MXWordNerd: Here's the original article that I posted.
The Riddle of the Snakes With Legs A fossil snake with legs was found in 95 million-year-old deposits near Jerusalem.
Its sedimentary surroundings suggested a seafaring lifestyle for this ancient reptile, but its advanced anatomy prompted scientists to question the theory about the marine origin of snakes.
The intriguing species, named Haasiophis terrasanctus, was the second limbed snake to come from the site of Ein Yabrud, an ancient marine environment broadly similar to the still, coastal waters of today's Bahamian reef.
The first such species, Pachyrhachis problematicus, "played a pivotal role in a scenario that places the ancestor of snakes in the sea," scientists reported in the journal Science in March 2000.
"In support of Pachyrhachis' position at the base of the serpent family tree, some paleontologists have noted features in its skull that they believe single it out as a transitional link between mosasaurs—gigantic swimming lizards of the Cretaceous (144 to 65 million years ago)—and true snakes. This view contrasts dramatically with the traditional view of small terrestrial or burrowing lizards as snake ancestors," the researchers said.
A group of scientists, led by Olivier Rieppel of the Field Museum in Chicago and Eitan Tchernov of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, brought Haasiophis into the midst of the origins controversy after the fossil had spent years in nameless limbo in a museum drawer.
Their description of the extremely well-preserved fossil, along with an analysis of its evolutionary relationships, led the scientists to conclude that their new species was close kin to Pachyrhachis.
Their analysis also indicated, however, that the two snakes were not primitive ancestors, but advanced snakes similar to modern boas and pythons. This suggests that neither Pachyrhachis nor Haasiophis had anything to do with snake origins.
The finding undermined the theory that Pachyrhachis represented an evolutionary link between marine reptiles and true snakes.
Snakes like boas and pythons have a distinctively mobile skull structure that allows them to nearly unhinge their jaw in a formidable gape and "walk" their skull over their prey, dining on meals larger than the diameter of their own head.
The two species of fossil snakes from Ein Yabrud appeared to have skull architecture similar to these modern serpents. Previous studies of Pachyrhachis had concluded that the snake was incapable of such jaw flexibility, instead adopting a modified gape similar to that of the mosasaurs as an intermediate step between the rigid skull of lizards and the mobile skull of higher snakes.
"We went back and looked very carefully at the skulls of Pachyrhachis, Haasiophis, and lizards like mosasaurs, especially features like the braincase, the dentition, and the joint in the middle of the lower jaw," said Rieppel. "The better preservation of Haasiophis allowed us to use its anatomy as a guide, and gave us the background to see just how much these fossils looked like advanced snakes."
But a riddle remained: Why do these two snake species have hind limbs? If legs were the norm for snake ancestors, it would make sense to see the species' advanced anatomy as only superficially similar to more modern snakes.
On the other hand, the stubby limbs on the fossil snakes might represent an evolutionary reversal, where snakes with advanced skull design regain hind limbs that were lost or perhaps greatly reduced in their ancestors.
Rieppel and his colleagues counted the number of evolutionary steps involved in each possible scenario, and concluded that the redevelopment of limbs was a more likely story.
"We know of at least 62 lizard and snake lineages that have undergone some degree of limb reduction," Rieppel noted. "Since our fossil record of snakes is very poor, we can't exclude the possibility that limbs in snakes were lost not just once in the beginning, but several times throughout their history."
Rieppel said that it is difficult to tell how the legs themselves might have been used, since they are too small in relation to the animal's whole body to have any locomotor function.
Modern pythons have a rudimentary hind limb, usually little more than a "claw" of cartilage tipped with bone that they use during mating and occasional fighting, and it is possible that Haasiophis' leg served a similar purpose.
Source: American Association for the Advancement of Science
What do you assume that proves?
Steveo
13th December 2005 - 09:12 PM
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?
I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.
gmilam
14th December 2005 - 12:58 AM
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 01:39 PM)
lets say, for arguments sake, that Einstein did believe in god. He is famous because he was a great PHYSICIST, not a great philosopher, or religious leader. His personal view on god is not some type of authority on what people should believe. If Einstein said "there is no god, and anyone who believes in god is stupid" would that make you stop believing? I doubt it? And why, because he is NO expert on religion.
It's true, Einstein's belief or non-belief is irrelevant.
Besides, what does it mean when someone says they believe in god. Their concept of god may be quite different than yours.
Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.
Steveo
14th December 2005 - 01:41 AM
QUOTE
Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.
