QUOTE (nopEda+)
4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he could not provide proof of his existence because doing so would change things too much.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
QUOTE (vkamath+May 23 2009, 08:18 AM)
The 4th item in nopEda's list.
4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he could not provide proof of his existence because doing so would change things too much.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
Changing subject a little creation is evidence for a creator. God/Jesus has you don't believe Him, no offense
QUOTE (nopEda+)
4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he could not provide proof of his existence because doing so would change things too much.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
Changing subject a little creation is evidence for a creator. God/Jesus has you don't believe Him, no offense
QUOTE (vkamath+May 23 2009, 08:18 AM)
The 4th item in nopEda's list.
4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he could not provide proof of his existence because doing so would change things too much.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
If God proved his existence then people would act the way they would act if they knew that he exists, and feel more like his slaves or servants than free minded people. Some people act as if they know God exists now.
Changing subject a little creation is evidence for a creator.
As yet I've never heard of an example of one species giving birth to a different one, and no one I've encountered has been able to explain exactly how it could happen. I asked a supposed biology guy in another group if it's not uncommon for beings of one species to have mutant offspring, and every rare once in a while those mutant offspring successfully reproduce to begin new populations, but he sure couldn't give any examples of it and said he didn't know if that's how it happens or what, so...what?
QUOTE (nopEda+)
4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he could not provide proof of his existence because doing so would change things too much.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
If God proved his existence then people would act the way they would act if they knew that he exists, and feel more like his slaves or servants than free minded people. Some people act as if they know God exists now.
QUOTE (vkamath+)
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
Who knows. They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
Who knows. They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 23 2009, 11:10 AM)
If God proved his existence then people would act the way they would act if they knew that he exists, and feel more like his slaves or servants than free minded people. Some people act as if they know God exists now.
If aliens made us aware of their existence would you consider them gods or not?
If aliens made us aware of their existence would you consider them gods or not?
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 23 2009, 04:22 PM)
If aliens made us aware of their existence would you consider them gods or not?
That would depend entirely on the situation.
That would depend entirely on the situation.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 23 2009, 04:08 PM)
Changing subject a little creation is evidence for a creator.
As yet I've never heard of an example of one species giving birth to a different one, and no one I've encountered has been able to explain exactly how it could happen. I asked a supposed biology guy in another group if it's not uncommon for beings of one species to have mutant offspring, and every rare once in a while those mutant offspring successfully reproduce to begin new populations, but he sure couldn't give any examples of it and said he didn't know if that's how it happens or what, so...what?
QUOTE (nopEda+May 23 2009, 12:54 PM)
That would depend entirely on the situation.
Would they not meet your requirements?
Not native to this planet?
Technologically advanced?
What else would they need to be?
Would they not meet your requirements?
Not native to this planet?
Technologically advanced?
What else would they need to be?
Another thread of this nonsense? 
QUOTE (nopEda+)
If God proved his existence then people would act the way they would act if they knew that he exists, and feel more like his slaves or servants than free minded people
Why should aliens care about the feelings of people?
Why should aliens care about the feelings of people?
QUOTE (nopEda+)
Who knows.
Who knows?? Are you saying you gave us number 4 in the list without thinking it through?
Who knows?? Are you saying you gave us number 4 in the list without thinking it through?
Who knows?? Are you saying you gave us number 4 in the list without thinking it through?
QUOTE (nopEda+)
They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
Are you claiming they don't want to have much influence without knowing any logical reasons why? and you want us to accept that you are realistic?
Are you claiming they don't want to have much influence without knowing any logical reasons why? and you want us to accept that you are realistic?
QUOTE (nopEda+May 23 2009, 06:01 PM)
As yet I've never heard of an example of one species giving birth to a different one, and no one I've encountered has been able to explain exactly how it could happen.
Are you thick? Humans have "given birth" to other species. There have been almost innumerable chimera's of all kinds created by humanity. It's all just A-T-C-G ...
How weak-minded would someone have to be to consider some greatly advanced alien species as a god? Ridiculous.
Are you thick? Humans have "given birth" to other species. There have been almost innumerable chimera's of all kinds created by humanity. It's all just A-T-C-G ...
How weak-minded would someone have to be to consider some greatly advanced alien species as a god? Ridiculous.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 23 2009, 06:01 PM)
As yet I've never heard of an example of one species giving birth to a different one,
that is a Creationist view.
That is not what Evolutions say.
Want examples of matutions.
Ability to drink milk as an adult.
White skin.
hemophilia
There are lots more.
that is a Creationist view.
That is not what Evolutions say.
Want examples of matutions.
Ability to drink milk as an adult.
White skin.
hemophilia
There are lots more.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 23 2009, 04:08 PM)
Changing subject a little creation is evidence for a creator. God/Jesus has you don't believe Him, no offense
The Hexagon on Saturn shows that creations don't need a creator.
(so do other naturally occuring patterns.)
And it's belief in JC that has changed things not JC himself.
The Hexagon on Saturn shows that creations don't need a creator.
(so do other naturally occuring patterns.)
And it's belief in JC that has changed things not JC himself.
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 23 2009, 06:13 PM)
Would they not meet your requirements?
Not native to this planet?
Technologically advanced?
What else would they need to be?
WOW!
That actually crossed your mind? What if they said there is no God that created the universe, but that they had some influence on life developing on this planet, and some of the things in the Bible and other canonical books. And that they do have influence on our daily lives to some extent, and answer some prayers. Then I wonder if they were lying, but if not then they would be as close to God as we've got. Or maybe they'd say that there is a God of the universe but he never had any deliberate influence on this crummy little planet, and the rest was true from the previous speculation, then again they would be as close as we've got. Or they could say they represent God directly, who did create the universe and has influence on our lives, development of life on earth, what's written in the canonical books, etc. Then I'd consider that they do represent God if they're not lying. There are other possiblities too.
Not native to this planet?
Technologically advanced?
What else would they need to be?
WOW!
That actually crossed your mind? What if they said there is no God that created the universe, but that they had some influence on life developing on this planet, and some of the things in the Bible and other canonical books. And that they do have influence on our daily lives to some extent, and answer some prayers. Then I wonder if they were lying, but if not then they would be as close to God as we've got. Or maybe they'd say that there is a God of the universe but he never had any deliberate influence on this crummy little planet, and the rest was true from the previous speculation, then again they would be as close as we've got. Or they could say they represent God directly, who did create the universe and has influence on our lives, development of life on earth, what's written in the canonical books, etc. Then I'd consider that they do represent God if they're not lying. There are other possiblities too.
QUOTE (uaafanblog+May 24 2009, 07:28 AM)
How weak-minded would someone have to be to consider some greatly advanced alien species as a god? Ridiculous.
So far no one has been able to suggestg what else he could be. Why don't you try it?
So far no one has been able to suggestg what else he could be. Why don't you try it?
QUOTE (nopEda+May 24 2009, 09:33 AM)
WOW! That actually crossed your mind? What if they said there is no God that created the universe, but that they had some influence on life developing on this planet, and some of the things in the Bible and other canonical books. And that they do have influence on our daily lives to some extent, and answer some prayers. Then I wonder if they were lying, but if not then they would be as close to God as we've got. Or maybe they'd say that there is a God of the universe but he never had any deliberate influence on this crummy little planet, and the rest was true from the previous speculation, then again they would be as close as we've got. Or they could say they represent God directly, who did create the universe and has influence on our lives, development of life on earth, what's written in the canonical books, etc. Then I'd consider that they do represent God if they're not lying. There are other possiblities too.
