QUOTE
The conditions of the early times are imprinted on this light. It is the result of what happened earlier, and a backlight for the later development of the universe. This light lost energy as the universe expanded over 13.7 billion years, so WMAP now sees the light as microwaves.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The conditions of the early times are imprinted on this light. It is the result of what happened earlier, and a backlight for the later development of the universe. This light lost energy as the universe expanded over 13.7 billion years, so WMAP now sees the light as microwaves. |
WMAP has answered many longstanding questions about the universe's age
WMAP has found evidence .............from the early universe.
QUOTE
Microwave light seen by WMAP from when the universe was only 380,000 years old,
Just one question
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
There are some serious questions to ask
Why are physicists so illogical, why are they all high on fantasy ?
There is hardly any theories they sprout "today" that actually could be based upon or in fact.
This forum weeds out "pseudoscience" but its playpen is all made of pseudoscience.... no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.
never question !!! the truth is nowhere to be found.... LOL
Y'all are sooooooooooooooooooo strange
Zarkov, science is not limited by your lack of imagination.
QUOTE
science is not limited by your lack of imagination.
indeed
but science is totally destroyed by a lack of 'rational' imagination.
The Universe does have some rules that human beings must adhere to, if their science is to have any bearing on the absolute reality they live in.
It is impossible to be at the end of your long journey before you start..... it is impossible to see the direct light from your birth when you are at your death.
When science declares its truths without the support of reality, then all beware....
we are in an age of deceit and madness
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
When science declares its truths without the support of reality, then all beware....
Says the guy who claims the moon landings were faked.
Most of the madness stems from narrow-minded paranoid wackos like you.
Says the guy who claims the moon landings were faked.
QUOTE
we are in an age of deceit and madness
Most of the madness stems from narrow-minded paranoid wackos like you.
QUOTE (TheDoc+Mar 8 2008, 06:19 PM)
Most of the madness stems from narrow-minded paranoid wackos like you.
Zarkov sets up a STRAW MAN argument.
Then he shows how that same argument is false.
Then he believes that this ability, to defeat strawman arguments of his own creation, makes him smarter than the actual scientists in their field of study.
Finally, be brags about his self deluded ability on a public forum and when he is repeatedly told AND SHOWN that he is wrong, he simply jumps to another thread and starts the same process over again, usually with a parting shot that the rest of us are simply stupid for not buying his hokum.
Only thing I can say in his favor is he is at least somewhat consistent in his delusions.
Arthur
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 10:48 PM)
Just one question
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
There are some serious questions to ask
You're not alone, I had the same question.
Extending the event horizon backward, it would seem like the earliest events would have already been seen.
The proposed explaination is inflation, where the universe temporarily expands at a faster than light rate, then the galaxies form at a large spatial separations and wait to receive the light emitted from the earliest events. That's what I got out of the publications.
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
There are some serious questions to ask
You're not alone, I had the same question.
Extending the event horizon backward, it would seem like the earliest events would have already been seen.
The proposed explaination is inflation, where the universe temporarily expands at a faster than light rate, then the galaxies form at a large spatial separations and wait to receive the light emitted from the earliest events. That's what I got out of the publications.
Yeah, Phyti that is one answer making sense.
On the other hand :)
Our universe may be expanding but it's doing it in spherical fashion, right.
So maybe it's reflected neutrinos etc that we see.
Or ::))
On the other hand :)
Our universe may be expanding but it's doing it in spherical fashion, right.
So maybe it's reflected neutrinos etc that we see.
Or ::))
Hi Zarkov, yor_on, phyti, TheDoc, adoucette et al,
I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!
Earth had to be made AFTER that light left......... so somehow according to physicist's logic, we got here FASTER..... like really much much faster than light can travel..... all mega-tera-tonnage of us..... and we even had time for a nice cuppa-tea before we looked down our telescope.
Inflation is not an answer...... madness is !
Thanks Good Elf for presenting "accepted logic",
I wonder which way one has to look to find the centre of the "Big Bang" ????
LOL.... human beings, y'all are bonkers.
But worse, when such propaganda is driven as truth into the minds of the young, science has become no better than politics..... nasty,... truth is the madness of the "peer reviewer". In this manner, Dr E had his bullshite accepted.
Earth you are in your last days, and you are too blinded to notice.
I C all the bottom crawling low life have found the silk purse and are trying to turn it into a sow's ear by shi-ting all over it!
How about either joining the conversation or take your crap to the nearest latrine over there ----->>
I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!
Earth had to be made AFTER that light left......... so somehow according to physicist's logic, we got here FASTER..... like really much much faster than light can travel..... all mega-tera-tonnage of us..... and we even had time for a nice cuppa-tea before we looked down our telescope.
Because what the WMAP "sees" is the energy from the ionized hydrogen gas of the early universe, and the energy that WMAP measures wasn't released until that gas had cooled to 3000° K.
Arguments from incredulity, as you like to do, are rather tiresome.
Why don't you skip the pop-level stories and take the time to find out WHAT the spacecraft actually senses before claiming that it makes no sense?
Here's a primer.
http://background.uchicago.edu/%7ewhu/begi...troduction.html
Arthur
I predicted these changes in orbital characteristics from math calculations 5 years ago, and of course that attracted the vermin when I posted.
Nice to see that the structure of space is somewhat as ESGT describes and that explanations are really rational as opposed to the total crap that has been dished out over the last 100 odd years.
Nice to see unworthy concocted theories bite the dust.
No doubt y'all still read your fairy stories, and still believe in footsteps on the Moon.
It is a 'Big Bang or not' question..... The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.
It is a 'Big Bang or not' question..... The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.
The answer that you have in mind denies your existence, does it not ?
Steady state allows me to have existed and to continue existing for an eternity. Which is correct.
Is the Universe expanding as fast as the ignorance of most of the posters here ?
The Universe IS NOT EXPANDING
Little bangs go on all the time, ......a local spin field expansion, then a collapse, only to then expand again..... it all is mediated by energy.
Why do human beings think they can formulate theory TRUTH when they hardly know any evidence, nor have they any real understanding of that which they think they already know.
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.
LOL
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
Simply stated the distances is immense and it takes time for light to travel immense distances... The Universe is like a "Hall of Mirrors".... the mirrors are "very far away" and imperfect but we can see reflections of what happened 13.7 BY ago simply because it take that much time for light to travel from then to get here.
The reason why the Universe is so large so fast is because everything is subject to "Universal Expansion" where every point of "stuff" is moving away from every other point of "stuff" (like points on the surface of an expanding balloon). This expansion is due to our Universe still expanding into "something" which may or may not be confined. This is a form of "frame dragging". Very soon (in terms of billions of years) "opposite sides of this expansion" will be moving away from the points on the opposite side faster than the local velocity of light. This occurs for the "bulk of the Universe" but not for any particular particle. This expansion is still infinitesimal in the volume of your room but something which "adds up" when you consider distances between galaxies.
This "frame dragging" is caused by falling freely in space, and apparently this process is accelerating as the Universe gets older. This means that the rate of expansion is still increasing. At some point light from some reaches in space "launched" in our direction will never reach us simply because the actual total distance between those distance places is expanding at a faster rate than light travels in trying to cross it. At that point in time "matter" out there ceases to influence us not only through its light but also through its Gravatation (because gravity also propagates at the speed of light). It just drops over an event horizon. These regions are beyond our ability to ever know anything about. They are called "Rindler Foliations".
Packing Universes In Spacetime
Cheers
The reason why the Universe is so large so fast is because everything is subject to "Universal Expansion" where every point of "stuff" is moving away from every other point of "stuff" (like points on the surface of an expanding balloon). This expansion is due to our Universe still expanding into "something" which may or may not be confined. This is a form of "frame dragging". Very soon (in terms of billions of years) "opposite sides of this expansion" will be moving away from the points on the opposite side faster than the local velocity of light. This occurs for the "bulk of the Universe" but not for any particular particle. This expansion is still infinitesimal in the volume of your room but something which "adds up" when you consider distances between galaxies.
This "frame dragging" is caused by falling freely in space, and apparently this process is accelerating as the Universe gets older. This means that the rate of expansion is still increasing. At some point light from some reaches in space "launched" in our direction will never reach us simply because the actual total distance between those distance places is expanding at a faster rate than light travels in trying to cross it. At that point in time "matter" out there ceases to influence us not only through its light but also through its Gravatation (because gravity also propagates at the speed of light). It just drops over an event horizon. These regions are beyond our ability to ever know anything about. They are called "Rindler Foliations".
Packing Universes In Spacetime
Cheers
QUOTE
what happened 13.7 BY ago simply because it take that much time for light to travel from then to get here.
I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!
Earth had to be made AFTER that light left......... so somehow according to physicist's logic, we got here FASTER..... like really much much faster than light can travel..... all mega-tera-tonnage of us..... and we even had time for a nice cuppa-tea before we looked down our telescope.
Inflation is not an answer...... madness is !
Thanks Good Elf for presenting "accepted logic",
I wonder which way one has to look to find the centre of the "Big Bang" ????
LOL.... human beings, y'all are bonkers.
But worse, when such propaganda is driven as truth into the minds of the young, science has become no better than politics..... nasty,... truth is the madness of the "peer reviewer". In this manner, Dr E had his bullshite accepted.
Earth you are in your last days, and you are too blinded to notice.
I C all the bottom crawling low life have found the silk purse and are trying to turn it into a sow's ear by shi-ting all over it!
How about either joining the conversation or take your crap to the nearest latrine over there ----->>
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
or take your crap to the nearest latrine over there ----->>
Look in a mirror.
Look in a mirror.
GoodElf good point but you say that in ' Very soon (in terms of billions of years) "opposite sides of this expansion" will be moving away from the points on the opposite side faster than the local velocity of light.'
Now I'm guessing that you don't mean that those boundaries will pass 'c'? only that the light remitted from it will take longer to reflect than the age of our universe.
Or?
Do we /will we have two singularities?
The big bang where everything expanded faster than 'c'
And now that boundary too?
that the outer 'shell' of the boundary may have any 'speed' it likes I can accept, but not the 'stuff' inside it, our universe..
Now I'm guessing that you don't mean that those boundaries will pass 'c'? only that the light remitted from it will take longer to reflect than the age of our universe.
Or?
Do we /will we have two singularities?
The big bang where everything expanded faster than 'c'
And now that boundary too?
that the outer 'shell' of the boundary may have any 'speed' it likes I can accept, but not the 'stuff' inside it, our universe..
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 09:37 PM)
I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!
Earth had to be made AFTER that light left......... so somehow according to physicist's logic, we got here FASTER..... like really much much faster than light can travel..... all mega-tera-tonnage of us..... and we even had time for a nice cuppa-tea before we looked down our telescope.
Because what the WMAP "sees" is the energy from the ionized hydrogen gas of the early universe, and the energy that WMAP measures wasn't released until that gas had cooled to 3000° K.
Arguments from incredulity, as you like to do, are rather tiresome.
Why don't you skip the pop-level stories and take the time to find out WHAT the spacecraft actually senses before claiming that it makes no sense?
Here's a primer.
http://background.uchicago.edu/%7ewhu/begi...troduction.html
Arthur
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 9 2008, 02:37 AM)
I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!
You must understand that distant receding objects like super-red shifted galaxies obey the time dilation affect, i.e we could observe a such a galaxy for 1000 years, however we'd only be witnessing a few actual seconds.
It is astoundingly apparent that you've absolutely no comprehension of even the most basic concepts in physics, which begs the question: why are you here?, when breathing must obviously present a formidable intellectual challenge to you.
You must understand that distant receding objects like super-red shifted galaxies obey the time dilation affect, i.e we could observe a such a galaxy for 1000 years, however we'd only be witnessing a few actual seconds.
It is astoundingly apparent that you've absolutely no comprehension of even the most basic concepts in physics, which begs the question: why are you here?, when breathing must obviously present a formidable intellectual challenge to you.
if you wish to evoke the highly unlikely and contrived expansion theory to explain the contradiction then you are relying on the red shift as evidence.
Unfortunately with the observed orbital velocity irregularities in fly by space probes, the red shift then needs to be reinterpreted.
Each spin field alters the direction of passing particles, each spin field exchanges energy and that would also apply to light
The Big Bang Theory has exploded, IMO
Unfortunately with the observed orbital velocity irregularities in fly by space probes, the red shift then needs to be reinterpreted.
Each spin field alters the direction of passing particles, each spin field exchanges energy and that would also apply to light
The Big Bang Theory has exploded, IMO
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 9 2008, 08:54 AM)
Unfortunately with the observed orbital velocity irregularities in fly by space probes
A common sense explanation would be velocity impedance via space dust - and not some magical fairy factor .... really.
A common sense explanation would be velocity impedance via space dust - and not some magical fairy factor .... really.
I was wondering how long it would take Zarkov to get hold of this.
Oi vey.
Oi vey.
QUOTE
I was wondering how long it would take Zarkov to get hold of this.
