Why Doesn't Water Freeze At The Bottom Of A Lake?

abphysics07

11th June 2012 - 03:32 PM

Why doesn't water freeze at the bottom of a lake? Can anyone please explain how it happens by anomalous expansion properly?

boit

11th June 2012 - 08:52 PM

A cubic metre of ice is less dense than a cubic metre of water. That means a given amount of water has to expand to form ice. The pressure at the bottom of the lake doesn't allow this expansion to take place.

Whitewolf4869

12th June 2012 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE (abphysics07+Jun 11 2012, 03:32 PM)

Why doesn't water freeze at the bottom of a lake? Can anyone please explain how it happens by anomalous expansion properly?

For same reason spring water doesn't freeze.

flyingbuttressman

12th June 2012 - 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 10:23 AM)

For same reason spring water doesn't freeze.

And what reason is that, Whitewolf?

Whitewolf4869

12th June 2012 - 03:19 PM

QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 12 2012, 03:05 PM)

And what reason is that, Whitewolf?

Figure it out dumb ***

Whitewolf4869

12th June 2012 - 03:26 PM

QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 12 2012, 03:05 PM)

And what reason is that, Whitewolf?

Every hillbilly knows spring water doesn't freeze, thats why we use it in our car radiators in the winter. daaaa

flyingbuttressman

12th June 2012 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 11:26 AM)

Every hillbilly knows spring water doesn't freeze, thats why we use it in our car radiators in the winter. daaaa

Ok, "hillbilly," why?

rpenner

12th June 2012 - 04:13 PM

Water is densest at about 4 °C (39 °F). So the two stable configurations of water in a still lake are cooler at bottom and the upper layers being above 4 °C, or warmer at the bottom and the upper layers being below 4 °C.

Except in geothermal regions, the main heat flow in or out of the lake is through the surface. So ultimately, in cold weather this is where the lighter-than-water ice forms -- near the source of cooling.

flyingbuttressman

12th June 2012 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 11:26 AM)

Every hillbilly knows spring water doesn't freeze, thats why we use it in our car radiators in the winter. daaaa

Since you haven't responded, I'll clue you in.
You're wrong. Spring water DOES freeze. You use distilled water (as opposed to tap water) in a car radiator because it is non-corrosive. It's still better to use anti-freeze though.

Mekigal

12th June 2012 - 06:31 PM

QUOTE (rpenner+Jun 12 2012, 04:13 PM)

Water is densest at about 4 °C (39 °F). So the two stable configurations of water in a still lake are cooler at bottom and the upper layers being above 4 °C, or warmer at the bottom and the upper layers being below 4 °C.

Except in geothermal regions, the main heat flow in or out of the lake is through the surface. So ultimately, in cold weather this is where the lighter-than-water ice forms -- near the source of cooling.

I got add something sense I know these things from being a fisherman . The warm water as it cools drops to the bottom . It is convection that causes the flip . That is what we say as fall comes on . The lake flips . It is a good thing it does , but rather a which came first kind of thing when you thionk a bout it . The flip adds much needed oxygen to the bottom of the lake or the lake would be well on its way to being a dead lake . Then it would be a good candidate for botulism infestation ( can't believe I spelled that right. Unbelievable in my own mind ). So as the cool air of fall comes on the top cools and sinks to the bottom . That is where the coldest water in the lake is . Then as it turns to ice it floats to the surface . Bam! You can go ice skating when it becomes thick enough .

One other thing about water and ice is it welds together . You can check this your self by examination of your ice cooler . Ever have those little cubes end up in a block of disfigured mass of one chunk of ice . I can't tell you what kind of bond it makes . I leave that to the high school science professor or straight up chemist

Mekigal

12th June 2012 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 03:26 PM)

Every hillbilly knows spring water doesn't freeze, thats why we use it in our car radiators in the winter. daaaa

Salt water . Ethanol . Spring water freezes bro . Oil spills not so likely . Have you ever seen a water fall freeze ? very beautiful sight .

Salt makes ice melt . Course all northern people know this . Can't tell you chemical reaction ?

Confused1

12th June 2012 - 11:15 PM

Ice crystals have a nice hexagon type structure which occupies more space than the less ordered liquid - same number of molecules taking up more space means lower density - so ice floats. If the frozen bits float then the last bit to get frozen is right down at the bottom. The bottom of the lake can freeze but it will be the last bit to do so. It takes a lot of energy to unlock water molecules from ice - conversely it takes a lot of energy to turn water into ice - so conversion of water into ice soaks up a lot of 'cold' (must be a better way of putting that) and the ice forms a (fairly) good insulatiing layer between cold air and the water at the bottom of the lake.
-C2.

