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dktekno
If all creatures are too complex to have evolved and have to have been designed, then why do we have viruses, salmonella and campylobacter and other bacteria that does no good but harm?

Why do people develop cancer?

Well, you could argue that we should die of something, but what about all the diseases that causes pain and suffering and not death?

Thats very unintelligent...

So it cant have been designed by a higher intelligence.
newguy
dktekno: That would all be the direct result of "the fall" or of sin entering into the world.
Steveo
Could it be from 'evil' design from satan or other demons and evil spirits?
Guest_starforsaken
we can't live forever. we deteriorate. this prevents overpopulation.

perhaps we will evolve into eternal beings, but evolution is eternal and we're only a few thousand years in.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 8 2005, 03:28 PM)
dktekno: That would all be the direct result of "the fall" or of sin entering into the world.

What about the appendix? Is that useless organ from "the fall" too?

Or is it just bad design?

What about the legs in the rear of whales? What about the pelvises in many snakes?

Are those from the fall? Or just bad design?
Bloy
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 8 2005, 03:28 PM)
dktekno: That would all be the direct result of "the fall" or of sin entering into the world.

no, that would be from tripping while attempting to rid ourselves of the "original sin"
Nick
QUOTE (dktekno+Dec 8 2005, 03:19 PM)
If all creatures are too complex to have evolved and have to have been designed, then why do we have viruses, salmonella and campylobacter and other bacteria that does no good but harm?

Why do people develop cancer?

Well, you could argue that we should die of something, but what about all the diseases that causes pain and suffering and not death?

Thats very unintelligent...

So it cant have been designed by a higher intelligence.

People are dying more of cancer than ever before. Why is that? It's a spiritual disease.

Suffering? We have a long future to discover causes and correct them. No unintelligence in that. Intelligent society hasn't been around for very long why would you think we should start out without problems?

And what about Einstein? A scientific hero of the highest kind. He wasn't an atheist. As he said he wanted to know how God created this world. He wanted to know His thoughts. The rest were just details. Why do you think he thought that?

Steveo
QUOTE
People are dying more of cancer than ever before. Why is that? It's a spiritual disease.

Suffering? We have a long future to discover causes and correct them. No unintelligence in that. Intelligent society hasn't been around for very long why would you think we should start out without problems?

And what about Einstein? A scientific hero of the highest kind. He wasn't an atheist. As he said he wanted to know how God created this world. He wanted to know His thoughts. The rest were just details. Why do you think he thought that?


I don't know the details about people dying of cancer, but I highly suspect thats directly related to MORE DIAGNOSISES!!!

And stop trying to quote Einstein about his beliefs. As has been pointed out to you I think 3 times previous (that I have read, or contributed to) he did not believe in a personal god, but a cosmic creator who set the universe in motion and left it alone. Stop misquoting Einstein, this has been pointed out to you several times, so you are just dishonest! And if there is a god, does he look highly on that quality? The ends do not justify the means! If you have to lie, cheat, and kill to do something that has an end result that is good, none of it is justified! I really think you should stop with your Einstein obsession, just because he was a great scientist, doesn't even make his thoughts on god correct. But it doesn't matter, because you are misrepresenting him anyways!
Kaeroll
Cancer is a spiritual disease? Tell that to my dead uncle's kids.

I thought the belief that physical illness is a punishment from God was abandoned years ago.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 8 2005, 09:14 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 8 2005, 03:28 PM)
dktekno: That would all be the direct result of "the fall" or of sin entering into the world.

What about the appendix? Is that useless organ from "the fall" too?

Or is it just bad design?

What about the legs in the rear of whales? What about the pelvises in many snakes?

Are those from the fall? Or just bad design?

???
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Nick+Dec 9 2005, 04:00 PM)
QUOTE (dktekno+Dec 8 2005, 03:19 PM)
If all creatures are too complex to have evolved and have to have been designed, then why do we have viruses, salmonella and campylobacter and other bacteria that does no good but harm?

Why do people develop cancer?

Well, you could argue that we should die of something, but what about all the diseases that causes pain and suffering and not death?

Thats very unintelligent...

So it cant have been designed by a higher intelligence.

People are dying more of cancer than ever before. Why is that? It's a spiritual disease.

Suffering? We have a long future to discover causes and correct them. No unintelligence in that. Intelligent society hasn't been around for very long why would you think we should start out without problems?

And what about Einstein? A scientific hero of the highest kind. He wasn't an atheist. As he said he wanted to know how God created this world. He wanted to know His thoughts. The rest were just details. Why do you think he thought that?

.
.
.
Hi Nick.

Are you suggesting that 'true believers' throughout history to date have NOT died of cancer? Or that mere children with Leukemia etc have died because of some 'affront' to 'god' by their 'non-comprehension' of this 'god'?

If you are truly a 'fan' of Einstein, perhaps you might refrain from making unsubstantiable generalisations like that; which would have annoyed Albert greatly, heh? Have a nice one, mate!

RC.
.
Messenger
OK RC,

I give. Why do people die of cancer? Why aren't there more cures for cancer? What are the scientists and researchers doing with all the money donated and raised for cancer research? Boy that really bugs me - all the money that is used for research, all the money we pay in insurance premiums, and all the medical bills we have to pay because of deductibles, etc. etc. etc. This market is just as bad as televangelists and other hucksters who are not one with God.

My beliefs on cancer is that it is a physical disease -

1. It can be caused by environmental conditions (directly attributable to chemicals created by science).
2. It can be caused by certain actions, such as smoking and abortion (according to JAMA), among many others.
3. It can be caused by stress. Not having a right heart and a right spirit will do terrible damage to the human body.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10
They needed it back then (OT), and we need it now more than ever.

