Science. It's not political, religious, or a matter of personal sentiment. Why do so many people think that science is out to get them?
Because, just like all those other things in reality, people are often afraid of what they do not understand. Which is why I think it's important to not push people away from understanding when they have a lack of, no matter how troubling it may be, a success is always worth an effort ... otherwise, we might never understand one another.
Do you think that religion is a major or minor contributing factor?
Minor, people are the major part-problem of any religion. 
Guns don't pull triggers, people do.
Guns don't pull triggers, people do.
There must be some studies, but I can't locate ones right off that are on the mark. Help us out guys.
Meem said it. And in general people tend to be suspicious of others they believe may know more than they do. If you're sharper than your supervisor and he sees it, getting a promotion may be a problem. Also a default response built into the brain for survival is to be suspicious of anything you don't understand.
The basic problem is ignorance, and there is obviously no shortage of ignorance of science. In the US you can get a bachelors degree without ever taking a science course, much less a lab course for hands on experience.
Without understanding of scientific method, people who do not understand something tend to lock on to info from a source they think has authority.
Meem said it. And in general people tend to be suspicious of others they believe may know more than they do. If you're sharper than your supervisor and he sees it, getting a promotion may be a problem. Also a default response built into the brain for survival is to be suspicious of anything you don't understand.
The basic problem is ignorance, and there is obviously no shortage of ignorance of science. In the US you can get a bachelors degree without ever taking a science course, much less a lab course for hands on experience.
Without understanding of scientific method, people who do not understand something tend to lock on to info from a source they think has authority.
Sporacle,
QUOTE
The Paradoxical Commandments
by Dr. Kent M. Keith
People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered.
Love them anyway.
If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.
If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.
The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.
Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.
The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men and women with the smallest minds.
Think big anyway.
People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs.
Fight for a few underdogs anyway.
What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.
People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.
Help people anyway.
Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you have anyway.
by Dr. Kent M. Keith
People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered.
Love them anyway.
If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.
If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.
The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.
Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.
The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men and women with the smallest minds.
Think big anyway.
People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs.
Fight for a few underdogs anyway.
What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.
People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.
Help people anyway.
Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you have anyway.
I just finished reading "Finding Darwin's God" by Kennith Miller. He addressed many of the same issues (fear of science) but chalked it up to science's exclusion of god. As an atheist, I didn't agree with some of his conclusions, but overall, it was a great introduction to the field of biology for the average religious layperson.
The reason people think science is a conspiricy might have to do with the fact that scientists governments and anyone with technology trys to keep how it works a secret. Secrets pretty much equal a conspiricy. If your going to tell me they dont try to keep it secret then honestly tell me is there anything people should not be allowed to know how to build? I think the government has an answer to this one as some things explained over the interent can get you into jail fast...
QUOTE
The reason people think science is a conspiricy might have to do with the fact that scientists governments and anyone with technology trys to keep how it works a secret.
Just because you don't have a clue doesn't mean it's kept secret. It just means you're stupid.
That's because not everyone is ready for the responsibility or, dare I say, has the wisdom on how to use everything science has to offer. It should be guarded.
Yeah because keeping things secret is brotherly love.
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 12 2009, 12:20 AM)
The reason people think science is a conspiricy might have to do with the fact that scientists governments and anyone with technology trys to keep how it works a secret.
Obviously they aren't secrets if an idiot like Timothy McVeigh can build a nitrogen fertilizer bomb. Are they really secrets? Or are you too lazy/stupid to learn the facts presented in high school science class? Given the parts, it's not very hard to build WMD's. That's why it's very difficult to buy nitrogen fertilizer, and that's also why we don't make Uranium ore publicly available.
Again, just because you don't want to learn doesn't make knowledge "secret."
Also, you're a piss-poor example of a troll
Obviously they aren't secrets if an idiot like Timothy McVeigh can build a nitrogen fertilizer bomb. Are they really secrets? Or are you too lazy/stupid to learn the facts presented in high school science class? Given the parts, it's not very hard to build WMD's. That's why it's very difficult to buy nitrogen fertilizer, and that's also why we don't make Uranium ore publicly available.
Again, just because you don't want to learn doesn't make knowledge "secret."
Also, you're a piss-poor example of a troll
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 12 2009, 12:30 AM)
Yeah because keeping things secret is brotherly love.
