Read this thread for reference.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...=0&#entry419710
True inter-stellar colonization is actually much easier than has ever been previously realized. By the time a civilization has the smallest self-sufficient Dyson Megastructure possible (Here after labeled a "World Ship",) finding a "habitable planet" is no longer an issue.
A World Ship is an artificial semi-shell structure which is the smallest self sufficient component of a Dyson Sphere, Ring, or Swarm. To colonize another star (closest one nearby,) the parent Dyson Sphere civilization simply sends one World Ship to each nearby star within a reasonable distance. (heavily dependent on maximum drive possible.) Since we know 0.1c is doable with existing technologies, then we know that journeys of 10ly or less are doable for a civilization with our own technologies right now.
When the World Ship arrives at the destination star "Habitable Planets" are not needed! The civilization simply begins building another Dyson Sphere at that star using the stallar debris (comets, asteroids, dwarf planets, moons, etc,) It makes no difference whether or not there are habitable planets, because by the time a civilization can survive the 44-100 year journey to this star on a World Ship, they no longer need "planets" anyway.
Almost every star in the galaxy can support human life, and in quite enormous numbers of ~10^18 to 10^19 or more humans per star.
Therefore, looking for "habitable planets" is basicly an un-necessary waste of time. Simply pick a random start that is relatively young, fly to it in a World Ship, harvest Asteroids and comets, make a Dyson Sphere, repeat.
Gosh... that does sound easy. We should start right now.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 4 2009, 03:18 PM)
Gosh... that does sound easy. We should start right now.
Well, flying to a nearby starsystem and building a Dyson Sphere there is probably easier than flying to a farther-away star system to inhabit a "hopefully inhabitable planet" somewhere.
Also, if nobody is ever going to bother to even TRY to do space colonies, then they certainly won't ever be built.
A few short centuries ago, sailing around the world was very hard, but doable. Today it is a breeze and thousands of ships (and aircraft) do it all the time.
Well, flying to a nearby starsystem and building a Dyson Sphere there is probably easier than flying to a farther-away star system to inhabit a "hopefully inhabitable planet" somewhere.
Also, if nobody is ever going to bother to even TRY to do space colonies, then they certainly won't ever be built.
A few short centuries ago, sailing around the world was very hard, but doable. Today it is a breeze and thousands of ships (and aircraft) do it all the time.
QUOTE
Well, flying to a nearby starsystem and building a Dyson Sphere there is probably easier than flying to a farther-away star system to inhabit a "hopefully inhabitable planet" somewhere.
How do you know that?
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 4 2009, 03:52 PM)
How do you know that?
Because, flying to the nearest "hopefully habitable planet" requires a colony ship capable of surviving far longer.
Lifting off and landing on Earth-like planets wastes enormous amounts of energy every time it is done. Therefore, it makes sense to do this as seldom as possible.
When you think about it, if you had a colony ship capable of flying to another planet in another solar system, you wouldn't want to land it on that planet, because doing so is a huge waste of energy. You'd want to leave it in orbit so that it can be used in the future for mining and colonization without needing to once again pay the "price" of lifting such a large mega-structure into space again, etc.
Building a Dyson Megastructure, at least a Dyson Swarm certainly, requires far lower energy levels than you seem to realize. All the materials can be harvested in Space, and for the most part, using a combination of conventional rocketry and ion drives, at least during the early years. The most difficult part is completing the first World Ship because it is the pioneering endeavour.
After this, the civilization basicly grows geometrically because the civilization on the first World Ship can more easily construct additional ones than even the earth could. Since it's already in space, it is far cheaper for rockets and ion drives to lift off from the World Ship than from the Earth when mining additional asteroids and comets.
Earth's chief export becomes people and information. Its chief import becomes information and water (fusion.)
I admit, the timescales for the projects I am discussing are huge compared to most anything we imagine in modern times, but historically, enormous generational projects have been done by humanity: The Hebrew temples, the Pyramids, Puma Punku, The Great Wall, many ancient greek and roman structures. Many of these projects required almost a full human generation or more, and some of them, such as the pagan temples, served no actual practical function.
