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RobDegraves
QUOTE
If you want to debate must come evidence from the Qur'an or the Sunnah


So... you want an argument based only on the Qur'an or the Sunnah?

Sunnah from the Hadith or the Sira?

Also... do you really think it will make sense to anyone else to argue based only on your version of the Holy Book?

Lastly... who gets to interpret the Qur'an for the purpose of this discussion?

In case you ask...

Yes... I have read it.
Matador
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 9 2009, 08:57 AM)

Lol

Lol

Lol


Are you stupid.....................................


you have blown your 'innocent' cover. wink.gif
orestis
I wont comment on your hypocrisy about blaming America for a war that Islam started or blaming America for killing innocent people when Islam kills Islam in markets almost each day.

But what about this?

QUOTE
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.


It was under the chapter of women. A woman who runs away from a husband who is beating her can be killed when she is found?



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.


It was under the chapter of women. A woman who runs away from a husband who is beating her can be killed when she is found?



I'm not here to defend a state nor anyone I'm here for Islam is not only


That is a masterpiece of stupidity. If Islam is not the people who believe it then what is it? Why are you here trying to convince "someone", "anyone" to believe it.
vkamath
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 8 2009, 08:01 AM)

((( Islam is equal between men and women in terms of reward and punishment can not find one better than one
Because they were all slaves of Allaah )))

Are men who involve in extra marital affairs also beheaded or flogged in equal numbers?
buttershug
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 8 2009, 02:28 AM)

The Quran is a Divine Miracle of Literature [Prophesy - Science - Warnings - Wisdom - Truths]...and it has been Preserved 100% In the Original Language - for over 1,400 years!

Says who?

You havn't demonstrated that yet?
What do you base that on?

A lot of people can write such a book and claim it's from God.

Actually a lot have.


It doesn't matter that it's in the original language.
In fact why would Allah have it written in a language that he then allows to change?

orestis
Methinks amed has stopped trying to recruit martyrs.

Maybe just now he is warping himself in Holy, Islamic C-4 and going to market to show the world how wonderful it is to be a Muslim.

Stupid fucks!

You have a problem with Gaza? Then learn a lesson from the Jews. Get your fat, rich, Saudi friends to buy politicians.

Oh, wait. They already did that. And they didn't give a damn about dead Palestinian children.
ahmd
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 8 2009, 11:18 PM)

So... you want an argument based only on the Qur'an or the Sunnah?



Also... do you really think it will make sense to anyone else to argue based only on your version of the Holy Book?



I understand what do you mean your reply. But that's not what I want.

Which I

To be neutral sources of information so that there is credence to the News

The other thing

Is that these countries do not apply the Islamic law, but apply man-made laws. Why then attributed to Islam,



In other words,

This is not the laws of the Quran or the Sunnah "Teachings of Muhammad peace be upon him "

Why, then, this injustice to Islam without the right !?


______________________________________________________________________

Why is this the answer?

( Clarification )

So do not say tomorrow someone else is in the State Doe Corp. (any state) for example, alcohol is permitted


This is not an argument

But alcohol is forbidden in Islam, may not be drinking alcohol and did not sell them or even help in reaching out

I hope that the idea is clear now !!!

QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 8 2009, 11:18 PM)
Sunnah from the Hadith or the Sira?


yes all

"Teachings of Muhammad peace be upon him "





QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 8 2009, 11:18 PM)
Lastly... who gets to interpret the Qur'an for the purpose of this discussion?
ahmd
QUOTE (orestis+Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM)
blaming America




I'm not blaming the one

(((I just move the truth as it is)))

For example,

The act of genocide of millions of Indians?

Who did this crime is America

U.S. Civil War

Who did this crime is America

Who drop two atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Who did this heinous crime is America

Who killed innocent people in Vietnam?

Who did this crime is America


Says

QUOTE (orestis+Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM)
The Muslims are who have started this war,


This is not true

On the contrary. America had started the war on Islam

America is supporting Israel in everything with arms and money and even logistical support. They also prevent the Security Council from 1947 to today to take one decision against Israel


Who killed the Muslims in Lebanon?

Who did this crime is America

Who killed the Muslims in Somalia?

Who did this crime is America


Who bombed factories medicine in the Sudan?

Who did this heinous crime is America

I hope that look back to history

it impartially

look . so you know America as it is

Without makeup

In other words,

Without a facelift of the media


You look at America as if it were a pure angel While it is in fact the earliest Satan

QUOTE (orestis+Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM)
Islam kills Islam in markets almost each day




This is not true

Who is doing this are agents of Iran and India and Israel,


QUOTE (orestis+Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM)
It was under the chapter of women A woman who runs away from a husband who is beating her can be killed when she is found?



Who told you that this verse in women's issues?



( This verse is in the hypocrites!

Eg

Fleeing from the war is not only that but also assisting the enemy )



To see the interpretation of the Koran

Here's the link

http://www.qtafsir.com/


QUOTE (orestis+Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM)
If Islam is not the people who believe it then what is it? Why are you here trying to convince "someone", "anyone" to believe it.




There is a big difference between the Islamic religion, and between the acts (some of the Muslims) so I'm not claiming that I do not have sins or sins. ( But Islam is Bria. But it is of myself ill )

Ask God to repent and to forgive me for all sins that God is Forgiving, Merciful

My Lord! Forgive me and my parents and him who entereth my house believing, and believing men and believing women, ........ (28)

Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the day when the account is cast. (41)

.............Amen

But if you said their actions from the teachings of Islam. Only then must be answered

For this I am here to defend the religion (Islamic law) only
ahmd
QUOTE (vkamath+Dec 9 2009, 01:50 PM)
Are men who involve in extra marital affairs also beheaded or flogged in equal numbers?


At a time when the rest of the world, from Greece and Rome to India and China, considered women as no better than children or even slaves, with no rights whatsoever, Islam acknowledged women's equality with men in a great many respects. The Quran states:

"And among His signs is this: that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest and peace of mind in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Certainly, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect." [30:21]

Prophet Muhammad said:

"The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manners and kindest to his wife." [Source: “Sunnan” of Abu Dawud]

Muslims believe that Adam and Eve were created from the same soul. Both were equally guilty of their sin and fall from grace, and Allah forgave both. Many women in Islam have had high status; consider the fact that the first person to convert to Islam was Khadijah, the wife of Muhammad, whom he both loved and respected. His favorite wife after Khadijah's death, Ayesha, became renowned as a scholar and one of the greatest sources of Hadith literature. Many of the female Companions accomplished great deeds and achieved fame, and throughout Islamic history there have been famous and influential scholars and jurists.



We might also mention that while many in the West criticize Islam with regard to the treatment of women, in fact a number of Muslim countries have had women rulers and presidents. To name a few: Turkey; Bangladesh and Pakistan.

With regard to education, both women and men have the same rights and obligations. This is clear in Prophet Muhammad's saying:

"Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every believer." [Ibn Majah]

This implies men and women.

A woman is to be treated as God has endowed her, with rights, such as to be treated as an individual, with the right to own and dispose of her own property and earnings, enter into contracts, even after marriage. She has the right to be educated and to work outside the home if she so chooses. She has the right to inherit from her father, mother, and husband. A very interesting point to note is that in Islam, unlike any other religion, a woman can be an imam, a leader of communal prayer, for a group of women.

A Muslim woman also has obligations. All the laws and regulations pertaining to prayer, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, doing good deeds, etc., apply to women, albeit with minor differences having mainly to do with female physiology.

Before marriage, a woman has the right to choose her husband. Islamic law is very strict regarding the necessity of having the woman's consent for marriage. The groom gives a marriage dowry to the bride for her own personal use. She keeps her own family name, rather than taking her husband's. As a wife, a woman has the right to be supported by her husband even if she is already rich. She also has the right to seek divorce and custody of young children. She does not return the dowry, except in a few unusual situations.

Despite the fact that in many places and times Muslim communities have not always adhered to all or even many of the foregoing in practice, the ideal has been there for 1,400 years, while virtually all other major civilizations did not begin to address these issues or change their negative attitudes until the 19th and 20th centuries, and there are still many contemporary civilizations which have yet to do so.
ahmd
QUOTE (buttershug+Dec 9 2009, 05:07 PM)

A lot of people can write such a book

We agreed I do not want 100 books OR 10 books, but I want only one book like the Qur'an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Only one condition is

that there in the book the following:

To be:Prophesy - Science - Warnings - Wisdom - Truths...and it has been Preserved 100% In the Original Language - for over 1,400 years

I'm waiting writers

OK ?
ahmd
Why the person told the truth as it is said that person is (al-Qaeda or terrorist) or Client???

Which you quoted is the truth

So why be afraid of the truth?

If you're planted thorns It will not reap the grapes.


Or, as the saying goes, the famous (do not collect grapes from thorns)

Then why is this war of words is either a new method in (GAGGED)

Where the human right to speak ?

Where the human right to freedom of opinion?


But if I thank the American, Then be honest person The civilized honest !!!!

After that, get angry if the person said in the United States does not have freedom of opinion and democracy, human rights
CorticalChaos
the purpose of life is whatever you choose it to be.
Goofus A Gallant
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 12 2009, 01:58 AM)
We agreed I do not want 100 books OR 10 books, but I want only one book like the Qur'an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Only one condition is

that there in the book the following:

To be:Prophesy - Science - Warnings - Wisdom - Truths...and it has been Preserved 100% In the Original Language - for over 1,400 years

I'm waiting writers

OK ?

Except for the 1,400 years, I think Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy fills the requirement quite nicely. wink.gif
buttershug
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 12 2009, 01:58 AM)
We agreed I do not want 100 books OR 10 books, but I want only one book like the Qur'an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Only one condition is

that there in the book the following:

To be:Prophesy - Science - Warnings - Wisdom - Truths...and it has been Preserved 100% In the Original Language - for over 1,400 years

I'm waiting writers

OK ?

But the language hasn't been preserved exactly.

And you are working backwards. You have chosen what you believe then make the conditions fit what you believe.

