Let us assume for a moment that all of this discussion on Evolution, Creationism, and Inteligent Design were resolved in light of some spectacular new information refuting Evolution and affirming Creationism. Let us further assume that this information made it impossible to deny that the world was created by God in the six days of Genesis. What role would this leave for faith?
Faith is defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence (dictionary.com). So if Christians were offered that "logical proof or material evidence," shouldn't faith cease to exist? It seems crucial to faith - and therefore Christianity in general - that proof doesn't exist. In fact, if proof of anything in the Bible does exist, Christianity would cease to be a religion and become mere fact. How would that help? Christians believe in the Bible because they want to, because it makes them feel something better than they would otherwise, not because there's any proof. People who need proof of the Bible aren't Christians, they're critics.
I'll end with a few questions: Why do we need proof of something based on faith? Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it? Shouldn't they be allowed to choose between fact or faith for themselves? And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
"Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother" - Khalil Gibran
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."- Miguel de Unamuno
"For those with faith, no explanation is necessary. For those without, no explanation is possible." –Thomas Aquinas
"You cannot be a man of faith unless you know how to doubt. You cannot believe in God unless you are capable of questioning the authority of prejudice, even though that prejudice may seem to be religious. Faith is not blind conformity to a prejudice - a "pre-judgment." It is a decision, a judgement that is fully and deliberately taken in light of a truth that cannot be proven. It is not merely the acceptance of a decision that has been made by somebody else." - Thomas Merton
As evidenced by the quotations above, I would agree with you. Doubt is the essense of Faith with a capital "F". To reduce it to the level of knowing that if I drop a book it will fall to the floor would trivialize the experience. It ( what ever 'it' is, ) would become factual, not spiritual.
I would go so far as to conjecture that if God does exist as the the Christian religion envisions, he would make sure there was no concrete indisputable evidence of his existence. And that also comes back to the matter of free will - one has to choose to believe.
And that is what seperates faith from delusion. Ignoring that which can be proven ( leaving aside for the moment the debates about proof and fact going on here ) is delusional. Chosing to believe in that which cannot be proven is faith. There is, to me at least, a qualitative difference between the two.
It is perhaps because of that qualitative difference that I have never made the leap of faith myself, and am one of the officical doubters. It is easy to believe that which is proven, much harder to choose and accept the consequences of faith.
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."- Miguel de Unamuno
"For those with faith, no explanation is necessary. For those without, no explanation is possible." –Thomas Aquinas
"You cannot be a man of faith unless you know how to doubt. You cannot believe in God unless you are capable of questioning the authority of prejudice, even though that prejudice may seem to be religious. Faith is not blind conformity to a prejudice - a "pre-judgment." It is a decision, a judgement that is fully and deliberately taken in light of a truth that cannot be proven. It is not merely the acceptance of a decision that has been made by somebody else." - Thomas Merton
As evidenced by the quotations above, I would agree with you. Doubt is the essense of Faith with a capital "F". To reduce it to the level of knowing that if I drop a book it will fall to the floor would trivialize the experience. It ( what ever 'it' is, ) would become factual, not spiritual.
I would go so far as to conjecture that if God does exist as the the Christian religion envisions, he would make sure there was no concrete indisputable evidence of his existence. And that also comes back to the matter of free will - one has to choose to believe.
And that is what seperates faith from delusion. Ignoring that which can be proven ( leaving aside for the moment the debates about proof and fact going on here ) is delusional. Chosing to believe in that which cannot be proven is faith. There is, to me at least, a qualitative difference between the two.
It is perhaps because of that qualitative difference that I have never made the leap of faith myself, and am one of the officical doubters. It is easy to believe that which is proven, much harder to choose and accept the consequences of faith.
I think there is a lot more to have faith in than just the 2 things you mention.
anyway, 1 There is no conflict between create and evolve ...and
2 the formation of the earth is so 'drop in the ocean' compared to the creation of the cosmos and the life that springs from it.
Faith means belief in salvation, not in ancient translated scriptures that have been thrust upon you being the only truth.
anyway, 1 There is no conflict between create and evolve ...and
2 the formation of the earth is so 'drop in the ocean' compared to the creation of the cosmos and the life that springs from it.
Faith means belief in salvation, not in ancient translated scriptures that have been thrust upon you being the only truth.
silent.cecilia,
Faith leads to proof.
As any truly born again Christian will tell you.
Prior to becoming born again - there is this feeling that God may or may not exist. Somewhere along the line God draws you to Him. You choose to follow or accept these leadings based on faith.
Each step, or leap of faith, brings you closer to God. Then one day, or over a short time period, God stands at the door of your heart and knocks (to use biblical terminology).
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God and you open the door to your heart. God comes in. He's there to stay. He will never leave. You may stray, far from the door from time to time - but you will always come back. Eventually, you never stray.
You now 'know', beyond a shadow of a doubt, with complete conviction, that God is real, and that He loves you.
At this moment - there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will convince you that God is not real.
Because you chose God of your own free will - you received Him, now you have your proof. God loves and knows each person individually and uniquely - so He calls for you in the same way.
---------------
Option 2:
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God. You are a sinner. You don't want to stop your sinning. Or, if you're not such a bad guy/gal, you think you'll have to give up all sorts of things, and you don't want to. Or, you're scared. So you pretend it's not God. You do not open the door to your heart. So because God did not take you kicking and screaming, but let you choose of your own free will - you say there is no proof.
--------------
Why do we need to convince others of it?
1. Because Jesus said so.
2. Because something inside of us HAS to, WANTS to, NEEDS to.
(Maybe it can be compared to a 20 year old male looking for sex. ha/ha/ha/ha. I'm Christian and don't know if I was supposed to say that - but I think it's kinda true, so there, I said it. The difference of course, is that this HAS/WANT/NEED is wholesome, beneficial, and noble.)
3. Because we hate to see people suffer.
4. Because we hate sin and what it does to people.
-----------------
You ask: And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
Well, I have proof, and that was the day my life began.
Think of it this way:
Plant a few teeny, tiny flower seeds in the dirt.
What happens?
Beautful flowers begin to bloom.
That's God's proof. It's a picture describing what will happen to you when you have faith like a tiny little flower seed.
I can just see the little tiny flower seeds: 'Put me in the ground, hurry up, I want to bloom. When are you going to plant me? Do it now!'
The word (Jesus) is the seed in this world.
You are the seed that will bloom in the next.
------------------------
You ask:
Let us assume for a moment that all of this discussion on Evolution, Creationism, and Inteligent Design were resolved in light of some spectacular new information refuting Evolution and affirming Creationism. Let us further assume that this information made it impossible to deny that the world was created by God in the six days of Genesis. What role would this leave for faith?
Then the power that we now have already, firmly established when God's kingdom was established at the time of Jesus; can be fully realized.
We can wipe away every tear (because we all believe).
We can heal the nations (because we all believe). etc.etc. etc.
We can fulfill everything that Revelation says we can accomplish.
It will be a good day, indeed.
---------------
By the way, nice to meet you - great questions.
Faith leads to proof.
As any truly born again Christian will tell you.
Prior to becoming born again - there is this feeling that God may or may not exist. Somewhere along the line God draws you to Him. You choose to follow or accept these leadings based on faith.
Each step, or leap of faith, brings you closer to God. Then one day, or over a short time period, God stands at the door of your heart and knocks (to use biblical terminology).
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God and you open the door to your heart. God comes in. He's there to stay. He will never leave. You may stray, far from the door from time to time - but you will always come back. Eventually, you never stray.
You now 'know', beyond a shadow of a doubt, with complete conviction, that God is real, and that He loves you.
At this moment - there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will convince you that God is not real.
Because you chose God of your own free will - you received Him, now you have your proof. God loves and knows each person individually and uniquely - so He calls for you in the same way.