So your entire argument is based on a lot of big Ifs.
That actually crossed your mind? What if they said there is no God that created the universe, but that they had some influence on life developing on this planet, and some of the things in the Bible and other canonical books. And that they do have influence on our daily lives to some extent, and answer some prayers. Then I wonder if they were lying, but if not then they would be as close to God as we've got. Or maybe they'd say that there is a God of the universe but he never had any deliberate influence on this crummy little planet, and the rest was true from the previous speculation, then again they would be as close as we've got. Or they could say they represent God directly, who did create the universe and has influence on our lives, development of life on earth, what's written in the canonical books, etc. Then I'd consider that they do represent God if they're not lying. There are other possiblities too.So your entire argument is based on a lot of big Ifs.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 24 2009, 09:33 AM)
Or they could say they represent God directly, who did create the universe and has influence on our lives, development of life on earth, what's written in the canonical books, etc. Then I'd consider that they do represent God if they're not lying.
When you say "God" here do you mean another alien?
When you say "God" here do you mean another alien?
QUOTE (vkamath+May 23 2009, 07:56 PM)
Who knows?? Are you saying you gave us number 4 in the list without thinking it through?
QUOTE (nopEda+)
They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
Are you claiming they don't want to have much influence without knowing any logical reasons why?
No.
Are you claiming they don't want to have much influence without knowing any logical reasons why?
No.
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 24 2009, 03:03 PM)
When you say "God" here do you mean another alien?
Apparently you still can't accept the idea that God even could be an alien, while I take it for granted that there's nothing else he could be. To me saying God is an alien is as natural and realistic as saying Rush is from Canada.
Apparently you still can't accept the idea that God even could be an alien, while I take it for granted that there's nothing else he could be. To me saying God is an alien is as natural and realistic as saying Rush is from Canada.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 24 2009, 09:33 AM)
What if they said there is no God that created the universe, but that they had some influence on life developing on this planet, and some of the things in the Bible and other canonical books. And that they do have influence on our daily lives to some extent, and answer some prayers. Then I wonder if they were lying, but if not then they would be as close to God as we've got.
Unless another alien comes along an tells us something different.
Unless another alien comes along an tells us something different.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 24 2009, 10:12 AM)
Apparently you still can't accept the idea that God even could be an alien, while I take it for granted that there's nothing else he could be. To me saying God is an alien is as natural and realistic as saying Rush is from Canada.
I was just trying to understand what you meant. So when you mean these aliens could say they represent "God" do you mean someone native to their planet or would they have to be non-native to their planet?
I was just trying to understand what you meant. So when you mean these aliens could say they represent "God" do you mean someone native to their planet or would they have to be non-native to their planet?
nopEda,
What you fail to understand is that words mean things.
An alien would have to use our concepts to communicate with us.
If we use "God" to describe advanced aliens then they will probably refer to themselves as gods.
If we use "God" to describe the omnipotent creator then it far less likely they would refer to themselves as gods or the representative of one.
Unless you think you can change the minds of everyone's meaning of the word "God" to match yours then your definition is completely useless.
Understand?
Here is a link to a referece to "God" in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God
So far there is no mention of your concept.
Maybe you can change that?
What you fail to understand is that words mean things.
An alien would have to use our concepts to communicate with us.
If we use "God" to describe advanced aliens then they will probably refer to themselves as gods.
If we use "God" to describe the omnipotent creator then it far less likely they would refer to themselves as gods or the representative of one.
Unless you think you can change the minds of everyone's meaning of the word "God" to match yours then your definition is completely useless.
Understand?
Here is a link to a referece to "God" in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God
So far there is no mention of your concept.
Maybe you can change that?
QUOTE (nopEda+)
No
Then provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence.
Then provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence.
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 24 2009, 03:18 PM)
Unless another alien comes along an tells us something different.
Would that be more or less than what we have so far?
Would that be more or less than what we have so far?
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 24 2009, 03:26 PM)
I was just trying to understand what you meant. So when you mean these aliens could say they represent "God" do you mean someone native to their planet or would they have to be non-native to their planet?
That could go any way at all, but they can't be native to this planet.
That could go any way at all, but they can't be native to this planet.
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 24 2009, 04:19 PM)
nopEda,
What you fail to understand is that words mean things.
An alien would have to use our concepts to communicate with us.
If we use "God" to describe advanced aliens then they will probably refer to themselves as gods.
If we use "God" to describe the omnipotent creator then it far less likely they would refer to themselves as gods or the representative of one.
Unless you think you can change the minds of everyone's meaning of the word "God" to match yours then your definition is completely useless.
Understand?
Yes. I also understand that:
11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.
So if you try to place a restriction or claim something that seems unrealistic, I must reject it. I try to think as open mindedly as I can, and accepting your restrictions and unrealistic claims would make that impossible.
What you fail to understand is that words mean things.
An alien would have to use our concepts to communicate with us.
If we use "God" to describe advanced aliens then they will probably refer to themselves as gods.
If we use "God" to describe the omnipotent creator then it far less likely they would refer to themselves as gods or the representative of one.
Unless you think you can change the minds of everyone's meaning of the word "God" to match yours then your definition is completely useless.
Understand?
Yes. I also understand that:
11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.
So if you try to place a restriction or claim something that seems unrealistic, I must reject it. I try to think as open mindedly as I can, and accepting your restrictions and unrealistic claims would make that impossible.
QUOTE (vkamath+May 24 2009, 04:55 PM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
No
Then provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence.
I believe he would have no problem providing proof of it, meaning I believe he has deliberately decided not to provide it for whatever reasons he decided not to.
I believe he would have no problem providing proof of it, meaning I believe he has deliberately decided not to provide it for whatever reasons he decided not to.
I don't care about your beliefs. I thought you wanted to think realistically.
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
OR Admit your belief is no more valid than that of any other religion.
Like what, for example?
Are Any Of You Who Think You're A Strong Atheist, unashamed to admit your faith?
No I don't. Obviously you do, but I don't.
Do you accept that Hellmann's would be charged and fined if they started selling "low-fat mayonaise"?
Basically you are admitting that you can't accept using words properly.
This answer, is noncertain:
On Earth, things are more or less structured as a gods consortium.
2.Religion is multi-interpreted, so no religion at times is more valid than any other religion.
Then provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence.
I believe he would have no problem providing proof of it, meaning I believe he has deliberately decided not to provide it for whatever reasons he decided not to.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 24 2009, 03:12 PM)
Apparently you still can't accept the idea that God even could be an alien, while I take it for granted that there's nothing else he could be. To me saying God is an alien is as natural and realistic as saying Rush is from Canada.
You can't accept that if it's low fat you have to call it "mayonaise dressing".
And that if it's not omnipotent then you need a word other than God.
You can't accept that if it's low fat you have to call it "mayonaise dressing".
And that if it's not omnipotent then you need a word other than God.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 25 2009, 11:26 AM)
Yes. I also understand that:
11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.
So if you try to place a restriction or claim something that seems unrealistic, I must reject it. I try to think as open mindedly as I can, and accepting your restrictions and unrealistic claims would make that impossible.
