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Gary Gaulin
I am sure that this recommended reading that I found will be helpful. What is most important for all here to understand has been bolded.

====================================================
http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOA...iss_7/8_1.shtml

What Is Science?
Helen Quinn - Physics Today - July 2009, page 8

In talking about science, whether to the public or to students, we scientists often assume that they share with us a common idea of science. In my experience that is often not the case. To oversimplify, scientists think of science both as a process for discovering properties of nature and as the resulting body of knowledge, whereas most people seem to think of science, or perhaps scientists, as an authority that provides some information—just one more story among the many that they use to help make sense of their world.

Can we close that gap in understanding? Middle-school teachers typically spend a day or so teaching something called the scientific method, but the process by which scientific ideas are developed and tested is messier and much more interesting than that typical capsule description. Some remarkable features of the process are seldom stressed in teaching science, nor are they addressed in explaining any one piece of science to the public. My goal in this column is to provide some ideas for closing the gap in understanding and to encourage scientists and teachers to communicate about the process as they discuss scientific work.

Eradicating inconsistencies

Readers of PHYSICS TODAY know that science is a process, based on interpretation of experimental or observational data using models and theories, within a tightly constrained logical structure. The constraints arise from needing a logically self-consistent explanation of multiple phenomena. Any apparent contradiction between different theories or models, between evidence and theory, or between different sources of evidence must be examined and resolved. Asking questions is a big part of doing science, and choosing to pursue answers to the more compelling and productive ones helps shape a given field. Eventually, something resembling an answer might emerge, only to be tested against further observations, models, or theories, a process that often leads to further questions. The work continues, iteratively refining both the theory or model and the questions being examined. Iterations are essential because the process is inherently messy. There are many false starts, with misinterpretations and incomplete information sometimes sending science off on a wild goose chase for a while. We scientists could well be more forthright about the fits and starts of research; after all, clearing up the inconsistencies is what confers much of the authority on the results.

Much of science seeks to explain observations of the current state of the natural world by developing an evidence-based history of how that situation arose, much as a detective reconstructs a crime. Computer programs that can simulate the progression of the system—or some aspects of it—over time are important tools in such science and can be powerful means to predict outcomes. The developed history must be consistent not only with all that is known about the system in question but also with all that is understood about processes that occur within the system. Geoscience, climate science, astrophysics, cosmology, and evolutionary biology all use that important history-building approach to develop major parts of their theories.

Theories and models develop over time. Based on data, they undergo a long-term process of testing and refinement before becoming accepted scientific explanations or tools in a given domain. Contrast that with the usual description of the scientific method, which reduces continuous and iterative theory building to the idea that one makes and tests hypotheses. The use of a broad theoretical framework within which each hypothesis must fit, and that gets refined by each test, is generally lacking in the textbook account.

Scientific theories, even when generally accepted after much testing and refinement, are still never complete. Each can be safely applied in some limited domain, some range of situations or conditions for which it has been well tested. Each might also apply in some extended regime where it has yet to be tested, and may have little or nothing to offer in still more distant domains. That is the sense in which no theory can be proven to be true; truth is too complete a notion. We need to emphasize that the incompleteness of theory in no way compromises the stability over time of well-established understanding in science—an important notion that is seldom made explicit.

How science progresses

As we all know, science’s cumulative and expanding knowledge base about the natural world is built not only on the exploration of phenomena in natural or laboratory situations but also on the development of theories and through repeated cycles of carefully designed experiments and observations that test and expand those theoretical ideas. At the core of science lies well-tested theory; at its edges, speculation and questions. The authoritativeness of a scientific theory comes from its ability to explain lots of data coherently within its tested domain, beyond which it functions as a hypothesis until tested.

Scientists are always working to extend their theories, to understand new domains, to make new connections. New tools extend the domains that can be studied. New discoveries and their explanations almost always generate new questions. It may seem that science is ever changing, and indeed at the forefront it is, but over time the storehouse of well-tested and stable scientific knowledge grows.

