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sparhawk
I know that time and space is supposed to have started at the big bang. I also know that relativity ties time and space to spacetime, thus making it a single entity. However I really have a hard time grasping that concept.

I mean, if before the big bang no concept of time existed, than how can the big bang ever have occured? Igniting the universe would mean that there is a statechange of the system that caused the rapid acceleration we now call Big Bang, right? But how can something change it's state, when there is no time it can change in?





What's the point of the security code, if it is always 5254? LOL.
rpenner
The weak level of Captcha is sufficient to interfere with some bot-nets.

Your question about what time was like in the state before the big bang contains the assumption that there was something and time before the big bang. This is not in evidence.

Physics has enough problems trying to figure out what happened after the big bang. We build and test models and run them backwards at time until they become unreliable -- this happens before we get to the beginning of time, so we remain ignorant in many ways.
sparhawk
QUOTE (rpenner+May 3 2012, 02:49 PM)
Your question about what time was like in the state before the big bang contains the assumption that there was something and time before the big bang. This is not in evidence.

Well, that is the puzzling part. For something to occur, one should assume that there is SOMETHING that can occur. smile.gif If there was nothing, not even time, then how can it change it's state to become what we know now as our universe.

One would think that even quantum fluctuations need some time for it to taking place. I can imagine a quantum fluctuation as big as cerating our universe. Even though such an event is unlikely, if there is eternity, it can happen. But having nothing and then suddenly SOMETHING is beyond me, especially when it is claimed that not even time was there.

If time is just a kind of "counter" to keep track of state changes within a system, then time would always be there.
albert2
time is a shade of motion, of change
no change no shade
mik
QUOTE (sparhawk+May 3 2012, 02:31 PM)
I know that time and space is supposed to have started at the big bang. I also know that relativity ties time and space to spacetime, thus making it a single entity. However I really have a hard time grasping that concept.

I mean, if before the big bang no concept of time existed, than how can the big bang ever have occured? Igniting the universe would mean that there is a statechange of the system that caused the rapid acceleration we now call Big Bang, right? But how can something change it's state, when there is no time it can change in?





What's the point of the security code, if it is always 5254? LOL.

All science forums including this one have many threads on this question, and just about as many opinions as contributors.
Physics likes to say that time is that which clocks measure, but of course that is a meaningless tautology, and the ontology of what time is... is usually considered irrelevant metaphysics.

Same with space as an "entity" combined with time as an entity. We get the magical "fabric of spacetime" which "exists" only as a coordinate system, a model of the actual world, yet "spacetime" is said to be "curved by masses" as if it were an actual entity, not just a conceptual map.

It is clear to me that time is simply the concept of "duration" as objects/particles move through space (3-D volume,) from point A to point B. Movement "takes time."

Where everything came from "before the Bang" is another favorite theme in all science forums.
It is honest of science to say that we don't know, but I don't see how any reasonable person can believe that everything now in existence just appeared out of nothing. That is no different than belief in magic, it seems to me... or religion, believing that the universe was "created" out of nothing, like "god" pulled it out of "his" magic hat.

I go with an oscillating cosmology. If we find enough matter ("dark" or regular) gravity will eventually reverse its outward expansion and it will implode, igniting another "Bang/Crunch" cycle.
This model has no "beginning" or "end" of either time or the "stuff" in space. Beginning and ending are products of linear thinking, while an ongoing Bang/Crunch cycle is eternal, i.e., no beginning or ending.

My $.02 anyway.
brucep
QUOTE (mik+May 4 2012, 08:09 PM)
All science forums including this one have many threads on this question, and just about as many opinions as contributors.
Physics likes to say that time is that which clocks measure, but of course that is a meaningless tautology, and the ontology of what time is... is usually considered irrelevant metaphysics.

Same with space as an "entity" combined with time as an entity. We get the magical "fabric of spacetime" which "exists" only as a coordinate system, a model of the actual world, yet "spacetime" is said to be "curved by masses" as if it were an actual entity, not just a conceptual map.

It is clear to me that time is simply the concept of "duration" as objects/particles move through space (3-D volume,) from point A to point B. Movement "takes time."

Where everything came from "before the Bang" is another favorite theme in all science forums.
It is honest of science to say that we don't know, but I don't see how any reasonable person can believe that everything now in existence just appeared out of nothing. That is no different than belief in magic, it seems to me... or religion, believing that the universe was "created" out of nothing, like "god" pulled it out of "his" magic hat.

I go with an oscillating cosmology. If we find enough matter ("dark" or regular) gravity will eventually reverse its outward expansion and it will implode, igniting another "Bang/Crunch" cycle.
This model has no "beginning" or "end" of either time or the "stuff" in space. Beginning and ending are products of linear thinking, while an ongoing Bang/Crunch cycle is eternal, i.e., no beginning or ending.

My $.02 anyway.

Spacetime curvature was measured during the Gravity Probe B experiment so it isn't magic. For somebody who thinks he's so smart you sure are ignorant. Ignorance is a choice.
niels
QUOTE (mik+May 4 2012, 08:09 PM)



It is clear to me that time is simply the concept of "duration" as objects/particles move through space (3-D volume,) from point A to point B. Movement "takes time."


Well said and in line with my thinking, however

What IS an object ? IMO one need to be very succinct about how to conceptualize an object in order to get closer to the concept of time.

