility of unlimited creative power. One possibility of such creative power is the power of faith, to not only recognize the idea of God but to invest in this idea with one's full spiritual potential.
7) Therefore if the idea of God exists, and the possibility of total faith exists within me, then it becomes possible to have total faith in the existence and power of God.
8) If I exercise total faith in the existence and power of God, then I have the power to attribute this power to His grace and submit to His will - all from the perspective of a humanistic approach to exploring the full potential of the human experience.

What's illogical about that?

Seriously, if you can't see it, it is pointless to try to explain ANYTHING to you. The logic is circular. If A leads to B and B leads to C then C must lead to A? Plato must be turning in his grave!

Physfan
uaafanblog
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 26 2009, 01:17 AM)
Existence is not static, and has proven to often be subjective. How do you know what is truly logical or not? The only logic we know is relative.


I usually read a whole thread before responding but I can't go past this without immediate comment. Allow me to take it one sentence at a time ... I considered breaking up by phrases but for the sake of efficiency here goes:

QUOTE
Existence is not static, and has proven to often be subjective.

No rational person in the history of humanity has ever suggested anything so utterly drenched in bovine excrement.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Existence is not static, and has proven to often be subjective.

No rational person in the history of humanity has ever suggested anything so utterly drenched in bovine excrement.

How do you know what is truly logical or not?

I didn't think it was possible to surpass the stupidity of your first sentence. Congratulations.

QUOTE
The only logic we know is relative.

I honestly haven't read the next post from our esteemed moderator. If you aren't permanently banned for this trifecta of ignorance that alone is proof of the quantum nature of our universe. It is only through some random convergence of billions of variables that you should be allowed to continue posting in this forum. In other words ... if rpenner hasn't banned you then it's proof that God doesn't exist.
uaafanblog
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 26 2009, 03:44 PM)
Once upon a time there was ... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... functions as human knowledge.

I left the words in the quote above which made sense. Everything between, I replaced with words which make as much sense as the ones you wrote. Nothing in what you said was in any manner coherent or relevant. It was all the same sort of ridiculous self-invented sophistry as the other idiot spewed. How someone can be generally correct grammatically, spell properly but still not communicate ANYTHING is beyond me.

BAN ALL SOPHISTS!
Capracus
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 26 2009, 04:41 PM)
Therefore the idea of God is practically ubiquitous.  God is everywhere.
The idea of a god doesn't equate to a presently functional god. The idea of bedding Angelina Jolie is ubiquitous, yet she manages to avoid a bow-legged gait.

QUOTE
If I exercise total faith in the existence and power of God, then I have the power to attribute this power to His grace and submit to His will - all from the perspective of a humanistic approach to exploring the full potential of the human experience.

What's illogical about that?
The image of the god you profess your faith in defies logic. If such a god existed, faith would be the last quality necessary.

Try this logic on for size:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
arpc_01
QUOTE (Capracus+Oct 27 2009, 12:33 PM)
The idea of a god doesn't equate to a presently functional god. The idea of bedding Angelina Jolie is ubiquitous, yet she manages to avoid a bow-legged gait.

The image of the god you profess your faith in defies logic. If such a god existed, faith would be the last quality necessary.

Try this logic on for size:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

QUOTE
The idea of a god doesn't equate to a presently functional god.


What makes you so sure of that? Humans have a tendency to manifest their ideas as reality. Like, if you build a house.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 27 2009, 11:32 AM)
What makes you so sure of that? Humans have a tendency to manifest their ideas as reality. Like, if you build a house.

I have the idea that you are a complete retard who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Oh look, I just proved you right...