I predicted these changes in orbital characteristics from math calculations 5 years ago, and of course that attracted the vermin when I posted.
Nice to see that the structure of space is somewhat as ESGT describes and that explanations are really rational as opposed to the total crap that has been dished out over the last 100 odd years.
Nice to see unworthy concocted theories bite the dust.
No doubt y'all still read your fairy stories, and still believe in footsteps on the Moon.
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I predicted these changes in orbital characteristics from math calculations 5 years ago, and of course that attracted the vermin when I posted.
Of course you did
Yes, it was nice to see your theory bite the dust Zarkov. Very nice indeed
Of course you did
QUOTE
Nice to see unworthy concocted theories bite the dust.
Yes, it was nice to see your theory bite the dust Zarkov. Very nice indeed
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 10:48 PM)
http://www.physorg.com/news124169694.html
Just one question
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
There are some serious questions to ask
Why are physicists so illogical, why are they all high on fantasy ?
There is hardly any theories they sprout "today" that actually could be based upon or in fact.
This forum weeds out "pseudoscience" but its playpen is all made of pseudoscience.... no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.
never question !!! the truth is nowhere to be found.... LOL
Y'all are sooooooooooooooooooo strange
It is common sense Not to ask such a question.
The answer that you have in mind denies your existence, does it not ?
Just one question
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
There are some serious questions to ask
Why are physicists so illogical, why are they all high on fantasy ?
There is hardly any theories they sprout "today" that actually could be based upon or in fact.
This forum weeds out "pseudoscience" but its playpen is all made of pseudoscience.... no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.
never question !!! the truth is nowhere to be found.... LOL
Y'all are sooooooooooooooooooo strange
It is common sense Not to ask such a question.
The answer that you have in mind denies your existence, does it not ?
QUOTE
It is common sense Not to ask such a question.
It is a 'Big Bang or not' question..... The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| It is common sense Not to ask such a question. |
It is a 'Big Bang or not' question..... The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.
The answer that you have in mind denies your existence, does it not ?
Steady state allows me to have existed and to continue existing for an eternity. Which is correct.
Is the Universe expanding as fast as the ignorance of most of the posters here ?
The Universe IS NOT EXPANDING
Little bangs go on all the time, ......a local spin field expansion, then a collapse, only to then expand again..... it all is mediated by energy.
Why do human beings think they can formulate theory TRUTH when they hardly know any evidence, nor have they any real understanding of that which they think they already know.
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.
LOL
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.
Prove it.
Maybe in your closed, twisted little mind it isn't. In the real world, however, it is.
Maybe in your closed, twisted little mind it isn't. In the real world, however, it is.
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles
Oh we already know that - you're the proof of it!
Believe me, we are laughing out loud at you
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.
Well, your head obviously disappeared up your own orifice a long time ago.
Many well - known physicists believe in the big bang, and they are way smarter than a dumb*** like you.
Prove it.
QUOTE
The Universe IS NOT EXPANDING
Maybe in your closed, twisted little mind it isn't. In the real world, however, it is.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The Universe IS NOT EXPANDING |
Maybe in your closed, twisted little mind it isn't. In the real world, however, it is.
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles
Oh we already know that - you're the proof of it!
QUOTE
LOL
Believe me, we are laughing out loud at you
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 10 2008, 01:37 AM)
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.
Well, your head obviously disappeared up your own orifice a long time ago.
Many well - known physicists believe in the big bang, and they are way smarter than a dumb*** like you.
No answers here, y'all accept unbelievable and illogical explanations.
LOL, you guys will believe anything without further thought.... err, except the truth !
now that is a sign of a real idiot
LOL, you guys will believe anything without further thought.... err, except the truth !
now that is a sign of a real idiot
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 10:48 PM)
Just one question
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time
and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now
How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
Dr. Zarkov, the Big Bang states that space itself expanded faster than the speed of light, not the matter contained within it. This would allow you and the Earth to form in it's present location ahead of the CMB radiation that was generated 13.7 billion years ago.
QUOTE
Astronomical observations indicate that the universe is 13.73 ± 0.12 billion years old and at least 93 billion light years across. The event that started the universe is called the Big Bang. At this point in time all matter and energy of the observable universe was concentrated in one point of infinite density. After the Big Bang the universe started to expand to its present form. Since special relativity states that matter cannot exceed the speed of light in a fixed space-time, it may seem paradoxical that two galaxies can be separated by 93 billion light years in 13 billion years; however, this separation is a natural consequence of general relativity. Stated simply, space can expand with no intrinsic limit on its rate; thus, two galaxies can separate more quickly than the speed of light if the space between them grows. Experimental measurements such as the redshifts and spatial distribution of distant galaxies, the cosmic microwave background radiation, and the relative percentages of the lighter chemical elements, support this theoretical expansion and, more generally, the Big Bang theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe
Thanks for that one Capracus.
But it doesn't explain how the 'barrier' of our universe might expand faster than light, not if it's taking matter with it.
Or maybe that empty ?whatever? created in its wake are the birth place of 'forced' matter creation (think virtual) as nature abhors 'emptiness'?
But it doesn't explain how the 'barrier' of our universe might expand faster than light, not if it's taking matter with it.
Or maybe that empty ?whatever? created in its wake are the birth place of 'forced' matter creation (think virtual) as nature abhors 'emptiness'?
Hi yor_on,
Today is the Age of Universal Madness....
To be truly sane in an insane world, means that you are viewed as insane by those that are truly insane, LOL
you work it out
Now I want you to answer
Where are your list of predictions? .... or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin
LOL idiot!
Why do you discount truth given in good faith, when you offer nothing in return?
Answer...... no don't bother, I know the answer; you know no thing at all.
QUOTE (yor_on+)
GoodElf good point but you say that in ' Very soon (in terms of billions of years) "opposite sides of this expansion" will be moving away from the points on the opposite side faster than the local velocity of light.'
Now I'm guessing that you don't mean that those boundaries will pass 'c'? only that the light remitted from it will take longer to reflect than the age of our universe.
Or?
Do we /will we have two singularities?
The big bang where everything expanded faster than 'c'
And now that boundary too?
that the outer 'shell' of the boundary may have any 'speed' it likes I can accept, but not the 'stuff' inside it, our universe..
Now I'm guessing that you don't mean that those boundaries will pass 'c'? only that the light remitted from it will take longer to reflect than the age of our universe.
Or?
Do we /will we have two singularities?
The big bang where everything expanded faster than 'c'
And now that boundary too?
that the outer 'shell' of the boundary may have any 'speed' it likes I can accept, but not the 'stuff' inside it, our universe..
The Universe is expanding into either a closed dimensional space or an open dimensional space (we don't really know which). Best guess it is either a closed spacetime called a de Sitter Space or the inverse... an Anti-de Sitter Space. I am plugging on the "anti-de Sitter Space" since that puts us on an inside of a "balloon universe". IMHO the AdS/CFT Conjecture sums it up. This is a "reciprocal space" relative to what is on the "outside".. The Big Bang is not an "exploding shell" of matter such as you would get with an exploding ordinance in space that happened 13.74 Billion Years ago... Everything now is in a wholly uniform and universal process of constant expansion in which there can be no center and no rim or edge. There are some asymmetry for sure, that is another story.
Lets say you were a tiny beetle walking around the inside surface of a very large inflated balloon. The beetle walks and walks and never finds the edge or the center if it is confined to the inner surface. Our entire universe is "probably" like that balloon and the contents of our universe are confined to a "hyper-surface" for there is no "interior" or "edge" that can be reached by anything in our Universe. Still objects can get a maximum distance away from each other before they begin to return to where they originally started off from. We really do not know which kind of Universe we live in but the WIMAP data suggests that our universe is indeed closed and it has "internal connectivity" that matches a kind of Poincaré Dodecahedral Toroidal space with a wrapping similar to the computer game of "Asteroids" with a 1/6th "twist". This "connection" is on a truly "cosmic scale". Spacetime appears to be "multiply connected" (see fig 2 of the article linked below). It also means that all of space has this general symmetry in it even though the overall shape is "spherical". This means that in our Cosmic Asteroids Game our little spaceships and asteroids are confined to move around inside a smaller volume endlessly due to the way spacetime is wrapped on itself toroidally.
A cosmic hall of mirrors: PhysicsWorld
Other parts of this grand structure exist and reflect this expanding structure as defined by the Rindler Foliations I quoted in the on line article previously...
Packing Universes In Spacetime
... which is part of an online book called...
Reflections on Relativity
Of which this is one small chapter 7.5.
When Einstein said that everything is relative he actually meant it. Consider that our entire Universe is on the inside of a Black Hole then there are points on the "outside" of the black hole that, from our point of view, we can never reach. It really depends on the dynamics of "our" black hole that determines where an event horizon exists. Moving around in our space could move the event horizon around for us in the way that moving around on the surface of the earth moves the relative position of the horizon seen there. It is a "little more complicated" for our Universe though. Everything inside of our "black Universe" is expanding into something... like a bubble but we are like the surface of a bubble and everything in a surface of a bubble is moving away from everything else and the rate at which that movement is occurring depends on the distance between selected points. The further the points are away from each other the faster they are moving and conversely the shorter the distances the slower they are moving. This is roughly the picture you get if you select absolutely any pair of points anywhere in the Universe with a smaller influence due to this "connection". This is simply the Hubble Red Shift known of for quite a long time now. The process may also relate to "dark matter" and to the process known as "dark energy". There is just not enough information right now to make a full assessment. As an object emitting light towards us gets close to our apparent event horizon the light is Doppler Shifted more and more into the red band even though it is not accelerating in its frame of reference but falling freely. As I have previously stated no object can ever appear to move faster than 1/2 the speed of light away from us using only this single process so what happens when the particle moves over the event horizon is it will simply disappear from view as if it went over the hill. Not only is it not seen anymore it's gravity ceases to affect us anymore either.
It just so happens that there may be directions we may want to move in that this process leads to a requirement that particles must move into a Rindler Foliation (there is a diagram in that article above). If you go there the continued expansion of the Universe will "eventually" leave everything you left behind forever and you can never go back.
In the case of Black Holes... It is not certain that falling freely into a black hole will result in your annihilation. It is not certain that there are any singularities inside a black hole. It is no longer certain that an object falling into a black hole will hit the singularity for many billions of years. This is like what we see in our Universe and it's resident black holes. Perhaps whole galaxies can "fall" into a massive black hole and not experience any undue forces. It really depends on it actual size. It has been said that spagettification is what would happen to any traveler that falls into a black hole (being drawn apart into thin strands... As was the story's plot in Larry Niven's short story "Neutron Star"). This process is no longer certain either. Event horizons "exist" whenever two points are moving apart at greater than the speed of light such as "over the edge of a black hole" but the same phenomenon can occur in space as well due to relentless frame dragging and vast intervening spreading distances. It is not such a good story to tell people that they are all at the bottom of a "black bottomless pit" from which there can be no return... he he he.
Cheer up... things could be "worse" eh?
Cheers
Lets say you were a tiny beetle walking around the inside surface of a very large inflated balloon. The beetle walks and walks and never finds the edge or the center if it is confined to the inner surface. Our entire universe is "probably" like that balloon and the contents of our universe are confined to a "hyper-surface" for there is no "interior" or "edge" that can be reached by anything in our Universe. Still objects can get a maximum distance away from each other before they begin to return to where they originally started off from. We really do not know which kind of Universe we live in but the WIMAP data suggests that our universe is indeed closed and it has "internal connectivity" that matches a kind of Poincaré Dodecahedral Toroidal space with a wrapping similar to the computer game of "Asteroids" with a 1/6th "twist". This "connection" is on a truly "cosmic scale". Spacetime appears to be "multiply connected" (see fig 2 of the article linked below). It also means that all of space has this general symmetry in it even though the overall shape is "spherical". This means that in our Cosmic Asteroids Game our little spaceships and asteroids are confined to move around inside a smaller volume endlessly due to the way spacetime is wrapped on itself toroidally.
A cosmic hall of mirrors: PhysicsWorld
Other parts of this grand structure exist and reflect this expanding structure as defined by the Rindler Foliations I quoted in the on line article previously...
Packing Universes In Spacetime
... which is part of an online book called...
Reflections on Relativity
Of which this is one small chapter 7.5.
When Einstein said that everything is relative he actually meant it. Consider that our entire Universe is on the inside of a Black Hole then there are points on the "outside" of the black hole that, from our point of view, we can never reach. It really depends on the dynamics of "our" black hole that determines where an event horizon exists. Moving around in our space could move the event horizon around for us in the way that moving around on the surface of the earth moves the relative position of the horizon seen there. It is a "little more complicated" for our Universe though. Everything inside of our "black Universe" is expanding into something... like a bubble but we are like the surface of a bubble and everything in a surface of a bubble is moving away from everything else and the rate at which that movement is occurring depends on the distance between selected points. The further the points are away from each other the faster they are moving and conversely the shorter the distances the slower they are moving. This is roughly the picture you get if you select absolutely any pair of points anywhere in the Universe with a smaller influence due to this "connection". This is simply the Hubble Red Shift known of for quite a long time now. The process may also relate to "dark matter" and to the process known as "dark energy". There is just not enough information right now to make a full assessment. As an object emitting light towards us gets close to our apparent event horizon the light is Doppler Shifted more and more into the red band even though it is not accelerating in its frame of reference but falling freely. As I have previously stated no object can ever appear to move faster than 1/2 the speed of light away from us using only this single process so what happens when the particle moves over the event horizon is it will simply disappear from view as if it went over the hill. Not only is it not seen anymore it's gravity ceases to affect us anymore either.
