Reducing the uniqueness of an individual organism to being just an iteration of species is reductive, and thereby potentially degrading. How would you feel if your best friend or your spouse said that they just needed a human to listen to them or help with the household expenses. You wouldn't feel very valued as an individual, would you?
I believe the distinction between history and fiction was only invented in the 19th century as a result of proliferation of printed literature. Before that I think that no such classification as "fiction" existed. I've heard this from more than one historiographer.
QUOTE
It is not degrading to acknowledge the power of the human imagination. It is degrading to suggest as you clearly did that, and I quote, "If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too." It is you that degrades the power of human imagination (Or possibly degrade the concept of god)
Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't. I see Yoda's quote about the future being difficult to see because it is always in motion as extremely insightful, comparable to any professional philosophical wisdom. I see it as a testament to genius that Lucas was able to get people who would rather watch hours of infomercial than to open a philosophy book to focus their attention for 6 hours, and that is just the first three movies!
If you truly associate God with the idea of goodness, He is in everything good, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Did you see the latest version of Charlotte's Web? Fern's mother asks the doctor if he thinks the writing in the web is a miracle. The doctors response is that the web itself is a miracle. "Can you make one?" he asks her. "No, but I can make a doily," she answers. "But someone taught you how," he says, "no one taught the spider . . . don't you think that's a miracle?" Don't you think it's a miracle that someone can make a book or movie that conveys this concept to even people with low educational level and attention limits?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| It is not degrading to acknowledge the power of the human imagination. It is degrading to suggest as you clearly did that, and I quote, "If God is in everything, then God is in the wisdom of Yoda too." It is you that degrades the power of human imagination (Or possibly degrade the concept of god) |
Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't. I see Yoda's quote about the future being difficult to see because it is always in motion as extremely insightful, comparable to any professional philosophical wisdom. I see it as a testament to genius that Lucas was able to get people who would rather watch hours of infomercial than to open a philosophy book to focus their attention for 6 hours, and that is just the first three movies!
If you truly associate God with the idea of goodness, He is in everything good, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Did you see the latest version of Charlotte's Web? Fern's mother asks the doctor if he thinks the writing in the web is a miracle. The doctors response is that the web itself is a miracle. "Can you make one?" he asks her. "No, but I can make a doily," she answers. "But someone taught you how," he says, "no one taught the spider . . . don't you think that's a miracle?" Don't you think it's a miracle that someone can make a book or movie that conveys this concept to even people with low educational level and attention limits?
And besides, if god is in everything then he/she/it was also the mastermind behind every genocide. Can we not absolve the human perpetrators of any wrong doing, yes, no?
God gave humans the power to kill, I think, yes - even though He gave the commandment later not to kill. I think that only God can ultimately absolve human perpetrators of any wrong doing, through themselves. Someone else can forgive you, but can you ever forgive yourself? People who don't believe in forgiveness or shirk it are more likely, imo, to view their own wrong doing (or "sins" as I like to call them) as unforgivable and burn with shame, guilt, and fear of reprisal. People who learn to forgive others and accept the salvation of God's forgiveness (I won't say "through Jesus Christ" although it's tempting) through personal confession to Him, are theoretically less likely to have an aching, "burning" conscience and succumb to all the temptations that come with shame.
People avoid confessing and accepting forgiveness, though, because they know that it comes with the price of making a sincere effort to avoid sin in the future, and they aren't quite ready to give up sin yet - so they go on bearing the cross of shame, fear, and unforgiveness.
This is the way I understand it, anyway.
Goofus A Gallant
28th October 2009 - 03:32 PM
If you can't forgive yourself, then can you truly forgive someone else?
buttershug
28th October 2009 - 04:04 PM
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 03:23 PM)
Reducing the uniqueness of an individual organism to being just an iteration of species is reductive, and thereby potentially degrading.
So what?
The question is, is it accurate?
Sinister Utopia
28th October 2009 - 04:18 PM
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 03:23 PM)
Reducing the uniqueness of an individual organism to being just an iteration of species is reductive, and thereby potentially degrading. How would you feel if your best friend or your spouse said that they just needed a human to listen to them or help with the household expenses. You wouldn't feel very valued as an individual, would you?
My point is that the wisdom was forged in a human brain or brains. There is no reason to credit any gods. It is degrading to suggest that humans are not capable of wisdom on their own.
As for your other strange point, have you never heard the phrase, "I just want someone to listen to me"?
A someone meaning a fellow human being?
QUOTE
Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't.
No, see above. Who said Star Wars was rubbish?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't. |
No, see above. Who said Star Wars was rubbish?
If you truly associate God with the idea of goodness, He is in everything good, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant.
Oh, so now you have demoted god from being in everything to only everything good. How convenient for you. Who is responsible for all the bad stuff then?
QUOTE
God gave humans the power to kill, I think, yes - even though He gave the commandment later not to kill. I think that only God can ultimately absolve human perpetrators of any wrong doing, through themselves.
Oops, you did it again. Humans have evolved the capability to kill without the need for any gods to grant them the ability. Ants kill, did god give them that power too?
buttershug
28th October 2009 - 04:25 PM
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 03:23 PM)
Why, because Yoda is a little green muppet? You may see Star Wars as rubbish but I don't.