Seriously. Drizzt Do'Urden is an idea, but he doesn't exist. James Bond is an idea, but he doesn't exist. King Kong is an idea, but it doesn't exist. The Loch Ness Monster, dragons, vampires, fairies (the kind with wings, not the kind with fabulous fashion sense), Xanadu, Atlantis, the healing powers of acupuncture... They're all ideas, yet none exist in reality.
You're just plain stupid. You can't accept that your logic is faulty and that you're almost certainly wrong about a great number of things, so you sit here and adopt this over-simplistic view of subjective reality in order to argue that your views are as valid as anyone else's. Well, they're not.

At the end of the day, when it's you vs. a serial killer, the serial killer's knife is going to cut right through God's protection and show you the color of your insides.
Capracus
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 27 2009, 04:32 PM)


What makes you so sure of that? Humans have a tendency to manifest their ideas as reality. Like, if you build a house.
I don't deny that idea driven technology can result in godlike entities, but until such wizards are born into, or invade our sphere of detection, they will remain the subjects of fantasy.

MisterBelfry
QUOTE (Rpenner+Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM)
Young Earth Creationism is a damnable lie straight from Satan which attempts to portray all Christianity as non-thinking cretins who follow anyone who promises to follow the whole word of God and then they never actually check up on the person to see if they do so.

Creationism is not synonymous with Young Earth Creationism, however. But not one religious tradition gets the age of the Earth, of the Universe or of Mankind correct to better than 10%. ...

POINT A.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?&showtopic=22842&st=16 @ page2
&view=findpost&p=368434
Evolution sucks.

However, I probably should note this as well from the same page 488.

"The Neoproterozoic glaciogenic sequences are overlain by thick caps of carbonate specifically meters to tens of meters of dolostone and limestone. These are thought to represent the rain-out and subsequent carbonate precipitation of inorganic carbon that had built up in the atmosphere and ocean (Hoffman et.al. 1998). These cap rocks are usually found above sequences showing glacial disturbance and are geographically widespread implying a global-scale process. The rocks indicate rapid depositional processes and severe perturbation of the global carbon cycle (Hoffman et.al. 1998)."


Evolution has the build-up of inorganic carbon as slow. Devolution goes much faster. It would have to if God's re-creation week is to scale.


MrB.
An Oct. 2009 ADDITION
Issue #2728 of the New Scientist notes, "Oddly enough, the climatic turmoil of the thermal maximum led to very little loss of biodiveristiy. "Nobody has ever picked the Palaeocene-Eocene boundary as a major extinction interval. It's not even in the second tier," says Scott Wing, a palaeobotanist at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC." Was that because it was a walk in the park coming off the Ark?



QUOTE (Rpenner+Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM)

Young Earth Creationism is a damnable lie straight from Satan which attempts to portray all Christianity as non-thinking cretins who follow anyone who promises to follow the whole word of God and then they never actually check up on the person to see if they do so.
POINT B.

Posted in Showtopic 24170, @ p=405109: MisterBelfry March 7 2009{with correction}, 01:16 PM

"I found it significant that Creationists concentrated their defense of Genesis 1:1-19 on the age of Planet Earth, but not on its place. Yet where in the text of Genesis, or for that matter in the whole Bible, is there even the faintest hint that God, having created the Earth in the beginning, demoted it on the fourth day to one spinning, whirling and cork-screwing lump of matter out of many?..."

in PDF:
for the file http://hometown.aol.com/thomasaquinas87/or...pdf/galileo.pdf
<--------------------showtopic= 22842--------

QUOTE (Rpenner+Oct 26 2009, 03:27 AM)


Creationism is not synonymous with Young Earth Creationism, however. But not one religious tradition gets the age of the Earth, of the Universe or of Mankind correct to better than 10%. So when they make these claims they always conflict with science. This includes Evolution, but also Astronomy, Physics, Archeology, Cosmology, Biology, Economics, and sometimes Arithmetic.
POINT C.

