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uaafanblog
With less than 500 years of real science in our history humanity has made some significant strides in putting some fairy tales behind us. The microscope is probably the tool that more than any other revealed the truth of the small in our world. The telescope (in all wavelengths) is everyday showing us the truth of the large universe and particle accelerators have come along way defining quanta. Of course there are many other examples of science tools that help put mythological answers into the past.

It's should be obvious though that overall science has failed to usurp what could be viewed as the final mythology: theistic religion.

With that being the case then, when? How long will it be before science is accepted and believed wholly by humanity? Does every human have to have access to the science before it happens? Is there some information yet to be discovered that will have the leaders of institutional theistic organizations step up and say, "Science is right ... we were wrong."?

Or does the questioning nature of science presuppose that it cannot reach the necessary threshold to establish itself once and for all as the eminent provider of answers? I'll use a bit of controversial example here; the Big Bang Theory is science's explanation for our existence. Yet it is full of problems that allow both science and mythologists to criticize it (BBT'ers please refrain from explaining how perfect the BBT is). This "give and take" of science is very important of course, as it is the method by which the ultimate truths (which are necessary for dominance) finally take shape. It is science's way to say ... "we aren't sure yet" ... right?

Is it all just part of a long drawn out culture war that will eventually be settled? How can science ensure it's fair chance to rise to dominance? Should it become more involved in politics? The religionists are organized ... are science organizations anywhere near as effective? Does science need to emulate the religionists and establish it's own temples for fellowship?

Don't humans who rely on reason have an obligation to contribute to the downfall of mythology?

Yeah ... I know .. that's a lot of questions.
vkamath
The short answer is...probably never.

I think enough scientific advancement has been made to explain most phenomena which directly effect humans. Faith by definition is Not based in rational thinking, hence any amount of science will have little impact on faith. The need for god is psychological. The world is a dangerous place where few things are in human control. Some people feel secure by having the faith that a highly powerful father figure in the sky will make it alright. Some others can't get themselves to accept the inherent meaninglessness in life and try to find the meaning in religion. Also there is the community that comes with religion which appeals to humans who are social animals after all.

I think Science should do what it does best and there is no need to get more organized or involved in politics. If a theory is proved beyond doubt, there are only 2 option for a person - a)Understands the theory and accept it. b ) Fail to understand the theory and reject it. Getting more organized/ involved in politics will only give a reason for the person who has not understood it to complain.
buttershug
I've long had an interest in magic tricks.
I'm trying to remember where I read about a simple mentalist trick (simple tricks can be the most effective.) The author said that you can show the trick then explain to people how it you did it, and some will claim that no it's real and not a trick.

Even after being shown how the trick worked people believed it was physic powers.
So it appears some people prefer myths.

I haven't had that happen to me personally but it would be interesting.
MjolnirPants
Religion has distinct advantages in it's battle with naturalism: Religion in it's core message, asserts a positive and thus can never be proven wrong (although many of it's specific claims can be to a reasonable extent), religion embraces faith based reasoning, thus requiring no evidence to be proven right and religion can redefine itself to suit any situation.
Naturalism on the other hand, asserts only tentative positive and negative specific claims including no core message, and thus can always be proven wrong, embraces logic and evidence-based reasoning, thus requiring significant evidence in order to be proven right and cannot redefine itself to suit specific goals.

The mere existence of religious naturalism and pantheism shows just how capably religion can deal with any level of assault from naturalism, and based on all of this, I don't think naturalism will ever fully replace religion, although I do believe naturalism will eventually come to dominate our modes of thought, precluding the widespread acceptance of religious-based claims which run contrary to the preponderance of evidence, and making faith-based reasoning as distasteful to our future society as race-based and sex-based thinking is to our own.
sporacle
The long course of the evolution of human understanding from ancient mythology to scientific method is complicated and messy, and obviously the arguments continue. It also includes the long and painful evolutionary transition in human interaction from competition to cooperation.

We are still primitive creatures. In most contexts the big questions are:
Who won?
Who is doing it with whom?
uaafanblog
Assume that in today's world that 90 percent of people "believe" some mythological basis for our existence. Of that 90 percent, I'd expect that somewhere around 80-90 percent of them "believe" ... it is because they've been indoctrinated/programmed as children and/or because their insipid minds find using their reasoning faculties difficult ... i.e... most people hate to think.

It is those "sheep" that science must capture but it is impossible to make the case to them. I believe that science has a responsibility to pimp itself more. Scientists need to stand up (ala Richard Dawkins) and make it's case to the 10 percent or so of people who don't hate thinking. Science doesn't have to convince the sheep. Convincing the 10 percent that actually utilize their reasoning should be enough. The sheep follow them.

So who are these 10 percent? They are the men and women in power in todays world. They are politicians and businessmen that currently kowtow to the religionists because they see that as their path to success. Do you really think Barack Obama goes to church to renew his faith? No ... he goes to appease that segment of his supporters.