P.S. Whether Einstein or anyone else believes it or not, I think Einstein was a gift from God - to let us in on a few of His secrets. At times, scientists (his own peers) treated him worse than the church treated Galileo. IMO.

fivedoughnut
QUOTE (Messenger+Dec 9 2005, 10:00 PM)
OK RC,

I give. Why do people die of cancer? Why aren't there more cures for cancer? What are the scientists and researchers doing with all the money donated and raised for cancer research? Boy that really bugs me - all the money that is used for research, all the money we pay in insurance premiums, and all the medical bills we have to pay because of deductibles, etc. etc. etc. This market is just as bad as televangelists and other hucksters who are not one with God.

My beliefs on cancer is that it is a physical disease -

1. It can be caused by environmental conditions (directly attributable to chemicals created by science).
2. It can be caused by certain actions, such as smoking and abortion (according to JAMA), among many others.
3. It can be caused by stress. Not having a right heart and a right spirit will do terrible damage to the human body.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10
They needed it back then (OT), and we need it now more than ever.

P.S. Whether Einstein or anyone else believes it or not, I think Einstein was a gift from God - to let us in on a few of His secrets. At times, scientists (his own peers) treated him worse than the church treated Galileo. IMO.

With regards to cancer......give us a chance Mess'r, we've only just got down from the tree's.

With scientific/technological progess now rampantly (currently) undergoing exponential progress...one day soon, we as a species will be able to out-perform any of the so-called "fantasies" associated with that fictional "bible"

This progress has only recently accelerated....why?...because "generally" we are "growing up"....no more the frightened child swathed in ignorance.

The Human race is "learning to stand on it's own two legs" without the "crutch" of religion.

Religion was necessary.....between monkey/ man...an evolutionary construct to allow the "primitive" to socialize...to be successful through integration.

However this evolutionary "trait", at present is about as useful as "gills" to an air breather!

Realise this messanger...and you'll realise your future!
DeathFan
Don't try to defeat the Death, since it is The Motor of Evolution - both physiologically and psychologically. Imagine, what would the random natural genetic modifications be for, if the parents were to also survive forever? And how would the human society look like having alive all our predeccessors, ranging from 20th century dictators and their victims, through french revolutionists, middle-age monks, greek philosophers or ancient egyptians... if they did not die themselves, the predeccessors would probably have to be killed.
newguy
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+)
With scientific/technological progess now rampantly (currently) undergoing exponential progress...one day soon, we as a species will be able to out-perform any of the so-called "fantasies" associated with that fictional "bible"


fivedoughnut: Don't hold your breath. Well, on second thought, maybe you shou... Ah, never mind.

MXWordNerd: Sorry, I just saw your ??? I've been busy elsewhere. Regarding "snake pelvises"...Do you mean why did snakes once have feet?
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+)
With scientific/technological progess now rampantly (currently) undergoing exponential progress...one day soon, we as a species will be able to out-perform any of the so-called "fantasies" associated with that fictional "bible"


fivedoughnut: Don't hold your breath. Well, on second thought, maybe you shou... Ah, never mind.

MXWordNerd: Sorry, I just saw your ??? I've been busy elsewhere. Regarding "snake pelvises"...Do you mean why did snakes once have feet?

No, I know why they once had feet and don't now.

I want to know, in this whole "intelligent design" thing that tries to tell us god made animals as we are, rather than animals (including us) evolving, why did god put a pelvis in snakes? Or an appendix in us? Or a set of vestigial legs in the tail end of a whale?
newguy
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 10 2005, 01:07 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+)
With scientific/technological progess now rampantly (currently) undergoing exponential progress...one day soon, we as a species will be able to out-perform any of the so-called "fantasies" associated with that fictional "bible"


fivedoughnut: Don't hold your breath. Well, on second thought, maybe you shou... Ah, never mind.

MXWordNerd: Sorry, I just saw your ??? I've been busy elsewhere. Regarding "snake pelvises"...Do you mean why did snakes once have feet?

No, I know why they once had feet and don't now.

I want to know, in this whole "intelligent design" thing that tries to tell us god made animals as we are, rather than animals (including us) evolving, why did god put a pelvis in snakes? Or an appendix in us? Or a set of vestigial legs in the tail end of a whale?

MXWordNerd: I'm honestly not familiar with snakes having pelvises. Got a reference for me on that one? Why, in your opinion, did snakes used to have feet and why don't they have them now?
Nick
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 9 2005, 05:18 PM)

I don't know the details about people dying of cancer, but I highly suspect thats directly related to MORE DIAGNOSISES!!!

And stop trying to quote Einstein about his beliefs.  As has been pointed out to you I think 3 times previous (that I have read, or contributed to) he did not believe in a personal god, but a cosmic creator who set the universe in motion and left it alone.  Stop misquoting Einstein, this has been pointed out to you several times, so you are just dishonest!  And if there is a god, does he look highly on that quality?  The ends do not justify the means!  If you have to lie, cheat, and kill to do something that has an end result that is good, none of it is justified!  I really think you should stop with your Einstein obsession, just because he was a great scientist, doesn't even make his thoughts on god correct.  But it doesn't matter, because you are misrepresenting him anyways!

What does diagnosis have to do with more people per capita dying idiot?

And your hero Einstein wasn't an atheist.

"I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are just details." Albert Einstein
gmilam
QUOTE
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950

QUOTE
“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to Beatrice Frohlich, December 17, 1952

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to Beatrice Frohlich, December 17, 1952

“It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.”