No it's because he sees Yoda as fiction and make believe.
And you havn't given any reason why God is more real than Yoda.
light in the tunnel
28th October 2009 - 04:35 PM
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 28 2009, 04:04 PM)
So what?
The question is, is it accurate?
The "so what?" sounds rhetorical and I've explained it in other posts.
Is it accurate to attribute action to a "species" or other collective image is the better question. I would say that it is less accurate to sum up specifics in a collectivized or generalized representation than it is to treat them as specific details. The problem is that cognition and representational media have complexity-limitations that result in an interest in reductionism.
Moving between the level of representation used to describe direct empirical observations and the level of generality and macro-abstraction used in certain kinds of theorizing does result in losses of accuracy and distortions. If you say, for example, that humans as a species created the idea of God, does that translate into each human individual contributed equally to its creation? Probably not, but it depends on what you mean by "contribute" "creation" and "God." If by "God" you just mean, say, knowledge of the possibility of truth, then you could say that every human individual contributes to the idea or existence of God by knowing the possibility of truth, but if you don't define God that way, then you could argue according to the specific aspect of divinity you are talking about.
Is it as accurate to talk about a species as a collective than details of specific actions of individual organisms, even if it is something that all individuals are assumed to share? No, it's still more accurate to say that "an individual labeled as Cordata has a spine" than it is to say that "the species has spines," because the logical extrapolation between conglomerate representation and individual is not left up to interpretation. The exception would be if you are talking about the species as an ideological concept apart from its application/projection on observed organisms, in which case you could say that "[the classification] Cordata contains the criteria of having a spine," but in practice people are always mixing up talking about the classification at the ideal level with talking about it as a way of representing the material entities it's supposed to apply to.
I think you could devote an entire branch of science philosophy to the slippage between these two forms of representation. The problem is that there probably already is such a branch, or maybe several, and they are all buried in libraries and other largely unvisited venues. Now, getting peer-reviewers to pay attention to this and control for it in research and publication - that would be quite a feat.
Empirically, you can observe an individual organism or entity. You cannot empirically observe multiple individuals as one. Just like you can empirically observe a single star, but you can't empirically observe a constellation. The constellation only exists as a cognitive-concept projected onto empirically observed phenomena. The words, "species" or "constellation" are themselves accurate for what they describe, but inaccurate if they are taken to describe physical entities directly instead of synthetic conceptual abstractions, which is what they are.
Is that an acceptable answer?
buttershug
28th October 2009 - 04:56 PM
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 28 2009, 04:35 PM)
Is that an acceptable answer?
Not in the context of this forum.
Basically some insults are true.
And this forum is about accuracy as it is about anything.
rpenner
28th October 2009 - 06:10 PM
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 28 2009, 04:56 PM)
And this forum is about accuracy as it is about anything.
I would have to agree with this.
light in the tunnel
28th October 2009 - 06:36 PM
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 28 2009, 04:56 PM)
Not in the context of this forum.
Basically some insults are true.
And this forum is about accuracy as it is about anything.
Is this a reply to what I posted? I can't tell from reading it. All you do is say the forum is about accuracy, but what are you saying about accuracy in language itself? Are claims made in reference to a "species" more accurate in your assessment than claims made about a specific individual organism?
arpc_01
29th October 2009 - 04:49 PM
Wow, 5 pages of bitching at each other. You people take yourselves terribly serious.
MjolnirPants
29th October 2009 - 06:26 PM
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 29 2009, 11:49 AM)
Wow, 5 pages of bitching at each other. You people take yourselves terribly serious.
No, "we people" take honesty, science, integrity and factual accuracy seriously.
We take ourselves with the usual mix of humor and seriousness, and take cranks and wackjobs as objects of our amusement.
MisterBelfry
2nd November 2009 - 11:08 AM
QUOTE
Is it accurate to attribute action to a "species" or other collective image is the better question.
No, it is childish.
However, this childishness is mainstream! I wasn't sleeping well the other night; so I ended up watching a repeat of a Wednesday primetime{on selected PBS channels} show called, "The Botany of Desire." It seems the show was highlighting a book I never heard before. Of the four parts that took two hours to show, I missed the "apple" plant part and I shut it off before the "potato" part finished.
The words used in that program meant the complete opposite of "evolution" and "natural selection."
The cultivation is the result of DEVOLUTION & SUPRANATURAL SELECTION.
How should one define "unnatural"?
MrB.
SUPERNATURAL SELECTION & DEVOLUTION : thank you very much for my childish little shout here.

It is better in my opinion and in God's Word, to stop and think, is it really the creation one should worship or the Creator??!
"ye are gods" (KJV)
Psalm 82:
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (KJV)
Compare verse 8 and context with Isaiah 41:21-3 & John 10:33-5.
Physfan
2nd November 2009 - 11:16 AM
QUOTE
I do not subscribe to any political, spiritual, moral, or religious ideology.
In which case, acknowledgement of sound science should be a matter of fact. Your statement above doesn't suggest that you take seriously the only thing which has added benefit, ie life, to your life.
Physfan
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