Showtopic 24170, @ p=404915
The working model of Devolution by means of Supernatural Selection (as I would like to see it) puts that boundary[conditions for mega-growth] in the Cretaceous. Others in effect deny the geologic column much authority and therefore only ONE ice age happened and it is NOW.
They would say the Flood story with Noah as head of the last and first family accounted for much of the column for a young Earth. I unfortunately still remain agnostic to the Earth's age: geology proposes | physics disposes
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Oct 27 2009, 05:39 PM)
I have the idea that you are a complete retard who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Oh look, I just proved you right...


Seriously. Drizzt Do'Urden is an idea, but he doesn't exist. James Bond is an idea, but he doesn't exist. King Kong is an idea, but it doesn't exist. The Loch Ness Monster, dragons, vampires, fairies (the kind with wings, not the kind with fabulous fashion sense), Xanadu, Atlantis, the healing powers of acupuncture... They're all ideas, yet none exist in reality.
You're just plain stupid. You can't accept that your logic is faulty and that you're almost certainly wrong about a great number of things, so you sit here and adopt this over-simplistic view of subjective reality in order to argue that your views are as valid as anyone else's. Well, they're not. 

The ironic thing about your post is that each of these fictional entities in fact does exist AS FICTIONS in the mind of their creators and the perceptions of viewers. The fact that humans have the power to distinguish factual from fictional entities is further proof of the power of mind over matter.

One of my favorite lines from Star Wars is when Yoda says that the future is always hard to see because it's always in motion. It's a very simple metaphor and very true, if you believe in the determination of will over fate. I don't know if this idea is taken from another philosophy or not. I do strongly believe that Yoda is a puppet that his character is not based on a real person. Still, I like the quote and think the wisdom is valuable. So what does it matter whether Yoda is responsible for this quote or George Lucas? The wisdom remains the same, doesn't it?
uaafanblog
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 01:27 AM)
I don't know if this idea is taken from "_______" or not.

This should be your mantra. You should include it as a preamble to everything you post. You post nothing but imaginings and do so with perfect examples of sophistry.

You should be banned.
buttershug
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 01:27 AM)
The ironic thing about your post is that each of these fictional entities in fact does exist AS FICTIONS in the mind of their creators and the perceptions of viewers. The fact that humans have the power to distinguish factual from fictional entities is further proof of the power of mind over matter.

One of my favorite lines from Star Wars is when Yoda says that the future is always hard to see because it's always in motion. It's a very simple metaphor and very true, if you believe in the determination of will over fate. I don't know if this idea is taken from another philosophy or not. I do strongly believe that Yoda is a puppet that his character is not based on a real person. Still, I like the quote and think the wisdom is valuable. So what does it matter whether Yoda is responsible for this quote or George Lucas? The wisdom remains the same, doesn't it?

Do you distinguish between God and Yoda?
Is Yoda as real to you as God is?



Capracus
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 01:27 AM)
I do strongly believe that Yoda is a puppet that his character is not based on a real person.
O ye, of little faith, the puppet is the vehicle George Lucas used to represent Yoda in the Sar Wars films, the real Yoda is a spirit resident of the Force.
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 28 2009, 01:43 AM)
Do you distinguish between God and Yoda?
Is Yoda as real to you as God is?

I judge wisdom on the basis of content, not source.

If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too.

The discussion this keeps leading to is what the significance is that God created the angel that became Satan, and the possibility of evil itself.

My theory is that it has to do with the creation of the ego and its ability to conceptualize its own good in opposition to the good of others.

This possibility is inherent in the idea of God creating entities with distinct will-power from His own, such as angels and humans. Once a being (God or whoever) creates beings and endows them with total autonomy of will and access to power of the creator, the creation has the ability to use its will to go against and dominate, i.e. compete, with the creator. So it is a logical part of the mythology of divine creation that a moment would come when the creation would try this, and that would be the first moment when the creator's love of the creation would result in destructive competition.