If you want to discuss any parts you think aliens could have played in the development of life on earth, answering prayers or anything else fine. But when you use the word "God" in this discussion unless someone reading your statement understands you are talking about advanced aliens then they are going to think you are talking about something completely different.
11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.
So if you try to place a restriction or claim something that seems unrealistic, I must reject it. I try to think as open mindedly as I can, and accepting your restrictions and unrealistic claims would make that impossible.
If you want to discuss any parts you think aliens could have played in the development of life on earth, answering prayers or anything else fine. But when you use the word "God" in this discussion unless someone reading your statement understands you are talking about advanced aliens then they are going to think you are talking about something completely different.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 25 2009, 10:01 PM)
I believe he would have no problem providing proof of it, meaning I believe he has deliberately decided not to provide it for whatever reasons he decided not to. I don't care about your beliefs. I thought you wanted to think realistically.
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
OR Admit your belief is no more valid than that of any other religion.
QUOTE (buttershug+May 25 2009, 05:07 PM)
You can't accept that if it's low fat you have to call it "mayonaise dressing".
And that if it's not omnipotent then you need a word other than God.
No I don't. Obviously you do, but I don't.
And that if it's not omnipotent then you need a word other than God.
No I don't. Obviously you do, but I don't.
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 25 2009, 05:23 PM)
If you want to discuss any parts you think aliens could have played in the development of life on earth, answering prayers or anything else fine. But when you use the word "God" in this discussion unless someone reading your statement understands you are talking about advanced aliens then they are going to think you are talking about something completely different.
Like what, for example?
Like what, for example?
QUOTE (nopEda+May 25 2009, 09:28 PM)
Like what, for example?Are Any Of You Who Think You're A Strong Atheist, unashamed to admit your faith?
QUOTE (nopEda@May 19 2009+ 07:55 AM )
I have known of people claiming to be strong atheists who are ashamed of everything like that they have faith in, including their supposed belief that God does not exist.
For example
If you said this to someone random they are not likely to think you are talking about aliens.
For example
If you said this to someone random they are not likely to think you are talking about aliens.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 26 2009, 02:26 AM)
No I don't. Obviously you do, but I don't. Do you accept that Hellmann's would be charged and fined if they started selling "low-fat mayonaise"?
Basically you are admitting that you can't accept using words properly.
nopEda,
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
OR Admit your belief is no more valid than that of any other religion.
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
OR Admit your belief is no more valid than that of any other religion.
QUOTE
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
This answer, is noncertain:
On Earth, things are more or less structured as a gods consortium.
2.Religion is multi-interpreted, so no religion at times is more valid than any other religion.
QUOTE (pnelson419+May 26 2009, 03:01 AM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
I have known of people claiming to be strong atheists who are ashamed of everything like that they have faith in, including their supposed belief that God does not exist.
If you said this to someone random they are not likely to think you are talking about aliens.
They would if they too had come to the conclusion that God would have to be an alien, since he couldn't very well be native to a planet he created billions of years after he himself came into being.
If you said this to someone random they are not likely to think you are talking about aliens.
They would if they too had come to the conclusion that God would have to be an alien, since he couldn't very well be native to a planet he created billions of years after he himself came into being.
QUOTE (vkamath+May 26 2009, 03:10 PM)
nopEda,
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
If feel certain that he could, but does not for deliberate reasons we don't know and you clearly can't even begin to try to imagine. I take if for granted that's the case.
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
If feel certain that he could, but does not for deliberate reasons we don't know and you clearly can't even begin to try to imagine. I take if for granted that's the case.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 26 2009, 07:14 PM)
QUOTE (pnelson419+)
If you said this to someone random they are not likely to think you are talking about aliens.
They would if they too had come to the conclusion that God would have to be an alien, since he couldn't very well be native to a planet he created billions of years after he himself came into being.
Unless the standard definition of "God" has changed to match yours then that would be another really Big If.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
They would if they too had come to the conclusion that God would have to be an alien, since he couldn't very well be native to a planet he created billions of years after he himself came into being.
Unless the standard definition of "God" has changed to match yours then that would be another really Big If.
QUOTE (vkamath+May 26 2009, 10:10 AM)
nopEda,
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
OR Admit your belief is no more valid than that of any other religion.
Dude! The prime directive, duh!
Provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence
OR Admit your belief is no more valid than that of any other religion.
Dude! The prime directive, duh!
QUOTE (gmilam+May 26 2009, 11:17 PM)
Dude! The prime directive, duh!
QUOTE (gmilam+May 26 2009, 11:17 PM)
Dude! The prime directive, duh!
Then all we need to do is develop warp drive technology.
Then all we need to do is develop warp drive technology.
QUOTE (nopEda+May 27 2009, 05:48 AM)
If feel certain that he could, but does not for deliberate reasons we don't know and you clearly can't even begin to try to imagine. I take if for granted that's the case.
That means you CANNOT provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence. I rest my case. 
That means you CANNOT provide a realistic and logical reason why the Alien God cannot provide the proof of his existence. I rest my case.
God
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
God is a deity in theistic and deistic religions and other belief systems, representing either the sole deity in monotheism, or a principal deity in polytheism.
God is most often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of the universe. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. The most common among these include omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence. God has also been conceived as being incorporeal, a personal being, the source of all moral obligation, and the "greatest conceivable existent". These attributes were all supported to varying degrees by the early Jewish, Christian and Muslim theologian philosophers, including Maimonides, Augustine of Hippo, and Al-Ghazali, respectively. Many notable medieval philosophers developed arguments for the existence of God.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
God is a deity in theistic and deistic religions and other belief systems, representing either the sole deity in monotheism, or a principal deity in polytheism.
God is most often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of the universe. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. The most common among these include omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence. God has also been conceived as being incorporeal, a personal being, the source of all moral obligation, and the "greatest conceivable existent". These attributes were all supported to varying degrees by the early Jewish, Christian and Muslim theologian philosophers, including Maimonides, Augustine of Hippo, and Al-Ghazali, respectively. Many notable medieval philosophers developed arguments for the existence of God.
QUOTE
Everything in life can be solved by adding more Star Trek.
Everything in Star Trek can be solved by adding more power.
Offered with a grain of salt.
Everything in Star Trek can be solved by adding more power.
QUOTE (buttershug+May 24 2009, 12:50 PM)
The Hexagon on Saturn shows that creations don't need a creator.
(so do other naturally occuring patterns.)
And it's belief in JC that has changed things not JC himself.
Did Sodom & Gomorrah burn itself or was it an asteroid?: http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm
(so do other naturally occuring patterns.)
And it's belief in JC that has changed things not JC himself.
Did Sodom & Gomorrah burn itself or was it an asteroid?: http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm
QUOTE (buttershug+May 24 2009, 12:50 PM)
The Hexagon on Saturn shows that creations don't need a creator.
(so do other naturally occuring patterns.)
And it's belief in JC that has changed things not JC himself.
Where does nature come from?
(so do other naturally occuring patterns.)
And it's belief in JC that has changed things not JC himself.
Where does nature come from?
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 28 2009, 10:50 PM)
Where does nature come from?
Where does God come from?
Where does God come from?
QUOTE (TheDoc+May 28 2009, 11:23 PM)
Where does God come from?