One key to progress in science is an eye for contradictions and an insistence that they be resolved. That can make scientists seem overly dogmatic or argumentative in the eyes of a nonscientist because it diverges strongly from usual human behavior. Of necessity, we all live lives full of contradictory elements, and we must often act without sufficient knowledge to draw logical conclusions or else become incapable of action. For example, when driving my car I am alert for other drivers changing lanes but assume that cars generally travel within their lanes. Without assumptions about the behavior of other drivers I could not drive in traffic, and yet I know those assumptions are not always true.

Science is done in an artificial environment, where its logic can develop without a need for immediate action. That unnatural environment allows science to yield powerful and unexpected new options for eventual action. It is important to note, however, that some applications of science, such as medicine, cannot wait until all questions are resolved. Medical practice can be based on the best available scientific knowledge and theory, but it must often apply them in untested regimes. Much of the public’s feeling that science is always changing its conclusions comes from changes in medical advice that occur when new scientific knowledge overrides the previously best guesses of medical practice.

The limits of science

In everyday usage the question “Why?” can be either about the mechanism by which something occurred or about the reasons for or purposes behind an action. Thus the distinction between reason and mechanism, or between effect and purpose, is often blurred. Religion and philosophy are interested in reasons and purposes, but science cares only about mechanisms. That apparent reduction of the goal is a powerful step that separates modern science from its ancestor, natural philosophy. Modern science focuses our attention on just those questions that can have definitive answers based on observations. Where science does find a path to compare theory with observations, the theories so developed provide a powerful way to understand the world and even to make some predictions about the future. Science offers us new options that may be applied—for example, in technology and medicine—to change the way we live and extend our capabilities. However, scientists tend to forget that issues of reason and purpose are central to many people’s questioning, so the answers they get from science seem inadequate.

Applying established scientific theory to new domains can take us beyond the realm of testable science. For an idea to be outside that realm requires not just that no experiment or observation that could test it is feasible with current technology but that no phenomenon could ever be observed that could illuminate the subject. Physicists’ speculations about universes outside our own observable universe (speculations that I find both fascinating and plausible) are extensions into a realm where tests are impossible, because those other universes are, by definition, outside anything we might ever observe. Such implications from scientific knowledge are not quite at the same level as scientific knowledge in testable domains. I call such speculation scientific metaphysics, to distinguish it from much metaphysical speculation that is clearly not scientific and even contradicts known science. The speculations of scientific metaphysics are constrained and illuminated by the logic of science; they emerge from the same theories that bear on our observable universe and its history. They can lead to new ideas that inform theories of observable phenomena. Some physicists may see the term metaphysics as pejorative, but I do not intend it in that way; I merely wish to distinguish this thinking from that which can be constrained by observations.

Going yet further beyond science, moral and ethical questions are not amenable to the methods of science because they do not ask about the natural world. That does not mean that scientists can disregard questions about values, nor that science is irrelevant to making moral and ethical decisions. For example, science can help predict the outcomes of various actions and thereby give us a longer or deeper view of the consequences of our choices. Science and scientists must be guided by and contribute to the moral and ethical judgments of society in making decisions about which questions to pursue and whether or how to limit that pursuit. Then too, science can present new moral quandaries by offering choices never before available.

Some further thoughts

Science has its own internal values. Science requires absolute honesty about acquired data and the intellectual honesty that insists on resolving logical contradictions. Scientists must be open to new ideas and ready to modify their opinions if and when contradictory evidence emerges. The key values of honesty and openness are essential for science to progress. Scientists are human: They jump to conclusions, they make mistakes in recording or analyzing data. Sometimes a scientist fakes data and commits scientific fraud. The principle of verification by independent replication of experimental results is an important part of science, because it can unmask such errors or fraud.

Science has tremendous patience for detail. By examining the details, we learn the inadequacies of even our most successful theories and how we must change them. Scientists eagerly seek the details that have not been tested and hope they will conflict with the best available theory because that provides an opportunity for new understanding to emerge. Skeptical testing and retesting of ideas is central to the way science works. Only when every possible detail has survived multiple tests can we say that a theory is well established, and then only in the regime where the tests were passed.

Their passion for detail sometimes makes scientists’ communication difficult for laypeople and students to follow. Often, scientists present so much detailed information that even the most interested listener gets lost in it. Although important to the progress of science, such details can overwhelm or bore the nonexpert. In everyday life, insistence on the way every detail is to be understood is viewed as overly pedantic and generally irrelevant.