It just so happens that there may be directions we may want to move in that this process leads to a requirement that particles must move into a Rindler Foliation (there is a diagram in that article above). If you go there the continued expansion of the Universe will "eventually" leave everything you left behind forever and you can never go back.
In the case of Black Holes... It is not certain that falling freely into a black hole will result in your annihilation. It is not certain that there are any singularities inside a black hole. It is no longer certain that an object falling into a black hole will hit the singularity for many billions of years. This is like what we see in our Universe and it's resident black holes. Perhaps whole galaxies can "fall" into a massive black hole and not experience any undue forces. It really depends on it actual size. It has been said that spagettification is what would happen to any traveler that falls into a black hole (being drawn apart into thin strands... As was the story's plot in Larry Niven's short story "Neutron Star"). This process is no longer certain either. Event horizons "exist" whenever two points are moving apart at greater than the speed of light such as "over the edge of a black hole" but the same phenomenon can occur in space as well due to relentless frame dragging and vast intervening spreading distances. It is not such a good story to tell people that they are all at the bottom of a "black bottomless pit" from which there can be no return... he he he.
Cheer up... things could be "worse" eh?
Cheers
Ok GoodElf.
Two questions.
1. Can you tell or link me to where you explain the concept of 1/2 'c'
2. that Idea of how black holes may treat incoming objects?
Does it originate from the theory that states that nothing will reach the 'core' of a black hole.
If so that's an idea, and a very strange one to me as it seems to make black holes almost impossible to create.
They may only be created at the 'big bang' or?
(It was some time since I saw that one first)
Two questions.
1. Can you tell or link me to where you explain the concept of 1/2 'c'
2. that Idea of how black holes may treat incoming objects?
Does it originate from the theory that states that nothing will reach the 'core' of a black hole.
If so that's an idea, and a very strange one to me as it seems to make black holes almost impossible to create.
They may only be created at the 'big bang' or?
(It was some time since I saw that one first)
Interesting, despite the hystrionics from both sides.
It leaves me with this question: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?
Thanks
It leaves me with this question: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?
Thanks
Interesting, despite the hystrionics.
I'm left with this question though: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?
Thanks
I'm left with this question though: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?
Thanks
QUOTE (JoelM+Mar 11 2008, 08:04 PM)
Interesting, despite the hystrionics.
I'm left with this question though: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?
Thanks
Yes and No.
I'm left with this question though: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?
Thanks
Yes and No.
The center of the big bang?
Well if we are expanding uniformly then turn it around.
You can count out all other motion as the expanding is done in every 'point'
after shrinking it to your satisfaction please post me your result :)
Well if we are expanding uniformly then turn it around.
You can count out all other motion as the expanding is done in every 'point'
after shrinking it to your satisfaction please post me your result :)
you guys ever heard of Occam's Razor ?
it says
basically anything could be true
BUT in science acceptance of the SIMPLEST (if at the same accuracy) explanation is the BEST explanation...
If you would only read what y'all are writing... more and more complex concepts/arguments, more and more contortions...... it is all getting so surreal that it is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE
BUT WORSE... there are simpler explanations, put forward over time, only now being verified, that explain the formulations/observations
The problem physics has is that physicists have accepted Dr E's explanations.... totally convoluted and fanciful
and of course any proposition drawn from this BS leads anyone to nightmares......
Occam's Razor likes ESGT and steady states and basically a normal everyday world..... one we all can understand and enjoy.
it says
basically anything could be true
BUT in science acceptance of the SIMPLEST (if at the same accuracy) explanation is the BEST explanation...
If you would only read what y'all are writing... more and more complex concepts/arguments, more and more contortions...... it is all getting so surreal that it is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE
BUT WORSE... there are simpler explanations, put forward over time, only now being verified, that explain the formulations/observations
The problem physics has is that physicists have accepted Dr E's explanations.... totally convoluted and fanciful
and of course any proposition drawn from this BS leads anyone to nightmares......
Occam's Razor likes ESGT and steady states and basically a normal everyday world..... one we all can understand and enjoy.
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
If you would only read what y'all are writing... more and more complex concepts/arguments, more and more contortions...... it is all getting so surreal that it is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE
Why, you've just described your own work!
Why, you've just described your own work!
OK lets play Think of a random reason
Your reasoning is that space expands many many, like unbelievably many magnitudes faster than... the speed of light
Expansion of space, but not its contents...----> leads to distance between objects, so we can be here like 13 Billion years before light gets here from "there".... even though 'we' in material spirit, were there when the light left..... oh my gosh, my fingers rebel at such suggestions.....
13 billion years at the speed of light =..... mmmh, not much bigger than my ***
anyway, is the above 'expansion concept' correct?
What happens to magnetic and electric fields in this process?
Are they "stretched" as well ? mmmh, to do all that WORK would take IMMENSE amounts of energy...... oh yes E=Mc^2 that will fix it...NOT
so what is the take on all this.... and tell me why y'all believe such drivel
I am researching the deterioration of the mental structures on this planet... and a curious planet it is, where individuals *** in their own nests.....
Y'all can help me in my thesis, just tell Zarkov about all your confusions
Your reasoning is that space expands many many, like unbelievably many magnitudes faster than... the speed of light
Expansion of space, but not its contents...----> leads to distance between objects, so we can be here like 13 Billion years before light gets here from "there".... even though 'we' in material spirit, were there when the light left..... oh my gosh, my fingers rebel at such suggestions.....
13 billion years at the speed of light =..... mmmh, not much bigger than my ***
anyway, is the above 'expansion concept' correct?
What happens to magnetic and electric fields in this process?
Are they "stretched" as well ? mmmh, to do all that WORK would take IMMENSE amounts of energy...... oh yes E=Mc^2 that will fix it...NOT
so what is the take on all this.... and tell me why y'all believe such drivel
I am researching the deterioration of the mental structures on this planet... and a curious planet it is, where individuals *** in their own nests.....
Y'all can help me in my thesis, just tell Zarkov about all your confusions
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I am researching the deterioration of the mental structures on this planet...
And you're using yourself as a test subject?
Okay. Why are you such a wacko loon?
And you're using yourself as a test subject?
QUOTE
Y'all can help me in my thesis, just tell Zarkov about all your confusions
Okay. Why are you such a wacko loon?
QUOTE
Why are you such a wacko loon?
Today is the Age of Universal Madness....
To be truly sane in an insane world, means that you are viewed as insane by those that are truly insane, LOL
you work it out
Now I want you to answer
Where are your list of predictions? .... or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin
LOL idiot!
Why do you discount truth given in good faith, when you offer nothing in return?
Answer...... no don't bother, I know the answer; you know no thing at all.
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
To be truly sane in an insane world, means that you are viewed as insane by those that are truly insane, LOL
Philosophical nonsense. All it proves is that you're more of a loon than we thought.
Nope, that'd be you.
Nope, that'd be you.
idiot!
You've just described yourself brilliantly
Oh the irony
Philosophical nonsense. All it proves is that you're more of a loon than we thought.
QUOTE
or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin
Nope, that'd be you.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin |
Nope, that'd be you.
idiot!
You've just described yourself brilliantly
QUOTE
you know no thing at all.
Oh the irony
Hi Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Username, JoelM, Trippy, Atrus, Capracus et al,
First I would like to remind everyone this is Zarkov's Thread and he is here to debate these points with us so we all need to take a deep breath and accept that there are going to be differences of opinion. What Zarkov thinks is madness is everyday physics in the 21st Century. I am not so sure that we can convince him that we are not "vermin"
so we may need to find out what it really is that he is objecting to. Let's just drop the name calling.
On another "easier" set of questions..
First I would like to remind everyone this is Zarkov's Thread and he is here to debate these points with us so we all need to take a deep breath and accept that there are going to be differences of opinion. What Zarkov thinks is madness is everyday physics in the 21st Century. I am not so sure that we can convince him that we are not "vermin"
On another "easier" set of questions..
QUOTE (yor_on+)
Ok GoodElf.
Two questions.
1. Can you tell or link me to where you explain the concept of 1/2 'c'
2. that Idea of how black holes may treat incoming objects?
Does it originate from the theory that states that nothing will reach the 'core' of a black hole.
If so that's an idea, and a very strange one to me as it seems to make black holes almost impossible to create.
They may only be created at the 'big bang' or?
(It was some time since I saw that one first)
Q1. Assume a vessel is moving at constant velocity away from an observer at almost exactly the speed of light (the maximum possible velocity) so close the difference can't be measured (to make this analysis obvious). Pay no attention to relativistic effects in the frame of the vessel these do not concern us as "observers". We determine distance from observer using only parallax. The speed of light is the same in all reference frames so position is defined in our observer frame of reference by "triggers" placed along the straight line path of the vessel away from the observers near the earth. We do know that since the velocity of the vessel is almost exactly the speed of light the vessel will actually pass one light second, two light seconds, 3, 4, 6, and 8 light seconds and so on after one, two, three, four, six, eight seconds in the observer frame of reference respectively. We arrange by a careful placement of these "triggers" to emit a flash of light from the vessel (or even from a nearby beacon at rest in our system) at almost exactly one light second distances as the vessel passes (perhaps by closing a contact or something). This is done automatically using these "trigger" as the vessel passes these waypoints placed along the way at one, two, three, four, six and eight light seconds (distance) from the "home observer" (and so on if needed). The delay in the propagation of light back to the "home observer" of the flash of light from the first four waypoints at these distances back to "base" is an additional one, two, three and four seconds. At those exact times the signal is received back at the home observer... the vessel will actually be physically at positions two, four, six and eight light seconds from the home observer (the time it takes light to travel back to the home observer from those respective distances). These are the "actual" distances the vessel will be at when the signals from the one, two, three and four light second flashes are received by the home observer.
Recession Speed Problem
You can see with this illustration how when a vessel is seen at various positions 1,2,3,4 light seconds distance away, the time it is seen there is delayed by the amount on the little arrow pointing back to the observer position. This is the time light takes to propagate back to base in seconds. When the observer sees the vessel after that delay in time the positions to the right are actually where the vessel actually is at that time. The slope of the lines represent velocity (distance/time) the left is the observed velocity and the right is the actual velocity (relative to observer position and times).
If you are "johnny on the spot" the velocity of the vessel is calculated by the position the vessel as seen to be in at the actual time of passing these positions relative to the observer frame clock. There would need to be an automatic recording being made using a synchronized clock at each of the positions one, two, three, four, six and eight. If we correlate these readings later we will obtain a velocity for the vessel as nearly the speed of light (that is what we have contrived the vessel to be traveling at). Using the "observed" velocity of recession and knowing the positions either by "color coding" the light flashes for distance or through the use of optical parallax the velocities "appear" to be only 1/2 that recorded by distant observations being correlated. The single observer on earth sees the vessel apparently traveling at only 1/2 the speed of light due to propagation delays due to the receding vessel. This case is the extremum... all other speeds will appear to be less than this in the absense of universal expansion or gravatational distortions.
I would like to point out that the actual physical differences between the speed of light and the speed of our vessel are of a small order in the frame of the observer. In the frame of the vessel the effects of Special Relativity are "extreme" to say the least. Luckily we can ignore that point from our anthropocentric perspective.
It is a simple idea but it is totally unappreciated.that there is a difference between recorded position and time data obtained on the spot fully corrected for propagation delay and single observer perspective data which is the only data we are currently able to obtain from space objects far off in space. To make "guesses" about what things are doing out there you need a "theory" of how the Universe works which includes both General Relativistic corrections and Special Relativistic effects and then to add into the mix what is happening to the "intervening volume of space" due to "universal expansion". This is all part of Cosmology... Not my specific field.
Q2. Quite a lot has been coming out about Black Holes lately. Black Holes can be any size from tiny ones that the SSC at CERN might produce to ones the size of many solar systems. The big ones would allow a planet to fall in without spagettification. One example of this idea is in this article...
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/fuzzball.htm
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0502050
You can read up on these ideas here...
Run out of time tonight ... must sleep.. got the flu.
Cheers
Two questions.
1. Can you tell or link me to where you explain the concept of 1/2 'c'
2. that Idea of how black holes may treat incoming objects?
Does it originate from the theory that states that nothing will reach the 'core' of a black hole.
If so that's an idea, and a very strange one to me as it seems to make black holes almost impossible to create.
They may only be created at the 'big bang' or?
