I often have the impression that information is a key quantity in physics and especially in quantum physics. So, maybe one could reformulate the whole of physics in terms of information concepts (for instance ; conservation of information, flow of information, etc.). While we all have some feeling of what information means, it becomes really difficult to define it in a clear and objective way. What could be the simplest and clearest definition of information ?
Hi buddha... Information comes in two distinct categories.... That of which we are cognizant... and that of which we are not. Information of which we are cognizant lends itself to a TRUE/FALSE analysis. Information of which we are not cognizant can only be conjectured about... and lends itself to the great field of exploration in order to ascertain whether the conjectures about the unknown are true or false. Cheers
It is an important problem for me , too.
We absorb an energetic information only - our sense react when they are affected by the energetic particles (photons, bosons, baryons).
A space itself is a substance we can not see by our senses. There could be an information but it is not energetic and we can not see it.
We absorb an energetic information only - our sense react when they are affected by the energetic particles (photons, bosons, baryons).
A space itself is a substance we can not see by our senses. There could be an information but it is not energetic and we can not see it.
QUOTE (buddha+Sep 14 2006, 07:35 PM)
So, maybe one could reformulate the whole of physics in terms of information concepts?
By AWT such reformulation cannot be done without lost of information, because the underlying model of AWT is continuous, whereas the information is "digital". Furthemore, here are no signs of information transfer without matter transfer, from which follows, the information is always mediated by the matter, not the vice-versa.
By AWT such reformulation cannot be done without lost of information, because the underlying model of AWT is continuous, whereas the information is "digital". Furthemore, here are no signs of information transfer without matter transfer, from which follows, the information is always mediated by the matter, not the vice-versa.
Asking about the nature of information is like asking about the nature of energy. We can never really know what it is, but we can describe it. For instance, one can say : energy is that thing which is able to set things in motion. Likewise, I would propose for information the following functional description :
Information is that thing that ,when received by a localised system, changes the probability of that system to evolve in a certain way.
An example - at the human level :
Suppose you hear on the radio that there has been a traffic accident on the road you are driving on, 20 km ahead of your present position. Receiving this information, you might decide to take another road. You could also continue along the same road and hope that you nevertheless will able to pass the accident location in a reasonable time. So, the received information has in any case increased the probability of taking another road.
I think that such a kind of definition lends itself to be merged into quantum physics.
Information is that thing that ,when received by a localised system, changes the probability of that system to evolve in a certain way.
An example - at the human level :
Suppose you hear on the radio that there has been a traffic accident on the road you are driving on, 20 km ahead of your present position. Receiving this information, you might decide to take another road. You could also continue along the same road and hope that you nevertheless will able to pass the accident location in a reasonable time. So, the received information has in any case increased the probability of taking another road.
I think that such a kind of definition lends itself to be merged into quantum physics.
QUOTE (Guest_buddha+Sep 15 2006, 07:59 PM)
...Asking about the nature of information is like asking about the nature of energy....
Of course, the information can be mediated just by energy, but I suppose, the information content of the system can be expressed in terms of number of distinct states available. What do you think about such definition?
Of course, the information can be mediated just by energy, but I suppose, the information content of the system can be expressed in terms of number of distinct states available. What do you think about such definition?
all is information
energy is information
energy is information
Anything that a observer realizes is information
Actually, there is a whole branch of physics that deals with information as a physical quantity, closely related to thermodynamics.
QUOTE (Pan+Sep 15 2006, 06:50 PM)
Actually, there is a whole branch of physics that deals with information as a physical quantity, closely related to thermodynamics.
Yes, I know that. There exists really a lot of definitions, theories, etc.
I was however not really satisfied with these and wanted to start from scratch and in a way which is closer to the "physical world" than to our "information society".
Yes, I know that. There exists really a lot of definitions, theories, etc.
I was however not really satisfied with these and wanted to start from scratch and in a way which is closer to the "physical world" than to our "information society".
QUOTE (buddha+Sep 15 2006, 09:57 PM)
..I .. wanted to start from scratch and in a way which is closer to the "physical world" than to our "information society"....
The true is, the physic doesn't knows about information at all, such concept is solely abstract. The discussion about information has no meaning in physic.
The true is, the physic doesn't knows about information at all, such concept is solely abstract. The discussion about information has no meaning in physic.
It's the details.
