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beckerist
http://www.physorg.com/news70638696.html

Duh. The most liberal profession on the planet, what did you expect?
jburchel
Amen. "Most scientists had not seen it". But "from those who had"... The idiots who go to see this movie are all mind-numbed robots following the marching orders of the New York Times. To call them scientists is using the word VERY loosely. How stupid. The movie is junk, alarmist political propaganda and the majority of people know it. Thank God we're still free to vote against idiots like this.
krreagan
QUOTE (jburchel+Jun 27 2006, 01:48 PM)
Amen. "Most scientists had not seen it". But "from those who had"... The idiots who go to see this movie are all mind-numbed robots following the marching orders of the New York Times. To call them scientists is using the word VERY loosely. How stupid. The movie is junk, alarmist political propaganda and the majority of people know it. Thank God we're still free to vote against idiots like this.

And what "mind-numbed robots" ideals do you follow? Bush's?, the brain dead talking head of the religious conservatives who feel the earth is for them to exploit at their whim with no regard for anything except their wallets?? From your (apparently) uneducated ramblings, that what I would assume!

Read the reports people, global warming is happening and humans are a non trivial part of the equation. The only part we can affect with any certainty! We are not the only cause of this largely natural cyclical occurrence, but we _are_ a part, and that's more certain then most "accepted" theories in physics!

Unfortunately, man is a very destructive animal and is very reluctant to see what's in front of his nose when it does not support his/her political/religious/social views, until it's too late! I hold little long-term hope for the earth! Mans scorched earth approach to exploiting the natural resources will accelerate and eventually kill _all_ natural habitats on Earth!

Krreagan
Da Gringo
The worlds life and survival is in our hands. We shall lead the way. Use the Peter Principal and raise those who are detrimental to the well being of mankind to a position neutrality.
Da Gringo
curious1
I am always waffling back and forth about how much damage we directly cause to the environment vs how much nature shifts on it's own.

But after reading several 'alarmist' articles lately about how Greenland's ice is melting faster than anyone could have remotely predicted LAST YEAR, and if it keeps up this pace, if the entire ice sloughs into the ocean, within 50 years the sea will rise 23 feet and all coastal cities will be underwater. Hrm.

I think alarmism isn't such a bad idea anymore.

The movie is POLITICAL propaganda?
Here's what Wikpedia has to say about Al Gore's JOB TODAY:
"Gore currently is President of the American television channel Current and Chairman of Generation Investment Management, a director on the board of Apple Computer, and an unofficial advisor to Google's senior management."

I don't see politics there, do you? He just manages Apple Computer and advises Google. I think he got really disgusted after winning the popular vote and losing the election.

QUOTE
The AP contacted more than 100 top climate researchers by e-mail and phone for their opinion. Among those contacted were vocal skeptics of climate change theory. Most scientists had not seen the movie, which is in limited release, or read the book.

But those who have seen it had the same general impression: Gore conveyed the science correctly; the world is getting hotter and it is a manmade catastrophe-in-the-making caused by the burning of fossil fuels.

"Excellent," said William Schlesinger, dean of the Nicholas School of Environment and Earth Sciences at Duke University. "He got all the important material and got it right."

Robert Corell, chairman of the worldwide Arctic Climate Impact Assessment group of scientists, read the book and saw Gore give the slideshow presentation that is woven throughout the documentary.

"I sat there and I'm amazed at how thorough and accurate," Corell said. "After the presentation I said, `Al, I'm absolutely blown away. There's a lot of details you could get wrong.' ... I could find no error."


Where do you see politics in the above article by Physorg?

lengould
QUOTE (Original Article+)
"mostly got the science right, said all 19 climate scientists who had seen the movie or read the book and answered questions from The Associated Press."


I fail to see why political views should carry any weight at all in resolving scientific questions. Anyone who's views are influenced by politics is NOT a scientist and doesn't understand the scientific method. Get some education first.

beckerist
Anyone who believes that politics doesn't involve itself in everything it possibly can is misguided. Read the Constitution.
~JS

http://slipperyfish.net/blog/index.php/200...ng_warm_outside
rubberman
Why would anyone who honestly beleives global warming to be a myth even be at this website? Shouldn't they be busy burning witches and branding slaves?
beckerist
No, I'm not partial to murdering people...

I'm not dismissing global warming off as a myth, but I AM dismissing humans as being the primary cause. Everything EVERYONE says about this topic is either an unsubstantiated claim OR subjective. There is no hard evidence supporting ANYTHING outside that this is a cyclical event occuring every few thousand years. Did that theory mention humans? No! Where do you guys come off thinking we have anything to do that? If anything, this only proves to me that (along with you,) Al Gore is greedy...but hey, what do I know?
~JS
adoucette
In case anyone is interested, the latest NRC document is out and the "Hockey Stick" has been officially broken. Mann got a slap on the wrist for his lack of openness.

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309102251/html

IPCC is going to need a new posterboy and graph.

Oh, and by the way, we really don't know what is happening to Greenland's Ice mass IN TOTAL. While we have coastal erosion, at the same time we have central thickening. There is more center than edges though. Denmark is putting in a number of new monitoring stations to try to understand what is ACTUALLY happening.

Arthur
curious1
Hi Arthur,

I'm not sure I understand the meaning of the term 'the hockey stick is broken'.

Everything I read has supported and vindicated Mann, who showed the 'hockey stick' graph of climactic temp change.

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/promethe...tion_to_th.html

http://www.desmogblog.com/nrc-exonerates-h...nadian-skeptics

If Mann was vindicated and his hockey stick proclaimed accurate this last week... how was his hockey stick broken??
lengould
argg.. curious1: don't get arthur going again on the "hockey stick", he'll have a stroke.

Gotta admit though that those graphs in the referenced article "skims" http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309102251/html/75.html pp. 75 for boreholes, when intergated across continents, have a distinctly upward turning appearance in the most recent century, sorta reminds one of the blade of a particular piece of sporting equipment....

.. also "Low Latitude Mountain Glacier Ice Core composite" pp 67 at http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309102251/html/67.html shows a definite recent abrupt temp. rise over a ?1200? yr history.

Nothing (that I've seen yet) in review provides significant amunition to refute Mann.



adoucette
QUOTE (curious1+Jun 28 2006, 01:17 PM)
Hi Arthur,

I'm not sure I understand the meaning of the term 'the hockey stick is broken'.

Everything I read has supported and vindicated Mann, who showed the 'hockey stick' graph of climactic temp change.

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/promethe...tion_to_th.html

http://www.desmogblog.com/nrc-exonerates-h...nadian-skeptics

If Mann was vindicated and his hockey stick proclaimed accurate this last week... how was his hockey stick broken??

Curious,

I suggest you read the ORIGINAL REPORT.

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309102251/html/104.html

Is a good place to start if you are concerned about this issue.

It seems almost like clockwork in Climate Debate that a report like this comes out and both sides "Claim Victory".

Mann's reconstruction essentially did away with the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. This report restores them and also says the LEVEL of CERTAINTY that Mann (and the IPCC) used for its claims were not justifiable nor were they valid over the length of time they claimed.

What Mann & the IPCC claimed is it was warmer now than the LAST 1,000 YEARS.

What the report said: (pg 17)

Large-scale surface temperature reconstructions yield a generally consistent picture of temperature trends during the preceding millennium, including relatively warm conditions centered around A.D. 1000 (identified by some as the “Medieval Warm Period”) and a relatively cold period (or “Little Ice Age”) centered around 1700. The existence and extent of a Little Ice Age from roughly 1500 to 1850 is supported by a wide variety of evidence including ice cores, tree rings, borehole temperatures, glacier length records, and historical documents. Evidence for
regional warmth during medieval times can be found in a diverse but more limited set of records including ice cores, tree rings, marine sediments, and historical sources from Europe and Asia, but the exact timing and duration of warm periods may have varied from region to region, and the magnitude and geographic extent of the warmth are uncertain.
• It can be said with a high level of confidence that global mean surface temperature was higher during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period during the preceding four centuries. This statement is justified by the consistency of the evidence based on a wide variety of geographically diverse proxies.
• Less confidence can be placed in large-scale surface temperature reconstructions for the period from A.D. 900 to 1600. Presently available proxy evidence indicates that temperatures at many, but not all, individual locations were higher during the past 25 years than during any period of comparable length since A.D. 900.


They then present a NEW graph which looks NOTHING LIKE the Hockey Stick.
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309102251/html/106.html
User posted image
http://darwin.nap.edu/openbook/0309102251/gifmid/106.gif

A more recent and complete description of what we know about the climate of the last two millennia can be gleaned from an inspection of Figure O-5, which was prepared by this committee to show the instrumental record compiled from traditional thermometer readings, several large-scale surface temperature reconstructions based on different kinds of proxy evidence, and results from a few paleoclimate model simulations.