---------------
Option 2:
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God. You are a sinner. You don't want to stop your sinning. Or, if you're not such a bad guy/gal, you think you'll have to give up all sorts of things, and you don't want to. Or, you're scared. So you pretend it's not God. You do not open the door to your heart. So because God did not take you kicking and screaming, but let you choose of your own free will - you say there is no proof.
--------------
Why do we need to convince others of it?
1. Because Jesus said so.
2. Because something inside of us HAS to, WANTS to, NEEDS to.
(Maybe it can be compared to a 20 year old male looking for sex. ha/ha/ha/ha. I'm Christian and don't know if I was supposed to say that - but I think it's kinda true, so there, I said it. The difference of course, is that this HAS/WANT/NEED is wholesome, beneficial, and noble.)
3. Because we hate to see people suffer.
4. Because we hate sin and what it does to people.
-----------------
You ask: And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
Well, I have proof, and that was the day my life began.
Think of it this way:
Plant a few teeny, tiny flower seeds in the dirt.
What happens?
Beautful flowers begin to bloom.
That's God's proof. It's a picture describing what will happen to you when you have faith like a tiny little flower seed.
I can just see the little tiny flower seeds: 'Put me in the ground, hurry up, I want to bloom. When are you going to plant me? Do it now!'
The word (Jesus) is the seed in this world.
You are the seed that will bloom in the next.
------------------------
You ask:
Let us assume for a moment that all of this discussion on Evolution, Creationism, and Inteligent Design were resolved in light of some spectacular new information refuting Evolution and affirming Creationism. Let us further assume that this information made it impossible to deny that the world was created by God in the six days of Genesis. What role would this leave for faith?
Then the power that we now have already, firmly established when God's kingdom was established at the time of Jesus; can be fully realized.
We can wipe away every tear (because we all believe).
We can heal the nations (because we all believe). etc.etc. etc.
We can fulfill everything that Revelation says we can accomplish.
It will be a good day, indeed.
---------------
By the way, nice to meet you - great questions.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
Some of the approximately 1,000 Christian faith groups in the U.S. and Canada believe themselves to be the only true Christian denomination. Thus, depending on the definition used, the percentage of Christians in the U.S. are between 0.1 and 75% of the total population.
^
Thus, at the root, spirituality is actually all about self satisfaction through opinion and belief. Each thinks that "God" loves them, hears their prayers, and each thinks that they are "right".
Some of the approximately 1,000 Christian faith groups in the U.S. and Canada believe themselves to be the only true Christian denomination. Thus, depending on the definition used, the percentage of Christians in the U.S. are between 0.1 and 75% of the total population.
^
Thus, at the root, spirituality is actually all about self satisfaction through opinion and belief. Each thinks that "God" loves them, hears their prayers, and each thinks that they are "right".
There is no conflict between Creation
and Evolution.
None.
and Evolution.
None.
Hi. I've worked with brain damaged people, so I have a really cynical view of faith.
I've seen people become extremely faithful after they've become brain damaged. In fact, some of the most faithful people I know are schizophrenics. And they are EXTREMELY confident regarding their role in God's Plan.
Because I have seen faith heavily tied to brain damage in my life, I cannot think of it as anything "divine". It's merely a mental conditioin, and nothing special.
IMHO, if faith can be gained through a well-placed hammer blow, it cannot be a result of anything extraordinary. A similar hammer blow can make a person psychotic or depressed (though a different area of the brain would have to be hit).
I'm not saying that faithful people are crazy, being faithful is a normal human condition.
After thinking about my agnosticism, I've realised that there is no 'proof' for God that cannot be replicated through technology or brain damage.
I've seen people become extremely faithful after they've become brain damaged. In fact, some of the most faithful people I know are schizophrenics. And they are EXTREMELY confident regarding their role in God's Plan.
Because I have seen faith heavily tied to brain damage in my life, I cannot think of it as anything "divine". It's merely a mental conditioin, and nothing special.
IMHO, if faith can be gained through a well-placed hammer blow, it cannot be a result of anything extraordinary. A similar hammer blow can make a person psychotic or depressed (though a different area of the brain would have to be hit).
I'm not saying that faithful people are crazy, being faithful is a normal human condition.
After thinking about my agnosticism, I've realised that there is no 'proof' for God that cannot be replicated through technology or brain damage.
El Machinae, brain damage can create obsessive compulsion, excessive feelings of love or attachment, excessive generosity, fear and yes of course, feelings of faith.
You are quite correct that the mechanism of faith, just like the mechanisms of all the above, are part of the human animal. But, just like love, be it for friend, spouse or child, is "just a mental condition", that does not mean it is not valuable and important... "extraordinary" if you will.
The fact that humans ( at least ) seem hardwired for faith indicates that it is important to us and to what we are.
Of course, just like any other human trait, it can malfunction, be misdirected, or distorted out of proportion. This is where choice, and accepting responsibility for the consequences of those choices is important. Your schizophrenics do not take responsibility for the acts they ascribe to faith ( and it can be debated as to how much choice they had in their belief ... like an obsessive compulsive they no longer can use the rational to linit and guide their innate tendencies.)
There are sadly all too many people that use faith as an excuse not to accept responsibility. But making that leap of faith to believe in something that cannot be proven if anything increases the burden of responsibility. You cannot, as in science, depend on peer review and other mechanisms to check your findings and correct any errors.
The act of faith can be noble, as can self sacrifice for the good of others. But like the tendency for noble self sacrifice can be twisted to create suicide bombers, the mechanisms of faith can be twisted into a self righteous justification for the imposition of personal desires with heed to the consequences. But just like I wouldn't want to write self sacrifice out of human nature, or lessen the importance it has because of it's occaisional abuse, neither would I dismiss faith.
You are quite correct that the mechanism of faith, just like the mechanisms of all the above, are part of the human animal. But, just like love, be it for friend, spouse or child, is "just a mental condition", that does not mean it is not valuable and important... "extraordinary" if you will.
The fact that humans ( at least ) seem hardwired for faith indicates that it is important to us and to what we are.
Of course, just like any other human trait, it can malfunction, be misdirected, or distorted out of proportion. This is where choice, and accepting responsibility for the consequences of those choices is important. Your schizophrenics do not take responsibility for the acts they ascribe to faith ( and it can be debated as to how much choice they had in their belief ... like an obsessive compulsive they no longer can use the rational to linit and guide their innate tendencies.)
There are sadly all too many people that use faith as an excuse not to accept responsibility. But making that leap of faith to believe in something that cannot be proven if anything increases the burden of responsibility. You cannot, as in science, depend on peer review and other mechanisms to check your findings and correct any errors.
The act of faith can be noble, as can self sacrifice for the good of others. But like the tendency for noble self sacrifice can be twisted to create suicide bombers, the mechanisms of faith can be twisted into a self righteous justification for the imposition of personal desires with heed to the consequences. But just like I wouldn't want to write self sacrifice out of human nature, or lessen the importance it has because of it's occaisional abuse, neither would I dismiss faith.
Faith is all we really have. Without faith and hope existence is stifled and bland. There is so much more to reality than the small corner of it that we inhabit. Faith tells us that and importantly so.
sc,
My question to you is; why do you think it acceptable to remain rooted in backward superstition? It has been said many times, however, it bears repeating; god filled the 'gaps' of human understanding. Now the gaps are smaller and fewer in number. We, humanity, don't need to defer to some fairy to explain much at all, and what we don't know today, we will next week, next month, next year or in ten years time. It is only a matter of time.
Secondly, if religion was benign, I would be inclined to agree with you but it isn't. All religions feel a need to interfere with my life in many ways; their views on morality, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose. They believe that some fairy gives them the right to impose their views on everyone else.