IMO an object best can be defind as something taking a space, something that be can be assigned a 3D and therefore assigned a shape. An object cannot be dimensionless in its proper frame.

Bohm, one of the greatest physicists and philosophers in physics, realized the deep paradoxes involved in defining an object, a particle.

Our physical world present to us as a changing 3D reality, (changing wholeness), and yet it is philosophically not possible to reify an object. Without an object at hand it is not possible fully to define a change and it is not possible fully to define a movement. And it is not possible to define the nature of time.

The deep paradox is that an object on one hand cannot be dimensionless and on the other hand that an object can be be thought infinitely smaller and smaller.

This imply that physical is being born in the process where infinite transforms into finite, that physical is born in the process where continuum is transformed into discreteness. Time is a derived function of this transformation.

My bet is that we will never come to an insight about how d in dT shall be understood.

my 2 cent


mik
QUOTE (brucep+May 4 2012, 10:11 PM)
Spacetime curvature was measured during the Gravity Probe B experiment so it isn't magic. For somebody who thinks he's so smart you sure are ignorant. Ignorance is a choice.

You didn't address the ontology of what curves.
I said:
"Same with space as an "entity" combined with time as an entity. We get the magical "fabric of spacetime" which "exists" only as a coordinate system, a model of the actual world, yet "spacetime" is said to be "curved by masses" as if it were an actual entity, not just a conceptual map.

What we empirically observe curving are the paths of objects (and light... with momentum acting like mass) around other objects (masses.)

Do you understand the difference between that and asserting that "spacetime curves" without considering "What is space?", "What is time?" or "What is the coalescence of space and time into unity?"
I don't "think" I'm so smart. My scores speak for themselves, and I care not a whit whether you (who are you to me?) believe it.
Hasmukh K. Tank
QUOTE (sparhawk+May 4 2012, 07:26 AM)
Well, that is the puzzling part. For something to occur, one should assume that there is SOMETHING that can occur. smile.gif If there was nothing, not even time, then how can it change it's state to become what we know now as our universe.


"Time" is actually a 'subjective' entity in my opinion.
I would have reminded this fact to Prof. Einstein, if I were present at that time!
'Space' is an objective entity; whereas 'time' is a 'subjective' entity; we subjectively perceive 'time'. But the 'rate' at which my time flows may be different from the rate at which your time may be flowing. So, to bring uniformity in our descriptions, we use an objective device known as 'clock' to communicate our experiences. Therefore, it is meaningless to speak that 'time' runs faster or slower; rather we should speak that a particular process, e.g. decay of a particular radio-active-material takes longer 'duration'. If we change both: the 'time-scale' as well as 'durations' of an event, then we can not measure anything accurately. So, we cannot describe a phenomenon accurately. So, in my opinion, just as we have agreed upon the definition of a meter: the bar kept in Paris-musium, at NTP, we should agree upon a definition of 'time' e.g. half-life of a radio-active substance at NTP, and gravitational-fieldstrength G M /R where M is mass of the earth and R radius of the earth. In short we need to 'standardise' or 'absolutize' the 'Relativity Theory' if we wish to progress faster. The starter of this page has to write this page after more than a century of Special-Relativity, because we have not 'standardized' and 'absolutized' 'distance' and 'time'. What do you think, dear reader?!
Dear Friends,
In my opinion, we are able to perceive 'time', because our brain has 'memory'.
Supposing, we were not having any memory, then there were no perception of time.
With the help of 'memory' we are able to compare previous perception with the new perception. So, we are able to recognize a pattern; then we are able to predict an event; and then we learn to control events to some extent.
'Time' is a 'subjective' entity, the 'time' that our clocks show are for bringing regularity in the 'subjective' perceptions of 'time' of all the members of the society.
Einstein talked about 'stretching' of 'time'; 'time-dilation'. He should have used a term 'duration', and then told that 'duration' of a process, say decay of a particle, gets stretched. Isn't it?
More details can be found at:
http://sites.google.com/site/theultimaterealitysite
Sub-page-titled: Holistic Theory of Everything
sparhawk
QUOTE
Same with space as an "entity" combined with time as an entity. We get the magical "fabric of spacetime" which "exists" only as a coordinate system, a model of the actual world, yet "spacetime" is said to be "curved by masses" as if it were an actual entity, not just a conceptual map.


Well, only the effects can be measured. So it wouldn't really matter if energy is curved or that space we assume the energy to be contained in. The measurement would be the same, it's just a matter of interpretation.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Same with space as an "entity" combined with time as an entity. We get the magical "fabric of spacetime" which "exists" only as a coordinate system, a model of the actual world, yet "spacetime" is said to be "curved by masses" as if it were an actual entity, not just a conceptual map.


Well, only the effects can be measured. So it wouldn't really matter if energy is curved or that space we assume the energy to be contained in. The measurement would be the same, it's just a matter of interpretation.

It is clear to me that time is simply the concept of "duration" as objects/particles  move through space (3-D volume,) from point A to point B. Movement "takes time."


How can you talk of "duration" as this is also a unit of time? I think the concept of spacetime acutally makes sense, because a distance doesn't really make sense without time.

QUOTE
I go with an oscillating cosmology. If we find enough matter ("dark" or regular) gravity will eventually reverse its outward expansion and it will implode, igniting another "Bang/Crunch" cycle.