The slap on the wrist is because of Mann's reluctance to share data and algorithms thus preventing independent analysis of his claims. They also pointed out that the criticisms were valid (though some were minor), none the less, the inclusion of this in this NATIONAL REPORT was a MAJOR rebuke to Mann. Ask anyone in science if they can produce a similar example, and you will find that this kind of written chapter subject is VERY rare and only done when the people doing the report are making a point.):

There have been criticisms of the techniques used to create large-scale surface temperature reconstructions and, in particular, of the work done by Mann et al. (e.g., Zorita and von Storch 2001; McIntyre and McKitrick 2003, 2005a,b; von Storch et al. 2004; Moberg et al. 2005).

And this was also a rebuke to Mann for his long term reluctance to share his data and algorithms:

Our view is that all research benefits from full and open access to published
datasets and that a clear explanation of analytical methods is mandatory. Peers should have access to the information needed to reproduce published results, so that increased confidence in the outcome of the study can be generated inside and outside the scientific community. Other committees and organizations have produced an extensive body of literature on the importance of open access to scientific data and on the related guidelines for data archiving and data access (e.g., NRC 1995). Paleoclimate research would benefit if individual researchers, professional societies, journal editors, and funding agencies continued to improve their efforts to ensure that these existing open access practices are followed.


The fact of the matter is Mann's Hockey Stick is HISTORY, but more importantly, had he been open with his data this would have been settled MANY years ago.

As to Greenland, you have to look to find the reports, but they are out there, there is no doubt that the interior is INCREASING, so reports of Greenland melting are a tad premature.

a study by five scientists from Norway, Russia and the US published by Science magazine in November 2005. That study did report that the ice sheet in the interior of Greenland had grown thicker over the 11 years ending in 2003. But it reached no conclusion about whether "Greenland's glaciers" were growing or melting overall. The study said it is conceivable that melting at the coast more than offset the growth in the interior, and that the "the 11-year-long data set developed here remains too brief to establish long-term trends." It called for more measurement by newer, better satellite sensors to calculate what is going on with Greenland's glaciers overall.

Arthur
lengould
Arthur: You gotta admit, that second graph you present DOES look a lot like a hockey stick, if somewhat bowed on the handle (which I gather is your argument). Still, there is a significant rise in temp since industrial revolution.
curious1
Hi Arthur, I'm going to read up more on the subject, the subject of global warming is barely at my threshold for mind-numbingly boring tongue.gif .

I need a day or 2 to get caught up with things I have to do (which I've been neglecting because this forum is so interesting) and then go read the mind numbing global warming papers and links you posted.

In either case, I know I don't know much on the topic, so I doubt there's much 'debate' thats going to take place on my part... more like a LOT of questions:P.
adoucette
QUOTE (lengould+Jun 28 2006, 04:44 PM)
Arthur: You gotta admit, that second graph you present DOES look a lot like a hockey stick, if somewhat bowed on the handle (which I gather is your argument). Still, there is a significant rise in temp since industrial revolution.

Well its clearly not a "Hockey Stick" but what is more important is this shows that temps HAVE BEEN AS WARM BEFORE the industrial era.

Its NOT that temps are rising in the last half of the 20th century (though not in the first half) that is the issue, its the CAUSATION.

Which is why I strongly support the "No Regrets" approach.

Go after CH4, NOx, SOx, CFCs and Soot.

They have NO redeeming value, most of them are significantly NEGATIVE to health and most of them have much shorter life expectancy than CO2 so attacking these gives a FAR GREATER bang for the buck and have no serious negative economic consequenses. They all contribute to global warming and together they have significant forcing values.

The rising price of Oil is sufficient to curtail oil use and drive the move to alternate energy/efficiency.

I believe that going after Soot would have the most significant impact on both Arctic ice melting and local air quality and, unlike CO2, any reductions would be felt almost immediately.

Soot's impact to health is also large as curtailing it would also eliminate a significant release of radioactivity (far more than all Nukes put together) and heavy (very toxic) metals into the environment

Personally from what I've read over the years I think Soot is by far the most underestimated climate forcer there is as well as a serious heath issue.

CH4 is 30 times as powerful a GHG as CO2 and more than 1/2 is man-made (unlike CO2 which only a small percent comes from man-made sources) and thus we could do a lot to reduce CH4 and we could do it relatively quickly. We could even address a number of the non-manmade souces as well, assuming that doing so is environmentally sound.

We've discussed CFCs and while we have made great progress, more could be done (particularly in 3rd world countries), again, they are ALL man-made and we can fairly easily replace the long-lived gases with short lived gasses that have lower GWP values.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (curious1+Jun 28 2006, 04:48 PM)
Hi Arthur, I'm going to read up more on the subject, the subject of global warming is barely at my threshold for mind-numbingly boring tongue.gif .

I need a day or 2 to get caught up with things I have to do (which I've been neglecting because this forum is so interesting) and then go read the mind numbing global warming papers and links you posted.

In either case, I know I don't know much on the topic, so I doubt there's much 'debate' thats going to take place on my part... more like a LOT of questions:P.

There are a number of decent threads here that you could review.

Here's one that is similar to the first question you asked me.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=84824

Or do a search on Global Warming in general.

This recent one was also good: http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=73844

The good topics have a lot of replies.

Arthur
curious1
Hi Arthur:).

I took a quick look at the links you referenced of past notes. Most of them were dated March and April 2006.

Here's a paste from the link I gave you earlier. It's dated June 22, 2006 from the University of Colorado:
QUOTE
My reading of the summary of the report and parts of the text is that the NAS has rendered a near-complete vindication for the work of Mann et al. They report does acknowledge that there are perhaps greater uncertainties in temperature reconstructions, reducing Mann et al.'s claim of warmest decade/year in 1,000 years down to 400. Nonetheless, I see nothing in the report that suggests that Mann's research is significantly flawed, nor any calls for release of his data or algorithms, though the report does say in very general terms that such release is a good idea. I am not a climate scientist, but my reading of the section that deals with criticisms of Mann et al.'s work (starting at p. 105) is that while these critiques raise some interesting points, they are minor issues, and the committee find's Mann et al.’s original conclusion to be "plausible." I’d bet that the word "plausible" will be oft invoked as one of the take home messages of the report.

So what to make of this? The NRC has come to the conclusion that the hockey stick debate is much ado about nothing, and make the further point that this particular area of science is not particularly relevant to detection and attribution of human caused climate change. I am certain that research on this subject will continue, but hopefully this NAS report will allow the rest of us to focus on the policy debate rather than this particular issue of science.

I would have liked to see the report get into far more detail on science policy questions, such as release of data, methods, code, etc. and mechanisms of peer review, and IPCC authors reviewing their own work. However, I recognize that these issues may have been interpreted as outside their charge and the committee was not empanelled for this purpose.

Is this the final word on the "hockey stick"? My guess is that for most people, yes, especially if Representative Boehlert, who requested the report, is satisfied with the answers to his questions.

Posted on June 22, 2006 09:07 AM


This is what I posted earlier... seems like the 'hockey stick' was vindicated per this article... not debunked?? It was written 7 days ago, not months ago.

Here's the 2nd linked article I posted earlier again, it was written June 23, 2006, 6 days ago: http://www.desmogblog.com/nrc-exonerates-h...nadian-skeptics

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
My reading of the summary of the report and parts of the text is that the NAS has rendered a near-complete vindication for the work of Mann et al. They report does acknowledge that there are perhaps greater uncertainties in temperature reconstructions, reducing Mann et al.'s claim of warmest decade/year in 1,000 years down to 400. Nonetheless, I see nothing in the report that suggests that Mann's research is significantly flawed, nor any calls for release of his data or algorithms, though the report does say in very general terms that such release is a good idea. I am not a climate scientist, but my reading of the section that deals with criticisms of Mann et al.'s work (starting at p. 105) is that while these critiques raise some interesting points, they are minor issues, and the committee find's Mann et al.’s original conclusion to be "plausible." I’d bet that the word "plausible" will be oft invoked as one of the take home messages of the report.

So what to make of this? The NRC has come to the conclusion that the hockey stick debate is much ado about nothing, and make the further point that this particular area of science is not particularly relevant to detection and attribution of human caused climate change. I am certain that research on this subject will continue, but hopefully this NAS report will allow the rest of us to focus on the policy debate rather than this particular issue of science.

I would have liked to see the report get into far more detail on science policy questions, such as release of data, methods, code, etc. and mechanisms of peer review, and IPCC authors reviewing their own work. However, I recognize that these issues may have been interpreted as outside their charge and the committee was not empanelled for this purpose.

Is this the final word on the "hockey stick"? My guess is that for most people, yes, especially if Representative Boehlert, who requested the report, is satisfied with the answers to his questions.

Posted on June 22, 2006 09:07 AM


This is what I posted earlier... seems like the 'hockey stick' was vindicated per this article... not debunked?? It was written 7 days ago, not months ago.

