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Zarkov
http://www.physorg.com/news124169694.html

QUOTE
The conditions of the early times are imprinted on this light. It is the result of what happened earlier, and a backlight for the later development of the universe. This light lost energy as the universe expanded over 13.7 billion years, so WMAP now sees the light as microwaves.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The conditions of the early times are imprinted on this light. It is the result of what happened earlier, and a backlight for the later development of the universe. This light lost energy as the universe expanded over 13.7 billion years, so WMAP now sees the light as microwaves.


WMAP has answered many longstanding questions about the universe's age

WMAP has found evidence .............from the early universe.


QUOTE
Microwave light seen by WMAP from when the universe was only 380,000 years old,



Just one question

If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time

and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now

How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?


There are some serious questions to ask

Why are physicists so illogical, why are they all high on fantasy ?
There is hardly any theories they sprout "today" that actually could be based upon or in fact.

This forum weeds out "pseudoscience" but its playpen is all made of pseudoscience.... no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.

never question !!! the truth is nowhere to be found.... LOL

Y'all are sooooooooooooooooooo strange
TheDoc
Zarkov, science is not limited by your lack of imagination.
Zarkov
QUOTE
science is not limited by your lack of imagination.


indeed
but science is totally destroyed by a lack of 'rational' imagination.
The Universe does have some rules that human beings must adhere to, if their science is to have any bearing on the absolute reality they live in.

It is impossible to be at the end of your long journey before you start..... it is impossible to see the direct light from your birth when you are at your death.

When science declares its truths without the support of reality, then all beware....

we are in an age of deceit and madness

TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
When science declares its truths without the support of reality, then all beware....


Says the guy who claims the moon landings were faked.

QUOTE
we are in an age of deceit and madness


Most of the madness stems from narrow-minded paranoid wackos like you.
adoucette
QUOTE (TheDoc+Mar 8 2008, 06:19 PM)

Most of the madness stems from narrow-minded paranoid wackos like you.

Zarkov sets up a STRAW MAN argument.

Then he shows how that same argument is false.

Then he believes that this ability, to defeat strawman arguments of his own creation, makes him smarter than the actual scientists in their field of study.

Finally, be brags about his self deluded ability on a public forum and when he is repeatedly told AND SHOWN that he is wrong, he simply jumps to another thread and starts the same process over again, usually with a parting shot that the rest of us are simply stupid for not buying his hokum.

Only thing I can say in his favor is he is at least somewhat consistent in his delusions.

Arthur
phyti
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 10:48 PM)
Just one question

If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time

and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now

How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?


There are some serious questions to ask


You're not alone, I had the same question.
Extending the event horizon backward, it would seem like the earliest events would have already been seen.
The proposed explaination is inflation, where the universe temporarily expands at a faster than light rate, then the galaxies form at a large spatial separations and wait to receive the light emitted from the earliest events. That's what I got out of the publications.
yor_on
Yeah, Phyti that is one answer making sense.
On the other hand :)
Our universe may be expanding but it's doing it in spherical fashion, right.
So maybe it's reflected neutrinos etc that we see.
Or ::))
Good Elf
Hi Zarkov, yor_on, phyti, TheDoc, adoucette et al,

QUOTE (Zarkov+)
If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time

and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now

How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
Simply stated the distances is immense and it takes time for light to travel immense distances... The Universe is like a "Hall of Mirrors".... the mirrors are "very far away" and imperfect but we can see reflections of what happened 13.7 BY ago simply because it take that much time for light to travel from then to get here.

The reason why the Universe is so large so fast is because everything is subject to "Universal Expansion" where every point of "stuff" is moving away from every other point of "stuff" (like points on the surface of an expanding balloon). This expansion is due to our Universe still expanding into "something" which may or may not be confined. This is a form of "frame dragging". Very soon (in terms of billions of years) "opposite sides of this expansion" will be moving away from the points on the opposite side faster than the local velocity of light. This occurs for the "bulk of the Universe" but not for any particular particle. This expansion is still infinitesimal in the volume of your room but something which "adds up" when you consider distances between galaxies.

This "frame dragging" is caused by falling freely in space, and apparently this process is accelerating as the Universe gets older. This means that the rate of expansion is still increasing. At some point light from some reaches in space "launched" in our direction will never reach us simply because the actual total distance between those distance places is expanding at a faster rate than light travels in trying to cross it. At that point in time "matter" out there ceases to influence us not only through its light but also through its Gravatation (because gravity also propagates at the speed of light). It just drops over an event horizon. These regions are beyond our ability to ever know anything about. They are called "Rindler Foliations".
Packing Universes In Spacetime

Cheers
Zarkov
QUOTE
what happened 13.7 BY ago simply because it take that much time for light to travel from then to get here.


I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!
Earth had to be made AFTER that light left......... so somehow according to physicist's logic, we got here FASTER..... like really much much faster than light can travel..... all mega-tera-tonnage of us..... and we even had time for a nice cuppa-tea before we looked down our telescope.

Inflation is not an answer...... madness is !
blink.gif

Thanks Good Elf for presenting "accepted logic",
I wonder which way one has to look to find the centre of the "Big Bang" ????
LOL.... human beings, y'all are bonkers.

But worse, when such propaganda is driven as truth into the minds of the young, science has become no better than politics..... nasty,... truth is the madness of the "peer reviewer". In this manner, Dr E had his bullshite accepted.

Earth you are in your last days, and you are too blinded to notice.

I C all the bottom crawling low life have found the silk purse and are trying to turn it into a sow's ear by shi-ting all over it!

How about either joining the conversation or take your crap to the nearest latrine over there ----->>
TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
or take your crap to the nearest latrine over there ----->>


Look in a mirror.
yor_on
GoodElf good point but you say that in ' Very soon (in terms of billions of years) "opposite sides of this expansion" will be moving away from the points on the opposite side faster than the local velocity of light.'
Now I'm guessing that you don't mean that those boundaries will pass 'c'? only that the light remitted from it will take longer to reflect than the age of our universe.
Or?

Do we /will we have two singularities?
The big bang where everything expanded faster than 'c'
And now that boundary too?

that the outer 'shell' of the boundary may have any 'speed' it likes I can accept, but not the 'stuff' inside it, our universe..
adoucette
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 09:37 PM)

I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!
Earth had to be made AFTER that light left......... so somehow according to physicist's logic, we got here FASTER..... like really much much faster than light can travel..... all mega-tera-tonnage of us..... and we even had time for a nice cuppa-tea before we looked down our telescope.


Because what the WMAP "sees" is the energy from the ionized hydrogen gas of the early universe, and the energy that WMAP measures wasn't released until that gas had cooled to 3000° K.

Arguments from incredulity, as you like to do, are rather tiresome.

Why don't you skip the pop-level stories and take the time to find out WHAT the spacecraft actually senses before claiming that it makes no sense?

Here's a primer.

http://background.uchicago.edu/%7ewhu/begi...troduction.html

Arthur
Username
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 9 2008, 02:37 AM)
I only ask, HOW did WE get here before the light, so WE can see it now !!!!!

You must understand that distant receding objects like super-red shifted galaxies obey the time dilation affect, i.e we could observe a such a galaxy for 1000 years, however we'd only be witnessing a few actual seconds.

It is astoundingly apparent that you've absolutely no comprehension of even the most basic concepts in physics, which begs the question: why are you here?, when breathing must obviously present a formidable intellectual challenge to you.


Zarkov
if you wish to evoke the highly unlikely and contrived expansion theory to explain the contradiction then you are relying on the red shift as evidence.

Unfortunately with the observed orbital velocity irregularities in fly by space probes, the red shift then needs to be reinterpreted.

Each spin field alters the direction of passing particles, each spin field exchanges energy and that would also apply to light

The Big Bang Theory has exploded, IMO
Username
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 9 2008, 08:54 AM)
Unfortunately with the observed orbital velocity irregularities in fly by space probes

A common sense explanation would be velocity impedance via space dust - and not some magical fairy factor .... really. dry.gif
Trippy
I was wondering how long it would take Zarkov to get hold of this.

Oi vey.
Zarkov
QUOTE
I was wondering how long it would take Zarkov to get hold of this.


I predicted these changes in orbital characteristics from math calculations 5 years ago, and of course that attracted the vermin when I posted. ph34r.gif

Nice to see that the structure of space is somewhat as ESGT describes and that explanations are really rational as opposed to the total crap that has been dished out over the last 100 odd years.

Nice to see unworthy concocted theories bite the dust.

No doubt y'all still read your fairy stories, and still believe in footsteps on the Moon.
TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I predicted these changes in orbital characteristics from math calculations 5 years ago, and of course that attracted the vermin when I posted.


Of course you did laugh.gif

QUOTE
Nice to see unworthy concocted theories bite the dust.


Yes, it was nice to see your theory bite the dust Zarkov. Very nice indeed laugh.gif
Atrus
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 10:48 PM)
http://www.physorg.com/news124169694.html








Just one question

If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time

and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now

How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?


There are some serious questions to ask

Why are physicists so illogical, why are they all high on fantasy ?
There is hardly any theories they sprout "today" that actually could be based upon or in fact.

This forum weeds out "pseudoscience" but its playpen is all made of pseudoscience.... no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.

never question !!! the truth is nowhere to be found.... LOL

Y'all are sooooooooooooooooooo strange

It is common sense Not to ask such a question.

The answer that you have in mind denies your existence, does it not ?
Zarkov
QUOTE
It is common sense Not to ask such a question.


It is a 'Big Bang or not' question..... The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It is common sense Not to ask such a question.


It is a 'Big Bang or not' question..... The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.

The answer that you have in mind denies your existence, does it not ?


Steady state allows me to have existed and to continue existing for an eternity. Which is correct.

Is the Universe expanding as fast as the ignorance of most of the posters here ?

The Universe IS NOT EXPANDING

Little bangs go on all the time, ......a local spin field expansion, then a collapse, only to then expand again..... it all is mediated by energy.

Why do human beings think they can formulate theory TRUTH when they hardly know any evidence, nor have they any real understanding of that which they think they already know.

The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.

LOL
TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.


Prove it.

QUOTE
The Universe IS NOT EXPANDING


Maybe in your closed, twisted little mind it isn't. In the real world, however, it is.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The Universe IS NOT EXPANDING


Maybe in your closed, twisted little mind it isn't. In the real world, however, it is.

The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles


Oh we already know that - you're the proof of it!