I thought neither of these statements was agnosticism? I thought one was positive athiesm and one was negative atheism. I thought agnosticism meant that you follow the knowledge, to whatever conclusion that leads. Whether it be that there is a good or there is no god. At least thats what I thought.
gmilam
14th December 2005 - 02:23 AM
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 07:41 PM)
QUOTE
Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.
I thought neither of these statements was agnosticism? I thought one was positive athiesm and one was negative atheism. I thought agnosticism meant that you follow the knowledge, to whatever conclusion that leads. Whether it be that there is a good or there is no god. At least thats what I thought.
I'll accept your definition of Agnostic. It matches mine.
I can't say I believe in god... as I have seen no evidence that convinces me.
On the other hand, I may not have all the evidence... Therefore, I cannot definitely say, there is no god.
So, I'll follow the knowledge to wherever it leads.
But I suspect the "truth" is written in the fabric of the universe... and not some "revealed" word within an ancient book.
Messenger
14th December 2005 - 06:10 AM
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 01:39 PM)
Messenger: as relates to your 'refutation' of RC's post. As it concerns to physical labor, in the short run it makes you stronger. But doing heavy, physical labor all day does two things negative for us. One, it wears down our joints, especially knees, hips, and back. It also increases the risk of some type of serious injury. Then, with these weakened, and sometimes so weakened an painful joints that a person can no longer get exercise and keep healthy, they are more likely to to die from sickness. There you go, cause and EFFECT.
So does sittin' on your butt.
I know a lot of hard working folks who are 90 years old and still going strong.
I understand what you're trying to say - and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. But I think the aches and pains you're referring to are probably a direct cause of repetitive physical activity, as opposed to natural physical activity. Farming is considered grueling labor - but there are more 90 year olds in that group than in any other.
MXWordNerd
14th December 2005 - 08:10 AM
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 14 2005, 01:41 AM)
QUOTE
Although I consider myself an agnostic, most of my friends consider me an atheist. One, because my idea of god is quite different from theirs. Aand two, because they don't see a difference between, "I do not believe in god" and "I believe god does not exist." They are two very different statements.
I thought neither of these statements was agnosticism? I thought one was positive athiesm and one was negative atheism. I thought agnosticism meant that you follow the knowledge, to whatever conclusion that leads. Whether it be that there is a good or there is no god. At least thats what I thought.
"I don't believe in god" is simply a lack of belief. "I don't believe god exists" is a belief that god doesn't exist.
Quite different.
I'm agnostic. I don't pretend to know if god does or doesn't exist because, despite what newguy says, it's impossible to know either way.
MXWordNerd
14th December 2005 - 08:12 AM
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?
I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.
Too bad he wouldn't answer that.
Steveo
14th December 2005 - 04:08 PM
QUOTE
I understand what you're trying to say - and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. But I think the aches and pains you're referring to are probably a direct cause of repetitive physical activity, as opposed to natural physical activity. Farming is considered grueling labor - but there are more 90 year olds in that group than in any other.
First of all, do you have the statistics to back that up? If not, how can I trust that statement? Also, is farming the only grueling labor job out there? What about mining? Something in forestry? I know miners don't have a 90 year life span. What about metallurgy? Think that was a healthy job centuries ago? And ancient hunting. I am sure that was really healthy and there were no physical trauma's from that. I am not saying that from any of these labors that people didn't live to be 90, or older, but on average, I am sure they didn't. Also, we are talking about in the past, not in the current, since the claim was that cancer is more prevalent now, than in the past. Do you know of farmers that were relatives of yours from even 50-100 years ago, and did they live to be 90? Or did they die much younger?
sinned34
14th December 2005 - 04:27 PM
QUOTE
Farming is considered grueling labor - but there are more 90 year olds in that group than in any other.
My grandfather and most of his family were farmers, at least for a good portion of their lives. Earl is turning 89 tomorrow, and he is the last of all of his eight siblings. He is the only one so far who has survived to get even close to 90, and each of his brothers and sisters that have passed suffered for many years from ailments related to hard work done for the better part of their youth. I would argue the only reason my grandfather is still alive is by will and pickled liver alone! Plus, modern farming, even within the last 100 years has become much easier thanks to technological advances, and is not the "grueling" labour that it once was (though that is a matter of opinion - it's still much more physically demanding than computer programming).
newguy
14th December 2005 - 06:12 PM
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?
I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.
Too bad he wouldn't answer that.