Physfan
QUOTE
I'll end with a few questions: Why do we need proof of something based on faith? Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it? Shouldn't they be allowed to choose between fact or faith for themselves? And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
My question to you is; why do you think it acceptable to remain rooted in backward superstition? It has been said many times, however, it bears repeating; god filled the 'gaps' of human understanding. Now the gaps are smaller and fewer in number. We, humanity, don't need to defer to some fairy to explain much at all, and what we don't know today, we will next week, next month, next year or in ten years time. It is only a matter of time.
Secondly, if religion was benign, I would be inclined to agree with you but it isn't. All religions feel a need to interfere with my life in many ways; their views on morality, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose. They believe that some fairy gives them the right to impose their views on everyone else.
Physfan
QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light+Jun 27 2008, 06:50 AM)
Faith is all we really have.
If all you have is faith then something is seriously wrong. Most have friends, family, jobs and hobbies that give them a purpose for being and live by an even higher moral code than you seem to be able to achieve (as evidenced by bigoted statements downing those who do not follow your religion).
If all you have is faith then something is seriously wrong. Most have friends, family, jobs and hobbies that give them a purpose for being and live by an even higher moral code than you seem to be able to achieve (as evidenced by bigoted statements downing those who do not follow your religion).
QUOTE (silent.cecilia+Jan 22 2006, 03:16 AM)
Why do we need proof of something based on faith? Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it? Shouldn't they be allowed to choose between fact or faith for themselves? And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
And the questions:
Believers often consider what they believe to be fact even when there are hundreds with a different views making the odds of their being correct very slight. Makes them feel good to believe it, which is addictive, which leads to denial of it being possible that they are wrong.
Believers often consider what they believe to be fact even when there are hundreds with a different views making the odds of their being correct very slight. Makes them feel good to believe it, which is addictive, which leads to denial of it being possible that they are wrong.
Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it?
That feels good too. The brain enjoys imposing its moral will on others. And the more that believe something, the more true it seems to be.
Yes they should.
Yes they should.
And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
It would then take less 'faith' to believe it. A religion with proof behind it would probably do very well, which is why some claim to have proof they are right when they really don't.
And the questions:
QUOTE
Why do we need proof of something based on faith?
Believers often consider what they believe to be fact even when there are hundreds with a different views making the odds of their being correct very slight. Makes them feel good to believe it, which is addictive, which leads to denial of it being possible that they are wrong.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Why do we need proof of something based on faith? |
Believers often consider what they believe to be fact even when there are hundreds with a different views making the odds of their being correct very slight. Makes them feel good to believe it, which is addictive, which leads to denial of it being possible that they are wrong.
Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it?
That feels good too. The brain enjoys imposing its moral will on others. And the more that believe something, the more true it seems to be.
QUOTE
Shouldn't they be allowed to choose between fact or faith for themselves?
Yes they should.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Shouldn't they be allowed to choose between fact or faith for themselves? |
Yes they should.
And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
It would then take less 'faith' to believe it. A religion with proof behind it would probably do very well, which is why some claim to have proof they are right when they really don't.
Beliefs have there place, questioning them is where it's at. 
Facts are facts, learning and developing ways to understand those facts does not require religious faith, but does require honesty and often co-operation and intelligence.
Science is like the lens we use to see the reality via understanding facts, Religion does not require this lens and is more like closing ones eyes and hoping that beliefs are facts.
Sometimes a faith might be a fact, but there is no method of confirmation.
regardless of what faiths and beliefs we may hold, they may not be true facts.
Some deny facts that contradict their faiths and beliefs or are not understood ie; evolution.
When facts cannot be established or not yet, the door is open for speculation even from the learned and honest. This is fine provided they are prepared to concede faiths in light of further understanding, Otherwise truthful learning and understanding are compromised, so begins the slippery slope to believing in nonsense without factual evidence but with faithful conviction and often willful ignorance.
Facts are facts, learning and developing ways to understand those facts does not require religious faith, but does require honesty and often co-operation and intelligence.
Science is like the lens we use to see the reality via understanding facts, Religion does not require this lens and is more like closing ones eyes and hoping that beliefs are facts.
Sometimes a faith might be a fact, but there is no method of confirmation.
regardless of what faiths and beliefs we may hold, they may not be true facts.
Some deny facts that contradict their faiths and beliefs or are not understood ie; evolution.
When facts cannot be established or not yet, the door is open for speculation even from the learned and honest. This is fine provided they are prepared to concede faiths in light of further understanding, Otherwise truthful learning and understanding are compromised, so begins the slippery slope to believing in nonsense without factual evidence but with faithful conviction and often willful ignorance.
QUOTE (Physfan+Jul 3 2008, 04:12 AM)
sc,
My question to you is; why do you think it acceptable to remain rooted in backward superstition? It has been said many times, however, it bears repeating; god filled the 'gaps' of human understanding. Now the gaps are smaller and fewer in number. We, humanity, don't need to defer to some fairy to explain much at all, and what we don't know today, we will next week, next month, next year or in ten years time. It is only a matter of time.
Secondly, if religion was benign, I would be inclined to agree with you but it isn't. All religions feel a need to interfere with my life in many ways; their views on morality, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose. They believe that some fairy gives them the right to impose their views on everyone else.
Physfan
As to your "gaps".
Consider the amount of true scientific knowledge prior to the enlightenment, say 1000 CE, and compare the advance in knowledge of today, 2008 CE.
So using whatever unit of measure you like lets consider that difference, the amount of scientific knowledge gained.
Compare it to the total amount of knowledge POSSIBLE to know. In other words, what percent of what we now know is there of everything to know?
The answer? A vanishingly MINISCULE amount. The difference between what we now know, and what we knew then, is not even slightly significant.
Your GAPS are exceedingly huge, and have not shrunk even mildly.
The only one who seems to think your knowledge level is approaching omniscient, is apparently you...
My question to you is; why do you think it acceptable to remain rooted in backward superstition? It has been said many times, however, it bears repeating; god filled the 'gaps' of human understanding. Now the gaps are smaller and fewer in number. We, humanity, don't need to defer to some fairy to explain much at all, and what we don't know today, we will next week, next month, next year or in ten years time. It is only a matter of time.
Secondly, if religion was benign, I would be inclined to agree with you but it isn't. All religions feel a need to interfere with my life in many ways; their views on morality, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose. They believe that some fairy gives them the right to impose their views on everyone else.
Physfan
As to your "gaps".
Consider the amount of true scientific knowledge prior to the enlightenment, say 1000 CE, and compare the advance in knowledge of today, 2008 CE.
So using whatever unit of measure you like lets consider that difference, the amount of scientific knowledge gained.
Compare it to the total amount of knowledge POSSIBLE to know. In other words, what percent of what we now know is there of everything to know?
The answer? A vanishingly MINISCULE amount. The difference between what we now know, and what we knew then, is not even slightly significant.
Your GAPS are exceedingly huge, and have not shrunk even mildly.
The only one who seems to think your knowledge level is approaching omniscient, is apparently you...
Dude you frighten me, and silliness of your kind is what gives religious people a bad name.
silent.cecilia,
Faith leads to proof.
Uh...no. Absolute self delusion buddy.
Faith leads to belief. If you think FAITH makes TRUTH then you must also grant that you can make anything true by believing in it. Seriously dude, you need to drop the Kool-aid and reclaim your mind.
(...edited)
You now 'know', beyond a shadow of a doubt, with complete conviction, that God is real, and that He loves you.
Uh, no. That is BELIEF not knowledge. Confusing the two is what makes everyone think you are crazy (including me). This idiotic refusal to think for yourself and accept reality is only going to cause you, and everyone else around you problems when reality does not match your expectations. When your BELIEF tries to override FACT and KNOWLEDGE, you need to check yourself. Seriously, I fear for you.
I just left the rest out, as it may sell in your church or on TV, but to a thinking person you are just babbling gobbledegook.
If that is the totality of what your religion is and means to you, you are due (and soon) for disappointment when reality and realization catches you up.