QUOTE
LOL


Believe me, we are laughing out loud at you laugh.gif
Atrus
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 10 2008, 01:37 AM)


The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.

Well, your head obviously disappeared up your own orifice a long time ago.

Many well - known physicists believe in the big bang, and they are way smarter than a dumb*** like you.
Zarkov
No answers here, y'all accept unbelievable and illogical explanations.



LOL, you guys will believe anything without further thought.... err, except the truth !

now that is a sign of a real idiot
Capracus
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 8 2008, 10:48 PM)
Just one question

If the Universe was "created" 13.7 billion years ago
and Earth is part of the Universe
so logically Earth is younger than 13.7 billion years
and it is impossible to be in two places at the same time

and if light travels at max speed.... much much faster than the speed Earth could travel at, and considering Earth had to form, and LIFE had to germinate and reach the age of human beings... now

How did Earth with humans get here now to greet (detect) the image of the creation of the Universe before the "light" given out by the beginning of the Universe reached these parts,.............. only reaching here now ?
Dr. Zarkov, the Big Bang states that space itself expanded faster than the speed of light, not the matter contained within it. This would allow you and the Earth to form in it's present location ahead of the CMB radiation that was generated 13.7 billion years ago.

QUOTE
Astronomical observations indicate that the universe is 13.73 ± 0.12 billion years old and at least 93 billion light years across. The event that started the universe is called the Big Bang. At this point in time all matter and energy of the observable universe was concentrated in one point of infinite density. After the Big Bang the universe started to expand to its present form. Since special relativity states that matter cannot exceed the speed of light in a fixed space-time, it may seem paradoxical that two galaxies can be separated by 93 billion light years in 13 billion years; however, this separation is a natural consequence of general relativity. Stated simply, space can expand with no intrinsic limit on its rate; thus, two galaxies can separate more quickly than the speed of light if the space between them grows. Experimental measurements such as the redshifts and spatial distribution of distant galaxies, the cosmic microwave background radiation, and the relative percentages of the lighter chemical elements, support this theoretical expansion and, more generally, the Big Bang theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe



yor_on
Thanks for that one Capracus.

But it doesn't explain how the 'barrier' of our universe might expand faster than light, not if it's taking matter with it.
Or maybe that empty ?whatever? created in its wake are the birth place of 'forced' matter creation (think virtual) as nature abhors 'emptiness'?
Good Elf
Hi yor_on,

QUOTE (yor_on+)
GoodElf good point but you say that in ' Very soon (in terms of billions of years) "opposite sides of this expansion" will be moving away from the points on the opposite side faster than the local velocity of light.'
Now I'm guessing that you don't mean that those boundaries will pass 'c'? only that the light remitted from it will take longer to reflect than the age of our universe.
Or?

Do we /will we have two singularities?
The big bang where everything expanded faster than 'c'
And now that boundary too?

that the outer 'shell' of the boundary may have any 'speed' it likes I can accept, but not the 'stuff' inside it, our universe..
The Universe is expanding into either a closed dimensional space or an open dimensional space (we don't really know which). Best guess it is either a closed spacetime called a de Sitter Space or the inverse... an Anti-de Sitter Space. I am plugging on the "anti-de Sitter Space" since that puts us on an inside of a "balloon universe". IMHO the AdS/CFT Conjecture sums it up. This is a "reciprocal space" relative to what is on the "outside".. The Big Bang is not an "exploding shell" of matter such as you would get with an exploding ordinance in space that happened 13.74 Billion Years ago... Everything now is in a wholly uniform and universal process of constant expansion in which there can be no center and no rim or edge. There are some asymmetry for sure, that is another story.

Lets say you were a tiny beetle walking around the inside surface of a very large inflated balloon. The beetle walks and walks and never finds the edge or the center if it is confined to the inner surface. Our entire universe is "probably" like that balloon and the contents of our universe are confined to a "hyper-surface" for there is no "interior" or "edge" that can be reached by anything in our Universe. Still objects can get a maximum distance away from each other before they begin to return to where they originally started off from. We really do not know which kind of Universe we live in but the WIMAP data suggests that our universe is indeed closed and it has "internal connectivity" that matches a kind of Poincaré Dodecahedral Toroidal space with a wrapping similar to the computer game of "Asteroids" with a 1/6th "twist". This "connection" is on a truly "cosmic scale". Spacetime appears to be "multiply connected" (see fig 2 of the article linked below). It also means that all of space has this general symmetry in it even though the overall shape is "spherical". This means that in our Cosmic Asteroids Game our little spaceships and asteroids are confined to move around inside a smaller volume endlessly due to the way spacetime is wrapped on itself toroidally.
A cosmic hall of mirrors: PhysicsWorld
Other parts of this grand structure exist and reflect this expanding structure as defined by the Rindler Foliations I quoted in the on line article previously...
Packing Universes In Spacetime
... which is part of an online book called...
Reflections on Relativity
Of which this is one small chapter 7.5.

When Einstein said that everything is relative he actually meant it. Consider that our entire Universe is on the inside of a Black Hole then there are points on the "outside" of the black hole that, from our point of view, we can never reach. It really depends on the dynamics of "our" black hole that determines where an event horizon exists. Moving around in our space could move the event horizon around for us in the way that moving around on the surface of the earth moves the relative position of the horizon seen there. It is a "little more complicated" for our Universe though. Everything inside of our "black Universe" is expanding into something... like a bubble but we are like the surface of a bubble and everything in a surface of a bubble is moving away from everything else and the rate at which that movement is occurring depends on the distance between selected points. The further the points are away from each other the faster they are moving and conversely the shorter the distances the slower they are moving. This is roughly the picture you get if you select absolutely any pair of points anywhere in the Universe with a smaller influence due to this "connection". This is simply the Hubble Red Shift known of for quite a long time now. The process may also relate to "dark matter" and to the process known as "dark energy". There is just not enough information right now to make a full assessment. As an object emitting light towards us gets close to our apparent event horizon the light is Doppler Shifted more and more into the red band even though it is not accelerating in its frame of reference but falling freely. As I have previously stated no object can ever appear to move faster than 1/2 the speed of light away from us using only this single process so what happens when the particle moves over the event horizon is it will simply disappear from view as if it went over the hill. Not only is it not seen anymore it's gravity ceases to affect us anymore either.

It just so happens that there may be directions we may want to move in that this process leads to a requirement that particles must move into a Rindler Foliation (there is a diagram in that article above). If you go there the continued expansion of the Universe will "eventually" leave everything you left behind forever and you can never go back.

In the case of Black Holes... It is not certain that falling freely into a black hole will result in your annihilation. It is not certain that there are any singularities inside a black hole. It is no longer certain that an object falling into a black hole will hit the singularity for many billions of years. This is like what we see in our Universe and it's resident black holes. Perhaps whole galaxies can "fall" into a massive black hole and not experience any undue forces. It really depends on it actual size. It has been said that spagettification is what would happen to any traveler that falls into a black hole (being drawn apart into thin strands... As was the story's plot in Larry Niven's short story "Neutron Star"). This process is no longer certain either. Event horizons "exist" whenever two points are moving apart at greater than the speed of light such as "over the edge of a black hole" but the same phenomenon can occur in space as well due to relentless frame dragging and vast intervening spreading distances. It is not such a good story to tell people that they are all at the bottom of a "black bottomless pit" from which there can be no return... he he he.

Cheer up... things could be "worse" eh?

Cheers
yor_on
Ok GoodElf.

Two questions.

1. Can you tell or link me to where you explain the concept of 1/2 'c'
2. that Idea of how black holes may treat incoming objects?

Does it originate from the theory that states that nothing will reach the 'core' of a black hole.
If so that's an idea, and a very strange one to me as it seems to make black holes almost impossible to create.
They may only be created at the 'big bang' or?
(It was some time since I saw that one first)
JoelM
Interesting, despite the hystrionics from both sides.

It leaves me with this question: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?

Thanks
JoelM
Interesting, despite the hystrionics.

I'm left with this question though: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?

Thanks
Username
QUOTE (JoelM+Mar 11 2008, 08:04 PM)
Interesting, despite the hystrionics.

I'm left with this question though: Isn't everywhere the center of the Big Bang?

Thanks


Yes and No.
yor_on
The center of the big bang?
Well if we are expanding uniformly then turn it around.
You can count out all other motion as the expanding is done in every 'point'
after shrinking it to your satisfaction please post me your result :)
Zarkov
you guys ever heard of Occam's Razor ?

it says
basically anything could be true
BUT in science acceptance of the SIMPLEST (if at the same accuracy) explanation is the BEST explanation...

If you would only read what y'all are writing... more and more complex concepts/arguments, more and more contortions...... it is all getting so surreal that it is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE

BUT WORSE... there are simpler explanations, put forward over time, only now being verified, that explain the formulations/observations

The problem physics has is that physicists have accepted Dr E's explanations.... totally convoluted and fanciful

and of course any proposition drawn from this BS leads anyone to nightmares......

Occam's Razor likes ESGT and steady states and basically a normal everyday world..... one we all can understand and enjoy.
TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
If you would only read what y'all are writing... more and more complex concepts/arguments, more and more contortions...... it is all getting so surreal that it is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE


Why, you've just described your own work!
Zarkov
OK lets play Think of a random reason

Your reasoning is that space expands many many, like unbelievably many magnitudes faster than... the speed of light

Expansion of space, but not its contents...----> leads to distance between objects, so we can be here like 13 Billion years before light gets here from "there".... even though 'we' in material spirit, were there when the light left..... oh my gosh, my fingers rebel at such suggestions.....
13 billion years at the speed of light =..... mmmh, not much bigger than my ***

anyway, is the above 'expansion concept' correct?

What happens to magnetic and electric fields in this process?

Are they "stretched" as well ? mmmh, to do all that WORK would take IMMENSE amounts of energy...... oh yes E=Mc^2 that will fix it...NOT

so what is the take on all this.... and tell me why y'all believe such drivel blink.gif

I am researching the deterioration of the mental structures on this planet... and a curious planet it is, where individuals *** in their own nests.....

Y'all can help me in my thesis, just tell Zarkov about all your confusions
TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I am researching the deterioration of the mental structures on this planet...


And you're using yourself as a test subject?

QUOTE
Y'all can help me in my thesis, just tell Zarkov about all your confusions


Okay. Why are you such a wacko loon?
Zarkov
QUOTE
Why are you such a wacko loon?


Today is the Age of Universal Madness....