If Yoda would use his wisdom and mastery of the force to take over the universe, he would become Satan, wouldn't he? Actually, this is exactly what going to the dark side of the force means, isn't it? That's why Luke has the vision in the cave of destroying himself by killing Vader, and why the emperor encourages him to destroy Vader and take his place at the emperor's side. The dark side of the force is temptation to react to destruction with destruction and become evil yourself by doing so. Although this seems only tangentially related to the evil project of constructing a death star to dominate the universe through terror. Hmm, it must be too late for my brain to sort this stuff out - maybe a conspiracy of evolution to invent the need for sleep smile.gif
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 02:44 AM)
I judge wisdom on the basis of content, not source.


If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too.

The source is human. Kindly resist degrading our species further, unless you have some genuine evidence to back up your claims.

Capracus
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 02:44 AM)
I judge wisdom on the basis of content, not source.
What is it about the content of ancient mythology that compels you to use it to explain the order of our existence?

QUOTE
If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too.

The discussion this keeps leading to is what the significance is that God created the angel that became Satan, and the possibility of evil itself.
We know biblical authors resorted to mysticism because their ignorance gave them no choice. We know that George Lucas used it in his storyline for commercial gain. As a presumably well educated 21st century individual, what's your excuse?

light in the tunnel
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Oct 28 2009, 03:28 AM)
The source is human. Kindly resist degrading our species further, unless you have some genuine evidence to back up your claims.

You are degrading your individual potential by reducing yourself to a species-reference that doesn't even acknowledge the capacity to create the mythology of a creator (in its own image) that creates in His own image.

If you have the imaginative power to look in the mirror and see the image of a person looking at his reflection in the mirror, then why can't you understand the idea of humans creating the image of a creator who created them in His own image?

The human imagination/spirit is the proof of the power it has to create a mythology of itself as its own creator. What's degrading about it?
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (Capracus+Oct 28 2009, 03:47 AM)
What is it about the content of ancient mythology that compels you to use it to explain the order of our existence?


I am not compelled to use biblical mythology any more than any other knowledge to explain anything. But if by "the order of our existence," you mean the purpose of life, then I would say that science doesn't offer any insight into the purpose of life, only the mechanics.

Was it Nietzche who wanted to go beyond good and evil and proclaimed that God was dead? I tried to explore consciousness without good and evil, but I couldn't get over the stumbling block that it wasn't necessarily good to do so. I suppose you could explore the path of pure mechanical determinism and inevitable compulsion to act without free will at all, which would make assessments of good and evil useless, or perhaps they could be rendered a system of behavioral rewards and punishments in a command-control system. I just personally wouldn't want to turn myself into a robot or give up faith in free will, because I think doing so would itself be damaging to mental health.

QUOTE
We know biblical authors resorted to mysticism because their ignorance gave them no choice. We know that George Lucas used it in his storyline for commercial gain. As a presumably well educated 21st century individual, what's your excuse?

Correction: you know that Lucas gained commercially with Star Wars, but do you have proof that this was the primary purpose and that he wasn't say, using the commercial format to spread a positive ideology to the God-forsaking masses?

I agree with you that mysticism and cryptic language generally is not as good as very direct, explicit explanation. The only reason I'll defend the biblical language and stories is that they compress lots of deep meaning into relatively less words. So, efficiency is the defense I would give for it. I don't know if the whole bible is like this, though. Parts of it seem to go on and on with little or no purpose, and I can't tell if it's just lost relevance or if it ever had it or if I just don't get it yet. Some parts of it, though, take a lot of convoluted language to explain explicitly in detail, so the original text is actually more efficient and easier to read than a less cryptic or mystic version would be.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 04:25 AM)


QUOTE
You are degrading your individual potential by reducing yourself to a species-reference that doesn't even acknowledge the capacity to create the mythology of a creator (in its own image) that creates in His own image.


