Time Travel... Prove It!

Fric

9th August 2009 - 09:55 PM

Hello from Portugal

1st of all i wanna apologize my English..., if you cant understand it please say so and i will try to explain with other words.

So... do you think time travel is possible? We don't know... but we can try to prove it... the main idea is if everyone knows that all human kind is waitting for the first time travel to be on a precise date, when time travel gets possible then the first date they (in the far future) will try is this date.

I'm trying to spread the date 5 April 2010... thru space... and thru time

I have a couple of videos where i think it can be easily explain... the blog that support all this crazy idea is @ 5April2010.blogspot.com

What do you think? I should be on a medical institute to treat this crazy idea? Or does it makes some sense but of course it can't be done? Or... it will be a success?

Again, sorry my bad English... and thanks a lot...

Quantum_Conundrum

9th August 2009 - 11:13 PM

There is some very simple evidence which we already have which strongly suggests that time travel by humans will never be discovered.

If time travel had been invented in the future, they definitely would have travelled into the past, at least to observe certain...controversial... events: i.e. the birth and miracles of Jesus, for example.

Having video, audio,a nd even forensic proof of these events, anyone who had this proof would certainly feel convicted to share it with all people of all eras.

Since this has not happened, it is unlikely that humanity will EVER discover time travel.

AlphaNumeric

10th August 2009 - 11:44 AM

A simple argument against you QC is that time travellers deem the past as untouchable, lest they destroy their own timeline by altering history and possibly preventing their own existence and so the construction of a time machine. Hence it might be illegal to travel back in time to a moment before the invention of the technology and even criminals can see the logic in not destroying their own past! In the TV show 'Dr Who' time travel on the planet where The Time Lords evolved is forbidden so as to avoid distruption events which lead to the invention of a time machine.

Alternatively, time travel into the past might not be possible. It's been shown that theoretical time machines can be constructed in general relativity but they only allow travel back to the moment they are first turned on, so you can travel forward in time and then back to your 'home time' but not further back. The beauty of this is that you avoid the Grandfather Paradox which time travel into the past can imply.

RobDegraves

10th August 2009 - 03:51 PM

QUOTE

The beauty of this is that you avoid the Grandfather Paradox which time travel into the past can imply.

Actually you do not.

Any time travel, in the way that we normally assume, results in some paradox. For example, even traveling back in time to your own "home" time.. ie. the point where you first turned on the machine (whatever that might be), could be a paradox. What if you went back and killed yourself ... you would have never gone back , etc.

However, arguing for or against time travel tends to be an argument based on what we don't know rather than the little that we do know.

Currently science sees time as dimension, like height, width, etc. except that it has different properties and you can only move in one direction. At this time, no one really knows why time only allows you to move forward. One possible result of moving backwards in time is that we would be gaining an additional dimension, and thus would not be normally perceptible to people who do not have that additional dimension, just as people living in two dimensions (depth and width) would have a hard time perceiving someone who was "above" them.

In any case, it's all pure speculation until more is discovered about one of the most fundamental forces of our universe.

flyingbuttressman

10th August 2009 - 04:00 PM

Ever see Primer? That has to be the most realistic depiction of time travel that I have seen.

In the movie, the inventors figure out a way to travel backwards in time, but they can only travel between when the machine is turned on and when it is turned off. They get in the machine just as it turns off and get out just as it turns on. Unfortunately for them, they cannot "skip" the time in between. If they want to travel 6 hours back in time, they must spend 6 hours in the machine. Things start getting extremely complicated when they try to correct their own mistakes.

In the movie, paradoxes are handled thus: The most recent iteration is the only one that matters. If you kill your grandfather, you won't retroactively die.

lzurha

11th August 2009 - 05:01 AM

well good argument but if we learned time travel in the future then we wouldnt come back to the past becouse it is dangerus to change the past the futur would be diffrent.

so if we did learn timetravel in the futur we probably learned that it is wrong to misuse time travel other then learning about the past . timetravel if possible should be used by matured race of poeple are race a of right now is notmature anuff to use it

Fric

16th August 2009 - 09:25 PM

Added a new movie to the blog:
5april2010.blogspot.com

Attempts to illustrate how the first trip will be happen...