(It was some time since I saw that one first)
Q1. Assume a vessel is moving at constant velocity away from an observer at almost exactly the speed of light (the maximum possible velocity) so close the difference can't be measured (to make this analysis obvious). Pay no attention to relativistic effects in the frame of the vessel these do not concern us as "observers". We determine distance from observer using only parallax. The speed of light is the same in all reference frames so position is defined in our observer frame of reference by "triggers" placed along the straight line path of the vessel away from the observers near the earth. We do know that since the velocity of the vessel is almost exactly the speed of light the vessel will actually pass one light second, two light seconds, 3, 4, 6, and 8 light seconds and so on after one, two, three, four, six, eight seconds in the observer frame of reference respectively. We arrange by a careful placement of these "triggers" to emit a flash of light from the vessel (or even from a nearby beacon at rest in our system) at almost exactly one light second distances as the vessel passes (perhaps by closing a contact or something). This is done automatically using these "trigger" as the vessel passes these waypoints placed along the way at one, two, three, four, six and eight light seconds (distance) from the "home observer" (and so on if needed). The delay in the propagation of light back to the "home observer" of the flash of light from the first four waypoints at these distances back to "base" is an additional one, two, three and four seconds. At those exact times the signal is received back at the home observer... the vessel will actually be physically at positions two, four, six and eight light seconds from the home observer (the time it takes light to travel back to the home observer from those respective distances). These are the "actual" distances the vessel will be at when the signals from the one, two, three and four light second flashes are received by the home observer.
Recession Speed Problem
You can see with this illustration how when a vessel is seen at various positions 1,2,3,4 light seconds distance away, the time it is seen there is delayed by the amount on the little arrow pointing back to the observer position. This is the time light takes to propagate back to base in seconds. When the observer sees the vessel after that delay in time the positions to the right are actually where the vessel actually is at that time. The slope of the lines represent velocity (distance/time) the left is the observed velocity and the right is the actual velocity (relative to observer position and times).
If you are "johnny on the spot" the velocity of the vessel is calculated by the position the vessel as seen to be in at the actual time of passing these positions relative to the observer frame clock. There would need to be an automatic recording being made using a synchronized clock at each of the positions one, two, three, four, six and eight. If we correlate these readings later we will obtain a velocity for the vessel as nearly the speed of light (that is what we have contrived the vessel to be traveling at). Using the "observed" velocity of recession and knowing the positions either by "color coding" the light flashes for distance or through the use of optical parallax the velocities "appear" to be only 1/2 that recorded by distant observations being correlated. The single observer on earth sees the vessel apparently traveling at only 1/2 the speed of light due to propagation delays due to the receding vessel. This case is the extremum... all other speeds will appear to be less than this in the absense of universal expansion or gravatational distortions.
I would like to point out that the actual physical differences between the speed of light and the speed of our vessel are of a small order in the frame of the observer. In the frame of the vessel the effects of Special Relativity are "extreme" to say the least. Luckily we can ignore that point from our anthropocentric perspective.
It is a simple idea but it is totally unappreciated.that there is a difference between recorded position and time data obtained on the spot fully corrected for propagation delay and single observer perspective data which is the only data we are currently able to obtain from space objects far off in space. To make "guesses" about what things are doing out there you need a "theory" of how the Universe works which includes both General Relativistic corrections and Special Relativistic effects and then to add into the mix what is happening to the "intervening volume of space" due to "universal expansion". This is all part of Cosmology... Not my specific field.
Q2. Quite a lot has been coming out about Black Holes lately. Black Holes can be any size from tiny ones that the SSC at CERN might produce to ones the size of many solar systems. The big ones would allow a planet to fall in without spagettification. One example of this idea is in this article...
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/fuzzball.htm
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0502050
You can read up on these ideas here...
Run out of time tonight ... must sleep.. got the flu.
Cheers
Thanks for thoughtful reply Good Elf
Thoughts on your thoughts.......
When cosmic theory has to be explained in anthropomorphic terms IMO it becomes "tainted" with our logic.
Logic is great fun, but modeling reality is really the name of the game.
Cosmic relations just are,... with or without an observer, and as such the only players on stage should be the actors of the cosmos portrayed by their various parameters (which we determine by actual measurement).
Dr E thought human observers were/are the focus of interest..... however such an approach has led cosmology astray, IMO.
You should note that Newton never fell into this trap.
Physics is a science that does not need human input, because it is a study of the "consequences of natural action".
Point 1
Cosmology/physics has become human mind-games, where the play is based entirely on "I think, therefore it is" supported by mathematical "approximations".... LOL
actual parameters are only incorporated later, usually with the help of an "operator" or two.
There is only one accurate form of mathematics, and that is algebra, arithmetic is a subset..... (and not many people understand arithmetic, LOL )
Point 2
Now for any set of data, there can be many interpretations or models..... and every model/interpretation is correct, if it satisfies all parameters.
From the history of science it becomes obvious that any model we put forward, will in time be modified, so in effect the science at any one time will never be "the truth".
Unfortunately net-posters believe in ONE model, and all the rest just don't exist.
Even though this preferred model is incorrect (by definition), investigation of alternatives is stymied by protectionism.
There is one thing human beings have observed and that is
When playing mind games, the model can be water- tight in your head, BUT in reality there is always a surprise in store... it always leaks
nothing ever is as your mind first/second/third.... conceived it.
Exploring models via words is yet another major limitation, and posters should be aware, that words seldom convey exactly the author's intent..... that is why "discussion" is embarked upon. Do try it
Tis nice to communicate rather than deploy shields.
Thoughts on your thoughts.......
When cosmic theory has to be explained in anthropomorphic terms IMO it becomes "tainted" with our logic.
Logic is great fun, but modeling reality is really the name of the game.
Cosmic relations just are,... with or without an observer, and as such the only players on stage should be the actors of the cosmos portrayed by their various parameters (which we determine by actual measurement).
Dr E thought human observers were/are the focus of interest..... however such an approach has led cosmology astray, IMO.
You should note that Newton never fell into this trap.
Physics is a science that does not need human input, because it is a study of the "consequences of natural action".
Point 1
Cosmology/physics has become human mind-games, where the play is based entirely on "I think, therefore it is" supported by mathematical "approximations".... LOL
actual parameters are only incorporated later, usually with the help of an "operator" or two.
There is only one accurate form of mathematics, and that is algebra, arithmetic is a subset..... (and not many people understand arithmetic, LOL )
Point 2
Now for any set of data, there can be many interpretations or models..... and every model/interpretation is correct, if it satisfies all parameters.
From the history of science it becomes obvious that any model we put forward, will in time be modified, so in effect the science at any one time will never be "the truth".
Unfortunately net-posters believe in ONE model, and all the rest just don't exist.
Even though this preferred model is incorrect (by definition), investigation of alternatives is stymied by protectionism.
There is one thing human beings have observed and that is
When playing mind games, the model can be water- tight in your head, BUT in reality there is always a surprise in store... it always leaks
nothing ever is as your mind first/second/third.... conceived it.
Exploring models via words is yet another major limitation, and posters should be aware, that words seldom convey exactly the author's intent..... that is why "discussion" is embarked upon. Do try it
Tis nice to communicate rather than deploy shields.
Hi
Ah GoodElf :)
Get well quickly, we're not finished here yet, ya'hear :)
You write " It is no longer certain that an object falling into a black hole will hit the singularity for many billions of years. This is like what we see in our Universe and it's resident black holes. Perhaps whole galaxies can "fall" into a massive black hole and not experience any undue forces "
That's what i was wondering about.
The string theory you linked to does not mention this at all as far I could find?
It only discussed 'information' and its highly theoretical possible retrieval from black holes.
As far as I'm concerned if something wanders over the event horizon it will go in to the 'core'. But then again I've been away a little while so maybe I'm wrong?
The first question I think I got though.
Thanks for your answer.
Over to Zarkov and out.
Ah GoodElf :)
Get well quickly, we're not finished here yet, ya'hear :)
You write " It is no longer certain that an object falling into a black hole will hit the singularity for many billions of years. This is like what we see in our Universe and it's resident black holes. Perhaps whole galaxies can "fall" into a massive black hole and not experience any undue forces "
That's what i was wondering about.
The string theory you linked to does not mention this at all as far I could find?
It only discussed 'information' and its highly theoretical possible retrieval from black holes.
As far as I'm concerned if something wanders over the event horizon it will go in to the 'core'. But then again I've been away a little while so maybe I'm wrong?
The first question I think I got though.
Thanks for your answer.
Over to Zarkov and out.
yes get well good Elf...
I am a classical cosmologist... I find Newton's work EXTREMELY intelligent
even NASA uses Newtonian formulations.
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.
SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force, black holes, white holes, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh
I find all the answers in ESGT, however this work is rather primitive and could be expanded quite considerably, especially in the field of anti-gravity.
Sir Walter Ritz, outlined a reasonable electrodynamic first-effort but fell well short of reality.
nice chatting
QUOTE
Over to Zarkov and out.
I am a classical cosmologist... I find Newton's work EXTREMELY intelligent
even NASA uses Newtonian formulations.
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.
SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force, black holes, white holes, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh
I find all the answers in ESGT, however this work is rather primitive and could be expanded quite considerably, especially in the field of anti-gravity.
Sir Walter Ritz, outlined a reasonable electrodynamic first-effort but fell well short of reality.
nice chatting
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 13 2008, 07:00 AM)
yes get well good Elf...
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.
SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force,WHITE HOLES, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh
I find all the answers in ESGT, however this work is rather primitive and could be expanded quite considerably, especially in the field of anti-gravity.
Sir Walter Ritz, outlined a reasonable electrodynamic first-effort but fell well short of reality.
nice chatting
[B]PINK holes not white holes. ZARKOFF as usual your being sarc-as-tic.
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.
SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force,WHITE HOLES, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh
I find all the answers in ESGT, however this work is rather primitive and could be expanded quite considerably, especially in the field of anti-gravity.
Sir Walter Ritz, outlined a reasonable electrodynamic first-effort but fell well short of reality.
nice chatting
[B]PINK holes not white holes. ZARKOFF as usual your being sarc-as-tic.
Hi Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Username, JoelM, Trippy, Atrus, Capracus et al,
Thanks for your good wishes ... I am getting better already.
Thanks for your good wishes ... I am getting better already.
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
Thoughts on your thoughts.......
When cosmic theory has to be explained in anthropomorphic terms IMO it becomes "tainted" with our logic.
Logic is great fun, but modeling reality is really the name of the game.
Cosmic relations just are,... with or without an observer, and as such the only players on stage should be the actors of the cosmos portrayed by their various parameters (which we determine by actual measurement).
Dr E thought human observers were/are the focus of interest..... however such an approach has led cosmology astray, IMO.
You should note that Newton never fell into this trap.
Physics is a science that does not need human input, because it is a study of the "consequences of natural action".
When cosmic theory has to be explained in anthropomorphic terms IMO it becomes "tainted" with our logic.
Logic is great fun, but modeling reality is really the name of the game.
Cosmic relations just are,... with or without an observer, and as such the only players on stage should be the actors of the cosmos portrayed by their various parameters (which we determine by actual measurement).
Dr E thought human observers were/are the focus of interest..... however such an approach has led cosmology astray, IMO.
You should note that Newton never fell into this trap.
Physics is a science that does not need human input, because it is a study of the "consequences of natural action".
You are right about everything that we have theories about is really an anthropocentric view of the Universe regardless of how much we try. This is "natural" since we are the ones trying to make some sense out of it. But I also agree that because of Kurt Gödel and his Incompleteness Theorems it is impossible to ever escape from our own mindsets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del...eteness_theorem
Every theory we make is based on assumptions derived from some pre-existing theory about existence and being. This means that we can never know "The Mind of G*d". Actually I think that when our Universe was "born" there really was no "Mind of G*d"... slowly sentience is evolving and if that sentience becomes truly evolved it can reinvent itself and know it's own beginnings. I would say the first "mind" to do this will probably not be "human".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del...eteness_theorem
Every theory we make is based on assumptions derived from some pre-existing theory about existence and being. This means that we can never know "The Mind of G*d". Actually I think that when our Universe was "born" there really was no "Mind of G*d"... slowly sentience is evolving and if that sentience becomes truly evolved it can reinvent itself and know it's own beginnings. I would say the first "mind" to do this will probably not be "human".
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
From the history of science it becomes obvious that any model we put forward, will in time be modified, so in effect the science at any one time will never be "the truth".
This is "good"... If we are always shining an experimental light on what we know is true (the Universe around us does not lie when we ask questions) we can certainly know what is false when it isn't disagreement with that "truth". It is necessary for man to always seek more. Gödel ensured that there will never be any rest for man... if he survives. If he does not survive then someone else will find the truth instead. The Universe has not put all her eggs in one basket... like mankind...