He always was. But here is a lecture I found on the net: http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/vide...e-god-come-from
He always was. But here is a lecture I found on the net: http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/vide...e-god-come-from
Defining God (or any supernatural entity) as simultaneously unlike anything in our experience and immune to experimentation or observation is an intellectual cheat. Less of a cheat is to request that God be removed from the discussion forum, but that is tantamount to saying that God doesn't matter in a factual, historical and physical sense.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 28 2009, 11:48 PM)
He always was. But here is a lecture I found on the net: http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/vide...e-god-come-from
Offtopic The answer to the dawkins evolutionary process that adds information to the Genome is Down Syndrome (looking on youtube).
Offtopic The answer to the dawkins evolutionary process that adds information to the Genome is Down Syndrome (looking on youtube).
TracerTong
There are many diseases that are caused by mutations to genes. It is the nature of mutations that some will be disadvantageous. One such is sickle cell anemia, however, the disease ALSO gives increased resistence to Malaria, leading to increased survival of it's sufferers where Malaria is rampant. Other mutations(increase of information) are helpful, one series of mutations lead to the increase of intelligence in one specific line of apes several million years ago, which is why we are able to have this conversation today. To say that all mutations have negative effects is not scientifically valid.
Ook, ook, as our ancestors would say.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Offtopic The answer to the dawkins evolutionary process that adds information to the Genome is Down Syndrome.
There are many diseases that are caused by mutations to genes. It is the nature of mutations that some will be disadvantageous. One such is sickle cell anemia, however, the disease ALSO gives increased resistence to Malaria, leading to increased survival of it's sufferers where Malaria is rampant. Other mutations(increase of information) are helpful, one series of mutations lead to the increase of intelligence in one specific line of apes several million years ago, which is why we are able to have this conversation today. To say that all mutations have negative effects is not scientifically valid.
Ook, ook, as our ancestors would say.
Grumpy
QUOTE (nopEda+May 23 2009, 04:10 PM)
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
QUOTE (vkamath+)
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
Who knows. They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not
to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
He want's us to come to Him by faith and not knowledge. I'll have to study it or someone else can. Heb. 11:6? Romans 10:17 - faith by hearing?
Berbible is really nice for keyword search or a search by subject, A topical Index.
Who knows. They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not
to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
He want's us to come to Him by faith and not knowledge. I'll have to study it or someone else can. Heb. 11:6? Romans 10:17 - faith by hearing?
Berbible is really nice for keyword search or a search by subject, A topical Index.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 29 2009, 06:03 AM)
He want's us to come to Him by faith and not knowledge.
Good enough. Lets not discuss Intelligent Design then.
Good enough. Lets not discuss Intelligent Design then.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 29 2009, 12:33 AM)
He want's us to come to Him by faith and not knowledge.
So did Bernie Madoff.
So did Bernie Madoff.
QUOTE (buttershug+May 29 2009, 12:09 PM)
So did Bernie Madoff.
nice.
nice.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 30 2009, 02:19 AM)
nice.
Pure faith can not distinguish between good and evil.
You need something outside of faith for that.
Pure faith can not distinguish between good and evil.
You need something outside of faith for that.
QUOTE (TheDoc+May 28 2009, 11:23 PM)
Where does God come from?
Wherever it is it's not from this planet.
Wherever it is it's not from this planet.
QUOTE (TracerTong+May 29 2009, 12:33 AM)
QUOTE (vkamath+)
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
Who knows. They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not
to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
He want's us to come to Him by faith and not knowledge. I'll have to study it or someone else can. Heb. 11:6? Romans 10:17 - faith by hearing?
Berbible is really nice for keyword search or a search by subject, A topical Index.
If he exists it seems pretty clear that he wants us to have the freedom to consider whether he exists or not. There could be any number of reasons why.
Who knows. They would have to decide how much influence they want to have, and if they exist it seems pretty clear to some of us that they've decided not
to have very much influence. There could be any number of reasons why.
He want's us to come to Him by faith and not knowledge. I'll have to study it or someone else can. Heb. 11:6? Romans 10:17 - faith by hearing?
Berbible is really nice for keyword search or a search by subject, A topical Index.
If he exists it seems pretty clear that he wants us to have the freedom to consider whether he exists or not. There could be any number of reasons why.
QUOTE (nopEda+)
If he exists it seems pretty clear that he wants us to have the freedom to consider whether he exists or not.
He doesn't seem to care if we think he doesn't exist.
He doesn't seem to care if we think he doesn't exist.
QUOTE (buttershug+May 30 2009, 11:35 AM)
Pure faith can not distinguish between good and evil.
You need something outside of faith for that.
Yes. True Love. In response to the talk about faith someone said:What you believe determines what you think.;What you think dictates what you do;And what you do dominates your life.(Ideas have consequences: http://www.icr.org/article/4632/)
God's aiming after our heart and not our mind.
You need something outside of faith for that.
Yes. True Love. In response to the talk about faith someone said:What you believe determines what you think.;What you think dictates what you do;And what you do dominates your life.(Ideas have consequences: http://www.icr.org/article/4632/)
God's aiming after our heart and not our mind.
TracerTong
I do all my thinking with my mind. You should try it once in a while.
Grumpy
QUOTE
God's aiming after our heart and not our mind.
I do all my thinking with my mind. You should try it once in a while.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 3 2009, 12:42 AM)
TracerTong
I do all my thinking with my mind. You should try it once in a while.
Grumpy
lol
I do all my thinking with my mind. You should try it once in a while.
Grumpy
lol
QUOTE (vkamath+May 31 2009, 09:46 PM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
If he exists it seems pretty clear that he wants us to have the freedom to consider whether he exists or not.
He doesn't seem to care if we think he doesn't exist.
No. We have to make the effort. If we do then we're told he cares, but if we never do then we're told it's fine with him if we burn in Hell forever. I choose to believe he would not be so inconsiderate, but even if he is I would rather be on his side than not.
He doesn't seem to care if we think he doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
No. We have to make the effort. If we do then we're told he cares, but if we never do then we're told it's fine with him if we burn in Hell forever. I choose to believe he would not be so inconsiderate, but even if he is I would rather be on his side than not.
So far you have put about 10 seconds into considering he does not exist.
I think if he does not exist then people would have to invent him. In which case some people would consider him omipotent. some would not. There would be many many different variations and sub variations.
He doesn't seem to care if we think he doesn't exist.
No. We have to make the effort. If we do then we're told he cares, but if we never do then we're told it's fine with him if we burn in Hell forever. I choose to believe he would not be so inconsiderate, but even if he is I would rather be on his side than not.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 3 2009, 07:21 AM)
No. We have to make the effort. If we do then we're told he cares, but if we never do then we're told it's fine with him if we burn in Hell forever. I choose to believe he would not be so inconsiderate, but even if he is I would rather be on his side than not.
Faith and realistic thinking are contradictory. It seems you are unable to choose. You are looking for an excuse to believe.
Faith and realistic thinking are contradictory. It seems you are unable to choose. You are looking for an excuse to believe.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 3 2009, 01:51 AM)
He doesn't seem to care if we think he doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
No. We have to make the effort. If we do then we're told he cares, but if we never do then we're told it's fine with him if we burn in Hell forever. I choose to believe he would not be so inconsiderate, but even if he is I would rather be on his side than not.
So far you have put about 10 seconds into considering he does not exist.
I think if he does not exist then people would have to invent him. In which case some people would consider him omipotent. some would not. There would be many many different variations and sub variations.
QUOTE (vkamath+May 23 2009, 08:18 AM)
The 4th item in nopEda's list.