My World Ships would basicly not be "artificial planets," but would be more like the Orbital Platforms from the StarCraft universe. They are constructed modularly so that basicly, once you have one plan, you can construct any dyson megastructure of any scale by simply repeating the process over and over. Each ship is perhaps 10 kilometers long, 10 kilometers wide, and 1 or 2 kilometers thick self contained space-bourne megalopolis with its own farms, artificial oceans, and atmosphere (internal, airlocks, etc). This is about the size of a typical megalopolis on earth, except the degree of forward planning makes it far, far more efficient once constructed.
You get the atmosphere by harvesting water and methane(for the carbon) from the comets and icy moons and dwarf planets. The entire sun-side surface is covered by solar collectors of one type or another which is where it gets its primary power from. In the greater scheme of things, when the comets and asteroids are all used up, it will also get its primary material resources from the sun in the form of solar wind and other ejecta, which are then fused in reactors as needed to make materials needed to make other World Ships and replacement parts for itself.
So the components of the World Ship are modular, and the World Ship itself is but a module in a much larger megastructure.
As the first few World Ships begin to get old (many centuries into the project,) and better models of the world ship are invented (once there are several dozen of them,) Then human populations move to the new and improved models, and the old ones are eventually cannibalized for parts and resources: nothing gets wasted in a type 1.xx civilization.
The number of humans living in space would double roughly every 590 years, even if the earth sent no further colonists into space.
Question then begs, where will you find enough volunteers? How will we convince ourselves (or what kind of mentality) is going to be needed to have the cooperation of a lot of people?
QUOTE (z1000+Jul 4 2009, 05:34 PM)
Question then begs, where will you find enough volunteers? How will we convince ourselves (or what kind of mentality) is going to be needed to have the cooperation of a lot of people?
A similar question has already been answered several times in human history.
In the early 1600's, the European colonists left Europe for the "New World" and were willing to cross an ocean to settle in an almost completely un-explored continent. In the end, the entire eastern hemisphere benefitted from this, because today, the bread basket of the United States feeds entire nations which cannot feed themselves. Sometimes, the future benefits of an endeavour are far greater than anyone imagined ahead of time.
I would LOVE to be a part of a project like this, and I'm sure that there are a lot more people than you might realize who would like to be a part of it, if they only realized it isn't "just science fiction," but is really theoretically possible right now.
Seriously, why do you think science fiction is so popular? Because it delves right on the brink of discovery in a realm that so many people actually are interested in: space colonization. It is a fact that Space exploration Science Fiction is THE most popular and most money making genre, especially if you inflation adjust the classics from the 50's through the 80's.
http://www.imdb.com/boxoffice/alltimegross
The problem is, as I stated, people don't realize this is even possible.
The Orion Project (check wiki article,) was literally considered "doable" in the 1950's, before man even landed on the moon! Here we are 50 years later with no progress whatsoever, because the general public does not even realize this sort of thing can be done.
While true Dyson Spheres are currently beyond our ability, individual Dyson Swarm members (World Ships) are well within our capabilities, if organized.
Creating a Dyson Sphere would only be a matter of time, as you could make several million World Ships before you ever got anywhere near needing an entire Dyson Sphere anyway.
A similar question has already been answered several times in human history.
In the early 1600's, the European colonists left Europe for the "New World" and were willing to cross an ocean to settle in an almost completely un-explored continent. In the end, the entire eastern hemisphere benefitted from this, because today, the bread basket of the United States feeds entire nations which cannot feed themselves. Sometimes, the future benefits of an endeavour are far greater than anyone imagined ahead of time.
I would LOVE to be a part of a project like this, and I'm sure that there are a lot more people than you might realize who would like to be a part of it, if they only realized it isn't "just science fiction," but is really theoretically possible right now.
Seriously, why do you think science fiction is so popular? Because it delves right on the brink of discovery in a realm that so many people actually are interested in: space colonization. It is a fact that Space exploration Science Fiction is THE most popular and most money making genre, especially if you inflation adjust the classics from the 50's through the 80's.
http://www.imdb.com/boxoffice/alltimegross
The problem is, as I stated, people don't realize this is even possible.