What does preserving the original words have to do with anything?
And all the stuff in the Koran was known.


One could look at Shakespeare and make a list based on his works and then use those conditions. And his work will meet the conditions that his work meets.

All it takes is one error in the Koran to disprove it.
And it says the Gospels are true. And that Christ was simply a prophet.

But you make excuses as to why that is not really a contradiction. It's not up to Islam to say what Christians believed at the time. Christians at the time believed that Christ was the Son of God. The Koran gets that historical fact wrong.

Also there are many varieties of Islam but muslims say that there is only one Islam.
Are the Taliban true believers or not?
orestis
QUOTE
Islam kills Islam in markets almost each day




This is not true

Who is doing this are agents of Iran and India and Israel,


Of course. Iran is not Muslim.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Islam kills Islam in markets almost each day




This is not true

Who is doing this are agents of Iran and India and Israel,


Of course. Iran is not Muslim.

Who drop two atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?


Who did the Massacre of Nanking?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

QUOTE
QUOTE (orestis @ Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM)
The Muslims are who have started this war,


This is not true

On the contrary. America had started the war on Islam


Idiot. How short is your memory.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
QUOTE (orestis @ Dec 9 2009, 01:29 PM)
The Muslims are who have started this war,


This is not true

On the contrary. America had started the war on Islam


Idiot. How short is your memory.

Who killed innocent people in Vietnam?


Punk *** little mother fucker. You dismiss what the Cong did in small villages before America got there. Just like you dismiss what the Japanese did on the way to Nanking.

Well fed, air-conditioned, Philippine-raping cowered. Do you do the maid or her son?
RobDegraves
ahmd


Do you know what hypocrisy is?

It is what you do when you make statements like these...

QUOTE
Is that these countries do not apply the Islamic law, but apply man-made laws. Why then attributed to Islam,


Then ....

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Is that these countries do not apply the Islamic law, but apply man-made laws. Why then attributed to Islam,


Then ....

The act of genocide of millions of Indians?

Who did this crime is America



So... Islam is not responsible for the terrible things that Muslims have done in Allah's name... but America is responsible for the things done centuries ago?


Hypocrisy


Now.. for a more scholarly approach...


QUOTE
We agreed I do not want 100 books OR 10 books, but I want only one book like the Qur'an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Only one condition is

that there in the book the following:

To be:Prophesy - Science - Warnings - Wisdom - Truths...and it has been Preserved 100% In the Original Language - for over 1,400 years



1. Judaism ... much older than 1400 years. Preserved in the original language...has prophecy etc.

2. Hinduism... much older than 1400 years again. Many many books in the original language.. has prophecy.. etc.

3. Shinto... codified in the Kojiki around the 8th century. Obviously preserved in the original language.. Japanese.


Shall I go on?

Now... let's look at your claims about the Qur'an.

Science

We have already seen that the science in the Qur'an is no greater than the science that was available at the time. I made that exact point, which you have yet to invalidate... assuming you can.

Prophecy

Give me one example of a clear cut prophecy that has come true provably after the prophecy was written down. I want a clear prophecy... not your cloud gazing, vague garbage.

Warnings

Every holy book has warnings.

Wisdom and truths.

I have read the Qur'an. I have to say that I was not overwhelmed by it's wisdom or truths.

How about showing us what makes this wisdom so much better than the normative platitudes we always get from religion.


Give it a shot.... should be amusing at least.



Edited to add....


Ohhh... I had to add this little bit of research


Considering the claim that Islam is the world's fastest growing religion...


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We agreed I do not want 100 books OR 10 books, but I want only one book like the Qur'an !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Only one condition is

that there in the book the following:

To be:Prophesy - Science - Warnings - Wisdom - Truths...and it has been Preserved 100% In the Original Language - for over 1,400 years



1. Judaism ... much older than 1400 years. Preserved in the original language...has prophecy etc.

2. Hinduism... much older than 1400 years again. Many many books in the original language.. has prophecy.. etc.

3. Shinto... codified in the Kojiki around the 8th century. Obviously preserved in the original language.. Japanese.


Shall I go on?

Now... let's look at your claims about the Qur'an.

Science

We have already seen that the science in the Qur'an is no greater than the science that was available at the time. I made that exact point, which you have yet to invalidate... assuming you can.

Prophecy

Give me one example of a clear cut prophecy that has come true provably after the prophecy was written down. I want a clear prophecy... not your cloud gazing, vague garbage.

Warnings

Every holy book has warnings.

Wisdom and truths.

I have read the Qur'an. I have to say that I was not overwhelmed by it's wisdom or truths.

How about showing us what makes this wisdom so much better than the normative platitudes we always get from religion.


Give it a shot.... should be amusing at least.



Edited to add....


Ohhh... I had to add this little bit of research


Considering the claim that Islam is the world's fastest growing religion...


According to the Encyclopedia Britannica Year in Review 1995[26] and 2002[27] the following was the change in religions that are widely recognized (sorted by % growth):
Organized Religion  % growth
over 7 years  # people added
over 7 years
Parsees/Zoroastrian  1300%  2,470,000
Sikhs  24%  4,660,000
Bahá'ís  21%  1,302,000
Buddhists  12%  40,120,000
Muslims  12%  126,769,000
Hindus  6%  47,583,000
Christians  6%  110,952,000
Jews  3%  418,000
World Total  64%  2,415,317,000



And to top it all...


QUOTE
The American Religious Identification Survey gives Wicca an average annual growth of 143% / 11,454 for the period 1990 to 2001 (8,000→134,000 - U.S. data / similar for Canada & Australia).



143% sure beats the Muslim 12% doesn't it?

biggrin.gif

Bivalves
Crime against Humanity
buttershug
QUOTE (orestis+Dec 12 2009, 04:04 AM)

Of course. Iran is not Muslim.


There is an extreme divergence between Iranians and their government.
The ones I word with are well educated, intelligent and very secular.
And put down their president. A couple of them said that if they went back home during the unrest they would be locked up for a copule of months while the government asked why they had not been home in a long time but then came home at that time.
OTOH over the year four women went there and back again.

And over the last few years I've probably been wished Merry Christmas by Iranians more than anyone else.
Bivalves
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 6 2009, 01:47 AM)
we will talk about Sex in America


Sure, but these figures absolutely blanch into trifling insignificance when compared to the results of a study showing that 20% of saudi camels have syphlis, which can only be transmitted from man-on-camel sex. laugh.gif

Stop practising suicide bombing on your head and perhaps one day you might realize how profoundly ignorant you actually are.

smile.gif
vkamath
ahmd,

Do you think they have represented heaven correctly here?

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/internation...ide-bombers-884
ahmd
QUOTE (CorticalChaos+Dec 12 2009, 02:17 AM)
the purpose of life is whatever you choose it to be.

I'm not only

But all Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Shinto and atheists. In short, all the people you ask?.

What is the purpose of life?

Or

Why am I here?

Why did I come to life?

After the death of where to go?

And

how to create the universe out of nothing?

And

Who is the Creator of the universe from scratch?

Who is the Creator who created us from scratch?

And

Do Created us to do something specific?

And

Do all the work good or for evil go without an account?

Then, why do good? If there is no difference that worked good or evil!!!
ahmd
QUOTE (buttershug+Dec 12 2009, 02:59 AM)
But the language hasn't been preserved exactly.


Praise be to Allaah.
Quran is not a book and that it is actually alive today in the hearts of over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims around the world .This is a real miracle. There is no other book like it .No book can compare to it and no other major religion today has their original preserved in the original language by so many followers of the religion


"Did you know?

Over NINE MILLION Muslims Memorized the Entire Quran. 9,000,000 + Muslims living today have memorized the entire Quran in the original Arabic language "But surprisingly over 75% of all Muslims are not Arab. In fact, the largest number of Muslims today are in Indonesia."


1 – The proof that the copies of the Holy Qur’aan that we have before us is not just one or two pieces of evidence, rather it is proven by a vast amount of evidence that no fair-minded person can study without becoming convinced that it is exactly as Allaah revealed it to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

2 – There have been generations coming one after another, reciting the Book of Allaah and studying it, memorizing it and writing it down. They have not omitted a single letter, and no one can change even the vowel point of a single letter. Writing is just one means of preserving it; basically it is preserved in their hearts.

3 – The Qur’aan has not come down to us on its own, such that the so-called alterations could be made. Rather the interpretation of its verses, the meanings of its words, the reasons for its revelation, the grammar of its words and the commentary on its rulings have all been transmitted. When such care has been given to this Book, how could sinful hands find a way to distort even one letter of it, or add a word, or take away a verse?

4 – The Qur’aan speaks of matters of the unseen, in the future, which Allaah revealed to His Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to show him that they came from Allaah. If a human being wants to write a book, he can describe an event or express a point of view, but if any human being were to speak about matters of the unseen, in this field he can only base that on speculation and lies. But the Qur’aan told of the defeat of the Romans by the Persians, at the time when there was no means of communication to inform the Arabs of this event. The same verses also foretold that they (the Persians) would be defeated after a certain number of years. If what the Qur’aan said was not accurate, then the kaafirs would have had a great opportunity to criticize the Qur’aan.

5 – If you read any verse of the Qur’aan, then you go to America or Asia or the jungles of Africa, or to the deserts of Arabia or any place where there are Muslims, you will find that all of them have the exact same verse, memorized by heart or in their books; not a single letter of it will have been altered.

We are happy to conclude our answer with this true story that happened in Baghdad during the ‘Abbasid era, when a Jew wanted to find out how true are the books attributed by their followers to God, namely the Torah among the Jews, the Gospel among the Christians and the Qur’aan among the Muslims.

He went to the Torah and added and took away a few minor things that were not very obvious, then he gave it to a scribe from among the Jews and asked him to make copies of it. It did not take long before these copies were placed in the synagogues of the Jews and were in circulation among their major scholars.