It takes a REAL man of faith to believe and have faith WITHOUT knowing...if you claim to know, you are just deluded. Knowing is not required, it is in fact the opposite and mutually exclusive of faith. If you think you know, check yourself into a deprogrammer son, and do us all a favor, as well as yourself.
QUOTE (Messenger+Jan 22 2006, 07:40 AM)
silent.cecilia,
Faith leads to proof.
Uh...no. Absolute self delusion buddy.
Faith leads to belief. If you think FAITH makes TRUTH then you must also grant that you can make anything true by believing in it. Seriously dude, you need to drop the Kool-aid and reclaim your mind.
QUOTE (Messenger+Jan 22 2006, 07:40 AM)
(...edited)
You now 'know', beyond a shadow of a doubt, with complete conviction, that God is real, and that He loves you.
Uh, no. That is BELIEF not knowledge. Confusing the two is what makes everyone think you are crazy (including me). This idiotic refusal to think for yourself and accept reality is only going to cause you, and everyone else around you problems when reality does not match your expectations. When your BELIEF tries to override FACT and KNOWLEDGE, you need to check yourself. Seriously, I fear for you.
I just left the rest out, as it may sell in your church or on TV, but to a thinking person you are just babbling gobbledegook.
If that is the totality of what your religion is and means to you, you are due (and soon) for disappointment when reality and realization catches you up.
It takes a REAL man of faith to believe and have faith WITHOUT knowing...if you claim to know, you are just deluded. Knowing is not required, it is in fact the opposite and mutually exclusive of faith. If you think you know, check yourself into a deprogrammer son, and do us all a favor, as well as yourself.
QUOTE (Messenger+Jan 22 2006, 07:40 AM)
silent.cecilia,
Faith leads to proof.
As any truly born again Christian will tell you.
Prior to becoming born again - there is this feeling that God may or may not exist. Somewhere along the line God draws you to Him. You choose to follow or accept these leadings based on faith.
Each step, or leap of faith, brings you closer to God. Then one day, or over a short time period, God stands at the door of your heart and knocks (to use biblical terminology).
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God and you open the door to your heart. God comes in. He's there to stay. He will never leave. You may stray, far from the door from time to time - but you will always come back. Eventually, you never stray.
You now 'know', beyond a shadow of a doubt, with complete conviction, that God is real, and that He loves you.
At this moment - there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will convince you that God is not real.
Because you chose God of your own free will - you received Him, now you have your proof. God loves and knows each person individually and uniquely - so He calls for you in the same way.
---------------
Option 2:
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God. You are a sinner. You don't want to stop your sinning. Or, if you're not such a bad guy/gal, you think you'll have to give up all sorts of things, and you don't want to. Or, you're scared. So you pretend it's not God. You do not open the door to your heart. So because God did not take you kicking and screaming, but let you choose of your own free will - you say there is no proof.
--------------
Why do we need to convince others of it?
1. Because Jesus said so.
2. Because something inside of us HAS to, WANTS to, NEEDS to.
(Maybe it can be compared to a 20 year old male looking for sex. ha/ha/ha/ha. I'm Christian and don't know if I was supposed to say that - but I think it's kinda true, so there, I said it. The difference of course, is that this HAS/WANT/NEED is wholesome, beneficial, and noble.)
3. Because we hate to see people suffer.
4. Because we hate sin and what it does to people.
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You ask: And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
Well, I have proof, and that was the day my life began.
Think of it this way:
Plant a few teeny, tiny flower seeds in the dirt.
What happens?
Beautful flowers begin to bloom.
That's God's proof. It's a picture describing what will happen to you when you have faith like a tiny little flower seed.
I can just see the little tiny flower seeds: 'Put me in the ground, hurry up, I want to bloom. When are you going to plant me? Do it now!'
The word (Jesus) is the seed in this world.
You are the seed that will bloom in the next.
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You ask:
Let us assume for a moment that all of this discussion on Evolution, Creationism, and Inteligent Design were resolved in light of some spectacular new information refuting Evolution and affirming Creationism. Let us further assume that this information made it impossible to deny that the world was created by God in the six days of Genesis. What role would this leave for faith?
Then the power that we now have already, firmly established when God's kingdom was established at the time of Jesus; can be fully realized.
We can wipe away every tear (because we all believe).
We can heal the nations (because we all believe). etc.etc. etc.
We can fulfill everything that Revelation says we can accomplish.
It will be a good day, indeed.
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By the way, nice to meet you - great questions.
And in return of what your god does. (your bible quotes)
Murder in the Bible
The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.
The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.
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1) Capital Punishment Crimes:
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
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2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:
Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
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3) Murdering Children
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
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4) Miscellaneous Murders
More of Samson's Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ***; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People
There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More
Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.
Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.
When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho
When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family
"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death
That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners
And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Murder
At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town
Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
Sorry dude. find it hard to have faith in such a mean sonofabitch that kills for these kinds of reasons.
MM
Faith leads to proof.
As any truly born again Christian will tell you.
Prior to becoming born again - there is this feeling that God may or may not exist. Somewhere along the line God draws you to Him. You choose to follow or accept these leadings based on faith.
Each step, or leap of faith, brings you closer to God. Then one day, or over a short time period, God stands at the door of your heart and knocks (to use biblical terminology).
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God and you open the door to your heart. God comes in. He's there to stay. He will never leave. You may stray, far from the door from time to time - but you will always come back. Eventually, you never stray.
You now 'know', beyond a shadow of a doubt, with complete conviction, that God is real, and that He loves you.
At this moment - there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will convince you that God is not real.
Because you chose God of your own free will - you received Him, now you have your proof. God loves and knows each person individually and uniquely - so He calls for you in the same way.
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Option 2:
You hear the knocking. Your faith says this is God. You are a sinner. You don't want to stop your sinning. Or, if you're not such a bad guy/gal, you think you'll have to give up all sorts of things, and you don't want to. Or, you're scared. So you pretend it's not God. You do not open the door to your heart. So because God did not take you kicking and screaming, but let you choose of your own free will - you say there is no proof.
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Why do we need to convince others of it?
1. Because Jesus said so.
2. Because something inside of us HAS to, WANTS to, NEEDS to.
(Maybe it can be compared to a 20 year old male looking for sex. ha/ha/ha/ha. I'm Christian and don't know if I was supposed to say that - but I think it's kinda true, so there, I said it. The difference of course, is that this HAS/WANT/NEED is wholesome, beneficial, and noble.)
3. Because we hate to see people suffer.
4. Because we hate sin and what it does to people.
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You ask: And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
Well, I have proof, and that was the day my life began.
Think of it this way:
Plant a few teeny, tiny flower seeds in the dirt.
What happens?
Beautful flowers begin to bloom.
That's God's proof. It's a picture describing what will happen to you when you have faith like a tiny little flower seed.
I can just see the little tiny flower seeds: 'Put me in the ground, hurry up, I want to bloom. When are you going to plant me? Do it now!'
The word (Jesus) is the seed in this world.
You are the seed that will bloom in the next.
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You ask:
Let us assume for a moment that all of this discussion on Evolution, Creationism, and Inteligent Design were resolved in light of some spectacular new information refuting Evolution and affirming Creationism. Let us further assume that this information made it impossible to deny that the world was created by God in the six days of Genesis. What role would this leave for faith?
Then the power that we now have already, firmly established when God's kingdom was established at the time of Jesus; can be fully realized.
We can wipe away every tear (because we all believe).
We can heal the nations (because we all believe). etc.etc. etc.
We can fulfill everything that Revelation says we can accomplish.
It will be a good day, indeed.
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By the way, nice to meet you - great questions.
And in return of what your god does. (your bible quotes)
Murder in the Bible
The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.
The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.
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1) Capital Punishment Crimes:
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
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2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:
Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
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3) Murdering Children
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
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4) Miscellaneous Murders
More of Samson's Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ***; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People
There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More
Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.
Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.
