Luckily, the extinction rate is making the job easier.
Bah, don't worry about it. "Adam", being mankind, is still naming all the animals. We still have millions of species to go until that little bit is done.
Luckily, the extinction rate is making the job easier.
Luckily, the extinction rate is making the job easier.
Agreed.
I can sorta understand a creationists view that maybe everything around us, everything in the known universe, and everything we have yet to discover, was created by some higher intelligence. What I can't undertstand though are why people believe in these silly little stories like Adam and Eve...
These silly little stories, as you call them, are part of a book, a very important book if you believe in Christianity. The Bible, I believe is wholly and completely true, and Genesis is the basis and the foundation for the rest; if you believe part in the bible, it is very important that you believe it all to be true. That is why I believe in those silly little stories, because they make up the foundation of the rest of my belief.
And, who is to say they are not true, there isn’t any good reasons that I have heard to convince me otherwise.
And, who is to say they are not true, there isn’t any good reasons that I have heard to convince me otherwise.
QUOTE (Frau_Heibert+Sep 21 2006, 07:27 PM)
These silly little stories, as you call them, are part of a book, a very important book if you believe in Christianity. The Bible, I believe is wholly and completely true, and Genesis is the basis and the foundation for the rest; if you believe part in the bible, it is very important that you believe it all to be true. That is why I believe in those silly little stories, because they make up the foundation of the rest of my belief.
And, who is to say they are not true, there isn’t any good reasons that I have heard to convince me otherwise.
Frau Heibert,
If I told you there was an apple tree in my front yard you could choose to take my word for it and believe me, or you could choose not to believe me. Either way though you know that it could very well be possible because you know what an apple tree is. You’ve most likely seen one in person, perhaps touched one with your hand, picked an apple from a limb, eaten it, smelled it’s blossoms, etc. You’ve read about apple trees in books, and you’ve tested the theory that they exist by actually seeing one for yourself. By accepting what your 5 senses have told you, smell, taste, touch, sight, hearing, you have chosen to believe the Apple tree exists. However, if I told you that there was a tree in my front yard that produced 100-dollar bills instead of apples, you would be less inclined to believe me because you have never seen one, and no one you know has seen one.
There are no means available that I know of to test the theory that Adam and Eve existed, and that “God” or whatever name you choose, actually exists. You can speculate, but you can't be 100% certain. You can read about the story in the Bible, but you and I weren’t there. Do you know who wrote the Bible? I mean really know? All the Books? The history behind it? Do you know who put it together? Is there any inkling, deep down in your gut, our your “soul”, that maybe…just maybe it might not be true? You could choose to believe because someone else believes (which is probably why you believe.) There is an estimated to be a few billion Christians in the world, and for some that may be a sufficient reason to believe, but for me personally it is not good enough.
I say the stories are silly because there is plausible deniability. To be true to myself, to live my life around a belief, and to teach my children of such things, I have to be 100% certain.
In case you are wondering, there is no apple tree in my front yard. It would be nice if there was…
And, who is to say they are not true, there isn’t any good reasons that I have heard to convince me otherwise.
Frau Heibert,
If I told you there was an apple tree in my front yard you could choose to take my word for it and believe me, or you could choose not to believe me. Either way though you know that it could very well be possible because you know what an apple tree is. You’ve most likely seen one in person, perhaps touched one with your hand, picked an apple from a limb, eaten it, smelled it’s blossoms, etc. You’ve read about apple trees in books, and you’ve tested the theory that they exist by actually seeing one for yourself. By accepting what your 5 senses have told you, smell, taste, touch, sight, hearing, you have chosen to believe the Apple tree exists. However, if I told you that there was a tree in my front yard that produced 100-dollar bills instead of apples, you would be less inclined to believe me because you have never seen one, and no one you know has seen one.