Then he went to the Gospel and added and took away a few things as he had done with the Torah, and he gave it to their scribes and asked them to make copies of it. It was not long before it was being read in their churches and was in circulation among their scholars.

Then he went to the Qur’aan and added and took away a few things as he had done with the Torah and the Gospel. Then he gave it to a Muslim scribe to make copies of it.

When he went back to get his copy, the scribe threw it in his face and told him that this was not the Qur’aan of the Muslims!

From this experiment the man came to know that the Qur’aan is the true Book of Allaah and that all other books were the works of human beings.

If the scribes of the Muslims could tell that this copy had been tampered with, then how could it go into circulation among the Muslim scholars undetected?

If wants to repeat this ancient experiment nowadays, all she has to do is to do the same as that Jewish man did, who later became Muslim; she can add and take away things from these three books and see what happens as a result.

But we do not tell her to show her copy of the Qur’aan to a scribe, rather we tell her to show it to Muslim children, and they will tell her where the mistakes are in her copy!



QUOTE (buttershug+Dec 12 2009, 02:59 AM)
What does preserving the original words have to do with anything?





Yes means the thing a lot. If we disagree in the translation will come back to the original so we know who is right.

There are no different versions of the Quran in the Arabic language, only different translations and of course, none of these would be considered to hold the value and authenticity of the original Arabic Recitation.


For example

Why does the Torah distorted the gospel?

((( Because of the absence of the original book )))




QUOTE (buttershug+Dec 12 2009, 02:59 AM)
One could look at Shakespeare and make a list based on his works and then use those conditions. And his work will meet the conditions that his work meets




Yes this is true.

But the QURAN is present from more than 1400 years. And run down by all the people. Muslim and non-Muslim. Could not anyone come Bshi similar to it


((( This is the biggest proof that this Word of Allah )))

Is not this the biggest proof.?



QUOTE (buttershug+Dec 12 2009, 02:59 AM)
And it says the Gospels are true.



Perhaps you made a mistake. I have not sacked the Gospels is true. But I said that the Gospels is from God

For more on the subject see the following link :

Bible Compared to Quran

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp



QUOTE (buttershug+Dec 12 2009, 02:59 AM)
Also there are many varieties of Islam but muslims say that there is only one Islam Are the Taliban true believers or not?





There is only Islam and the only one

Islam Which was by the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


You did not meet the request of

I will request another time

You said



QUOTE (buttershug+Dec 12 2009, 02:59 AM)
A lot of people can write such a book




I asked you

QUOTE (ahmd+)
I just want a single book like the Qur'an




Now you have three options


1 - to meet demand.

2 - apologize and say I can not.(((And then everybody will know that your word incorrectly, but is just lies)))

3 - to withdraw from the dialogue. Because the dialogue does not work when lying. I do not have time to respond to the lies


((( Muslim dialogue in order to get to the truth )))

((( And not dialogue for dialogue )))
ahmd

RobDegraves

You do not understand

I said that the (Some Muslims ) are doing errors. But do not attribute them to Islam. Even if he did and attributed to Islam. will find scientists from the reply to him and shows that Islam does not bear this wrong


But what is attributed to America.

America did not reject this, but on the contrary

America did not say what happened to kill Indians or the Japanese people killed or kill the Vietnamese people or killing blacks in America
Or killing of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq is bad, or it should not happen. Or at least offer an apology to the Indians, or to the Japanese people or to blacks in America or to the Vietnamese people or to the Muslims in Afghanistan or Iraq.

((( America did not provide even a simple apology to the girl who was raped to death by American soldiers (Abeer al-Janabi) )))


http://www.awda-dawa.com/sounds/httpwww.al...napress.com.jpg

(But on the contrary, says that what happened is something very natural)

Why apologize?

Or

Why the outrage?


(((All those who were killed just wild animals must die. And do not have the right to life)))


Do you understand now

Do you want proof?


See response to member

(Orestis)

He is a model of this thought (obscurantist reactionary fossil brutal) and even alien to the human world. Even in the world of animals for which there is an instance

((( This is evil incarnate )))

See response (orestis). Above directly




__________________________________________

QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
for a more scholarly approach



Oh ... for a more ignorance approach


QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
Judaism ...much older than 1400 years.Preserved in the original language...has prophecy etc.




QUOTE
The majority of modern scholars believe that the Torah is the product of many hands, stretching over many centuries



More information about the Torah

See this link

http://islamtomorrow.com/bible/Who_Wrote_Bible_Friedman.asp





QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The majority of modern scholars believe that the Torah is the product of many hands, stretching over many centuries



More information about the Torah

See this link

http://islamtomorrow.com/bible/Who_Wrote_Bible_Friedman.asp





2. Hinduism... much older than 1400 years again. Many many books in the original language.. has prophecy.. etc.


QUOTE


QUOTE
Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder.



Is this religion? What about the books?



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder.



Is this religion? What about the books?



Hinduism's vast body of scriptures

Other major scriptures include the Purāṇas and the epics Mahābhārata and Rāmāyaṇa .The Bhagavad Gītā , a treatise from the Mahābhārata , spoken by Krishna , is sometimes called a summary of the spiritual teachings of the Vedas



QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
3. Shinto... codified in the Kojiki around the 8th century. Obviously preserved in the original language.. Japanese.



( And Shinto is not better off !!!)


What are these myths?



Do you compare these myths with the Quran?


Do you crazy or stupid?

The Islamic religion did not contain

any superstitions, any irrational rules, or any unintelligible subjects.

The Islamic religion was a logical one,



QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
Shall I go on?

Now... let's look at your claims about the Qur'an.

Science




l-Nasiyah (front of the head)


http://www.55a.net/firas/en1/images/stories/a023_01.jpg

The holy Qur’an describes the front of the head being lying and sinful. Allah (SWT)

says: (a lying sinful nasiyah (front of the head).) (96: 16)

Since the front of the head does not speak, how can it be described as being lying? It does not commit sins. How is it then said to be sinful?

Professor Muhammad Yusuf Sukkar dispelled my perplexity while he was talking to me about the function of the brain.

He said: “The function of the portion of the brain that lies in the font of the human head is to control the human behavior.”

I said: “I have found it.”

He said: “what have you found?”

I said: “The interpretation of the saying of Allah (SWT): a lying sinful nasiyah.”

He said: “Let me consult my books and references.”

After having done so, he, confirming what he had said, added: “When a person intends to tell a lie, the decision is made in the frontal lobe of the brain, which is the front of the head. If he wants to commit a sin, the decision is made there, too.”

Then I discussed the subject with a number of specialized scholars, among whom was Keith L. Moore, who stated that the front of the head is responsible for judging and for directing human behavior. The working organs of the body (e.g. the limbs) are but tools to carry out the decision made in the front of the head.

The Anatomical structure of the upper region of the forehead shows that it consists of one of the bones of the skull, called the fronted bone, which protects one of the lobes of the brain called the frontal lobe, which contains several neural centers in various locations and with various functions.

The prefrontal cortex constitutes the bulk of the frontal lobe of the brain, and its function is involved in the making of one’s personality. It is also considered as a superior center among the centers of concentration, thinking and memory. It plays a significant role in the person’s emotion and it is somehow concerned with initiative and discrimination.

The cortex is situated directly behind the forehead; it is hidden deep in the front of the head. Thus the prefrontal cortex directs some of the human behavior that reflects one’s personality, with respect to being truthful, lying, right, wrong…etc. It also distinguishes between these virtues and vices and urges one to take the initiative whether with good or evil intent.

In a joint research on the scientific miracle of nasiyah by Keith L. Moore and me, presented in an international conference held in Cairo in 1980, Keith L. Moore did not talk about the function of the frontal lobe of the human brain only, but talked about the function of the nasiyah in the brains of various animals. Demonstrating pictures of the fronted lobes of a number of animals, he said: “The comparative anatomical study of human and animal brains shows that the nasiyah has the same function: It is the center of the control and guidance in both man and animals that have brains.

His saying drew my attention to the saying of Allah (SWT): (There is not a moving animal but He has the grasp of its nasiyah. Verily, my Lord is on a straight Path.) (XI:56)

I also called to mind some of the traditions of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), such as: “O Allah! I am your servant and the son of your servant and the son of your bondmaid, my nasiyah (front of the head) is in Your Hands…” and: “ I seek refuge with you from the evil of everything whose nasiyah is in Your Grasp.” and: “Horses have goodness embedded in their nasiyahs, till the Day of Resurrection.”

From the meanings of these texts we can conclude that the nasiyah is the center of control and guidance of both human and animal behavior.

The linguistic meaning of the Verse and the sayings of the commentators

Allah (SWT) says: (Let him beware! If he does not stop, We will take him by the nasiyah (front of the head), a lying, sinful nasiyah!) (96:15-16)

Al-Nasiyah: the front of the head.

The commentators’ sayings:

Most commentators have interpreted this Verse metaphorically, saying that describing the nasiyah being lying and sinful is not to be taken literally; the description is attributed to the owner of the nasiyah and not to the nasiyah itself. Other commentators such as Al-Hafiz ibn Kathir left the Verse without comments.

From the sayings of the commentators (May Allah bestow His Mercy on them) we understand that they did not know that the nasiyah is the center of deciding to tell a lie or commit a sin; therefore, they interpreted the Verse metaphorically, while the text literally describes the nasiyah being lying and sinful. They attributed the description to the owner of the nasiyah although the grammatical structure of the utterance does not permit that; otherwise, the structure would have been the genitive construction which is completely different from the adjectival construction.

Other commentators did not comment on the Verse sparing themselves the involvement in something beyond their knowledge and the knowledge of their age.

The Aspects of the Scientific Miracle

Professor Keith L. Moore, illustrating this Scientific Miracle, says: “The information we now know about the function of the brain, was not mentioned throughout history, nor do we find anything about it in the medical books. Should we survey all the medical literature during the time of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and several centuries thereafter, we would find no mention of the function of the frontal lobe (nasiyah), or an explanation of it or a statement about it except in this Book (the Holy Qur’an), which indicates that such information is of the Knowledge of Allah, the Almighty, Who knows everything, and that Muhammad is Allah’s Messenger.