It is not degrading to be a species, part of the complex tapestry of life, connected to all other living organisms. A species capable of creating complex mythologies about it's own origins. The only difference between this and what George Lucas did was that George acknowledges that his work is fiction.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You are degrading your individual potential by reducing yourself to a species-reference that doesn't even acknowledge the capacity to create the mythology of a creator (in its own image) that creates in His own image.


It is not degrading to be a species, part of the complex tapestry of life, connected to all other living organisms. A species capable of creating complex mythologies about it's own origins. The only difference between this and what George Lucas did was that George acknowledges that his work is fiction.

The human imagination/spirit is the proof of the power it has to create a mythology of itself as its own creator.  What's degrading about it?


It is not degrading to acknowledge the power of the human imagination. It is degrading to suggest as you clearly did that, and I quote, "If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too." It is you that degrades the power of human imagination (Or possibly degrade the concept of god)

And besides, if god is in everything then he/she/it was also the mastermind behind every genocide. Can we not absolve the human perpetrators of any wrong doing, yes, no?
Matador
QUOTE
if god is in everything then he/she/it was also the mastermind behind every genocide



Heh, you forgot, it gave us choice, so we can't blame it. tongue.gif sarcasm intended
buttershug
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 02:44 AM)
I judge wisdom on the basis of content, not source.

If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too.

You didn't answer the question.
I don't think you even understood it.

Let's try again.
Do you think one day it might be possible for you talk with God.
Do you think one day it might be possible for you talk with Yoda.


Or another way do you distinguish between Yoda and Abraham Lincoln?
Capracus
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 04:42 AM)
I am not compelled to use biblical mythology any more than any other knowledge to explain anything.  But if by "the order of our existence," you mean the purpose of life, then I would say that science doesn't offer any insight into the purpose of life, only the mechanics.
How can humanity know where its going without verifying where its been? And how would you accomplish this task without the sciences? The flow of knowledge from the sciences at any point of time can only explain so much, those left unsatisfied by this limitation resort to mysticism to fill the void. Through the passage of recorded history this balance has slowly shifted in favor of science as the mystic illusions progressively evaporate. I use illusion to describe the mystic view because it has never failed to fail when it comes to explaining our condition. Mysticism is a vacuum waiting to be filled with the knowledge provided by science.

QUOTE
Was it Nietzche who wanted to go beyond good and evil and proclaimed that God was dead?  I tried to explore consciousness without good and evil, but I couldn't get over the stumbling block that it wasn't necessarily good to do so.  I suppose you could explore the path of pure mechanical determinism and inevitable compulsion to act without free will at all, which would make assessments of good and evil useless, or perhaps they could be rendered a system of behavioral rewards and punishments in a command-control system.  I just personally wouldn't want to turn myself into a robot or give up faith in free will, because I think doing so would itself be damaging to mental health.
Good and evil are elements of social evolution. They are to our social existence, as specific gases and nutrients are to our physiological state.

A determined existence with our limited nervous function is in a practical sense indeterminable, although as time progresses and our sensory capabilities increase, that balance incrementally shifts to reveal the deterministic reality.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Was it Nietzche who wanted to go beyond good and evil and proclaimed that God was dead?  I tried to explore consciousness without good and evil, but I couldn't get over the stumbling block that it wasn't necessarily good to do so.  I suppose you could explore the path of pure mechanical determinism and inevitable compulsion to act without free will at all, which would make assessments of good and evil useless, or perhaps they could be rendered a system of behavioral rewards and punishments in a command-control system.  I just personally wouldn't want to turn myself into a robot or give up faith in free will, because I think doing so would itself be damaging to mental health.
Good and evil are elements of social evolution. They are to our social existence, as specific gases and nutrients are to our physiological state.

A determined existence with our limited nervous function is in a practical sense indeterminable, although as time progresses and our sensory capabilities increase, that balance incrementally shifts to reveal the deterministic reality.

