To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: Traditional Armor, About Now Obsolete
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > News discussions > Technology News

philip347
With advances in new technologies, the traditional eight to fifteen inches of high quality steel, to protect warships, armored vehicles and troops via a vest, is just about now obsolete.

This is so, as the rate of delivery of some projectiles, is over fourteen thousand feet per second, in velocity.

This feature allows the traditional army tank and armored personnel carriers, to have their hulls pierced from above by an airburst projectile, or below, by ground based remote activated mines.

Newer concepts, such as use of very heavy metals, sandwiched in between layers of Kevlar and other new synthetic materials, plus ceramics, have made a challenge to the anti-tank rocket.

This shift in thinking, may eventually out phase the average battlefield soldier, as the battlefield might be made so lethal, that near to one hundred percent troop causalities, can be sustained, during the first engagements.

What it boils down to, is remotely authorized vehicles, looking for humans, probably on both sides, which made make humans a very scarce commodity on the battlefield, in a hurry.

With this new technology coming about, as what would be the base of technical prowess placed on the advanced battlefield, the concept of a human troop mixed with a newer type of high mobility robot, seems almost a certainty.
wcelliott
That's been the trend for at least the last decade, and something I've been trying to promote (from the inside) for the last three decades, getting our guys out of the warzone.

The better-armor/better-warhead trend has been going on for millenia. Armor used to be leather, then arrowheads got made out of bronze that could be sharpened to pierce the leather, so they added metal rings to the leather armor...

I think it's premature to declare the trend to be over and that the warheads won, we now have "reactive armor" that blows the warhead to bits before the shaped-charge detonates completely, making a "blowtorch" to penetrate the armor. It's only a matter of time before "reactive armor" becomes "proactive armor", sensing the incoming projectile and shooting it out of the air before the warhead gets within lethal range.

The trend has been continuous for thousands of years, I don't see any end coming soon.
Zarkov
QUOTE
I don't see any end coming soon


I do... THE end

IMO war must be outlawed, otherwise the end is near

Soldiers, governments will not stop, madness has infected the whole Earth... and they will still be fighting when the snow is 3 km above your head

pathetic earthlings
w6nrw
Man's propensity to fight will end when we engineer the man animal's
eyes around to the side of the head . . . as they are in a rabbit . . . .
wcelliott
Geopolitical struggles are based in chaos, and are governed by Chaos Theory.

A chaotic political environment is characterized by unequal distributions of resources and populations growing at exponential rates. So long as us "earthlings" live in countries with governments that are looking-out for the welfare of their own populations more-so than the "overall good of mankind", then wars will happen. It's like our (US) policies regarding fighting forest fires. We eradicate all small forest fires to protect the threatened trees/houses in the forests adjacent to the small fires, and congratulate ourselves when we "contain" the small fires preventing them from wiping out the whole forests. It's hard to argue for the counter-position of letting everything flammable burn unchecked, and if I owned a house surrounded by pine trees, I'd be all in-favor of the current policies.

The problem is that it's natural for trees to get to a point where they're all in a state where they're ready to burn to the ground, but the current policy has the effect of setting up all forests so that they're right on the very edge of one single catastrophic forest fire and keeping them there at that state. It's like every tree is a domino set up next to another, and hoping that nothing ever knocks any single one of them over.

Geopolitics is the same. We avoid/suppress/halt all small wars from breaking out with the best of intentions, but the net effect is that all countries approach the point where every country's government is so p!ssed at its neighbors that, given an opportunity, they'd wipe each other off the map if they had a glimmer of a chance of getting away with it. That's just Chaos Theory in-action.

The solution is, in some peoples' minds, worst than the problem itself. We need one world government that would have nothing to gain from a local war, as all wars would, by definition, be civil wars, like you had in Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was not a place that most people would want to live in, with Serbs and Croats hating each other but being forced by the government to get along peaceably. As soon as the government of Yugoslavia weakened, wars between blood enemies broke out and "ethnic cleansing" (genocide) ensued.

