With less than 500 years of real science in our history humanity has made some significant strides in putting some fairy tales behind us. The microscope is probably the tool that more than any other revealed the truth of the small in our world. The telescope (in all wavelengths) is everyday showing us the truth of the large universe and particle accelerators have come along way defining quanta. Of course there are many other examples of science tools that help put mythological answers into the past.
It's should be obvious though that overall science has failed to usurp what could be viewed as the final mythology: theistic religion.
With that being the case then, when? How long will it be before science is accepted and believed wholly by humanity? Does every human have to have access to the science before it happens? Is there some information yet to be discovered that will have the leaders of institutional theistic organizations step up and say, "Science is right ... we were wrong."?
Or does the questioning nature of science presuppose that it cannot reach the necessary threshold to establish itself once and for all as the eminent provider of answers? I'll use a bit of controversial example here; the Big Bang Theory is science's explanation for our existence. Yet it is full of problems that allow both science and mythologists to criticize it (BBT'ers please refrain from explaining how perfect the BBT is). This "give and take" of science is very important of course, as it is the method by which the ultimate truths (which are necessary for dominance) finally take shape. It is science's way to say ... "we aren't sure yet" ... right?
Is it all just part of a long drawn out culture war that will eventually be settled? How can science ensure it's fair chance to rise to dominance? Should it become more involved in politics? The religionists are organized ... are science organizations anywhere near as effective? Does science need to emulate the religionists and establish it's own temples for fellowship?
Don't humans who rely on reason have an obligation to contribute to the downfall of mythology?
Yeah ... I know .. that's a lot of questions.
Science has already replaced religion as the primary method of explaining the natural world! That is what god was created to do!
The only places that religion are still supreme (pun intended) is in the area of supernatural, by definition not in the domain of science or by those willing to close their eyes to evidence so to not shatter their needed belief in a god. I characterize this as a need for belief! Some people are so scared/disturbed by the thought that it all ends when we die that they will do anything to escape this unpleasant reality.
The depths to which humans will go to delude themselves is truly amazing.
FGG
pnelson419
6th June 2009 - 01:48 AM
QUOTE (FGG+Jun 5 2009, 01:45 PM)
Some people are so scared/disturbed by the thought that it all ends when we die that they will do anything to escape this unpleasant reality.
I don't think the idea of it all ending when we die is what bothers most people but that it may not.
You say it is a reality.
What guarantee can you give of that?
uaafanblog
6th June 2009 - 03:09 AM
QUOTE (pnelson419+Jun 6 2009, 01:48 AM)
I don't think the idea of it all ending when we die is what bothers most people but that it may not.
You say it is a reality.
What guarantee can you give of that?
There is no guarantee per se ... however science gives us plenty of reasons to believe death is the end.
I think people INNATELY know this. We aren't comfortable with it because an inevitable doom and our conscious will to go on are in opposition. That's why it makes perfect sense that we'd create myths whose key components are all an "afterlife" of some sort.
And the very fact that so many mythologies share the concept of an "afterlife" is an indication of this. No matter what humans imagined (and that's where myths come from) the universe to be, they ALL came to the conclusion that there is this so-called "afterlife".
Cognitive dissonance at work.
uaafanblog
6th June 2009 - 03:40 AM
QUOTE (FGG+Jun 5 2009, 06:45 PM)
The only places that religion are still supreme (pun intended) is in the area of supernatural, by definition not in the domain of science or by those willing to close their eyes to evidence so to not shatter their needed belief in a god.
I'd disagree ... in a large number of countries religion is a strongly placed primary driver in both politics and culture. Mostly, the west doesn't compare in those terms to places like Indonesia or Saudi Arabia but in the U.S. there are many of the same overtones.
I love what I see on TV sometimes ... recently I've noted more than a few talking heads decrying "moral relativism". I laugh my arse off at that phrase. The exercise of defining and utilizing ANY "moral" structure is by it's nature one of "relativism". They toss it out of course, because they're promoting the idea that Jehovah gave us these morals; so they cannot be relative but instead are absolute. But those people using such phraseology have a BIG voice and use their sophistry to convince the sheep. Science will never use such tactics. It is at a disadvantage because of that.
Science is capable of designing it's own rise to replace religion. I wish it would.
uaafanblog
6th June 2009 - 03:43 AM
QUOTE (Fior+Jun 6 2009, 03:21 AM)
Hi,
I hope there is no afterlife. Ive had enough as is.
Thank you.
Yeah ... the idea of a an entirely peaceful eternal sleep isn't so horrible.
RobDegraves
6th June 2009 - 06:51 AM
The problem as I see it is an inherent one in all humans... and it's not the one you might think of.
The major problem is that people have a really hard time saying.. "I don't know".