Albert Einstein, 1947

QUOTE
“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954


RealityCheck
QUOTE (Messenger+Dec 9 2005, 10:00 PM)
OK RC,

I give.  Why do people die of cancer?  Why aren't there more cures for cancer?  What are the scientists and researchers doing with all the money donated and raised for cancer research?  Boy that really bugs me - all the money that is used for research, all the money we pay in insurance premiums, and all the medical bills we have to pay because of deductibles, etc. etc. etc.  This market is just as bad as televangelists and other hucksters who are not one with God.

My beliefs on cancer is that it is a physical disease -

1.  It can be caused by environmental conditions (directly attributable to chemicals created by science).
2.  It can be caused by certain actions, such as smoking and abortion (according to JAMA), among many others.
3.  It can be caused by stress.  Not having a right heart and a right spirit will do terrible damage to the human body.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10
They needed it back then (OT), and we need it now more than ever.

P.S.  Whether Einstein or anyone else believes it or not, I think Einstein was a gift from God - to let us in on a few of His secrets.   At times, scientists (his own peers) treated him worse than the church treated Galileo.  IMO.

.
.
Seriously, Messenger,

There are basically three aspects to this that should be 'understood' before going any further as to 'specific' causes. These aspects can be undestood by considering:-

(1) Looking into the record of lifespan and causes of death BEFORE INDUSTRIALISATION, MODERN CHEMICAL SYNTHESIS and INTRODUCTION OF TOBACCO (from the 'New World'...the AMERICAS). If you do, you will find that life expectancy was GENERALLY SHORT due to ALL MANNER of 'plague', 'fervers', parasites and nutritional-deficiencies-related 'diseases' like scurvy, rickets etc.(and many due to 'slow' NATURAL poisons they were not aware of the dangers of, in foods, 'processes' storage/preservation methods etc) And let's not forget that before the age of steam power etc, most of the HARD, GRUELLING labour was performed by man and beast. In those days, MOST people did not live long enough to DIE of cancer, BECAUSE THEY DIED MUCH TOO EARLY ON for most of the 'gestation' of cancerous growths to have been 'complete'. In other words, just as many people, had they not died of other causes SO 'YOUNG', would have eventually died of some disease/stress/natural-poison/toxin 'triggered' 'cancers' (in those days I think 'canker' was the term for such 'undifferentiated growths' (whether outwardly visible or not). Basically, few cancer diagnoses in the past because few lived long enough to DIE of one 'canker' or another.

(2) As to 'modern world/lifestyles' being responsible for cancer today; well, as you would know from your recent postings, certain religions espouse stress-relieving 'practices' (eg, meditation, yoga etc) and 'clean living' dietary rules (vegetarianism, veganism, kosher, halal etc). But the record will show that, even before modern 'pollutants/poisons', people young and old STILL contracted cancers...many due to heredity and many due to random mutations 'uncorrected' by a person's immune/self-defense systems . So clean living and stress-free life is no guarantee of cancer-free death (unless one gets hit by a bus first, of course!).

(3) And then there's the aspect which would most interest someone in your position. "Religious conviction' does not always equate to cancer-free life. All one has to do is go through the records and see how many 'pious' and 'religious' and 'spiritual' (and, yes, even 'superstitious') people have died of cancer THEN AND NOW.

That's all the time I have for this one, Mess. Good luck. Sincerely,

RC.
.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 10 2005, 01:07 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+)
With scientific/technological progess now rampantly (currently) undergoing exponential progress...one day soon, we as a species will be able to out-perform any of the so-called "fantasies" associated with that fictional "bible"


fivedoughnut: Don't hold your breath. Well, on second thought, maybe you shou... Ah, never mind.

MXWordNerd: Sorry, I just saw your ??? I've been busy elsewhere. Regarding "snake pelvises"...Do you mean why did snakes once have feet?

No, I know why they once had feet and don't now.

I want to know, in this whole "intelligent design" thing that tries to tell us god made animals as we are, rather than animals (including us) evolving, why did god put a pelvis in snakes? Or an appendix in us? Or a set of vestigial legs in the tail end of a whale?

MXWordNerd: I'm honestly not familiar with snakes having pelvises. Got a reference for me on that one? Why, in your opinion, did snakes used to have feet and why don't they have them now?

Most easily seen in large snakes such as pythons, boas and anacondas, the vestigial pelvis in snakes is certainly there.

user posted image

Hmmm... Why would this "intelligent designer" give pelvises to snakes?

The snake is very interesting because it's specifically in the bible at the very beginning. So, did snakes GROW PELVISES since then? If not, then the very first snake that tempted Adam and Eve had a pelvis. Why?

Or, did they simply evolve from lizards that had legs?
fivedoughnut
.....and why give men nipples?

Was this imaginary character some sort of retard? blink.gif
simulus
QUOTE
.....and why give men nipples?

If the universe were run by a program that was poorly written, you could have features that just don't make sense. Legacy code laugh.gif
fivedoughnut
QUOTE (simulus+Dec 10 2005, 09:38 AM)
If the universe were run by a program that was poorly written, you could have features that just don't make sense. Legacy code  laugh.gif

.....needs serious debugging...perhaps future scientists researching the femto-scale will come across "version 1.01" printed on all sub-atomic particles. laugh.gif
3ohm

NOBODY GETS OUT ALIVE!!!!!! EVER!!!! Isn't this a proven FACT??? The ONLY difference is WHEN and HOW! If we choose to assume there is a creator, then we also assume that creativity is his main attribute! Why would a variety of Death be beyond the creator's creative capabilities?