When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho
When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family
"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death
That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners
And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Murder
At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town
Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
Sorry dude. find it hard to have faith in such a mean sonofabitch that kills for these kinds of reasons.
MM
QUOTE (silent.cecilia+Jan 21 2006, 11:16 PM)
Let us assume for a moment that all of this discussion on Evolution, Creationism, and Inteligent Design were resolved in light of some spectacular new information refuting Evolution and affirming Creationism. Let us further assume that this information made it impossible to deny that the world was created by God in the six days of Genesis. What role would this leave for faith?
Faith is defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence (dictionary.com). So if Christians were offered that "logical proof or material evidence," shouldn't faith cease to exist? It seems crucial to faith - and therefore Christianity in general - that proof doesn't exist. In fact, if proof of anything in the Bible does exist, Christianity would cease to be a religion and become mere fact. How would that help? Christians believe in the Bible because they want to, because it makes them feel something better than they would otherwise, not because there's any proof. People who need proof of the Bible aren't Christians, they're critics.
I'll end with a few questions: Why do we need proof of something based on faith? Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it? Shouldn't they be allowed to choose between fact or faith for themselves? And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
Faith is not just certainty without evidence, it's certainty in spite of evidence.
Faith is defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence (dictionary.com). So if Christians were offered that "logical proof or material evidence," shouldn't faith cease to exist? It seems crucial to faith - and therefore Christianity in general - that proof doesn't exist. In fact, if proof of anything in the Bible does exist, Christianity would cease to be a religion and become mere fact. How would that help? Christians believe in the Bible because they want to, because it makes them feel something better than they would otherwise, not because there's any proof. People who need proof of the Bible aren't Christians, they're critics.
I'll end with a few questions: Why do we need proof of something based on faith? Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it? Shouldn't they be allowed to choose between fact or faith for themselves? And finally, wouldn't it ruin the entire idea of 'faith' if there were proof?
Faith is not just certainty without evidence, it's certainty in spite of evidence.
QUOTE (Dabeer+Jul 13 2008, 04:26 AM)
Faith is not just certainty without evidence, it's certainty in spite of evidence.
Uh...no...
Faith is BELIEF without evidence, without evidence certainty cannot be had reasonably.
In the previous guys case, he has unfounded certainty based on a belief, that he mistakes for KNOWLEDGE.
That is not true of religion in general, just this guy's (and I am sure many others like him) mistaken philosophy.
Uh...no...
Faith is BELIEF without evidence, without evidence certainty cannot be had reasonably.
In the previous guys case, he has unfounded certainty based on a belief, that he mistakes for KNOWLEDGE.
That is not true of religion in general, just this guy's (and I am sure many others like him) mistaken philosophy.
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 01:04 AM)
Uh...no...
Faith is BELIEF without evidence, without evidence certainty cannot be had reasonably.
I'll rephrase if you believe I misspoke... since you emphasized "belief" I'll assume that was the point of contention?
Faith is BELIEF without evidence, without evidence certainty cannot be had reasonably.
I'll rephrase if you believe I misspoke... since you emphasized "belief" I'll assume that was the point of contention?
QUOTE (Dabeer+)
Faith is not just belief without supporting evidence, it is belief in spite of evidence to the contrary.
And you can quote me on that.
This is only the illusion.
People are confronting themselves by questioning others. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are 'correct', and this is because we are unsure, fundamentally. Even 'mathematics' doesn't add up ~ to Reality.
g.
This is only the illusion.
People are confronting themselves by questioning others. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are 'correct', and this is because we are unsure, fundamentally. Even 'mathematics' doesn't add up ~ to Reality.
g.
Why do we need to convince others of it?
Wow, do you really not get that is what DEMOCRACY is? That is what GOVERNMENT and CIVILIZATION is for?
To come to an agreement and compromise to promote society and benefit of the society and individual.
Without attempt at agreement and compromise, there is only Anarchy and war.
This is only the illusion.
People are confronting themselves by questioning others. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are 'correct', and this is because we are unsure, fundamentally. Even 'mathematics' doesn't add up ~ to Reality.
g.
Anyone who does not understand or disagrees should study Jung.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
Did you mean "not all religion"
Yes, exactly, obviously SOME religions do that, but then some of many different possible philosophies not "religious" can do the same. Just making the point that stereotype does not hold for all religion, and not mine.
The Catholic Church believes communion wafers and wine become the flesh and blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation - we believe the wafers and wine are mystically changed into the flesh and blood of GOD, not a man named Jesus Christ, but his divine aspect.
All evidence says "no"
Really? You have a God detector? You are going to be a VERY rich man. Because you see, the catholic church believes it maintains all of the same characteristics of its previous aspect, it just becomes God. Not Man, which would be cannibalism. Eating God is not cannibalism. Just throwing that in before you run off on that tangent.
Do you believe it becomes the flesh and blood of Christ or not?
Yes I do. Because unlike you I do not have a God detector, so I can choose to believe it is exactly that. There is no harm in it, I do not understand why that bothers you so much.
The church says it looks and tastes like wafers and wine but have faith it's really the flesh and blood of Christ.
Oh and I'm still going with what the Pope says instead of what you say.
Funny, where did the Pope say something different?
And you can quote me on that.
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 01:04 AM)
In the previous guys case, he has unfounded certainty based on a belief, that he mistakes for KNOWLEDGE.
That is not true of religion in general, just this guy's (and I am sure many others like him) mistaken philosophy.
Fair enough.
That is not true of religion in general, just this guy's (and I am sure many others like him) mistaken philosophy.
Fair enough.
QUOTE (Dabeer+Jul 13 2008, 05:21 AM)
I'll rephrase if you believe I misspoke... since you emphasized "belief" I'll assume that was the point of contention?
And you can quote me on that.
Fair enough.
I am just saying ALL RELIGION, (and certainly not me or my religion) has faith "in spite of" any facts or evidence. Obviously this guy does, and we know of many that do. But neither I nor the Catholic church are that way.
And you can quote me on that.
Fair enough.
I am just saying ALL RELIGION, (and certainly not me or my religion) has faith "in spite of" any facts or evidence. Obviously this guy does, and we know of many that do. But neither I nor the Catholic church are that way.
hi guys
Faith is not a religion based experience, although it has it's comparison. I have faith in people as well.
The amount of faith has more to do with the level of experience4 I have in that person. I 'believe' people who seldom let me down, and believe less in those who do me wrong.
Faith has more to do with this than any other way of looking at things. "having faith in God" is the utmost conviction that every day holds promise for you . that nothing is too great to be overcome, if you are in sinc with certain parameters ruled by 1. laws and 2. by conscience.
This does not need to be interpreted. People make their own failures whether they follow text based learning or choose to do right by conscience alone. Consequence is not faith based. "If I believe hard enough , it will happen". NO.
I gain the result that I set forth. ......This does not mean every day will be grand or that the result will be as expected. But life in general will favor through the generations , those who do well by others. This goes right back to "I have faith in Those I have experience with"
Cheers
Iseason
Faith is not a religion based experience, although it has it's comparison. I have faith in people as well.
The amount of faith has more to do with the level of experience4 I have in that person. I 'believe' people who seldom let me down, and believe less in those who do me wrong.
Faith has more to do with this than any other way of looking at things. "having faith in God" is the utmost conviction that every day holds promise for you . that nothing is too great to be overcome, if you are in sinc with certain parameters ruled by 1. laws and 2. by conscience.
This does not need to be interpreted. People make their own failures whether they follow text based learning or choose to do right by conscience alone. Consequence is not faith based. "If I believe hard enough , it will happen". NO.
I gain the result that I set forth. ......This does not mean every day will be grand or that the result will be as expected. But life in general will favor through the generations , those who do well by others. This goes right back to "I have faith in Those I have experience with"
Cheers
Iseason
QUOTE
Furthermore, why do we need to convince others of it?