The first time the function of the frontal lobe was known was in 1842, when a railway worker in America was hit with a bar that pierced his forehead. That affected his behavior leaving the other functions of his body intact. Only then doctors came to know the function of the frontal lobe of the brain and its bearing on human behavior.

Doctors, up to then, had thought that this portion of the human brain is a mute region with no function. Who, then, informed Muhammad (Peace be upon him) that this portion of the brain (nasiyah) is the center of control and guidance in both people and animals and that it is the source of telling lies and committing sins?

Prominent commentators had to interpret the explicit text metaphorically because they did not know this secret, in order to safeguard the Qur’an from being accused of lying by people who were ignorant of this fact throughout the past centuries. The fact that the nasiyah is the center of control and guidance in both men and animals is clearly mentioned in Allah’s Book and the Sunnah of his Messenger (Peace be upon him).

Who, then, told Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in particular, of this secret and this fact?

It is the Divine Knowledge that no falsehood can approach from before or behind it. It is a witness from Allah that the Qur’an is from Him and was revealed with His Knowledge.

_____________________________________________________


Burns and pain sensation

http://www.55a.net/firas/en1/images/stories/84937ttttt.jpg

Allah (Glory is to him) says:

"Those who reject our signs, we shall soon cast in to the fire, as often as their skins are roasted through, we shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty for Allah is Exalted in power, wise" Al- Nesa'a chapter, verse:56

The above verse illustrates why Allah changes the unbelievers burnt skin by another to feel the most torment during their existence in the hell… so what is the secrete of this.

The microscopical anatomy illustrates to us that the skin is an organ rich with the nerve fibers that receive & transform all types of sensation from the external surrounding & either by free nerve ending & all these ends exist in all skin levels: epidermis (outer skin), dermis, the hypodermis tissues & it transforms the pain sensation, heat, pressure, coldness & touch sensation & there are nerve endings which have secretory function & regulate the skin glands blood vessels whether is more sensory by the receptors of pressure but it is less sensory by pain, heat & touch receptors with a big grade & thus when any person is injected by syringe so he feels maximum pain when it penetrates the skin & when it passed to the other tissues the pain sensation decreases.

And the skin when exposed to burn it leads to a great pain sensation because the fire warn the pain receptors which is the free nerve ending & also it warns the thermoreptors & which is corpuscles that is existed in the dermis & hypodermis which is called Ruffini Corpuscles & burning pain is maximum when the burn reaches the hypodermis tissue & called the third degree burn & if the burn extends to the under skin tissue the pain will decrease because these tissues are less sensitive for pain as it mentioned before & thus the kor'anic verse refers to the organ which is richest with the pain receptors is the skin as the burns are the most warning pain .

Allah (glory is to him) says: "Those who reject our signs we shall soon cast in to the fire, as often as their skins are roasted through, we shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty for Allah is Exalted in power, wise"
Al- Nesa'a chapter, verse:56

Allah (Glory is to him) says:"(Here is) a parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wise, a joy to those who drink, and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and grace from their Lord. (can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell forever in the fire and be given , to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)"
Mohammad chapter verse no:15

(cutting their intestines): Here Allah didn't say exchange it but said cut it because the intestine is free of the sensory nerve cells, so if we put a scope inside the digestive system the human won't feel any pain, only the pharynx pain during the entry of the scope & we take a part & the patient doesn't feel any pain so when the patient will feel the pain?

The patient feels the pain when he has a perforation in his intestines as the perforating ulcer so Allah said (cut) & we must be attentive to this accurate fluent expression as Allah said the expression (exchange) with skin and said the expression (cut) with intestines because the intestines are free of sensation and also free of nerve cells which is found in the peritoneal membrane, so when a perforation happens in the intestines a serve pain happens and thus the patient who is injured by a perforation in the digestive system will be suffering from a serve pain and his stomach becomes in a state called Board like Rigidity as board that is an emergency surgical case and an operation must be done to the patient immediately because the intestinal contents exit to the peritoneum which has the nerve ending and the sensation so he feels by a great pain so his stomach strained.

And there is another hint which relates to this subject that the human when he sometimes exposes to a disturbing view or pain he lost his conscious as a mean of defense for himself, that Allah (the Great & Almighty ) said about the unbelievers until he torments them :"But those who reject (Allah), for them will be the fire of Hell : no term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its penalty be lightened for them. Thus do we reward every ungrateful one! "

So they will be in a state they will neither be alive nor dead.

http://www.55a.net/firas/en1/images/stories/a063_02.jpg

__________________________________________________


References :
- "With the Medicine in the Holy Qur'an"
Written by: Dr. Abd-Alhameed Diab & Dr. Ahmad Karkoz
- "The Science Qur'an constitution- Damascus"
- The lecture of: Dr. Mohammad Jameel Al-Hebal on Al-jazeera T.V.,
the Religion &the life program. The episode's date: 12/2/1422 A.H.-6/5/2001 A.D


Comments by Top Scientists Science:

http://scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php

more See this link


http://scienceislam.com/quran_miracles.php


QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
Prophecy

Give me one example of a clear cut prophecy that has come true provably after the prophecy was written down


The Qur’aan speaks of matters of the unseen, in the future, which Allaah revealed to His Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to show him that they came from Allaah. If a human being wants to write a book, he can describe an event or express a point of view, but if any human being were to speak about matters of the unseen, in this field he can only base that on speculation and lies. But the Qur’aan told of the defeat of the Romans by the Persians, at the time when there was no means of communication to inform the Arabs of this event. The same verses also foretold that they (the Persians) would be defeated after a certain number of years. If what the Qur’aan said was not accurate, then the kaafirs would have had a great opportunity to criticize the Qur’aan.

___________________________________________

vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings



Islam is the last religion to be sent to the world , every religion had proofs that authenticated its Divine source . God foreordained that Islam would be the last message to the world ,
so it must comprise many miracles that could be categorized under six categories , among them in this age , being the age of science , what is termed as the scientific miracles which science has recently proved them amazingly . let alone the scientific miracle , as we are going to talk about the unseen matters news . Prophet Mohummed had depicted and given prophecies concerning our generation and the many generation to come . In fact , these prophecies which can't be easily enumerated , have come true .

As to the miracle of the unseen news , prophet Mohummed gave a large number of them ; some of them happened during his life , others directly after his death . Every age witnessed the fulfilment some of these . The large portion of these prophecies go to our age . Insha Allah , we will tackle these in the coming studies.

Some of these prophecies , as prophet Mohummed determined , are portents of the of the doomsday . we ,now , are approaching that day according to the Devine calculation .

The miracle of the unseen tackled that the different phases of life , these tackled the social life , economic life , techmological life , political strifes and wars . Though ther are fearful , they prove the true phrophethood of prophet Mohummed . What we are giving here are just two portents that reflect the social and economic life .The Bedouins , in the life of prophet Mohummed , used to lead a very simple life . They used to live in very simple houses out of mud and palm leaves . The discovery of oil made a revolution in every thing in the life of the bedouin . Contraray to the life they used to lead , they ,now , live in very tall structures but even they compete in building very high structures

http://www.55a.net/firas/photo/dubai_cci_r...resize23714.jpg

a picture of a tall building in the arabia

Here are two Hadith ( traditional sayings of prophet mohummed ) that talk about two prophecies that have come true .

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said to his companions ( through a long conversation about the signs of the last hour) ask me but the companions of the prophet embarrassed to ask him. Then there appeared before us a man and sat with the Apostle (peace be upon him) He knelt before him placed his palms on his thighs and said: Muhammad, inform me about al-Islam. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Al-Islam implies that you testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and you establish prayer, pay Zakat, observe the fast of Ramadan. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (the inquirer) said: Inform me about Iman (faith). He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (the inquirer) again said: Inform me about al-Ihsan (performance of good deeds). He (the Holy Prophet) said: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, for though you don't see Him, He, verily, sees you. He (the enquirer) again said: Inform me about the hour (of the Doom). He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: One who is asked knows no more than the one who is inquiring (about it). He (the inquirer) said: Tell me some of its indications. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and master, that you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings .

And the prophit said that five of the unseen things no one know them but Allah the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Lokman 34. And it has been narrated in the book of kenz el ommal ( the traesury of the workers ) compiled by Elmottaky El hendy that: Abu Hurayra said that the prophit ( peace be upon him ) said that : ( of the hour (of the doom) indications that you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings ) column 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 047. -----------------------------------------


http://www.55a.net/firas/photo/52604p25.jpg
a picture of a tall building in the arabia

Narated By Abu Huraira : One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents



http://www.55a.net/firas/photo/02803p45.jpg

a picture of a tall building in the arabia

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.

2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour..." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.







QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
Warnings




Allah,said

Al-Baqara

O mankind! worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil). (21) Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better). (22) And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (23) And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones. (24) And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide. (25)



QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
Wisdom and truths.