That's a similar view that I also hold. I can accept some kind of quantum energy field that is constantly fluctuating and thus creates universes like ours as a result. This would mean that our universe wouldn't be something special (except to us of course smile.gif ) and also that there might be a huge number of them existing nar to each other.
waitedavid137
QUOTE (sparhawk+May 3 2012, 07:31 AM)
I know that time and space is supposed to have started at the big bang. I also know that relativity ties time and space to spacetime, thus making it a single entity. However I really have a hard time grasping that concept.

I mean, if before the big bang no concept of time existed, than how can the big bang ever have occurred? Igniting the universe would mean that there is a statechange of the system that caused the rapid acceleration we now call Big Bang, right? But how can something change it's state, when there is no time it can change in?





What's the point of the security code, if it is always 5254? LOL.

Whether time before the big bang is a sensible question or what things were like or even if the were makes that a sensible question is not universally agreed upon. Its not like there is a law of physics saying that there was no time or that there was so you're really asking a question that no one has a definitive answer on. It may not be a meaningful question to ask what was before the big bang in the same way as asking what did you think about before you were born. Some models suggest this. But even proponents of that I have never seen say this is definitely how things are.
mik
QUOTE (sparhawk+May 7 2012, 01:59 PM)

Well, only the effects can be measured. So it wouldn't really matter if energy is curved or that space we assume the energy to be contained in. The measurement would be the same, it's just a matter of interpretation.



How can you talk of "duration" as this is also a unit of time? I think the concept of spacetime acutally makes sense, because a distance doesn't really make sense without time.



That's a similar view that I also hold. I can accept some kind of quantum energy field that is constantly fluctuating and thus creates universes like ours as a result. This would mean that our universe wouldn't be something special (except to us of course smile.gif ) and also that there might be a huge number of them existing nar to each other.

Me:
"Same with space as an "entity" combined with time as an entity. We get the magical "fabric of spacetime" which "exists" only as a coordinate system, a model of the actual world, yet "spacetime" is said to be "curved by masses" as if it were an actual entity, not just a conceptual map."
You:
"Well, only the effects can be measured. So it wouldn't really matter if energy is curved or that space we assume the energy to be contained in. The measurement would be the same, it's just a matter of interpretation."

Direct question: How do you see space as anything but 3-D volume? "Stuff"... energy and matter... exist in and moves through space (not an entity but empty volume.) The "moving through space" part requires "time", also not a real entity.

You ask:
"How can you talk of "duration" as this is also a unit of time? I think the concept of spacetime acutally makes sense, because a distance doesn't really make sense without time."

"Units of time" are conventions based on clocks. Everything is moving. It all "takes time' whether clocks are "measuring it" or not.

A distance, like between Sun and Earth, makes perfect sense and it doesn't change with how it is measured. The distance is 8+ light minutes (there is your "time") which equals about 93 million miles with or without "time."

sonoran sundown
QUOTE (sparhawk+May 3 2012, 02:31 PM)
I know that time and space is supposed to have started at the big bang. I also know that relativity ties time and space to spacetime, thus making it a single entity. However I really have a hard time grasping that concept.

I mean, if before the big bang no concept of time existed, than how can the big bang ever have occured? Igniting the universe would mean that there is a statechange of the system that caused the rapid acceleration we now call Big Bang, right? But how can something change it's state, when there is no time it can change in?



IMO, time is a property of matter, and since matter did not come out of the BB, time did not exist then.

Space is supposed to have come out of the BB, but I cannot believe that. The BB claims there was nothing - not even space, b4 the BB, but I cannot believe that either. The BBT says the BB emptied out into a so-called "great Void" (which our widdle minds cannot imagine), and I can't believe that either.

I can believe that the BB blew up (or not) into a space tightly packed with negative particles and the energy of it pushed or was sucked in by the negative mass particles and in so doing, the particles were transformed into positive mass electrons that until the em wave passed through, at which point the electron reverted back and released 2 photons, thus creating the light of the universe.

You are right in thinking there is no real spacetime - Einstein never said that. He said it was a diagram, a math construct used to track objects through space and time.

But your best thinking is in the logic with which you argue correctly aout the BB not having occurred if time did not exist. Of course, you are correct, but time did not exist then and light was able to move at the speeds required to disperse the elements across the cosmos. It is all posted in another topic in this forum. Please read it.
AKAIS@cox.net
I think their is a universal time. I think the earlier civilizations understood this like the Maya, I second for me is the same here on Earth now as it is on another planet, 9 million years in future or 9 million years in past.
Maxila
QUOTE (sparhawk+May 7 2012, 08:59 AM)

How can you talk of "duration" as this is also a unit of time? I think the concept of spacetime acutally makes sense, because a distance doesn't really make sense without time.



I'm not sure what kind of detail your looking for in an answer to your question; however if you're just looking for basic physical connections you're on the right track with the thought above.

Let's start what you said, "I think the concept of spacetime acutally makes sense, because a distance doesn't really make sense without time." In every empirical way (our observable reality) time is coincident with a change of position in space, and a change of position in space is coincident with a change in time.

Duration generally "feels" different than that; however time is what we use to differentiate events which inherently are a change in a state, or simply change. Again empirically a change requires a change of position, and any change of position is relative to distance (in space). That relative relationship of a change in position and distance (space) is what we can account for as time.