Here's the 2nd linked article I posted earlier again, it was written June 23, 2006, 6 days ago: http://www.desmogblog.com/nrc-exonerates-h...nadian-skeptics

Mann's "hockey stick" graph was the subject of an attack by Stephen McIntyre, a statistician and part-time consultant in Toronto to minerals industries, and Ross McKitrick, an economist at the University of Guelph in Ontario.  The attack was the subject of a front page story in the Wall Street Journal.

Science Panel Backs Study on Warming Climate

The New York Times, June 22, 2006 

WASHINGTON, June 22 — A controversial paper asserting that recent warming in the Northern Hemisphere was probably unrivaled for 1,000 years was endorsed today, with a few reservations, by a panel convened by the nation's pre-eminent scientific body.

The panel said that a statistical method used in the 1999 study was not the best and that some uncertainties in the work "have been underestimated," and it particularly challenged the authors' conclusion that the decade of the 1990's was probably the warmest in a millennium.  

But in a 155-page report, the 12-member panel convened by the National Academies said "an array of evidence" supported the main thrust of the paper.
Disputes over details, it said, reflected the normal intellectual clash that takes place as science tests new approaches to old questions.


The study, led by Michael E. Mann, a climatologist now at Pennsylvania State University, was the first to estimate widespread climate trends by stitching together a grab bag of evidence, including variations in ancient tree rings and temperatures measured in deep holes in the earth.

 
It has been repeatedly attacked by Republican lawmakers and some business-financed groups as built on cherry-picked data meant to create an alarming view of recent warming and play down past natural warm periods.

 
At a news conference at the headquarters of the National Academies, several members of the panel reviewing the study said they saw no sign that its authors had intentionally chosen data sets or methods to get a desired result.

 
"I saw nothing that spoke to me of any manipulation," said one member, Peter Bloomfield, a statistics professor at North Carolina State University. He added that his impression was the study was "an honest attempt to construct a data analysis procedure."

  More broadly, the panel examined other recent research comparing the pronounced warming trend over the last several decades with temperature shifts over the last 2,000 years. It expressed high confidence that warming over the last 25 years exceeded any peaks since 1600. And in a news conference here today, three panelists said the current warming was probably, but not certainly, beyond any peaks since the year 900.
The experts said there was no reliable way to make estimates for surface-temperature trends in the first millennium A.D.

In the report, the panel stressed that the significant remaining uncertainties about climate patterns over the last 2,000 years did not weaken the scientific case that the current warming trend was caused mainly by people, through the buildup of heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.  

"Surface temperature reconstructions for periods prior to the industrial era are only one of multiple lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that climatic warming is occurring in response to human activities, and they are not the primary evidence," the report said.

 
The 1999 paper is part of a growing body of work trying to pull together widely disparate clues of climate conditions before the age of weather instruments.
 
The paper includes a graph of temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere that gained the nickname "hockey stick" because of its vivid depiction of a long period with little temperature variation for nearly 1,000 years, followed by a sharp upward hook in recent decades.
 
The hockey stick has become something of an environmentalist icon. It was prominently displayed in a pivotal 2001 United Nations report concluding that greenhouse gases from human activities had probably caused most of the warming measured since 1950. A version of it is in the Al Gore documentary "An Inconvenient Truth."
 
Senator James M. Inhofe, Republican of Oklahoma, and Representative Joe Barton, Republican of Texas, have repeatedly criticized the Mann study, citing several peer-reviewed papers challenging its methods.

The main critiques were done by Stephen McIntyre, a statistician and part-time consultant in Toronto to minerals industries, and Ross McKitrick, an economist at the University of Guelph in Ontario.
 
They contended that Dr. Mann and his colleagues selected particular statistical methods and sets of data, like a record of rings in bristlecone pine trees, that were most apt to produce a picture of unusual recent warming. They also complained that Dr. Mann refused to share his data and techniques.

 
In an interview, Dr. Mann expressed muted satisfaction with the panel's findings. He said it clearly showed that the 1999 analysis has held up over time.

 
But he complained that the committee seemed to forget about the many caveats that were in the original paper. "Even the title of the paper on which all this has been based is as much about the caveats and uncertainties as it is about the findings," he said.

 
Raymond S. Bradley, a University of Massachusetts geoscientist and one of Dr. Mann's co-authors, said that the caveats were dropped mainly as the graph was widely reproduced by others. (The other author of the 1999 paper was Malcolm K Hughes of the University of Arizona.)

 
The report was done at the request of Representative Sherwood Boehlert, the New York Republican who is chairman of the House Science Committee, who called last November for a review of the 1999 study and related research to clear the air.

In a statement, Mr. Boehlert, who is retiring at the end of the year, expressed satisfaction with the results, saying, "There is nothing in this report that should raise any doubts about the broad scientific consensus on global climate change — which doesn't rest primarily on these temperature issues, in any event — or any doubts about whether any paper on the temperature records was legitimate scientific work."

National panel supports '98 global warming evidence


The Boston Globe,  June 23, 2006

A signature piece of evidence for global warming -- a compilation of data showing that a sharp rise in temperatures made the late 20th century the warmest period in 1,000 years -- is probably true, a national panel of scientific specialists concluded yesterday.

A graph of the data has become an icon of global warming and is often referred to as ``the hockey stick" because of its shape: A shaft that shows a long period of relatively little change in Northern Hemisphere surface temperatures, and then a spike upward during the last 100 years or so that resembles the blade.

Since the first version of it was published in a scientific journal in 1998, environmentalists have seized on the graph as powerful evidence of human-induced climate change, while some critics have called it alarmist, questioning its methodology and the accuracy of its temperature data.
Last year, the dispute catapulted into the national political arena after Joe Barton, a Texas Republican who is chairman of the House Energy Committee, asked the three authors of the 1998 study -- including a University of Massachusetts professor -- for a detailed accounting of their government and private funding, data, and methods. A range of scientists and other legislators blasted the request as an intimidation tactic, contending that other researchers would be reluctant to embark on such studies if they knew they would be under such scrutiny by members of Congress.

The National Academy of Sciences, which advises Congress and the government, was then asked to conduct an independent review by the chairman of the House Science Committee, Republican Sherwood L. Boehlert of New York.
``Our conclusion is that this recent period of warming is likely the warmest in the last millennium," said John M. Wallace, one of the 12 panel members and a professor of atmospheric sciences at the University of Washington.

During a Washington press conference yesterday, other members of the panel said that they had a high level of confidence -- 90 percent to 95 percent -- that the planet is in its warmest period in 400 years and that the odds are ``2 to 1" that this is probably the warmest period stretching back 1,000 years, as the original study concluded.
The panelists had far less confidence in the reliability of temperature data from longer than 1,000 years ago; the initial study did not look that far back. And they said that because it was difficult to reconstruct exact temperatures for specific years, they were unable to support the study's contention that the 1990s were the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, at the time of the study , in the past 1,000 years.

Still, Wallace said, the general trend holds true: ``This doesn't change the scientific landscape in terms of the greenhouse warming debate," he said.
Scientists widely believe that power plant and car emissions of carbon dioxide that become trapped in the atmosphere are the primary cause of the earth's temperature rise of about 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit in the past century. The 1998 study supports that view -- the rise in temperature coincided with the Industrial Revolution -- but scientists have amassed other long-term evidence, including the retreat of glaciers and the melting of polar ice caps.

Because reliable temperature records stretch back only about 150 years, scientists must infer past temperature and climate data from natural archives, such as tree-growth rings, corals, ice cores, and cave deposits. For example, trees at high latitudes and altitudes grow faster during warmer periods, so scientists can determine how warm it was from the size of growth rings. The thickness of sediment layers at the bottom of certain lakes also provides temperature clues because the increase in snow melt in warmer periods washes more sediment into lakes. Scientists also examine other records, such as historical accounts of wine harvests or paintings of glaciers in northern regions.
Scientists had been gathering data from these indirect methods for years, but they had not been put together until Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University, Raymond Bradley of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, and Malcolm Hughes of the University of Arizona created a statistical model that enabled them to construct a 1,000-year temperature record and plotted the results on an easy-to-read graph. A version of the graph going back 600 years was published in their 1998 study in Nature. An expanded one stretching back 1,000 years was part of a landmark 2001 international report on global warming that concluded humans were driving the rise in temperatures. The graph, the hockey stick, soon became the most recognized statistical visual of global warming, reproduced in media accounts the world over and more recently in former vice president Al Gore's movie ``An Inconvenient Truth."