My future-sense tells me that unless Science begins to be much more highly active politically, culturally and socially that at some point reasoning people outside of science are likely to take the same sort of political action that we see the nutbag rightwingers taking these days with regard to issues like abortion. They feel powerless in the face of current law so they take it into their own hands. I'm afraid at some point even generally rational people who see that religion is fvcking the world (and that is as certain as death and taxes) will take matters into their own hands. Pissed off righties have given us 9/11, Olympic bombings and murdered doctors ... Pissed off lefties have easier targets and many many more of them.

Trolling:
So .. scientists: Find ways to incorporate your truths into the cultural and political world. Start doing it now. Without an ongoing effort today, I fear greatly for tomorrow's churches. I believe it is your RESPONSIBILITY to do so. I know there are many among you who would disagree and say that a scientists job is to do science and nothing more. You probably think Edward Teller was a great scientist when in fact he was a sniveling pig. The future NEEDS scientists to become activists.
FGG
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Jun 2 2009, 08:52 AM)
With less than 500 years of real science in our history humanity has made some significant strides in putting some fairy tales behind us.  The microscope is probably the tool that more than any other revealed the truth of the small in our world.  The telescope (in all wavelengths) is everyday showing us the truth of the large universe and particle accelerators have come along way defining quanta.  Of course there are many other examples of science tools that help put mythological answers into the past. 

It's should be obvious though that overall science has failed to usurp what could be viewed as the final mythology: theistic religion.

With that being the case then, when?  How long will it be before science is accepted and believed wholly by humanity?  Does every human have to have access to the science before it happens?  Is there some information yet to be discovered that will have the leaders of institutional theistic organizations step up and say, "Science is right ... we were wrong."?

Or does the questioning nature of science presuppose that it cannot reach the necessary threshold to establish itself once and for all as the eminent provider of answers?  I'll use a bit of controversial example here; the Big Bang Theory is science's explanation for our existence.  Yet it is full of problems that allow both science and mythologists to criticize it (BBT'ers please refrain from explaining how perfect the BBT is).  This "give and take" of science is very important of course, as it is the method by which the ultimate truths (which are necessary for dominance) finally take shape.  It is science's way to say ... "we aren't sure yet" ... right?

Is it all just part of a long drawn out culture war that will eventually be settled?  How can science ensure it's fair chance to rise to dominance?  Should it become more involved in politics?  The religionists are organized ... are science organizations anywhere near as effective?  Does science need to emulate the religionists and establish it's own temples for fellowship? 

Don't humans who rely on reason have an obligation to contribute to the downfall of mythology?

Yeah ... I know .. that's a lot of questions.

Science has already replaced religion as the primary method of explaining the natural world! That is what god was created to do!

The only places that religion are still supreme (pun intended) is in the area of supernatural, by definition not in the domain of science or by those willing to close their eyes to evidence so to not shatter their needed belief in a god. I characterize this as a need for belief! Some people are so scared/disturbed by the thought that it all ends when we die that they will do anything to escape this unpleasant reality.

The depths to which humans will go to delude themselves is truly amazing.

FGG
FGG
Deleted multiple posts unsure.gif
pnelson419
QUOTE (FGG+Jun 5 2009, 01:45 PM)
Some people are so scared/disturbed by the thought that it all ends when we die that they will do anything to escape this unpleasant reality.


I don't think the idea of it all ending when we die is what bothers most people but that it may not.

You say it is a reality.

What guarantee can you give of that?

uaafanblog
QUOTE (pnelson419+Jun 6 2009, 01:48 AM)
I don't think the idea of it all ending when we die is what bothers most people but that it may not.

You say it is a reality.

What guarantee can you give of that?

There is no guarantee per se ... however science gives us plenty of reasons to believe death is the end.

I think people INNATELY know this. We aren't comfortable with it because an inevitable doom and our conscious will to go on are in opposition. That's why it makes perfect sense that we'd create myths whose key components are all an "afterlife" of some sort.

And the very fact that so many mythologies share the concept of an "afterlife" is an indication of this. No matter what humans imagined (and that's where myths come from) the universe to be, they ALL came to the conclusion that there is this so-called "afterlife".

Cognitive dissonance at work.
uaafanblog
QUOTE (FGG+Jun 5 2009, 06:45 PM)
The only places that religion are still supreme (pun intended) is in the area of supernatural, by definition not in the domain of science or by those willing to close their eyes to evidence so to not shatter their needed belief in a god.

I'd disagree ... in a large number of countries religion is a strongly placed primary driver in both politics and culture. Mostly, the west doesn't compare in those terms to places like Indonesia or Saudi Arabia but in the U.S. there are many of the same overtones.

I love what I see on TV sometimes ... recently I've noted more than a few talking heads decrying "moral relativism". I laugh my arse off at that phrase. The exercise of defining and utilizing ANY "moral" structure is by it's nature one of "relativism". They toss it out of course, because they're promoting the idea that Jehovah gave us these morals; so they cannot be relative but instead are absolute. But those people using such phraseology have a BIG voice and use their sophistry to convince the sheep. Science will never use such tactics. It is at a disadvantage because of that.