4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he could not provide proof of his existence because doing so would change things too much.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
THE WISDOM OF GOD
FACT: Human wisdom can never, by itself, discover God.
God made foolish the wisdom of this world. (See 1st Cor 1:20-23 KJV)
The only way we can come to know God is by His Spirit, Jesus.
Walk (Grow in God) by continually believing in Jesus.
Reference: (http://www.icr.org/article/4654/ The Wisdom of God)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he could not provide proof of his existence because doing so would change things too much.
I am hoping nopEda will explain to us -
1) What would change if we know for sure that Aliens exist?
2) Why would Aliens care about changing things on Earth?
THE WISDOM OF GOD
FACT: Human wisdom can never, by itself, discover God.
God made foolish the wisdom of this world. (See 1st Cor 1:20-23 KJV)
The only way we can come to know God is by His Spirit, Jesus.
Walk (Grow in God) by continually believing in Jesus.
Reference: (http://www.icr.org/article/4654/ The Wisdom of God)
QUOTE (vkamath+Jun 4 2009, 10:57 PM)
Faith and realistic thinking are contradictory. It seems you are unable to choose. You are looking for an excuse to believe.
Hardly. Faith is the degree of confidence a person has that what they believe is correct, or realistic. So your interpretation of faith just happens to be the opposite of what it actually is. How funny is that ?
Here's an example you probably won't like:
The degree of faith a person has that God does not exist, is what determines how strong an atheist the person is or is not
.
If they have no faith, they can not be a strong atheist.
Hardly. Faith is the degree of confidence a person has that what they believe is correct, or realistic. So your interpretation of faith just happens to be the opposite of what it actually is.
How funny is that ?Here's an example you probably won't like:
The degree of faith a person has that God does not exist, is what determines how strong an atheist the person is or is not
. If they have no faith, they can not be a strong atheist.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 5 2009, 01:18 AM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
We have to make the effort. If we do then we're told he cares, but if we never do then we're told it's fine with him if we burn in Hell forever. I choose to believe he would not be so inconsiderate, but even if he is I would rather be on his side than not.
So far you have put about 10 seconds into considering he does not exist.
That's about how long it takes to cover the concept, if even that long. Well, let's find out:
God might not exist.
Wow, that took only 5 seconds with time left over. So I lingered for an extra 5 seconds the first time...oh well.
So far you have put about 10 seconds into considering he does not exist.
That's about how long it takes to cover the concept, if even that long. Well, let's find out:
God might not exist.
Wow, that took only 5 seconds with time left over. So I lingered for an extra 5 seconds the first time...oh well.
QUOTE (buttershug+)
I think if he does not exist then people would have to invent him.
For the Satanic Bible tells us so...
For the Satanic Bible tells us so...
QUOTE (buttershug+)
In which case some people would consider him omipotent. some would not. There would be many many different variations and sub variations.
Yet you insist we cling to the most unrealistic.
Then you gripe at me for not accepting your wacko variations. 
Yet you insist we cling to the most unrealistic.
Then you gripe at me for not accepting your wacko variations.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 11 2009, 08:59 PM)
Hardly. Faith is the degree of confidence a person has that what they believe is correct, or realistic.
As usual, you are playing with words to get out of a situation. There is one more definition of Faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
This is what I meant.
As usual, you are playing with words to get out of a situation. There is one more definition of Faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
QUOTE
2. belief that is not based on proof
This is what I meant.
QUOTE (vkamath+Jun 11 2009, 04:11 PM)
As usual, you are playing with words to get out of a situation. There is one more definition of Faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
This is what I meant.
Like that you were really born on the day you've been told you were. There's no way anyone could prove that, but you have faith in it. There are many such things like that people have faith in, but it's still faith. Whether it involves proof, evidence, or nothing more than a guess like strong atheism, faith is the degree of confidence a being has that it's correct about something.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
This is what I meant.
Like that you were really born on the day you've been told you were. There's no way anyone could prove that, but you have faith in it. There are many such things like that people have faith in, but it's still faith. Whether it involves proof, evidence, or nothing more than a guess like strong atheism, faith is the degree of confidence a being has that it's correct about something.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 11 2009, 03:45 PM)
So far you have put about 10 seconds into considering he does not exist. [/QUOTE]
That's about how long it takes to cover the concept, if even that long. Well, let's find out:
God might not exist.
Wow, that took only 5 seconds with time left over. So I lingered for an extra 5 seconds the first time...oh well.
That's about how long it takes to cover the concept, if even that long. Well, let's find out:
God might not exist.
Wow, that took only 5 seconds with time left over. So I lingered for an extra 5 seconds the first time...oh well.
QUOTE (buttershug+)
I think if he does not exist then people would have to invent him.
For the Satanic Bible tells us so...
For the Satanic Bible tells us so...
QUOTE (buttershug+)
In which case some people would consider him omipotent. some would not. There would be many many different variations and sub variations.
Yet you insist we cling to the most unrealistic. Then you gripe at me for not accepting your wacko variations.
And again you don't seriously considered the possibility that God does not exist.
(other than to transform him into a space alien.)
and now you are changing what faith means.
If you are going to play such games with words, why not give us a complete list.
Yet you insist we cling to the most unrealistic.
Then you gripe at me for not accepting your wacko variations. And again you don't seriously considered the possibility that God does not exist.
(other than to transform him into a space alien.)
and now you are changing what faith means.
If you are going to play such games with words, why not give us a complete list.
QUOTE (nopEda+)
Like that you were really born on the day you've been told you were. There's no way anyone could prove that, but you have faith in it.
I have reliable witnesses, my parents. I also have my birth certificate, again from reliable sources
No faith needed, unlike your stupid story about aliens creating the earth from the Church of Scientology cult.
I have reliable witnesses, my parents. I also have my birth certificate, again from reliable sources
No faith needed, unlike your stupid story about aliens creating the earth from the Church of Scientology cult.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 11 2009, 08:08 PM)
Like that you were really born on the day you've been told you were. There's no way anyone could prove that, but you have faith in it. There are many such things like that people have faith in, but it's still faith. Whether it involves proof, evidence, or nothing more than a guess like strong atheism, faith is the degree of confidence a being has that it's correct about something.
Oh dear,
I believe my date of birth is correct because of the documentation of the event. It is not proof, it is reasonable evidence of a mundane natural occurrence that was my birth. If it is wrong, it's wrong. It won't alter our understanding of how the universe works. This is very different from having religious faith that there is let's say; is an unverified being existing in some unverified place that sometimes is claimed to be omnipotent, sometimes claimed not, sometimes claimed interferes with earthly affairs to the extent of having personal relationships, children, dictating instructions, sometimes claimed is one god, three gods in one, sometimes many more gods. Sometimes it is claimed that he had is own son brutally *killed* in a suspiciously backward part of the world during a barbaric and particularly superstitious period in human history to pay for the sins of two earlier creations (made out of dirt & ribs) who ate an apple after being prompted by a snake (that talks!). Of course this 'son' was born of a virgin and rose from the dead after performing (let's be honest) David Blaine style magic.
And you compare faith in ones birth date with this?