Still the worship of '"G*ds" is just another of those delusions mankind thinks he is so knowledgeable about. I would highly dispute we know anything about "g*ds" at all. The pursuit of "ultimate knowledge" is a pursuit for madness and we will only achieve such a goal through total insanity. I think that is why poor Kurt was mad too. I suggest many humans have found true success in that pursuit already... some of them even claim they are the g*ds themselves... For them society should provide the public services sector with very large butterfly nets and collect all the "specimens" loose on our streets. Many of them will be found in religious institutions already convinced they know "everything" necessary for you and are prepared to enforce it if you allow them the opportunity.
Scientists are also not 'immune" to madness, and aside from Kurt Gödel himself check out "A Beautiful Mind" at your video shop to tell the story of John Nash. A very brilliant mind indeed... but unfortunately crazy. Maybe true greatness requires the sacrifice of sanity. That "path" then, is for "others" to tread.
A careful examination of most of these and many other sane and insane individuals is an underlying hubris which is endemic to our species. I guess the only difference is the degree of madness expressed tailored by the degree of hubris. Still... everyone "needs" a little pride otehrwise you will never achieve anything... a passion. Our society is replete with Scientific, Religious, Political and Military Berserkers... Do not be "one of them"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
Many scientists went mad in their quest for knowledge. Even Newton was consumed more in his search for Alchemical Truth than he was with his pursuit for Scientific Truth (and I entirely agree that his was the finest mind our species has ever produced). Along with Principia were his secret writings on Alchemistry and Hermetical Tomes and his personal quest for the Philosopher's Stone, obviously "less published" today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophiae_...pia_Mathematica
We "could" take the view that we are some kind of "dispassionate independent witness" to what is happening around us "OR" we can accept our destiny as humans trapped in time and space searching for some kind of "meaning"? My view is that many scientists think they are above humanity and are seeing the Universe independently of our senses. I totally disagree. The interpretation of science as I see it in in the hands of man himself. If it is abstract and steeped in gobbledygook then you can understand where that is coming from... a sense of self importance and a lack of concern for the interpretation. We are a product of the environment we live in and we cannot escape from that. What I do think about this quandary is while we are products of our Universe we are the "special bit" of it that has evolved in an attempt to make some sense about it all. We are the "gestalt" of the Universe and it's quest to know itself for we are part of that Universe, part of the created "star stuff". The very atoms in our body are "entangled" with the hearts of the long dead stars that were scattered across the heavens from which they came ... billions of years ago. It is our "job"... If not us then who? This is the real "Grail" for mankind.
Whom Does the Grail Serve? It serves the one who serves.
Cheers
This is "good"... If we are always shining an experimental light on what we know is true (the Universe around us does not lie when we ask questions) we can certainly know what is false when it isn't disagreement with that "truth". It is necessary for man to always seek more. Gödel ensured that there will never be any rest for man... if he survives. If he does not survive then someone else will find the truth instead. The Universe has not put all her eggs in one basket... like mankind...
Still the worship of '"G*ds" is just another of those delusions mankind thinks he is so knowledgeable about. I would highly dispute we know anything about "g*ds" at all. The pursuit of "ultimate knowledge" is a pursuit for madness and we will only achieve such a goal through total insanity. I think that is why poor Kurt was mad too. I suggest many humans have found true success in that pursuit already... some of them even claim they are the g*ds themselves... For them society should provide the public services sector with very large butterfly nets and collect all the "specimens" loose on our streets. Many of them will be found in religious institutions already convinced they know "everything" necessary for you and are prepared to enforce it if you allow them the opportunity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
Many scientists went mad in their quest for knowledge. Even Newton was consumed more in his search for Alchemical Truth than he was with his pursuit for Scientific Truth (and I entirely agree that his was the finest mind our species has ever produced). Along with Principia were his secret writings on Alchemistry and Hermetical Tomes and his personal quest for the Philosopher's Stone, obviously "less published" today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophiae_...pia_Mathematica
We "could" take the view that we are some kind of "dispassionate independent witness" to what is happening around us "OR" we can accept our destiny as humans trapped in time and space searching for some kind of "meaning"? My view is that many scientists think they are above humanity and are seeing the Universe independently of our senses. I totally disagree. The interpretation of science as I see it in in the hands of man himself. If it is abstract and steeped in gobbledygook then you can understand where that is coming from... a sense of self importance and a lack of concern for the interpretation. We are a product of the environment we live in and we cannot escape from that. What I do think about this quandary is while we are products of our Universe we are the "special bit" of it that has evolved in an attempt to make some sense about it all. We are the "gestalt" of the Universe and it's quest to know itself for we are part of that Universe, part of the created "star stuff". The very atoms in our body are "entangled" with the hearts of the long dead stars that were scattered across the heavens from which they came ... billions of years ago. It is our "job"... If not us then who? This is the real "Grail" for mankind.
Whom Does the Grail Serve? It serves the one who serves.
Cheers
Again Good Elf, you astound me with your insights and knowledge.
It is a madness to even have an interest in things philosophical or scientific
most people prefer being entertained
I have researched madness to some depth, and I expect you are referring to the second kind.
The first kind is behaviour displayed through neurological damage, usually brought on by the effects of accumulated toxic substances.
The second kind of madness is passion, unbridled passion for intellectual pursuits, and yes then the fine line gets finer.... LOL
HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.
Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.
Eddington (a manipulative fraud)
"" “Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.”"
LOL, with these words cosmology fell apart IMO
It is a madness to even have an interest in things philosophical or scientific
most people prefer being entertained
I have researched madness to some depth, and I expect you are referring to the second kind.
The first kind is behaviour displayed through neurological damage, usually brought on by the effects of accumulated toxic substances.
The second kind of madness is passion, unbridled passion for intellectual pursuits, and yes then the fine line gets finer.... LOL
HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.
Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.
Eddington (a manipulative fraud)
"" “Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.”"
LOL, with these words cosmology fell apart IMO
The interpretation of science as I see it is in the hands of man himself. If it is abstract and steeped in gobbledygook then you can understand where that is coming from... a sense of self importance and a lack of concern for the interpretation.
I have tried to address this aspect in Scientific Skepticism
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20468
It seems many community members are
unaware that a theory is just an explanation, a word picture of observed facts, and of course there can be many interpretations.
To argue a point is fine in science but to demand rigid adherence is typically lay
Unfortunately lay slander and off topic posts destroy a communication, just as it destroys a reader's enjoyment by totally shredding meaning.
I seem to have attracted a lot of lay "wanna-bees", LOL
yes, however a realisation that I have come to, is that we can step outside the human centric view. Even though we use human concepts in analysis, eg time, "mass", measurement, angle, geometry etc
these tools can be used to arrive at "values" where all pretense to know quantitatively can be dropped and the "values generated through human processing" then become arbitrary unit-less indicators of greater unknowns.
Ultimately the final analysis should yield parameters that are free of human conceived units, IMO
nice chatting
algebra does not lie.
In an insane world to be really sane dooms you to be treated as insane by all others.
Tis a shame you can not discuss your problems about my science..... real science does rise way above "any analysis by human beings"
LOL
QUOTE
The pursuit of "ultimate knowledge" is a pursuit for madness and we will only achieve such a goal through total insanity.
It is a madness to even have an interest in things philosophical or scientific
most people prefer being entertained
I have researched madness to some depth, and I expect you are referring to the second kind.
The first kind is behaviour displayed through neurological damage, usually brought on by the effects of accumulated toxic substances.
The second kind of madness is passion, unbridled passion for intellectual pursuits, and yes then the fine line gets finer.... LOL
HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.
Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.
Eddington (a manipulative fraud)
"" “Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.”"
LOL, with these words cosmology fell apart IMO
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The pursuit of "ultimate knowledge" is a pursuit for madness and we will only achieve such a goal through total insanity. |
It is a madness to even have an interest in things philosophical or scientific
most people prefer being entertained
I have researched madness to some depth, and I expect you are referring to the second kind.
The first kind is behaviour displayed through neurological damage, usually brought on by the effects of accumulated toxic substances.
The second kind of madness is passion, unbridled passion for intellectual pursuits, and yes then the fine line gets finer.... LOL
HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.
Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.
Eddington (a manipulative fraud)
"" “Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.”"
LOL, with these words cosmology fell apart IMO
The interpretation of science as I see it is in the hands of man himself. If it is abstract and steeped in gobbledygook then you can understand where that is coming from... a sense of self importance and a lack of concern for the interpretation.
I have tried to address this aspect in Scientific Skepticism
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20468
It seems many community members are
unaware that a theory is just an explanation, a word picture of observed facts, and of course there can be many interpretations.
To argue a point is fine in science but to demand rigid adherence is typically lay
Unfortunately lay slander and off topic posts destroy a communication, just as it destroys a reader's enjoyment by totally shredding meaning.
I seem to have attracted a lot of lay "wanna-bees", LOL
QUOTE
everything that we have theories about is really an anthropocentric view of the Universe regardless of how much we try.
yes, however a realisation that I have come to, is that we can step outside the human centric view. Even though we use human concepts in analysis, eg time, "mass", measurement, angle, geometry etc
these tools can be used to arrive at "values" where all pretense to know quantitatively can be dropped and the "values generated through human processing" then become arbitrary unit-less indicators of greater unknowns.
Ultimately the final analysis should yield parameters that are free of human conceived units, IMO
nice chatting
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I seem to have attracted a lot of lay "wanna-bees", LOL
And who are these wannabe's? Because I highly doubt anyone would want to be a complete wacko nutter like you.
And who are these wannabe's? Because I highly doubt anyone would want to be a complete wacko nutter like you.
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 14 2008, 04:35 AM)
HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.
Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.
You can't claim you are right simply by claiming the others are wrong.
They might be, but that still doesn't make you right and so far you have yet to show anything anywhere near a theory, let alone a proof of that theory.
Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.
I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.
Arthur
Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.
You can't claim you are right simply by claiming the others are wrong.
They might be, but that still doesn't make you right and so far you have yet to show anything anywhere near a theory, let alone a proof of that theory.
Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.
I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 16 2008, 02:25 AM)
You can't claim you are right simply by claiming the others are wrong.
They might be, but that still doesn't make you right and so far you have yet to show anything anywhere near a theory, let alone a proof of that theory.
Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.
I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.
Arthur
Well he is Dr. Hans Zarkov.
(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).
They might be, but that still doesn't make you right and so far you have yet to show anything anywhere near a theory, let alone a proof of that theory.
Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.
I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.
Arthur
Well he is Dr. Hans Zarkov.
(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).
QUOTE (Trippy+Mar 15 2008, 04:04 PM)
Well he is Dr. Hans Zarkov.
(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).
Hah! I had to Google it. Apparently, I am not old enough, either. That's nice, in its own little way...
(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).
Hah! I had to Google it. Apparently, I am not old enough, either. That's nice, in its own little way...
QUOTE
I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.
algebra does not lie.
In an insane world to be really sane dooms you to be treated as insane by all others.
Tis a shame you can not discuss your problems about my science..... real science does rise way above "any analysis by human beings"
LOL
QUOTE (Trippy+Mar 15 2008, 04:04 PM)
Well he is Dr. Hans Zarkov.
(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).
(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 15 2008, 05:08 PM)
Tis a shame you can not discuss your problems about my science
Oh horse pucky.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=314629
You're "science" amounts to a pile of nothing.
You have posted nothing to support any of your grand statements
And most of your posts are pointless rants about how we are "all gonna die" because of a friggin film of oil on the oceans, or your frequent lament about how you are right and the rest of the world is insane
All without a shred of proof.
And when PRESSED for proof, what do you do?
You run away and hide on another thread.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=320374
Shoo, you are just a fraud whose only apparent purpose is to get people to read your site.
Ain't gonna happen 'cause you got no bait on your hook.
Arthur
Oh horse pucky.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=314629
You're "science" amounts to a pile of nothing.
You have posted nothing to support any of your grand statements
And most of your posts are pointless rants about how we are "all gonna die" because of a friggin film of oil on the oceans, or your frequent lament about how you are right and the rest of the world is insane
All without a shred of proof.
And when PRESSED for proof, what do you do?
You run away and hide on another thread.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=320374
Shoo, you are just a fraud whose only apparent purpose is to get people to read your site.
Ain't gonna happen 'cause you got no bait on your hook.
Arthur
But his name doesn't anagram in English. That might be good for something?
Thread trashed by vermin.
Hi adoucette, Zarkov, yor_on, Trippy, The Doc, Sapo Username, JoelM, Atrus, Capracus et al,
This is not a personal criticism but the arguments of this forum often pivot around personalities. I would remind everyone that our ego's are often a real problem in trying to understand other points of view. Other points of view do matter and scientific debate could not last without it. I speak on my behalf (in self interest) as well as on behalf of others with similar interests in this matter. You don't need to be "altruistic"... but it can help raise the tone of discussion. The idea of a "trickle down information source" is a similar one to "trickle down economies" where the ones on top "urinate" on those below with much laughter... well it is not amusing to me and it is bad science.