Getting more complex we have the mathematical relationship of distance, or more accurately the geometry of space, relative to time, which we now know is a malleable relationship. It's the mathematical models that accurately explain the characteristics of this relative relationship of space and time and their malleability, in what is commonly described as space-time.

Essentially it's a geometric model for the three spatial coordinates of Euclidean space (3D space) and time. Because a time coordinate is additive to three dimensions this is often referred to as 4D space or again space-time. This link offers more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Maxila

synthsin75
QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 7 2012, 10:10 AM)
In every empirical way (our observable reality) time is coincident with a change of position in space, and a change of position in space is coincident with a change in time.

Quit spamming this nonsense.
Maxila
QUOTE (synthsin75+Jun 7 2012, 07:26 PM)
Quit spamming this nonsense.

It's a fact, Bryan Green has said it (he's a professor of physics a Columbia U.), in the "Elegant Universe" (The episodes may still be on YouTube), and in some form I have seen rpenner say it a post also.

[@rpenner I have no idea what post, if I am mistaken please correct me.]

I really wish you would stop speaking in definitive terms on things you know nothing about as if you did.

I normally won't waste any effort replying to you however; this was for the benefit of Superhawk who might have mistakenly thought you spoke from knowledge rather than delusional arrogance. Don't hold your breath waiting for me to respond to whatever nonsense you retort with. You know you won't be able to stop yourself, but I have no problem ignoring your stupidity.

Maxila

brucep
QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 8 2012, 03:51 AM)
It's a fact, Bryan Green has said it (he's a professor of physics a Columbia U.), in the "Elegant Universe" (The episodes may still be on YouTube), and in some form I have seen rpenner say it a post also.

[@rpenner I have no idea what post, if I am mistaken please correct me.]

I really wish you would stop speaking in definitive terms on things you know nothing about as if you did.

I normally won't waste any effort replying to you however; this was for the benefit of Superhawk who might have mistakenly thought you spoke from knowledge rather than delusional arrogance. Don't hold your breath waiting for me to respond to whatever nonsense you retort with. You know you won't be able to stop yourself, but I have no problem ignoring your stupidity.

Maxila

At least get his name right. Brian Greene. Don't think it's no big thing.
AlexG
No, what Greene said was that a difference in location magnifies relative movement and results in a different 'now'.

Don't watch youtube, read the actual book.
Maxila
QUOTE (brucep+Jun 8 2012, 01:28 AM)
At least get his name right. Brian Greene. Don't think it's no big thing.



I realized I spelled it wrong too late to correct and edit the post. For the record I acknowledge it should have been typed "Brian Greene".
Maxila
QUOTE (AlexG+Jun 8 2012, 01:45 AM)
No, what Greene said was that a difference in location  magnifies relative movement and results in a different 'now'.

It was very specific what he said on the show, and it wasn't in the context you are referring to in the book.

QUOTE
Don't watch youtube, read the actual book.


PBS documentary or book, I have to believe if he is willing to say it and be associated with it in a public media, he believes it to be a valid statement. He can go into greater detail and specifics in his book; however what you referred to is not similar or of the same context to the statement I was referring. *note: [I've assumed you weren't merely trying to be derogatory and suggest I don't read books on physics]

Also, I am about 90% certain rpenner said something similar in a post a while back. Because I do have a some doubt as to my recollection, I asked rpenner to correct me if I am mistaken? Who knows if he will read it, or reply? Unfortunately he makes way too many posts to sift through (I attempted to search for it).

Remember I was referring to the relationship of time and a change in position in only an empirical sense.

(FYI I watched it on PBS not YouTube).

Maxilla
synthsin75
QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 7 2012, 09:51 PM)
It's a fact, Bryan Green has said it (he's a professor of physics a Columbia U.), in the "Elegant Universe" (The episodes may still be on YouTube), and in some form I have seen rpenner say it a post also.

[@rpenner I have no idea what post, if I am mistaken please correct me.]

Brain Greene said something for TV which was meant to be vaguely understood by laymen. You cannot pretend to understand the actuality on that alone. I've told you before that you should really read the book before making such statements the crux of an argument. You can't hope to argue a point you only know as superficially as a TV program would allow.


QUOTE
I really wish you would stop speaking in definitive terms on things you know nothing about as if you did.

I normally won't waste any effort replying to you however; this was for the benefit of Superhawk who might have mistakenly thought you spoke from knowledge rather than delusional arrogance. Don't hold your breath waiting for me to respond to whatever nonsense you retort with. You know you won't be able to stop yourself, but I have no problem ignoring your stupidity.

Maxila


I do speak from knowledge, as I have actually read that particular Brain Greene book and know more about what he could only hope to allude to in a brief TV program. Quite aside from the fact that I have fully refuted this notion of yours here before. There are physical changes that cannot be defined in terms of "change of position".

sonoran sundown
QUOTE (AKAIS@cox.net+Jun 7 2012, 03:31 PM)
I think their is a universal time. I think the earlier civilizations understood this like the Maya, I second for me is the same here on Earth now as it is on another planet, 9 million years in future or 9 million years in past.

Read my essay. I cite one instance that can be thought of as "universal time" but it's not what you think.
Robittybob1
QUOTE (sonoran sundown+Jun 9 2012, 06:59 AM)
Read my essay. I cite one instance that can be thought of as "universal time" but it's not what you think.