This is only the illusion.
People are confronting themselves by questioning others. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are 'correct', and this is because we are unsure, fundamentally. Even 'mathematics' doesn't add up ~ to Reality.
g.
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 13 2008, 10:52 AM)
This is only the illusion.
People are confronting themselves by questioning others. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are 'correct', and this is because we are unsure, fundamentally. Even 'mathematics' doesn't add up ~ to Reality.
g.
Why do we need to convince others of it?
Wow, do you really not get that is what DEMOCRACY is? That is what GOVERNMENT and CIVILIZATION is for?
To come to an agreement and compromise to promote society and benefit of the society and individual.
Without attempt at agreement and compromise, there is only Anarchy and war.
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 12:37 PM)
Why do we need to convince others of it? ~ Because people have doubts. They do not know what is Real, but we have built societies of deception and so we are now all empowered to try to use this tool to our own personal benefit.
Wow, do you really not get that is what DEMOCRACY is? That is what GOVERNMENT and CIVILIZATION is for? ~ Nice twist! You're becoming quite an expert at this dance... 'Anarchy' is a word that the Real terrorists make up, to scare you into a state of self-inflicted slavery. Before there was 'religious-politics' there were small tribes of nomadic peoples who rarely fought over anything. In fact, it was a great advantage to have people around you that you could trust. This was the Natural way. It was not 'perfect', as such a thing cannot exist, but this religious-political deceit we have now will be the end of Humans unless we can learn to live without it, and so learn to trust each other once again.
To come to an agreement and compromise to promote society and benefit of the society and individual.
Without attempt at agreement and compromise, there is only Anarchy and war. ~ We do not 'vote' for Freedom. Real Freedom is the birthright of all things existent. We vote to deprive ourselves of this birthright, because only when we are missing something do we truly appreciate it.
Wise men do not become 'politicians' ~ Evolution always pushes forwards.
g.
Wow, do you really not get that is what DEMOCRACY is? That is what GOVERNMENT and CIVILIZATION is for? ~ Nice twist! You're becoming quite an expert at this dance... 'Anarchy' is a word that the Real terrorists make up, to scare you into a state of self-inflicted slavery. Before there was 'religious-politics' there were small tribes of nomadic peoples who rarely fought over anything. In fact, it was a great advantage to have people around you that you could trust. This was the Natural way. It was not 'perfect', as such a thing cannot exist, but this religious-political deceit we have now will be the end of Humans unless we can learn to live without it, and so learn to trust each other once again.
To come to an agreement and compromise to promote society and benefit of the society and individual.
Without attempt at agreement and compromise, there is only Anarchy and war. ~ We do not 'vote' for Freedom. Real Freedom is the birthright of all things existent. We vote to deprive ourselves of this birthright, because only when we are missing something do we truly appreciate it.
Wise men do not become 'politicians' ~ Evolution always pushes forwards.
g.
QUOTE (Masked Marauder+Jul 13 2008, 04:12 PM)
The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.
The Christian/Jewish/Muslim god is clearly insane, as are all who believe in him.
The Christian/Jewish/Muslim god is clearly insane, as are all who believe in him.
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 13 2008, 11:54 PM)
Wise men do not become 'politicians' ~ Evolution always pushes forwards.
g.
to what, Anarchy?
g.
to what, Anarchy?
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 13 2008, 10:52 AM)
This is only the illusion.
People are confronting themselves by questioning others. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are 'correct', and this is because we are unsure, fundamentally. Even 'mathematics' doesn't add up ~ to Reality.
g.
Anyone who does not understand or disagrees should study Jung.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 11:37 PM)
Why do we need to convince others of it?
Wow, do you really not get that is what DEMOCRACY is? That is what GOVERNMENT and CIVILIZATION is for?
To come to an agreement and compromise to promote society and benefit of the society and individual.
Without attempt at agreement and compromise, there is only Anarchy and war.
Based on current results, I would go so far as to say that you are failing miserably. We have anarchy and war. WITH a christian president in office no less. and a VOCAL minority keeping us there...
I still can't quite figure it out, but isn't the NUMERO UNO rule is "Thou shalt not kill"? Oops, guess that is number 6 depending on which version you read.
I don't believe there were any exceptions to that rule...
MM
Wow, do you really not get that is what DEMOCRACY is? That is what GOVERNMENT and CIVILIZATION is for?
To come to an agreement and compromise to promote society and benefit of the society and individual.
Without attempt at agreement and compromise, there is only Anarchy and war.
Based on current results, I would go so far as to say that you are failing miserably. We have anarchy and war. WITH a christian president in office no less. and a VOCAL minority keeping us there...
I still can't quite figure it out, but isn't the NUMERO UNO rule is "Thou shalt not kill"? Oops, guess that is number 6 depending on which version you read.
I don't believe there were any exceptions to that rule...
MM
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 06:40 AM)
I am just saying ALL RELIGION, (and certainly not me or my religion) has faith "in spite of" any facts or evidence. Obviously this guy does, and we know of many that do. But neither I nor the Catholic church are that way.
Did you mean "not all religion"
The Catholic Church believes communion wafers and wine become the flesh and blood of Christ.
All evidence says "no"
Do you believe it becomes the flesh and blood of Christ or not?
The church says it looks and tastes like wafers and wine but have faith it's really the flesh and blood of Christ.
Oh and I'm still going with what the Pope says instead of what you say.
Did you mean "not all religion"
The Catholic Church believes communion wafers and wine become the flesh and blood of Christ.
All evidence says "no"
Do you believe it becomes the flesh and blood of Christ or not?
The church says it looks and tastes like wafers and wine but have faith it's really the flesh and blood of Christ.
Oh and I'm still going with what the Pope says instead of what you say.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 14 2008, 02:34 AM)
Did you mean "not all religion"
Yes, exactly, obviously SOME religions do that, but then some of many different possible philosophies not "religious" can do the same. Just making the point that stereotype does not hold for all religion, and not mine.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 14 2008, 02:34 AM)
The Catholic Church believes communion wafers and wine become the flesh and blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation - we believe the wafers and wine are mystically changed into the flesh and blood of GOD, not a man named Jesus Christ, but his divine aspect.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 14 2008, 02:34 AM)
All evidence says "no"
Really? You have a God detector? You are going to be a VERY rich man. Because you see, the catholic church believes it maintains all of the same characteristics of its previous aspect, it just becomes God. Not Man, which would be cannibalism. Eating God is not cannibalism. Just throwing that in before you run off on that tangent.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 14 2008, 02:34 AM)
Do you believe it becomes the flesh and blood of Christ or not?
Yes I do. Because unlike you I do not have a God detector, so I can choose to believe it is exactly that. There is no harm in it, I do not understand why that bothers you so much.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 14 2008, 02:34 AM)
The church says it looks and tastes like wafers and wine but have faith it's really the flesh and blood of Christ.
Oh and I'm still going with what the Pope says instead of what you say.
Funny, where did the Pope say something different?
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 14 2008, 06:05 AM)
Really? You have a God detector?
Yes I do. Because unlike you I do not have a God detector, so I can choose to believe it is exactly that. There is no harm in it, I do not understand why that bothers you so much.
Funny, where did the Pope say something different?
No I do not have a God detector and you even admit niether do you.
Therefor all evidence is that it does not turn into something else.
Therefore you are believing something despite evidence to the contrary.
And the Pope says it's JC, well the 3-in-1 JC.
The harm is you claiming not to believe in somethinnd despite evidence to the contrary then claiming it's a lack of evidence.
On the one hand you have it has all the physical properties of wafers and wine.
On the other hand you have faith that it is not.
You choose to ignore the evidence and go with faith.
You keep claiming to not do this.
And "chooseing" to believe what you want is still a very strange concept to me.
Yes I do. Because unlike you I do not have a God detector, so I can choose to believe it is exactly that. There is no harm in it, I do not understand why that bothers you so much.