One doesn't even need to keep it a secret to keep you away, one just has to write "science" on it and you'll claim that you don't believe in it.
Such a fabulous way of going through life.
One doesn't even need to keep it a secret to keep you away, one just has to write "science" on it and you'll claim that you don't believe in it.
Such a fabulous way of going through life.
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 12 2009, 12:20 AM)
The reason people think science is a conspiricy might have to do with the fact that scientists governments and anyone with technology trys to keep how it works a secret. Secrets pretty much equal a conspiricy. If your going to tell me they dont try to keep it secret then honestly tell me is there anything people should not be allowed to know how to build? I think the government has an answer to this one as some things explained over the interent can get you into jail fast...
Are you talking about KFC and Coke and Dr. Pepper by any chance?
Are you talking about KFC and Coke and Dr. Pepper by any chance?
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 11 2009, 07:37 PM)
Given the parts, it's not very hard to build WMD's.
Depends on the WMD, and I wouldn't tend to generalize it as 'easy'.
Biological agents? Easy as pie, if you have an education in biology.
Chemical agents? Nothing a guy with a degree in chemistry can't get around.
Nuclear agents (not including the highly ineffective "dirty bomb")? Damn near impossible for any non-state party. (Look how long it's taken N. Korea to get this far with functionally unlimited funding for their nuclear program.)
The means to deliver these agents effectively? State-backing again required.
So while building some WMD's is easy, deploying them in the field is highly difficult. I don't worry about terrorists spreading Anthrax or Ebola across the US, or detonating nukes in major cities. I worry about Kim Jong Il and his idiotic claims about American aggression and his pursuit of nuclear weapons. I could see that guy nuking Seattle and San Francisco without much imagination.
A;though it's commonly said that any idiot with the right materials and a machine shop could build a nuke, you can look at the development of nuclear weaponry in every nuclear power around today to see how untrue that really is. It takes months or years of design, experimentation and trial-and-error testing to perfect a nuclear weapon, and that's for a well funded government. I think mostly it's just rhetoric meant to scare people to keep them in awe of nuclear devices in a day when every third summer movie contains a nuclear explosion.
This is an easy one, actually. In the case of one group, it's because they think they know things about science, and they think they know things about the universe, and those with an education in science invariably disagree with them. Since those in question could not possibly be wrong, and the only thing their detractors share in common is a knowledge of science, science must therefore be conspiring to suppress their ideas and ruin their good name.
In the case of the other group, it's because the internet, cellular phones, big guns and science fiction is scary. Since they all have science in common, that must mean that science is out to destroy the world. The fact that scientists have to live in this world like everyone else is incidental, after all, religious extremists kill themselves to further their goals, why can't the big, bad, scary scientists?
This is an easy one, actually. In the case of one group, it's because they think they know things about science, and they think they know things about the universe, and those with an education in science invariably disagree with them. Since those in question could not possibly be wrong, and the only thing their detractors share in common is a knowledge of science, science must therefore be conspiring to suppress their ideas and ruin their good name.
In the case of the other group, it's because the internet, cellular phones, big guns and science fiction is scary. Since they all have science in common, that must mean that science is out to destroy the world. The fact that scientists have to live in this world like everyone else is incidental, after all, religious extremists kill themselves to further their goals, why can't the big, bad, scary scientists?
If your going to tell me they dont try to keep it secret then honestly tell me is there anything people should not be allowed to know how to build? I think the government has an answer to this one as some things explained over the interent can get you into jail fast...
You can find free copies of functional plans for nuclear weapons on the internet. Hell, you can even find the free education you'd need to refine them on the internet. The fact that you think the government keeps such information secret (or that the government could keep such information secret) lets the rest of us know how much of an idiot you are.
It's not know-how that prevents people from building nukes in their backyards, it's a lack of proper materials, funding and experience, dumbass.
UK reveals nuclear bomb plans
No, the hallmark of true science is the accurate description and prediction of the workings of the physical universe. If those workings do not conform to reason and logic, so much the worse for reason and logic.
Depends on the WMD, and I wouldn't tend to generalize it as 'easy'.
Biological agents? Easy as pie, if you have an education in biology.
Chemical agents? Nothing a guy with a degree in chemistry can't get around.