It was also seized upon by critics. An economist and a minerals consultant in Canada uncovered inconsistencies in the model used to create the graph and questioned the use of certain data they said biased the results. Critics also said the methodology might have underestimated past periods of warming, especially a warm period that may have started about 1,000 years ago. If that is true, it would mean that the earth may have had a wider natural climate swing in the past millennium than scientists had believed -- possibly indicating the current warming trend is not such an anomaly.
Yesterday, panel members said there was isolated evidence of a warmer earth about 1,000 years ago, but it appeared regional. They suggested that it did not reflect the overall global temperature at the time. They also said that while there were certain biases in the report, they got roughly the same results as the initial study when they used different methodologies to put together the data. The report said that Mann's study had been supported by ``an array of evidence" in other studies and that his and his collaborators' findings were not even a primary piece of evidence of human-induced global warming.

Panel members said that while the earlier study was not perfect, Mann and his colleagues should be praised as the first to devise such detailed global temperature measurements and that its benefits far outweighed any detriments. However, in a nod to the difficulty some critics had in getting data from the original researchers to replicate the initial study, they urged climate researchers to more readily share their data. The panel also called for more research to improve the reliability of temperature estimates from before 1600.
``The hockey stick is alive and well," said Bradley, director of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst Climate System Research Center. He said the original research paper was never meant to be taken as absolute and even included the words ``uncertainties and limitations" in its title. ``Nothing changes the general shape."

The National Academy of Sciences study did not mollify critics, however, who said that great uncertainty still existed about temperatures prior to 1600. Those critics agree that the scientific data show a distinct warming from about 400 years ago until now, but ``substantially larger uncertainties" exist looking further back, said Ross McKitrick, an economist at the University of Guelph in Canada who has been one of the primary critics of the study.
A spokesman for Barton said a separate group of statisticians recruited by his energy committee was still examining the 1998 study. Barton spokesman Larry Neal said `` all we want to know is whether the numbers add up."


That's why I was puzzled.

And I thought you were going to post conflicting info written a few days ago, not months ago. These articles appeared in news within the last week. I posted them in near entirety so you didn't have to click the links I originally posted to look.

I'm not sure how the 'hockey stick' was broken was based on these articles, which I linked for you in the last note. This because I don't know anything about hockey sticks, so I did a google on "global warming NRC hockey stick" and everything I found said that Mann was backed up and vindicated, not debunked.

Now I'm totally confused. The last links you gave were from months ago. These articles from days ago. Are you saying that within the week, they have DEBUNKED Mann's paper, yet all the news are reporting that he was VINDICATED?
curious1
Here are more supporting articles, published this week, from respected newspapers all over the US.

LA Times:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/f...rack=crosspromo

QUOTE
U.S. Panel Backs Data on Global Warming
Growing Washington acceptance of climate change is seen in the top science body's finding.
By Thomas H. Maugh II and Karen Kaplan, Times Staff Writers
June 23, 2006


After a comprehensive review of climate change data, the nation's preeminent scientific body found that average temperatures on Earth had risen by about 1 degree over the last century, a development that "is unprecedented for the last 400 years and potentially the last several millennia."

The report from the National Research Council also concluded that "human activities are responsible for much of the recent warming."

Coupled with a report last month from the Bush administration's Climate Change Science Program that found "clear evidence of human influences on the climate system," the new study from the council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, signals a growing acceptance in Washington of widely held scientific views on the causes of global warming.

The council's review focused on the controversial "hockey stick" graph, which shows Earth's temperature remaining stable for 900 years then suddenly arching upward in the last century. The curve resembles a hockey stick laid on its side.

The panel dismissed critics' charges that fraud and statistical error were responsible for the graph's sharp upward swing, noting that many studies had confirmed its essential conclusions in the eight years since it was first published in the journal Nature.
"There is nothing in this report that should raise any doubts about the broad scientific consensus on global climate change … or any doubts about whether any paper on the temperature records was legitimate scientific work," said House Science Committee Chairman Sherwood Boehlert (R-N.Y.), who requested the study in November.

The finding was a rebuke to global warming skeptics and some conservative politicians who have attacked the hockey stick as the work of overzealous scientists determined to shame the government into imposing environmental regulations on big business.


This is from NBC, dated June 22, 2006: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13474997/
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
U.S. Panel Backs Data on Global Warming
Growing Washington acceptance of climate change is seen in the top science body's finding.
By Thomas H. Maugh II and Karen Kaplan, Times Staff Writers
June 23, 2006


After a comprehensive review of climate change data, the nation's preeminent scientific body found that average temperatures on Earth had risen by about 1 degree over the last century, a development that "is unprecedented for the last 400 years and potentially the last several millennia."

The report from the National Research Council also concluded that "human activities are responsible for much of the recent warming."

Coupled with a report last month from the Bush administration's Climate Change Science Program that found "clear evidence of human influences on the climate system," the new study from the council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, signals a growing acceptance in Washington of widely held scientific views on the causes of global warming.

The council's review focused on the controversial "hockey stick" graph, which shows Earth's temperature remaining stable for 900 years then suddenly arching upward in the last century. The curve resembles a hockey stick laid on its side.

The panel dismissed critics' charges that fraud and statistical error were responsible for the graph's sharp upward swing, noting that many studies had confirmed its essential conclusions in the eight years since it was first published in the journal Nature.
"There is nothing in this report that should raise any doubts about the broad scientific consensus on global climate change … or any doubts about whether any paper on the temperature records was legitimate scientific work," said House Science Committee Chairman Sherwood Boehlert (R-N.Y.), who requested the study in November.

The finding was a rebuke to global warming skeptics and some conservative politicians who have attacked the hockey stick as the work of overzealous scientists determined to shame the government into imposing environmental regulations on big business.


This is from NBC, dated June 22, 2006: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13474997/
WASHINGTON - Weighing in on the highest profile debate about global warming, the nation's premier science policy body on Thursday voiced a "high level of confidence" that Earth is the hottest it has been in at least 400 years, and possibly even the last 2,000 years.

A panel convened by the National Research Council reached that conclusion in a broad review of scientific studies, reporting that the evidence indicates “recent warmth is unprecedented for at least the last 400 years.”

The panel of top climate scientists told lawmakers that the Earth is running a fever and that “human activities are responsible for much of the recent warming.” Their 155-page report said average global surface temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere rose about 1 degree F during the 20th century.


Yahoo News - June 23, 2006: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/global_warming;...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

QUOTE
WASHINGTON - The Earth is running a slight fever from greenhouse gases, after enjoying relatively stable temperatures for 2,000 years. The        National Academy of Sciences, after reconstructing global average surface temperatures for the past two millennia, said Thursday the data are "additional supporting evidence ... that human activities are responsible for much of the recent warming."

Other new research showed that global warming produced about half of the extra hurricane-fueled warmth in the North Atlantic in 2005, and natural cycles were a minor factor, according to Kevin Trenberth and Dennis Shea of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, a research lab sponsored by the National Science Foundation and universities.

The academy had been asked to report to Congress on how researchers drew conclusions about the Earth's climate going back thousands of years, before data was available from modern scientific instruments. The academy convened a panel of 12 climate experts, chaired by Gerald North, a geosciences professor at Texas A&M University, to look at the "proxy" evidence before then, such as tree rings, corals, marine and lake sediments, ice cores, boreholes and glaciers.

Combining that information gave the panel "a high level of confidence that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any comparable period in the last 400 years," the panel wrote. It said the "recent warmth is unprecedented for at least the last 400 years and potentially the last several millennia," though it was relatively warm around the year 1000 followed by a "Little Ice Age" from about 1500 to 1850.

Their conclusions were meant to address, and they lent credibility to, a well-known graphic among climate researchers — a "hockey-stick" chart that climate scientists Michael Mann, Raymond Bradley and Malcolm Hughes created in the late 1990s to show the Northern Hemisphere was the warmest it has been in 2,000 years.

It had compared the sharp curve of the hockey blade to the recent uptick in temperatures — a 1 degree rise in global average surface temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere during the 20th century — and the stick's long shaft to centuries of previous climate stability.

That research is "likely" true and is supported by more recent data, said John "Mike" Wallace, an atmospheric sciences professor at the University of Washington and a panel member.

Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (news, bio, voting record), R-N.Y., chairman of the House Science Committee, had asked the academy for the report last year after the House Energy and Commerce Committee chairman, Rep. Joe Barton (news, bio, voting record), R-Texas, launched an investigation of the three climate scientists.

The Bush administration has maintained that the threat from global warming is not severe enough to warrant new pollution controls that the White House says would have cost 5 million Americans their jobs.

"This report shows the value of Congress handling scientific disputes by asking scientists to give us guidance," Boehlert said Thursday. "There is nothing in this report that should raise any doubts about the broad scientific consensus on global climate change."

The academy panel said it had less confidence in the evidence of temperatures before 1600.

But it considered the evidence reliable enough to conclude there were sharp spikes in carbon dioxide and methane, the two major "greenhouse" gases blamed for trapping heat in the atmosphere, beginning in the 20th century, after remaining fairly level for 12,000 years.

Between 1 A.D. and 1850, volcanic eruptions and solar fluctuations had the biggest effects on climate. But those temperature changes "were much less pronounced than the warming due to greenhouse gas" levels by pollution since the mid-19th century, the panel said.