This is not a personal criticism but the arguments of this forum often pivot around personalities. I would remind everyone that our ego's are often a real problem in trying to understand other points of view. Other points of view do matter and scientific debate could not last without it. I speak on my behalf (in self interest) as well as on behalf of others with similar interests in this matter. You don't need to be "altruistic"... but it can help raise the tone of discussion. The idea of a "trickle down information source" is a similar one to "trickle down economies" where the ones on top "urinate" on those below with much laughter... well it is not amusing to me and it is bad science.
QUOTE (adoucette+)
Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.
The "embracing of Newton and shunning of Einstein" is not "madness", it may be unorthodox but it should not be used as a stick to beat people with intellectually. There are few individuals in all of human history that can claim a track record of such breadth and depth as Newton. Compare yourself and anyone else in history and then with him and you will find all the others do not even come close to the enormous leap in understanding he brought to mankind. He alone is responsible for the modern version of Dynamics, the motion of bodies, harmonic motion, Optics, Calculus, Gravitation, the first accounts of the principle of momentum and angular momentum, the Binomial Theorem, Newtons Methods of Approximation, the examination of spectra and the discreteness of the frequencies of light (many of these ideas were so revolutionary in their time Newton did not even provide names for them... such was the primitive state of Science). He invented the reflecting (Newtonian) Telescope the principle for which all large modern optical instruments of any significance utilize. The works of Pincipia and Optiks alone make him the acknowledged most influential Scientist and Mathematician in human history. As role models and as sources of inspiration you can choose none better. I would also say that we have not abandoned Newton we have built on him and the way he saw the Universe. He "invented" the language of science when there were no others of equal statue to take the lead. There may also be a darker side to this "light" and I think Newton in some of his lesser moments plumbed some of those "recesses" of the mind. But we should not judge the "ocean" by a single wave.
QUOTE (Wikipedia: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica+)
However, the concept of an attractive force acting at a distance received a cooler response. In his notes, Newton wrote that the inverse square law arose naturally due to the structure of matter. However, he retracted this sentence in the published version, where he stated that the motion of planets is consistent with an inverse square law, but refused to speculate on the origin of the law. Huygens and Leibniz noted that the law was incompatible with the notion of the aether. From a Cartesian point of view, therefore, this was a faulty theory. Newton's defence has been adopted since by many famous physicists — he pointed out that the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data, and he refused to speculate further on the basic nature of gravity. The sheer number of phenomena that could be organized by the theory was so impressive that younger "philosophers" soon adopted the methods and language of the Principia.
Here we see that Newton led by his powerful intellect refused to accept that the Aether was a primary concern... at least publicly... what was of concern to him was the incorporation of the known experimental data rather than rote acceptance of a scientific tradition which had a deference to an existing philosophy of Aristotle. The problem "of what Gravity is" remains a question to this very day and I can confidently say that humans have not arrived at a full comprehension for it's resolution yet. This problem of the origin of gravity still worried Newton... as it should have... It still worries us to this very day. I have my theories and so do many others on this forum, what I am convinced of is the status quo is not a convincing answer to this problem. People who defend the status quo take an easy course of action and this leads to a "mob mentality" demonstrated on this Forum at times. There is nothing to be gained from it.
I tend to Einstein's view more than any other single view but it is not enough. I have a great deal of respect for his Special Theory of Relativity but I think the General Theory of Relativity is not as compelling. As Einstein searched for a Unified Field Theory in his later years we should all be searching for the same resolution based on the existing current experimental data. Not a mindless following of his technique but clearly his methods were IMHO the best of their kind and capable of possible success. Because nobody believed him in his life's work at the scientific level and because of his public status as a celebrity he was thwarted. I note this is not the consensus opinion of much of the Scientific Community today where Loop Quantum Gravity, various Quantum Gravity and String Theory schemes all fail miserably in a basic test of answering the right experimental questions. Sloppy "questions" and poor intellectual analysis leads to chaos in interpretation of science and what we have today is an elite led "magic act" with Mathematicians in the guise of Physicists as professionally paid "Sorcerers". Many of them are mostly in direct disagreement with current experimental science, yet these mathematical theoreticians spend many non-productive years persisting with such hubris and at the same time poking fun and ridiculing others with dissimilar notions.
This could well be a useful instruction to men and women of science today. Too many "lesser minds" have driven the debate "every which way but loose" and they have all forgotten that a consensus is not necessarily required for scientific Truth if that "consensus" is in opposition to the experimental facts. Science decided by committee is not science but politics. Everyone knows committees either in government, scientific forums or in your local church halls never pick "what is right" but always decide on the lowest common denominator which represents the collective ego's of all the "feeble minds" drawn there that pick on the most mutually politically advantageous and economically prosperous outcome. Science is of secondary concern. In science this is the "shut up and calculate" method of silencing all the naysayers... the tall poppy syndrome. The reasons provided by these individuals in their ivory towers is that only they and their committees have any access to truth and all other "voices" should be relegated to to the role of simple "calculators". I remind everyone of Newton's "humble beginnings"... Well the word is out... calculators are a couple of bucks each available from a corner store... What is now the purpose of all these Physicists? The Internet is replete with "calculators" for almost any problem you can think of. How did so few physicists become such great authorities in a debate which is not yet decided publicly? Why is Mathematics placed in such high esteem if the physics is almost ignored? Do all these new age mathematicians all graduate with Philosophy or Theology Degrees? It appears clear to me that religion and politics have had controlling input into this debate to the extent that men's minds are clouded by their own hubris and it is no longer Newton alone that is being driven mad but the entire human race. What do people want... a relative uneasy truth or an outright lie? It appears "the lie" is what is required and ridicule is the way to maintain it. Yet I hold that only logic and science tempered by the results of careful experiment can solve this impasse through addressing the physical Universe directly. This means that "Physicists" need to wire a few things up in the Lab to see that the Universe actually works and it is not a "construct" of their over fertilized minds. The secrets that the Universe still holds will only yield by asking the most deeply penetrating questions "at a workbench". Theories that hide their origins below the Planck Length are "Religions" and not the result of an "Experimental Science".
The basis of Principia's exposition is not as well founded as is with Einstein's Theories today. To me Special Relativity at least is as simple if not simpler than any other "modern" theory that can be taught. But I see a terrible "stuff up" in the teaching profession and with academia in trying to pass these ideas on to students. I am convinced they are not so much interested in the understanding being "transferred" but in the "due process" and "formality" showing how cleverly the ideas can be put in an inscrutable way to the unwashed. Publishing these results is also "covert" in the way that the Journals do not openly make their information available to all. The scientists secretly agree to keep all this "in house" because more people may actually see what rubbish is being passed off as scholarly research. The public will finally realize that this "stuff" is simply churned out and put on a scales to evaluate the output of a lifetime. As far as I am concerned one paper such as Einstein's Special Theory or Newton's Principia is enough to credit a useful life. IMHO quantity does not displace quality. I would remind all that Einstein's Revolutionary Paper on Special Relativity was not a scholarly work in Mathematics. In fact he did not "discover" anything of any mathematical consequence at all. His paper was about "Physics".
Newton did not have any significant data to work with that could be relied on. This is not his fault. For instance he assumed the speed of light was 210 thousand K/s and using the measurements available in the middle of the 17th Century it could well have been since many science authorities still felt that the speed of light may be infinite. A lot of other data were in error but just such margins. I am pretty sure that given the additional data from experiment available to everyone today, better computing instruments, and given good health and the lack of distraction of concerns of an alchemical nature, he would certainly have arrived at most of the Physics we hold as true and significantly improved on it. Not only that he was of exceedingly humble origins... his parents were feudal farmers whose duty was to fight for the king... A little above a serf. When he said things in Science people listened and they did that only because he was usually right. Among all things Newton was a great believer in experimental physics... He could not claim the King's authority, he was of humble birth. This is where modern theorists fail by thinking "far too small and conservatively" with an eye to their stipends, tenure and position in the "pecking order". In that respect I agree with Zarkov while disagreeing with his evaluation of the works of Einstein (whom I hold in the very highest regard). This is not to say that Einstein was right in everything but I think Einstein was right in many things we no longer give him any credit for. In the same way Newton was also such a person... a man of his times.
Newton was also the first to espouse and publish a concept which every scientist should now aspire... "I feign no hypotheses" which is a departure from the Aristotelian concept of natural philosophy. This is not what modern science is about any more. What Newton was trying to say is make sure your theory is experimentally correct before worrying about how it fits with the classicists and other previous authorities. We have Occam's Razor which states that among an equally provable theories the simplest theory is usually the correct one. Unfortunately the human mind is not capable of knowing "all" possible equally acceptable and provable theories and because of hubris will not accept that other theories are of equal standing can only comprehend the simplest one that they know as being the best.
This concept was put recently by Micheu Kaku regarding Einstein's General Theory of Relativity being made into a "slogan" and placed on the front of T-shirts because of it's "intrinsic beauty". My view is this is a pretty stupid idea because there is no reason to accept that this theory in it's "simple" form has the ability to solve any realistic problems at all. It is of greater Mathematical Interest as an icon than it is of Scientific Interest simply because it is only "beautiful". I disagree... what is "beautiful" must be in the eye of the beholder and what the Universe "does" is beautiful and simpler than any Tensor Field theory equation "emblazoned" on the front of an "unthinking" mathematician's chest. You may as well throw in a couple of verses from the bible as well ... only the short quotes qualify... sound bytes. I can think of some Communist and Commercial advertising slogans which are more popular why not put them there too as many do. Better still... tattoo them on your forehead.
It is not that Newton was "wrong" in anything he had said but according to the limited science of the time he was "dead on target". Yet most of the society of his time did not take his hubris too well. They criticized him for his lack of diligence and deference to authorities that had come before. The relationship between Halley and Newton is a model of scientific behavior but the relationship between Hooke and Newton show also to what depths of hatred and spite great minds can fall into to. Another "bad report" of Newton regards Leibniz and his comparable but separate discovery of Calculus, Newton did not attempt to see and recognize the works of others and this may be due in part to Newton's reported Autism and lack of people skills or perhaps in later life his growing religious fervor and "madness". It is well to understand that that it is important to give due recognition of all those who have assisted and helped in all respects or have strived alone... Otherwise hubris can overcome the solitary mind and lead into madness and error. Everyone understands that Newton's Laws have some shortcomings but they are able to be remedied. All subsequent developments including Einstein's Theories and Quantum Mechanics are based on the insight that Newton provided to many previous generations of scientists and have been refined "marginally" since his day. Einstein is a true Genius and my favorite among all scientists but Newton was the greatest because his insights took us from the "Stone Age" of "tinkering" with science and experiments to a world of "Order" in which a way could be seen forward. As a person he was "aloof", distant and dismissive... not a nice person... but who really cares. We need to look past those limitations. His was the "stepping stone" of history that launched the "Enlightenment" that gave rise to the very minds that eventually signed the Declaration of Independence and in which the rights of all men were made sovereign (not just in America) and consequently led to the questioning of the enslavement others (everywhere). It had nothing much at all to do with the churches or good government, in fact it was a breakdown in government and church authority that precipitated it. Newton's legacy cannot be underestimated or delimited and it exceeded two thousand years and more of religious and political fervor and persecution supplanting them with free minds and opportunity that still echoes to this day... But one single stupid generation can take that all away. Newton probably never thought for a moment what he had started and relentlessly initiated .... he lit the fuse that would destroy the past and prepare us for a new tomorrow. Not bad for a crazy person.
As Zarkov has stated Newtons Laws (with some minor adjustments) are still used to steer the course to the planets and land men on the moon (I have not read about Zarkov's input into that debate... obviously I do not want to enter into that discussion.. It is a 'done deal" and a great achievement). What matters now is the future... nothing lasts forever as history has shown... and any accolade of the past will become jeering and stoning as the once feted end up on the guillotine. Science is not a series of equal steps towards goals... like Evolution... the steps occasionally are huge and unprecedented towards some new and unknown frontier. That was Newton and it is foolish to not see what what mighty deeds he has wrought... even if he did not see them himself.
Cheers
I tend to Einstein's view more than any other single view but it is not enough. I have a great deal of respect for his Special Theory of Relativity but I think the General Theory of Relativity is not as compelling. As Einstein searched for a Unified Field Theory in his later years we should all be searching for the same resolution based on the existing current experimental data. Not a mindless following of his technique but clearly his methods were IMHO the best of their kind and capable of possible success. Because nobody believed him in his life's work at the scientific level and because of his public status as a celebrity he was thwarted. I note this is not the consensus opinion of much of the Scientific Community today where Loop Quantum Gravity, various Quantum Gravity and String Theory schemes all fail miserably in a basic test of answering the right experimental questions. Sloppy "questions" and poor intellectual analysis leads to chaos in interpretation of science and what we have today is an elite led "magic act" with Mathematicians in the guise of Physicists as professionally paid "Sorcerers". Many of them are mostly in direct disagreement with current experimental science, yet these mathematical theoreticians spend many non-productive years persisting with such hubris and at the same time poking fun and ridiculing others with dissimilar notions.