I don't think information can be quantified in the same way we can quantify energy; therefore is irrelevant to physics because I don't think it is feasible to measure it. It is true that photons, bryons etc, carry information (due to their properties of momentum, energy, spin)etc, but how do we measure information from these?
To me, information can be put in the same category with what people call spirit. We have an idea of what that is, but we can not measure it. I don't have any idea of how something that cannot be measured can be put into physics equations.
To me, information can be put in the same category with what people call spirit. We have an idea of what that is, but we can not measure it. I don't have any idea of how something that cannot be measured can be put into physics equations.
QUOTE (shevykapita+Sep 16 2006, 04:08 AM)
I don't think information can be quantified in the same way we can quantify energy; therefore is irrelevant to physics because I don't think it is feasible to measure it. It is true that photons, bryons etc, carry information (due to their properties of momentum, energy, spin)etc, but how do we measure information from these?
To me, information can be put in the same category with what people call spirit. We have an idea of what that is, but we can not measure it. I don't have any idea of how something that cannot be measured can be put into physics equations.
Indeed, I have the same doubts about this. Nevertheless, I will not give up yet.
To me, information can be put in the same category with what people call spirit. We have an idea of what that is, but we can not measure it. I don't have any idea of how something that cannot be measured can be put into physics equations.
Indeed, I have the same doubts about this. Nevertheless, I will not give up yet.
Hi buddha et al,
Interesting
.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_entropy
http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/bionet....n.Equal.Entropy
Hope this helps.
-C2.
Interesting
. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_entropy
http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/bionet....n.Equal.Entropy
Hope this helps.
-C2.
QUOTE (Zephir+Sep 15 2006, 08:14 PM)
The true is, the physic doesn't knows about information at all, such concept is solely abstract. The discussion about information has no meaning in physic.
Everything in physics acts according to recaived information. Every particle is a minicomputer and moves according to recaived information.
The information needs a space and a time to be distributed and system for absorption. The waves of the energy do carry an information but there is not an absorption of the information.
An electron may absorbe an energy and there is an information absorption.
The energy needs some substantive space (Aether) to create a particle - the absorptions systems.
Everything in physics acts according to recaived information. Every particle is a minicomputer and moves according to recaived information.
The information needs a space and a time to be distributed and system for absorption. The waves of the energy do carry an information but there is not an absorption of the information.
An electron may absorbe an energy and there is an information absorption.
The energy needs some substantive space (Aether) to create a particle - the absorptions systems.
buddha... Parameters must first be defined as to what constitutes "information" before a meaningful definition of the term can be given. Is it an all inclusive term that encompasses any form of action/reaction with or without cognizance? or Is cognizant perception of an action /reaction? Define your parameters and you will have your definition. Cheers
QUOTE (Confused2+Sep 16 2006, 12:26 PM)
Hi buddha et al,
Interesting .
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_entropy
http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/bionet....n.Equal.Entropy
Hope this helps.
-C2.
THanks for this info. Indeed interesting reading. The thing is however that such kinds of theories based on transmission of bits along channels or based on entropy are in my view too restrictive and not really suited to describe a physical system in evolution.
Interesting
. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_entropy
http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/bionet....n.Equal.Entropy
Hope this helps.
-C2.
THanks for this info. Indeed interesting reading. The thing is however that such kinds of theories based on transmission of bits along channels or based on entropy are in my view too restrictive and not really suited to describe a physical system in evolution.
QUOTE (Zephir+Sep 15 2006, 08:14 PM)
The true is, the physic doesn't knows about information at all, such concept is solely abstract. The discussion about information has no meaning in physic.
Are not all our concepts abstract ? Concepts like mass or time are an invention of humans and nature does not care about these and does not need these. From the very moment we write a symbol on a paper to describe some physical quantity we are fooling ourselves in thinking that we know what we are dealing with. We choose concepts which are useful in the sence that our human mind can work with them and describe things in nature. Information is also just a concept, for which we have some vague understanding, and for which we (or I) can hope to build a better model to describe the reality (as we see it).
Are not all our concepts abstract ? Concepts like mass or time are an invention of humans and nature does not care about these and does not need these. From the very moment we write a symbol on a paper to describe some physical quantity we are fooling ourselves in thinking that we know what we are dealing with. We choose concepts which are useful in the sence that our human mind can work with them and describe things in nature. Information is also just a concept, for which we have some vague understanding, and for which we (or I) can hope to build a better model to describe the reality (as we see it).