Key features of the process of science—questioning, building theories, resolving contradictions, and seeking data to test ideas—are common to all natural science. What is learned in one area often has application in another. That commonality is frequently hidden as students learn science. Disciplinary curricula too often stress the particulars of each subdomain more than the underlying methodology or the interconnections. But scientific ideas are not independent of knowledge fragments; a critical test for any new idea is to examine how it fits together with what is already known. Over time, the network of theories developed for separate domains has become deeply interconnected. In much of today’s research, physics cannot be separated from chemistry or biology or Earth science. The separate threads weave together to form a tapestry, all the richer for the multiplicity of its details and approaches. The process is certainly messy but unquestionably powerful. Scientists and science teachers need to do a better job of communicating both aspects.

Helen Quinn is a theoretical particle physicist at SLAC. Throughout her career, she has been passionately involved in science education and public understanding of science.
flyingbuttressman
Too long didn't read.
buttershug
I missed the part where scientists steal other terminology and use it to mean something very different from what everybody else means when they say it, both people who agree and people who don't agree.

If you don't mean a pre-existing external intelligence then don't say "Intelligent Design".
RobDegraves
biggrin.gif

Buttershug

Nicely accurate comment there.

MisterBelfry
QUOTE (Helen Quinn+)
Scientists are human: They jump to conclusions, they make mistakes in recording or analyzing data. Sometimes a scientist fakes data and commits scientific fraud. The principle of verification by independent replication of experimental results is an important part of science, because it can unmask such errors or fraud.
Could it get it worse then when these scientists are medical doctors practicing in
their chosen field?

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=395523
uaafanblog
Abrahamist fruitcakes criticizing science on any level is beyond asinine when the book they follow was largely lifted from Zoroastrianism. No .. lifted is too kind; plagiarized is better. Leave the criticism of science to scientists. The complexities of all it's "truth-seeking" processes make it self-regulating. It needs no input (of any kind) from anyone incapable (at the most basic level) of discerning myth from reality.

You are baselessly antithetical.

So I'm sorry but we must reject anything you say.

Lastly ... just copying/pasting articles without generating a simple OP and sharing your views is the preferred default when starting a thread. If we wanted to read and/or comment on Helen Quinn's views we can do so at the site where the original article is published.

MisterBelfry

Are most published research findings actually false? The case for reform.

Source: http://www.seedmagazine.com Posted May 21, 2007
Copyright © 2007 João Medeiros

Back to... Fraud



In a 2005 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association, epidemiologist John Ioannidis showed that among the 45 most highly cited clinical research findings of the past 15 years, 99 percent of molecular research had subsequently been refuted. Epidemiology findings had been contradicted in four-fifths of the cases he looked at, and the usually robust outcomes of clinical trials had a refutation rate of one in four.

The revelations struck a chord with the scientific community at large:
MORE(fairly short)
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/New/Fraud/secret.html

Gary Gaulin
http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/ants_and_neurons/
RobDegraves
This thread gets the Non Sequitur award as far as I am concerned. We should have one of those and give the first one to Gary Gaulin.
uaafanblog
I considered a recitation of the vicissitudes of Nachos to give this thread some sort of meaning. But Bill Maher started "channelling" through me. We are all a little worse off Nachos-wise because of that.

I'm so sorry.
MisterBelfry
QUOTE
...to give this thread some sort of meaning.

Knowledge is that cutting edge we need to make in life. Ask anyone in our classes how the Science of Mind, as the path of study, has changed their lives and before they speak you will see his face light up. And that will tell you all you need to know. Knowledge is like that. Science of Mind is a Path of Study, so study.

^^^
I am attempting to answer the question of why a little knowledge is dangerous. The problem is, none of us want to hear that it is, for it puts more responsibility on us than we wish to have. Biblically, it is like having to listen to the Hebrew prophet, Jeremiah, considered to be the Bible's loneliest and saddest figure. Jeremiah reminded people of their responsibility to God when they least wished to hear it.

^^^
Science of Mind is subject to the same tendency towards fundamentalism that has plagued other spiritual systems before it. This is partly because, sooner or later, many people of a particular system will refuse to go beyond the teachings of the original master, resulting in the movement losing its vitality. "By their fruits you shall know them," says Jesus and the litmus test for knowing if we are part of an outmoded group is to see whether we spend most of our time talking about "the good old days." In the case of the Science of Mind, this is an unhealthy practice that Holmes would not tolerate. Holmes believes in taking truth wherever we find it and making it our own to the extent we understand it.