To be truly sane in an insane world, means that you are viewed as insane by those that are truly insane, LOL blink.gif

you work it out

Now I want you to answer

Where are your list of predictions? .... or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin

LOL idiot!

Why do you discount truth given in good faith, when you offer nothing in return?

Answer...... no don't bother, I know the answer; you know no thing at all.
TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
To be truly sane in an insane world, means that you are viewed as insane by those that are truly insane, LOL


Philosophical nonsense. All it proves is that you're more of a loon than we thought.

QUOTE
or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin


Nope, that'd be you.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin


Nope, that'd be you.

idiot!


You've just described yourself brilliantly laugh.gif

QUOTE
you know no thing at all.


Oh the irony laugh.gif
Good Elf
Hi Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Username, JoelM, Trippy, Atrus, Capracus et al,


First I would like to remind everyone this is Zarkov's Thread and he is here to debate these points with us so we all need to take a deep breath and accept that there are going to be differences of opinion. What Zarkov thinks is madness is everyday physics in the 21st Century. I am not so sure that we can convince him that we are not "vermin" rolleyes.gif so we may need to find out what it really is that he is objecting to. Let's just drop the name calling.

On another "easier" set of questions..
QUOTE (yor_on+)
Ok GoodElf.

Two questions.

1. Can you tell or link me to where you explain the concept of 1/2 'c'
2. that Idea of how black holes may treat incoming objects?

Does it originate from the theory that states that nothing will reach the 'core' of a black hole.
If so that's an idea, and a very strange one to me as it seems to make black holes almost impossible to create.
They may only be created at the 'big bang' or?
(It was some time since I saw that one first)

Q1. Assume a vessel is moving at constant velocity away from an observer at almost exactly the speed of light (the maximum possible velocity) so close the difference can't be measured (to make this analysis obvious). Pay no attention to relativistic effects in the frame of the vessel these do not concern us as "observers". We determine distance from observer using only parallax. The speed of light is the same in all reference frames so position is defined in our observer frame of reference by "triggers" placed along the straight line path of the vessel away from the observers near the earth. We do know that since the velocity of the vessel is almost exactly the speed of light the vessel will actually pass one light second, two light seconds, 3, 4, 6, and 8 light seconds and so on after one, two, three, four, six, eight seconds in the observer frame of reference respectively. We arrange by a careful placement of these "triggers" to emit a flash of light from the vessel (or even from a nearby beacon at rest in our system) at almost exactly one light second distances as the vessel passes (perhaps by closing a contact or something). This is done automatically using these "trigger" as the vessel passes these waypoints placed along the way at one, two, three, four, six and eight light seconds (distance) from the "home observer" (and so on if needed). The delay in the propagation of light back to the "home observer" of the flash of light from the first four waypoints at these distances back to "base" is an additional one, two, three and four seconds. At those exact times the signal is received back at the home observer... the vessel will actually be physically at positions two, four, six and eight light seconds from the home observer (the time it takes light to travel back to the home observer from those respective distances). These are the "actual" distances the vessel will be at when the signals from the one, two, three and four light second flashes are received by the home observer.
Recession Speed Problem
You can see with this illustration how when a vessel is seen at various positions 1,2,3,4 light seconds distance away, the time it is seen there is delayed by the amount on the little arrow pointing back to the observer position. This is the time light takes to propagate back to base in seconds. When the observer sees the vessel after that delay in time the positions to the right are actually where the vessel actually is at that time. The slope of the lines represent velocity (distance/time) the left is the observed velocity and the right is the actual velocity (relative to observer position and times).

If you are "johnny on the spot" the velocity of the vessel is calculated by the position the vessel as seen to be in at the actual time of passing these positions relative to the observer frame clock. There would need to be an automatic recording being made using a synchronized clock at each of the positions one, two, three, four, six and eight. If we correlate these readings later we will obtain a velocity for the vessel as nearly the speed of light (that is what we have contrived the vessel to be traveling at). Using the "observed" velocity of recession and knowing the positions either by "color coding" the light flashes for distance or through the use of optical parallax the velocities "appear" to be only 1/2 that recorded by distant observations being correlated. The single observer on earth sees the vessel apparently traveling at only 1/2 the speed of light due to propagation delays due to the receding vessel. This case is the extremum... all other speeds will appear to be less than this in the absense of universal expansion or gravatational distortions.

I would like to point out that the actual physical differences between the speed of light and the speed of our vessel are of a small order in the frame of the observer. In the frame of the vessel the effects of Special Relativity are "extreme" to say the least. Luckily we can ignore that point from our anthropocentric perspective.

It is a simple idea but it is totally unappreciated.that there is a difference between recorded position and time data obtained on the spot fully corrected for propagation delay and single observer perspective data which is the only data we are currently able to obtain from space objects far off in space. To make "guesses" about what things are doing out there you need a "theory" of how the Universe works which includes both General Relativistic corrections and Special Relativistic effects and then to add into the mix what is happening to the "intervening volume of space" due to "universal expansion". This is all part of Cosmology... Not my specific field.

Q2. Quite a lot has been coming out about Black Holes lately. Black Holes can be any size from tiny ones that the SSC at CERN might produce to ones the size of many solar systems. The big ones would allow a planet to fall in without spagettification. One example of this idea is in this article...
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/fuzzball.htm
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0502050
You can read up on these ideas here...

Run out of time tonight ... must sleep.. got the flu.

Cheers
Zarkov
Thanks for thoughtful reply Good Elf smile.gif

Thoughts on your thoughts.......
When cosmic theory has to be explained in anthropomorphic terms IMO it becomes "tainted" with our logic.

Logic is great fun, but modeling reality is really the name of the game.

Cosmic relations just are,... with or without an observer, and as such the only players on stage should be the actors of the cosmos portrayed by their various parameters (which we determine by actual measurement).

Dr E thought human observers were/are the focus of interest..... however such an approach has led cosmology astray, IMO.

You should note that Newton never fell into this trap.

Physics is a science that does not need human input, because it is a study of the "consequences of natural action".

Point 1
Cosmology/physics has become human mind-games, where the play is based entirely on "I think, therefore it is" supported by mathematical "approximations".... LOL
actual parameters are only incorporated later, usually with the help of an "operator" or two.

There is only one accurate form of mathematics, and that is algebra, arithmetic is a subset..... (and not many people understand arithmetic, LOL )

Point 2
Now for any set of data, there can be many interpretations or models..... and every model/interpretation is correct, if it satisfies all parameters.

From the history of science it becomes obvious that any model we put forward, will in time be modified, so in effect the science at any one time will never be "the truth".

Unfortunately net-posters believe in ONE model, and all the rest just don't exist.

Even though this preferred model is incorrect (by definition), investigation of alternatives is stymied by protectionism.

There is one thing human beings have observed and that is
When playing mind games, the model can be water- tight in your head, BUT in reality there is always a surprise in store... it always leaks

nothing ever is as your mind first/second/third.... conceived it.

Exploring models via words is yet another major limitation, and posters should be aware, that words seldom convey exactly the author's intent..... that is why "discussion" is embarked upon. Do try it blink.gif

Tis nice to communicate rather than deploy shields.

biggrin.gif
yor_on
Hi
Ah GoodElf :)
Get well quickly, we're not finished here yet, ya'hear :)

You write " It is no longer certain that an object falling into a black hole will hit the singularity for many billions of years. This is like what we see in our Universe and it's resident black holes. Perhaps whole galaxies can "fall" into a massive black hole and not experience any undue forces "

That's what i was wondering about.
The string theory you linked to does not mention this at all as far I could find?
It only discussed 'information' and its highly theoretical possible retrieval from black holes.

As far as I'm concerned if something wanders over the event horizon it will go in to the 'core'. But then again I've been away a little while so maybe I'm wrong?

The first question I think I got though.
Thanks for your answer.
Over to Zarkov and out.
Zarkov
yes get well good Elf...

QUOTE
Over to Zarkov and out.


I am a classical cosmologist... I find Newton's work EXTREMELY intelligent
even NASA uses Newtonian formulations.

I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.

SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force, black holes, white holes, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh

I find all the answers in ESGT, however this work is rather primitive and could be expanded quite considerably, especially in the field of anti-gravity.

Sir Walter Ritz, outlined a reasonable electrodynamic first-effort but fell well short of reality.

nice chatting wink.gif
PIATLAS
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 13 2008, 07:00 AM)
yes get well good Elf...




I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.

SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force,WHITE HOLES, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh

I find all the answers in ESGT, however this work is rather primitive and could be expanded quite considerably, especially in the field of anti-gravity.

Sir Walter Ritz, outlined a reasonable electrodynamic first-effort but fell well short of reality.

nice chatting  wink.gif



[B]PINK holes
not white holes. ZARKOFF as usual your being sarc-as-tic.
Good Elf
Hi Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Username, JoelM, Trippy, Atrus, Capracus et al,

Thanks for your good wishes ... I am getting better already.

QUOTE (Zarkov+)
Thoughts on your thoughts.......
When cosmic theory has to be explained in anthropomorphic terms IMO it becomes "tainted" with our logic.
Logic is great fun, but modeling reality is really the name of the game.
Cosmic relations just are,... with or without an observer, and as such the only players on stage should be the actors of the cosmos portrayed by their various parameters (which we determine by actual measurement).

Dr E thought human observers were/are the focus of interest..... however such an approach has led cosmology astray, IMO.

You should note that Newton never fell into this trap.
Physics is a science that does not need human input, because it is a study of the "consequences of natural action".
You are right about everything that we have theories about is really an anthropocentric view of the Universe regardless of how much we try. This is "natural" since we are the ones trying to make some sense out of it. But I also agree that because of Kurt Gödel and his Incompleteness Theorems it is impossible to ever escape from our own mindsets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del...eteness_theorem
Every theory we make is based on assumptions derived from some pre-existing theory about existence and being. This means that we can never know "The Mind of G*d". Actually I think that when our Universe was "born" there really was no "Mind of G*d"... slowly sentience is evolving and if that sentience becomes truly evolved it can reinvent itself and know it's own beginnings. I would say the first "mind" to do this will probably not be "human".
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
From the history of science it becomes obvious that any model we put forward, will in time be modified, so in effect the science at any one time will never be "the truth".

This is "good"... If we are always shining an experimental light on what we know is true (the Universe around us does not lie when we ask questions) we can certainly know what is false when it isn't disagreement with that "truth". It is necessary for man to always seek more. Gödel ensured that there will never be any rest for man... if he survives. If he does not survive then someone else will find the truth instead. The Universe has not put all her eggs in one basket... like mankind...