QUOTE (buddha+Sep 16 2006, 03:24 PM)
Are not all our concepts abstract ? Concepts like mass or time are an invention of humans and nature does not care about these and does not need these. From the very moment we write a symbol on a paper to describe some physical quantity we are fooling ourselves in thinking that we know what we are dealing with. We choose concepts which are useful in the sence that our human mind can work with them and describe things in nature. Information is also just a concept, for which we have some vague understanding, and for which we (or I) can hope to build a better model to describe the reality (as we see it).
An information is a kind of the energetic phenomenons we observe by our senses. The space has the same conditions in every moment and the physics laws seems to be identical in space and time, but in the microscopic world an input of the information may give many different outputs according to uncerntainty principle.
Does it mean that the information is transformed in a hidden way ?
An information is a kind of the energetic phenomenons we observe by our senses. The space has the same conditions in every moment and the physics laws seems to be identical in space and time, but in the microscopic world an input of the information may give many different outputs according to uncerntainty principle.
Does it mean that the information is transformed in a hidden way ?
Buddha et al,
I suspect that - if you can't get it into numbers - it isn't science.
After your post it struck me that it is difficult to define the distance between two points with 'perfect' precision without an infinite amount of information .. I don't know how this is resolved.
Mr_Homms rant .. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=115632 might be of interest.
-C2.
I suspect that - if you can't get it into numbers - it isn't science.
After your post it struck me that it is difficult to define the distance between two points with 'perfect' precision without an infinite amount of information .. I don't know how this is resolved.
Mr_Homms rant .. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=115632 might be of interest.
-C2.
QUOTE (buddha+Sep 16 2006, 02:48 PM)
... Indeed interesting reading. The thing is however that such kinds of theories based on transmission of bits along channels or based on entropy are in my view too restrictive and not really suited to describe a physical system in evolution.
Buddha,
You need to look deeper into Information Theory. While it started from looking at transmitting and receiving data, it is the science of information as a physical property, ie the connection of information and the real world you seem to be wondering about.
Buddha,
You need to look deeper into Information Theory. While it started from looking at transmitting and receiving data, it is the science of information as a physical property, ie the connection of information and the real world you seem to be wondering about.
Hi Pan,
You need to look deeper into Information Theory.
Can you suggest a reference (Information Theory) that sinks its teeth into the question? Intuitively I can see that it can be done but I'm not smart enough to work out how.
-C2.
QUOTE (Pan+)
You need to look deeper into Information Theory.
Can you suggest a reference (Information Theory) that sinks its teeth into the question? Intuitively I can see that it can be done but I'm not smart enough to work out how.
-C2.
QUOTE (Confused2+Sep 16 2006, 06:48 PM)
Buddha et al,
I suspect that - if you can't get it into numbers - it isn't science.
After your post it struck me that it is difficult to define the distance between two points with 'perfect' precision without an infinite amount of information .. I don't know how this is resolved.
Mr_Homms rant .. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=115632 might be of interest.
-C2.
Indeed we are used to use numbers in science, but there exist other approaches too like for instance the one proposed by Wolfram in his book "A new kind of science" (see http://www.wolframscience.com/ ). In his view, the whole of physics is based on RULES, not equations. Likewise, one could think of a kind of information rules, which transform step by step a system.
I suspect that - if you can't get it into numbers - it isn't science.
After your post it struck me that it is difficult to define the distance between two points with 'perfect' precision without an infinite amount of information .. I don't know how this is resolved.
Mr_Homms rant .. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=115632 might be of interest.
-C2.
Indeed we are used to use numbers in science, but there exist other approaches too like for instance the one proposed by Wolfram in his book "A new kind of science" (see http://www.wolframscience.com/ ). In his view, the whole of physics is based on RULES, not equations. Likewise, one could think of a kind of information rules, which transform step by step a system.
QUOTE (czeslaw+Sep 16 2006, 05:18 PM)
An information is a kind of the energetic phenomenons we observe by our senses. The space has the same conditions in every moment and the physics laws seems to be identical in space and time, but in the microscopic world an input of the information may give many different outputs according to uncerntainty principle.
Does it mean that the information is transformed in a hidden way ?
This is a good point. The effect of some information on some system seems to depend on the state of that system so that the same information can result in different effects when received by different systems (even when not taking into consideration the uncertainty principle).
The discussions in this topic have made it clear that I need to do more thinking ("homework") before coming back with this.
Does it mean that the information is transformed in a hidden way ?