Oh dear,
I believe my date of birth is correct because of the documentation of the event. It is not proof, it is reasonable evidence of a mundane natural occurrence that was my birth. If it is wrong, it's wrong. It won't alter our understanding of how the universe works. This is very different from having religious faith that there is let's say; is an unverified being existing in some unverified place that sometimes is claimed to be omnipotent, sometimes claimed not, sometimes claimed interferes with earthly affairs to the extent of having personal relationships, children, dictating instructions, sometimes claimed is one god, three gods in one, sometimes many more gods. Sometimes it is claimed that he had is own son brutally *killed* in a suspiciously backward part of the world during a barbaric and particularly superstitious period in human history to pay for the sins of two earlier creations (made out of dirt & ribs) who ate an apple after being prompted by a snake (that talks!). Of course this 'son' was born of a virgin and rose from the dead after performing (let's be honest) David Blaine style magic.
And you compare faith in ones birth date with this?
QUOTE (vkamath+Jun 11 2009, 08:55 PM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
Like that you were really born on the day you've been told you were. There's no way anyone could prove that, but you have faith in it.
I have reliable witnesses, my parents. I also have my birth certificate, again from reliable sources .
So they tell you
I have reliable witnesses, my parents. I also have my birth certificate, again from reliable sources
.So they tell you
QUOTE (vkamath+)
No faith needed, .
The amount of faith you have the amount of confidence you have that what you're being told is correct.
The amount of faith you have the amount of confidence you have that what you're being told is correct.
QUOTE (vkamath+)
unlike your stupid story about aliens creating the earth .
Some people believe God created the Earth. If so, he would have to be an alien
Some people believe God created the Earth. If so, he would have to be an alien
QUOTE (vkamath+)
from the Church of Scientology cult.
You people should get over that. Apparently you feel it's an insult, but I don't know anything about them and since I've never believed every thing taught by any faith I've been around, I doubt I'd believe everything they have to say either. Speaking of don't believe: I sure don't believe your suggestion that God created the planet of his own origin billions of years after he had already come into existence.
You people should get over that. Apparently you feel it's an insult, but I don't know anything about them and since I've never believed every thing taught by any faith I've been around, I doubt I'd believe everything they have to say either.
Speaking of don't believe: I sure don't believe your suggestion that God created the planet of his own origin billions of years after he had already come into existence. QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Jun 11 2009, 10:58 PM)
Oh dear,
I believe my date of birth is correct because of the documentation of the event. It is not proof, it is reasonable evidence
It's just marks on paper. The things you have faith in about it are what is evidence to you, not the scrawling itself.
I believe my date of birth is correct because of the documentation of the event. It is not proof, it is reasonable evidence
It's just marks on paper. The things you have faith in about it are what is evidence to you, not the scrawling itself.
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+)
of a mundane natural occurrence that was my birth. If it is wrong, it's wrong. It won't alter our understanding of how the universe works. This is very different from having religious faith
Nope. Faith is faith, whether it's in your birth date, or your name, or that beer will be in a beer can when you open it, or whatever it's in...
No, this is just a demonstration of the arrogance of theists. Your work is still ahead of you. With my birth date at least we can say that I exist, because there is evidence that I do exist and therefore was born. There is absolutely zero, none, zilch evidence of any god's, goddesses, demons, spirits, fairies etc, etc. So in other words if you can find a flaw in having faith in the accuracy of ones own birth date, you need several magnitudes more faith to believe something that not only might not even exist but that given what we know so far about the universe, might be impossible to exist and ultimately unnecessary. You need blind faith to believe that.
No evidence of spiritual? You probably think that the physical created the spiritual and your making absolute statements based upon something that isn't true. There are absolute and relative truths. Can we agree on that at least?
Nope. Faith is faith, whether it's in your birth date, or your name, or that beer will be in a beer can when you open it, or whatever it's in...
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+)
that there is let's say; is an unverified being existing in some unverified place that sometimes is claimed to be omnipotent, sometimes claimed not, sometimes claimed interferes with earthly affairs to the extent of having personal relationships, children, dictating instructions, sometimes claimed is one god, three gods in one, sometimes many more gods. Sometimes it is claimed that he had is own son brutally *killed* in a suspiciously backward part of the world during a barbaric and particularly superstitious period in human history to pay for the sins of two earlier creations (made out of dirt & ribs) who ate an apple after being prompted by a snake (that talks!). Of course this 'son' was born of a virgin and rose from the dead after performing (let's be honest) David Blaine style magic.
And you compare faith in ones birth date with this?
Faith is faith whatever it's in. The degree of faith a person has that God does not exist is what determines how strong an atheist the person is or is not. It's so easy, even a supposedly strong atheist should be able to comprehend.
And you compare faith in ones birth date with this?
Faith is faith whatever it's in. The degree of faith a person has that God does not exist is what determines how strong an atheist the person is or is not. It's so easy, even a supposedly strong atheist should be able to comprehend.
QUOTE (nopEda+)
The amount of faith you have the amount of confidence you have that what you're being told is correct.
You are playing with words again. Okay...lets go back to Lesson 1
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
You are confusing 1 with 2.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing
2. belief that is not based on proof
You are playing with words again. Okay...lets go back to Lesson 1
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
You are confusing 1 with 2.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing
2. belief that is not based on proof
QUOTE (nopEda+)
It's just marks on paper. The things you have faith in about it are what is evidence to you, not the scrawling itself.
Yes, it is just marks on paper, marks that when translated refer to a date (also a mark) that was my birth (a real event). I understand and accept that the date could be wrong. In order for me to believe it is or might be wrong, I would expect to see some strong evidence. If I felt strongly enough that the dates were wrong (despite having no evidence to suggest that the date is wrong) I would investigate as best I could, to see if my doubts were reasonable. I doubt it would take me 2000 + years to realise that there was no such evidence. Although I can never prove 100% that the date is correct, it would be more unreasonable to think the date is wrong. No faith required.
No, this is just a demonstration of the arrogance of theists. Your work is still ahead of you. With my birth date at least we can say that I exist, because there is evidence that I do exist and therefore was born. There is absolutely zero, none, zilch evidence of any god's, goddesses, demons, spirits, fairies etc, etc. So in other words if you can find a flaw in having faith in the accuracy of ones own birth date, you need several magnitudes more faith to believe something that not only might not even exist but that given what we know so far about the universe, might be impossible to exist and ultimately unnecessary. You need blind faith to believe that.
Yes, it is just marks on paper, marks that when translated refer to a date (also a mark) that was my birth (a real event). I understand and accept that the date could be wrong. In order for me to believe it is or might be wrong, I would expect to see some strong evidence. If I felt strongly enough that the dates were wrong (despite having no evidence to suggest that the date is wrong) I would investigate as best I could, to see if my doubts were reasonable. I doubt it would take me 2000 + years to realise that there was no such evidence. Although I can never prove 100% that the date is correct, it would be more unreasonable to think the date is wrong. No faith required.
QUOTE
Faith is faith whatever it's in. The degree of faith a person has that God does not exist is what determines how strong an atheist the person is or is not. It's so easy, even a supposedly strong atheist should be able to comprehend.
No, this is just a demonstration of the arrogance of theists. Your work is still ahead of you. With my birth date at least we can say that I exist, because there is evidence that I do exist and therefore was born. There is absolutely zero, none, zilch evidence of any god's, goddesses, demons, spirits, fairies etc, etc. So in other words if you can find a flaw in having faith in the accuracy of ones own birth date, you need several magnitudes more faith to believe something that not only might not even exist but that given what we know so far about the universe, might be impossible to exist and ultimately unnecessary. You need blind faith to believe that.