Please, if you have any suggestion don't hesitate

I would appreciate if you pass the message! A link to the blog would be greatly appreciated

Thanks a lot!

rpenner

17th August 2009 - 03:43 AM

To expand on AlphaNumeric's answer which ends with:

QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Aug 10 2009, 11:44 AM)

The beauty of this is that you avoid the Grandfather Paradox which time travel into the past can imply.

Actually, a switched on time machine changes the connectedness of space time in it's future light cone. So the classical grandfather paradox of the HG Wells time machine becomes a simple quantum physics question of a space-time with closed time-like curves: Can an effect erase its cause? The answer is no. But, then some effects may not have causes. And some cases of a particle interacting with itself in the past is experimentally indistinguishable from two identical particles interacting in the past and going on to have swapped futures.

Space-time in the future light cone of a switched-on time machine is different. Evolution and computation with closed time-like curves are enhanced. Your future descendants are free to visit you, murder you, and use your body to create/inseminate their earlier forms/ancestors. But in doing so they will not "alter" the world-path of the information flow. They will simply be doing what always was. So if you are the least bit suspicious that any human might have time-traveling descendants who might have plans to do you in, you had best not switch on that Time Machine.

light in the tunnel

17th August 2009 - 04:10 PM

I suggest reading the thread on time as information. Time travel is not possible because the universe does not exist in sequential moments that exist independently of each other. The universe exists in a continuous present and the appearance of time is a subjective perception made possible by the human ability to recognize stored information as being reminiscent of something else they've seen at a previous point in space-time.

The relationship between objects in space is characterized by motion. If you walk out of a room and walk back into it the next day, you remember the same room as one you encountered in "the past" even though it is just the latest expression of energy-interactions (molecular, molar, sub-atomic, gravitational, etc.) you are exposed to.

The only possibility for time travel would involve being able to detach you subjective interpolation of the physical world in terms of time from the objective relations of that world. If you would adequately accomplish this, past could theoretically be experienced as future and the directionality of time backward. You could experience death as birth as your life rewinds from your real death which took place when you dissolved into your mother's uterus.

In a way, this way of looking at life makes more sense with regards to the indestructiblity of matter/energy. I.e. if matter and energy don't/can't die, then doesn't it make sense to have a logic of life-progression that moves from death to birth, instead of the reverse? The big question then would be, "is their life before birth?" (where birth is defined as the moment when an old body ceases to function.)

The same matter/energy can never be co-present in the same space with another variation of itself. All co-presence effects in the universe are caused by photons from the same source following diverent paths through space-time curvature. You may be able to see the past as if it is the present, and subsequently define your current time as the future since the past would appear to be occurring in the lens you are looking through. However, to communicate with the "past" you are seeing, you would need to send electromagnetic radiation back through the same path the light you are seeing took, which would mean that to the people you are watching, you would appear as a figure from the past.

Confused2

17th August 2009 - 04:42 PM

Requires one rabbit, a large basket and a time machine.

Place rabbit in basket at t_0
Remove rabbit from basket at t_1
Take rabbit back to t_0 and place rabbit in basket with original rabbit.
Go back to t_1, remove both rabbits
Take both rabbits back to t_0+
Place rabbits in basket with the existing rabbits.
Collect rabbits at t_1 and repeat.

Clearly the Universe is gaining energy in multiples of m_rabbit c^2
Where is it coming from?

Fric

24th August 2009 - 09:58 PM

QUOTE (Confused2+Aug 17 2009, 04:42 PM)

Requires one rabbit, a large basket and a time machine.

Place rabbit in basket at t_0
Remove rabbit from basket at t_1
Take rabbit back to t_0 and place rabbit in basket with original rabbit.
Go back to t_1, remove both rabbits
Take both rabbits back to t_0+
Place rabbits in basket with the existing rabbits.
Collect rabbits at t_1 and repeat.

Clearly the Universe is gaining energy in multiples of m_rabbit c^2
Where is it coming from?

Rabits... and more rabits... thats a matrix thing

I'm having some difficulty getting this big... is it because it's not a good idea?

Can you advise me a non intrusive way to publicity this idea?