Everyone dies, but NO-ONE dies in EXACTLY the same way! The circumstances might be the same but the specifics differ. In some cultures the Mosquito is seen as the 'secretary of death' because of malaria, but this doesn't mean it's USELESS! What about the way that insects form an invaluable part of each other's life cycles and can cause chaos if one type is altered or removed? Doesn't the Chaos(butterfly Effect) theory warn us that ANY detail, no matter how small or insignificant can never be underestimated, ignored or left out? That the consequences are far more far reaching than can ever be be imagined? Remember the story of what would happen if we could go back to pre-historic times and just kill ONE little fly, how the different the world would be? Everything must have a reason or it just would'nt be around! It would have faded away by now!
Messenger
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Dec 10 2005, 12:27 AM)
Seriously, Messenger,

There are basically three aspects to this that should be 'understood' before going any further as to 'specific' causes. These aspects can be undestood by considering:-

(1) Looking into the record of lifespan and causes of death BEFORE INDUSTRIALISATION, MODERN CHEMICAL SYNTHESIS and INTRODUCTION OF TOBACCO (from the 'New World'...the AMERICAS). If you do, you will find that life expectancy was GENERALLY SHORT due to ALL MANNER of 'plague', 'fervers', parasites and nutritional-deficiencies-related 'diseases' like scurvy, rickets etc.(and many due to 'slow' NATURAL poisons they were not aware of the dangers of, in foods, 'processes' storage/preservation methods etc) And let's not forget that before the age of steam power etc, most of the HARD, GRUELLING labour was performed by man and beast. In those days, MOST people did not live long enough to DIE of cancer, BECAUSE THEY DIED MUCH TOO EARLY ON for most of the 'gestation' of cancerous growths to have been 'complete'. In other words, just as many people, had they not died of other causes SO 'YOUNG', would have eventually died of some disease/stress/natural-poison/toxin 'triggered' 'cancers' (in those days I think 'canker' was the term for such 'undifferentiated growths' (whether outwardly visible or not). Basically, few cancer diagnoses in the past because few lived long enough to DIE of one 'canker' or another.

(2) As to 'modern world/lifestyles' being responsible for cancer today; well, as you would know from your recent postings, certain religions espouse stress-relieving 'practices' (eg, meditation, yoga etc) and 'clean living' dietary rules (vegetarianism, veganism, kosher, halal etc). But the record will show that, even before modern 'pollutants/poisons', people young and old STILL contracted cancers...many due to heredity and many due to  random mutations 'uncorrected' by a person's immune/self-defense systems . So clean living and stress-free life is no guarantee of cancer-free death (unless one gets hit by a bus first, of course!).

(3) And then there's the aspect which would most interest someone in your position. "Religious conviction' does not always equate to cancer-free life. All one has to do is go through the records and see how many 'pious' and 'religious' and 'spiritual' (and, yes, even 'superstitious') people have died of cancer THEN AND NOW.

That's all the time I have for this one, Mess. Good luck. Sincerely,

RC.
.

RC was serious and so will I be.....

On point number 1 and 2:
This, I have read, is somewhat attributable to the failure of other societies to follow hygienic Biblical (Torah) guidelines. You will not be able to find a society of the Israelites that dies of an earlier average age than a 70. In a Psalm, attributed to Moses, we read that the length of our days is 70 years... This was written thousands of years ago. I think that some statistics may show a lower average due to things like war, famine, and natural disaster. But they speak nothing to the human body's capability for a life span of 70 years.

Psalm 90:10
The length of our days is seventy years—
or eighty, if we have the strength;
yet their span [a] is but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away.


St. Augustine, who lived in the fifth century, died at 75.
Despite a life of marauding and pillage, Genghis Khan, who lived in the 12th century, survived to age 63.
A century later, the more peaceful Marco Polo lived to age 70,
Three centuries later, Michelangelo died at age 88.

Various examples throughout history - show your statement to be somewhat false.
By the way, hard, grueling labor makes people strong - as opposed to finger exercises on the computer. As far as cancerous growth - the truth is that the medical community is learning that we need to eat a healthier diet of natural foods to eliminate or reduce the possibility of cancer.

On point number 3:
If we are ordained by God to live an average of 70 years, then it wouldn't matter whether you were an atheist or a believer. Now some people think we can pray for our illnesses and receive a longer life, others think we are pre-destined to die at a certain time. I haven't bothered to study that too much, because it doesn't matter to me how long I live; although I do have my opinions on this. I know where I'm going and I'm happy to be here as long as I'm here. (Although I would much rather be there.)

I do not think illness/disease is automatic. I think it is purely a physical occurrence that develops because of circumstances and/or cause and effect. Do not equate this with evolution. At no time does a human ever evolve into anything else because he contracts a strange virus, or that a survival mechanism kicks in - because it doesn't - they just die - and the next generation is none the wiser (this is another hole in evolution). (I'm going to assume that you wouldn't equate it with evolution, but also wanted to cover it for those half cocked mice out there).

Sincerely,

MXWordNerd
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 10 2005, 07:25 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 10 2005, 01:07 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+)
With scientific/technological progess now rampantly (currently) undergoing exponential progress...one day soon, we as a species will be able to out-perform any of the so-called "fantasies" associated with that fictional "bible"


fivedoughnut: Don't hold your breath. Well, on second thought, maybe you shou... Ah, never mind.

MXWordNerd: Sorry, I just saw your ??? I've been busy elsewhere. Regarding "snake pelvises"...Do you mean why did snakes once have feet?

No, I know why they once had feet and don't now.