Whitewolf4869

13th June 2012 - 12:20 AM

That's a hillbilly joke bros.
Your all wrong, the temp of deep water or soil temp below a depth of 10 feet or so reflects the average surface temp.
Lakes in the far north freeze solid to the bottom.
The average deep water temp of Lake ONTARIO one of north Ameracias great lakes is 4 degrees C
or 39 F , and doesn't change much year round.
The surface can go from freezing in winter to + 60-70 F in summer.

flyingbuttressman

13th June 2012 - 01:13 AM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 08:20 PM)

That's a hillbilly joke bros.

Do you have any more examples of "hillbilly" culture that you would like to share?

QUOTE

Your all wrong

That's funny, because everything you've said here has already been stated at least once on this thread.

Whitewolf4869

13th June 2012 - 01:30 AM

QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 13 2012, 01:13 AM)

Do you have any more examples of "hillbilly" culture that you would like to share?

That's funny, because everything you've said here has already been stated at least once on this thread.

Where does it say that northern lakes freeze to the bottom?
You know nothing about cold climates.
Distilled water is used in batteries and antifreeze in radiators.

flyingbuttressman

13th June 2012 - 01:45 AM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 09:30 PM)

Where does it say that northern lakes freeze to the bottom?

I would consider that common knowledge.

QUOTE

Distilled water is used in batteries and antifreeze in radiators.

Batteries, yes. Antifreeze, no.
It can be used as a coolant, but not in cold weather. There is nothing about distilled water that would prevent it from freezing.

Whitewolf4869

13th June 2012 - 01:53 AM

Heres something for you to look up on Wikipedia.
Why don't charged batteries freeze?
One way to stop water from freezing is to keep it moving although even moving water will freeze if the air temp is cold enough.

flyingbuttressman

13th June 2012 - 02:12 AM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 09:53 PM)

Why don't charged batteries freeze?

Sulfuric acid has a freezing point lower than water.

Whitewolf4869

13th June 2012 - 02:19 AM

(Charged Battries)!
Dead batteries (FREEZE)
Your the physicist here, aren't you?

flyingbuttressman

13th June 2012 - 05:32 PM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 12 2012, 10:19 PM)

(Charged Battries)!
Dead batteries (FREEZE)
Your the physicist here, aren't you?

I don't know, your hillbilly wisdom is giving me a run for my money. Are there any other nuggets that you'd like to share?

Mekigal

13th June 2012 - 07:03 PM

what i think is interesting is the way bodies ( human ) preserve at the bottom of Lake Tahoe . Something about the temp of a constant 38 degrees I imagine . Maybe the crystal clear water has something to do with it also? Pressure may play a roll ?

Don't know . Kind of still a mystery ?

Mekigal

13th June 2012 - 07:07 PM

QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jun 13 2012, 02:19 AM)

(Charged Battries)!
Dead batteries (FREEZE)
Your the physicist here, aren't you?

Interesting . A real live Physicist? Butterflies a Real Physicist? I am a real carpenter so well people do have these rolls in life .

flyingbuttressman

13th June 2012 - 07:11 PM

QUOTE (Mekigal+Jun 13 2012, 03:03 PM)

what i think is interesting is the way bodies ( human ) preserve at the bottom of Lake Tahoe . Something about the temp of a constant 38 degrees I imagine . Maybe the crystal clear water has something to do with it also? Pressure may play a roll ?

Don't know . Kind of still a mystery ?

Clear water is usually an indicator of a lack of microorganisms, so maybe that's it? It looks like Tahoe has a fairly high oxygen saturation even at very deep levels, which wouldn't preclude fish or other life from living at the bottom.

Mekigal

15th June 2012 - 12:07 AM

QUOTE (Guest+Jun 14 2012, 11:26 PM)

Fish need oxygen!
What are you anyway, an artificial intelligence?
You don't seem to have the foggiest clue about how the real world works.
Why don't you go play toy train with Rob Penner?

What are you talking about . Did you think don't means do . Would not and would are the same to you . Did you understand what she said ? She said fish and other lake creatures should live there given the amount of oxygen in the lake .

I am an interpreter now for the learned impaired . O.K. Guess I am sorry for making what looks like an insult to you, but really was not . I have my learning disabilities so I don't really see them as disabilities but enhancement of new road not taken . Looking under rocks kind of thing when we play at the river looking for stick bugs.
You ever seen a stick bug ? Thay can get to be 18" or more and are kind of creepy when you see one in the wild .

So what do you mean by fish need oxygen? Are you implying some one said that fish don't need oxygen ? Did you read between the lines that some one said fish don't need oxygen ? Could it be a misinterpretation on your own behalf .

Are you a single handed lynch mob ? The Grammar police ?

Lets clarify. Fish should be able to live at the bottom of Lake Tahoe because there appears to be plenty of oxygen in lake Tahoe.

There is and it is clear as can be. Melted Glacier I believe . I fished it once . No luck on any sizable trout but I tell you what the chums were plentiful ( For you that don't know chum is an expression for a variety of fish that are not game fish . Like minnows are a good example of chum .
There are butt loads of chum . So much so they will strip your bait in a heart beat before other fish have a chance to get at your line

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