Thanks

Joeb

25th August 2009 - 12:06 AM

Time travel is not possible. " Time" as we know it is defined as - The record/ intervals of how events unfold within a field. How "time travel" was even thought of was with Einstien, showing that a clock/ time slows down the faster you move through space. All that is happening is as you move through space with a high rate of velocity. The field you are in apply's pressure to you/clock/particle. Squishing the field within the particle/ you/vehicle. If you go fast enough there could be enough pressure to almost stop things, maybe a form of "suspended animation" at it's best.

In this theory,( result of experiments), we might be able to go great distances and experience little aging, because our internal clock will have slowed down. But to go ahead in time, or back in time. Time would have to have a direction, to have a direction you need to have a front or a back. Does time have a "face", might seem silly to ask, but if you are going in one direction and you turn around and go backwards. If you do not have a front, then, are you not going backwards, but just really going in another direction.

To go ahead in time the you need to go back to you original time for a point of reference!!!

AlexG

25th August 2009 - 12:51 AM

QUOTE

Time would have to have a direction,

It does. The direction of Time is established by entropy, which always increases.

Beastor

25th August 2009 - 08:10 AM

Will entropy ever run out?

Joeb

25th August 2009 - 11:23 AM

Alex G.

If space/time is always expanding moving outward through entropy,does this not give rise to thinking of the universe as a "blackhole". This expansion would hold true to " the law of thermal dynamics.

Alex I thought before in another conversation you were mentioning that there is no centre of the universe.

Whether there is a direction in time or not. I do believe there has or had to be a centre at one time. How could we have a big bang theory or big release theory ( a black hole that has consumed to much matter, instead of a bang, just a release).

Do you agree with me about squishing time, Einstien's experiment. Even if you new a direction, you would need to find what negative time was, or you would only reach zero time.

AlexG

25th August 2009 - 04:54 PM

QUOTE

If space/time is always expanding moving outward through entropy

This is a meaningless statement. Entropy is not a direction, and it's not a mechanism. It is the state of order and disorder of a system.

Yes, there is no center of the universe, and there is no direction to expansion.

Your understanding of the BB is faulty. You treat it as though it were an energy release through space which took place at a definite location in space. It is not. It is the expansion of space/time itself, and takes place everywhere.

Confused2

25th August 2009 - 09:29 PM

It strikes me that any rabbit that tried to go backwards in time would immediately bump into itself coming the other way (as it were).
-C2.

Granouille

25th August 2009 - 10:26 PM

Wouldn't that cause an explosion of rabbits?

AlexG

26th August 2009 - 02:20 AM

QUOTE (Granouille+Aug 25 2009, 05:26 PM)

Wouldn't that cause an explosion of rabbits?

There's a reason for the expression 'multiplying like rabbits'. And it's not because they're good at math.

Fric

13th September 2009 - 02:27 PM

Hey hey :=)

Added a new movie to the blog:
5april2010.blogspot.com/

iseason

14th September 2009 - 08:53 AM

QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 26 2009, 05:54 AM)

This is a meaningless statement. Entropy is not a direction, and it's not a mechanism. It is the state of order and disorder of a system.

Yes, there is no center of the universe, and there is no direction to expansion.

Your understanding of the BB is faulty. You treat it as though it were an energy release through space which took place at a definite location in space. It is not. It is the expansion of space/time itself, and takes place everywhere.

Hi AlexG ...all

probably the most sensible part of this discussion was a few posts ago where 'present' was seen as absolute. For anything to be perceived as time, it must be included within a contained parameter. That parameter is "by which method are you measuring your time frame".

Time , as a concept, is never independent, but relies on somebody measuring the space and motion of the surrounding universe. No matter which part of the universe you "choose" to measure, that does not affect what actually occurred.

In order to revert to a previous "time" you must also compel the rest of the objects and positions in the universe to do likewise. Then in order to be able to measure a progression in time that is similar to what you experienced, the progression must not alter.

This is against the random nature of the universe AND ENTROPY, thermodynamics and every reasoned science EXCEPT TIME TRAVEL THEORY, which tends to use one base likely behavior anomaly and ignores all else. Time is a concept based on measuring space and motion. It has nothing in it's own right to give.

It's like saying that the letter A is responsible for language on earth.