There are no means available that I know of to test the theory that Adam and Eve existed, and that “God” or whatever name you choose, actually exists. You can speculate, but you can't be 100% certain. You can read about the story in the Bible, but you and I weren’t there. Do you know who wrote the Bible? I mean really know? All the Books? The history behind it? Do you know who put it together? Is there any inkling, deep down in your gut, our your “soul”, that maybe…just maybe it might not be true? You could choose to believe because someone else believes (which is probably why you believe.) There is an estimated to be a few billion Christians in the world, and for some that may be a sufficient reason to believe, but for me personally it is not good enough.
I say the stories are silly because there is plausible deniability. To be true to myself, to live my life around a belief, and to teach my children of such things, I have to be 100% certain.
In case you are wondering, there is no apple tree in my front yard. It would be nice if there was…
QUOTE (Frau_Heibert+Sep 21 2006, 07:27 PM)
And, who is to say they are not true, there isn’t any good reasons that I have heard to convince me otherwise.
I can't speak for you, but for me personally, if there is a lack of evidence to prove something is false, that doesn't mean I should believe it's true. I need evidence to show something is true for me to believe in it. The Bible is not a piece of evidence in my opinion. Maybe for you, I dunno...
I can't speak for you, but for me personally, if there is a lack of evidence to prove something is false, that doesn't mean I should believe it's true. I need evidence to show something is true for me to believe in it. The Bible is not a piece of evidence in my opinion. Maybe for you, I dunno...
dilbert,
Although there are many, possibly most, people who call themselves Christians and do not think about it again, don't question. I do, I question my beliefs a lot, every time I am faced with a moral decision. I do as I type these. So don't assume that I am just arguing for argument sake, but because I really believe what I am saying, and I you asked a question... now that I looked back, it is not really a question, more like a statement waiting for a reply, then your rebuttal.
My reason for believing is because it makes most sense. There is nothing in the bible that can be prooven false, even for you that should account for something. As for my other more "religion"- like reasons, I wont share. But not because I fell embarrassed or because I don't know what I am talking about, but because there would be no reason for me to. My reasons would require a little bit of pre-info that you would need to assume as true. And I know they are true because another thing would need to believe.
But I also believe, because it was told in the Bible, that nobody can know the truth unless they were enlightened by God, or something to that nature. (I could look it up, but I am lazy.) But basically if you don't give Christianity a chance, you will always believe it is stupid.
Although there are many, possibly most, people who call themselves Christians and do not think about it again, don't question. I do, I question my beliefs a lot, every time I am faced with a moral decision. I do as I type these. So don't assume that I am just arguing for argument sake, but because I really believe what I am saying, and I you asked a question... now that I looked back, it is not really a question, more like a statement waiting for a reply, then your rebuttal.
My reason for believing is because it makes most sense. There is nothing in the bible that can be prooven false, even for you that should account for something. As for my other more "religion"- like reasons, I wont share. But not because I fell embarrassed or because I don't know what I am talking about, but because there would be no reason for me to. My reasons would require a little bit of pre-info that you would need to assume as true. And I know they are true because another thing would need to believe.
But I also believe, because it was told in the Bible, that nobody can know the truth unless they were enlightened by God, or something to that nature. (I could look it up, but I am lazy.) But basically if you don't give Christianity a chance, you will always believe it is stupid.
If you believe in biblical literalism, then a natural mind ought to ferret out the literal truths of the bible by simply reading it, without faith.
If you read the bible, you come to 1 Corinthians 1:18-19, then man's wisdom is not enough to read the bible, so biblical literalism must be rejected. This latter part seems to be the scriptural part to Frau_Heibert's last paragraph.
But if you reject biblical literalism then no isolated verse in the bible can be taken as literally true or false. Logic and truth values don't enter into it. Only the gestalt of the big picture matters. Specifically the scientific value of Genesis could be nil, and big picture Christians should be OK with that. I have posted a couple times before on my idea of Big Picture Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism
If you read the bible, you come to 1 Corinthians 1:18-19, then man's wisdom is not enough to read the bible, so biblical literalism must be rejected. This latter part seems to be the scriptural part to Frau_Heibert's last paragraph.