Still the worship of '"G*ds" is just another of those delusions mankind thinks he is so knowledgeable about. I would highly dispute we know anything about "g*ds" at all. The pursuit of "ultimate knowledge" is a pursuit for madness and we will only achieve such a goal through total insanity. I think that is why poor Kurt was mad too. I suggest many humans have found true success in that pursuit already... some of them even claim they are the g*ds themselves... For them society should provide the public services sector with very large butterfly nets and collect all the "specimens" loose on our streets. Many of them will be found in religious institutions already convinced they know "everything" necessary for you and are prepared to enforce it if you allow them the opportunity. rolleyes.gif Scientists are also not 'immune" to madness, and aside from Kurt Gödel himself check out "A Beautiful Mind" at your video shop to tell the story of John Nash. A very brilliant mind indeed... but unfortunately crazy. Maybe true greatness requires the sacrifice of sanity. That "path" then, is for "others" to tread. tongue.gif A careful examination of most of these and many other sane and insane individuals is an underlying hubris which is endemic to our species. I guess the only difference is the degree of madness expressed tailored by the degree of hubris. Still... everyone "needs" a little pride otehrwise you will never achieve anything... a passion. Our society is replete with Scientific, Religious, Political and Military Berserkers... Do not be "one of them"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
Many scientists went mad in their quest for knowledge. Even Newton was consumed more in his search for Alchemical Truth than he was with his pursuit for Scientific Truth (and I entirely agree that his was the finest mind our species has ever produced). Along with Principia were his secret writings on Alchemistry and Hermetical Tomes and his personal quest for the Philosopher's Stone, obviously "less published" today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophiae_...pia_Mathematica

We "could" take the view that we are some kind of "dispassionate independent witness" to what is happening around us "OR" we can accept our destiny as humans trapped in time and space searching for some kind of "meaning"? My view is that many scientists think they are above humanity and are seeing the Universe independently of our senses. I totally disagree. The interpretation of science as I see it in in the hands of man himself. If it is abstract and steeped in gobbledygook then you can understand where that is coming from... a sense of self importance and a lack of concern for the interpretation. We are a product of the environment we live in and we cannot escape from that. What I do think about this quandary is while we are products of our Universe we are the "special bit" of it that has evolved in an attempt to make some sense about it all. We are the "gestalt" of the Universe and it's quest to know itself for we are part of that Universe, part of the created "star stuff". The very atoms in our body are "entangled" with the hearts of the long dead stars that were scattered across the heavens from which they came ... billions of years ago. It is our "job"... If not us then who? This is the real "Grail" for mankind.

Whom Does the Grail Serve? It serves the one who serves.

Cheers
Zarkov
Again Good Elf, you astound me with your insights and knowledge.


QUOTE
The pursuit of "ultimate knowledge" is a pursuit for madness and we will only achieve such a goal through total insanity.


It is a madness to even have an interest in things philosophical or scientific

most people prefer being entertained rolleyes.gif

I have researched madness to some depth, and I expect you are referring to the second kind.

The first kind is behaviour displayed through neurological damage, usually brought on by the effects of accumulated toxic substances.

The second kind of madness is passion, unbridled passion for intellectual pursuits, and yes then the fine line gets finer.... LOL

HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.

Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.

Eddington (a manipulative fraud)
"" “Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.”"

LOL, with these words cosmology fell apart IMO


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The pursuit of "ultimate knowledge" is a pursuit for madness and we will only achieve such a goal through total insanity.


It is a madness to even have an interest in things philosophical or scientific

most people prefer being entertained rolleyes.gif

I have researched madness to some depth, and I expect you are referring to the second kind.

The first kind is behaviour displayed through neurological damage, usually brought on by the effects of accumulated toxic substances.

The second kind of madness is passion, unbridled passion for intellectual pursuits, and yes then the fine line gets finer.... LOL

HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.

Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.

Eddington (a manipulative fraud)
"" “Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.”"

LOL, with these words cosmology fell apart IMO


The interpretation of science as I see it is in the hands of man himself. If it is abstract and steeped in gobbledygook then you can understand where that is coming from... a sense of self importance and a lack of concern for the interpretation.


I have tried to address this aspect in Scientific Skepticism
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20468

It seems many community members are
unaware that a theory is just an explanation, a word picture of observed facts, and of course there can be many interpretations.

To argue a point is fine in science but to demand rigid adherence is typically lay

Unfortunately lay slander and off topic posts destroy a communication, just as it destroys a reader's enjoyment by totally shredding meaning.

I seem to have attracted a lot of lay "wanna-bees", LOL



QUOTE
everything that we have theories about is really an anthropocentric view of the Universe regardless of how much we try.


yes, however a realisation that I have come to, is that we can step outside the human centric view. Even though we use human concepts in analysis, eg time, "mass", measurement, angle, geometry etc
these tools can be used to arrive at "values" where all pretense to know quantitatively can be dropped and the "values generated through human processing" then become arbitrary unit-less indicators of greater unknowns.

Ultimately the final analysis should yield parameters that are free of human conceived units, IMO

nice chatting biggrin.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I seem to have attracted a lot of lay "wanna-bees", LOL


And who are these wannabe's? Because I highly doubt anyone would want to be a complete wacko nutter like you.
adoucette
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 14 2008, 04:35 AM)
HOWEVER the absolute reality is our jailer and it is never far away. Unfortunately in cosmology, the Universe is further away than just arm's length and many "interpretations" exist that are drawn from the imaginings of a very small (in-house and peer-review protected) few. The high priesthood is becoming totally steeped in unfathomable gobbledygook which effectively prevents scrutiny by any other than the high priests.

Mathematics is shrouded in operators, which (almost always) hide assumptions and approximations etc, which of course yield the prescribed results. Reality is often barred from these meetings... even rationality is shown the back door.


You can't claim you are right simply by claiming the others are wrong.

They might be, but that still doesn't make you right and so far you have yet to show anything anywhere near a theory, let alone a proof of that theory.

Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.

I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.

Arthur
Trippy
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 16 2008, 02:25 AM)
You can't claim you are right simply by claiming the others are wrong.

They might be, but that still doesn't make you right and so far you have yet to show anything anywhere near a theory, let alone a proof of that theory.

Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.

I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.

Arthur

Well he is Dr. Hans Zarkov.

(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).
Sapo
QUOTE (Trippy+Mar 15 2008, 04:04 PM)
Well he is Dr. Hans Zarkov.

(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).

Hah! I had to Google it. Apparently, I am not old enough, either. That's nice, in its own little way... laugh.gif
Zarkov
QUOTE
I've got news for you Zarkov, you are madder than you think.


algebra does not lie.

In an insane world to be really sane dooms you to be treated as insane by all others.

Tis a shame you can not discuss your problems about my science..... real science does rise way above "any analysis by human beings"

LOL
adoucette
QUOTE (Trippy+Mar 15 2008, 04:04 PM)
Well he is Dr. Hans Zarkov.

(Please get this reference Arthur, no offense, but I know your old enough, and nobody else here as gotten it - or at least commented on it).

You don't even have to be that old.

http://www.scifi.com/flashgordon/cast/zarkov/index.html

laugh.gif

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Zarkov+Mar 15 2008, 05:08 PM)
Tis a shame you can not discuss your problems about my science

Oh horse pucky.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=314629

You're "science" amounts to a pile of nothing.

You have posted nothing to support any of your grand statements

And most of your posts are pointless rants about how we are "all gonna die" because of a friggin film of oil on the oceans, or your frequent lament about how you are right and the rest of the world is insane

All without a shred of proof.

And when PRESSED for proof, what do you do?

You run away and hide on another thread.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=320374

Shoo, you are just a fraud whose only apparent purpose is to get people to read your site.

Ain't gonna happen 'cause you got no bait on your hook.

Arthur
Sapo
But his name doesn't anagram in English. That might be good for something?
Zarkov
Thread trashed by vermin.
Good Elf
Hi adoucette, Zarkov, yor_on, Trippy, The Doc, Sapo Username, JoelM, Atrus, Capracus et al,

This is not a personal criticism but the arguments of this forum often pivot around personalities. I would remind everyone that our ego's are often a real problem in trying to understand other points of view. Other points of view do matter and scientific debate could not last without it. I speak on my behalf (in self interest) as well as on behalf of others with similar interests in this matter. You don't need to be "altruistic"... but it can help raise the tone of discussion. The idea of a "trickle down information source" is a similar one to "trickle down economies" where the ones on top "urinate" on those below with much laughter... well it is not amusing to me and it is bad science.
QUOTE (adoucette+)
Complaints about peer review and mathematics really makes me wonder about your abilities and also gives a pretty good idea of why you embrace Newton and shun Relativity and also why you are so certain that NASA never landed men on the moon.
The "embracing of Newton and shunning of Einstein" is not "madness", it may be unorthodox but it should not be used as a stick to beat people with intellectually. There are few individuals in all of human history that can claim a track record of such breadth and depth as Newton. Compare yourself and anyone else in history and then with him and you will find all the others do not even come close to the enormous leap in understanding he brought to mankind. He alone is responsible for the modern version of Dynamics, the motion of bodies, harmonic motion, Optics, Calculus, Gravitation, the first accounts of the principle of momentum and angular momentum, the Binomial Theorem, Newtons Methods of Approximation, the examination of spectra and the discreteness of the frequencies of light (many of these ideas were so revolutionary in their time Newton did not even provide names for them... such was the primitive state of Science). He invented the reflecting (Newtonian) Telescope the principle for which all large modern optical instruments of any significance utilize. The works of Pincipia and Optiks alone make him the acknowledged most influential Scientist and Mathematician in human history. As role models and as sources of inspiration you can choose none better. I would also say that we have not abandoned Newton we have built on him and the way he saw the Universe. He "invented" the language of science when there were no others of equal statue to take the lead. There may also be a darker side to this "light" and I think Newton in some of his lesser moments plumbed some of those "recesses" of the mind. But we should not judge the "ocean" by a single wave.