A , is simply part of the process of creating language. Every one KNOWS we invented the concept because it made communication easier. Why is it so hard to see that time is a concept to measure things that happen...AND NO MORE.

Cheers
Iseason

light in the tunnel

14th September 2009 - 02:54 PM

QUOTE (Beastor+Aug 25 2009, 08:10 AM)

Will entropy ever run out?

Entropy is a process of relatively organized matter.
While matter "disorganizes" as a rule, it is also subject to organizing processes constantly as a result of life processes and other processes, organic and artificial.
When a cow eats grass, the grass "entropies" through its digestive system until it comes out the other end.
Then the stuff that's at the other end composts into fertilizer, which receives seeds and runners from other grass, rain, and sunlight, which cause the compost to "de-entropy," or organize, into growing grass, which may then be subject to the entropy process once again when the cow gets hungry.

Thinking of entropy as a deleterious process with the assumption that organized matter is static leads to the notion that things are in a unidirectional process of decay, and that the best way to prevent the destruction of organized matter is to slow the entropy process.

To be sure, there are good reasons to resist destruction and decay, e.g. by brushing your teeth and not blowing up buildings. But much of the entropy that goes on is part of processes that prepare matter for renewing anti-entropy processes.

Think, for example, of the artist or museum preservationist who would define a junk yard for cars as a museum and forbid people from pulling used parts off the wrecks to keep other cars on the road longer. This would turn the junkyard into a rusting heap of metal, and speed up the time until other cars on the road have to be junked because there are no more working parts to replace broken parts.

Both rusting and disassembly are forms of entropy, but occurring on different levels, with different consequences on human efforts to resist entropy. To the extent that utilizing the resources needed to produce new cars and parts intensifies entropy processes in various aspects of the natural environment, disassembling junk cars into re-usable parts is a form of entropy that may displace the entropy of rusting, and by slowing that entropy process, reduce resource-harvesting processes that intensify entropy in the natural environment.

Staying applied in specific examples and contexts can help avoid gross generalizations about physical processes, like entropy, that confound any understanding of how they occur in practice.

light in the tunnel

14th September 2009 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (iseason+Sep 14 2009, 08:53 AM)

In order to revert to a previous "time" you must also compel the rest of the objects and positions in the universe to do likewise.

Except that anytime I try this with a wrist watch, my boss refuses to be compelled to move the arms of her watch into the same position as mine! Oh, if she only understood physics!:)

iseason

8th November 2009 - 04:39 AM

QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Sep 15 2009, 03:59 AM)

Except that anytime I try this with a wrist watch, my boss refuses to be compelled to move the arms of her watch into the same position as mine! Oh, if she only understood physics!:)

light in the tunnel

funny observation. mine is caught in a time warp of previous centuries wages.lol

seriously though, I get frustrated at seeing so much energy of reasonably sensible (otherwise) persons go into paradox's involving time travel. Because time is a measurement tool only, it is entirely based around where things are in the relative universe and how they reposition in a "time measured" fashion....Time ISN't something...there is nothing to travel THROUGH.

This frustration is also apparent to me when talking about what is actually happening. We seem to be quite capable of stripping back to bare bones most observations. But when you say "time is not a thing" every one makes excuses as to why we cannot do without it. sure..we cannot measure without it,but we can break down events enough to see that time is only necessary to follow what is happening. Knowing what is happening is better judged by studying the order.

Cheers
Iseason

tikay

15th November 2009 - 02:41 AM

QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Aug 17 2009, 08:10 AM)

I suggest reading the thread on time as information. Time travel is not possible because the universe does not exist in sequential moments that exist independently of each other. The universe exists in a continuous present and the appearance of time is a subjective perception made possible by the human ability to recognize stored information as being reminiscent of something else they've seen at a previous point in space-time.

The relationship between objects in space is characterized by motion. If you walk out of a room and walk back into it the next day, you remember the same room as one you encountered in "the past" even though it is just the latest expression of energy-interactions (molecular, molar, sub-atomic, gravitational, etc.) you are exposed to.

The only possibility for time travel would involve being able to detach you subjective interpolation of the physical world in terms of time from the objective relations of that world. If you would adequately accomplish this, past could theoretically be experienced as future and the directionality of time backward. You could experience death as birth as your life rewinds from your real death which took place when you dissolved into your mother's uterus.