Where is your essay?
sonoran sundown
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Jun 9 2012, 07:17 AM)
Where is your essay?



NO-MATH ESSAYS IN THEORETICAL PHYSICS

By Thomas Garcia

Copyright 1996/Revised 2012/All Rights Reserved


ESSAY ONE: The Time and Motion Relationship

When asked about the nature of time, I can answer only in terms of my own frame of reference - that is, as a student of human group interactions and as an activist in the American sociopolitical arena, and with a layman’s whetted interest in science and an analytical eye out for straight thinking in the formulation of reasonable thought.
Where it concerns time theory, my candid inquiries have led me to propose that the passage of time varies at a rate set inversely proportional to the state of motion of discrete matter in space, and therefore time to me is a distinct property of matter. I believe this very simple time and motion relationship, which I defend with logical arguments, is at least as relevant to science today as is the incredible concept of Albert Einstein’s curved Space-Time Continuum. I hope to convince the reader of the validity of my claim by the end of this essay.
It is obvious to me that while we’ve known for quite some time now the rate of the passage of time depends on the speed of objects, we have not used this information as well as we should have. That may be simply because we are continually being led and pushed into considering ever more-exotic and quite complicated concepts that purport to explain, at least to some extent, the riddles of light, energy, motion, and even space. Consequently, we have not put as much importance as we should have into what we do know about time.
That may well be the reason why, after all the centuries of people asking each other “Just what is time?”, we have progressed essentially no farther in Theoretical Physics than Albert Einstein’s standpoint of time and space interdependence and his premise that they are both flexible and dependent upon the state of motion of an observer.
Indeed, it is difficult to figure out time. We cannot get beyond Dr. Einstein’s premise of time-space interdependence because it bonds time and space as partners absolutely and forever, where one cannot exist without the other. The result of that is the creation of a virtual “blind alley” from which there seems to be nowhere else to go because the premise discourages any in-depth consideration of the idea that there may be more relevance to time other than our usual understanding of it as simply the Siamese twin of space and not much else than that.
Therefore, when we think about time, it is usually as a “continuum” or “fabric” in our universe in which all things exist equally subject to the “force” of time’s irresistible and unwavering flow. However, such a concept requires time to have or to be a force of its own - it requires that time must either be energy or must contain energy.
Subsequently, we are led to another blind alley where we find we cannot explain certain “loose ends” or apparent natural contradictions. For example, time must contain energy in order for it to be a force that is imposed onto objects as well as onto space. Although most people believe that time has such energy, it remains a belief without substance, based only on the effect and not the cause of it.
In order to support the idea of the existence of a time and space continuum, scientists have had to come up with the notion that there must be such things as time and space so-called “fluctuations” in the form of “time warps,” “curved space,” “dilations,” and so forth.
For many of us, though, it is just too hard to successfully imagine the warping of time and the curving of boundless space in any way other than as the literary trick used in science fiction stories as a relatively quick and easy way to travel around the universe.
It is a task too difficult for us because we are unable to reasonably extend the concept of ordinary space far enough to reconcile in our inquiring minds how it could be that empty space can “do”, “act”, or “perform” any sort of physical act. For scientists to take ideas from science fiction or nature’s effects is a risky adventure as it can too easily become a case of the tail wagging the dog, as it were.
“Absolute space” is commonly defined as: “…physical space independent of whatever occupies it.” Of course, time passes and matter moves, but can we really bestow to empty space the capacity to actually do something? And if space could do something, how would we ever know it? Even so, if we wish to (perhaps only to resolve these nagging questions), we can imagine the concept of time being something quite separate and independent indeed from the concept of space, contrary to what most scientists believe today. I shall later herein discuss just how this may be done.
In a common textbook example of Special Relativity theory, two observers - one of whom is seated inside a moving passenger train while the other is positioned outside as the train goes by – take accurate measurements with their synchronized clocks of the amount of time it takes light to travel from a ceiling lamp to the floor of the train car. The experiment proves (in a surprising conclusion) that time passes slower for the observer riding on the train, but only in comparison to the rate of the passage of time for the other observer standing alongside the railroad tracks. That doesn’t seem right, how can an experiment show such a thing, and why does it apply only to the two observers? It does that by having the only relevant difference between the two observers being that they are not moving at the same speed with respect to each other.
From the viewpoint of the outside observer who took his measurement as the train went by, the light traveled “distance x” in moving from the ceiling to the floor, plus “distance y,” which is the distance the train moved in the time it took for the light to travel to the floor of the car. For him, a line tracing the path of a single light particle as it fell would show a diagonal line of travel drawn downward but curving in the direction of the train’s movement. For the passenger, the light fell plumb downward from the ceiling light bulb to the floor of the train, but for the outside observer, the same light did not fall straight downward.
For him, the falling light curved as it fell simply because the train was moving faster than he was as it passed by. For the observer in the train, however, the light particle traveled only the “distance x” because the falling light was moving down but not moving past her since she was on the same train as the light she measured. For the train rider, then, a line drawn based on her observation would be a vertical line because she is moving along inside the train with the photon as it falls. Thus, there is no “distance y” involved in her measurement.
In comparing the length of the two lines, the diagonal curved line is longer, meaning that it had to have taken more time for the light to reach the floor, so far as the stationary observer is concerned, but less time than that as it pertains to the measurements of the train passenger observer.
If for the stationary observer the event took, e.g., two seconds to occur by his clock, and if for the train passenger it took, say, only one second to occur by her clock, it means that in this bilateral relationship, time passed for the stationary observer at twice the rate that the train passenger underwent, and therefore he aged faster, or more, than the passenger in the moving train. This experiment clearly illustrates the time and motion relationship of inverse proportionality in that the observer moving relatively faster than the other observer accrued and underwent a slower time rate.