QUOTE (Wikipedia: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica+)
However, the concept of an attractive force acting at a distance received a cooler response. In his notes, Newton wrote that the inverse square law arose naturally due to the structure of matter. However, he retracted this sentence in the published version, where he stated that the motion of planets is consistent with an inverse square law, but refused to speculate on the origin of the law. Huygens and Leibniz noted that the law was incompatible with the notion of the aether. From a Cartesian point of view, therefore, this was a faulty theory. Newton's defence has been adopted since by many famous physicists — he pointed out that the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data, and he refused to speculate further on the basic nature of gravity. The sheer number of phenomena that could be organized by the theory was so impressive that younger "philosophers" soon adopted the methods and language of the Principia.
Here we see that Newton led by his powerful intellect refused to accept that the Aether was a primary concern... at least publicly... what was of concern to him was the incorporation of the known experimental data rather than rote acceptance of a scientific tradition which had a deference to an existing philosophy of Aristotle. The problem "of what Gravity is" remains a question to this very day and I can confidently say that humans have not arrived at a full comprehension for it's resolution yet. This problem of the origin of gravity still worried Newton... as it should have... It still worries us to this very day. I have my theories and so do many others on this forum, what I am convinced of is the status quo is not a convincing answer to this problem. People who defend the status quo take an easy course of action and this leads to a "mob mentality" demonstrated on this Forum at times. There is nothing to be gained from it.

I tend to Einstein's view more than any other single view but it is not enough. I have a great deal of respect for his Special Theory of Relativity but I think the General Theory of Relativity is not as compelling. As Einstein searched for a Unified Field Theory in his later years we should all be searching for the same resolution based on the existing current experimental data. Not a mindless following of his technique but clearly his methods were IMHO the best of their kind and capable of possible success. Because nobody believed him in his life's work at the scientific level and because of his public status as a celebrity he was thwarted. I note this is not the consensus opinion of much of the Scientific Community today where Loop Quantum Gravity, various Quantum Gravity and String Theory schemes all fail miserably in a basic test of answering the right experimental questions. Sloppy "questions" and poor intellectual analysis leads to chaos in interpretation of science and what we have today is an elite led "magic act" with Mathematicians in the guise of Physicists as professionally paid "Sorcerers". Many of them are mostly in direct disagreement with current experimental science, yet these mathematical theoreticians spend many non-productive years persisting with such hubris and at the same time poking fun and ridiculing others with dissimilar notions.

This could well be a useful instruction to men and women of science today. Too many "lesser minds" have driven the debate "every which way but loose" and they have all forgotten that a consensus is not necessarily required for scientific Truth if that "consensus" is in opposition to the experimental facts. Science decided by committee is not science but politics. Everyone knows committees either in government, scientific forums or in your local church halls never pick "what is right" but always decide on the lowest common denominator which represents the collective ego's of all the "feeble minds" drawn there that pick on the most mutually politically advantageous and economically prosperous outcome. Science is of secondary concern. In science this is the "shut up and calculate" method of silencing all the naysayers... the tall poppy syndrome. The reasons provided by these individuals in their ivory towers is that only they and their committees have any access to truth and all other "voices" should be relegated to to the role of simple "calculators". I remind everyone of Newton's "humble beginnings"... Well the word is out... calculators are a couple of bucks each available from a corner store... What is now the purpose of all these Physicists? The Internet is replete with "calculators" for almost any problem you can think of. How did so few physicists become such great authorities in a debate which is not yet decided publicly? Why is Mathematics placed in such high esteem if the physics is almost ignored? Do all these new age mathematicians all graduate with Philosophy or Theology Degrees? It appears clear to me that religion and politics have had controlling input into this debate to the extent that men's minds are clouded by their own hubris and it is no longer Newton alone that is being driven mad but the entire human race. What do people want... a relative uneasy truth or an outright lie? It appears "the lie" is what is required and ridicule is the way to maintain it. Yet I hold that only logic and science tempered by the results of careful experiment can solve this impasse through addressing the physical Universe directly. This means that "Physicists" need to wire a few things up in the Lab to see that the Universe actually works and it is not a "construct" of their over fertilized minds. The secrets that the Universe still holds will only yield by asking the most deeply penetrating questions "at a workbench". Theories that hide their origins below the Planck Length are "Religions" and not the result of an "Experimental Science".

The basis of Principia's exposition is not as well founded as is with Einstein's Theories today. To me Special Relativity at least is as simple if not simpler than any other "modern" theory that can be taught. But I see a terrible "stuff up" in the teaching profession and with academia in trying to pass these ideas on to students. I am convinced they are not so much interested in the understanding being "transferred" but in the "due process" and "formality" showing how cleverly the ideas can be put in an inscrutable way to the unwashed. Publishing these results is also "covert" in the way that the Journals do not openly make their information available to all. The scientists secretly agree to keep all this "in house" because more people may actually see what rubbish is being passed off as scholarly research. The public will finally realize that this "stuff" is simply churned out and put on a scales to evaluate the output of a lifetime. As far as I am concerned one paper such as Einstein's Special Theory or Newton's Principia is enough to credit a useful life. IMHO quantity does not displace quality. I would remind all that Einstein's Revolutionary Paper on Special Relativity was not a scholarly work in Mathematics. In fact he did not "discover" anything of any mathematical consequence at all. His paper was about "Physics".

Newton did not have any significant data to work with that could be relied on. This is not his fault. For instance he assumed the speed of light was 210 thousand K/s and using the measurements available in the middle of the 17th Century it could well have been since many science authorities still felt that the speed of light may be infinite. A lot of other data were in error but just such margins. I am pretty sure that given the additional data from experiment available to everyone today, better computing instruments, and given good health and the lack of distraction of concerns of an alchemical nature, he would certainly have arrived at most of the Physics we hold as true and significantly improved on it. Not only that he was of exceedingly humble origins... his parents were feudal farmers whose duty was to fight for the king... A little above a serf. When he said things in Science people listened and they did that only because he was usually right. Among all things Newton was a great believer in experimental physics... He could not claim the King's authority, he was of humble birth. This is where modern theorists fail by thinking "far too small and conservatively" with an eye to their stipends, tenure and position in the "pecking order". In that respect I agree with Zarkov while disagreeing with his evaluation of the works of Einstein (whom I hold in the very highest regard). This is not to say that Einstein was right in everything but I think Einstein was right in many things we no longer give him any credit for. In the same way Newton was also such a person... a man of his times.

Newton was also the first to espouse and publish a concept which every scientist should now aspire... "I feign no hypotheses" which is a departure from the Aristotelian concept of natural philosophy. This is not what modern science is about any more. What Newton was trying to say is make sure your theory is experimentally correct before worrying about how it fits with the classicists and other previous authorities. We have Occam's Razor which states that among an equally provable theories the simplest theory is usually the correct one. Unfortunately the human mind is not capable of knowing "all" possible equally acceptable and provable theories and because of hubris will not accept that other theories are of equal standing can only comprehend the simplest one that they know as being the best.

This concept was put recently by Micheu Kaku regarding Einstein's General Theory of Relativity being made into a "slogan" and placed on the front of T-shirts because of it's "intrinsic beauty". My view is this is a pretty stupid idea because there is no reason to accept that this theory in it's "simple" form has the ability to solve any realistic problems at all. It is of greater Mathematical Interest as an icon than it is of Scientific Interest simply because it is only "beautiful". I disagree... what is "beautiful" must be in the eye of the beholder and what the Universe "does" is beautiful and simpler than any Tensor Field theory equation "emblazoned" on the front of an "unthinking" mathematician's chest. You may as well throw in a couple of verses from the bible as well ... only the short quotes qualify... sound bytes. I can think of some Communist and Commercial advertising slogans which are more popular why not put them there too as many do. Better still... tattoo them on your forehead.

It is not that Newton was "wrong" in anything he had said but according to the limited science of the time he was "dead on target". Yet most of the society of his time did not take his hubris too well. They criticized him for his lack of diligence and deference to authorities that had come before. The relationship between Halley and Newton is a model of scientific behavior but the relationship between Hooke and Newton show also to what depths of hatred and spite great minds can fall into to. Another "bad report" of Newton regards Leibniz and his comparable but separate discovery of Calculus, Newton did not attempt to see and recognize the works of others and this may be due in part to Newton's reported Autism and lack of people skills or perhaps in later life his growing religious fervor and "madness". It is well to understand that that it is important to give due recognition of all those who have assisted and helped in all respects or have strived alone... Otherwise hubris can overcome the solitary mind and lead into madness and error. Everyone understands that Newton's Laws have some shortcomings but they are able to be remedied. All subsequent developments including Einstein's Theories and Quantum Mechanics are based on the insight that Newton provided to many previous generations of scientists and have been refined "marginally" since his day. Einstein is a true Genius and my favorite among all scientists but Newton was the greatest because his insights took us from the "Stone Age" of "tinkering" with science and experiments to a world of "Order" in which a way could be seen forward. As a person he was "aloof", distant and dismissive... not a nice person... but who really cares. We need to look past those limitations. His was the "stepping stone" of history that launched the "Enlightenment" that gave rise to the very minds that eventually signed the Declaration of Independence and in which the rights of all men were made sovereign (not just in America) and consequently led to the questioning of the enslavement others (everywhere). It had nothing much at all to do with the churches or good government, in fact it was a breakdown in government and church authority that precipitated it. Newton's legacy cannot be underestimated or delimited and it exceeded two thousand years and more of religious and political fervor and persecution supplanting them with free minds and opportunity that still echoes to this day... But one single stupid generation can take that all away. Newton probably never thought for a moment what he had started and relentlessly initiated .... he lit the fuse that would destroy the past and prepare us for a new tomorrow. Not bad for a crazy person.

As Zarkov has stated Newtons Laws (with some minor adjustments) are still used to steer the course to the planets and land men on the moon (I have not read about Zarkov's input into that debate... obviously I do not want to enter into that discussion.. It is a 'done deal" and a great achievement). What matters now is the future... nothing lasts forever as history has shown... and any accolade of the past will become jeering and stoning as the once feted end up on the guillotine. Science is not a series of equal steps towards goals... like Evolution... the steps occasionally are huge and unprecedented towards some new and unknown frontier. That was Newton and it is foolish to not see what what mighty deeds he has wrought... even if he did not see them himself.

Cheers
barakn
Are you talking about the same Zarkov that I've encountered? The Zarkov I know doesn't believe in Newtonian gravity or even Newtonian momentum.
Good Elf
Hi barakn et al,

QUOTE (barakn+)
Are you talking about the same Zarkov that I've encountered? The Zarkov I know doesn't believe in Newtonian gravity or even Newtonian momentum.
No... I am speaking about Newton and I am asking that we all consider our personal behavior first and let people have a "rant" if they want to without the abuse.