The Orion Project (check wiki article,) was literally considered "doable" in the 1950's, before man even landed on the moon! Here we are 50 years later with no progress whatsoever, because the general public does not even realize this sort of thing can be done.
While true Dyson Spheres are currently beyond our ability, individual Dyson Swarm members (World Ships) are well within our capabilities, if organized.
Creating a Dyson Sphere would only be a matter of time, as you could make several million World Ships before you ever got anywhere near needing an entire Dyson Sphere anyway.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jul 4 2009, 05:14 PM)
Because, flying to the nearest "hopefully habitable planet" requires a colony ship capable of surviving far longer.
Do you have any idea the kind of energy and material needed to construct a Dyson sphere? The more feasible variants are usable only for solar power generation: They don't provide any significant habitation for the builders.
A colony ship is a far more feasible option, and landing on a planet doesn't require all that much energy in comparison to constructing a Dyson sphere.
Do you have any idea the kind of energy and material needed to construct a Dyson sphere? The more feasible variants are usable only for solar power generation: They don't provide any significant habitation for the builders.
A colony ship is a far more feasible option, and landing on a planet doesn't require all that much energy in comparison to constructing a Dyson sphere.
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 4 2009, 08:55 PM)
Do you have any idea the kind of energy and material needed to construct a Dyson sphere? The more feasible variants are usable only for solar power generation: They don't provide any significant habitation for the builders.
A colony ship is a far more feasible option, and landing on a planet doesn't require all that much energy in comparison to constructing a Dyson sphere.
I'm talking in terms of long term efficiency.
An orbital platform like I described could support millions upon millions of people.
I do admit that a TRUE Dyson Sphere may not be possible, certainly not with our existing technologies, but the Dyson Swarm is definitely much easier to do than colonizing a planet on a distant star.
We on earth don't need to build a Dyson Sphere in one generation. We only need to build one World Ship within a period of several generations.
The platform design I would suggest is modular enough to allow for the construction of huge arrays of solar collectors, which can be much larger(in sol-facing surface area) than the habitable portions of the structure.
The habitable structure might be 10kmx10kmx2km, and one 10kmx10km face of this is covered in solar collectors.
Cross section from the edge:
===$
===$
===$
###$
###$
###$
###$===========(Star is this Way)=============>
###$
###$
###$
===$
===$
(not to scale)
= is a space holder in the diagram
# = habitable structure
$ = Solar collectors
Other view
$$$
$#$
$$$
(to scale)
In this diagram, the "#" is the habitable zone, but there is another "$" superimposed over it.
in every direction you have another 10kmx10km panel of solar collectors.
Hey, if you like, we can do it both ways, eventually. Colonize planets AND make Dyson Megastructures.
A colony ship is a far more feasible option, and landing on a planet doesn't require all that much energy in comparison to constructing a Dyson sphere.
I'm talking in terms of long term efficiency.
An orbital platform like I described could support millions upon millions of people.
I do admit that a TRUE Dyson Sphere may not be possible, certainly not with our existing technologies, but the Dyson Swarm is definitely much easier to do than colonizing a planet on a distant star.
We on earth don't need to build a Dyson Sphere in one generation. We only need to build one World Ship within a period of several generations.
The platform design I would suggest is modular enough to allow for the construction of huge arrays of solar collectors, which can be much larger(in sol-facing surface area) than the habitable portions of the structure.
The habitable structure might be 10kmx10kmx2km, and one 10kmx10km face of this is covered in solar collectors.
Cross section from the edge:
===$
===$
===$
###$
###$
###$
###$===========(Star is this Way)=============>
###$
###$
###$
===$
===$
(not to scale)
= is a space holder in the diagram
# = habitable structure
$ = Solar collectors
Other view
$$$
$#$
$$$
(to scale)
In this diagram, the "#" is the habitable zone, but there is another "$" superimposed over it.
in every direction you have another 10kmx10km panel of solar collectors.
Hey, if you like, we can do it both ways, eventually. Colonize planets AND make Dyson Megastructures.
Dyson Sphere's are a last resort. You've pretty much got millions of years notice before you could no longer stay where you are.