The National Academy of Sciences is a private organization chartered by Congress to advise the government of scientific matters.


Um... I found not a single article that supported the statement that the 'hockey stick' was broken. Every single article, and there are literally hundreds, I just selected the more prominent ones, stated that Mann's study was probably correct.

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time Arthur, I thought maybe you read the new report wrong. At least now I know what a hockey stick is:P.
lengould
Trust the Wall Street J to carry the "anti-Mann" line. Wonder why BushII only attacking NY Times over leaking, when 4 papers published simultaneously. Recidivism is one claim. There oughta be a law against repeatedly offending conservatives.
adoucette
QUOTE (curious1+Jun 29 2006, 02:00 AM)
Here are more supporting articles, published this week, from respected newspapers all over the US.

LA Times:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/f...rack=crosspromo



This is from NBC, dated June 22, 2006: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13474997/


Yahoo News - June 23, 2006: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/global_warming;...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl



Um... I found not a single article that supported the statement that the 'hockey stick' was broken. Every single article, and there are literally hundreds, I just selected the more prominent ones, stated that Mann's study was probably correct.

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time Arthur, I thought maybe you read the new report wrong. At least now I know what a hockey stick is:P.

The problem with most of these "respected papers" is they have all bought into the FACT of GLOBAL WARMING, when in fact the science is not nearly that certain.

Papers (and news outlets) SHOULDN'T have a bias, but they most clearly do, and as far as global warming goes, they most certainly do.

Which is why I directed you back to the ORIGINAL SOURCE.

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309102251/html/104.html

I didn't determine that the Hockey stick was broken by reading ANY news articles, I got that from reading the actual report.

Here is the original Mann graph from the last IPCC report:

http://www.climateaudit.org/wp-content/mbh99.jpg
User posted image

Mann and the IPCC (UN's inter-natl Panel on Climate Change) used this as their poster for their contention that the late 20th century warming was UNPRECEDENTED in the last 1,000 years and that the temperature trend STRONGLY CORRELATED with our rate of CO2 production.

Well what the report has done is get Mann to rework his data (due to errors found by M&M) and then they created a NEW DIAGRAM of the last 1,000 years. One that looks QUITE DIFFERENT than the Mann diagram.

http://darwin.nap.edu/openbook/0309102251/gifmid/106.gif
User posted image

Now what is striking about this new diagram is that the Medieval Warm Period is back as is the Little Ice Age. This is CRITICAL because both the IPCC and Mann claimed these were regional events but this new report establishes both as GLOBAL events. Why is this important? Because during the Medieval warm period they FARMED extensively in GREENLAND, they grew large wine orchards in England. Neither of which they can do today. As long as this was warming was considered a REGIONAL warming, then it could be ignored. The NAS has refuted that notion.

Which is why the wording "warmest in the last 1,000 years is now only PROBABLE" is NOT a vindication of Mann.

Why? because its BARELY warmer than 1,000 years ago, and ONLY in Mann's reconstruction. In Esper and Moberg's reconstructions its NOT warmer now, and by putting them in the same graph what the NAS has done is show that temps of the late 20th century ARE NOT UNPRECEDENTED and the Warming/Cooling no longer correlate to the graph of human CO2 production.

You see, now the wording they support (repeated multiple times in your articles) is

“recent warmth is unprecedented for at least the last 400 years.”

Which is NO BIG SURPRISE, since 400 years ago was during the DEPTHS of the LITTLE ICE AGE.

So now I ask you to take a look at the last 1,000 years from this NEW perspective.

1,000 years ago it was AS WARM AS IT IS NOW (or possibly warmer, there is a LOT of evidence to suggest it was), this was a time when MANKIND FLOURISHED, then it began to cool as the world entered what is known as the Little Ice Age, hitting bottom about 400 years ago, during this time hardship and starvation abounded as well as global diseases such as the Black plague. Then the climate switched again, a little after 1600 and slowly began to moderate, after a short but severe cold snap in the early 1800s, the climate began a steady warming trend, WAY BEFORE any significant anthropogenic CO2 release to the atmosphere. What's more the temperature trend from the early 1800s to now is quite LINEAR, while CO2 rise in the atmosphere did not begin in ernest till the middle of the 20th century, which makes it hard to show any correlation to CO2 at all. What the people who are blaming the warming on CO2 ignore is that the CO2 rise LAGS the warming trend.

OOPS.

Finally I refer you to the entire section DEVOTED to the MISTAKES that Mann made and a separate section on the need for OPENNESS.

Consider this from one of your sources:

QUOTE
They report does acknowledge that there are perhaps greater uncertainties in temperature reconstructions, reducing Mann et al.'s claim of warmest decade/year in 1,000 years down to 400. Nonetheless, I see nothing in the report that suggests that Mann's research is significantly flawed, nor any calls for release of his data or algorithms, though the report does say in very general terms that such release is a good idea. I am not a climate scientist, but my reading of the section that deals with criticisms of Mann et al.'s work (starting at p. 105) is that while these critiques raise some interesting points, they are minor issues


Now after reading that , Here is what the report ACTUALLY says:

Our view is that all research benefits from full and open access to published datasets and that a clear explanation of analytical methods is mandatory. Peers should have access to the information needed to reproduce published results, so that increased confidence in the outcome of the study can be generated inside and outside the scientific community. Other committees and organizations have produced an extensive body of literature on the importance of open access to scientific data and on the related guidelines for data archiving and data access (e.g., NRC 1995). Paleoclimate research would benefit if individual researchers, professional societies, journal editors, and funding agencies continued to improve their efforts to ensure that these existing open access practices are followed.

As to his assertion that they are MINOR ISSUES, again READ THE ACTUAL REPORT. If they WERE minor issues they would have just left them out or STRESSED that they were minor. They did neither.

Arthur
rshoemake
Well articulated and explained, Arthur.
curious1
Ok Arthur, I read the ENTIRE report.

Besides from the conclusion of the report itself, here's where I think they got this idea from: Page 107, at the bottom of the page (no way to cut and paste from the report, so I'm typing this):
QUOTE
Osborn and Briffa (2006) used an alternative approach based on 14 proxy records, most of which extend back to AD 800, taken from sites widely dispersed throughout the Northern Hemisphere. Instead of reconstructing temperatures, they chose proxy records that correlated well with local thermometers over the last 150 years (regardless of whether they showed warming), smoothing and standardizing each record to have zero mean and unit standard deviation...

The authors showed that the excursions on the warm side were largest in the 20th century and the deviation index produced graphis similar to those from other research (Fig 11-2).... The degree of spatial coherence shown by Osborn and Briffa (2006), together with other reconstructions, provide supporting evidence for the statement that warming during the late 20th Century is more spatially coherent than during previous warm episodes back to at least AD 900 (see also Bradley et al. 2003).


Conclusions (page 112)
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Osborn and Briffa (2006) used an alternative approach based on 14 proxy records, most of which extend back to AD 800, taken from sites widely dispersed throughout the Northern Hemisphere. Instead of reconstructing temperatures, they chose proxy records that correlated well with local thermometers over the last 150 years (regardless of whether they showed warming), smoothing and standardizing each record to have zero mean and unit standard deviation...

The authors showed that the excursions on the warm side were largest in the 20th century and the deviation index produced graphis similar to those from other research (Fig 11-2).... The degree of spatial coherence shown by Osborn and Briffa (2006), together with other reconstructions, provide supporting evidence for the statement that warming during the late 20th Century is more spatially coherent than during previous warm episodes back to at least AD 900 (see also Bradley et al. 2003).


Conclusions (page 112)
It can be said with a high degree of confidence that global mean surface temperature was higher during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period during the preceeding 4 centuries. This statement is justified by the consistency of the evidence from a wide variety of geographically diverse proxies.

Less confidence can be placed in large-scale surface temperature reconstructions for the period from AD 900 to 1600. Presently available proxiy evidence indicates that temperatures at many, but not all, individual locations were higher during the past 25 years than during any period of comparable length since AD 900."


That's similar to what Mann said isn't it? Except Mann's original diagram was far more exaggerated for the 20th Century.

However, I definitely see your point about the 'hockey stick' being formerly bigger than the new graphs are.

So the conclusion is, Mann exaggerated, but the dangers inherent are still real about global warming, thru independently done studies recently. Especially the ACCELERATING pace of warming (which remains to be seen).

Or are you saying there is no global warming going on at all and this is just the earth doing it's thing completely?

If the alarmists are right, and the splits in the ice in Greenland may result in the ice sheeting off into the ocean, our coastal cities are going to flood. Not if, but when.

If Greenland was warm enough to grow grapes, and that's the trend happening right now, and if in fact all that melted ice really does raise the levels of the seas 23'... most of Florida and all coastal cities will be underwater at that point. That presupposes that ALL the ice on the surface of Greenland melts of course... but it would have to to grow grapes.