Correction: you know that Lucas gained commercially with Star Wars, but do you have proof that this was the primary purpose and that he wasn't say, using the commercial format to spread a positive ideology to the God-forsaking masses?
George Lucas was in the business of making movies to support himself and his employees. His formula for success was to be innovative, and to tell stories that would have mass appeal. It wasn't a matter of spreading an ideology, but rather resonating with the existing ideology of the time, that and satisfying an appetite for action and special effects is what sold the films.

QUOTE
I agree with you that mysticism and cryptic language generally is not as good as very direct, explicit explanation.  The only reason I'll defend the biblical language and stories is that they compress lots of deep meaning into relatively less words.  So, efficiency is the defense I would give for it.  I don't know if the whole bible is like this, though.  Parts of it seem to go on and on with little or no purpose, and I can't tell if it's just lost relevance or if it ever had it or if I just don't get it yet.  Some parts of it, though, take a lot of convoluted language to explain explicitly in detail, so the original text is actually more efficient and easier to read than a less cryptic or mystic version would be.
Religion and mythology are nothing more than exercises in sociology, with varying degrees of mysticism thrown in to give cover for contemporary ignorance.
MisterBelfry
The opening poster asked, "What do you know abut existence?" in an apparent attempt to see a little more harmony about origin stories.
And in three and half hours from that opening post, the moderator, His DipWaddedNess, picked 1920 as some artificial start of the conflict.

Of course, origin stories are as old as the hills, which is really the question. How old are those proverbial hills?

I hate being so ignorant. But in this point I think Mark Twain was right, "We come now to the geological part. This is the one where the evidence is not all in, yet. It is coming in, hourly, daily, coming in all the time, but naturally it comes with geological carefulness and deliberation, and we must not be impatient, we must not get excited, we must be calm, and wait. To lose our tranquility will not hurry geology; nothing hurries geology."


The reason I think nearly all active proponents of either evolutionism or creationism can't get along is because it is easier to pick a side then go from ignorance to more ignorance.

MrB.
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Co...9/msg00041.html
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Oct 28 2009, 05:14 AM)







Reducing the uniqueness of an individual organism to being just an iteration of species is reductive, and thereby potentially degrading. How would you feel if your best friend or your spouse said that they just needed a human to listen to them or help with the household expenses. You wouldn't feel very valued as an individual, would you?

I believe the distinction between history and fiction was only invented in the 19th century as a result of proliferation of printed literature. Before that I think that no such classification as "fiction" existed. I've heard this from more than one historiographer.

QUOTE
It is not degrading to acknowledge the power of the human imagination. It is degrading to suggest as you clearly did that, and I quote, "If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too."  It is you that degrades the power of human imagination (Or possibly degrade the concept of god)

Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't. I see Yoda's quote about the future being difficult to see because it is always in motion as extremely insightful, comparable to any professional philosophical wisdom. I see it as a testament to genius that Lucas was able to get people who would rather watch hours of infomercial than to open a philosophy book to focus their attention for 6 hours, and that is just the first three movies!

If you truly associate God with the idea of goodness, He is in everything good, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Did you see the latest version of Charlotte's Web? Fern's mother asks the doctor if he thinks the writing in the web is a miracle. The doctors response is that the web itself is a miracle. "Can you make one?" he asks her. "No, but I can make a doily," she answers. "But someone taught you how," he says, "no one taught the spider . . . don't you think that's a miracle?" Don't you think it's a miracle that someone can make a book or movie that conveys this concept to even people with low educational level and attention limits?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It is not degrading to acknowledge the power of the human imagination. It is degrading to suggest as you clearly did that, and I quote, "If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too."  It is you that degrades the power of human imagination (Or possibly degrade the concept of god)

Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't. I see Yoda's quote about the future being difficult to see because it is always in motion as extremely insightful, comparable to any professional philosophical wisdom. I see it as a testament to genius that Lucas was able to get people who would rather watch hours of infomercial than to open a philosophy book to focus their attention for 6 hours, and that is just the first three movies!