It would be stupid to expend the number of resources for a Dyson's Sphere when you can send a minimally geneticly diverse enough crew to another planet. You could build a couple of billion planet finding telescopes and determine near exact conditions on any particular target planet before going there. Or simply send a robot ship to confirm that you want to go. All that takes less time than building a huge last resort.
It would be stupid to expend the number of resources for a Dyson's Sphere when you can send a minimally geneticly diverse enough crew to another planet. You could build a couple of billion planet finding telescopes and determine near exact conditions on any particular target planet before going there. Or simply send a robot ship to confirm that you want to go. All that takes less time than building a huge last resort.
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 4 2009, 08:55 PM)
Do you have any idea the kind of energy and material needed to construct a Dyson sphere? The more feasible variants are usable only for solar power generation: They don't provide any significant habitation for the builders.
A colony ship is a far more feasible option, and landing on a planet doesn't require all that much energy in comparison to constructing a Dyson sphere.
And yes, I know about how much material and energy are needed.
According to calculations that have already been done, there is enough matter in the planets, asteroids, and comets to construct a TRUE Dyson Sphere of only 3 methers thickness around the sun.
Clearly, that can't support human life.
HOWEVER when considering the time scales of which I am speaking, then throughout the millions and billions of years of future civilization, a Dyson Swarm could harvest enough material from the Sun itself in the form of Solar Wind and Mass Ejecta to complete the Dyson Sphere (or the next closest possible megastructure). This will take eons, but if you were building a Dyson Megastructure, you are obviously in it for the long haul anyway. Which is why starting with the much more manageable swarm/ring structure is the way to go. During this time they could still colonize other star systems.
Planet Lifting:
Rocky planets, moons, asteriods, comets, and dwarf planets can all be mined out by a series of self-replicating robotic "Planet lifting" robots.
The way this works is much like the Dr. said. A robot lands on a rocky body and replicates itself over and over until the entire surface of the planet is covered by robots. Then, with the exception of 1 robot at each pole, they all simultaneously lift off from the planet with cargo bays full of atmosphere or ores. By Newton's Shell theorem, they can each "approximately" ignore the mass of each other ship as they leave the planet. The robots remaining on the surface begin replicating themselves and repeat the process again. Each time an entire layer is removed, it gets easier because the total remaining mass of the planet is less, therefore less cost of liftoff.
The robots which left the planet deliver the contents of their cargo bays to human civiilzatons in world ships. Indeed, in some cases, the robot itself is the cargo, as its entire mass is recycled by the parent civilization. Other robots, after dropping off their cargo, travel to the icy planets, moons, and comets and planet lift water-ice and methane-ice from there. This process is repeated until all the bodies smaller than the gas giants are mined completely away and converted to World Ships.
A colony ship is a far more feasible option, and landing on a planet doesn't require all that much energy in comparison to constructing a Dyson sphere.
And yes, I know about how much material and energy are needed.
According to calculations that have already been done, there is enough matter in the planets, asteroids, and comets to construct a TRUE Dyson Sphere of only 3 methers thickness around the sun.
Clearly, that can't support human life.
HOWEVER when considering the time scales of which I am speaking, then throughout the millions and billions of years of future civilization, a Dyson Swarm could harvest enough material from the Sun itself in the form of Solar Wind and Mass Ejecta to complete the Dyson Sphere (or the next closest possible megastructure). This will take eons, but if you were building a Dyson Megastructure, you are obviously in it for the long haul anyway. Which is why starting with the much more manageable swarm/ring structure is the way to go. During this time they could still colonize other star systems.
Planet Lifting:
Rocky planets, moons, asteriods, comets, and dwarf planets can all be mined out by a series of self-replicating robotic "Planet lifting" robots.
The way this works is much like the Dr. said. A robot lands on a rocky body and replicates itself over and over until the entire surface of the planet is covered by robots. Then, with the exception of 1 robot at each pole, they all simultaneously lift off from the planet with cargo bays full of atmosphere or ores. By Newton's Shell theorem, they can each "approximately" ignore the mass of each other ship as they leave the planet. The robots remaining on the surface begin replicating themselves and repeat the process again. Each time an entire layer is removed, it gets easier because the total remaining mass of the planet is less, therefore less cost of liftoff.