I want to know, in this whole "intelligent design" thing that tries to tell us god made animals as we are, rather than animals (including us) evolving, why did god put a pelvis in snakes? Or an appendix in us? Or a set of vestigial legs in the tail end of a whale?

MXWordNerd: I'm honestly not familiar with snakes having pelvises. Got a reference for me on that one? Why, in your opinion, did snakes used to have feet and why don't they have them now?

Most easily seen in large snakes such as pythons, boas and anacondas, the vestigial pelvis in snakes is certainly there.

user posted image

Hmmm... Why would this "intelligent designer" give pelvises to snakes?

The snake is very interesting because it's specifically in the bible at the very beginning. So, did snakes GROW PELVISES since then? If not, then the very first snake that tempted Adam and Eve had a pelvis. Why?

Or, did they simply evolve from lizards that had legs?

Hello?
RealityCheck
Hi MX.

I think newguy is pretty pressed for time at the moment; and if he's taken my advice, he's also trying to make up for some sleep deficit. So I wouldn't bet on him getting to everything as soon as he would have liked.

Just thought you should know.

RC
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Dec 13 2005, 07:58 AM)
Hi MX.

I think newguy is pretty pressed for time at the moment; and if he's taken my advice, he's also trying to make up for some sleep deficit. So I wouldn't bet on him getting to everything as soon as he would have liked.

Just thought you should know.

RC

Okay. I was really interested in an answer. I've been gone in Canada for a few days and came back looking for the answer to that and it hadn't happened yet.
newguy
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 13 2005, 06:56 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 10 2005, 07:25 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 10 2005, 01:07 AM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 10 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (fivedoughnut+)
With scientific/technological progess now rampantly (currently) undergoing exponential progress...one day soon, we as a species will be able to out-perform any of the so-called "fantasies" associated with that fictional "bible"


fivedoughnut: Don't hold your breath. Well, on second thought, maybe you shou... Ah, never mind.

MXWordNerd: Sorry, I just saw your ??? I've been busy elsewhere. Regarding "snake pelvises"...Do you mean why did snakes once have feet?

No, I know why they once had feet and don't now.

I want to know, in this whole "intelligent design" thing that tries to tell us god made animals as we are, rather than animals (including us) evolving, why did god put a pelvis in snakes? Or an appendix in us? Or a set of vestigial legs in the tail end of a whale?

MXWordNerd: I'm honestly not familiar with snakes having pelvises. Got a reference for me on that one? Why, in your opinion, did snakes used to have feet and why don't they have them now?

Most easily seen in large snakes such as pythons, boas and anacondas, the vestigial pelvis in snakes is certainly there.

user posted image

Hmmm... Why would this "intelligent designer" give pelvises to snakes?

The snake is very interesting because it's specifically in the bible at the very beginning. So, did snakes GROW PELVISES since then? If not, then the very first snake that tempted Adam and Eve had a pelvis. Why?

Or, did they simply evolve from lizards that had legs?

Hello?

MXWordNerd: The two following posts are from the "fossil record explained" thread.

QUOTE (Steveo @ Dec 8 2005, 03:09 PM)
Newguy, have you read the stuff dad1 has posted on the origins of the universe, or of earth, or of whatever he calls it? I know its not science, and I don't even think it is really genisis anymore. What do you think about his nonesense?


Steveo: I have many problems with what he is saying. Leaving all this "PO/Non-PO" stuff aside, I personally believe that things are NOT now the way that they always were. I do believe, for example, that there have been changes within the animal kingdom. Some of these changes(I haven't studied it as thoroughly as you all apparently have, so I'm temporarily refraining from saying "all of these changes"), can simply be related to the "fall of man" and the consequential "curse" that came upon the animal kingdom.

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life."(Genesis 3:14)

The Bible indicates that snakes used to have feet. The fossil record indicates the same. In fact, I recently posted an article about the most recent fossil of this kind. Because of the age of this fossil, the "evolutionists" were forced to conclude that snakes had feet, lost feet, regained feet and lost them again, because it didn't fit into their preconceived "time-frame mold". Quite frankly, regardless of the amount of heat I get from others on this forum, that is simply "dirty pool", or, if you prefer, "dirty science", in my mind. Talk about "squeeeeeeezing" the pieces until they fit into your preconceived "puzzle".

"You put your right foot in...
You put your right foot out...
You put your right foot in, and you shake it all about...
You do the hokey-pokey and you turn yourself around...
That's what it's all about!"


Ever heard that one at a wedding? According to "evolutionists", snakes have. Additionally, the Bible states that the serpent was "cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field". All "cattle" and "beasts" were "cursed"; the serpents "curse" was simply "above" theirs or more severe. Other scriptures reference this "change" that affected the whole animal kingdom.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

Basically, what this portion of scripture is saying is that when Adam "fell", all that was under his authority "fell" with him. The whole of creation is depicted as an expectant mother, in labor, waiting for her child to be born. The analogy to be drawn(if we look at this scripture in its full context) is that all of creation awaits the coming of Christ(the baby being born, so to speak) to restore it to its original "pre-fall" condition and it is in great travail until this happens. Anyhow, the Bible has much to say about how this present world is different than it was in ages past. I only briefly mentioned some things pertaining to the animal kingdom. The Bible does also describe many other changes that could account for some of the things that are presently being discussed throughout this forum. That's all for now. Hope this helps. Gotta run...
newguy
MXWordNerd: Here's the original article that I posted.

The Riddle of the Snakes With Legs
A fossil snake with legs was found in 95 million-year-old deposits near Jerusalem.