Likewise Iraq was held together by tyranny under Saddam Hussein, and when he screwed-up and went after Kuwait's resources by force, it triggered a war that weakened his regime and now there's a civil war there with the US trying to force people who hate each others' guts to get along with each other, the only problem being that you can't simultaneously wear white hats and instill sufficient fear in the populace to keep them from taking opportunities to car-bomb street markets full of innocent people that one side or the other hates irrationally over differences of interpretation of the vagaries of the Koran.

War is something to avoid, for obvious reasons, the problem is that the only effective means of avoiding wars is the establishment of a "New World Order" that includes Secret Police spying on individuals and suppressing the Free Will of the people.

The trick to making this less necessary is to integrate the various cultures of the world's population, and that can be surprisingly easy, once you get the killings to stop on both sides. It involves television and music. I knew that the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse when I saw a TV documentary about the teenage girls in Moscow dressing like Madonna and passing around pirated videos copied from MTV broadcasts. "The Material Girl" was incongruous with the philosophical foundation of socialism, where everyone was supposed to work hard for everyone else's benefit. Madonna was cool in Moscow, and that made materialistic Western values cool, too, in a country where it wasn't acceptable to be materialistic. The Soviet-raised kids weren't buying the communist ideology. The collapse of the system was inevitable from that point on. It wasn't Reagan or Star Wars that ended the cold war, IMO, it was MTV, especially Madonna reveling in materialistic decadence.

I doubt that the historians will ever give her the credit she deserves, but that's how I see it.

Likewise, once reruns of our current TV shows get translated into the various languages of the world and become available to everyone via satellite TV (as is happening now), you'll see people everywhere wanting to live like Americans do, materialistic and decadent and lacking any entrenched ideology (other than acceptance of differences). When China and Iran get the Playboy Channel via satellite TV, we've got a sound foundation for a unified world culture where the people will adopt our way of looking at things, and maybe then we can stop worrying about WWIII.
Zarkov
QUOTE
We need one world government


and then world coups



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We need one world government


and then world coups



where everyone was supposed to work hard for everyone else's benefit Madonna was cool in Moscow,
The Soviet-raised kids weren't buying the communist ideology. The collapse of the system was inevitable from that point on.


So its cool to become debauched, drug f^cked, and materialistic...the fine art of doing nothing

Yes destroy what was good, and replace with deceit, decadence and violence

great,,, Meanwhile the rest of LIFE is on the edge while earthlings have an orgy of madness

really really pathetic earthling, you have completely lost your way

can't wait for Armageddon.
wcelliott
Well, aside from her decadence and materialism, she's also a pretty talented songwriter and dancer. (But that was incidental to my point.)

I'm not necessarily *supporting* the notion of "a New World Order" or a single, secret-police state running the world, I'm just pointing out the alternatives to the peaceniks who want all wars to stop and also to disarm ourselves, simultaneously.

We Americans get blamed for every war, even the ones we don't start, but it's an imperfect world and we're a long way away from even living in a world where other countries don't *want* wars. We never get credit for the wars we've prevented. Maybe we shouldn't act like World Police ("Team America: World Police" - the first DVD I ever bought), but we're inevitably more like the biggest bouncer in the strip club, when fights break out between drunken morons, people *expect* us to do something to stop the fight.

And from my signature, below (which derives from Aristotle's Ethics), we share in the responsibility for things that we foresee and don't try to prevent or stop.

The laws are set up such that you can (almost) never get into legal trouble for doing nothing, but we are *ethically* bound to intervene when we are the ones who can and feel we should. Deciding not to act is a decision to not-act, and that makes us responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our inaction.

Anybody here old enough to remember that story that came out of New York, where a woman was raped for 20 minutes in an alleyway behind an apartment building, screaming for help the whole time, and finally stabbed to death, and nobody in the apartment building called the cops because "they didn't want to get involved"? They were already involved. They knew what was happening and took no action. It's a sad state of affairs in this world, but that sort of thing happens all the time and there are too many instances for us to get involved in all of them.

In 2004, a 16-yr-old girl was hanged in Iran for getting raped by a 54-yr-old cab driver. The "court" took the position that she was "asking for it" by being out after dark without a male escort.