Nuclear agents (not including the highly ineffective "dirty bomb")? Damn near impossible for any non-state party. (Look how long it's taken N. Korea to get this far with functionally unlimited funding for their nuclear program.)
The means to deliver these agents effectively? State-backing again required.
So while building some WMD's is easy, deploying them in the field is highly difficult. I don't worry about terrorists spreading Anthrax or Ebola across the US, or detonating nukes in major cities. I worry about Kim Jong Il and his idiotic claims about American aggression and his pursuit of nuclear weapons. I could see that guy nuking Seattle and San Francisco without much imagination.
A;though it's commonly said that any idiot with the right materials and a machine shop could build a nuke, you can look at the development of nuclear weaponry in every nuclear power around today to see how untrue that really is. It takes months or years of design, experimentation and trial-and-error testing to perfect a nuclear weapon, and that's for a well funded government. I think mostly it's just rhetoric meant to scare people to keep them in awe of nuclear devices in a day when every third summer movie contains a nuclear explosion.
QUOTE
Science. It's not political, religious, or a matter of personal sentiment. Why do so many people think that science is out to get them?
This is an easy one, actually. In the case of one group, it's because they think they know things about science, and they think they know things about the universe, and those with an education in science invariably disagree with them. Since those in question could not possibly be wrong, and the only thing their detractors share in common is a knowledge of science, science must therefore be conspiring to suppress their ideas and ruin their good name.
In the case of the other group, it's because the internet, cellular phones, big guns and science fiction is scary. Since they all have science in common, that must mean that science is out to destroy the world. The fact that scientists have to live in this world like everyone else is incidental, after all, religious extremists kill themselves to further their goals, why can't the big, bad, scary scientists?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Science. It's not political, religious, or a matter of personal sentiment. Why do so many people think that science is out to get them? |
This is an easy one, actually. In the case of one group, it's because they think they know things about science, and they think they know things about the universe, and those with an education in science invariably disagree with them. Since those in question could not possibly be wrong, and the only thing their detractors share in common is a knowledge of science, science must therefore be conspiring to suppress their ideas and ruin their good name.
In the case of the other group, it's because the internet, cellular phones, big guns and science fiction is scary. Since they all have science in common, that must mean that science is out to destroy the world. The fact that scientists have to live in this world like everyone else is incidental, after all, religious extremists kill themselves to further their goals, why can't the big, bad, scary scientists?
If your going to tell me they dont try to keep it secret then honestly tell me is there anything people should not be allowed to know how to build? I think the government has an answer to this one as some things explained over the interent can get you into jail fast...
You can find free copies of functional plans for nuclear weapons on the internet. Hell, you can even find the free education you'd need to refine them on the internet. The fact that you think the government keeps such information secret (or that the government could keep such information secret) lets the rest of us know how much of an idiot you are.
It's not know-how that prevents people from building nukes in their backyards, it's a lack of proper materials, funding and experience, dumbass.
UK reveals nuclear bomb plans
Did they ever really trust anyone?
People think science is a conspiracy because science has moved in an irrational direction. Reason and logic is the hallmark of true science. A science of reason and logic is understandable by everyone that cares to learn. Science now look more like black magic with statement about QM or the nature of time.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jun 11 2009, 09:52 PM)
I just finished reading "Finding Darwin's God" by Kennith Miller. He addressed many of the same issues (fear of science) but chalked it up to science's exclusion of god. As an atheist, I didn't agree with some of his conclusions, but overall, it was a great introduction to the field of biology for the average religious layperson.
It is my humble opinion that Ken Miller does a better job of defending evolution than almost anyone.
Witness this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg
Just stomach the opening prayer. It's not that bad. One can be a religious scientist. But watch how Miller tears IDiot theory a new one.
It is my humble opinion that Ken Miller does a better job of defending evolution than almost anyone.
Witness this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg
Just stomach the opening prayer. It's not that bad. One can be a religious scientist. But watch how Miller tears IDiot theory a new one.
QUOTE
Reason and logic is the hallmark of true science.
No, the hallmark of true science is the accurate description and prediction of the workings of the physical universe. If those workings do not conform to reason and logic, so much the worse for reason and logic.