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Jun 14 2009, 03:36 PM)
No, this is just a demonstration of the arrogance of theists. Your work is still ahead of you. With my birth date at least we can say that I exist, because there is evidence that I do exist and therefore was born. There is absolutely zero, none, zilch evidence of any god's, goddesses, demons, spirits, fairies etc, etc. So in other words if you can find a flaw in having faith in the accuracy of ones own birth date, you need several magnitudes more faith to believe something that not only might not even exist but that given what we know so far about the universe, might be impossible to exist and ultimately unnecessary. You need blind faith to believe that.
No evidence of spiritual? You probably think that the physical created the spiritual and your making absolute statements based upon something that isn't true. There are absolute and relative truths. Can we agree on that at least?
QUOTE (TracerTong+Jun 15 2009, 02:53 PM)
No evidence of spiritual? You probably think that the physical created the spiritual and your making absolute statements based upon something that isn't true. There are absolute and relative truths. Can we agree on that at least?
But it's the spiritual people that claim absolute truths.
Or at least used to.
Why not "the physical created the spiritual"?
Especially since you have never really done a good job of explaining what is and what is not "physical".
But it's the spiritual people that claim absolute truths.
Or at least used to.
Why not "the physical created the spiritual"?
Especially since you have never really done a good job of explaining what is and what is not "physical".
QUOTE (vkamath+Jun 14 2009, 02:43 PM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
The amount of faith you have the amount of confidence you have that what you're being told is correct.
You are playing with words again. Okay...lets go back to Lesson 1
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
You are confusing 1 with 2.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing
2. belief that is not based on proof
Faith is the degree of confidence you have that something you believe to be true, is true. It doesn't matter if it's in regards to a person, a thing, an idea, or a belief that somethings does not exist or is false. Faith is faith, regardless of what it's in.
Why are you so desperate to try to make it different, can you explain that? Why the denial?
No, this is just a demonstration of the arrogance of theists. Your work is still ahead of you. With my birth date at least we can say that I exist, because there is evidence that I do exist and therefore was born. There is absolutely zero, none, zilch evidence of any god's, goddesses, demons, spirits, fairies etc, etc. So in other words if you can find a flaw in having faith in the accuracy of ones own birth date, you need several magnitudes more faith to believe something that not only might not even exist but that given what we know so far about the universe, might be impossible to exist and ultimately unnecessary. You need blind faith to believe that.
It's the way it is, and has nothing to do with whether or not a few theists might be a little arrogant.
You are playing with words again. Okay...lets go back to Lesson 1
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
You are confusing 1 with 2.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing
2. belief that is not based on proof
Faith is the degree of confidence you have that something you believe to be true, is true. It doesn't matter if it's in regards to a person, a thing, an idea, or a belief that somethings does not exist or is false. Faith is faith, regardless of what it's in.
Why are you so desperate to try to make it different, can you explain that? Why the denial?
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Jun 14 2009, 03:36 PM)
No, this is just a demonstration of the arrogance of theists. Your work is still ahead of you. With my birth date at least we can say that I exist, because there is evidence that I do exist and therefore was born. There is absolutely zero, none, zilch evidence of any god's, goddesses, demons, spirits, fairies etc, etc. So in other words if you can find a flaw in having faith in the accuracy of ones own birth date, you need several magnitudes more faith to believe something that not only might not even exist but that given what we know so far about the universe, might be impossible to exist and ultimately unnecessary. You need blind faith to believe that.
It's the way it is, and has nothing to do with whether or not a few theists might be a little arrogant.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 15 2009, 04:34 PM)
But it's the spiritual people that claim absolute truths.
Or at least used to.
Some strong atheists believe they know the truth too.
Or at least used to.
Some strong atheists believe they know the truth too.
QUOTE (buttershug+)
Why not "the physical created the spiritual"?
That seems most likely.
Why are you so desperate to try to make it different, can you explain that? Why the denial?
Any meaningful discussion is only possible when you stop switching between 2 meanings of the same word.
That seems most likely.
QUOTE (buttershug+)
Especially since you have never really done a good job of explaining what is and what is not "physical".
Everything would be/is, even if there's some truth to what we so far consider to be spiritiual. I should add that to the list.
17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.
It goes well with:
3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.
Everything would be/is, even if there's some truth to what we so far consider to be spiritiual. I should add that to the list.
17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.
It goes well with:
3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 15 2009, 10:20 PM)
Why are you so desperate to try to make it different, can you explain that? Why the denial?
Any meaningful discussion is only possible when you stop switching between 2 meanings of the same word.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 15 2009, 12:09 PM)
3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.
Honestly, this has got to be the stupidest tautology I have ever read in my life. I can't believe people are still arguing with this troll.
would be natural for them.
Honestly, this has got to be the stupidest tautology I have ever read in my life. I can't believe people are still arguing with this troll.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 15 2009, 04:34 PM)
But it's the spiritual people that claim absolute truths.
Or at least used to.
Why not "the physical created the spiritual"?
Especially since you have never really done a good job of explaining what is and what is not "physical".
Anything that we cannot see, hear, feel, taste, or touch is nonphysical. Agreed? Since the physical focuses on what we can see, hear, feel, taste, or touch.
Or at least used to.
Why not "the physical created the spiritual"?
Especially since you have never really done a good job of explaining what is and what is not "physical".
Anything that we cannot see, hear, feel, taste, or touch is nonphysical. Agreed? Since the physical focuses on what we can see, hear, feel, taste, or touch.
So... Atoms are not physical?
How about space? Germs? Viruses?
How about space? Germs? Viruses?
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jun 15 2009, 07:52 PM)
So... Atoms are not physical?
How about space? Germs? Viruses?
Can information be both? Logic, intelligence, what about your beliefs? Are you using truth to try to prove that truth doesn't exist?
How about space? Germs? Viruses?
Can information be both? Logic, intelligence, what about your beliefs? Are you using truth to try to prove that truth doesn't exist?
QUOTE (TracerTong+Jun 15 2009, 02:49 PM)
Anything that we cannot see, hear, feel, taste, or touch is nonphysical. Agreed? Since the physical focuses on what we can see, hear, feel, taste, or touch.
No. That would make radio waves non-physical.
No. That would make radio waves non-physical.
QUOTE (gmilam+Jun 15 2009, 08:08 PM)
No. That would make radio waves non-physical.
What about love? You are loved.
What about love? You are loved.
QUOTE (TracerTong+Jun 15 2009, 02:53 PM)
No evidence of spiritual? You probably think that the physical created the spiritual and your making absolute statements based upon something that isn't true. There are absolute and relative truths. Can we agree on that at least?
Well ok, if you define 'spirituality' as the feeling of awe or wonder, perhaps a feeling that you are one with the universe, life, dwarfed by the scale, reflecting on the improbability of ones own existence etc, etc, then maybe we could all agree on a word that sums up that kind of thing.
However, if you wander off into the popular stream of thinking (I often hear) which refers to spirituality as some asserted non-physical entity or place/realm etc. then it encroaches on our scientific, physical understanding of the universe and thus must run the same gauntlet of verification as other claims on reality.