MXWordNerd: Can't you read? The quote that you posted originally followed another post of mine that should have answered your question. The Bible indicates that snakes once had legs. So does the fossil record. Because of a recent find that doesn't fit their pre-conceived puzzle, the evolutionists are forced to conclude that snakes had legs, lost them, regained them and then lost them again. That is the "hokey pokey". Got it, yet? No. Didn't think so. Your posts don't bother me or threaten me in any way. Quite frankly, for the most part, they simply seek to waste my time.
MXWordNerd
14th December 2005 - 09:09 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 06:12 PM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (Steveo+Dec 13 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE
What do you assume that proves?
I assume it proves there are some yet to be explained observations hehe.
But Newguy thinks, or at least thought that it is them dancing around trying to explain it and coming up with a 'bad' answer because evolution is wrong. At any rate, its nothing more than some unexplained observations. Give it some more time, and if its still unexplained, or new evidence is found that has an even harder time being explained, then maybe evolutionary theory will need drastic change. But, the obserations are the facts, and the theory has to explain all of these facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to use. Basically, young earth creationists need to show that any fossil, or strata measurement is wrong, and not older than 6000 years or whatever. Dad1 has attempted to do this, but his "your assuming old age and PO" really doesn't discredit anything, or his "decay didn't happen before the split, but I have no evidence, I just need to find a way to screw up your dating methods, even though it has the opposite effects that I actually want".
I personally found the article quite interesting.....things that don't fit, at least at first, are the most interesting. cause its a challenge trying to figure out how it fits.
To all in here, especially the less scientifically inclined, read the book "Structure of Scientific Revolution" by Thomas Kuhn. Very good book, and will give an insight into science, and how science is normally practiced too.
Too bad he wouldn't answer that.
MXWordNerd: Can't you read? The quote that you posted originally followed another post of mine that should have answered your question. The Bible indicates that snakes once had legs. So does the fossil record. Because of a recent find that doesn't fit their pre-conceived puzzle, the evolutionists are forced to conclude that snakes had legs, lost them, regained them and then lost them again. That is the
"hokey pokey". Got it, yet? No. Didn't think so. Your posts don't bother me or threaten me in any way. Quite frankly, for the most part, they simply seek to waste my time.
Where does the bible explicitly say that snakes once had legs?
newguy
14th December 2005 - 10:31 PM
MXWordNerd:
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)
The serpent was cursed "above all cattle" and "above every beast" or its curse was the most severe. "All cattle" and "every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records. It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go "upon its belly".
MXWordNerd
14th December 2005 - 11:06 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 10:31 PM)
MXWordNerd:
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)The serpent was cursed
"above all cattle" and
"above every beast" or its curse was the most severe.
"All cattle" and
"every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records. It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go
"upon its belly".
So, the snake in the tree in Eden had legs?
newguy
14th December 2005 - 11:09 PM
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 11:06 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 10:31 PM)
MXWordNerd:
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)The serpent was cursed
"above all cattle" and
"above every beast" or its curse was the most severe.
"All cattle" and
"every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records. It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go
"upon its belly".
So, the snake in the tree in Eden had legs?
MXWordNerd: Although most artwork depicts the serpent in a tree, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicate this. Yes, apparently the serpent in Eden had legs prior to being cursed.
MXWordNerd
14th December 2005 - 11:16 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 11:09 PM)
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Dec 14 2005, 11:06 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+Dec 14 2005, 10:31 PM)
MXWordNerd:
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life..."(Genesis 3:14)The serpent was cursed
"above all cattle" and
"above every beast" or its curse was the most severe.
"All cattle" and
"every beast" was cursed which can certainly explain some of the changes that we see in the fossil records. It seems quite obvious that the serpent's curse included losing its legs as it would now go
"upon its belly".
So, the snake in the tree in Eden had legs?
MXWordNerd: Although most artwork depicts the serpent in a tree, there is nothing in the scriptures that indicate this. Yes, apparently the serpent in Eden had legs prior to being cursed.
So it was a lizard.
sinned34
15th December 2005 - 07:33 PM
QUOTE
Yes, apparently the serpent in Eden had legs prior to being cursed.
Hmmmm, so taken allegorically, the Bible DOES support evolution! Although, creatures were dying by the billions for a LONG time before humans appeared on the scene. But once again, if not taken literally, Genesis could be considered as a theological explanation for WHY creatures die. I do find it curious that God had to quickly kick man out of the garden of Eden before he ate from the tree of life and lived forever. If it were true, shouldn't the garden still stand? Did the tree of life wither and die? How could a tree that imparts everlasting life die? Realistically, this was a story about how man chose knowledge over eternal life. It's a somewhat poetic explanation for our mortality, and it certainly makes more sense and has greater value as a fable instead of a history lesson.
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