Here is an instance where we have obtained two accurate but different time measurements of the same event; yet, this hardly seems possible. The speed of light is constant; therefore, it cannot be that which changed and caused the differences in the time measurements of the two observers. If the speed of light did vary in order to accommodate the situation, that would explain the time differences and we could then say that the speed of light “adjusted” to that particular situation, and then it would not be necessary for time and space to warp or curve.
If it was the case that the speed of light varied instead of the rate of the passage of time (as opposed to just the passage of time), then time could be a force of the universe, and if that was so, it seems all objects in the universe should age at the same rate. However, we would still need to wrestle with the same question as with space, e.g., how could time have the energy required for it to be a force?
However, if it cannot be the case that the speed of light varied during the experiment, it seems then that the reason for the time differences must indeed have to do with the fact that the measurements were made while each observer was in a different state of motion relative to the other. Thus, the rate of time varied for each observer inversely proportional to their particular state of motion. Up to this point, many already agree with the latter case, as we shall see below.
Within the context of Einstein’s time-space interdependence premise, it is said that both time and space must at some unknown point warp, fold, flex, bend, dilate, or curve so as to reconcile the differences in the rates of the passage of time as measured by our two observers. The premise is a conclusion necessarily adopted to explain the time differences, I believe, since we believe the speed of light does not vary in the vacuum of space. Beyond that context, however, it is extremely difficult if at all possible to apply such physical terms to time and space because neither can be so easily studied as can discrete objects.
If we think that the rate of the passage of time (i.e., the rate of aging) is universal - that is to say, for those who think that time is, or is part of, a medium or “continuum” in which all things are held equally captive in time - and are thus held equally subject to its immutable flow - then it becomes necessary indeed to invent such terms as time and space “warps” and imbue space and time with forces impossible to confirm. The necessity arises, I think, when we are confronted with such natural inconsistencies of the type shown in the experiment above and we cannot come up with better explanations for them.
For the rest of us, however, if we can agree that in our experiment above the rate of the passage of time varies for the observers due to the difference in the states of motion between them, it becomes easier for us then to think that the reason for the time differences is because each observer measured the event from within a time rate corresponding to his and her own state of motion.
Remember that we said both measurements in our train example are accurate and so, essentially, the only difference in the situation between the observers is that one is moving faster than the other at the instant they each measure the light traveling from the ceiling to the floor inside the train car. They are both moving in space along with planet Earth, but on the planet, the train has a different state of motion.
The stationary observer is at constant velocity with respect to the earth, but the train passenger is not because while the train has all the motions imposed upon it by the moving planet, it also has the added motion, as it moves along the tracks, of moving with respect to the earth. This experiment has also been explained by using a spaceship in place of a train, but I think it is more easily understood using the surface of the planet as the reference base.
In the resolution to the so-called Twin Paradox (another common textbook example), it is proposed that a twin who goes off in a spaceship for a few years will return to greet a much older twin brother or sister because Nature apparently grants a slower time rate to the accelerating space traveler. That conclusion has prompted many to work out mathematical calculations which purportedly show how that happens. However, of the many proposed resolutions to this paradox, not one explains why nature should grant different time rates to moving objects, as I’ve done herein.
The Twin Paradox is just another example where there has been for widespread agreement for some time now that the time rates of discrete objects are set inversely proportional to their states of motion, although I have found no one willing to propose that as a fact. Although questions abound, I have found very little has been written about time, in fact. Centuries back, the argument was whether time passes in a continuous flow or in brief spurts. The issue was not resolved then and it has been forgotten today, perhaps rightly so if it is as unimportant an issue as it seems.
If someone has lately argued time concepts in print, I’ve missed them and thus felt compelled to poke further into what to me seems quite an important discovery about time. I’ve come to believe that at any time when it seems Nature simply and freely “grants” us something, we should be wary of accepting her “gift” too readily because in so doing we could miss a good clue. Greek philosopher/scientist Aristotle argued that all heavenly objects traveled around the earth because it was in their nature to do so. That had a ring of logic to it then, and even though apparently no better argument was offered as to why it was in their nature to do so, many accepted the proposition, probably because then no exception to it could be observed, or perhaps because it just suited them to accept it. We know now that under that “logic,” there couldn’t have been any exceptions, as today heavenly bodies other than our moon still seem to revolve pell-mell around the earth.
We may have acted too eagerly then in accepting Aristotle’s logic as if the question of “why” is of little importance to our insatiable thirst for knowledge. Yet, it would be just as nice for us to be able to think that we can know why nature should choose one observer over another, as in our examples above, as it would be for us to be able to imagine the quite-unimaginable physical feat of the “warping” or “curving” of time and space, as Modern Physics so argues today.
Because I believe our universe is one of cause and effect and that the “why” of any effect is the cause of it, I felt there had to be a reason why Nature would “gift” one observer over the other with a slower time rate. After long deliberations, I was able to develop the following hypothesis about time.
If we agree that an object has a longer life-span (due to a slower time rate) than another similar object moving at a slower speed, then we are saying that for any discrete object time passes at a rate of inverse proportion to its state of motion. If that is so, then the aging rate of the twin and the spaceship would be slower than on earth at any instant whenever the spaceship’s speed would become higher in relation to the earth’s state of motion in space, rather than at some arbitrary or unknown point in time and space. Thus, upon returning to earth, the traveling twin will have aged less as far as the earthbound twin and all the rest of the people on earth are concerned, simply because the spaceship would have to accelerate faster than the earth’s state of motion in order to leave it and then return.
Yet another reason why this idea has not been further developed (that time rates vary as a function of the state of motion of matter in space) may be due to another Relativity postulate which states that motion is meaningful only between two bodies moving relatively to each other. Since the universe is expanding, all observable matter in it must be in motion; therefore, we cannot locate a stationary point in the universe from which to measure the motion of a single body. Any and all of our measurements of motion may only be obtained by comparison to the relative motion and position of other objects.