Its sedimentary surroundings suggested a seafaring lifestyle for this ancient reptile, but its advanced anatomy prompted scientists to question the theory about the marine origin of snakes.

The intriguing species, named Haasiophis terrasanctus, was the second limbed snake to come from the site of Ein Yabrud, an ancient marine environment broadly similar to the still, coastal waters of today's Bahamian reef.

The first such species, Pachyrhachis problematicus, "played a pivotal role in a scenario that places the ancestor of snakes in the sea," scientists reported in the journal Science in March 2000.

"In support of Pachyrhachis' position at the base of the serpent family tree, some paleontologists have noted features in its skull that they believe single it out as a transitional link between mosasaurs—gigantic swimming lizards of the Cretaceous (144 to 65 million years ago)—and true snakes. This view contrasts dramatically with the traditional view of small terrestrial or burrowing lizards as snake ancestors," the researchers said.

A group of scientists, led by Olivier Rieppel of the Field Museum in Chicago and Eitan Tchernov of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, brought Haasiophis into the midst of the origins controversy after the fossil had spent years in nameless limbo in a museum drawer.

Their description of the extremely well-preserved fossil, along with an analysis of its evolutionary relationships, led the scientists to conclude that their new species was close kin to Pachyrhachis.

Their analysis also indicated, however, that the two snakes were not primitive ancestors, but advanced snakes similar to modern boas and pythons. This suggests that neither Pachyrhachis nor Haasiophis had anything to do with snake origins.

The finding undermined the theory that Pachyrhachis represented an evolutionary link between marine reptiles and true snakes.

Snakes like boas and pythons have a distinctively mobile skull structure that allows them to nearly unhinge their jaw in a formidable gape and "walk" their skull over their prey, dining on meals larger than the diameter of their own head.

The two species of fossil snakes from Ein Yabrud appeared to have skull architecture similar to these modern serpents. Previous studies of Pachyrhachis had concluded that the snake was incapable of such jaw flexibility, instead adopting a modified gape similar to that of the mosasaurs as an intermediate step between the rigid skull of lizards and the mobile skull of higher snakes.

"We went back and looked very carefully at the skulls of Pachyrhachis, Haasiophis, and lizards like mosasaurs, especially features like the braincase, the dentition, and the joint in the middle of the lower jaw," said Rieppel. "The better preservation of Haasiophis allowed us to use its anatomy as a guide, and gave us the background to see just how much these fossils looked like advanced snakes."

But a riddle remained: Why do these two snake species have hind limbs? If legs were the norm for snake ancestors, it would make sense to see the species' advanced anatomy as only superficially similar to more modern snakes.

On the other hand, the stubby limbs on the fossil snakes might represent an evolutionary reversal, where snakes with advanced skull design regain hind limbs that were lost or perhaps greatly reduced in their ancestors.

Rieppel and his colleagues counted the number of evolutionary steps involved in each possible scenario, and concluded that the redevelopment of limbs was a more likely story.

"We know of at least 62 lizard and snake lineages that have undergone some degree of limb reduction," Rieppel noted. "Since our fossil record of snakes is very poor, we can't exclude the possibility that limbs in snakes were lost not just once in the beginning, but several times throughout their history."

Rieppel said that it is difficult to tell how the legs themselves might have been used, since they are too small in relation to the animal's whole body to have any locomotor function.

Modern pythons have a rudimentary hind limb, usually little more than a "claw" of cartilage tipped with bone that they use during mating and occasional fighting, and it is possible that Haasiophis' leg served a similar purpose.

Source: American Association for the Advancement of Science
Steveo
QUOTE
What does diagnosis have to do with more people per capita dying idiot?

And your hero Einstein wasn't an atheist.

"I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are just details." Albert Einstein


Each line of your post is in error nick. And a 5 letter insult? I am impressed! Your a big man now!
Diagnosis has a lot to do with more people dying per capita. Along with the things that Realitycheck posted. Have you ever heard the saying on the news when talking about a death and autopsy "The cause of death is unknown". Well, go back generations, or centuries and it is much more likely that this is going to be said, or things like "bad blood" are going to be the cause of death. Could any of these deaths possibibly have been from cancer? Even 5% maybe? If you are so niave to thing that diagnositics were the same centuries ago then you can live in your little fantasy world, I won't stop you.

Messenger: as relates to your 'refutation' of RC's post. As it concerns to physical labor, in the short run it makes you stronger. But doing heavy, physical labor all day does two things negative for us. One, it wears down our joints, especially knees, hips, and back. It also increases the risk of some type of serious injury. Then, with these weakened, and sometimes so weakened an painful joints that a person can no longer get exercise and keep healthy, they are more likely to to die from sickness. There you go, cause and EFFECT.

Nick, Einstein is not my hero. He was a great physicist, but in my opinion no where near the greatest. And how many times is it going to have to pointed out that Einstein did not believe in god? Those set of quotes that gmilan posted is at least the second time they have been posted after your claim that Einstein believed in god. Are you that ignorant, or that much of a liar? Or are you just going to run and not respond to this post like you have done everytime.

Also, lets say, for arguments sake, that Einstein did believe in god. He is famous because he was a great PHYSICIST, not a great philosopher, or religious leader. His personal view on god is not some type of authority on what people should believe. If Einstein said "there is no god, and anyone who believes in god is stupid" would that make you stop believing? I doubt it? And why, because he is NO expert on religion.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 13 2005, 07:20 PM)
MXWordNerd: Here's the original article that I posted.

The Riddle of the Snakes With Legs
A fossil snake with legs was found in 95 million-year-old deposits near Jerusalem.