Cheers

PS: I am no "pillar of the community" either but I can understand the problem of getting a place to have a point of view expressed without "Big Brother" staring over our shoulder. Luckily I wear my tin foil hat under my tasseled beanie just for protection.
adoucette
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 15 2008, 09:23 PM)
As Zarkov has stated Newtons Laws (with some minor adjustments) are still used to steer the course to the planets and land men on the moon

Thanks for taking my quote out of context.

Zarkov does not believe Newton's laws were used to land men on the moon.

Because

Zarkov Doesn't believe we HAVE landed men on the moon.

Arthur

Zarkov
First, ESGT is heavily Newtonian. I have just built a castle on top... without Newton, then no cosmology!

Read Good Elf's magnificent essay again... Newton did not believe in "attraction at a distance"
nor do I.

Gravity pushes, not "pulls"... nothing can "pull". Unfortunately for Newton, no "experimentally verified" mechanism was known to science at that time.
If electrodynamics was known then..... no Dr E.


QUOTE
I have a great deal of respect for his Special Theory of Relativity


so do I, it is there that electrodynamic theory came of age. Dr E unfortunately re-wrote "Newtonian attraction" and wet the rubber sheet ! LOL

Walter Ritz, did a wonderful job as well.

Both failed at explaining gravity and therefore the cosmos however, (opinion drawn from analysis.)

Good Elf, may I place your dissertation on my web site.... I shall remove any reference to extraneous topics, such as "Zarkov"

That was such a stimulating read Good Elf ! wink.gif

and was a very very fitting end to this thread biggrin.gif
Good Elf
Hi adoucette, Zarkov, yor_on, Trippy, The Doc, Sapo Username, JoelM, Atrus, Capracus et al,

QUOTE (adoucette+)
Thanks for taking my quote out of context. Zarkov does not believe Newton's laws were used to land men on the moon. Because Zarkov Doesn't believe we HAVE landed men on the moon.

Arthur

Welcome to the club. I am responding to what he actually said on his thread...
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
I am a classical cosmologist... I find Newton's work EXTREMELY intelligent... even NASA uses Newtonian formulations.

I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.

SO, I do not deal in mass, attraction as a propagation of force, black holes, white holes, expansion, time of any sort, neutron stars and such fantasy that flows from Dr E's work.
So much of modern cosmology just makes me laugh
He had a good word there about Newton... It is uncommon nowadays to think of Newton and to his place in our culture. I think he is of exceedingly great importance for the very things I have said in my previous post.

Like I said it is not good to punish people with science... it is not the intention... It is after all Zarkov's thread. We do not need to respond. What you said was very little along the science line and pretty long on punishment. From what you are saying there you are laying it on thick because of his environmental concerns. Science is meant to liberate the mind not shackle it. What others do with science is not my specific concern but I need to feel that we are all trying to encourage people everywhere to a greater understanding of our Universe. It is my belief that "good science" makes "good people"... conversely "bad science" makes "bad people" and leads to a general disillusionment with it. General enlightenment can't be had with wars or arguments or through vilification though this seems to be an example more honored in the breach than the observance... The world is thrust into turmoil because of the inability to handle emotional issues. It is clear though that there are some who think general conflict is "fun". Science needs nothing other than the demonstration of it's efficacy to show anyone its potential benefits or to see the way in which people put it to use to be able to judge them morally. This argument is something which is harming us all and brings science itself into disrepute seeing those who say they endorse it being so combative. You have a great mind adoucette and you could better use it in assisting rather than punishing others. IMHO If people do not listen it is best to simply just leave them or encourage them to see your point of view through constructive discussion.

Zarkov... He he he... It was not intended that I should be endorsing what you are saying in general... I agreed with what you said about Newton above. I think science is a "broad church" but it is not so broad that I would embrace any theory that could not be proven. What I mean by proven you would agree that it is only a relative Truth in that experiment and applications support it to the hilt. In the case of Special and General Relativity you can buy a GPS unit for a couple of hundred dollars in which about a dozen different relativistic corrections are required for every observation to keep your "global position" from wandering randomly about by up to 10 Kms per day.

What I am doing was endorsing the right for you to say it and feel free to criticize any institutions you see fit. This is because Newton, while being such a truly great man and at the same time so very deeply insightful, is able to teach us all about the real nature of knowledge and the way in which we can all fail. Newton failed in some ways too and he was not somebody everyone would like but fate chose him not you or I. Great wisdom must be tempered with an ability to readily learn. None of us are naturally great sources of wisdom. It is also not about gaining an accolade from others either, to be right does not mean that others will be able to recognize it or even want to recognize it. You may need to live with that point as do many others. Each of us has some ability to understand and we can either reach our full potential and learn as much as we are physically capable of or we can seriously "underachieve" through our own ego's getting in the way. IMHO Newton dissipated his ability in later life in endless studies and experiments in Alchemy which achieved nothing. Newton actually thought that he was making great progress toward the ultimate knowledge of the Philosopher's Stone while in that pursuit. The truth is he fell into the very trap that the ancients had prepared for him and his own hubris probably reduced him to a mental wreck.

This did not stop him becoming the most important mind ever to evolve from the human gene pool. As I have explained he "became" more than his fallible parts. Man wants to wield the power of the Universe but in the end it is the Universe itself that wields man to achieve it's own inscrutable goals. IMHO Newton, despite himself, became the most important figure in history (... no priest or politician will ever admit that... mark my words).

Cheers

PS: You can quote me if you like but you need to retain the context of this thread or at least refer others to it please. It is "bad science" to quote out of context. As to a "fitting end" to this thread... only time will tell.
QUOTE (Zarkov+)
Read Good Elf's magnificent essay again... Newton did not believe in "attraction at a distance"

nor do I.
I don't recall mentioning anything about "action at a distance" but I do know that spacetime is curved at a distance. Some aspects of General Relativity and their effect on GPS can detect an action on spacetime curvature in Earth Orbit due to the relative motion of the distant planets.
Zarkov
QUOTE
I don't recall mentioning anything about "action at a distance"


you didn't... sorry
you stated

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I don't recall mentioning anything about "action at a distance"


you didn't... sorry
you stated

This problem of the origin of gravity still worried Newton...


but your Wiki quote stated
QUOTE
However, the concept of an attractive force acting at a distance received a cooler response. In his notes, Newton wrote that the inverse square law arose naturally due to the structure of matter. However, he retracted this sentence in the published version, where he stated that the motion of planets is consistent with an inverse square law, but refused to speculate on the origin of the law. Huygens and Leibniz noted that the law was incompatible with the notion of the aether. From a Cartesian point of view, therefore, this was a faulty theory. Newton's defence has been adopted since by many famous physicists — he pointed out that the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data, and he refused to speculate further on the basic nature of gravity.


and sorry, this brought "action at a distance" to mind. This misunderstanding is the now assumed mechanism (Newton shunned the concept) for the propagation of Newtonian gravity. He only referred to it because there was no known mechanism to account for the observations..... it was wrong, but ?convenient?

Even Dr E employed a surrogate in "mass curves space time"... err at a distance !
LOL blink.gif
so there has been no progress in gravity. Strange physicists back then had problems with action at a distance, physicists today embrace such a philosophically illogical concept with open arms blink.gif blink.gif



But it is funny how science plays out

I now believe from mathematical evidence, and very recent satellite observations that Rene Descartes was very close to the truth re the structure of the Universe.



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
However, the concept of an attractive force acting at a distance received a cooler response. In his notes, Newton wrote that the inverse square law arose naturally due to the structure of matter. However, he retracted this sentence in the published version, where he stated that the motion of planets is consistent with an inverse square law, but refused to speculate on the origin of the law. Huygens and Leibniz noted that the law was incompatible with the notion of the aether. From a Cartesian point of view, therefore, this was a faulty theory. Newton's defence has been adopted since by many famous physicists — he pointed out that the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data, and he refused to speculate further on the basic nature of gravity.


and sorry, this brought "action at a distance" to mind. This misunderstanding is the now assumed mechanism (Newton shunned the concept) for the propagation of Newtonian gravity. He only referred to it because there was no known mechanism to account for the observations..... it was wrong, but ?convenient?

Even Dr E employed a surrogate in "mass curves space time"... err at a distance !
LOL blink.gif
so there has been no progress in gravity. Strange physicists back then had problems with action at a distance, physicists today embrace such a philosophically illogical concept with open arms blink.gif blink.gif



But it is funny how science plays out

I now believe from mathematical evidence, and very recent satellite observations that Rene Descartes was very close to the truth re the structure of the Universe.



* the mathematical form of the theory had to be correct since it explained the data


yes, there is no fantasy there !, or here (Electrodynamic Spin Gravity Theory)



QUOTE
Some aspects of General Relativity and their effect on GPS can detect an action on spacetime curvature in Earth Orbit due to the relative motion of the distant planets.


spacetime curvature..... LOL, what a word ohmy.gif ... remove that and insert field spin and I might agree.

IMO space is just space, while time does not exist (except mentally for creatures that can act),

but in my world space is full of anisotropic differentially driven energy fields (much like cogs in a gearbox), and these mediate everything cosmic, including so called "gravity"

That's my take for reasons so well described above by Newton *

It really is very pleasant to have some meaningful exchanges in science.

I must admit this could well be the first time in at least 8 years of being a hated net-scientist for telling it as experimental evidence sees it, rather than surface skimming and cherry picking.