If you truly associate God with the idea of goodness, He is in everything good, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Did you see the latest version of Charlotte's Web? Fern's mother asks the doctor if he thinks the writing in the web is a miracle. The doctors response is that the web itself is a miracle. "Can you make one?" he asks her. "No, but I can make a doily," she answers. "But someone taught you how," he says, "no one taught the spider . . . don't you think that's a miracle?" Don't you think it's a miracle that someone can make a book or movie that conveys this concept to even people with low educational level and attention limits?

And besides, if god is in everything then he/she/it was also the mastermind behind every genocide. Can we not absolve the human perpetrators of any wrong doing, yes, no?

God gave humans the power to kill, I think, yes - even though He gave the commandment later not to kill. I think that only God can ultimately absolve human perpetrators of any wrong doing, through themselves. Someone else can forgive you, but can you ever forgive yourself? People who don't believe in forgiveness or shirk it are more likely, imo, to view their own wrong doing (or "sins" as I like to call them) as unforgivable and burn with shame, guilt, and fear of reprisal. People who learn to forgive others and accept the salvation of God's forgiveness (I won't say "through Jesus Christ" although it's tempting) through personal confession to Him, are theoretically less likely to have an aching, "burning" conscience and succumb to all the temptations that come with shame.

People avoid confessing and accepting forgiveness, though, because they know that it comes with the price of making a sincere effort to avoid sin in the future, and they aren't quite ready to give up sin yet - so they go on bearing the cross of shame, fear, and unforgiveness.

This is the way I understand it, anyway.

Goofus A Gallant
If you can't forgive yourself, then can you truly forgive someone else?
buttershug
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 03:23 PM)
Reducing the uniqueness of an individual organism to being just an iteration of species is reductive, and thereby potentially degrading.

So what?
The question is, is it accurate?

Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 03:23 PM)

Reducing the uniqueness of an individual organism to being just an iteration of species is reductive, and thereby potentially degrading.  How would you feel if your best friend or your spouse said that they just needed a human to listen to them or help with the household expenses.  You wouldn't feel very valued as an individual, would you?


My point is that the wisdom was forged in a human brain or brains. There is no reason to credit any gods. It is degrading to suggest that humans are not capable of wisdom on their own.
As for your other strange point, have you never heard the phrase, "I just want someone to listen to me"?
A someone meaning a fellow human being?

QUOTE
Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet?  You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't. 


No, see above. Who said Star Wars was rubbish?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet?  You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't. 


No, see above. Who said Star Wars was rubbish?

If you truly associate God with the idea of goodness, He is in everything good, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant.


Oh, so now you have demoted god from being in everything to only everything good. How convenient for you. Who is responsible for all the bad stuff then?

QUOTE
God gave humans the power to kill, I think, yes - even though He gave the commandment later not to kill.  I think that only God can ultimately absolve human perpetrators of any wrong doing, through themselves.


Oops, you did it again. Humans have evolved the capability to kill without the need for any gods to grant them the ability. Ants kill, did god give them that power too?

buttershug
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 03:23 PM)
Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't.

No it's because he sees Yoda as fiction and make believe.
And you havn't given any reason why God is more real than Yoda.
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 28 2009, 04:04 PM)
So what?
The question is, is it accurate?

The "so what?" sounds rhetorical and I've explained it in other posts.

Is it accurate to attribute action to a "species" or other collective image is the better question. I would say that it is less accurate to sum up specifics in a collectivized or generalized representation than it is to treat them as specific details. The problem is that cognition and representational media have complexity-limitations that result in an interest in reductionism.

Moving between the level of representation used to describe direct empirical observations and the level of generality and macro-abstraction used in certain kinds of theorizing does result in losses of accuracy and distortions. If you say, for example, that humans as a species created the idea of God, does that translate into each human individual contributed equally to its creation? Probably not, but it depends on what you mean by "contribute" "creation" and "God." If by "God" you just mean, say, knowledge of the possibility of truth, then you could say that every human individual contributes to the idea or existence of God by knowing the possibility of truth, but if you don't define God that way, then you could argue according to the specific aspect of divinity you are talking about.