Allah,said

Al-Anaam

Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath forbidden to you: that ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury - We provide for you and for them - and that ye draw not nigh to lewd things whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern. (151) And approach not the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better, till he reach maturity. Give full measure and full weight, in justice. We task not any soul beyond its scope. And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. This He commandeth you that haply ye may remember. (152) And (He commandeth you, saying): This is My straight path, so follow it. Follow not other ways, lest ye be parted from His way. This hath He ordained for you, that ye may ward off (evil). (153)


Allah,said

Al-Isra

Set not up with Allah any other god (O man) lest thou sit down reproved, forsaken. (22) Thy Lord hath decreed, that ye worship none save Him, and (that ye show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age with thee, say not "Fie" unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word. (23) And lower unto them the wing of submission through mercy, and say: My Lord! Have mercy on them both as they did care for me when I was little. (24) Your Lord is best aware of what is in your minds. If ye are righteous, then lo! He was ever Forgiving unto those who turn (unto Him). (25) Give the kinsman his due, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and squander not (thy wealth) in wantonness. (26) Lo! the squanderers were ever brothers of the devils, and the devil was ever an ingrate to his Lord. (27) But if thou turn away from them, seeking mercy from thy Lord, for which thou hopest, then speak unto them a reasonable word. (28) And let not thy hand be chained to thy neck nor open it with a complete opening, lest thou sit down rebuked, denuded. (29) Lo! thy Lord enlargeth the provision for whom He will, and straiteneth (it for whom He will). Lo, He was ever Knower, Seer of His slaves. (30) Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, We shall provide for them and for you. Lo! the slaying of them is great sin. (31) And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way. (32) And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped. (33) Come not near the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength; and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked. (34) Fill the measure when ye measure, and weigh with a right balance; that is meet, and better in the end. (35) (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked. (36) And walk not in the earth exultant. Lo! thou canst not rend the earth, nor canst thou stretch to the height of the hills. (37) The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord. (38) This is (part) of that wisdom wherewith thy Lord hath inspired thee (O Muhammad). And set not up with Allah any other god, lest thou be cast into hell, reproved, abandoned. (39)



((( Opinions of Famous Non-Muslims )))



Speaking about the Quran, Goethe says, "It soon attracts, astounds, and in the end enforces our reverence... Its style, in accordance with its contents and aim is stern, grand - ever and always, truly sublime -
So, this book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence."

[Goethe - quoted in T. P. Huges "Dictionary of Islam", p. 526]




"The Koran (Quran) admittedly occupies an important position among the great religious books of the world. Though it is the youngest of the epoch making works belonging to this class of literature, it yields to hardly any in the wonderful effect which it has produced on large masses of men. It has created an all but new phase of human thought and a fresh type of character. It first transformed a number of heterogeneous desert tribes of the Arabian Peninsula into a nation of heroes, and then proceeded to create the vast politico-religious organizations of Muslims world wide which are one of the great forces with which Europe and the East have to reckon with today."

[G. Maragliouth in his Introduction to J. M. Rodwells - 'The Koran", New York - 'Everyman's Library, 1977, p VI]




"A work, then, which calls forth so powerful and seemingly incompatible emotions even in the distant reader - distant as to time, and still more so as mental development - a work which not only conquers the repugnance which he may begin its perusal, but changes this adverse feeling into astonishment and admiration, such a work must be a wonderful production...
indeed and a problem of the highest interest to every thoughtful observer of the destinies of mankind."

[Dr Steingass quoted in T. P. Hughes - "Dictionary of Islam", pp 256-257]




"It is impossible that Muhammad (peace be upon him) authored the Quran. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?

How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, an all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"

[Dr. Maurice Bucaille - author of "The Bible, the Quran and Science" 1978, p. 125]




"Here, therefore, its merits as a literary production should perhaps not be measured by some preconceived maxims of subjective and aesthetic taste, but by the effects which it produced in Muhammad's contemporaries and fellow countrymen.

If it spoke so powerfully and convincingly to the hearts of his hearers as to weld hitherto centrifugal and antagonistic elements into one compact and well organized body, animated by ideas far beyond those which had until now ruled the Arabian mind, then its eloquence was perfect, simply because it created a civilized nation out of savage tribes, and shot a fresh woof into the old warp of history"

[Dr. Steingass, quoted in Hughes' Dictionary of Islam p. 528]




"In making the present attempt to improve on the performance of my predecessors, and to produce something which might be accepted as echoing however faintly the sublime rhetoric of the Arabic Koran, I have been at pain to study the intricate and richly varied rhythms which - apart from the message itself - constitute the Koran's undeniable claim to rank amongst the greatest literary masterpieces of mankind..
This very characteristic feature - 'that inimitable symphony', as the believing Pickthall described his Holy Book, 'the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy' has been almost totally ignored by previous translators; it is therefore not surprising that what they have wrought sounds dull and flat indeed in comparison with the splendidly decorated original.."

[Arthur J. Arberry - "The Koran Interpreted", London: Oxford University Press . 1964, p. x.]




"A totally objective examination of it [the Quran] in the light of modern knowledge leads us to recognize the agreement between the two, as has been already noted on repeated occasions. It makes us deem it quite unthinkable for a man of Muhammad's time to have been the author of such statements, on account of the state of knowledge in his day.
Such considerations are part of what gives the Qur'anic Revelation its unique place, and forces the impartial scientist to admit his inability to provide and explanation which calls solely upon materialistic reasoning."

[Dr. Maurice Bucaille in his book: "The Bible, The Quran and Science" 1981, p. 18]





http://www.allahsquran.com/




QUOTE (RobDegraves+Dec 12 2009, 06:18 AM)
Considering the claim that Islam is the world's fastest growing religion...


Islam fastest growing religion

Islam

Growth rate*: 1.84 percent

See ( The List: The World's Fastest-Growing Religions )

ahmd
QUOTE
What are the attributes of the correct religion?


Praise be to Allaah.

Every member of a faith tradition believes that his community is following the truth. Every follower of a religion believes that his religion is the best religion and the straightest way. Whenever you ask the followers of deviant religions or the followers of man-made traditions about the evidence for their beliefs, they tell you that they found their fathers doing this so they are following in their footsteps, then they tell you stories and reports that have no sound basis and whose texts are not free of faults and discepancies. They rely on inherited books of which it is not known who wrote or said them, or in which language they were originally written, or in which land they originated; rather they are a mixture that has been gathered and written in a book that is venerated, then they were passed down from generation to generation with no proper scientific examination of the source of the text or of the text itself.

These unknown books and stories and blind imitation do not provide valid proof with regard to religions and beliefs. Are all these deviant religions and human traditions true or false?

It is impossible that they could all be true, because the truth is one; there are not many “truths”. And it is impossible that all these deviant religions and human traditions could have come from Allaah and all be true. If they are many, and the truth is one, then which of them is the truth? So there have to be guidelines by which we may recognize the true religion and distinguish it from false religions. If we find that these guidelines apply to a religion then we will know that it is the truth; if these guidelines or one of them is absent from a religion then we will know that it is false.
The guidelines by which we distinguish the true religion from false religions

1 – The religion should have come from Allaah, revealed through one of the angels to one of His Messengers, to convey it to His slaves, because the true religion is the religion of Allaah, and Allaah is the One Who will judge mankind and bring them to account on the Day of Resurrection according to the religion which He revealed to them. Allaah says:

“Verily, We have sent the Revelation to you (O Muhammad) as We sent the Revelation to Nooh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) sent the Revelation to Ibraaheem (Abraham), Ismaa’eel (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Ya’qoob (Jacob), and Al‑Asbaat [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya’qoob (Jacob)], ‘Eesa (Jesus), Ayyoob (Job), Yoonus (Jonah), Haaroon (Aaron), and Sulaymaan (Solomon); and to Dawood (David) We gave the Zaboor (Psalms)”

[al-Nisa’ 4:163]

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]

Based on this, then any religion which is introduced by some person who attributes it to himself and not to Allaah is undoubtedly a false religion.

2 – It should call for the worship of Allaah alone, and forbid shirk (polytheism or the worship of anything other than Allaah). It should also forbid the means that lead to that, because promoting Tawheed (belief in the oneness of Allaah) is the basis of the call of all the Prophets and Messengers. Every Prophet said to his people:

“Worship Allaah! You have no other Ilaah (God) but Him”

[al-A’raaf 7:73 – interpretation of the meaning]

Based on this, any religion that includes shirk and joins others in worship with Him, such as a Prophet, angel or wali (“saint”) is a false religion, even if its followers attribute it to one of the Prophets.

3 – It should be in accordance with the principles advocated by the Messengers, such as the worship of Allaah alone, calling people to His path, and forbidding shirk, disobedience to parents, unlawful killing and immoral deeds, both hidden and open. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]

“Say (O Muhammad): Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with Him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty — We provide sustenance for you and for them. Come not near to Al-Fawaahish (shameful sins and illegal sexual intercourse) whether committed openly or secretly; and kill not anyone whom Allaah has forbidden, except for a just cause (according to Islamic law). This He has commanded you that you may understand”

[al-An’aam 6:151]

“And ask (O Muhammad) those of Our Messengers whom We sent before you: Did We ever appoint aalihah (gods) to be worshipped besides the Most Gracious (Allaah)?”

[al-Zukhruf 43:45]

4 – It should not be self-contradictory, so it should not issue one command that is contradicted by another, or forbid something then allow something very similar for no reason, or forbid something or allow it for some but not for others. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

5 – The religion should guarantee to protect people’s religious commitment, honour, wealth, lives and children though the commands, prohibitions and morals that it prescribes, which protect these five holistic principles.

6 – The religion should be a mercy to mankind, freeing them from the wrongs that they do to themselves and to one another, whether those wrongs have to do with violating their rights, giving control of wealth to the few or leaders misleading the masses. Allaah says, telling us of the mercy that was contained in the Tawraat which He sent down to Moosa (peace be upon him:

“And when the anger of Moosa (Moses) was calmed down, he took up the Tablets; and in their inscription was guidance and mercy for those who fear their Lord”

[al-A’raaf 7:154 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah says, telling us how He sent ‘Eesa (peace be upon him):

“And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allaah)”

[Maryam 19:21 – interpretation of the meaning]

And Allaah says of Saalih (peace be upon him):

“He said: O my people! Tell me, if I have a clear proof from my Lord, and there has come to me a mercy (Prophethood) from Him”

[Hood 11:63 – interpretation of the meaning]

And He says of the Qur’aan:

“And We send down of the Qur’aan that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe”

[al-Isra’ 17:82 – interpretation of the meaning]

7 – It should include guidance regarding the laws of Allaah and should show people what Allaah wants, and should tell them where they came from and where they are going. Allaah says of the Tawraat:

“Verily, We did send down the Tawraat (Torah) [to Moosa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light”

[al-Maa'idah 5:44 – interpretation of the meaning]

He says of the Injeel:

“and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light”

[al-Maa’idah 5:46 – interpretation of the meaning]

And He says of the Qur’aan:

“It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam)”

[al-Tawbah 9:33 – interpretation of the meaning].