Good Elf you and I agree on many thing, but definitely not all (that's the nature of the scientific investigation).... and believe me I take all comments in an impersonal way..... and unless I am addressed directly, I do not assume I am the focus of any comment.
smile.gif
Good Elf
Hi Zarkov,

I do not believe in "action at a distance" either in the strict sense of the meaning. What I was just illustrating is probably the truth about how mass actually extends away from a source. It is not easy to capture an idea like that. I would not say it here if I did not read it in the literature. Action at a distance is not one of Einstein's ideas at all in fact as stated by Einstein mass is a purely local phenomenon in which mass curves spacetime and spacetime tell the mass how to move. Why it is necessary to speak about "spacetime" as a single entity is simply a requirement to build all that "technical stuff" so it actually works because it is a mutual interaction. Time is not running exactly the same everywhere. It is just the way it is. But spin and Gravitation is definitely an important consideration that is normally not part of the vanilla flavored General Theory of Relativity. A quick check will show that there is already a glaring mistake or at least an incompleteness in Einstein's Theory of General Relativity because it leaves out torsion in spacetime due to "parallel transport". Clearly every atomic particle with mass is subject to a "Berry Phase" in the matter wave "field" (if we can call it that). Naturally Einstein would never have suspected the full ramifications of this. I do not want to begin a discussion of this matter here but check it out...
Wikipedia: Einstein–Cartan theory
The neutrality of the article in Wikipedia is disputed... A lot of reputations may be "tainted" if such a concept was adopted generally. What is not fully appreciated are the interactions of de Broglie Matter Wave interferences with light (I have had a lot to say about that recently). Certain types of optical photon packets are "self accelerating"... Check out truncated Airy Beams. These entities are very "interesting". They are related to optical vortices and to topological charge. The technical works of Prof. Sir Michael Berry and Dr. Taco Visser and their very open Homepages would be "enlightening". Recently such synthetic self accelerating beams have been made with all the properties nobody was expecting. as to Dr. Who... Check out the Ehrenfest Paradox... not the usual one in Wikipedia but this one...
QUOTE (Brian Keating+)
The Curvature of the Relativistic Rotating Disk
Brian Keating
Mentor: Dr. Teymour Darkhosh

1. Introduction
The case of a rigid disk rotating at relativistic speeds raises a number of interesting paradoxes and has long been plagued with misunderstandings. According to special relativity, measuring rods laid out along the rim of the disk will be Lorentz contracted according to the usual formula, but those laid out along the radius will not, as these are perpendicular to the (instantaneous) direction of motion. Thus, the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of the disk will no longer be pi. This paradox was first introduced in 1909 by Paul Ehrenfest, and is referred to as Ehrenfest’s paradox [1].

The Ehrenfest paradox was known to Einstein, and he actually used the case of a rotating disk in his seminal 1916 paper to introduce the necessity for non-Euclidian geometry in general relativity (GR) [2]. However, he never published a paper directly addressing the rotating disk. Other physicists, such as Strauss [3], argued that if the measuring rods were contracted, then so were the distances they were measuring, so the ratio C/D would still be pi. Another closely related difficulty which helps shed some light on possible resolution might be called the non-transitivity of synchronicity along the rim. For simplicity, let us represent the infinite number of instantaneously inertial frames on the edge of the disk by just four, K1, K2, K3 and K4 (see diagram):... [..]

http://www.smcm.edu/nsm/physics/SMP03S/KeatingB.doc.pdf
You will require an earlier version of Acrobat Reader than 8 to view this document. It is all in the interpretation and which experiment you find the most "fetching".

You are a gentleman and a scholar. It is a pity that it takes 8 years for anyone to realize it... he he he! Agreement does not need to be universal. It is important to have some naysayers to keep everyone on their toes. Not everyone agrees with me either. rolleyes.gif ... I have only been discussing some of the more standard concepts that are held in common by many others. I also harbor a few "heresies"... he he he!

Cheers
adoucette
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 16 2008, 04:54 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette)
QUOTE (adoucette+)
Thanks for taking my quote out of context. Zarkov does not believe Newton's laws were used to land men on the moon. Because Zarkov Doesn't believe we HAVE landed men on the moon.


Welcome to the club. I am responding to what he actually said on his thread...


Except Good Elf, that WAS in this thread.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=320137

We are NOT, as you describe here to, "urinate" on those below with much laughter"

Instead we have asked over and over (in this and other threads) for Zarkov to SUPPORT his views with SCIENCE and all we get is his same old BS answers with nary an explanation for anything except to call the rest of us DUMB, then proceed to dump on Eintsein, claim predictions he made years ago have been proved by the evidence, even though re shares neither the theory nor the predictions. Claimss that he has mathematical proof for his theory, yet has never (AFAIK) posted the simplest formula on this forum.

We have asked for SCIENTIFIC DEBATE and all we have got is BS and now we have you on the sidelines, not bothering to read the HISTORY of Zarkov, as his frigginn cheerleader.

If you cared about SCIENCE, you would demand that Zarkov at least ACT scientifically.

You see, if Zarkov posted that he believed this or that or the other and stated his LOGICAL REASONS for those beliefs, he would most certainly get a different response than when we get this (FYI, all from THIS thread)

QUOTE
no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.


we are in an age of deceit and madness


QUOTE
truth is the madness of the "peer reviewer". In this manner, Dr E had his bullshite accepted.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
truth is the madness of the "peer reviewer". In this manner, Dr E had his bullshite accepted.


I C all the bottom crawling low life have found the silk purse and are trying to turn it into a sow's ear by shi-ting all over it!


QUOTE
I predicted these changes in orbital characteristics from math calculations 5 years ago
note, have you seen these predictions? has anyone?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I predicted these changes in orbital characteristics from math calculations 5 years ago
note, have you seen these predictions? has anyone?

No doubt y'all still read your fairy stories, and still believe in footsteps on the Moon.


QUOTE
The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The Big Bang is an erroneous religion.


Is the Universe expanding as fast as the ignorance of most of the posters here ?


QUOTE
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The human race is an ignorant bunch of imbeciles, IMO, and the behaviour I view here on this forum (is just the same as anywhere else) verifies that the human race will soon disappear up its own orifices.


LOL, you guys will believe anything without further thought.... err, except the truth !
now that is a sign of a real idiot


QUOTE
Where are your list of predictions? .... or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin
(note, this from a guy who won't post a single prediction)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Where are your list of predictions? .... or are you as insane as the rest of the vermin
(note, this from a guy who won't post a single prediction)

LOL idiot!

Why do you discount truth given in good faith, when you offer nothing in return?
(note, from a guy who has yet to actually offer anything)

QUOTE
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.

(note: good luck finding any EXTENSION by Zarkov of Newton's work)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I have extended Newton's work and incorporated relatively recent understandings.

(note: good luck finding any EXTENSION by Zarkov of Newton's work)

I seem to have attracted a lot of lay "wanna-bees", LOL


So I ask you again, who is pissing on who?

And based on your previous post, you certainly have a strange idea of what makes up a "gentleman and a scholar"

Arthur
yor_on
GoodElf, you are a humanist Sir. It gives me great pleasure to read your thoughts. None of us are made perfect. We all strive to find something that will give our lives a better meaning and a clearer purpose. No matter where we stand, science should be a open debate not a closed one. and that principle you defend, I like that. So let's keep on, and have some fun. :)
Good Elf
Hi Arthur,

I understand your concern and I see you are upset by Zarkov's form of interaction but all of this may be a very big misunderstanding. Perhaps he has not got it together yet but it is really up to us collectively to ensure that he communicates with us effectively (and we with him). Seems to me Zarkov has been given the "my way or the highway" ultimatum. This is a Forum of ideas and we should be wondering what he is really on about. We don't have to read this you know! People can then make up their own minds. Perhaps they may reject the ideas but perhaps there may be some position behind it that has merit. His gravity theory sounds a lot like JC Maxwell's Original Idea as to how EM waves propagate. Either way mutual respect is very important for any form of discussion be it right or wrong. We are adults and we should not be offended by any "eccentricity" here.

I know he has some environmental concerns... In that respect we would be on the same side. I also know that you have some very definite contrary views on that as well. It may be these issues have colored his view of you and of others and surely this is a great opportunity to see what he has to say on other matters. I realize this has not gone too well in the past but things may get better eh?

Cheers
adoucette
Good Elf,

Why do you think the rest of us are here?

We didn't join this discussion forum to pick on Zarkov.

You would see, if you took the time to read some of his other threads, that we have asked Zarkov OVER AND OVER AND OVER to back up his claims.

To actually DISCUSS his theories.

But, even in the absense of him doing so, a number of us have provided POST after POST after POST with DATA and LINKS to supporting data and establisthed FACTS to show why he is mistaken.

What do we get for it in response?

We get BS like this (from the Did Man go to the Moon Thread - pg 16):

QUOTE (Zarkov+)
My formula is safe and I am not afraid to use it, but I refuse to share it
There is a whole theory behind the logic and as you can see, even showing very small portions in a place such as this
just leads to born again emotional idiots who think science is set in stone, and should be religiously true.


OR

See Here for an example of Zarkov's idea of a discussion:

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=314673

OR

We get called IDIOTS and IMBECILES.

We are accused of being DECEITFUL or believing in "erroneous religions" etc etc.

That long list I posted is from just ONE short Zarkov thread.

And no, Zarkov has been given NO such ultimatum. If you will notice his low "warning" level, its apparent that no one even bothers to turn him in for his childish behavior and name calling.

But, since his inappropriate behavior is escalating (the noise to signal ratio is already off the charts), that probably won't continue much longer.

Arthur
yor_on
Arthur?

This threads tone were set in the second and fourth post.
From there it went downhill.
Take a look.

Zarkow went into defense from the beginning here.
So he may have totally wacky ideas, as seen by those of us that believe that that there has been a moon landing.

But that might/seems to come as a result from his other views of our universe.
And forcing someone in defense by name calling, is no way to have a discussion.

And I'm not accusing you of starting anything here.
I'm just thinking that it's more fun to read when there are some humor to it.
Of the self including kind. There are to many elitist dreams here already.
adoucette
QUOTE (yor_on+Mar 16 2008, 10:48 AM)
This threads tone were set in the second and fourth post.
From there it went downhill.
Take a look.

No, it went downhill in the OPENING POST by Zarkov.

QUOTE (Zarkov+)
no one here has the knowledge to be able to question... y'all just take the delusions as truth.


Nor can you can't expect people to treat each thread as if it exists in a vacuum.

Zarkov has a long posting history, and for anyone to say that his well documented belief that THE REST OF US are IDIOTS for accepting the overwhelming evidence that we did in fact land on the moon, won't affect our view of him or his other posts is simply not in touch with human nature.

Arthur

yor_on
Hmm, well I stand corrected there.

It seems that i missed that paragraph of his.
And.. Whatever :)

So yeah, why not keep it on then
A self perpetrating circle of abuse

I don't know

Cheers
Yoron.
adoucette
Yoron,

We have TRIED to get Zarkov to actually support his ideas so they could be discussed.

Many times.

See here: http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=320374

Then see what happens.

Zarkov is the ONLY ONE who can stop this.

He could do so in his NEXT post.

Arthur
yor_on
Awhhh
I give up :)

Commence the fighting ::))

I do see your point Arthur.
As long as its done with humor it's ok by me (I hope?:)
Trippy
Good Elf: You're being horribly unfair to Arthur at the moment.

Zarkov has repeatedly displayed an inability to back up his claims, and an unwillingness to engage in reasonable debate.
TheDoc
QUOTE (yor_on+)
This threads tone were set in the second and fourth post.