But if you reject biblical literalism then no isolated verse in the bible can be taken as literally true or false. Logic and truth values don't enter into it. Only the gestalt of the big picture matters. Specifically the scientific value of Genesis could be nil, and big picture Christians should be OK with that. I have posted a couple times before on my idea of Big Picture Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism
QUOTE (rpenner+Sep 21 2006, 11:18 PM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
QUOTE
If you believe in biblical literalism, then a natural mind ought to ferret out the literal truths of the bible by simply reading it, without faith.
If you read the bible, you come to 1 Corinthians 1:18-19, then man's wisdom is not enough to read the bible, so biblical literalism must be rejected. This latter part seems to be the scriptural part to Frau_Heibert's last paragraph.
But if you reject biblical literalism then no isolated verse in the bible can be taken as literally true or false. Logic and truth values don't enter into it. Only the gestalt of the big picture matters. Specifically the scientific value of Genesis could be nil, and big picture Christians should be OK with that. I have posted a couple times before on my idea of Big Picture Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism
If you read the bible, you come to 1 Corinthians 1:18-19, then man's wisdom is not enough to read the bible, so biblical literalism must be rejected. This latter part seems to be the scriptural part to Frau_Heibert's last paragraph.
But if you reject biblical literalism then no isolated verse in the bible can be taken as literally true or false. Logic and truth values don't enter into it. Only the gestalt of the big picture matters. Specifically the scientific value of Genesis could be nil, and big picture Christians should be OK with that. I have posted a couple times before on my idea of Big Picture Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism
I am not seeing anything in that verse that points out that the Bible can not be taken literally, but only that people who think they are wise, apart from the truth, are really not at all. And also that those not saved are going to see it as foolishness, yes that IS what I was referring to, and because I don't remember those words specifically, I think that there are more verses, or at least another that says the same thing, but I am not sure.
QUOTE (Frau_Heibert+Sep 22 2006, 07:32 PM)
I am not seeing anything in that verse that points out that the Bible can not be taken literally, but only that people who think they are wise, apart from the truth, are really not at all. And also that those not saved are going to see it as foolishness, yes that IS what I was referring to, and because I don't remember those words specifically, I think that there are more verses, or at least another that says the same thing, but I am not sure.
This sort of demonstrates one of the problems I have with religion. Most of the religions I see today I find to be too confusing because people can't agree upon what is truth and what is not. Within the circles of Christianity you have people that interpret the Bible literally, word for word, and you have others that read it metaphorically. Science, and my own beliefs aside, was the heaves and the Earth created in literally six days? Is a “day” a different measurement of time? Who is to say is what? And most importantly, if one is allowed to interpret this as not literally being six days, that when else can the reader take as a metaphor? Who says what is true and what is not? I’m pretty fond of Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason. Here is a quote from Part 1, chapter VII, that deals with this issue,
“The continually progressive change to which the meaning of words is subject, the want of an universal language which renders translation necessary, the errors to which translations are again subject, the mistakes of copyists and printers, together with the possibility of wilful alteration, are of themselves evidences that human language, whether in speech or in print, cannot be the vehicle of the Word of God. -- The Word of God exists in something else.”
Part of me thinks that if the Christina God exists, you would know, absolutely. You would not be reading about him/her. He/she would be here now, in the present, and unmistakable. Perhaps a booming voice from the sky. “Hello, I am God! Here I am. Obey me…”
QUOTE
Deut 25:11-12
11 If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.
11 If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Deut 25:11-12 11 If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity. |
Gen 38:8-10
8Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.’ 9But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.