This is a good point. The effect of some information on some system seems to depend on the state of that system so that the same information can result in different effects when received by different systems (even when not taking into consideration the uncertainty principle).
The discussions in this topic have made it clear that I need to do more thinking ("homework") before coming back with this.
I reckon information is resultant atemporal interactivity stemming from dimension collapse of a progenitor wave or as I'm begining to think both are one and the same, as interdimensional transit may provide the illusion of waves from one singularity state to another 
Basically the progenitor and descendant collapse singularities all exist in an acausal mishmash; this I've envisaged as event space devoid of size, distance, velocity & time, whereby everything occurs in an ever changing instant......How about that for a short cut to the asylum 
Basically the progenitor and descendant collapse singularities all exist in an acausal mishmash; this I've envisaged as event space devoid of size, distance, velocity & time, whereby everything occurs in an ever changing instant......How about that for a short cut to the asylum
I have an important question.
Is the information able to create a self-organizing system ?
May a system of the information create an intelligence ?
Does an information work against an entropy ?
Is the information able to create a self-organizing system ?
May a system of the information create an intelligence ?
Does an information work against an entropy ?
QUOTE (czeslaw+Sep 18 2006, 01:11 PM)
Is the information able to create a self-organizing system? May a system of the information create an intelligence?
The information cannot create nothing from inertial (i.e. observable) reality, just the inertial reality is able to exchange the energy by the way, we can interpret as a exchange of information.
The information cannot create nothing from inertial (i.e. observable) reality, just the inertial reality is able to exchange the energy by the way, we can interpret as a exchange of information.
QUOTE (Zephir+Sep 18 2006, 10:20 AM)
The information cannot create nothing from inertial (i.e. observable) reality, just the inertial reality is able to exchange the energy by the way, we can interpret as a exchange of information.
Does it mean that an intelligence is created by an other intelligence only ?
Is it not possible to create an artificial inteligence just by an information system ?
Does it mean that an intelligence is created by an other intelligence only ?
Is it not possible to create an artificial inteligence just by an information system ?
QUOTE (czeslaw+Sep 18 2006, 01:41 PM)
Does it mean that an intelligence is created by an other intelligence only?
Nope, it means, the intelligence can evolve spontaneously under proper conditions, as the recursive solution of wave equation of inertial environment.
It's significant, the optimal energy density is exactly in the middle between energy scale limits, which such solution allows. These scales are separated by chaotic singularities, so that the intelligence can appear just at the best organized places inside of our Universe (at the phase interface of certain planets).
It's evident, the complexity is in duality with entropy by the same way, like the potential energy is in duality with kinetic energy and the electrostatic field is in duality with electromagnetic field. The AWT even supposes, at high gravitational field the transition between the complexity and entropy can become solely reversible, thus forming a new sort of meta-waves. Try to imagine the behavior of dense cluster of black holes, which can exchange the matter in gravitational waves freely.
Nope, it means, the intelligence can evolve spontaneously under proper conditions, as the recursive solution of wave equation of inertial environment.
It's significant, the optimal energy density is exactly in the middle between energy scale limits, which such solution allows. These scales are separated by chaotic singularities, so that the intelligence can appear just at the best organized places inside of our Universe (at the phase interface of certain planets).
It's evident, the complexity is in duality with entropy by the same way, like the potential energy is in duality with kinetic energy and the electrostatic field is in duality with electromagnetic field. The AWT even supposes, at high gravitational field the transition between the complexity and entropy can become solely reversible, thus forming a new sort of meta-waves. Try to imagine the behavior of dense cluster of black holes, which can exchange the matter in gravitational waves freely.
Hence, a system of the Informations can create an independent intelligence, self organized and educated.
An inteligence is a special system of the informations created in favourable conditions (as you wrote).
That way the inteligence could be everywhere if there is a sufficient diversification of the information.
An inteligence is a special system of the informations created in favourable conditions (as you wrote).
That way the inteligence could be everywhere if there is a sufficient diversification of the information.
QUOTE (czeslaw+Sep 18 2006, 04:24 PM)
An intelligence is a special system of the informations created in favorable conditions (as you wrote).
I never wrote something like this. The intelligence is formed by matter with high degree of information density (complexity). Here's no testable reason to suggest, the abstract concept (informations) can create something real (Universe simulation hypothesis).
I never wrote something like this. The intelligence is formed by matter with high degree of information density (complexity). Here's no testable reason to suggest, the abstract concept (informations) can create something real (Universe simulation hypothesis).
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