Its sedimentary surroundings suggested a seafaring lifestyle for this ancient reptile, but its advanced anatomy prompted scientists to question the theory about the marine origin of snakes.

The intriguing species, named Haasiophis terrasanctus, was the second limbed snake to come from the site of Ein Yabrud, an ancient marine environment broadly similar to the still, coastal waters of today's Bahamian reef.

The first such species, Pachyrhachis problematicus, "played a pivotal role in a scenario that places the ancestor of snakes in the sea," scientists reported in the journal Science in March 2000.

"In support of Pachyrhachis' position at the base of the serpent family tree, some paleontologists have noted features in its skull that they believe single it out as a transitional link between mosasaurs—gigantic swimming lizards of the Cretaceous (144 to 65 million years ago)—and true snakes. This view contrasts dramatically with the traditional view of small terrestrial or burrowing lizards as snake ancestors," the researchers said.

A group of scientists, led by Olivier Rieppel of the Field Museum in Chicago and Eitan Tchernov of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, brought Haasiophis into the midst of the origins controversy after the fossil had spent years in nameless limbo in a museum drawer.

Their description of the extremely well-preserved fossil, along with an analysis of its evolutionary relationships, led the scientists to conclude that their new species was close kin to Pachyrhachis.

Their analysis also indicated, however, that the two snakes were not primitive ancestors, but advanced snakes similar to modern boas and pythons. This suggests that neither Pachyrhachis nor Haasiophis had anything to do with snake origins.

The finding undermined the theory that Pachyrhachis represented an evolutionary link between marine reptiles and true snakes.

Snakes like boas and pythons have a distinctively mobile skull structure that allows them to nearly unhinge their jaw in a formidable gape and "walk" their skull over their prey, dining on meals larger than the diameter of their own head.

The two species of fossil snakes from Ein Yabrud appeared to have skull architecture similar to these modern serpents. Previous studies of Pachyrhachis had concluded that the snake was incapable of such jaw flexibility, instead adopting a modified gape similar to that of the mosasaurs as an intermediate step between the rigid skull of lizards and the mobile skull of higher snakes.

"We went back and looked very carefully at the skulls of Pachyrhachis, Haasiophis, and lizards like mosasaurs, especially features like the braincase, the dentition, and the joint in the middle of the lower jaw," said Rieppel. "The better preservation of Haasiophis allowed us to use its anatomy as a guide, and gave us the background to see just how much these fossils looked like advanced snakes."

But a riddle remained: Why do these two snake species have hind limbs? If legs were the norm for snake ancestors, it would make sense to see the species' advanced anatomy as only superficially similar to more modern snakes.

On the other hand, the stubby limbs on the fossil snakes might represent an evolutionary reversal, where snakes with advanced skull design regain hind limbs that were lost or perhaps greatly reduced in their ancestors.

Rieppel and his colleagues counted the number of evolutionary steps involved in each possible scenario, and concluded that the redevelopment of limbs was a more likely story.

"We know of at least 62 lizard and snake lineages that have undergone some degree of limb reduction," Rieppel noted. "Since our fossil record of snakes is very poor, we can't exclude the possibility that limbs in snakes were lost not just once in the beginning, but several times throughout their history."

Rieppel said that it is difficult to tell how the legs themselves might have been used, since they are too small in relation to the animal's whole body to have any locomotor function.

Modern pythons have a rudimentary hind limb, usually little more than a "claw" of cartilage tipped with bone that they use during mating and occasional fighting, and it is possible that Haasiophis' leg served a similar purpose.

Source: American Association for the Advancement of Science

What do you assume that proves?
Steveo
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?


I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.
gmilam
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 01:39 PM)
lets say, for arguments sake, that Einstein did believe in god. He is famous because he was a great PHYSICIST, not a great philosopher, or religious leader. His personal view on god is not some type of authority on what people should believe. If Einstein said "there is no god, and anyone who believes in god is stupid" would that make you stop believing? I doubt it? And why, because he is NO expert on religion.

It's true, Einstein's belief or non-belief is irrelevant.

Besides, what does it mean when someone says they believe in god. Their concept of god may be quite different than yours.

Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.
Steveo
QUOTE
Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.


I thought neither of these statements was agnosticism? I thought one was positive athiesm and one was negative atheism. I thought agnosticism meant that you follow the knowledge, to whatever conclusion that leads. Whether it be that there is a good or there is no god. At least thats what I thought.
gmilam
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 07:41 PM)
QUOTE
Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.


I thought neither of these statements was agnosticism? I thought one was positive athiesm and one was negative atheism. I thought agnosticism meant that you follow the knowledge, to whatever conclusion that leads. Whether it be that there is a good or there is no god. At least thats what I thought.

I'll accept your definition of Agnostic. It matches mine.

I can't say I believe in god... as I have seen no evidence that convinces me.

On the other hand, I may not have all the evidence... Therefore, I cannot definitely say, there is no god.

So, I'll follow the knowledge to wherever it leads.

But I suspect the "truth" is written in the fabric of the universe... and not some "revealed" word within an ancient book.
Messenger
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 01:39 PM)
 
Messenger: as relates to your 'refutation' of RC's post.  As it concerns to physical labor, in the short run it makes you stronger.  But doing heavy, physical labor all day does two things negative for us.  One, it wears down our joints, especially knees, hips, and back.  It also increases the risk of some type of serious injury.  Then, with these weakened, and sometimes so weakened an painful joints that a person can no longer get exercise and keep healthy, they are more likely to to die from sickness.  There you go, cause and EFFECT.