Flyingbuttressman:
QUOTE (tlocity+Jun 14 2009, 03:50 AM)
People think science is a conspiracy because science has moved in an irrational direction. Reason and logic is the hallmark of true science. A science of reason and logic is understandable by everyone that cares to learn. Science now look more like black magic with statement about QM or the nature of time.
Do you see what I mean? Here's a classic example of a guy in the first group I earlier mentioned. He's so sure of his own infallibility that he calls that human endeavor which most fully embodies the concepts of reason and logic itself unreasonable and illogical.
Do you see what I mean? Here's a classic example of a guy in the first group I earlier mentioned. He's so sure of his own infallibility that he calls that human endeavor which most fully embodies the concepts of reason and logic itself unreasonable and illogical.
QUOTE (AlexG+)
No, the hallmark of true science is the accurate description and prediction of the workings of the physical universe. If those workings do not conform to reason and logic, so much the worse for reason and logic.
I disagree here, actually. I don't see anything illogical or unreasonable about non-deterministic physics. A "may happen" statement can be just as logical as a "will happen" statement, and a "probably will" statement is just as logical. The fact that a theory is unintuitive doesn't make it illogical. In fact, anything which can be described or modeled mathematically is by it's very nature, logical. Mathematics is, after all, an expression of logic.
I disagree here, actually. I don't see anything illogical or unreasonable about non-deterministic physics. A "may happen" statement can be just as logical as a "will happen" statement, and a "probably will" statement is just as logical. The fact that a theory is unintuitive doesn't make it illogical. In fact, anything which can be described or modeled mathematically is by it's very nature, logical. Mathematics is, after all, an expression of logic.
People think science is a conspiracy because most people don't understand science and what science tells them. The only two reasons for this lack of understanding are:
1 People are too ignorant and/or stupid to understand.
or
2 They're not being told.
Most people find 2 to be more palatable.
1 People are too ignorant and/or stupid to understand.
or
2 They're not being told.
Most people find 2 to be more palatable.
A characteristic of conspiracies is a certain cohesiveness.
But in science the cohesiveness is not a result of conspiracy. It's a result of a systematic search for accuracy.
But in science the cohesiveness is not a result of conspiracy. It's a result of a systematic search for accuracy.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 14 2009, 07:53 PM)
A characteristic of conspiracies is a certain cohesiveness.
But in science the cohesiveness is not a result of conspiracy. It's a result of a systematic search for accuracy.
Yay
The long term, extensive and careful efforts of countless scientists has produced a comprehensive and integrally related model of reality (certainly not complete and there is a lot more to be discovered). Understanding the interrelatedness requires grunt work, and people unwilling or unable to do the hard work may see just enough to think it must be a conspiracy.
The shortsightedness of the "scientist conspiracy" ideas is usually obvious in the lack of awareness of the huge volume of scientific literature. It would be rather difficult to organize a conspiracy among hundreds of thousands of independent scientists
But in science the cohesiveness is not a result of conspiracy. It's a result of a systematic search for accuracy.
Yay
The long term, extensive and careful efforts of countless scientists has produced a comprehensive and integrally related model of reality (certainly not complete and there is a lot more to be discovered). Understanding the interrelatedness requires grunt work, and people unwilling or unable to do the hard work may see just enough to think it must be a conspiracy.
The shortsightedness of the "scientist conspiracy" ideas is usually obvious in the lack of awareness of the huge volume of scientific literature. It would be rather difficult to organize a conspiracy among hundreds of thousands of independent scientists
Orrrr it could be that science leads to stuff like the A-bomb, thought control devices aka TV, and biochemical weapon stuff.
Which are commissioned by religious type people and used by such.
QUOTE (magpies+Jun 16 2009, 08:07 PM)
Orrrr it could be that science leads to stuff like the A-bomb, thought control devices aka TV, and biochemical weapon stuff.
Knowledge is neither good nor evil - it's people that are the problem.
(Oh - and TV's have an "off" button.)
Knowledge is neither good nor evil - it's people that are the problem.
(Oh - and TV's have an "off" button.)
I think the case is that people like magpies are so absurdly confident in their own opinions that they cannot be convinced by petty things like facts, evidence and proof.
Once you have convinced yourself that there's a conspiracy, there is little hope to be taken seriously.
Once you have convinced yourself that there's a conspiracy, there is little hope to be taken seriously.
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