Nevertheless, is not Einstein’s other premise (noted on page one in the third paragraph) that time and space are dependent on the state of motion of an observer - simply the one exception where motion is meaningful to something other than the relative motion of two bodies? The premise of the paragraph above holds true when we wish to measure the motion of objects in space because that requires other bodies to enable us to compare their motions.
Still, my contention that motion is meaningful to something other than just the motion of two bodies, where time is dependent on the state of motion of objects, is also relevant and holds true to measurements taken by observers whose states of motion differ, as they do in our moving-train and space-traveler-twin experiments. We have already noted above that it is the difference in the states of motion of the observers that yields consequential outcomes in measurements of time.
Some may infer from the above that the time rates of matter vary because observers may by their presence or some other method, cause them to do so. From there, it would be easy to argue that time rates vary only when and if there are observers around to measure them. Yet, why wouldn’t the rate of the passage of time simply depend upon the state of motion of discrete objects, sans observers?
The answer is, of course it does. If we can agree a priori that the diagonal line in our moving-train example is a longer line, whether or not we ourselves actually trace the vertical and curving diagonal fall of the light particle, then we can agree that the differences in the time measurements do not occur only because someone is there to make the measurements any more than the sunrise depends on someone being there to observe it.
Can we not also validly deduce from all of the above that the rate of the passage of time for an object depends on that object’s state of motion, and not simply on the fact that two or more bodies are moving relatively to each other? This is a relevant argument because, if it were true in all cases that motion is important only between two bodies, it could be argued then that time rates vary only when bodies in relative proximity move at relatively different speeds, because in such cases they will affect each other’s states of motion and thus each other’s time rates as well, at certain distances from each other.
However, that interpretation has to do with the spatial positioning of bodies and that does indeed require the involvement of both time and space in an interdependent relationship, as Einstein correctly noted.
If it is true instead, though, that time alone - sans space - is dependent on motion, then the rate of the passage of time for an object depends at any given moment upon the current state of motion in space of that single object, regardless of the state of motion or spatial size and position of any other object (except, of course, when the condition of any nearby body is such that it may affect our object’s state of motion).
A small point, admittedly so, but a relevant one nevertheless because, after all, how can space be dependent on motion? Also, if we accept the latter of the two arguments above as true, and if the reader is in agreement with my arguments so far in this essay, then our goal of freeing the concept of time from its binding ties to the concept of space is therefore achieved.
So now space remains a property of the universe, but time must be recognized as an essential property of all positive matter (+matter), and we should understand that the rate of the passage of time for any discrete object depends on the state of motion of that particular discrete object, and not necessarily upon an interdependent relationship with space.
We can say, if we wish to, and because we can’t prove otherwise at the moment, that if time rates accrue to objects in inverse proportion to their states of motion, there must be universal time rates that apply to the varying levels of motion of similar discrete objects in space. That is to say, at the speed of planet Earth in the universe (as it revolves around the Sun, and as the Sun revolves around the galaxy, and as our galaxy races through space), there is within the universe a specific time rate which accrues for the particular state of motion of the earth, and for any similar object which is in the same state of motion, irrespective of their location within the universe.
As the Sun moves through space slower or faster than Earth, for example, its time rate varies from Earth’s time rate due to the Sun’s particular state of motion in space. And if another similar star in another similar galaxy far away moves through the universe in a state of motion similar to our sun, its time rate should be about the same as the time rate of our star, in accordance with Einstein’s Relativity Principle that natural law is the same throughout the universe. Only in this sense may the property of time be considered a universal imposition of the so-called “force” of the “fabric” of time and space.
If motion is necessary for an object to have the property of time, it means time is dependent upon motion, and if the time rate of an object varies in inverse proportion to its state of motion, then the rate of the passage of time must increase as an object’s state of motion slows and vice-versa. Therefore, as an object’s time rate increases, its “lifetime” is “used up” (relatively) sooner. This means that the near-absence of motion in matter is likely another natural boundary of our universe, like the near-speed of light and the near-Absolute zero temperature.
There are natural boundaries set for ordinary matter and when an object comes too near those limits, it may change into another form that can exist beyond those limits, in accordance with conservation of energy laws, but if it no longer has energy, it can have no positive mass and thus no property of time.
It is necessary, I’m sure, to clarify my meaning of the phrase, “state of motion,” as I use it herein so often: When we speak of an object’s state of motion, we usually refer to the velocity or momentum of bodies; yet, there is always motion within all objects, including molecular kinetic energy activity in gases, molecular and atomic vibrations in matter, the motion of particles through space and matter, and also the “outward” motion of matter resulting from the BB and the continuing expansion of the universe.
Any and all motions of discrete matter are included in the phrase referred to above. In fact, we must argue there is nothing visible in our universe that is totally motionless, except perhaps, space. After all, how could empty space have any motion to it if motion - and thus time - can accrue only to objects of matter, while transparent space lacks +mass/energy? There is a way to resolve that paradox, and I offer it in my next essay, The Ether Found.
There exists at least one new area of thought which we have yet to discuss that includes more about the time and motion relationship. We have known for a long time now that the universe is in a state of expansion, but scientists recently discovered and confirmed that galaxies in the outer reaches of space are moving away from us at much faster speeds than more local ones, while maintaining their positions relative to each other. If the galaxies were moving outward from us through space, the distances between them would be expected to change and we could observe the changes.
The discovery means the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate, rather than at a slowing or at a steady rate, as had been previously surmised. Furthermore, it raises the question, “How is it possible in a globular universal expansion for the far-out galaxies to maintain unchanging coordinates as they gain distance from us?” The more acceptable answer, even though a more incredible one, is that they are not moving as a picture on a balloon expands, but rather it is space itself that is expanding! More about this in Essay II!
END OF ESSAY I