Funny, where did the Pope say something different?
No I do not have a God detector and you even admit niether do you.
Therefor all evidence is that it does not turn into something else.
Therefore you are believing something despite evidence to the contrary.
And the Pope says it's JC, well the 3-in-1 JC.
The harm is you claiming not to believe in somethinnd despite evidence to the contrary then claiming it's a lack of evidence.
On the one hand you have it has all the physical properties of wafers and wine.
On the other hand you have faith that it is not.
You choose to ignore the evidence and go with faith.
You keep claiming to not do this.
And "chooseing" to believe what you want is still a very strange concept to me.
QUOTE (deadbeat+Jul 13 2008, 01:54 PM)
to what, Anarchy?
This is the blind 'option', which will happen anyway, because you do not yet understand that it is you that enforces this 'anarchy' upon yourself. Politically, we already live in a state of 'anarchy', well disguised by a few men in suits, who have arranged the 'law' around themselves.
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
Failing that, Chlorpromazine!
g.
This is the blind 'option', which will happen anyway, because you do not yet understand that it is you that enforces this 'anarchy' upon yourself. Politically, we already live in a state of 'anarchy', well disguised by a few men in suits, who have arranged the 'law' around themselves.
QUOTE (buttershug+)
Anyone who does not understand or disagrees should study Jung.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
'Jung' is a good start, but he was far from 'certain' either. It is about us as individuals, and Jung knew this much.
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
g.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
'Jung' is a good start, but he was far from 'certain' either. It is about us as individuals, and Jung knew this much.
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
g.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 14 2008, 02:23 AM)
Anyone who does not understand or disagrees should study Jung.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
I essentially agree with you here but would only add that certainty itself is subject to differing degrees of. So where as I cannot be 100% certain I might be 99.9% certain of something (which is essentially reserved for blatant facts with overwhelming supporting evidence etc) Even if I assert I am certain of something I still reserve percentage for correction and necessary doubt.
Equally though and essentially those who profess 100% certainty of something with no supporting evidence or even logical plausibility are often people of faith.
In reality we tend not to think in percentages of course but just to illustrate.
Currently I am approx 93.2% a bit peckish.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
I essentially agree with you here but would only add that certainty itself is subject to differing degrees of. So where as I cannot be 100% certain I might be 99.9% certain of something (which is essentially reserved for blatant facts with overwhelming supporting evidence etc) Even if I assert I am certain of something I still reserve percentage for correction and necessary doubt.
Equally though and essentially those who profess 100% certainty of something with no supporting evidence or even logical plausibility are often people of faith.
In reality we tend not to think in percentages of course but just to illustrate.
Currently I am approx 93.2% a bit peckish.
deadbeat, Here's some info on transubstantiation:
Why religions expect you to believe preposterous things.
By Mano Singham
On a recent trip to Sri Lanka, I visited the mother of an old friend of mine, and the conversation turned to religion. She was a Protestant who had married a Catholic. She had thought about converting to Catholicism but in the end found it impossible to do so. She said that she found she could not accept three things that the Catholic Church required you to believe: transubstantiation, the infallibility of the Pope, and the assumption of Jesus' mother Mary (i.e., the belief that Mary did not die but was 'assumed' directly into heaven). From: http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms/news/why...osterous-things
Here's the rest of that fine article:
These things are pretty tough to believe. Transubstantiation alone is enough to give anyone pause. This doctrine asserts that when the priest during the communion service consecrates the bread and wine, the bread becomes the actual body of Jesus and the wine becomes his actual blood.
I have often wondered if, in their heart of hearts, Catholics actually believe this. It seems to me that if they did, it would be hard to avoid having the gag reflex that accompanies the thought of engaging in what are essentially cannibalistic practices. Yet millions of Catholics go through this ritual every week with seeming equanimity. Perhaps they don't really believe but convince themselves that they kinda, sorta do in order to not seem like heretics. Or maybe they just don't think about it.
But although this is a particularly striking example of the kinds of extraordinary things that religious people are expected to believe, it is not by itself more preposterous than believing that Jesus rose from the dead or that god ordered the sun to stand still during the battle of Jericho or that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed.
In fact, organized god-based religions sometimes seem to go out of their way to create difficult things to believe in. It seems like if you are a member of any organized god-based religion, you are expected to believe preposterous things. Abandoning reason and logic and evidence and science and accepting preposterous things purely on faith is deemed to be a virtuous act.
In Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass, the White Queen tells Alice that it is easy to believe impossible things. "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." She says her trick to believing in something that is wildly improbable is to simply draw a long breath and shut her eyes. Sounds a lot like praying.
Of course, many people find it hard to abandon reason and believe impossible things, and thus leave religion and become atheists or at least agnostics. Some modernist theologians have tried to counter this problem by stripping as much of the extreme forms of the supernatural as possible from religions to make it more acceptable intellectually. They argue that god is some mysterious essence, some life force that gives 'meaning' to our lives, a 'ground of our being', and so on, but is not a physical human-like entity that we communicate with or can expect to intervene in our lives. In this approach, it is attempted to free religion from all those difficult beliefs that are hard to accept.
Would such a trend make religion more acceptable to more people, largely freeing them from having to choose between religion and common sense? Superficially, one would think so but some research suggests otherwise. The success of religions seems to depend on having people believe difficult or impossible things. Paradoxically, the more difficult the belief is to accept intellectually and the more rigid rules with which it binds believers, the more successful the religion is in holding onto its adherents. "[T]he most successful religions, in terms of growth and maintenance of membership, are those with absolute, unwavering, strict, and enforced normative standards of behavior." (Study cited by Peggy Catron, Encountering Faith in the Classroom, Miriam Diamond (Ed.), 2008, p. 70.)
This may be why those religious doctrines that are really hard for a rational person to accept (fundamentalist Christianity and Islam, Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Judaism) don't seem to be in any danger of going extinct in the face of modern science that undermines their doctrines. They may even be experiencing growth, while it is the more open-minded liberal religious traditions that are in decline. It is as if people want their thinking to be bound and confined and that they fear intellectual freedom. It seems like a form of intellectual masochism.
Why is this? I don't really know. Perhaps it is because once you have convinced someone to believe an impossible idea as an entry point to membership in an organization, they have crossed a threshold that makes them accepting of all the other impossible ideas that come as part of that religious package. Since people pride themselves on being rational, getting them to accept something bizarre at an early age, like a virgin birth, means that they will then try to construct reasons why such a belief makes sense or suppress any questions and doubts. I find it interesting that believers in a god, instead of frankly saying, "Yes, it is irrational but I believe anyway", will go to great lengths to try and use reason and logic to convince others that their beliefs are rational when they are manifestly not.
Once you have got people to suspend their rational thinking in at least one part of their life, all the other seemingly small, but equally preposterous, beliefs that are required don't seem so hard to swallow. This may be why religious organizations carry out induction ceremonies for new members mostly when they are children, before their skepticism is fully developed and when the desire of children to join the organization of their parents is still strong.
It is also perhaps similar to how brutal hazing is sometimes used to bond people to fraternities or secret societies. Once you have overcome that kind of hurdle, it is emotionally harder to back out, to admit that one must have been crazy to ever do or believe such a thing. From: Same as above. (Emphasis mine.)
deadbeat, newguy and the rest of the religious kooks posting here, Do you begin to see how preposterous those totally irrational beliefs appear to others?
The preponderance of evidence for science and the complete lack of evidence and in fact disassociation from reality required to believe in religions, all support the atheist and agnostic positions advocated here, at http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms and at http://www.edge.org 
.
SCIENCE PREVAILS, RELIGION FAILS!
Why religions expect you to believe preposterous things.