The true religion is that which contains guidance concerning the laws of Allaah and brings security and peace of mind, so that all whispers of the Shaytaan are driven away and all questions are answered, and all confusing matters are cleared up.

8 – It should advocate the best attitudes and actions, such as truthfulness, justice, trustworthiness, modesty, chastity and generosity. And it should forbid bad attitudes and actions, such as disobedience to parents, murder, immoral actions, lying, wrongdoing, oppression, miserliness and promiscuity.

9 – It should bring happiness to those who believe. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Taa‑Haa.

[These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur’aan, and none but Allaah (Alone) knows their meanings.]

We have not sent down the Qur’aan unto you (O Muhammad) to cause you distress”[Ta-Ha 20:1-2]

It should be in accordance with the sound natural disposition of man (al-fitrah):

“Allaah’s Fitrah (i.e. Allaah’s Islamic Monotheism) with which He has created mankind”

[al-Room 30: 30 – interpretation of the meaning]

It should also be in accordance with sound reason and common sense, because the true religion is the laws of Allaah, and sound reason is the creation of Allaah, and it is impossible that the law of Allaah and the creation of Allaah would contradict one another.

10 – It should point towards the truth and warn against falsehood. It should show the way to true guidance and steer people away from misguidance. It should call people to the straight path in which there is no crookedness. Allaah tells us that when the jinn heard the Qur’aan, they said to one another:

“O our people! Verily, we have heard a Book (this Qur’aan) sent down after Moosa (Moses), confirming what came before it, it guides to the truth and to the Straight Path (i.e. Islam)”

[al-Ahqaaf 46:30 – interpretation of the meaning]



It does not call them to that which would cause them misery. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Taa‑Haa.

[These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur’aan, and none but Allaah (Alone) knows their meanings.]

We have not sent down the Qur’aan unto you (O Muhammad) to cause you distress”[Ta-Ha 20:1-2]

And it does not enjoin them to do anything that would cause their doom. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allaah is Most Merciful to you”[al-Nisa’ 4:29]

It does not differentiate between its followers on the grounds of race, colour or tribe. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allaah is that (believer) who has At‑Taqwa [i.e. he is one of the Muttaqoon (the pious)]. Verily, Allaah is All‑Knowing, All‑Aware”

[al-Hujuraat 49:13]

The only distinguishing feature for which people may be preferred over others, according to the true religion, is piety or fear of Allaah.

In the light of the guidelines by which we may distinguish between the true religion and false religions, supported by that which what is said in the Holy Qur’aan, which indicates that these guidelines apply to all the truthful Messengers who were sent from Allaah, we may then discuss different types of religions.

RobDegraves
Gosh... what a long and obviously fanatical post there ahmd. Let's have fun pointing out the logical errors shall we.


QUOTE
It is impossible that they could all be true, because the truth is one; there are not many “truths”.


Good point. Let's look at what side of the truth you are actually on.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It is impossible that they could all be true, because the truth is one; there are not many “truths”.


Good point. Let's look at what side of the truth you are actually on.


1 – The religion should have come from Allaah, revealed through one of the angels to one of His Messengers, to convey it to His slaves, because the true religion is the religion of Allaah


Unless of course Allaah is not a true God, in which case anything coming from him would indeed be a lie.

BTW... rather obvious and sad attempt at circular logic. The religion of Allaah is the true religion and we know this because.... Allaah said so. How pathetic can your reasoning get?

Let's find out.


QUOTE
2 – It should call for the worship of Allaah alone, and forbid shirk (polytheism or the worship of anything other than Allaah)


Unless of course there are many Gods, in which case polytheism would be correct.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
2 – It should call for the worship of Allaah alone, and forbid shirk (polytheism or the worship of anything other than Allaah)


Unless of course there are many Gods, in which case polytheism would be correct.


3 – It should be in accordance with the principles advocated by the Messengers, such as the worship of Allaah alone, calling people to His path, and forbidding shirk, disobedience to parents, unlawful killing and immoral deeds, both hidden and open. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


Unless again the Messengers don't exist which would make your statement a lie.


QUOTE
4 – It should not be self-contradictory, so it should not issue one command that is contradicted by another, or forbid something then allow something very similar for no reason, or forbid something or allow it for some but not for others. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


Well... that would probably apply to just about any religion... as long as it's interpreted by it's followers in the same way as you interpret yours.

However... your statement would still be wrong.

There could be multiple Gods... in which case contradictions might arise.

There could be one God... but His contradictions only appear so to us because we don't have infinite knowledge. This would apply to any and all religions you or I might care to name.

There could be no God(s) ... in which case contradictions, or a lack of contradictions only signifies the care that the writer took when making up the rules.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
4 – It should not be self-contradictory, so it should not issue one command that is contradicted by another, or forbid something then allow something very similar for no reason, or forbid something or allow it for some but not for others. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


Well... that would probably apply to just about any religion... as long as it's interpreted by it's followers in the same way as you interpret yours.

However... your statement would still be wrong.

There could be multiple Gods... in which case contradictions might arise.

There could be one God... but His contradictions only appear so to us because we don't have infinite knowledge. This would apply to any and all religions you or I might care to name.

There could be no God(s) ... in which case contradictions, or a lack of contradictions only signifies the care that the writer took when making up the rules.


5 – The religion should guarantee to protect people’s religious commitment, honour, wealth, lives and children though the commands, prohibitions and morals that it prescribes, which protect these five holistic principles.



Again, most believers would say this applies to their religion... no matter how goofy their religion is.


Also... I note that you have included wealth in there. So...you are saying that Islam protects the wealth of it's believers? Considering that many in the Muslim world live in 3rd world conditions and that most of the West lives in what could be easily described as opulent conditions... your God seems to be falling on the job.

Actually... I have read a number of interesting thesis on the subject. It always seems a puzzle to Muslims as to why Allaah seems to have abandoned them and favors the West. Ever wonder about that? Many of your leading thinkers have.

QUOTE
6 – The religion should be a mercy to mankind, freeing them from the wrongs that they do to themselves and to one another, whether those wrongs have to do with violating their rights, giving control of wealth to the few or leaders misleading the masses.



So... are you trying to say that Muslim leaders have never mislead the masses? I could probably give you at least a dozen examples easy... just from memory where Muslim leaders have misled, cheated and killed their followers and others. There is no indication that Muslims do less wrongs to each other than any other religious group.... ergo, no advantage there.


I know you love to put out statistics of the kind of horrors that happen in the West... and then others put up the same thing about horrors that happen in Muslim countries. The truth is... people are people, Muslim or not.




QUOTE (->
QUOTE
6 – The religion should be a mercy to mankind, freeing them from the wrongs that they do to themselves and to one another, whether those wrongs have to do with violating their rights, giving control of wealth to the few or leaders misleading the masses.



So... are you trying to say that Muslim leaders have never mislead the masses? I could probably give you at least a dozen examples easy... just from memory where Muslim leaders have misled, cheated and killed their followers and others. There is no indication that Muslims do less wrongs to each other than any other religious group.... ergo, no advantage there.


I know you love to put out statistics of the kind of horrors that happen in the West... and then others put up the same thing about horrors that happen in Muslim countries. The truth is... people are people, Muslim or not.




7 – It should include guidance regarding the laws of Allaah and should show people what Allaah wants, and should tell them where they came from and where they are going.


Well... not if Allaah is a false God. In which case, you don't want his guidance now do you.


QUOTE
8 – It should advocate the best attitudes and actions, such as truthfulness, justice, trustworthiness, modesty, chastity and generosity. And it should forbid bad attitudes and actions, such as disobedience to parents, murder, immoral actions, lying, wrongdoing, oppression, miserliness and promiscuity.



Yeah.. because no other religion teaches that. rolleyes.gif

Besides, all those values are only important because you think they are. Maybe the real God has different values and you are just deluded.

Wouldn't it be important to find out if Allaah is actually real before you start proclaiming he's real?


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
8 – It should advocate the best attitudes and actions, such as truthfulness, justice, trustworthiness, modesty, chastity and generosity. And it should forbid bad attitudes and actions, such as disobedience to parents, murder, immoral actions, lying, wrongdoing, oppression, miserliness and promiscuity.



Yeah.. because no other religion teaches that. rolleyes.gif

Besides, all those values are only important because you think they are. Maybe the real God has different values and you are just deluded.

Wouldn't it be important to find out if Allaah is actually real before you start proclaiming he's real?


9 – It should bring happiness to those who believe



Again...applicable to just about every religion on Earth. Weirdly enough...lots of atheists seem to think they are happy too. So... I don't think happiness is a good guide of the truth.

To be honest, people always seem happiest when they are lying to themselves.

In fact... you seem happy. biggrin.gif


QUOTE
10 – It should point towards the truth and warn against falsehood.



Again this applies to every religion ever... and it irrelevant as well. The truth is yet to be determined....ergo you cannot say what religion points to the truth.




Basically....


Unless you can prove that Allaah exists just as you say He does.... all of your points above are completely and utterly wrong.
orestis
QUOTE
(((All those who were killed just wild animals must die. And do not have the right to life)))


Do you understand now

Do you want proof?


See response to member

(Orestis)

He is a model of this thought (obscurantist reactionary fossil brutal) and even alien to the human world. Even in the world of animals for which there is an instance

((( This is evil incarnate )))

See response (orestis). Above directly


"Wild animal."

***-ay, I may be prowling your country now.

Well hell, your re-hashed Jewish, Greek and Christian plagiarism isnt going to convince me that I am that.

Safe, protected Muslim, you must be rich or stupid. You must not want to acknowledge the pictures of body parts taking away from Muslim to Muslim brutality.