--Science of Mind as a Path of Study by Rev. Arthur W. Chang
MisterBelfry
...With about the same search pattern ^^^

Immaterialism Holographic Universe.Network
Immaterialism in the news- Latest NY Times: Challenging Particle Physics as Path
to Truth · email ? . . . . . . Menu . ...
http://www.holographicuniverse.org/ - 24k - Cached - Similar pages


Irreducible Complexity in Mathematics, Physics and Biology ...Challenging Particle Physics as Path to Truth. Many complex systems  the
very ones the solid-staters study  appear to be ...
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent...cs-and-biology/ - 96k - Cached -

Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Aug 6 2009, 06:13 AM)
This thread gets the Non Sequitur award as far as I am concerned. We should have one of those and give the first one to Gary Gaulin.

Thanks for the thought, that's what counts you know!

But honestly I have been so well rewarded in the past few weeks that any more scientific victories would be way too overhelming for me. So I must give my award to you since you deserve it so much more than I do.

And did you hear what's happeneing in Dover, too? What a mess that is going to be for your dogma to have to lick up. But the ID'ers are loving the show, so I'm also overthrilled about that!!!

RobDegraves
QUOTE
So I must give my award to you since you deserve it so much more than I do.


Then you would have to show that my posts are non sequiturs... which you cannot.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So I must give my award to you since you deserve it so much more than I do.


Then you would have to show that my posts are non sequiturs... which you cannot.

And did you hear what's happeneing in Dover, too?


No idea... and it's spelled "happening".

I take it that you aren't even bothering with even the appearance of rationality anymore. It's at least more honest.
buttershug
QUOTE (Gary Gaulin+Aug 7 2009, 06:33 PM)
Thanks for the thought, that's what counts you know!

But honestly I have been so well rewarded in the past few weeks that any more scientific victories would be way too overhelming for me. So I must give my award to you since you deserve it so much more than I do.

And did you hear what's happeneing in Dover, too? What a mess that is going to be for your dogma to have to lick up. But the ID'ers are loving the show, so I'm also overthrilled about that!!!

What do you and Id'ers have in common other than the name of the theory you stole from them?
And your fellow Evolutions don't follow Dogma they follow evidence.

Which says that your explaination is accurate in that it appears that there is no external God that created everything as opposed the the original ID'ers who dissagree with you and say that there is a God.
Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (buttershug+Aug 7 2009, 07:31 PM)
And your fellow Evolutions don't follow Dogma they follow evidence.

Hahahahahahaha!!!! Sounds like you made it all the way to turning theory into religion.

Here's something from one of the debates that is now kinda over (for your dogma). Answer please:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since you stepped in to see what the noise is all about, would you care to explain human speciation for us? Among other things as it stands now the only credible evidence to have been presented in this forum is that we are descendant for a 46 chromosome man and woman who became "human" through the process of chromosomal speciation, not slow change with no "speciation event" that can be pinpointed. Here is a little reading on it:

[17] Francisco J. Ayala and Mario Coluzzi
Colloquium Paper: Systematics and the Origin of Species: Chromosome speciation: Humans, Drosophila, and mosquitoes
PNAS 2005 102:6535-6542; published online before print April 25, 2005, doi:10.1073/pnas.0501847102
http://www.pnas.org/content/102/suppl.1/6535.full

Regardless of what people will find in it should Dover teachers be teaching the scientific evidence (as above) in science class, or help Big Dog keep it buried so none learn about it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (Gary Gaulin+Aug 7 2009, 02:41 PM)
Hahahahahahaha!!!! Sounds like you made it all the way to turning theory into religion.

So, because your pseudo-religious views can't ever be regarded as theories, you try to pull theories into the religious circle? I'm sorry, but your attempts to "level the playing field" will fail as they have always failed. You're defining religion as "something that someone cares a great deal about." That is not the definition of religion and it never will be.
Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Aug 7 2009, 08:12 PM)
So, because your pseudo-religious views can't ever be regarded as theories, you try to pull theories into the religious circle? I'm sorry, but your attempts to "level the playing field" will fail as they have always failed. You're defining religion as "something that someone cares a great deal about." That is not the definition of religion and it never will be.