So while I do not know or really care about hockey sticks, broken or whole, I do care that if global warming is a reality based on our activities, seeing entire cities submerged, along with parts of entire nations (Florida), forces me to rethink my real estate investment strategies tongue.gif .

Is that what we're in for? And everything I've read points in that direction.
adoucette
Lets take Greenland to start with.

ITS HUGE.

User posted image

Think size of MEXICO.

The thinning is around some of the edges.

Its THICKENING away from the edges.

We don't know the NET gain/loss of ice in Greenland, but the amounts we are talking about in comparison to the MASS of ice on Greenland is TINY compared to the 2.5 million cubic km of ice on the place.

http://www.climatechange.umaine.edu/Resear...ib/html/08.html

QUOTE
Ice sheet mass balance is spatially variable. Relatively rapid thinning (on the order of 0.1m/yr) is taking place close to the ice sheet margins and in areas of enhanced ice flow. The interior portions of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets appear to be close to steady state conditions and are not changing with time.


Why won't it all melt?

Well first of all, most of it is pretty high up, the mean height of the Greenland icecap is 2135 meters with 65% above 2000 meters.

Greenland is by far the most extreme highland in the world, its lowest recorded temperature was -70° C, in 1953 at station Northice.
Its mean annual temperature ranges from -20°C and -30°C making the Greenland icecap the coldest place (on average) in the northern hemisphere.

Which is why the melting is ONLY at the margins.

When I talked about the farming that was ALSO on the margins, and while Greenland has ice free margins today, you couldn't farm them.

As to Greenland:

"Erik the Red" Thorwaldsson's explored the southern coast of Greenland between 982 and 985 AD. In 986, he returned with a group of Viking families and settled at Brattahlid. The climate at this time was warmer than it is today, and hundreds of farms were established. The name "Greenland" was given to the country because it was a climatic fact at that time. No one would ever name it Greenland today.

In 999, Leif Eriksson (the son of Erik the Red), brought the first Christian missionary to Greenland and the first church was built beside Erik's farmhouse.

The church became extremely powerful in Greenland such that in 1124 a bishop was appointed, and a residence was built for him near Brattahlid.

At about the same time that this is going on, the favorable climate allowed the present Greenlanders, the Inuit, to migrate from the East and they also settled in Greenland but even further to the north (though it is not known if they did any farming).

This warm climatic period was fairly short in geologic terms (~500 years) and around 1150 the climate once again began to cool. By about 1200 AD, the ever-increasing cold was making life difficult for the colonists in Greenland. Records show that around this time they began having years when no ships were able to reach Greenland through ice-choked seas.

There were brief returns to short warm periods but the overall trend got steadily colder and by 1350, the Norse settlements in southwestern Greenland had been abandoned.

A few clung on in other southern coastal areas but clearly it continued to become more tenuous of an existence. The last written record of the Vikings in Greenland was a wedding performed in the Hvalsey Church in 1408. It is thought that some settlers may have stuck it out another 50 or so years but ultimately they died or were forced to leave by the deteriorating climate.

The climate stayed in this cold phase until the nineteenth century.

Then it began to warm.

So NOT TO WORRY about your purchase of Florida Real Estate, anyone claiming that one needs to worry about more than the margins of the Greenland Ice sheet melting has no idea of the mass of ice they are talking about, or the length of time it would take. This warming trend has yet to produce conditions similar to what Eric the Red found in 982, and by then the warm period was already several hundred years old. Presumably this warming trend could continue for another several hundred years and maybe then farming will return to Greenland and large Vineyards to England.

Lets hope.

Man has ALWAYS done well in the warm phases, a COLD phase would be MUCH MUCH worse.

Keep in mind that over the last decade the NET PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY of the planet went up 6%. This is because the plants are not on such a lean CO2 diet. Remember, ALL YOUR FOOD comes from plants and a plants ONLY FOOD is CO2.

Arthur
Dannible
QUOTE (rubberman+Jun 28 2006, 02:34 PM)
Why would anyone who honestly beleives global warming to be a myth even be at this website? Shouldn't they be busy burning witches and branding slaves?

SIR! You are being very close minded! Burning witches and branding slave is one of my favorite past times. Just because people have different beliefs then you doesn’t mean you can make fun of them or tear them down in any way.

You should be ashamed!!!

Oh and what is a close minded person like this doing on these forums? pfft
curious1
I hope you're right Arthur that it would take a long time. Not that earth could make such a sudden 180 in behavior overnight no matter how many people worried.

I forgot where I saw this, but something said that if the sea only rose 3', some cities would be submerged.

And... that it COULD happen in 50 years if the worst case scenerio came to be (I believe this was National Geograpic, but I don't have the time to look right now).

adoucette
Curious, you seem to be worried about Florida so a good place to start with a look at temps would be there.

But first, a little history:

Taking a slightly LONGER view, here is what the temps have been like since the end of the last major glacial advance:

http://i2.tinypic.com/sb3ee0.gif
User posted image

So what is obvious is why statements about now being the WARMEST in a thousand years are a little SILLY. The last 1,000 years was pretty much a COOL period.

Zooming in now to the last 2,400 years:

http://i2.tinypic.com/sb3drl.gif
User posted image

What we can see is an overall long trend DOWN, with brief warm spells, and that the downward trend reversed itself around the middle to late 19th century. Note the reversal predates any significant introduction of CO2 into the atmosphere.

Let's jump ahead to the RECENT past and start with what the IPCC claims is the GLOBAL TEMP TREND for the last 120 years.

This shows about a 0.6 C rise over this time with year to year extremes of about the same magnitude as the century difference, which explains why animals and plants aren't suffering, they have to handle much greater change from one year to the next during their lifetime than the trend will EVER cause.

http://i2.tinypic.com/smrn86.gif
User posted image

Now lets compare that to the US version for the same general period

http://i2.tinypic.com/sb3h34.gif
User posted image

We see a similar trend line, but with much greater variation from year to year, particularly in the early part of the century. The US had year to year excursions approx twice as large as the century difference.

Notice the similarities between the two though. The globe appears to start the 20th century pretty cold (we WERE exiting the LIA though, so this is relative, for people who had been alive in the middle of the 19th century, the start of the 20th was downright BALMY) the temp then zooms up (with zip help from man) with the period of the late 20s, 30s being quite warm (and dry). By the mid to late 40s though, the cooling had set in, (though NOW CO2 was really starting to get pumped out) and this cooling trend continued until the mid to late 70s. So we have a conundrum, as far as a CO2 driven warming is concernedn, because while CO2 has been rising at an increasing pace over these three decades the global temps are cooling. This long cooling trend caused a number of climate scientists to start talking about the coming ICE AGE, but that fizzeled when the warming trend resumed in the 80s. that trend lasted about 30 years, peaking at 1998, its been on a downward trend since.

OOPS

This is obvious if you look at a the temp trend for the last 70+ years in the US

http://i2.tinypic.com/t5svpv.jpg
User posted image

Now one of the issues is if the trend in the US over the last 70+ years is LESS than 1/2 degree Fahrenheit, how good are we at discerning such a SUBTLE change?


Well lets compare a set of selected stations in the US:

In this case we will take Peoria and compare it to the 4 rural stations around it.

http://i2.tinypic.com/sb3ria.gif
User posted image

OOPS,

Seems the stations don't agree. Global warming is ONLY hitting Peoria but its missing the Rural stations. They in fact are on a COOLING trend.

Wonder Why?

Lets take a look at Florida and see if we can find out?

To be continued:

Arthur
adoucette
Continuation:

Well Lets look at some stations in Florida.

Arcadia
http://i4.tinypic.com/1675o36.jpg
User posted image

Arcadia has had about a 1 d F cooling trend since the start of the century, but if you break it down Arcadia basically had a warming trend till the mid 40s, followed by a steep cooling trend which ended in the late 60s with a year almost 4 deg F COOLER than its peak three decades earlier, since than it has fluctuated but been more moderate than either of these extremes.

Bartow
http://i5.tinypic.com/1675rac.jpg
User posted image

Bartow is a fairly typical pattern, again similar to Arcadia in that it has an overall cooling trend, with a warm up centered around the 40s, a steep cooling till the late 60s, but a more pronounced warm up later in the century. Still its peak temp in 98 is no higher than its peak 80 years earlier. Hardly the poster boy for GW.

De Funiak Spgs
http://i4.tinypic.com/1675taf.jpg
User posted image

A bit more extreme, a more signifiacant overall cooling, its warm up was delayed quite a bit, and it had almost a 6 deg swing between cool and hot years. It ends the century trending up, but still not as high as earlier in the century.

Ft Pierce
http://i3.tinypic.com/1675w10.jpg
User posted image

Same overall pattern, except no pronounced warming at the end of the century, over a 7 degree span between very cold and hot years within a relatively short time.