QUOTE
Deut 22:13-21
13 Suppose a man marries a woman, but after going in to her, he dislikes her 14and makes up charges against her, slandering her by saying, ‘I married this woman; but when I lay with her, I did not find evidence of her virginity.’ 15The father of the young woman and her mother shall then submit the evidence of the young woman’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16The father of the young woman shall say to the elders: ‘I gave my daughter in marriage to this man but he dislikes her; 17now he has made up charges against her, saying, “I did not find evidence of your daughter’s virginity.” But here is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ Then they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. 18The elders of that town shall take the man and punish him; 19they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver (which they shall give to the young woman’s father) because he has slandered a virgin of Israel. She shall remain his wife; he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, this charge is true, that evidence of the young woman’s virginity was not found, 21then they shall bring the young woman out to the entrance of her father’s house and the men of her town shall stone her to death, because she committed a disgraceful act in Israel by prostituting herself in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
13 Suppose a man marries a woman, but after going in to her, he dislikes her 14and makes up charges against her, slandering her by saying, ‘I married this woman; but when I lay with her, I did not find evidence of her virginity.’ 15The father of the young woman and her mother shall then submit the evidence of the young woman’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16The father of the young woman shall say to the elders: ‘I gave my daughter in marriage to this man but he dislikes her; 17now he has made up charges against her, saying, “I did not find evidence of your daughter’s virginity.” But here is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ Then they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. 18The elders of that town shall take the man and punish him; 19they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver (which they shall give to the young woman’s father) because he has slandered a virgin of Israel. She shall remain his wife; he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, this charge is true, that evidence of the young woman’s virginity was not found, 21then they shall bring the young woman out to the entrance of her father’s house and the men of her town shall stone her to death, because she committed a disgraceful act in Israel by prostituting herself in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
Frau,
Will you throwing stones? God commands you to!
Physfan
Actually, imho, the main reason to distrust the book you are reading is that it is a translated copy of original Scripture. The writings are very clear that if anyone alters Scripture or what is written, that person is going to Hell. There is no greater mangling of Scripture than translating it.
Believing a translated/mangled copy of the Bible is against the copied warnings within. It would be like trying to pay for groceries with photocopied money. The intent of the scripture is lost through translation, and by believing the mangled scripture, one is risking a paradox. You're believing the Bible, except for the parts that tell you to distrust scripture that is altered.
Anyway, this doesn't matter; we're not done naming all the animals. Adam first job is to name all the animals, and we're working on it
Believing a translated/mangled copy of the Bible is against the copied warnings within. It would be like trying to pay for groceries with photocopied money. The intent of the scripture is lost through translation, and by believing the mangled scripture, one is risking a paradox. You're believing the Bible, except for the parts that tell you to distrust scripture that is altered.
Anyway, this doesn't matter; we're not done naming all the animals. Adam first job is to name all the animals, and we're working on it
dilbert
Although this seems right, saying it is like telling God "This is the way you should do it, not your way."
I am reminded of the people of Jerusalem when Jesus came was expecting a powerfully warrior to take back their land for them. But he came as a servant, different than everyone had expected, so some dismissed him saying "This is the way God is going to work, Jesus cant possibly be the Messiah." Now people are saying the same thing, "If God were real this is how he would be." and they dismiss God because it doesn't match what they want.
For some reason, I don't know why for I am only human - created not creator, God chooses to do it in this way.
Physfan:
Although this seems right, saying it is like telling God "This is the way you should do it, not your way."
I am reminded of the people of Jerusalem when Jesus came was expecting a powerfully warrior to take back their land for them. But he came as a servant, different than everyone had expected, so some dismissed him saying "This is the way God is going to work, Jesus cant possibly be the Messiah." Now people are saying the same thing, "If God were real this is how he would be." and they dismiss God because it doesn't match what they want.
For some reason, I don't know why for I am only human - created not creator, God chooses to do it in this way.
Physfan:
Will you throwing stones? God commands you to!