Stop with your sky dumping on religion crapola already!

I only care about the facts being taught. So answer please!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since you stepped in to see what the noise is all about, would you care to explain human speciation for us? Among other things as it stands now the only credible evidence to have been presented in this forum is that we are descendant for a 46 chromosome man and woman who became "human" through the process of chromosomal speciation, not slow change with no "speciation event" that can be pinpointed. Here is a little reading on it:

[17] Francisco J. Ayala and Mario Coluzzi
Colloquium Paper: Systematics and the Origin of Species: Chromosome speciation: Humans, Drosophila, and mosquitoes
PNAS 2005 102:6535-6542; published online before print April 25, 2005, doi:10.1073/pnas.0501847102
http://www.pnas.org/content/102/suppl.1/6535.full

Regardless of what people will find in it should Dover teachers be teaching the scientific evidence (as above) in science class, or help Big Dog keep it buried so none learn about it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
buttershug
Was there anything in that link that said God made humans?

It is so difficult to understand you. You talk about scientific evidence, you describe Evolution.
Yet you put down the people you agree with and support the people you say are wrong.

Some aspects of Evolutionary Theory are not correct. They are being corrected with data.
ID has no mechanism of correction because it starts with the conclusion.


Just what are you trying to show?

Are you saying that "God did it" or not? You keep getting further and further away from saying "God did it" but you keep aligning yourself with the "God did it" crowd.

which side are you on the "God did it" side or the Evolutionists side?
buttershug
QUOTE (Gary Gaulin+Aug 7 2009, 07:41 PM)
Among other things as it stands now the only credible evidence to have been presented in this forum is that we are descendant for a 46 chromosome man and woman who became "human" through the process of chromosomal speciation, not slow change with no "speciation event" that can be pinpointed.

Both of those are on the same side of the fence.
They are both evolution without interference from God.

The other side of the fence of those two is ID's "God did it".
Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (buttershug+Aug 7 2009, 09:00 PM)
Both of those are on the same side of the fence.
They are both evolution without interference from God.

The other side of the fence of those two is ID's "God did it".

Why should you care what the religious minded people find in the scientific facts? All I care about is that they know them. And in my opinion the new highly scientific interpretation of scripture will even be taught in Madras and Sunday Schools, forming a new common bond between world religions so there are fewer wars.

No matter how hard you try religion is NOT ever going to go away and you cannot change that fact. But when science is working in its favor both Christianity and Islam as they say "follows reason" which is something I can change just by explaining what the most modern scientific evidence now concludes.






buttershug
So you agree that there is no evidence for God?
Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (buttershug+Aug 7 2009, 11:16 PM)
So you agree that there is no evidence for God?

Stated that way, the answer in "No". The evidence suggests that with further scientific progress (especially in area of source of consciousnes) the theory will continue to show that things are not as simple as you want to believe they are.

And please spare me the usual insults that will next suggest I believe in a magic Santa Claus God that fly's through space from the workshop to deliver new species to the planet.
RobDegraves
QUOTE
The evidence suggests that with further scientific progress (especially in area of source of consciousnes)


What evidence?
Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Aug 8 2009, 04:48 AM)

What evidence?

It cannot be explained to someone who refuses to study and learn the prerequisite knowlege.

http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/




RobDegraves
QUOTE
It cannot be explained to someone who refuses to study and learn the prerequisite knowlege.


So... like you then.

BTW... it's spelled "knowledge". It's just a tad ironic that you should misspell that one in particular.
Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Aug 8 2009, 06:10 AM)
BTW... it's spelled "knowledge". It's just a tad ironic that you should misspell that one in particular.

Give me a break here! I'm typing my brains out as fast as I can!!

And I have no reason to question the most useful science that I learned from books (not all taught in schools or colleges) that I have made excellent progress with over the years.

I'm a self-learner that was always ahead of my peers in science. Which is why I can write theories that goes over the head of many college educated science majors, yet am easily brushed off by paper-pushers.
Derek1148
QUOTE (Gary Gaulin+Aug 8 2009, 07:37 AM)
Give me a break here! I'm typing my brains out as fast as I can!!