Inverness
http://i3.tinypic.com/1675zb6.jpg
User posted image

Finally we see one with a SLIGHT warming trend, but that's just an artifact of a very cold start, and that for some reason Inverness didn't get very cold like the other stations did in the late 60s, or as warm in the 40s. None the less, no evidence of Global Warming either.

to be continued:
adoucette
Continuation:

Madison
http://i4.tinypic.com/16760z4.jpg
User posted image

Ocala
http://i5.tinypic.com/1676ltt.jpg
User posted image

Pensacola
http://i4.tinypic.com/1676on8.jpg
User posted image

Tallahassee

http://i1.tinypic.com/scxdvs.jpg
User posted image



What?

No descernable Global Warming?
Some good examples of Global Cooling?

Maybe if we included AN URBAN AREA we could find this elusive Global Warming.

Ft Meyers
http://i5.tinypic.com/1675u1f.jpg
User posted image

laugh.gif

Which if you have looked at as many of these as I have you quickly recognise as the URBAN HEAT ISLAND EFFECT.

Get rid of it, you get rid of ALL traces of Global Warming in the Continental US.

As to your concern about sea level rising, well that's a whole nother subject, which again I've previously gone into GREAT detail about, but for you, I'll dig up the links.

But until then, here's the short version:

A 3 foot rise over 50 years is essentially a 10 fold increase over the rate which has been relatively constant for the LAST 200 years. There is NO INDICATION the rate is accelerating.

Now anyplace which COULD get flooded by an extra 3 ft of AVERAGE sea level is already having problems with SPRING TIDES and STORM SURGES, so they already have to take PROTECTIVE MEASURES. You know, like much of New Orleans which was many feet BELOW Sea level. But hey, if you plan for the WORST CASE as you say, and that turns out to be 10 times the current rate and that gets SUSTAINED for the next 50 years, that means the city has to increase the size of their protective barrier by 1/2 a foot EACH DECADE.

Hardly an insurmountable problem, even for relatively poor nations.

Arthur
beckerist
Arthur: Thank you.
~JS
adoucette
Your welcome.

Let me just add that I've been studying Climate for a long time and it is by far the most complex field I've ever gotten myself immersed in.

In no way do my posts do justice to the complexity inherent in this field.

My advice to people who are interested in this field:

A ) Forget the Mass Media, it doesn't have a CLUE, at this point for all intents and purposes, the Mass Media assumes that Global Warming is a Given.

B ) The popular Scientific Media is a BIT better, but not by much. Science, Discovery, NOVA, Natl Geo, Sci Ameican etc are only as good as their editors allow them to be, and that varies GREATLY.

C ) You really have to read the ACTUAL STUDIES, there is NO OTHER WAY.

D ) Be prepared to be fustrated, it is a VERY ARCANE area of study

E ) Realize from the start that the IPCC is a POLITICAL body FIRST and a SCIENTIFIC body SECOND.

F ) Models are only as good as their assumptions. Pay attention to validity of the ASSUMPTIONS that go in before you consider the validity of their output.

G ) For all graphs and trend lines pay attention to the ENDPOINTS, ask why they were chosen and if they are the most logical endpoints to be chosen. Any graph showing a trend, that by extending the graph a few years changes the trend significantly, is simply a means of "cooking the books". This is a VERY COMMON TECHNIQUE. I call it: Torturing the Data until it Confesses. In general, the LONGEST timelines are the best, but beware of "Grafted" graphs, where a trend is created using different measurement methods and/or proxies, these are FRAUGHT with potential (and unforseen) errors.

H ) Proxies are just that, Proxies, they vary quite a bit in accuracy and in many cases are not easy to verify. A COMMON proxy is tree ring growth data, but tree growth is seasonal and varies based on OTHER issues besides temp. Its an indicator, its not a scientific measuring device.

I) Consider the difficulty in what people claim to be able to measure and to what level of precision something is measurable. You probably could find NO MORE DIFFICULT thing to measure than Annual Global Temperature except maybe the Global Sea Level or the mass balance of the Ice Caps on Greenland. To claim you can do it accuately to a fraction of a degree per year or a millimeter per year is hubris. Actual scientists in the field pay little attention to specific temps only to long term trends. Claims that year X was the warmest (or coldest, or dryest or wettest) are NOT something one can state with any degree of accuracy. Furthermore, being the wettest, dryest or hottest is WEATHER, not CLIMATE.

J ) Employ the 3 day rule at a minimum. Pay no attention to any "smoking gun" or other dire report until 3 WORK days have elapsed and other scientists have had a chance to comment on the story.

K ) If "snippets" from a scientific story are released to the Mass Media PRIOR to the publication in a PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL, what they report in the press is most likely BS or just the MOST EXTREME possibility. Wait until you can read the ACTUAL report before deciding on the issue.


Arthur
adoucette
Why is it that Global Warming hits only the places you've heard about and not the ones you haven't?

Places you know.

Mesa (Phoenix actually)

http://i1.tinypic.com/scx669.jpg
User posted image

Pasadena
http://i1.tinypic.com/scx8n6.jpg
User posted image

New Orleans
http://i1.tinypic.com/v6sm01.jpg
User posted image

Atlantic City
http://i1.tinypic.com/sdpp51.jpg
User posted image

NYC
http://i3.tinypic.com/wcgwfr.jpg
User posted image

???

Arthur
adoucette
Vs places IN THE SAME STATES you probably DON'T know;

AZ - Grand Canyon (ok, you’ve heard of it, but it’s a place not a city)
http://i1.tinypic.com/scx5dh.jpg
User posted image

Calif – Lemon Cove
http://i1.tinypic.com/v67zwj.jpg
User posted image

Louisianna - Plain Dealings
http://i1.tinypic.com/v6u1hw.jpg
User posted image

NJ - Flemington
http://i1.tinypic.com/sdpfur.jpg
User posted image

NY - Binghampton
http://i1.tinypic.com/se1ytl.jpg
User posted image

Be assured I could post MANY more from each state that would look MORE like these posts.

So the question is, given that US temps are SO SKEWED by the Urban Heat Island effect, how can we tell what the REAL surface temp of the US is?

Arthur





adoucette
More?

AR - Gravette

http://i2.tinypic.com/sb4mpx.jpg
User posted image

AR - Mena
http://i1.tinypic.com/sdpnhh.jpg
User posted image

Ar - Newport
http://i1.tinypic.com/sdpnq0.jpg
User posted image

CA - Colfax
http://i1.tinypic.com/v67xco.jpg
User posted image

CA- Electra
http://i1.tinypic.com/v67zm8.jpg
User posted image

CA - Tejon Ranch
http://i1.tinypic.com/scx9c9.jpg
User posted image

No Global Warming evident here

Arthur
adoucette
More?

CA - Susanville
http://i1.tinypic.com/sdpo29.jpg
User posted image

CA - Willows
http://i1.tinypic.com/v680zl.jpg
User posted image

CA - Mt Orland
http://i1.tinypic.com/v680mp.jpg
User posted image

GA - Albany
http://i1.tinypic.com/scxemh.jpg
User posted image

GA - Bainbridge
http://i3.tinypic.com/1676uxj.jpg
User posted image

GA - Quitman
http://i3.tinypic.com/1676ygz.jpg
User posted image

Hmmm?

No global warming here either.

Arthur
adoucette
More?

IA - Indianola
http://i1.tinypic.com/scxfgi.jpg
User posted image

ID - Fenn
http://i1.tinypic.com/sdpovb.jpg
User posted image

IL - Walnut
http://i1.tinypic.com/scxhrm.jpg
User posted image

KS - Coldewater
http://i2.tinypic.com/sb4q6d.jpg
User posted image

KY - Bowling Green
http://i2.tinypic.com/sb4rrd.gif
User posted image

KY - Frankfort
http://i2.tinypic.com/sb4n4n.jpg
User posted image

Gosh, still no warming.

Arthur

CactusCritter
The rist two vitriolic posts for this topicwere startling.

Ad hominem up the wazoo.

I am unable to shake off the fact that virtually all surface glaciers in the world are melting.

I wonder how long before the evidence becomes so shocking that even the idiots will have to accept the reality of global warming.

Whether similar cycles have happened in the past begs the issue of whether fossil fuel consumption is bringing on the impending cycle.

Arthur, I read what you posted with great interest, even though some of the lettering was hard to interpret.

How do you feel about the glacial retreats?
adoucette
Cactus Critter,

I don't want to sound condescending, but I refer to this as Deja' Moo.

Deja' Moo is the feeling that you've heard this BS before.

Consider:

There are ominous signs:

There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production, with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.
The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen changes in their growing season resulting in overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has fallen by a fraction of a degree, a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars' worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.
“Our knowledge of the mechanisms of climatic change is at least as fragmentary as our data,” concedes the National Academy of Sciences report. “Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions.”
Meteorologists begin by noting the slight change in overall temperature that produces large numbers of pressure centers in the upper atmosphere. These break up the smooth flow of westerly winds over temperate areas. The stagnant air produced in this way causes an increase in extremes of local weather such as droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long freezes, delayed monsoons and local temperature increases – all of which have a direct impact on food supplies.