This could well be a useful instruction to men and women of science today. Too many "lesser minds" have driven the debate "every which way but loose" and they have all forgotten that a consensus is not necessarily required for scientific Truth if that "consensus" is in opposition to the experimental facts. Science decided by committee is not science but politics. Everyone knows committees either in government, scientific forums or in your local church halls never pick "what is right" but always decide on the lowest common denominator which represents the collective ego's of all the "feeble minds" drawn there that pick on the most mutually politically advantageous and economically prosperous outcome. Science is of secondary concern. In science this is the "shut up and calculate" method of silencing all the naysayers... the tall poppy syndrome. The reasons provided by these individuals in their ivory towers is that only they and their committees have any access to truth and all other "voices" should be relegated to to the role of simple "calculators". I remind everyone of Newton's "humble beginnings"... Well the word is out... calculators are a couple of bucks each available from a corner store... What is now the purpose of all these Physicists? The Internet is replete with "calculators" for almost any problem you can think of. How did so few physicists become such great authorities in a debate which is not yet decided publicly? Why is Mathematics placed in such high esteem if the physics is almost ignored? Do all these new age mathematicians all graduate with Philosophy or Theology Degrees? It appears clear to me that religion and politics have had controlling input into this debate to the extent that men's minds are clouded by their own hubris and it is no longer Newton alone that is being driven mad but the entire human race. What do people want... a relative uneasy truth or an outright lie? It appears "the lie" is what is required and ridicule is the way to maintain it. Yet I hold that only logic and science tempered by the results of careful experiment can solve this impasse through addressing the physical Universe directly. This means that "Physicists" need to wire a few things up in the Lab to see that the Universe actually works and it is not a "construct" of their over fertilized minds. The secrets that the Universe still holds will only yield by asking the most deeply penetrating questions "at a workbench". Theories that hide their origins below the Planck Length are "Religions" and not the result of an "Experimental Science".
The basis of Principia's exposition is not as well founded as is with Einstein's Theories today. To me Special Relativity at least is as simple if not simpler than any other "modern" theory that can be taught. But I see a terrible "stuff up" in the teaching profession and with academia in trying to pass these ideas on to students. I am convinced they are not so much interested in the understanding being "transferred" but in the "due process" and "formality" showing how cleverly the ideas can be put in an inscrutable way to the unwashed. Publishing these results is also "covert" in the way that the Journals do not openly make their information available to all. The scientists secretly agree to keep all this "in house" because more people may actually see what rubbish is being passed off as scholarly research. The public will finally realize that this "stuff" is simply churned out and put on a scales to evaluate the output of a lifetime. As far as I am concerned one paper such as Einstein's Special Theory or Newton's Principia is enough to credit a useful life. IMHO quantity does not displace quality. I would remind all that Einstein's Revolutionary Paper on Special Relativity was not a scholarly work in Mathematics. In fact he did not "discover" anything of any mathematical consequence at all. His paper was about "Physics".
Newton did not have any significant data to work with that could be relied on. This is not his fault. For instance he assumed the speed of light was 210 thousand K/s and using the measurements available in the middle of the 17th Century it could well have been since many science authorities still felt that the speed of light may be infinite. A lot of other data were in error but just such margins. I am pretty sure that given the additional data from experiment available to everyone today, better computing instruments, and given good health and the lack of distraction of concerns of an alchemical nature, he would certainly have arrived at most of the Physics we hold as true and significantly improved on it. Not only that he was of exceedingly humble origins... his parents were feudal farmers whose duty was to fight for the king... A little above a serf. When he said things in Science people listened and they did that only because he was usually right. Among all things Newton was a great believer in experimental physics... He could not claim the King's authority, he was of humble birth. This is where modern theorists fail by thinking "far too small and conservatively" with an eye to their stipends, tenure and position in the "pecking order". In that respect I agree with Zarkov while disagreeing with his evaluation of the works of Einstein (whom I hold in the very highest regard). This is not to say that Einstein was right in everything but I think Einstein was right in many things we no longer give him any credit for. In the same way Newton was also such a person... a man of his times.
Newton was also the first to espouse and publish a concept which every scientist should now aspire... "I feign no hypotheses" which is a departure from the Aristotelian concept of natural philosophy. This is not what modern science is about any more. What Newton was trying to say is make sure your theory is experimentally correct before worrying about how it fits with the classicists and other previous authorities. We have Occam's Razor which states that among an equally provable theories the simplest theory is usually the correct one. Unfortunately the human mind is not capable of knowing "all" possible equally acceptable and provable theories and because of hubris will not accept that other theories are of equal standing can only comprehend the simplest one that they know as being the best.
This concept was put recently by Micheu Kaku regarding Einstein's General Theory of Relativity being made into a "slogan" and placed on the front of T-shirts because of it's "intrinsic beauty". My view is this is a pretty stupid idea because there is no reason to accept that this theory in it's "simple" form has the ability to solve any realistic problems at all. It is of greater Mathematical Interest as an icon than it is of Scientific Interest simply because it is only "beautiful". I disagree... what is "beautiful" must be in the eye of the beholder and what the Universe "does" is beautiful and simpler than any Tensor Field theory equation "emblazoned" on the front of an "unthinking" mathematician's chest. You may as well throw in a couple of verses from the bible as well ... only the short quotes qualify... sound bytes. I can think of some Communist and Commercial advertising slogans which are more popular why not put them there too as many do. Better still... tattoo them on your forehead.
It is not that Newton was "wrong" in anything he had said but according to the limited science of the time he was "dead on target". Yet most of the society of his time did not take his hubris too well. They criticized him for his lack of diligence and deference to authorities that had come before. The relationship between Halley and Newton is a model of scientific behavior but the relationship between Hooke and Newton show also to what depths of hatred and spite great minds can fall into to. Another "bad report" of Newton regards Leibniz and his comparable but separate discovery of Calculus, Newton did not attempt to see and recognize the works of others and this may be due in part to Newton's reported Autism and lack of people skills or perhaps in later life his growing religious fervor and "madness". It is well to understand that that it is important to give due recognition of all those who have assisted and helped in all respects or have strived alone... Otherwise hubris can overcome the solitary mind and lead into madness and error. Everyone understands that Newton's Laws have some shortcomings but they are able to be remedied. All subsequent developments including Einstein's Theories and Quantum Mechanics are based on the insight that Newton provided to many previous generations of scientists and have been refined "marginally" since his day. Einstein is a true Genius and my favorite among all scientists but Newton was the greatest because his insights took us from the "Stone Age" of "tinkering" with science and experiments to a world of "Order" in which a way could be seen forward. As a person he was "aloof", distant and dismissive... not a nice person... but who really cares. We need to look past those limitations. His was the "stepping stone" of history that launched the "Enlightenment" that gave rise to the very minds that eventually signed the Declaration of Independence and in which the rights of all men were made sovereign (not just in America) and consequently led to the questioning of the enslavement others (everywhere). It had nothing much at all to do with the churches or good government, in fact it was a breakdown in government and church authority that precipitated it. Newton's legacy cannot be underestimated or delimited and it exceeded two thousand years and more of religious and political fervor and persecution supplanting them with free minds and opportunity that still echoes to this day... But one single stupid generation can take that all away. Newton probably never thought for a moment what he had started and relentlessly initiated .... he lit the fuse that would destroy the past and prepare us for a new tomorrow. Not bad for a crazy person.
As Zarkov has stated Newtons Laws (with some minor adjustments) are still used to steer the course to the planets and land men on the moon (I have not read about Zarkov's input into that debate... obviously I do not want to enter into that discussion.. It is a 'done deal" and a great achievement). What matters now is the future... nothing lasts forever as history has shown... and any accolade of the past will become jeering and stoning as the once feted end up on the guillotine. Science is not a series of equal steps towards goals... like Evolution... the steps occasionally are huge and unprecedented towards some new and unknown frontier. That was Newton and it is foolish to not see what what mighty deeds he has wrought... even if he did not see them himself.
Cheers
Are you talking about the same Zarkov that I've encountered? The Zarkov I know doesn't believe in Newtonian gravity or even Newtonian momentum.
Hi barakn et al,
QUOTE (barakn+)
Are you talking about the same Zarkov that I've encountered? The Zarkov I know doesn't believe in Newtonian gravity or even Newtonian momentum.
No... I am speaking about Newton and I am asking that we all consider our personal behavior first and let people have a "rant" if they want to without the abuse.
Cheers
PS: I am no "pillar of the community" either but I can understand the problem of getting a place to have a point of view expressed without "Big Brother" staring over our shoulder. Luckily I wear my tin foil hat under my tasseled beanie just for protection.
Cheers
PS: I am no "pillar of the community" either but I can understand the problem of getting a place to have a point of view expressed without "Big Brother" staring over our shoulder. Luckily I wear my tin foil hat under my tasseled beanie just for protection.
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 15 2008, 09:23 PM)
As Zarkov has stated Newtons Laws (with some minor adjustments) are still used to steer the course to the planets and land men on the moon
Thanks for taking my quote out of context.
Zarkov does not believe Newton's laws were used to land men on the moon.
Because
Zarkov Doesn't believe we HAVE landed men on the moon.
Arthur
Thanks for taking my quote out of context.
Zarkov does not believe Newton's laws were used to land men on the moon.
Because
Zarkov Doesn't believe we HAVE landed men on the moon.
Arthur
First, ESGT is heavily Newtonian. I have just built a castle on top... without Newton, then no cosmology!
Read Good Elf's magnificent essay again... Newton did not believe in "attraction at a distance"
nor do I.
Gravity pushes, not "pulls"... nothing can "pull". Unfortunately for Newton, no "experimentally verified" mechanism was known to science at that time.
If electrodynamics was known then..... no Dr E.
so do I, it is there that electrodynamic theory came of age. Dr E unfortunately re-wrote "Newtonian attraction" and wet the rubber sheet ! LOL
Walter Ritz, did a wonderful job as well.
Both failed at explaining gravity and therefore the cosmos however, (opinion drawn from analysis.)
Good Elf, may I place your dissertation on my web site.... I shall remove any reference to extraneous topics, such as "Zarkov"
That was such a stimulating read Good Elf !
and was a very very fitting end to this thread
Read Good Elf's magnificent essay again... Newton did not believe in "attraction at a distance"
nor do I.
Gravity pushes, not "pulls"... nothing can "pull". Unfortunately for Newton, no "experimentally verified" mechanism was known to science at that time.
If electrodynamics was known then..... no Dr E.
QUOTE
I have a great deal of respect for his Special Theory of Relativity
so do I, it is there that electrodynamic theory came of age. Dr E unfortunately re-wrote "Newtonian attraction" and wet the rubber sheet ! LOL
Walter Ritz, did a wonderful job as well.
Both failed at explaining gravity and therefore the cosmos however, (opinion drawn from analysis.)
Good Elf, may I place your dissertation on my web site.... I shall remove any reference to extraneous topics, such as "Zarkov"
That was such a stimulating read Good Elf !
and was a very very fitting end to this thread
Hi adoucette, Zarkov, yor_on, Trippy, The Doc, Sapo Username, JoelM, Atrus, Capracus et al,
QUOTE (adoucette+)
Thanks for taking my quote out of context. Zarkov does not believe Newton's laws were used to land men on the moon. Because Zarkov Doesn't believe we HAVE landed men on the moon.
Arthur
Welcome to the club. I am responding to what he actually said on his thread...
Arthur
Welcome to the club. I am responding to what he actually said on his thread...
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I am a classical cosmologist... I find Newton's work EXTREMELY intelligent... even NASA uses Newtonian formulations.
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.
SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force, black holes, white holes, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.
SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force, black holes, white holes, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh
He had a good word there about Newton... It is uncommon nowadays to think of Newton and to his place in our culture. I think he is of exceedingly great importance for the very things I have said in my previous post.
Like I said it is not good to punish people with science... it is not the intention... It is after all Zarkov's thread. We do not need to respond. What you said was very little along the science line and pretty long on punishment. From what you are saying there you are laying it on thick because of his environmental concerns. Science is meant to liberate the mind not shackle it. What others do with science is not my specific concern but I need to feel that we are all trying to encourage people everywhere to a greater understanding of our Universe. It is my belief that "good science" makes "good people"... conversely "bad science" makes "bad people" and leads to a general disillusionment with it. General enlightenment can't be had with wars or arguments or through vilification though this seems to be an example more honored in the breach than the observance... The world is thrust into turmoil because of the inability to handle emotional issues. It is clear though that there are some who think general conflict is "fun". Science needs nothing other than the demonstration of it's efficacy to show anyone its potential benefits or to see the way in which people put it to use to be able to judge them morally. This argument is something which is harming us all and brings science itself into disrepute seeing those who say they endorse it being so combative. You have a great mind adoucette and you could better use it in assisting rather than punishing others. IMHO If people do not listen it is best to simply just leave them or encourage them to see your point of view through constructive discussion.