And I have no reason to question the most useful science that I learned from books (not all taught in schools or colleges) that I have made excellent progress with over the years.

I'm a self-learner that was always ahead of my peers in science. Which is why I can write theories that goes over the head of many college educated science majors, yet am easily brushed off by paper-pushers.

Grammar is important to correctly and effectively convey ideas.
buttershug
QUOTE (Gary Gaulin+Aug 8 2009, 04:41 AM)
Stated that way, the answer in "No". The evidence suggests that with further scientific progress (especially in area of source of consciousnes) the theory will continue to show that things are not as simple as you want to believe they are.

And please spare me the usual insults that will next suggest I believe in a magic Santa Claus God that fly's through space from the workshop to deliver new species to the planet.

That's ironic.
I've read about Godel and Mandelbrot. I think things are infinitely complex. In real life I"ve probably said and thought "it's not that simple" more than anyone else.

The issue is "Is there a God?".
The whole reason "ID" exists is because of a belief in God. No one would have thought of it if they did not first believe in God.

I know it's not so simple but can you give a simple explaination as to why you change the meanings of words to non-standard meanings? Why not use words that already mean what you want to say?

But most importantly what are the "things that can be better explained..."? And remember the people who first said it mean "there are somethings better explained by "God did it"."
Gary Gaulin
QUOTE (buttershug+Aug 8 2009, 12:23 PM)
I know it's not so simple but can you give a simple explaination as to why you change the meanings of words to non-standard meanings? Why not use words that already mean what you want to say?

But most importantly what are the "things that can be better explained..."? And remember the people who first said it mean "there are somethings better explained by "God did it"."

You know I agree that "it's not that simple". That is why I do not rule out possibilities where there is no evidence to make such a conclusion. And math generated fractals are "infinitely complex" so that is possible too.

How I define/explain the word "intelligence" is from robotics, primarily the work of David Heiserman. The reducing down of his algorithms to four absolutely necessary "requirements" that work very well in a four line program loop came from thousands of hours of experience with them while growing up and the need for a simple high-school level definition. I also modeled neural networks, expert systems, knowledge bases, and what was in essence genetic algorithms. Can say I computer modeled just about every AI system that exists in order to find one that actually produced intelligence. A relatively intensive home course I took when young helped too but none of the methods generated autonomous self-learning intelligence as is found in living things. So in the case of the word "intelligence" my definition comes from experience. Which is why sticking a cut/paste from an online dictionary in my face expecting me to explain at that low a level is childish beyond belief. But it happens often and not just in this forum.

I use the all inclusive word "Creator" in place of God, Allah, etc. because I do not follow one religion I'm a mix of many. Each worships the same thing but differently. Since science is religion neutral (not excluding) and a Creator can be made of more than one part (God+Goddess, Father+Son+Holy Spirit) and can also be described as "just physics" what I explain works in every common religion even though Atheists still sometimes attack the word.

I define words as accurately as possible and choose words so that what I say is "precise" and makes sense to any religion.

RobDegraves
Gary Gaulin


QUOTE
I'm a self-learner that was always ahead of my peers in science.


Besides the well established fact that humility and you have never crossed paths... what peers are you talking about?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm a self-learner that was always ahead of my peers in science.


Besides the well established fact that humility and you have never crossed paths... what peers are you talking about?

I define words as accurately as possible and choose words so that what I say is "precise" and makes sense to any religion.


No... you redefine words. That is not the same thing.


QUOTE
How I define/explain the word "intelligence" is from robotics, primarily the work of David Heiserman.



Hmmm... I think this next quote rather speaks for itself.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How I define/explain the word "intelligence" is from robotics, primarily the work of David Heiserman.



Hmmm... I think this next quote rather speaks for itself.

About David L. Heiserman
David L. Heiserman is a published author of young adult books. Some of the published credits of David L. Heiserman include Exploring Chemical Elements and Their Compounds.


Sigh...

OK... how about this for a challenge.

Define intelligence.
buttershug
QUOTE (Gary Gaulin+Aug 8 2009, 02:46 PM)
I define words as accurately as possible and choose words so that what I say is "precise" and makes sense to any religion.