I am not sure what you are asking/saying, but quit taking the Bible out of context. What many people don't see/believe is that the first part of the Bible (Old Testament) is showing that we need God, we need a savior, a sacrifice. Your quotes were the punishment before the sacrifice was paid. They were the governmental law, the government if you will. So if ever anyone had a question they would look it up to see what the laws told them to do.
All the old laws died, however, there was no more use to them, when Jesus died on the cross. The curtain in the tabernacle ripped, signifying the end of the old laws and starting a new life. Jesus, was that sacrifice that the whole old testament was working toward.
El_Machinae
What you are saying is that if I have actually studied the original Greek and Hebrew then, and only then would the scriptures be correct? What If they mean the same, the Greek and the English, would the English still be incorrect? I am going to have to study more on this. I haven't even heard this argument before. I'll find out a reason why that is either true or false.
QUOTE
Part of me thinks that if the Christina God exists, you would know, absolutely. You would not be reading about him/her. He/she would be here now, in the present, and unmistakable. Perhaps a booming voice from the sky. “Hello, I am God! Here I am. Obey me…”
Although this seems right, saying it is like telling God "This is the way you should do it, not your way."
I am reminded of the people of Jerusalem when Jesus came was expecting a powerfully warrior to take back their land for them. But he came as a servant, different than everyone had expected, so some dismissed him saying "This is the way God is going to work, Jesus cant possibly be the Messiah." Now people are saying the same thing, "If God were real this is how he would be." and they dismiss God because it doesn't match what they want.
For some reason, I don't know why for I am only human - created not creator, God chooses to do it in this way.
Physfan:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Part of me thinks that if the Christina God exists, you would know, absolutely. You would not be reading about him/her. He/she would be here now, in the present, and unmistakable. Perhaps a booming voice from the sky. “Hello, I am God! Here I am. Obey me…” |
Although this seems right, saying it is like telling God "This is the way you should do it, not your way."
I am reminded of the people of Jerusalem when Jesus came was expecting a powerfully warrior to take back their land for them. But he came as a servant, different than everyone had expected, so some dismissed him saying "This is the way God is going to work, Jesus cant possibly be the Messiah." Now people are saying the same thing, "If God were real this is how he would be." and they dismiss God because it doesn't match what they want.
For some reason, I don't know why for I am only human - created not creator, God chooses to do it in this way.
Physfan:
Will you throwing stones? God commands you to!
I am not sure what you are asking/saying, but quit taking the Bible out of context. What many people don't see/believe is that the first part of the Bible (Old Testament) is showing that we need God, we need a savior, a sacrifice. Your quotes were the punishment before the sacrifice was paid. They were the governmental law, the government if you will. So if ever anyone had a question they would look it up to see what the laws told them to do.
All the old laws died, however, there was no more use to them, when Jesus died on the cross. The curtain in the tabernacle ripped, signifying the end of the old laws and starting a new life. Jesus, was that sacrifice that the whole old testament was working toward.
El_Machinae
What you are saying is that if I have actually studied the original Greek and Hebrew then, and only then would the scriptures be correct? What If they mean the same, the Greek and the English, would the English still be incorrect? I am going to have to study more on this. I haven't even heard this argument before. I'll find out a reason why that is either true or false.
QUOTE (Frau_Heibert+Sep 25 2006, 08:24 PM)
dilbert
Although this seems right, saying it is like telling God "This is the way you should do it, not your way."
I am reminded of the people of Jerusalem when Jesus came was expecting a powerfully warrior to take back their land for them. But he came as a servant, different than everyone had expected, so some dismissed him saying "This is the way God is going to work, Jesus cant possibly be the Messiah." Now people are saying the same thing, "If God were real this is how he would be." and they dismiss God because it doesn't match what they want.
For some reason, I don't know why for I am only human - created not creator, God chooses to do it in this way.
If I knew God exists, and I started asking him/her for things I could see your point, but I am not. I ask for nothing. I can't ask something of someone when i don't know that somone exists. I am not telling God to do anything. According to the bible God is the one that is doing the asking. He is asking me to believe in him.