In a way, this way of looking at life makes more sense with regards to the indestructiblity of matter/energy. I.e. if matter and energy don't/can't die, then doesn't it make sense to have a logic of life-progression that moves from death to birth, instead of the reverse? The big question then would be, "is their life before birth?" (where birth is defined as the moment when an old body ceases to function.)

The same matter/energy can never be co-present in the same space with another variation of itself. All co-presence effects in the universe are caused by photons from the same source following diverent paths through space-time curvature. You may be able to see the past as if it is the present, and subsequently define your current time as the future since the past would appear to be occurring in the lens you are looking through. However, to communicate with the "past" you are seeing, you would need to send electromagnetic radiation back through the same path the light you are seeing took, which would mean that to the people you are watching, you would appear as a figure from the past.

I was reading this thread and thinking that i might be compelled to say that it seems that life is fairly well proved to be a holographic matrix? And that time has basically be shown by physics to be not, TRULY chronological, and that time travel is something easily done with the mind and not otherwise ~ but of course I have said these things before and been basically ignored, so that is when i said to myself....why does no one say time is not REALLY "Chronological" and that is just a sort of paradigm we need, and use to learn from eathly life while inhabiting human flesh.

Then I saw your post and I felt so, much less alone ~
Thanks!

iseason

15th November 2009 - 04:13 AM

QUOTE (tikay+Nov 15 2009, 03:41 PM)

I was reading this thread and thinking that i might be compelled to say that it seems that life is fairly well proved to be a holographic matrix? And that time has basically be shown by physics to be not, TRULY chronological, and that time travel is something easily done with the mind and not otherwise ~ but of course I have said these things before and been basically ignored, so that is when i said to myself....why does no one say time is not REALLY "Chronological" and that is just a sort of paradigm we need, and use to learn from eathly life while inhabiting human flesh.

Then I saw your post and I felt so, much less alone ~
Thanks!

hi Tikay

We need a movement for the non-proliferation of time travel theory.Don't stop saying something just because others want to ignore the obvious.
time travel is a bit like the lochness monster....."yeah, I saw it too!!..Couldn't get anything but this grainy photo that shows nothing....but let's keep talking about the lochness monster as if it actually exists.."

(the starter of the lie confessed some years ago).

Cheers
Iseason

Derek1148

15th November 2009 - 07:34 AM

Time is relative.

"Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now." - Bob Dylan

Retortist

20th November 2009 - 07:03 PM

If space-time is an inseparable fabric, no singularity of space and no singularity of time, it should be just as possible to time travel as it would be to travel a great distance via worm-hole. In demonstrations or the concepts, theoretical physicists will often use a string or paper to represent space. they will loop it or fold and say something clever like, "now we have traveled a huge distance in less time then if we were traveling at the speed of light."

My question is, what happened to the time part of this fabric? If time doesn't exist, why do we account for it? And if it is a string or piece of paper just like the space example, why can't we traverse time in the same manner ... without traveling any distance?

I walked through my time machine, and I forgot to calculate for the movement not only of earth, our solar system, the galaxy, but the universe as well. But just as luck would have it I ended up in the physics research lab on another planet far more advanced than ours, and they sent me back and said I should be careful, "you could have walked into a black-hole, supernova, or even worse, the other side of the wall of light at the edge of the universe."

[Moderator: Banned.]

iseason

20th November 2009 - 07:30 PM

Hi all

Yes, it's very easy to to with a simply piece of paper.Mathematicians have been doing the same trick with pencils for years.

But some how science fails to realize that the universe moves itself at a specific pace.Which we measure as 'time'.IF someday we could shift whole large sections of our potion of the universe into particular configurations artificially,then perhaps we could time travel.
This is simply akin to removing all the trees from south America to turn it into a golf course.The only thing you did was prevent the natural course of an environment to suit what you wanted to achieve.It would become an anomaly in what the universe would have done if we hadn't done anything at all.And it would affect that environment in similar fashion to how we have affected the earth.
We have already advanced (negatively) the course that this planet was on. Woe to us if we ever learn to make Stella bulldozer on such as scale to test such a petty desire.

Cheers
Iseason

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