Zarkov... He he he... It was not intended that I should be endorsing what you are saying in general... I agreed with what you said about Newton above. I think science is a "broad church" but it is not so broad that I would embrace any theory that could not be proven. What I mean by proven you would agree that it is only a relative Truth in that experiment and applications support it to the hilt. In the case of Special and General Relativity you can buy a GPS unit for a couple of hundred dollars in which about a dozen different relativistic corrections are required for every observation to keep your "global position" from wandering randomly about by up to 10 Kms per day.
What I am doing was endorsing the right for you to say it and feel free to criticize any institutions you see fit. This is because Newton, while being such a truly great man and at the same time so very deeply insightful, is able to teach us all about the real nature of knowledge and the way in which we can all fail. Newton failed in some ways too and he was not somebody everyone would like but fate chose him not you or I. Great wisdom must be tempered with an ability to readily learn. None of us are naturally great sources of wisdom. It is also not about gaining an accolade from others either, to be right does not mean that others will be able to recognize it or even want to recognize it. You may need to live with that point as do many others. Each of us has some ability to understand and we can either reach our full potential and learn as much as we are physically capable of or we can seriously "underachieve" through our own ego's getting in the way. IMHO Newton dissipated his ability in later life in endless studies and experiments in Alchemy which achieved nothing. Newton actually thought that he was making great progress toward the ultimate knowledge of the Philosopher's Stone while in that pursuit. The truth is he fell into the very trap that the ancients had prepared for him and his own hubris probably reduced him to a mental wreck.
This did not stop him becoming the most important mind ever to evolve from the human gene pool. As I have explained he "became" more than his fallible parts. Man wants to wield the power of the Universe but in the end it is the Universe itself that wields man to achieve it's own inscrutable goals. IMHO Newton, despite himself, became the most important figure in history (... no priest or politician will ever admit that... mark my words).
Cheers
PS: You can quote me if you like but you need to retain the context of this thread or at least refer others to it please. It is "bad science" to quote out of context. As to a "fitting end" to this thread... only time will tell.
you didn't... sorry
you stated
you didn't... sorry
you stated
This problem of the origin of gravity still worried Newton...
but your Wiki quote stated
and sorry, this brought "action at a distance" to mind. This misunderstanding is the now assumed mechanism (Newton shunned the concept) for the propagation of Newtonian gravity. He only referred to it because there was no known mechanism to account for the observations..... it was wrong, but ?convenient?
Even Dr E employed a surrogate in "mass curves space time"... err at a distance !
LOL
so there has been no progress in gravity. Strange physicists back then had problems with action at a distance, physicists today embrace such a philosophically illogical concept with open arms

But it is funny how science plays out
I now believe from mathematical evidence, and very recent satellite observations that Rene Descartes was very close to the truth re the structure of the Universe.
and sorry, this brought "action at a distance" to mind. This misunderstanding is the now assumed mechanism (Newton shunned the concept) for the propagation of Newtonian gravity. He only referred to it because there was no known mechanism to account for the observations..... it was wrong, but ?convenient?
Even Dr E employed a surrogate in "mass curves space time"... err at a distance !
LOL
so there has been no progress in gravity. Strange physicists back then had problems with action at a distance, physicists today embrace such a philosophically illogical concept with open arms

But it is funny how science plays out
I now believe from mathematical evidence, and very recent satellite observations that Rene Descartes was very close to the truth re the structure of the Universe.
* the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data
yes, there is no fantasy there !, or here (Electrodynamic Spin Gravity Theory)
spacetime curvature..... LOL, what a word
... remove that and insert field spin and I might agree.
IMO space is just space, while time does not exist (except mentally for creatures that can act),
but in my world space is full of anisotropic differentially driven energy fields (much like cogs in a gearbox), and these mediate everything cosmic, including so called "gravity"
That's my take for reasons so well described above by Newton *
It really is very pleasant to have some meaningful exchanges in science.
I must admit this could well be the first time in at least 8 years of being a hated net-scientist for telling it as experimental evidence sees it, rather than surface skimming and cherry picking.
Good Elf you and I agree on many thing, but definitely not all (that's the nature of the scientific investigation).... and believe me I take all comments in an impersonal way..... and unless I am addressed directly, I do not assume I am the focus of any comment.
Like I said it is not good to punish people with science... it is not the intention... It is after all Zarkov's thread. We do not need to respond. What you said was very little along the science line and pretty long on punishment. From what you are saying there you are laying it on thick because of his environmental concerns. Science is meant to liberate the mind not shackle it. What others do with science is not my specific concern but I need to feel that we are all trying to encourage people everywhere to a greater understanding of our Universe. It is my belief that "good science" makes "good people"... conversely "bad science" makes "bad people" and leads to a general disillusionment with it. General enlightenment can't be had with wars or arguments or through vilification though this seems to be an example more honored in the breach than the observance... The world is thrust into turmoil because of the inability to handle emotional issues. It is clear though that there are some who think general conflict is "fun". Science needs nothing other than the demonstration of it's efficacy to show anyone its potential benefits or to see the way in which people put it to use to be able to judge them morally. This argument is something which is harming us all and brings science itself into disrepute seeing those who say they endorse it being so combative. You have a great mind adoucette and you could better use it in assisting rather than punishing others. IMHO If people do not listen it is best to simply just leave them or encourage them to see your point of view through constructive discussion.
Zarkov... He he he... It was not intended that I should be endorsing what you are saying in general... I agreed with what you said about Newton above. I think science is a "broad church" but it is not so broad that I would embrace any theory that could not be proven. What I mean by proven you would agree that it is only a relative Truth in that experiment and applications support it to the hilt. In the case of Special and General Relativity you can buy a GPS unit for a couple of hundred dollars in which about a dozen different relativistic corrections are required for every observation to keep your "global position" from wandering randomly about by up to 10 Kms per day.
What I am doing was endorsing the right for you to say it and feel free to criticize any institutions you see fit. This is because Newton, while being such a truly great man and at the same time so very deeply insightful, is able to teach us all about the real nature of knowledge and the way in which we can all fail. Newton failed in some ways too and he was not somebody everyone would like but fate chose him not you or I. Great wisdom must be tempered with an ability to readily learn. None of us are naturally great sources of wisdom. It is also not about gaining an accolade from others either, to be right does not mean that others will be able to recognize it or even want to recognize it. You may need to live with that point as do many others. Each of us has some ability to understand and we can either reach our full potential and learn as much as we are physically capable of or we can seriously "underachieve" through our own ego's getting in the way. IMHO Newton dissipated his ability in later life in endless studies and experiments in Alchemy which achieved nothing. Newton actually thought that he was making great progress toward the ultimate knowledge of the Philosopher's Stone while in that pursuit. The truth is he fell into the very trap that the ancients had prepared for him and his own hubris probably reduced him to a mental wreck.
This did not stop him becoming the most important mind ever to evolve from the human gene pool. As I have explained he "became" more than his fallible parts. Man wants to wield the power of the Universe but in the end it is the Universe itself that wields man to achieve it's own inscrutable goals. IMHO Newton, despite himself, became the most important figure in history (... no priest or politician will ever admit that... mark my words).
Cheers
PS: You can quote me if you like but you need to retain the context of this thread or at least refer others to it please. It is "bad science" to quote out of context. As to a "fitting end" to this thread... only time will tell.
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
Read Good Elf's magnificent essay again... Newton did not believe in "attraction at a distance"
nor do I.
nor do I.
I don't recall mentioning anything about "action at a distance" but I do know that spacetime is curved at a distance. Some aspects of General Relativity and their effect on GPS can detect an action on spacetime curvature in Earth Orbit due to the relative motion of the distant planets.
QUOTE
I don't recall mentioning anything about "action at a distance"
you didn't... sorry
you stated
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I don't recall mentioning anything about "action at a distance" |
you didn't... sorry
you stated
This problem of the origin of gravity still worried Newton...
but your Wiki quote stated
QUOTE
However, the concept of an attractive force acting at a distance received a cooler response. In his notes, Newton wrote that the inverse square law arose naturally due to the structure of matter. However, he retracted this sentence in the published version, where he stated that the motion of planets is consistent with an inverse square law, but refused to speculate on the origin of the law. Huygens and Leibniz noted that the law was incompatible with the notion of the aether. From a Cartesian point of view, therefore, this was a faulty theory. Newton's defence has been adopted since by many famous physicists — he pointed out that the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data, and he refused to speculate further on the basic nature of gravity.
and sorry, this brought "action at a distance" to mind. This misunderstanding is the now assumed mechanism (Newton shunned the concept) for the propagation of Newtonian gravity. He only referred to it because there was no known mechanism to account for the observations..... it was wrong, but ?convenient?
Even Dr E employed a surrogate in "mass curves space time"... err at a distance !
LOL
so there has been no progress in gravity. Strange physicists back then had problems with action at a distance, physicists today embrace such a philosophically illogical concept with open arms
But it is funny how science plays out
I now believe from mathematical evidence, and very recent satellite observations that Rene Descartes was very close to the truth re the structure of the Universe.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| However, the concept of an attractive force acting at a distance received a cooler response. In his notes, Newton wrote that the inverse square law arose naturally due to the structure of matter. However, he retracted this sentence in the published version, where he stated that the motion of planets is consistent with an inverse square law, but refused to speculate on the origin of the law. Huygens and Leibniz noted that the law was incompatible with the notion of the aether. From a Cartesian point of view, therefore, this was a faulty theory. Newton's defence has been adopted since by many famous physicists — he pointed out that the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data, and he refused to speculate further on the basic nature of gravity. |
and sorry, this brought "action at a distance" to mind. This misunderstanding is the now assumed mechanism (Newton shunned the concept) for the propagation of Newtonian gravity. He only referred to it because there was no known mechanism to account for the observations..... it was wrong, but ?convenient?
Even Dr E employed a surrogate in "mass curves space time"... err at a distance !
LOL
so there has been no progress in gravity. Strange physicists back then had problems with action at a distance, physicists today embrace such a philosophically illogical concept with open arms
But it is funny how science plays out
I now believe from mathematical evidence, and very recent satellite observations that Rene Descartes was very close to the truth re the structure of the Universe.
* the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data
yes, there is no fantasy there !, or here (Electrodynamic Spin Gravity Theory)
QUOTE
Some aspects of General Relativity and their effect on GPS can detect an action on spacetime curvature in Earth Orbit due to the relative motion of the distant planets.
spacetime curvature..... LOL, what a word
IMO space is just space, while time does not exist (except mentally for creatures that can act),
but in my world space is full of anisotropic differentially driven energy fields (much like cogs in a gearbox), and these mediate everything cosmic, including so called "gravity"
That's my take for reasons so well described above by Newton *
It really is very pleasant to have some meaningful exchanges in science.
I must admit this could well be the first time in at least 8 years of being a hated net-scientist for telling it as experimental evidence sees it, rather than surface skimming and cherry picking.
Good Elf you and I agree on many thing, but definitely not all (that's the nature of the scientific investigation).... and believe me I take all comments in an impersonal way..... and unless I am addressed directly, I do not assume I am the focus of any comment.
Hi Zarkov,
I do not believe in "action at a distance" either in the strict sense of the meaning. What I was just illustrating is probably the truth about how mass actually extends away from a source. It is not easy to capture an idea like that. I would not say it here if I did not read it in the literature. Action at a distance is not one of Einstein's ideas at all in fact as stated by Einstein mass is a purely local phenomenon in which mass curves spacetime and spacetime tell the mass how to move. Why it is necessary to speak about "spacetime" as a single entity is simply a requirement to build all that "technical stuff" so it actually works because it is a mutual interaction. Time is not running exactly the same everywhere. It is just the way it is. But spin and Gravitation is definitely an important consideration that is normally not part of the vanilla flavored General Theory of Relativity. A quick check will show that there is already a glaring mistake or at least an incompleteness in Einstein's Theory of General Relativity because it leaves out torsion in spacetime due to "parallel transport". Clearly every atomic particle with mass is subject to a "Berry Phase" in the matter wave "field" (if we can call it that). Naturally Einstein would never have suspected the full ramifications of this. I do not want to begin a discussion of this matter here but check it out...
I do not believe in "action at a distance" either in the strict sense of the meaning. What I was just illustrating is probably the truth about how mass actually extends away from a source. It is not easy to capture an idea like that. I would not say it here if I did not read it in the literature. Action at a distance is not one of Einstein's ideas at all in fact as stated by Einstein mass is a purely local phenomenon in which mass curves spacetime and spacetime tell the mass how to move. Why it is necessary to speak about "spacetime" as a single entity is simply a requirement to build all that "technical stuff" so it actually works because it is a mutual interaction. Time is not running exactly the same everywhere. It is just the way it is. But spin and Gravitation is definitely an important consideration that is normally not part of the vanilla flavored General Theory of Relativity. A quick check will show that there is already a glaring mistake or at least an incompleteness in Einstein's Theory of General Relativity because it leaves out torsion in spacetime due to "parallel transport". Clearly every atomic particle with mass is subject to a "Berry Phase" in the matter wave "field" (if we can call it that). Naturally Einstein would never have suspected the full ramifications of this. I do not want to begin a discussion of this matter here but check it out...