How to get more essays:

I have undertaken to develop a series of these essays solely to clarify the questions in my mind about the universe. I offer them to scientists and science fans alike in the hope they will encourage many to question that which others try to convince us is the reality in which we exist. This first Essay is free and available here to anyone and may be reproduced or distributed in its entirety without any change(s) and including all references.
Subsequent essays will not be free but will be available hopefully within three months of each other. I expect this series to contain a total of eight to twelve essays offering more explanations related to other issues in physics that need review and revision and which can be used to stump your teachers and professors or to just agree or disagree with, and for that purpose I welcome any discussion from readers via email sent to me at:
Lvlus_tx@yahoo.com

AlexG
A large family size word salad, all of which is based on what you find credible or incredible.
Ewol
Sonoran
Nice essay I can see where its going as I am already there.
Put simply time is the most, or second most after God, important thing in the universe for without it there would be no universe.
I tried to explain in another thread but with little success.
sonoran sundown
QUOTE (AKAIS@cox.net+Jun 7 2012, 03:31 PM)
I think their is a universal time. I think the earlier civilizations understood this like the Maya, I second for me is the same here on Earth now as it is on another planet, 9 million years in future or 9 million years in past.

We have all thought that way because we are taught that in schools. I've found most people in science think that too. The facts show otherwise, however.

Please read my essay about time here:

http://nmathphysics.wordpress.com

Comments pro or con are welcome.
sonoran sundown
QUOTE (AlexG+Jun 9 2012, 08:22 AM)
A large family size word salad, all of which is based on what you find credible or incredible.

If you are referring to my post, I agree it is a long read, but it is necessarily long because it is not a simple matter to try to change minds so long ago made up. But is not that what this forum is supposed to be about?

1. Do you disagree with one posit or all of them?

2. Whichever, let us debate the issues here. I stand ready to be convinced otherwise through logical discourse. I hope to convince you to change your mind, though, so offer up your best arguments against what you don't like.

3. Do you have alternative ideas that we may discuss here?

4. Not reading new ideas is not a basis for debate.
sonoran sundown
QUOTE (Adalee+Jun 11 2012, 08:43 AM)
Hi friends,
Really a nice discussion is done by you.Actually ,i have done the physics in the High-school, But i have very interest in the physics. I remembers also when i read this article . Really a nice concept is done by you. I hope to you to present this type of the post in the future also.
Thanks for sharing the information .

Thank you, Adalee, I think.
Larryde2003
There is a possibility that before our universe was created Time and space may have existed in a different dimension. Thus, change could have been possible.
Bryslon
QUOTE (sparhawk+May 3 2012, 02:31 PM)
I know that time and space is supposed to have started at the big bang. I also know that relativity ties time and space to spacetime, thus making it a single entity. However I really have a hard time grasping that concept.

I mean, if before the big bang no concept of time existed, than how can the big bang ever have occured? Igniting the universe would mean that there is a statechange of the system that caused the rapid acceleration we now call Big Bang, right? But how can something change it's state, when there is no time it can change in?





What's the point of the security code, if it is always 5254? LOL.

Uhrm. OK imagine yourself that the whole thing is "shaking" regardless of time and space. So we have nothing, but the thing is vibrating. Endlessly. Simply because of that, the time and space is created out of nothing, just after it collapsed to nothing. Why the thing is shaking? Because it's not constant. Why not constant? Because we do exist.

:-)
sonoran sundown
QUOTE (Larryde2003+Jun 16 2012, 02:52 AM)
There is a possibility that before our universe was created Time and space may have existed in a different dimension. Thus, change could have been possible.

In our minds, anything is possible, of course. However, until recent times, science could only address ideas which are feasible and viable. Today, ideas abound in science that cannot be considered because there is no way they can ever be confirmed. Without the restrictions of logic directly applied to the physical world, science soons develops into science-fiction.
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