To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: What Is Life?
PhysOrgForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > General Sci-Tech Discussions > Creation / Evolution

Grumpy
Creationists often conflate Abiogenesis and Evolution, but how life began is really unimportant to the study of how changes occur after the process starts.

But first, we must determine just what we mean by "life". What are the minimum requirements for something to be considered alive. Are viruses and prions "alive"? They cannot independently reproduce, they do not resperate, eat, eliminate or use energy, yet we cannot deny that they are biological organisms, very sophisticated ones, in some cases.

So what would be the simplest structure that could be called life???

Several labs have synthesized molecules that are able to produce copies of themselves from smaller molecules in their specialized environments. Dr M Reza Ghadiri leads one such lab group, his criteria for life are...

1. It is self-replicating.

2. It is self-sustaining.

3. It is capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution.

Only in the widest sense would Viruses and prions be included in this definition, they require a host's machinery to reproduce and sustain themselves. The lab "grown" molecules do not yet fit, requiring specialized environments to reproduce and sustain themselves.

But do these molecules point the way to a period of "chemical evolution" that led up to the first life. Is it arbitrary of us to draw a line on such a process and say on this side is non-life, on the other, life???

Creationists make much of the complexity of even the simplest proteins. But in an environment where more complex and successful proteins do not compete, could not simpler, slower and more fragile compounds not survive???

There are many more points to be made, others probably will make them better than I. We are not discussing evolution here, but possible natural sources for the beginnings of the life that then evolved.

Building blocks(amino acids) have been detected in interstellar dust. Meteorites contain even more complex prebiotic compounds, Black Smokers provide rich, energy filled environments safe from ultraviolet light and Mother Ocean's influence can be seen as cells are simply sacs of polluted water.

Your input welcome.

Grumpy cool.gif
buttershug
I don't think Creationists truly understand the implications of the need to make such definitions.
And I think very very few Evolutionists understand it either.

The artifical creation of urea was one of the top 100 hundred accomplishments of science because of what it meant.
N O M
But if a virus is not alive, how did they become as they are? Were the "ancestors" of virii living organisms (by the definition Grumpy posted) that thrived as parasites and eventually lost any ability to reproduce of their own accord. Or was the original proto-virus just a chance mutation in a host's DNA?
buttershug
QUOTE (N O M+May 20 2008, 01:26 AM)
But if a virus is not alive, how did they become as they are? Were the "ancestors" of virii living organisms (by the definition Grumpy posted) that thrived as parasites and eventually lost any ability to reproduce of their own accord. Or was the original proto-virus just a chance mutation in a host's DNA?

I believe I have a magazine (an old one) that has an article comparing computer viruses with their namesake.
And IIRC the articles would say that later is the case. And that virus formation is statisticall inevitable.

If I remember tommorrow I will look for it and reread it.
N O M
In a not entirely off topic comment. I'm just looking out my office window wondering why there are several people milling around out on the closed off street wearing biohazard suits ph34r.gif


[edit]OK, it's a biohazard scare[/edit]
Grumpy
N O M

Modern viruses are also the product of billions of years of evolution. I do not believe they could have existed until quite late in the development of single cell life, when the DNA/RNA machinery was available for them to hijack(pure speculation on my part, but it sounds reasonable).

I believe that the first life was simple long chain peptides in a soup of smaller molecules, that, over a period of time, could assemble those smaller molecules into copies+imperfections/adhesions(molecules just along for the ride due to chance bonds with useful molecules), or mirror image(the first sex???) copies+imperfections/adhesions. Once such a molecule existed, the imperfections/adhesions would start the evolutionary process. The eventual result would be a strand of RNA/DNA actively able to assemble copies.

We do not see such molecules today, because, before they were given time to reproduce(a very slow/random process, maybe taking years or decades) DNA life would come along to eat them.

Grumpy cool.gif
El_Machinae
QUOTE (N O M+May 20 2008, 01:26 AM)
But if a virus is not alive, how did they become as they are? Were the "ancestors" of virii living organisms (by the definition Grumpy posted) that thrived as parasites and eventually lost any ability to reproduce of their own accord. Or was the original proto-virus just a chance mutation in a host's DNA?