(((This is evil incarnate)))

You write from a cheap Iraqi internet shop. You don't have the keyboard, or are to stupid to know how to use " ".

biggrin.gif

Christian or Muslim, I don't understand why you religious fucks don't just enjoy what happiness you may have found. Why do you need to convince others to convince yourselves?

The DSM probably has a name for this condition.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
Why do you need to convince others to convince yourselves?


A rather interesting question.

Another good one might be... "why do you need to convince yourself?"
vkamath
QUOTE (vkamath+Dec 13 2009, 06:30 PM)
ahmd,

Do you think they have represented heaven correctly here?

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/internation...ide-bombers-884

ahmd,

It seems you always fail to condemn terrorism.

Let me ask again, What do you think of the above report?
buttershug
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 14 2009, 02:14 AM)


These unknown books and stories and blind imitation do not provide valid proof with regard to religions and beliefs. Are all these deviant religions and human traditions true or false?

It is impossible that they could all be true, because the truth is one;

It is possible none are true.

Have you considered that possibility?

For example it is not true that "nothing comes from nothing". If it were true were did Allah come from?
If he came from nothing then why could the much lesser Universe have not come from nothing?
ahmd
Allah, CREATED THE UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING
___________________________________________


With ample evidence discovered by science, the thesis of an "infinite universe" was tossed onto the scrap-heap of the history of scientific ideas. Yet, more important questions were forthcoming: what existed before the Big Bang? What force could have caused the great explosion that resulted in a universe that did not exist before?

There is a single answer to be given to the question of what existed before the Big Bang: God, the All-powerful and the Almighty, Who created the earth and the heavens in great order. Many scientists, be they believers or not, are obliged to admit this truth. Although they may decline to admit this fact on scientific platforms, their confessions in between the lines give them away. Renowned atheist philosopher Anthony Flew says:

Notoriously, confession is good for the soul. I will therefore begin by confessing that the Stratonician atheist has to be embarrassed by the contemporary cosmological consensus. For it seems that the cosmologists are providing a scientific proof of what St. Thomas contended could not be proved philosophically; namely, that the universe had a beginning. So long as the universe can be comfortably thought of as being not only without end but also beginning, it remains easy to urge that its brute existence, and whatever are found to be its most fundamental features, should be accepted as the explanatory ultimates. Although I believe that it remains still correct, it certainly is neither easy nor comfortable to maintain this position in the face of the Big Bang story. (Henry Margenau, Roy Abraham Vargesse, Cosmos, Bios, Theos, La Salla IL: Open Court Publishing, 1992, p. 241).

Some scientists like the British materialist physicist H. P. Lipson confess that they have to accept the Big Bang theory whether they want it or not:

If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of atoms, natural forces, and radiation, how has it come into being?… I think, however, that we must…admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it. (H. P. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution", Physics Bulletin, vol. 138, 1980, p. 138).

In conclusion, science points to a single reality whether materialist scientists like it or not. Matter and time have been created by a Creator, Who is All-Powerful and Who created the heavens, the earth and all that is in between: Almighty God.

It is God Who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that God has power over all things and that God encompasses all things in His knowledge. (Surat at-Talaq: 12)
___________________________________________________

THE PERFECT DESIGN IN THE UNIVERSE IS NOT BY CHANCE
____________________________________________________

Just think about the things you see from the moment you wake up in the morning: the pillow under your head, the blanket over you, the alarm clock that woke you up, the slippers you search for as soon as you get out of bed, the window you open to get some fresh air, the clothes hanging in your closet, the mirror you look into every morning, the knife and fork you use for breakfast, the umbrella you take with you when you leave the house, the elevator you get into, the key that opens your car door, the traffic lights along the way, the billboards, the pen, paper and other things on your desk at work...

Spend some time to consider, and it will no doubt occur to you that each of these things was designed for a special purpose. No one would say that it was a matter of chance that everything was where it should be when you arose up in the morning. For example, who would claim that merely by chance, your house key was cut exactly to fit the door? Or that it ended up in your pocket by chance, in the first place? No one would claim that the billboards along the road were put there by chance, or that the meanings they intend came about by randomly painted symbols.

By the same token, no one would deny that a staple—nothing other than a specially shaped piece of wire on your desk—was bent and placed in its dispenser in order to hold papers together. Each staple's metal alloy, size, shape, and intended function show the evidence of deliberate design. It was planned specifically to accommodate your needs; and there's a particular reason why staples are so often found in any office setting.

What about the people you see walking along the street? Or the trees you pass by, the dog that runs out in front of you, the pigeons that build their nests in the eaves of your house, the flowers on your table, the sky above you? Could their existence be by chance, do you think?

It would be nonsense to even consider this possibility! Everything surrounding you, animate and inanimate alike, is too wonderful and complex to be compared with man-made items or ever to be ascribed to the operations of chance. Each is an example of a conscious creation, requiring consummate intelligence and skill. Everyone who finds it illogical to think that even a single staple came about by the proper bending of a wire by chance, will see that it is even more impossible that human beings, cats, birds, trees and the entire universe emerged by chance.

But today, there are people who cannot see this clear reality. Or rather they see it, but pretend not to. They claim that trees, birds, clouds, houses, cars, you yourself, others around you—in short, everything in the universe, animate and inanimate, is all the work of blind chance.

These people, known as Materialist-Darwinists, maintain the contradictory idea that chance occurrences can display supreme intelligence; and that the sum total of millions of chance events, occurring in sequence, can show creative power. According to Materialist-Darwinists, chance events have greater intelligence than every person in the world—no matter how many people have come and gone. They claim that a genius called "chance" has shaped everyone's brain, cognitive ability, judgment, memory, and countless other human characteristics for hundreds of thousands of years.

Let us examine the irrationality of those who have entered the blind alley of chance, ignoring the wondrous design that surrounds them as well as the proofs of creation.

Chance Is Not A Deity: It Is God Who Is The Creator Of All That Exists

The theory of evolution puts forth the irrational claim that all plants, animals and human beings are the result of blind, unconscious, accidental events. Evolutionists believe that millions of years ago, in the primal soup of the oceans or in pools of water, mindless atoms with no knowledge, powers of reason came together in certain proportions and later, by chance, formed the proteins and cells that even today's scientists with the most advanced laboratory technology have not been able to duplicate. They go so far as to say that these cells, in their turn—and again by sheer chance—formed starfish, fish, sparrows, hawks, seagulls, penguins, cats, lambs, lions, and even human beings who possess the faculty of reason.

To demonstrate just how incredible the claims of evolutionists are, let anyone who believes in the creative power of chance events take a large barrel. Let them put into it however much material they believe is required to form a living thing. For example, let them include all the needed elements—carbon, phosphorus, calcium—as well as organic compounds like amino acids, proteins, lipids, and carotene. Then let them add to this mixture whatever outside influence they choose. For example, heat or chill the barrel. Let it be struck by lightning or apply electric current. Let them stir the mixture with whatever advanced devices they may have. In addition, let them stand guard on this barrel transferring this responsibility from father to son for millions, even billions, of years. And so as to increase the chances of success, let them control the mixing at every moment. Let them consult with others; meet with the world's foremost biologists, geneticists, physicists and experts on evolution. Leave them free to produce whatever conditions they deem necessary to originate life.

Yet despite all this serious, conscious effort, they'll never be able to produce anything like a living being in that barrel. No matter what they do, they'll never be able to produce the living things pictured in this book.

Let those atoms in that barrel perform any reactions they want; never will they begin an "evolution" capable of producing brilliant scientists like Einstein and Newton able to solve complex problems; artists like Michelangelo and Picasso able to create masterpieces; musicians like Beethoven and Mozart able to compose melodies to delight the human spirit; discoverers;scientists able to examine under electron microscopes the molecules and atoms out of which they themselves are composed; talented actors like Humphrey Bogart and Charlton Heston; celebrities like Steve Martin, Bon Jovi and Sting. Or consider the many artists; those who take pleasure in symmetry, esthetics and harmonious colors; those able to design automobiles and write books; thinkers with faculties of logic and judgment; human beings able to retain in memory what they have learned, share longings, feel excitement and pleasure; who are possessed with a sense of love, mercy and compassion; who enjoy the taste of food and whose appetite is stimulated by a cake baking in the oven; who laugh at something funny and enjoy being with their friends; who can defend an idea and carry on a discussion.

Bring unconscious atoms together in whatever way you prefer. Never will they be able to bring about a single one of these living things, or even one of their cells.

If so—if no living thing can ever be produced by human effort and the whole pool of human knowledge—how can life be brought into being with the aid of unconscious atoms and chance events? Any intelligent human being of conscience can certainly understand that he—and other living things—cannot be the result of chance events. Every intelligent, unprejudiced person with a conscience knows that God has created all these living things with His incomparable power.

Regrettably, a segment of the population has accepted this irrational scenario throughout the 20th century. Professors, scientists and teachers may ridicule the "primitive" beliefs of pagan societies, while themselves accepting the nonsense of evolution. In this, they're equally as benighted as those human beings who expect a wooden idol can help them. God's Messenger, the Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, also reminded anyone afflicted with such blindness that the greatest sin is associating His creatures with God:

The most severe sin is to associate partners with God, while He has created you. (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim)

In the Qur'an (29:17), God warns those who worship idols and invent lies about them that their power is strong enough to do anything:


Al-Ankaboot

QUOTE
And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers. (14) And We rescued him and those with him in the ship, and made of it a portent for the peoples. (15) And Abraham! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Serve Allah, and keep your duty unto Him; that is better for you if ye did but know. (16) Ye serve instead of Allah only idols, and ye only invent a lie. Lo! those whom ye serve instead of Allah own no provision for you. So seek your provision from Allah, and serve Him, and give thanks unto Him, (for) unto Him ye will be brought back. (17) But if ye deny, then nations have denied before you. The messenger is only to convey (the message) plainly. (18) See they not how Allah produceth creation, then reproduceth it? Lo! for Allah that is easy. (19) Say (O Muhammad): Travel in the land and see how He originated creation, then Allah bringeth forth the later growth. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. (20) He punisheth whom He will and showeth mercy unto whom He will, and unto Him ye will be turned. (21) Ye cannot escape (from Him) in the earth or in the sky, and beside Allah there is for you no friend nor helper. (22) Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah and in (their) Meeting with Him, such have no hope of My mercy. For such there is a painful doom. (23) But the answer of his folk was only that they said: "Kill him" or "Burn him." Then Allah saved him from the Fire. Lo! herein verily are portents for folk who believe. (24) He said: Ye have chosen only idols instead of Allah. The love between you is only in the life of the world. Then on the Day of Resurrection ye will deny each other and curse each other, and your abode will be the Fire, and ye will have no helpers. (25)



ahmd
QUOTE (vkamath+Dec 14 2009, 09:17 AM)
ahmd,

It seems you always fail to condemn terrorism.