In Australia, there were a series of rapes traced back to one group of recent immigrants. When they got caught, their cleric stated on TV that it wasn't their fault, the rape victims were dressed provocatively. He actually said, "You can't put raw meat before a dog and not expect the dog to eat it."

It's just too early for the US to take the "Let's all sit down and work out our differences like gentlemen" approach. That might work in some specific instances, and it's great when it does, but there are still places where they're arming 10-yr-olds with machetes and ordering them to slaughter prisoners of war.

Diplomacy doesn't have a chance of working unless you've got a credible threat to back it up.
Zarkov
QUOTE
"they didn't want to get involved"? They were already involved.


well, so true, in a sane world

To get involved implies involvement with wisdom and sanity, not self interest, and definitely not from madness

IMO, the western world is mad, self interested and only gets involved when there is cake to gain..... this IMO is immoral...... and yes, one would wish for a world policeman...but not the USA or any other insane nation

Many misdeeds occur in the world... some are from ignorant but good intent...others are just plainly for selfish ends, some are perpetuated to ensure a lesson to the whole is learned

In this world of toxic pollution, many acts are not beneficial to stability,.... all the people are "insane" (intoxicated) all the time so in effect to step into someone else's house in a domestic is counter-productive... really no matter what is occurring.... all deeds and misdeeds bring about local learning.... and this world needs a lot of learning NOW, because it has not much time left.

War has never been about learning..... it has always been about selfish acts...never for the benefit of the whole..so it is anti LIFE and therefore EVIL (not in a religious sense).

Until the biochemistry of people as a whole is cleaned up... you have madness, and with madness comes a lack of concern for consequences, no fear and claims that DOG is on my side

pathetic earthlings, you will destroy until you die... only a few of your years away now
misery for all is all you crave for
iseason
Hi all

War is just a lolly scramble for adults. But you must know your target audience.


Don't just throw sweets, for those who want sour lollies
Don't give hard candy to jelly connoisseurs
Make sure there are toys for the boys
Barbie "hospital dress up for the girls"

Construction sets,viewfinders (for those who couldn't get to the party)
Must have poppers , noisemakers and NORMAL paraphernalia.

Limit the parents to the minimum needed to ensure they have fun, but not so many as to restrain the "free expression of children".

By the time they are finished, put them to bed to recover and plan who's party they will attend next week.

Cheers
Iseason
Zarkov
sweets

mmmh

What did the Us give Iraqi children?????




















Bomb Bombs
iseason
QUOTE (Zarkov+Sep 30 2008, 02:08 PM)
sweets

mmmh

What did the Us give Iraqi children?????




















Bomb Bombs

I was being sarcastic
Zarkov
bump
wcelliott
The latest war in Iraq was the first in history in which all bombing missions were deliberately planned to *AVOID* civilian casualties.

Precision-guided munitions cost more than dumb "iron bombs". We spent more money on the war than we had to to achieve our military objectives.

And it didn't happen that way by accident, the US has been spending a lot of its money on protecting our troops *AND* avoiding civilian casualties ("collateral damage"), putting its money where its ethical principles are.

We don't do it for fun, we don't do it for Dr. Strangelove-type desire for glory through war. We do it because we *aren't* bloodthirsty war-mongers. We're the biggest bouncer in the strip club, and sometimes we have to intervene when some jerk starts a fight.

Who else is going to step-up? France?
philip347
WC, please place an according re, to whoever you are replying too in this thread?

As asked news services, the apparent use of a new type of Russian weapons, that can penetrate the M-1 Abrams laterally.
2. History of antitank weapons, the charged shape utilizing molten copper, to burn through armor plating, at high velocities.
3.Aviation Week and Space Technology, the use of both air burst weapons, which exceed the fourteen thousand foot per second closing range, to atop an armored vehicle and high velocity air dispersed mines, which drill trough heavy plating, from beneath.

On androids, methods of manufacture, which entails that once a product goes through full scale industrial production, that that item will become more and more advanced.
Capracus
ll
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.