If God exists, and he created me, he create me with 5 senses, and yet has not made his presence known to me by any of those senses. He created us as logical creatures, yet he has not presented himself to us through logic or reason. Some of us have the ability to think abstractly, we can defer that there might be something out there that we cannot sense. But not everyone can do this. What about the mentally challenged? Does God not grant them the gift of eternal life?
I don't know. You say you believe in the Bible, Jesus, and God as portrayed by Christianity because it makes most sense to you. It seems to make least sense to me...
Although this seems right, saying it is like telling God "This is the way you should do it, not your way."
I am reminded of the people of Jerusalem when Jesus came was expecting a powerfully warrior to take back their land for them. But he came as a servant, different than everyone had expected, so some dismissed him saying "This is the way God is going to work, Jesus cant possibly be the Messiah." Now people are saying the same thing, "If God were real this is how he would be." and they dismiss God because it doesn't match what they want.
For some reason, I don't know why for I am only human - created not creator, God chooses to do it in this way.
If I knew God exists, and I started asking him/her for things I could see your point, but I am not. I ask for nothing. I can't ask something of someone when i don't know that somone exists. I am not telling God to do anything. According to the bible God is the one that is doing the asking. He is asking me to believe in him.
If God exists, and he created me, he create me with 5 senses, and yet has not made his presence known to me by any of those senses. He created us as logical creatures, yet he has not presented himself to us through logic or reason. Some of us have the ability to think abstractly, we can defer that there might be something out there that we cannot sense. But not everyone can do this. What about the mentally challenged? Does God not grant them the gift of eternal life?
I don't know. You say you believe in the Bible, Jesus, and God as portrayed by Christianity because it makes most sense to you. It seems to make least sense to me...
QUOTE (Frau_Heibert+Sep 25 2006, 08:24 PM)
El_Machinae
What you are saying is that if I have actually studied the original Greek and Hebrew then, and only then would the scriptures be correct? What If they mean the same, the Greek and the English, would the English still be incorrect? I am going to have to study more on this. I haven't even heard this argument before. I'll find out a reason why that is either true or false.
There are a host of translation errors in the english Bible; if nothing else, a failure to capture the intent of what was originally recorded. Bats aren't fowl and rabbits don't chew their cud and all that. Now, with a little bit of research, we can easily see why those mistakes are made and work around them.
That doesn't change that fact that mistakes were made or that you can't be confident that all the mistakes are noted. You have to realise that the text you're reading is an impure copy of what was written. Now, here's the paradox ... the copy you're reading has a definite proscription against altering the scripture (and those who do are going to Hell). Do you choose to believe that, or not? Are the verses you're quoting impure copies? Certainly. Does this mean you're going to Hell? Only if you believe that the verses against mutating scripture are correct. If those verses are incorrect, the Bible is not inerrant.
What you are saying is that if I have actually studied the original Greek and Hebrew then, and only then would the scriptures be correct? What If they mean the same, the Greek and the English, would the English still be incorrect? I am going to have to study more on this. I haven't even heard this argument before. I'll find out a reason why that is either true or false.
There are a host of translation errors in the english Bible; if nothing else, a failure to capture the intent of what was originally recorded. Bats aren't fowl and rabbits don't chew their cud and all that. Now, with a little bit of research, we can easily see why those mistakes are made and work around them.
That doesn't change that fact that mistakes were made or that you can't be confident that all the mistakes are noted. You have to realise that the text you're reading is an impure copy of what was written. Now, here's the paradox ... the copy you're reading has a definite proscription against altering the scripture (and those who do are going to Hell). Do you choose to believe that, or not? Are the verses you're quoting impure copies? Certainly. Does this mean you're going to Hell? Only if you believe that the verses against mutating scripture are correct. If those verses are incorrect, the Bible is not inerrant.
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