Let me ask again, What do you think of the above report?


Islam, much larger than the confines of a group or in the State.

Islam is a religion for many of the billion and a half billion people, how you want the monopoly of a group or country.

But if it be asked whether the Taliban are Muslims?


I'll tell you yes, Taliban are Muslims



vkamath

On the other hand Are you condemn the killing of children, women and men and raping women and children, men and genocide At the hands of U.S. soldiers?


Do you condemn the massacres of Gaza by the Israeli soldiers?

Do you condemn the Inquisition?

Do you condemn U.S. support for the crimes in Palestine?
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 15 2009, 09:32 PM)
On the other hand Are you condemn the killing of children, women and men and raping women and children, men and genocide At the hands of U.S. soldiers?

Do you condemn the massacres of Gaza by the Israeli soldiers?

Do you condemn the Inquisition?

Do you condemn U.S. support for the crimes in Palestine?

So... It's ok because everyone else is doing it? I applaud your high moral standards.

We have no interest in you religion here. Feel free to practice and believe as you choose, but as far as I know, no-one here has a snowman's chance in hell of converting to Islam.

Personally, I think that Islam is no better or worse than Christianity, but that's not saying much. If your religion is the one true religion, why isn't Islam a beacon of hope and love in the world? Why are Muslims stooping to everyone else's level and committing stupid pointless violence?
vkamath
QUOTE (ahmd+)
Islam, much larger than the confines of a group or in the State.

Islam is a religion for many of the billion and a half billion people, how you want the monopoly of a group or country.

But if it be asked whether the Taliban are Muslims?


I'll tell you yes, Taliban are Muslims



As expected, no condemnation of terrorists. In fact you seem to be proud that Taliban are muslims. This is why your religion is considered radical.

QUOTE (ahmd+)

On the other hand Are you condemn the killing of children, women and men and raping women and children, men and genocide At the hands of U.S. soldiers?

Do you condemn the massacres of Gaza by the Israeli soldiers?

Do you condemn the Inquisition?

Do you condemn U.S. support for the crimes in Palestine?


I condemn all kinds of violence in the name of God. I am not here on this forum supporting Christianity or any other religion.

You on the other hand are fully brain washed by your religion. All they need to do next is to get you a suicide vest.
buttershug
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 14 2009, 01:51 AM)

Praise be to Allaah.
Quran is not a book and that it is actually alive today in the hearts of over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims around the world .This is a real miracle. There is no other book like it .No book can compare to it and no other major religion today has their original preserved in the original language by so many followers of the religion


"Did you know?


But the language Muslims speak today has changed.
There are different dialects of Arabic.

And it would not take a miracle for someone or some people to have written a book back then and for millions of people to memorize it and copy it.
Why is that considered a miracle? Other than desperation for a reason to follow it?

Your faith is with the people who tell you these things not with Allah or the Koran.
buttershug
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 14 2009, 01:51 AM)


Yes this is true.

But the QURAN is present from more than 1400 years. And run down by all the people. Muslim and non-Muslim. Could not anyone come Bshi similar to it


((( This is the biggest proof that this Word of Allah )))

Is not this the biggest proof.?


((( And not dialogue for dialogue )))

What about Beowulf? It's older and still available in it's original version.

But in any case in answer to your question.
No it is not the biggest proof because it is not proof at all.

Being 1400 years old is not proof.
Being copied exactly for 1400 years is not proof.
Being memorized exactly is not proof.
Being kept in the original language is not proof.
None of that is even evidence.


The Koran is in a language very few people speak anymore.

In fact being in the original language is evidence it's not from Allah.
Why does he not update it as language changes?

As one example in English, salt.
During that time and earlier it meant life. "Salary" comes from the word salt. It was vital for life. But now it's something to be avoided as much as possible.

If someone back then said "truth is as salt" he would have meant it was vital. Now it would be something to be avoided.

So yeah the Koran not changing is evidence it's not from God.
orestis
QUOTE (ahmd+Dec 15 2009, 10:32 PM)

Islam, much larger than the confines of a group or in the State.

Islam is a religion for many of the billion and a half billion people, how you want the monopoly of a group or country.

But if it be asked whether the Taliban are Muslims?


I'll tell you yes,  Taliban are Muslims


But you didn't condemn them.

QUOTE
On the other hand Are you condemn the killing of children, women and men and raping women and children, men and genocide At the hands of U.S. soldiers?


Yes we do, idiot. That's why they go to jail.

"On the other hand" why did Muslims dance in the streets when the men, women and children of 9/11 were killed?

I ask you again, who started this horror movie between America and Islam?

"Genocide." You forget who tried to wipe out the Marsh Arabs. It wasn't an American.


biggrin.gif "Slave to Allah" That is a telling statement. Oh, that will make us eager to abandon reason and follow you down the trail. Again, I'll repeat wise words that I heard once. "Whether you are the Devil's bitch or God's bitch, you are still a bitch."

I talk with Iraq and Afghanistan veterans almost every week. The things they see Muslims do in the dark with night-vision goggles! Even I'm to embarrassed to say it. But you know what I mean.

biggrin.gif With all the problems Islam has in the countries it is now what could possibly make you come here and try to persuade us?
skepticgriggsy



I'm an autonomous being who finds that it insults me for anyone to prattle that my life means nothing without a divine purpose: I have no divine master! No future state can add to my life's essential meaning, albeit it could add more meanings.
One whines in arguing for divine purpose, and makes that silly non-sequitur in whining that without Him therefore , we have no real purpose.
Francisco Jose Ayala whines such nonsense in his book on evolution and religion.
blink.gif huh.gif tongue.gif
Physfan
Islam is more a war mongering propaganda than a religion. It was used by Mohammed to ready his troops to die for a cause. And, indeed, Islam was spread by the sword.

Why anyone would follow a questionable religion started by an illiterate pedophile is beyond me! (Mohammed was unable to read or write, and he consumated his marriage to his six year old wife when she was nine years old, which, I safely deduce, makes him an illit................................)

Physfan
uaafanblog
What is the purpose of life?

"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women"

Just doesn't get any better than that IMO.
RobDegraves
Quick quiz...

Where is that saying from?

Hint... it's not from Conan.
adoucette
Actually that quote it IS from Conan the Barbarian.

But I suspect you are referring to the fact that it paraphrases Genghis Khan's:

"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters."

Arthur
keith*
What's funny is because of the Khan's inbreeding and killing off a good amount of the local human biogenetic diversity, all his surviving strains are vulnerable to genetic disease and extinction in the future.
adoucette
Kublai did pretty well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kublai_Khan

I think his descendents are doing quite well.

Oh, and the Life Expectancy in much of that part of the world tends to be quite high.

Arthur
keith*
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 16 2010, 07:45 PM)
Kublai did pretty well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kublai_Khan

I think his descendents are doing quite well.

Oh, and the Life Expectancy in much of that part of the world tends to be quite high.

Arthur

We were discussing Genghis, but I don't doubt the confused view you see from your fogged up, rosy colored lenses. On many subjects.

(For example, I leave you with your total quote, to show your readership here how YOU like to drown them in data, even if that data is damning to YOUR point of view).
RobDegraves
And what do you base your view on Genghis then?
adoucette
QUOTE (keith*+Jan 16 2010, 03:50 PM)
We were discussing Genghis, but I don't doubt the confused view you see from your fogged up, rosy colored lenses. On many subjects.

(For example, I leave you with your total quote, to show your readership here how YOU like to drown them in data, even if that data is damning to YOUR point of view).

Ah, you were talking about Genghis' descendents as well.

QUOTE (keith*+)
What's funny is because of the Khan's inbreeding and killing off a good amount of the local human biogenetic diversity, all his surviving strains are vulnerable to genetic disease and extinction in the future.


Kublai was his grandson.

Arthur
keith*
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 16 2010, 09:42 PM)
Ah, you were talking about Genghis' descendents as well.



Kublai was his grandson.

Arthur

Ah, grasshopper, but as I was saying "...all his surviving strains are vulnerable to genetic disease and extinction in the future..."

The great number of genetic harm done to the healthy family strains also, as they will continue to inter-breed with the only "majority biogenetic strain available in the region".

It would be my guess that your family can relate to the situation? rolleyes.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (keith*+Jan 16 2010, 11:37 PM)
Ah, grasshopper, but as I was saying "...all his surviving strains are vulnerable to genetic disease and extinction in the future..."

The great number of genetic harm done to the healthy family strains also, as they will continue to inter-breed with the only "majority biogenetic strain available in the region".

It would be my guess that your family can relate to the situation? rolleyes.gif

Excuse me for thinking you were capable of rational discussion.

My bad.

Won't happen again.

Arthur
Physfan
QUOTE
Ah, grasshopper, but as I was saying "...all his surviving strains are vulnerable to genetic disease and extinction in the future..."

The great number of genetic harm done to the healthy family strains also, as they will continue to inter-breed with the only "majority biogenetic strain available in the region".

It would be my guess that your family can relate to the situation? rolleyes.gif

I don't understand what you are saying either.

Physfan
keith*
I stand comfortable with my statements.

And anyway, hey....being it's you two, the probability is I'm in the company of sockpuppets. blink.gif ph34r.gif
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