Incidentally, the word spiritual has very physical roots. Many ancient folks used to believe that God's 'spirit' was everywhere, however they didn't mean it in some iffy 'non physical' way, they meant literally the breath of god or the god's. They also believed that our spirits were something to do with our breath. So it follows that to be inspired was to literally breathe in the spirit of god/s, to expire was to literally loose the spirit. As our knowledge of the respiratory system increased, this idea of literal 'spirits' decreased or receded to it's more common 'non-physical' modern variant.
Well ok, if you define 'spirituality' as the feeling of awe or wonder, perhaps a feeling that you are one with the universe, life, dwarfed by the scale, reflecting on the improbability of ones own existence etc, etc, then maybe we could all agree on a word that sums up that kind of thing.
However, if you wander off into the popular stream of thinking (I often hear) which refers to spirituality as some asserted non-physical entity or place/realm etc. then it encroaches on our scientific, physical understanding of the universe and thus must run the same gauntlet of verification as other claims on reality.
Incidentally, the word spiritual has very physical roots. Many ancient folks used to believe that God's 'spirit' was everywhere, however they didn't mean it in some iffy 'non physical' way, they meant literally the breath of god or the god's. They also believed that our spirits were something to do with our breath. So it follows that to be inspired was to literally breathe in the spirit of god/s, to expire was to literally loose the spirit. As our knowledge of the respiratory system increased, this idea of literal 'spirits' decreased or receded to it's more common 'non-physical' modern variant.
QUOTE (TracerTong+Jun 15 2009, 03:14 PM)
What about love? You are loved.
Ironically, I can also feel love.
Ironically, I can also feel love.
QUOTE (vkamath+Jun 15 2009, 06:39 PM)
QUOTE (nopEda pointed out+)
Faith is faith, regardless of what it's in.
Why are you so desperate to try to make it different, can you explain that? Why the denial?
Why are you so desperate to try to make it different, can you explain that? Why the denial?
Any meaningful discussion is only possible when you stop switching between 2 meanings of the same word.
Why do you want to deny that the faith of the atheist is no different than that of any other faith?
How do you want people to think it might be superior?
Why do you want to deny that the faith of the atheist is no different than that of any other faith?
How
do you want people to think it might be superior?
QUOTE (gmilam+Jun 15 2009, 06:47 PM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.
would be natural for them.
Honestly, this has got to be the stupidest tautology I have ever read in my life. I can't believe people are still arguing with this troll.
Well, you certainly don't have any argument against what I pointed out there.
Well, you certainly don't have any argument against what I pointed out there
.
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Jun 15 2009, 08:21 PM)
if you wander off into the popular stream of thinking (I often hear) which refers to spirituality as some asserted non-physical entity or place/realm etc. then it encroaches on our scientific, physical understanding of the universe and thus must run the same gauntlet of verification as other claims on reality.
11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.
12. We should not allow childlike and unrealistic attempts at comparing
the concept of gods with those of childlike ideas like the tooth fairy,
the Easter Bunny, invisible pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters etc
encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate and interfere
with our own attempts to think about this topic realistically.
11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.
12. We should not allow childlike and unrealistic attempts at comparing
the concept of gods with those of childlike ideas like the tooth fairy,
the Easter Bunny, invisible pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters etc
encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate and interfere
with our own attempts to think about this topic realistically.
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 16 2009, 11:04 AM)
Well, you certainly don't have any argument against what I pointed out there .
It's hard to know where to begin when arguing with nonsense. It's best to let it speak for itself.
. It's hard to know where to begin when arguing with nonsense. It's best to let it speak for itself.
QUOTE (nopEda+)
Why do you want to deny that the faith of the atheist is no different than that of any other faith?
Calling Atheism a faith is like calling Black a color OR Off a TV channel. It is a lack of faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
2. belief that is not based on proof
Calling Atheism a faith is like calling Black a color OR Off a TV channel. It is a lack of faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Faith
2. belief that is not based on proof
QUOTE (nopEda+)
How laugh.gif do you want people to think it might be superior?
Who said anything about superior? Sounds like you have a inferiority complex.
Who said anything about superior? Sounds like you have a inferiority complex.
QUOTE (gmilam+Jun 16 2009, 04:07 PM)
It's hard to know where to begin when arguing with nonsense.
You appeared to have a problem with this:
You appeared to have a problem with this:
QUOTE (nopEda+)
3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.
so to begin you should try to explain how you think things that happen can also be supernatural, so people can get some idea of what it is you think you're trying to talk about. How do you think things that happen can also be supernatural?
would be natural for them.
so to begin you should try to explain how you think things that happen can also be supernatural, so people can get some idea of what it is you think you're trying to talk about. How do you think things that happen can also be supernatural?
QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 17 2009, 11:37 AM)
You appeared to have a problem with this:
QUOTE (nopEda+)
3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.
so to begin you should try to explain how you think things that happen can also be supernatural, so people can get some idea of what it is you think you're trying to talk about. How do you think things that happen can also be supernatural?
I don't believe in the supernatural, so you're asking the wrong person.
But you seem to believe it is possible for aliens to appear to be supernatural, so maybe you better explain that.
would be natural for them.
so to begin you should try to explain how you think things that happen can also be supernatural, so people can get some idea of what it is you think you're trying to talk about. How do you think things that happen can also be supernatural?
I don't believe in the supernatural, so you're asking the wrong person.
But you seem to believe it is possible for aliens to appear to be supernatural, so maybe you better explain that.
QUOTE (vkamath+Jun 16 2009, 04:20 PM)
QUOTE (nopEda+)
Why do you want to deny that the faith of the atheist is no different than that of any other faith?
Calling Atheism a faith is like calling Black a color OR Off a TV channel. It is a lack of faith.
You're only talking about weak atheism. Strong atheism requires faith in one possibility:
_________________________________________________________
. . .
Strong atheism is a term generally used to describe atheists who accept
as true the proposition, "gods do not exist". Weak atheism refers to any
type of non-theism which falls short of this standard.
. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism
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Calling Atheism a faith is like calling Black a color OR Off a TV channel. It is a lack of faith.
You're only talking about weak atheism. Strong atheism requires faith in one possibility:
_________________________________________________________
. . .
Strong atheism is a term generally used to describe atheists who accept
as true the proposition, "gods do not exist". Weak atheism refers to any
type of non-theism which falls short of this standard.
. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism
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QUOTE (nopEda+Jun 17 2009, 10:15 PM)
You're only talking about weak atheism. Strong atheism requires faith in one possibility:
_________________________________________________________
. . .
Strong atheism is a term generally used to describe atheists who accept
as true the proposition, "gods do not exist". Weak atheism refers to any
type of non-theism which falls short of this standard.
. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
I don't think it is unreasonable to say that "Gods do not exist", when there is not evidence for God. It is similar to saying "tooth fairies do not exist". Everyone is "strong atheist" about tooth fairies, why not God? It is asserting the lack of faith in god, rather than a faith. However, I prefer to say "There is no evidence for God" as that is more accurate.
_________________________________________________________
. . .
Strong atheism is a term generally used to describe atheists who accept
as true the proposition, "gods do not exist". Weak atheism refers to any
type of non-theism which falls short of this standard.
. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
I don't think it is unreasonable to say that "Gods do not exist", when there is not evidence for God. It is similar to saying "tooth fairies do not exist". Everyone is "strong atheist" about tooth fairies, why not God? It is asserting the lack of faith in god, rather than a faith. However, I prefer to say "There is no evidence for God" as that is more accurate.
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