Hot damn, that's a good question. I think looking for the answer would be a lot of fun.
Gorgeous
Could also be that the viruses of now have had to change drastically to co-exist within the environment of now. This is a very different Planet than the one where organic 'life' first e~merged from.



g.
N O M
QUOTE (Grumpy+May 20 2008, 10:29 PM)
Modern viruses are also the product of billions of years of evolution.

That's a point that many people fail to get. All life now on Earth is a result of billions of years of evolution. Once life is on a planet, completely new forms of life are very unlikely to start. Viruses may be the exception to this. They may well be the most recent form of life to be engendered on Earth.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (N O M+May 20 2008, 11:31 PM)
That's a point that many people fail to get. All life now on Earth is a result of billions of years of evolution. Once life is on a planet, completely new forms of life are very unlikely to start. Viruses may be the exception to this. They may well be the most recent form of life to be engendered on Earth.

Think about it... Can you imagine complex multi-'cellular' viral organisms?
I don't think it'd happen, viruses just ain't built for that. But ya never know what neat little trick mother nature might pull outa her sleeve next.
Sinister Utopia
This has always fascinated me:

Mimi Virus

If I recall there was a fierce debate whether or not this should be reclassified as 'Alive'or not, there were suggestions that it should have a new classification (something in between)

Makes you think though...
uaafanblog
I'd disagree that "life" would have to have the potential to be evolved to be classified as "life".

For the sake of argument ... Let's say you've got a perfectly balanced primordial soup. Along comes an efficient bacterium that co-exists in it's environment in a balanced way. In our system there is every reason to expect it's DNA to mutate and new forms to arise. But I'd have to think in some manifestation somewhere there exists a non-mutating form of primitive life swimming around in the same soup where it began billions of years ago with it's non-mutating RNA/DNA (or other chemical coding) exactly the same as day 1.

I like a simpler definition of life.

1. Organic (i.e... natural)
2. Ingest's and excretes

I leave out self-replicating because it isn't obvious to me that some immortal organic "thing" couldn't exist somewhere. I don't know that my definition solves the virus question ... I can see arguments for either side.
MisterBelfry
>>> Creationists often conflate Abiogenesis and Evolution, <<<

So, do Grumpys ---->Showtopic= 21405

Posted by: MisterBelfry May 14 2008, 11:55 AM
QUOTE (gmilam Apr 27 2008 @ 04:10 PM)

The only challenge I've seen is in finding people who understand evolution.



I wonder how closely it DOES resemble Quantum Mechanics.
Its reach in science has a parallel. Does it or doesn't it go all the way to the Big Bang or the endangered Cat? Evolution(as a scientific sounding board) is not just a philosophy though, it is a Faith that God need not answer and in fact won't answer. That's why, the science is in the eschatology!

MrB.


Posted by: Grumpy May 14 2008, 01:17 PM
Bats


QUOTE
That's why, the science is in the eschatology!



No, the science is in the observed facts.

Fact-The Universe was different in the past, it has "Evolved".

Fact-Life was different in the past, it too has "Evolved".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now I see the scare quotes. But who are you trying to fool?

MrB.
Grumpy
Bats

QUOTE
So, do Grumpys ---->Showtopic= 21405


Neither there or anywhere else have I ever confused evolution with abiogenesis, nor do I think evolution is dependent on life's origin.

Bats evidently have very poor reading comprehension.

Grumpy cool.gif
MisterBelfry
No, you are just plain confused.
And Gmilam seems to be your friend in that confusion ------>Showtopic= 20875
Posted by: MisterBelfry Today at 9:39 AM
Life comes from life, it is called biogenesis.
buttershug
And where does that life come from?

And what is life?

It is not what people thought it was before the making of artifical urea.
It was thought to be basically a different kind of substance than non-life.

It was thought that urine was made of life substance since it came from living beings. That was proven wrong.
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.