From: The Cooling World - NewsWeek April 28th 1975


Sound Familiar?

Thirty years ago people were likewise convinced we were going to be up to our butts in Glaciers. Thirty years later everyone is convinced they are going to disappear.

What's the difference?

Thirty years ago we had just gone through THIRTY YEARS OF FALLING TEMPS.
Now we have just gone through THIRTY YEARS OF RISING TEMPS.

PROJECTING THE SAME TREND TO CONTINUE INTO THE FUTURE is hardly climate science.

Arthur


adoucette
As to Glaciers themselves.

People who study Glaciers are QUITE aware of the Little Ice Age (even though the IPCC ignores it), thus they know that Glaciers extended SIGNIFICANTLY during this period and are now retreating again. Most glacial retreats began in the mid 1700s, WELL before any possible anthropomorphic affects.

As to the Glaciers, would you EXPECT them to stay in the same advanced position they got to in the depths of the Little Ice Age?

As to them all retreating, again this is not true, local climate plays a significant role, as does relative winter precipitation and as seen in the recent GISS data, the globe is NOT all warming:

http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU05/00572/EGU05-J-00572.pdf

Terminus and surface recent variations from a sample of glaciers on the Italian Alps. The case study of Verra Grande Glacier (Monte Rosa Group)

The study of terminus and surface recent variations of some Italian glaciers has been carried out by using glacier frontal variations data (by Italian Glaciological Committee - CGI), historical maps and geomorphological evidences; particular attention has been paid to these last ones, used to reconstruct the past glaciers extension during the Little Ice Age (LIA) and the 2nd half of the 20th century (called also Cold Episode by Pinna, 1996).

Another good site:

http://www.mountainnature.com/Geology/Glaciers.htm

An Introduction to Mountain Glaciers
Despite their immense impact on the landscape, glaciers are a relative newcomer to the mountain scene. The first buildup of ice occurred approximately 240,000 years ago and ended 128,000 BP. It was followed by a period of warmer climate. There were at least 5 subsequent advances that saw glaciers reclaiming their valleys. In reality, the ice age was not something that began, and then ended. It was a series of advances followed by warmer Interglacial Periods. The final advance was quite recent, beginning approximately 1200 AD, and ending at the turn of the 20th century. Some scientists claim we may only be in another interglacial period today and that the ice age may not be over. Only time will tell.



CODE

Name                    Began      Ended

Cavell Advance       1200 AD   1900 AD
(Little Ice Age)

Warm Period           8,700 BP  4,000-5,000 BP

Crowfoot Advance     11,000 BP  9,000 BP

Late Wisconsinan     20,000 BP  11,000 BP

Early Wisconsinan    75,000 BP  64,000 BP

Illinoian (Great Glaciation)  240,000 BP  128,000 BP




The Little Ice Age only ended at the turn of the 20th century, implying that the glaciers may not be finished yet. On the other hand, we seem to be experiencing a warming climate, which may be the result of the infamous Greenhouse Effect. Which theory is true? Only time will tell. It is likely though that the glaciers will not disappear altogether. As climate warms, they retreat higher up the mountain. They find a point at which they reach an equilibrium with the climate. Steep, cold, north-facing slopes will continue to harbour glaciers for a long, long time yet.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/hubbard/index.shtml

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/forest_fa.../mendenhall.htm

The Mendenhall Glacier reached its point of maximum advance in the mid-1700s, and its terminus rested almost 2.5 miles (4 km) down the valley from its present position. It started retreating in the mid-1700s because its annual rate of melt began to exceed its annual total accumulation.

Note the PEAK of the Little Ice Age occurred about 100 years earlier. Clearly its retreat is NOT from Anthropogenic factors.

What Happens Next?
Perhaps inter-glacial warming trends will prevail. The icefields may continue to melt as glacial meltwater trickles among the debris, and plant and animal communities ultimately reclaim the land. Maybe the next Ice Age waits just around the corner, and the icefields will again advance. Modulating climate and astronomical forces may trigger glaciation, and the ice would once more scour the bedrock, destroying all life within its reach and forcing animal communities to find new homes.

What will happen in the centuries yet to come? The neo-glaciation that created the coastal icefields started only 3,000 years ago, a mere blink in geologic time. Also youthful by geologic standards, the Holocene's climatic warming and glacial events began in Alaska just 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, and the history of the Great Ice Age stretches back almost two million years in time. Although clues from the past illuminate today's observations, the future of glaciation provides a perplexing question for scientific research. Regardless of advance or retreat, melt or accumulation, one factor on the icefields will remain constant. Change will persevere.


Just a good all around site if you like glaciers:

http://crevassezone.org/Photos/glacier_features.htm

Arthur
Johnnyusa
Algore is a livberal, everything he does or says is political. Algore wants the entire world to be a socialist dictatorship, only conforming to his rules and the rules of the whacked out liberals running the world. No kidding...
photojack
johnnyusa, Al Gore is an extremely intelligent, well respected individual in the scientific community. These are from the wikipedia article on him:

"Gore currently is president of the American television channel Current TV, chairman of Generation Investment Management, a director on the board of Apple Computer, and an unofficial adviser to Google's senior management."

"Al Gore's IQ scores, from tests administered at St. Albans in 1961 and 1964 (his freshman and senior years) respectively, have been recorded as 133 and 134."

"Al Gore starred in the film An Inconvenient Truth produced by Paramount Pictures, released on May 24, 2006, and on DVD on 21 November 2006. It concerns global warming, an issue which Gore has followed since the 1970s. It shows some of Gore's more recent speeches, as well as him talking and performing research. Before August it surpassed Bowling for Columbine as the third-highest grossing documentary film in U.S. history.[50] Gore has also published a book of the same title which became a bestseller."

"In late 2006, many media outlets began speculating that Gore may win an Oscar for best documentary for An Inconvenient Truth."

Campaign against Bush

On January 15, 2004, Al Gore gave a major address in New York City on climate change and the Bush administration's approach to the environment. Accompanied by slides and projector, Gore slammed the Bush administration's attitude towards global warming saying, "There are many who still do not believe that global warming is a problem at all. And it's no wonder: because they are the targets of a massive and well-organized campaign of disinformation lavishly funded by polluters who are determined to prevent any action to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that cause global warming out of a fear that their profits might be affected if they had to stop dumping so much pollution into the atmosphere." From wikipedia.

"On May 26, 2004, Gore gave a highly critical speech on the Iraq crisis and the Bush Administration. In the speech, Gore demanded Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith, and Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone all resign for encouraging policies that led to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners and fanned hatred of Americans abroad. During the fiery speech, which lasted more than an hour, Gore called the Bush administration's Iraq war plan "incompetent" and called George W. Bush the most dishonest president since Richard Nixon, who resigned the office of the presidency in 1974 following the Watergate scandal.

Gore also decried the abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq, saying, "What happened at that prison, it is now clear, is not the result of random acts of a few bad apples. It was the natural consequence of the Bush Administration policy."

"On October 18, 2004, Al Gore delivered his final major policy speech of the 2004 political season. In an hour long presentation, Gore concluded that, "I'm convinced that most of the president's frequent departures from fact-based analysis have much more to do with right-wing political and economic ideology than with the Bible."

About Gore's involvement with the development and distribution of the Internet:

On 1999-03-09, during an interview on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, Gore said,
During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. [70]

As a result of the publication of three articles in Wired News[71] (which focused upon the above interview), Gore's statement, "I took the initiative in creating the Internet" became the subject of heavy satire. [72] Media reports surrounding this statement sometimes MISREPRESENTED Gore's words to claim that he "invented the Internet".[73]

Webby award

In 2005, the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences honored Gore at the Webby Awards for Lifetime Achievement for three decades of contributions to the Internet. The Webby Awards, which are widely hailed as the Oscars of the web, "wanted to SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT" about Al Gore and the Internet ONCE AND FOR ALL. Tiffany Shlain, the awards' founder and chairwoman said, "It's just one of those instances someone did amazing work for three decades as Congressman, Senator and Vice President and it got spun around into this political mess." [78]

When he accepted his award, Gore joked during an acceptance speech limited to five words (according to Webby Awards rules): "Please don't recount this vote".[79]

"Algore is a livberal, everything he does or says is political. Algore wants the entire world to be a socialist dictatorship, only conforming to his rules and the rules of the whacked out liberals running the world. No kidding... Quoted from johnnyusa

In light of the above, I think you need to rethink your unfounded views. If you could spell correctly or write a coherent, well argued expose it might be different. The whacked out conservatives just got voted out of office in the House AND Senate. Long live level-headed, sensible progressives (liberals). We rule. No kidding...
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