So does sittin' on your butt. wink.gif

I know a lot of hard working folks who are 90 years old and still going strong.

I understand what you're trying to say - and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. But I think the aches and pains you're referring to are probably a direct cause of repetitive physical activity, as opposed to natural physical activity. Farming is considered grueling labor - but there are more 90 year olds in that group than in any other.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 14 2005, 01:41 AM)
QUOTE
Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.


I thought neither of these statements was agnosticism? I thought one was positive athiesm and one was negative atheism. I thought agnosticism meant that you follow the knowledge, to whatever conclusion that leads. Whether it be that there is a good or there is no god. At least thats what I thought.

"I don't believe in god" is simply a lack of belief. "I don't believe god exists" is a belief that god doesn't exist.

Quite different.

I'm agnostic. I don't pretend to know if god does or doesn't exist because, despite what newguy says, it's impossible to know either way.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?


I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.

Too bad he wouldn't answer that.
Steveo
QUOTE
I understand what you're trying to say - and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. But I think the aches and pains you're referring to are probably a direct cause of repetitive physical activity, as opposed to natural physical activity. Farming is considered grueling labor - but there are more 90 year olds in that group than in any other.


First of all, do you have the statistics to back that up? If not, how can I trust that statement? Also, is farming the only grueling labor job out there? What about mining? Something in forestry? I know miners don't have a 90 year life span. What about metallurgy? Think that was a healthy job centuries ago? And ancient hunting. I am sure that was really healthy and there were no physical trauma's from that. I am not saying that from any of these labors that people didn't live to be 90, or older, but on average, I am sure they didn't. Also, we are talking about in the past, not in the current, since the claim was that cancer is more prevalent now, than in the past. Do you know of farmers that were relatives of yours from even 50-100 years ago, and did they live to be 90? Or did they die much younger?
sinned34
QUOTE
Farming is considered grueling labor - but there are more 90 year olds in that group than in any other.


My grandfather and most of his family were farmers, at least for a good portion of their lives. Earl is turning 89 tomorrow, and he is the last of all of his eight siblings. He is the only one so far who has survived to get even close to 90, and each of his brothers and sisters that have passed suffered for many years from ailments related to hard work done for the better part of their youth. I would argue the only reason my grandfather is still alive is by will and pickled liver alone! Plus, modern farming, even within the last 100 years has become much easier thanks to technological advances, and is not the "grueling" labour that it once was (though that is a matter of opinion - it's still much more physically demanding than computer programming).
newguy
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?


I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.

Too bad he wouldn't answer that.

MXWordNerd: Can't you read? The quote that you posted originally followed another post of mine that should have answered your question. The Bible indicates that snakes once had legs. So does the fossil record. Because of a recent find that doesn't fit their pre-conceived puzzle, the evolutionists are forced to conclude that snakes had legs, lost them, regained them and then lost them again. That is the "hokey pokey". Got it, yet? No. Didn't think so. Your posts don't bother me or threaten me in any way. Quite frankly, for the most part, they simply seek to waste my time.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 06:12 PM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?


I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.

Too bad he wouldn't answer that.

MXWordNerd: Can't you read? The quote that you posted originally followed another post of mine that should have answered your question. The Bible indicates that snakes once had legs. So does the fossil record. Because of a recent find that doesn't fit their pre-conceived puzzle, the evolutionists are forced to conclude that snakes had legs, lost them, regained them and then lost them again. That is the "hokey pokey". Got it, yet? No. Didn't think so. Your posts don't bother me or threaten me in any way. Quite frankly, for the most part, they simply seek to waste my time.

Where does the bible explicitly say that snakes once had legs?
newguy
MXWordNerd:

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)

The serpent was cursed "above all cattle" and "above every beast" or its curse was the most severe. "All cattle" and "every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records. It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go "upon its belly".
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 10:31 PM)
MXWordNerd:

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)

The serpent was cursed "above all cattle" and "above every beast" or its curse was the most severe. "All cattle" and "every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records. It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go "upon its belly".

So, the snake in the tree in Eden had legs?
newguy
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 11:06 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 10:31 PM)
MXWordNerd:

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)

The serpent was cursed "above all cattle" and "above every beast" or its curse was the most severe.  "All cattle" and "every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records.  It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go "upon its belly".

So, the snake in the tree in Eden had legs?

MXWordNerd: Although most artwork depicts the serpent in a tree, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicate this. Yes, apparently the serpent in Eden had legs prior to being cursed.
MXWordNerd
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 11:09 PM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 11:06 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 10:31 PM)
MXWordNerd:

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)

The serpent was cursed "above all cattle" and "above every beast" or its curse was the most severe.  "All cattle" and "every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records.  It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go "upon its belly".

So, the snake in the tree in Eden had legs?

MXWordNerd: Although most artwork depicts the serpent in a tree, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicate this. Yes, apparently the serpent in Eden had legs prior to being cursed.

So it was a lizard.
sinned34
QUOTE
Yes, apparently the serpent in Eden had legs prior to being cursed.


Hmmmm, so taken allegorically, the Bible DOES support evolution! Although, creatures were dying by the billions for a LONG time before humans appeared on the scene. But once again, if not taken literally, Genesis could be considered as a theological explanation for WHY creatures die. I do find it curious that God had to quickly kick man out of the garden of Eden before he ate from the tree of life and lived forever. If it were true, shouldn't the garden still stand? Did the tree of life wither and die? How could a tree that imparts everlasting life die? Realistically, this was a story about how man chose knowledge over eternal life. It's a somewhat poetic explanation for our mortality, and it certainly makes more sense and has greater value as a fable instead of a history lesson.
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