Instead of saying "I don't know if there is an afterlife or God" people will tell you.. "Yes there is and I can sell you tickets to get there"... or "No, don't be so stupid, of course there is no God or afterlife".
Very rarely will anyone tell you they don't know. However, the fact is that there is no way to know any of these things at this present time. We don't know enough about time, life, the universe, sentience, etc. in order to say one way or another. I can say.. "I think it's pretty unlikely that Sylvia Brown is anything but a fat phony"... but I can't really say.. "I know that there is no God (s)". Simply speaking, the existence or non existence of such phenomena is impossible to ascertain at our present level of knowledge.
It's like when the discussion turns to aliens. Everyone believes one thing or another but no one will say that they don't have enough evidence to make a decision one way or another.
Is there life on other planets?
We don't know because we only have a statistic of one and no one yet has duplicated life.
Is there a God (s)?
Let's face it.. if I were omnipotent and felt like hiding... I sure could. On the other hand, I have no evidence that there is.
Is death the end?
Here again, we have a pretty limited view of existence. How do you say what is the end and what isn't?
Ever watch Dr Who? Great show btw, especially the older stuff. It has often struck me on how Dr Who would essentially consider everyone he ever met essentially eternal. No matter what happened, he could always go back and have a chat with them, even if they had died millenia ago from his point of view. Even if he had seen someone horribly destroyed in front of his own eyes, a few button presses later and bing, he could be having tea with them somewhere exotic. Or... he could be lost utterly somewhere bizarre... depending on how well the Tardis worked that day.
So... do we know enough to say when, assuming that word is even applicable, life ends? Sentience ends? Existence?
I don't actually know.
Do you?
buttershug
6th June 2009 - 12:53 PM
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jun 6 2009, 06:51 AM)
The problem as I see it is an inherent one in all humans... and it's not the one you might think of.
The major problem is that people have a really hard time saying.. "I don't know".
Some more than others and some on even minor things.
Once at work on a Monday we were told we were going to build something on the Wednesday. But the engineering staff had left out a detail and weren't there that day but would be back the next day.
To me no problem, they come back Tuesday, we say "do want it this way or that way?", and we build it how they want it the next day.
But the supervisor paced and paced and got agitated then said, "ok this is how we are going to do it."
I wish I could remember if he got it right or not. To me we didn't know how engineering wanted it but it didn't matter because they would be back before we needed to know.
I've noticed that such people are actuallly the worst for learning. I think because you don't know what you will be learning when you start and they can't stand such uncertainty. But that's extreme cases.
uaafanblog
6th June 2009 - 08:11 PM
Rob,
There's no disputing what you've said. However, the possibility that there is an afterlife is miniscule based on what we know about how mythologies come to be. In fact, I'd doubt there is a single piece of "evidence" of any kind that would be considered reliable in support of any of them. With that in mind the people who are in the "I don't know" category should really be in the "I seriously doubt it" category; shouldn't they? I think they aren't in that category because Science hasn't stepped forward and become the cultural and political force that it could easily become. I say easily because it is Science that already has a deep understanding of sociology. I guess what I'm getting at with this whole thread is that Science needs it's own version of
Edward Bernays.
He singlehandedly did more to influence the social fabric/culture than any other person in the 20th century. He had a deep almost innate understanding for what drives humans. Science knows everything he knew and ought to be utilizing those tools to gain adherents.
I suppose all this is in a way asking the question, "Should science kill god once and for all?"
RobDegraves
6th June 2009 - 08:43 PM
uaafanblog
With all due respect I think that your one statement is incorrect to a certain degree.
QUOTE
However, the possibility that there is an afterlife is miniscule based on what we know about how mythologies come to be.
Don't you think that this should be more correctly restated as...
-However, the possibility that our current models of an afterlife are correct is minuscule based on what we know about how mythologies come to be.-
Just because we are wrong about the model does not invalidate the idea that some other model might be correct. The point is that the subject cannot be decided at this point in our scientific development.
Again, this puts me in the "I don't know" category.
However....
This does not mean that people should feel free to tell me that their particular religious beliefs are correct just because I don't know the answer to those basic questions.
Even though I don't know, I am pretty sure that they don't either.
Maybe someday someone will come along with a brilliant explanation or model and maybe even some evidence for it. Then I will be thrilled. Until then...
I just don't know.
uaafanblog
6th June 2009 - 10:21 PM
Rob,
I don't know; I certainly acknowledge that a possibility exists. QM tells us that. It also tells us that the chances of an afterlife as conceived by pretty much any religion are about equal to an afterlife dressed as pirates in the eternal light of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And perhaps we're just parsing words here or it's a matter of perspective ... but "I seriously doubt it" seems more appropriate.
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