Is it as accurate to talk about a species as a collective than details of specific actions of individual organisms, even if it is something that all individuals are assumed to share? No, it's still more accurate to say that "an individual labeled as Cordata has a spine" than it is to say that "the species has spines," because the logical extrapolation between conglomerate representation and individual is not left up to interpretation. The exception would be if you are talking about the species as an ideological concept apart from its application/projection on observed organisms, in which case you could say that "[the classification] Cordata contains the criteria of having a spine," but in practice people are always mixing up talking about the classification at the ideal level with talking about it as a way of representing the material entities it's supposed to apply to.

I think you could devote an entire branch of science philosophy to the slippage between these two forms of representation. The problem is that there probably already is such a branch, or maybe several, and they are all buried in libraries and other largely unvisited venues. Now, getting peer-reviewers to pay attention to this and control for it in research and publication - that would be quite a feat.

Empirically, you can observe an individual organism or entity. You cannot empirically observe multiple individuals as one. Just like you can empirically observe a single star, but you can't empirically observe a constellation. The constellation only exists as a cognitive-concept projected onto empirically observed phenomena. The words, "species" or "constellation" are themselves accurate for what they describe, but inaccurate if they are taken to describe physical entities directly instead of synthetic conceptual abstractions, which is what they are.

Is that an acceptable answer?
buttershug
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 04:35 PM)
Is that an acceptable answer?

Not in the context of this forum.

Basically some insults are true.
And this forum is about accuracy as it is about anything.
rpenner
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 28 2009, 04:56 PM)
And this forum is about accuracy as it is about anything.

I would have to agree with this.
light in the tunnel
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 28 2009, 04:56 PM)
Not in the context of this forum.

Basically some insults are true.
And this forum is about accuracy as it is about anything.

Is this a reply to what I posted? I can't tell from reading it. All you do is say the forum is about accuracy, but what are you saying about accuracy in language itself? Are claims made in reference to a "species" more accurate in your assessment than claims made about a specific individual organism?
arpc_01
Wow, 5 pages of bitching at each other. You people take yourselves terribly serious.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 29 2009, 11:49 AM)
Wow, 5 pages of bitching at each other. You people take yourselves terribly serious.

No, "we people" take honesty, science, integrity and factual accuracy seriously.
We take ourselves with the usual mix of humor and seriousness, and take cranks and wackjobs as objects of our amusement.
MisterBelfry

QUOTE
Is it accurate to attribute action to a "species" or other collective image is the better question.
No, it is childish.

However, this childishness is mainstream! I wasn't sleeping well the other night; so I ended up watching a repeat of a Wednesday primetime{on selected PBS channels} show called, "The Botany of Desire." It seems the show was highlighting a book I never heard before. Of the four parts that took two hours to show, I missed the "apple" plant part and I shut it off before the "potato" part finished.

The words used in that program meant the complete opposite of "evolution" and "natural selection."

The cultivation is the result of DEVOLUTION & SUPRANATURAL SELECTION.

How should one define "unnatural"?
MrB.
SUPERNATURAL SELECTION & DEVOLUTION : thank you very much for my childish little shout here. smile.gif It is better in my opinion and in God's Word, to stop and think, is it really the creation one should worship or the Creator??!


"ye are gods" (KJV)

Psalm 82:
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (KJV)
Compare verse 8 and context with Isaiah 41:21-3 & John 10:33-5.
Physfan
QUOTE
I do not subscribe to any political, spiritual, moral, or religious ideology.
In which case, acknowledgement of sound science should be a matter of fact. Your statement above doesn't suggest that you take seriously the only thing which has added benefit, ie life, to your life.

Physfan
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.