The robots which left the planet deliver the contents of their cargo bays to human civiilzatons in world ships. Indeed, in some cases, the robot itself is the cargo, as its entire mass is recycled by the parent civilization. Other robots, after dropping off their cargo, travel to the icy planets, moons, and comets and planet lift water-ice and methane-ice from there. This process is repeated until all the bodies smaller than the gas giants are mined completely away and converted to World Ships.
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Jul 4 2009, 09:49 PM)
Dyson Sphere's are a last resort. You've pretty much got millions of years notice before you could no longer stay where you are.
It would be stupid to expend the number of resources for a Dyson's Sphere when you can send a minimally geneticly diverse enough crew to another planet. You could build a couple of billion planet finding telescopes and determine near exact conditions on any particular target planet before going there. Or simply send a robot ship to confirm that you want to go. All that takes less time than building a huge last resort.
The total net energy return for a Dyson Megastructure during it's lifetime is several orders of magnitude greater than the energy that goes into constructing it.
Move to another planet on a distant star, so what? You eventually end up right back here where we are on Earth again: A type 1 civilization, with only enough solar energy (due to surface area of the planet) to support a relatively small population compared to what the total population and living standards would be in a dyson swarm.
It would be stupid to expend the number of resources for a Dyson's Sphere when you can send a minimally geneticly diverse enough crew to another planet. You could build a couple of billion planet finding telescopes and determine near exact conditions on any particular target planet before going there. Or simply send a robot ship to confirm that you want to go. All that takes less time than building a huge last resort.
The total net energy return for a Dyson Megastructure during it's lifetime is several orders of magnitude greater than the energy that goes into constructing it.
Move to another planet on a distant star, so what? You eventually end up right back here where we are on Earth again: A type 1 civilization, with only enough solar energy (due to surface area of the planet) to support a relatively small population compared to what the total population and living standards would be in a dyson swarm.
G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz
I have packed my bags and I'm ready to go.
I have packed my bags and I'm ready to go.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jul 5 2009, 03:34 AM)
The total net energy return for a Dyson Megastructure during it's lifetime is several orders of magnitude greater than the energy that goes into constructing it.
Move to another planet on a distant star, so what? You eventually end up right back here where we are on Earth again: A type 1 civilization, with only enough solar energy (due to surface area of the planet) to support a relatively small population compared to what the total population and living standards would be in a dyson swarm.
A bigger problem to me is that you want to use technology to replicate nature when their is plenty of nature left. It isn't necessarily a wild estimate to say that there could be 10,000 "Earth II candidates" within 10,000 light years by the end of the Kepler survey. If 10 percent of those turn out to be "habitable" then human colonies could exist all over near space. And instead of a coupla/three Dyson Sphere's with people locked up inside them, you could have millions and billions of humans living happy lives on their respective "New Earths" in natural environs. Much more preferable to me. We are far enough removed for nature now ... I'll happy travel in a spaceship to some distant place ... but I want to put my feet on the ground when I get there.
Move to another planet on a distant star, so what? You eventually end up right back here where we are on Earth again: A type 1 civilization, with only enough solar energy (due to surface area of the planet) to support a relatively small population compared to what the total population and living standards would be in a dyson swarm.
A bigger problem to me is that you want to use technology to replicate nature when their is plenty of nature left. It isn't necessarily a wild estimate to say that there could be 10,000 "Earth II candidates" within 10,000 light years by the end of the Kepler survey. If 10 percent of those turn out to be "habitable" then human colonies could exist all over near space. And instead of a coupla/three Dyson Sphere's with people locked up inside them, you could have millions and billions of humans living happy lives on their respective "New Earths" in natural environs. Much more preferable to me. We are far enough removed for nature now ... I'll happy travel in a spaceship to some distant place ... but I want to put my feet on the ground when I get there.