By Mano Singham
On a recent trip to Sri Lanka, I visited the mother of an old friend of mine, and the conversation turned to religion. She was a Protestant who had married a Catholic. She had thought about converting to Catholicism but in the end found it impossible to do so. She said that she found she could not accept three things that the Catholic Church required you to believe: transubstantiation, the infallibility of the Pope, and the assumption of Jesus' mother Mary (i.e., the belief that Mary did not die but was 'assumed' directly into heaven). From: http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms/news/why...osterous-things
Here's the rest of that fine article:
These things are pretty tough to believe. Transubstantiation alone is enough to give anyone pause. This doctrine asserts that when the priest during the communion service consecrates the bread and wine, the bread becomes the actual body of Jesus and the wine becomes his actual blood.
I have often wondered if, in their heart of hearts, Catholics actually believe this. It seems to me that if they did, it would be hard to avoid having the gag reflex that accompanies the thought of engaging in what are essentially cannibalistic practices. Yet millions of Catholics go through this ritual every week with seeming equanimity. Perhaps they don't really believe but convince themselves that they kinda, sorta do in order to not seem like heretics. Or maybe they just don't think about it.
But although this is a particularly striking example of the kinds of extraordinary things that religious people are expected to believe, it is not by itself more preposterous than believing that Jesus rose from the dead or that god ordered the sun to stand still during the battle of Jericho or that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed.
In fact, organized god-based religions sometimes seem to go out of their way to create difficult things to believe in. It seems like if you are a member of any organized god-based religion, you are expected to believe preposterous things. Abandoning reason and logic and evidence and science and accepting preposterous things purely on faith is deemed to be a virtuous act.
In Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass, the White Queen tells Alice that it is easy to believe impossible things. "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." She says her trick to believing in something that is wildly improbable is to simply draw a long breath and shut her eyes. Sounds a lot like praying.
Of course, many people find it hard to abandon reason and believe impossible things, and thus leave religion and become atheists or at least agnostics. Some modernist theologians have tried to counter this problem by stripping as much of the extreme forms of the supernatural as possible from religions to make it more acceptable intellectually. They argue that god is some mysterious essence, some life force that gives 'meaning' to our lives, a 'ground of our being', and so on, but is not a physical human-like entity that we communicate with or can expect to intervene in our lives. In this approach, it is attempted to free religion from all those difficult beliefs that are hard to accept.
Would such a trend make religion more acceptable to more people, largely freeing them from having to choose between religion and common sense? Superficially, one would think so but some research suggests otherwise. The success of religions seems to depend on having people believe difficult or impossible things. Paradoxically, the more difficult the belief is to accept intellectually and the more rigid rules with which it binds believers, the more successful the religion is in holding onto its adherents. "[T]he most successful religions, in terms of growth and maintenance of membership, are those with absolute, unwavering, strict, and enforced normative standards of behavior." (Study cited by Peggy Catron, Encountering Faith in the Classroom, Miriam Diamond (Ed.), 2008, p. 70.)
This may be why those religious doctrines that are really hard for a rational person to accept (fundamentalist Christianity and Islam, Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Judaism) don't seem to be in any danger of going extinct in the face of modern science that undermines their doctrines. They may even be experiencing growth, while it is the more open-minded liberal religious traditions that are in decline. It is as if people want their thinking to be bound and confined and that they fear intellectual freedom. It seems like a form of intellectual masochism.
Why is this? I don't really know. Perhaps it is because once you have convinced someone to believe an impossible idea as an entry point to membership in an organization, they have crossed a threshold that makes them accepting of all the other impossible ideas that come as part of that religious package. Since people pride themselves on being rational, getting them to accept something bizarre at an early age, like a virgin birth, means that they will then try to construct reasons why such a belief makes sense or suppress any questions and doubts. I find it interesting that believers in a god, instead of frankly saying, "Yes, it is irrational but I believe anyway", will go to great lengths to try and use reason and logic to convince others that their beliefs are rational when they are manifestly not.
Once you have got people to suspend their rational thinking in at least one part of their life, all the other seemingly small, but equally preposterous, beliefs that are required don't seem so hard to swallow. This may be why religious organizations carry out induction ceremonies for new members mostly when they are children, before their skepticism is fully developed and when the desire of children to join the organization of their parents is still strong.
It is also perhaps similar to how brutal hazing is sometimes used to bond people to fraternities or secret societies. Once you have overcome that kind of hurdle, it is emotionally harder to back out, to admit that one must have been crazy to ever do or believe such a thing. From: Same as above. (Emphasis mine.)
deadbeat, newguy and the rest of the religious kooks posting here, Do you begin to see how preposterous those totally irrational beliefs appear to others?
The preponderance of evidence for science and the complete lack of evidence and in fact disassociation from reality required to believe in religions, all support the atheist and agnostic positions advocated here, at http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms and at http://www.edge.org .SCIENCE PREVAILS, RELIGION FAILS!
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 14 2008, 01:54 AM)
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
Failing that, Chlorpromazine!
g.
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Jul 14 2008, 12:54 PM)
QUOTE (buttershug+)
Anyone who does not understand or disagrees should study Jung.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
'Jung' is a good start, but he was far from 'certain' either. It is about us as individuals, and Jung knew this much.
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
g.
I meant the Jung part just about the "when you question others you are questioning yourself" part.
And the rest of your post is talking about people like me, you and SU.
I'm talking about people like Dad1, and bringeroflight.
They have pure certainty and even considering something else requires at least a minimum amount of uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
'Jung' is a good start, but he was far from 'certain' either. It is about us as individuals, and Jung knew this much.
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
g. [/QUOTE]
I meant the Jung part just about the "when you question others you are questioning yourself" part.
And the rest of your post is talking about people like me, you and SU.
I'm talking about people like Dad1, and bringeroflight.
They have pure certainty and even considering something else requires at least a minimum amount of uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
Yes, I know.
The 'black and white' is our indoctrination. This is how Human culture currently thinks. This is what schools teach us. We are then encouraged to choose 'good' over 'bad', or whatever the given culture's recommendation of that is. This is hardly any different all over the world, as it is how we have evolved...
But we are now moving into a Cosmological age, where this kind of over-simplicity is found wanting...
g.
I say certainty is an illusion and requires faith.
Some people need certainty and believe easily.
And those people don't check anything because checking involves uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
'Jung' is a good start, but he was far from 'certain' either. It is about us as individuals, and Jung knew this much.
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
g.
I meant the Jung part just about the "when you question others you are questioning yourself" part.
And the rest of your post is talking about people like me, you and SU.
I'm talking about people like Dad1, and bringeroflight.
They have pure certainty and even considering something else requires at least a minimum amount of uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
QUOTE (buttershug+Jul 15 2008, 03:37 AM)
'Jung' is a good start, but he was far from 'certain' either. It is about us as individuals, and Jung knew this much.
In an Infinite Space, for sure, we cannot ever explore all regions, and so an amount of 'uncertainty' will always remain. However, we can be 'relatively' certain of many aspects, by deduction through testing of intuitive reasoning. We must not forget that 'we' and all of our actions are aspects of this Cosmos. It is a never-ending journey of discovery...and thus the question will always remain...'What else is Infinite Space capable of?'
So, again, it is not a 'black and white' situation, but a whole spectrum of Cosmological motions, accumulating in self-awareness, as just one possibility.
g. [/QUOTE]
I meant the Jung part just about the "when you question others you are questioning yourself" part.
And the rest of your post is talking about people like me, you and SU.
I'm talking about people like Dad1, and bringeroflight.
They have pure certainty and even considering something else requires at least a minimum amount of uncertainty which they cannot tolerate.
Yes, I know.
The 'black and white' is our indoctrination. This is how Human culture currently thinks. This is what schools teach us. We are then encouraged to choose 'good' over 'bad', or whatever the given culture's recommendation of that is. This is hardly any different all over the world, as it is how we have evolved...
But we are now moving into a Cosmological age, where this kind of over-simplicity is found wanting...
g.
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