Science is capable of designing it's own rise to replace religion. I wish it would.
uaafanblog
QUOTE (Fior+Jun 6 2009, 03:21 AM)
Hi,

I hope there is no afterlife. Ive had enough as is.
Thank you.

Yeah ... the idea of a an entirely peaceful eternal sleep isn't so horrible.
RobDegraves
The problem as I see it is an inherent one in all humans... and it's not the one you might think of.



The major problem is that people have a really hard time saying.. "I don't know".



Instead of saying "I don't know if there is an afterlife or God" people will tell you.. "Yes there is and I can sell you tickets to get there"... or "No, don't be so stupid, of course there is no God or afterlife".

Very rarely will anyone tell you they don't know. However, the fact is that there is no way to know any of these things at this present time. We don't know enough about time, life, the universe, sentience, etc. in order to say one way or another. I can say.. "I think it's pretty unlikely that Sylvia Brown is anything but a fat phony"... but I can't really say.. "I know that there is no God (s)". Simply speaking, the existence or non existence of such phenomena is impossible to ascertain at our present level of knowledge.

It's like when the discussion turns to aliens. Everyone believes one thing or another but no one will say that they don't have enough evidence to make a decision one way or another.

Is there life on other planets?

We don't know because we only have a statistic of one and no one yet has duplicated life.

Is there a God (s)?

Let's face it.. if I were omnipotent and felt like hiding... I sure could. On the other hand, I have no evidence that there is.

Is death the end?

Here again, we have a pretty limited view of existence. How do you say what is the end and what isn't?

Ever watch Dr Who? Great show btw, especially the older stuff. It has often struck me on how Dr Who would essentially consider everyone he ever met essentially eternal. No matter what happened, he could always go back and have a chat with them, even if they had died millenia ago from his point of view. Even if he had seen someone horribly destroyed in front of his own eyes, a few button presses later and bing, he could be having tea with them somewhere exotic. Or... he could be lost utterly somewhere bizarre... depending on how well the Tardis worked that day.

So... do we know enough to say when, assuming that word is even applicable, life ends? Sentience ends? Existence?


I don't actually know.

Do you?
buttershug
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jun 6 2009, 06:51 AM)
The problem as I see it is an inherent one in all humans... and it's not the one you might think of.



The major problem is that people have a really hard time saying.. "I don't know".



Some more than others and some on even minor things.

Once at work on a Monday we were told we were going to build something on the Wednesday. But the engineering staff had left out a detail and weren't there that day but would be back the next day.

To me no problem, they come back Tuesday, we say "do want it this way or that way?", and we build it how they want it the next day.

But the supervisor paced and paced and got agitated then said, "ok this is how we are going to do it."

I wish I could remember if he got it right or not. To me we didn't know how engineering wanted it but it didn't matter because they would be back before we needed to know.

I've noticed that such people are actuallly the worst for learning. I think because you don't know what you will be learning when you start and they can't stand such uncertainty. But that's extreme cases.
uaafanblog
Rob,
There's no disputing what you've said. However, the possibility that there is an afterlife is miniscule based on what we know about how mythologies come to be. In fact, I'd doubt there is a single piece of "evidence" of any kind that would be considered reliable in support of any of them. With that in mind the people who are in the "I don't know" category should really be in the "I seriously doubt it" category; shouldn't they? I think they aren't in that category because Science hasn't stepped forward and become the cultural and political force that it could easily become. I say easily because it is Science that already has a deep understanding of sociology. I guess what I'm getting at with this whole thread is that Science needs it's own version of Edward Bernays.

He singlehandedly did more to influence the social fabric/culture than any other person in the 20th century. He had a deep almost innate understanding for what drives humans. Science knows everything he knew and ought to be utilizing those tools to gain adherents.

I suppose all this is in a way asking the question, "Should science kill god once and for all?"
RobDegraves
uaafanblog

With all due respect I think that your one statement is incorrect to a certain degree.

QUOTE
However, the possibility that there is an afterlife is miniscule based on what we know about how mythologies come to be.


Don't you think that this should be more correctly restated as...

-However, the possibility that our current models of an afterlife are correct is minuscule based on what we know about how mythologies come to be.-

Just because we are wrong about the model does not invalidate the idea that some other model might be correct. The point is that the subject cannot be decided at this point in our scientific development.

Again, this puts me in the "I don't know" category.


However....


This does not mean that people should feel free to tell me that their particular religious beliefs are correct just because I don't know the answer to those basic questions.

Even though I don't know, I am pretty sure that they don't either.

Maybe someday someone will come along with a brilliant explanation or model and maybe even some evidence for it. Then I will be thrilled. Until then...

I just don't know.
uaafanblog
Rob,
I don't know; I certainly acknowledge that a possibility exists. QM tells us that. It also tells us that the chances of an afterlife as conceived by pretty much any religion are about equal to an afterlife dressed as pirates in the eternal light of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And perhaps we're just parsing words here or it's a matter of perspective ... but "I seriously doubt it" seems more appropriate.
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