Admit it, you chose "intelligence" before you examined the data.

You make "intelligence" fit what you found . You didn't choose a word based on what you found.
Grumpy
Gary Gaudy

QUOTE
It cannot be explained to someone who refuses to study and learn the prerequisite knowlege.


Then it isn't evidence at all, it is BS. Evidence is simple facts, they need no explanation. If you cannot simply present it, it isn't evidence.

"WHAT A MAROON!" Bugs Bunny

Grumpy cool.gif
MisterBelfry

From: Richard C ® 15/07/2009 10:52:10 AM

Subject: Issues with Peer-Review post id: 4235848

From wikipedia

"One of the most common complaints about the peer review process is that it is slow, and that it typically takes several months or even several years in some fields for a submitted paper to appear in print. In practice, much of the communication about new results in some fields such as astronomy no longer takes place through peer-reviewed papers, but rather through preprints submitted onto electronic servers such as arXiv.org. However, such preprints are often also submitted to refereed journals, and in many cases have, at the time of electronic submission, already passed through the peer review process and been accepted for publication.

While passing the peer-review process is often considered in the scientific community to be a certification of validity, it is not without its problems. Drummond Rennie, deputy editor of Journal of the American Medical Association is an organizer of the International Congress on Peer Review and Biomedical Publication, which has been held every four years since 1986.[7] He remarks,


"There seems to be no study too fragmented, no hypothesis too trivial, no literature too biased or too egotistical, no design too warped, no methodology too bungled, no presentation of results too inaccurate, too obscure, and too contradictory, no analysis too self-serving, no argument too circular, no conclusions too trifling or too unjustified, and no grammar and syntax too offensive for a paper to end up in print."[8]

Richard Horton, editor of the British medical journal The Lancet, has said that "The mistake, of course, is to have thought that peer review was any more than a crude means ...


From: Richard C ® 15/07/2009 11:24:25 AM
Subject: re: Issues with Peer-Review post id: 4235892

And Richard Horton's comment doesn't do a lot for one's confidence

"We portray peer review to the public as a quasi-sacred process that helps to make science our most objective truth teller. But we know that the system of peer review is biased, unjust, unaccountable, incomplete, easily fixed, often insulting, usually ignorant, occasionally foolish, and frequently wrong"


From: Dr Eigen ® 15/07/2009 2:01:42 PM

Subject: re: Issues with Peer-Review post id: 4236160

>> But we know that the system of peer review is biased, unjust, unaccountable, incomplete, easily fixed, often insulting, usually ignorant, occasionally foolish, and frequently wrong.

As a regular participant in the peer process, on both sides, I find that offensive. That bloke may do sh*# biased reviews, but I don't.

* biased - not the system, the people
* unjust - no
* unaccountable - only with a very narrow definition of "accountable"
* incomplete - yes, valid point
* easily fixed - no
* often insulting - no
* usually ignorant - no
* occasionally foolish - most things are
* and frequently wrong - no


From: Dr Eigen ® 15/07/2009 2:08:19 PM
Subject: re: Issues with Peer-Review post id: 4236176

-----
> * and frequently wrong - no

Well, published papers usually contain at least one non-obvious serious error. Peer review doesn't usually pick that up. But it does reject papers that have lots of errors.
-----

Does anyone with a brain claim that the peer review process is *supposed* to make a paper bulletproof?



From: buffy ® 15/07/2009 2:43:20 PM
Subject: re: Issues with Peer-Review post id: 4236225

So you made me go and look. Clinical and Experimental Optometry (which is the Australian optometry journal). January 2009 edition, every paper was sent for revision...except one which is a "Viewpoint". March 2009 edition, every paper sent for revision. May 2009 edition (special issue on Wavefront Optics), every paper sent for revision.

I didn't think I was imagining it. It's become the first thing I look at for a paper.....you will hear me exclaim when I find the first one that has been accepted as submitted!


From: Dr Matt ® 15/07/2009 9:15:07 PM
Subject: re: Issues with Peer-Review post id: 4236577

Now please tell me it's not nearly that bad.
===========

Yes it is, much like the world is in the depths of a serious recession...

i.e. yes, but life goes on.

Peer review is often slow, often useless and often stupid but it generally works.

http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/new...pic4235853.shtm

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