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Jul 5 2009, 01:04 AM)
A bigger problem to me is that you want to use technology to replicate nature when their is plenty of nature left. It isn't necessarily a wild estimate to say that there could be 10,000 "Earth II candidates" within 10,000 light years by the end of the Kepler survey. If 10 percent of those turn out to be "habitable" then human colonies could exist all over near space. And instead of a coupla/three Dyson Sphere's with people locked up inside them, you could have millions and billions of humans living happy lives on their respective "New Earths" in natural environs. Much more preferable to me. We are far enough removed for nature now ... I'll happy travel in a spaceship to some distant place ... but I want to put my feet on the ground when I get there.
It isn't simply a matter of "replicating nature".
Its a matter of survival.
Living on 1 planet in 1 solar system gives you X chance of survival.
Living on 2 planets in one solar system, or 1 planet plus a bunch of self-sufficient World Ships gives you greater chance of survival.
Living on multiple planets and/or platforms in multiple star systems gives more chance of survival.
It isn't simply a matter of "replicating nature".
Its a matter of survival.
Living on 1 planet in 1 solar system gives you X chance of survival.
Living on 2 planets in one solar system, or 1 planet plus a bunch of self-sufficient World Ships gives you greater chance of survival.
Living on multiple planets and/or platforms in multiple star systems gives more chance of survival.
QUOTE (Quantum_Conundrum+Jul 5 2009, 07:13 PM)
It isn't simply a matter of "replicating nature".
Its a matter of survival.
Living on 1 planet in 1 solar system gives you X chance of survival.
Living on 2 planets in one solar system, or 1 planet plus a bunch of self-sufficient World Ships gives you greater chance of survival.
Living on multiple planets and/or platforms in multiple star systems gives more chance of survival.
Mankind is oft too fascinated with his own imaginings and how technology can help achieve them. In this case, there isn't anything that you could say that would lead me to chase your solution when a much simpler one is available.
1. Find habitable planet(s)
2. Survey each robotically
3. Send a genetically large enough group to ensure it's continuation
As you say ... a Dyson's Sphere would take EONS to complete. A one way ship to take 100 or so folks could be done in less than 25 years (assuming of course you have a drive that will allow you to limit travel to a reasonable time frame -- 20 to 40 years?).
So within 200 years of starting the process you have established colonies on at least 8 habitable planets.
Yeah ... in 2.5 billion years or so humans won't want to be on Earth anymore. I guess by that time humans could be all over the universe like ugly on an ape.
Its a matter of survival.
Living on 1 planet in 1 solar system gives you X chance of survival.
Living on 2 planets in one solar system, or 1 planet plus a bunch of self-sufficient World Ships gives you greater chance of survival.
Living on multiple planets and/or platforms in multiple star systems gives more chance of survival.
Mankind is oft too fascinated with his own imaginings and how technology can help achieve them. In this case, there isn't anything that you could say that would lead me to chase your solution when a much simpler one is available.
1. Find habitable planet(s)
2. Survey each robotically
3. Send a genetically large enough group to ensure it's continuation
As you say ... a Dyson's Sphere would take EONS to complete. A one way ship to take 100 or so folks could be done in less than 25 years (assuming of course you have a drive that will allow you to limit travel to a reasonable time frame -- 20 to 40 years?).
So within 200 years of starting the process you have established colonies on at least 8 habitable planets.
Yeah ... in 2.5 billion years or so humans won't want to be on Earth anymore. I guess by that time humans could be all over the universe like ugly on an ape.
Yes! ready am i to go clolonisation
for myself it will be valuable experionce if happen
for myself it will be valuable experionce if happen
haha, hopefully there wont be an Empire to fight against.
Im a traveller, i dream at night of the stars. I wont go into detail.
Im a traveller, i dream at night of the stars. I wont go into detail.
QUOTE (Luke Skywalker+Aug 11 2009, 08:13 AM)
haha, hopefully there wont be an Empire to fight against.
Im a traveller, i dream at night of the stars. I wont go into detail.
HEY EVERYBODY, LUKE SKYWALKER IS HERE!!!
Im a traveller, i dream at night of the stars. I wont go into detail.
HEY EVERYBODY, LUKE SKYWALKER IS HERE!!!
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