What's the matter yor_on? Can't address me directly?

QUOTE
And forcing someone in defense by name calling, is no way to have a discussion.


Logic doesn't work. Citing references doesn't work. So what should we do then? Stand aside and allow him to spout his lies and paranoid delusions? Sorry. That may be your method, but it's not ours.

adoucette
Not to mention, those of us who visit other science boards have already run into Zarkov.

Zarkov rather proudly asserts as to how many times he has been banned.

But the reality is, you don't get banned from these forums for bad science, you get banned because of the way you interact with the other members and break forum rules.

http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration...html#post427318

For some of his ideas about the presense of H2O2 in space.

Or here

http://www.bautforum.com/against-mainstrea...tion-event.html

Where Zarkov claimed that the NASA Deep Impact would lead to an Extinction Event.

Of course that didn't happen.

So then he went back and edited his responses to turn the thread into gibberish (you can see his edits that he used to go back and delete his posts because when his post is quoted he couldn't delete the quoted part)

Arthur
yor_on
Well Doc I can address you if you like.

And I guess you know how I feel about McCarthy lookalikes :)
Or should it be wanna bees??

I guess you either is here under a alias or that you just like the safety by thy masters side?
As your nick is quite new.

And If you find your posts as being the new norm for this forum?
(Well, actually it seems to be:)
So what?

Satisfied?

Keep it on if you like.
But you guys will slowly kill anything fun and interesting on this forum.
As I said. There are very few of those that used to post here left.

All Cranks ::))
Right.

Your kind of 'alias' is easy to see through.
Have you posted one original thought about physics here?
And those nosing up your **
Impressive physics

Cheers
Yoron.
TheDoc
QUOTE (yor_on+)
Well Doc I can address you if you like.


Good.

QUOTE
I guess you either is here under a alias or that you just like the safety by thy masters side?


Oh really? So who's sockpuppet am I, eh?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I guess you either is here under a alias or that you just like the safety by thy masters side?


Oh really? So who's sockpuppet am I, eh?

Keep it on if you like.


Okay.

QUOTE
But you guys will slowly kill anything fun and interesting on this forum.


No, we will slowly kill anything we deem as delusional pseudoscientific junk. Delusional, lying, paranoid, wacko ramblings of a psychotic nature. Zarkov's posts fit the bill.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
But you guys will slowly kill anything fun and interesting on this forum.


No, we will slowly kill anything we deem as delusional pseudoscientific junk. Delusional, lying, paranoid, wacko ramblings of a psychotic nature. Zarkov's posts fit the bill.

Impressive physics


The "physics" posted by the likes of Zarkov, amrit and Farsight aren't physics. The stuff posted by AlphaNumeric, Trout and Euler DO qualify as physics, because the those people actually LEARNED something. As in, "I actually learned something", not "I skimmed an article on Wikipedia".
yor_on
Sorry but i don't believe it.
This has been going on for what? six moths?

The only thing happening is that the more moderate thinkers seems to have disappeared.

What you have left are those that truly love this place, like GoodElf for example and those that belive the 'witch hunt' to be effective.
And the people you can't get rid of :)
And I won't mention or even try to guess whom you might consider them to be ::))

I'm not saying that there isn't ideas here that I just don't understand :)
Some of them to advanced perhaps, others i find plain st**

But I'm here to have fun, not win the Nobel prize.
And I don't mind some wired out ideas, I can always change thread.

And when people put so much energy in being cyber police the fun goes splash right into the wall.
'Did that hurt baby?' 'Nah, the cyber police knows what's best for me.'

Celebrating your right to free speech by ganging up on others just doesn't make sense to me.
Trippy
QUOTE (yor_on+Mar 17 2008, 11:18 AM)
Sorry but i don't believe it.
This has been going on for what? six moths?

The only thing happening is that the more moderate thinkers seems to have disappeared.

What you have left are those that truly love this place, like GoodElf for example and those that belive the 'witch hunt' to be effective.
And the people you can't get rid of smile.gif
And I won't mention or even try to guess whom you might consider them to be :smile.gif)

I'm not saying that there isn't ideas here that I just don't understand smile.gif
Some of them to advanced perhaps, others i find plain st**

But I'm here to have fun, not win the Nobel prize.
And I don't mind some wired out ideas, I can always change thread.

And when people put so much energy in being cyber police the fun goes splash right into the wall.
'Did that hurt baby?' 'Nah, the cyber police knows what's best for me.'

Celebrating your right to free speech by ganging up on others just doesn't make sense to me.

So basically, what you're saying, is that you expect us to put up with Zarkovs unprovoked abuse, without responding to it?
TheDoc
QUOTE (Trippy+)
So basically, what you're saying, is that you expect us to put up with Zarkovs unprovoked abuse, without responding to it?


Yes, that's exactly what he's saying.
Good Elf
Hi Arthur, Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Trippy et al,

What you are saying may be right but it does not excuse anyones actions to try and goad Zarkov into getting banned. I repeat... nobody is forced by anyone to read his posts. If we don't like it we just don't read it. I think this is "very fair" Trippy. We are not the moral guardians of what people might read as long as it is pretty harmless. The Forum is a microcosm of Society and if as a Society we take the view that everyone we don't like or has different opinions to yourselves gets deported to some dictatorship overseas or thrown into a prison to rot or even worse ... Otherwise we try and get along together. The Forum is a direct measure of yourselves as citizens and your idealized view of yourselves as "humanity". If this is the 'sanitized" standard you see for all of us do you really think we are ever going to advance anywhere? You are either science minded or you are not. If you find the religious forums to your taste or a political forum then that is where you should be. Zarkov for his own reasons wants to be "here".

All right... he has said some pretty odd things and he is not too congenial but it is not a good enough reason to ban anyone and nobody should be trying to encourage any extreme actions by any members. It is not as though he is encouraging small children into his car or something?? People need to take some stock of themselves and realize the world is not personally made for their individual comfort. If you are all living in one of those walled villages for the rich with the armed guard at the front gate then don't read anything on the internet since you have already chosen to separate yourselves from the rest of "unwashed civilization". The rest of us live "out here".

If you want to sit at home at night and watch American Idol or some other mind boggling rubbish then you are entitled to do so... If somebody think that that tripe is all too much for them they may try and come here to find some interest in life or alternatively to vent their spleen about why science is not 'delivering the goods" for them. Some countries need those 'goods" to live and people sitting on their fat "behinds" is not helping put food in their mouths. Inaction is the option for the unmotivated, greedy and lazy. I think science has become far too cloistered. Look at the way you can't get Journal Articles that are even decades old or want to charge $35 for four pages of pretty tatty publishing... what is that to do with free and fair exchange of information? The Science Media has been buried in vast numbers of papers that are a load of rubbish with only a few gems in thousands of tons of rubble. You will never know where those "gems" are unless there is an open exchange of information. I know that many people on this Forum are way capable of accepting some flack. The other point is soon after you get rid of Zarkov... who is next on the "agenda"? There are always reasons for the way people are the way they are and if we listen up sometimes we can all learn something. People have far better things to do than winge about other people. We are truly privileged to be able to understand (or aspire to understand) science which I think is far more important than breakfast cereal.

Cheers
TheDoc
QUOTE (Good Elf+)
I repeat... nobody is forced by anyone to read his posts.


No, but Zarkov is pushing lies and paranoid delusions as fact. Not good.

QUOTE
We are not the moral guardians of what people might read as long as it is pretty harmless.


Except it isn't harmless. Zarkov is pushing WHAT HE KNOWS are lies as fact. So are you trying to say we should stand by and let Zarkov spread his wacko theories across this forum?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We are not the moral guardians of what people might read as long as it is pretty harmless.


Except it isn't harmless. Zarkov is pushing WHAT HE KNOWS are lies as fact. So are you trying to say we should stand by and let Zarkov spread his wacko theories across this forum?

All right... he has said some pretty odd things


Golly gosh gee whiz.

QUOTE
It is not as though he is encouraging small children into his car or something?? People need to take some stock of themselves and realize the world is not personally made for their individual comfort.


First part of that segment is irrelevant. Second part applies to Zarkov.

I ask again -are you trying to say we should stand by and let Zarkov spread his wacko theories across this forum?
Trippy
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 17 2008, 12:13 PM)
Hi Arthur, Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Trippy et al,

What you are saying may be right but it does not excuse anyones actions to try and goad Zarkov into getting banned. I repeat... nobody is forced by anyone to read his posts. If we don't like it we just don't read it. I think this is "very fair" Trippy. We are not the moral guardians of what people might read as long as it is pretty harmless. The Forum is a microcosm of Society and if as a Society we take the view that everyone we don't like or has different opinions to yourselves gets deported to some dictatorship overseas or thrown into a prison to rot or even worse ... Otherwise we try and get along together. The Forum is a direct measure of yourselves as citizens and your idealized view of yourselves as "humanity". If this is the 'sanitized" standard you see for all of us do you really think we are ever going to advance anywhere? You are either science minded or you are not. If you find the religious forums to your taste or a political forum then that is where you should be. Zarkov for his own reasons wants to be "here".

All right... he has said some pretty odd things and he is not too congenial but it is not a good enough reason to ban anyone and nobody should be trying to encourage any extreme actions by any members. It is not as though he is encouraging small children into his car or something?? People need to take some stock of themselves and realize the world is not personally made for their individual comfort. If you are all living in one of those walled villages for the rich with the armed guard at the front gate then don't read anything on the internet since you have already chosen to separate yourselves from the rest of "unwashed civilization". The rest of us live "out here".

If you want to sit at home at night and watch American Idol or some other mind boggling rubbish then you are entitled to do so... If somebody think that that tripe is all too much for them they may try and come here to find some interest in life or alternatively to vent their spleen about why science is not 'delivering the goods" for them. Some countries need those 'goods" to live and people sitting on their fat "behinds" is not helping put food in their mouths. Inaction is the option for the unmotivated, greedy and lazy. I think science has become far too cloistered. Look at the way you can't get Journal Articles that are even decades old or want to charge $35 for four pages of pretty tatty publishing... what is that to do with free and fair exchange of information? The Science Media has been buried in vast numbers of papers that are a load of rubbish with only a few gems in thousands of tons of rubble. You will never know where those "gems" are unless there is an open exchange of information. I know that many people on this Forum are way capable of accepting some flack. The other point is soon after you get rid of Zarkov... who is next on the "agenda"? There are always reasons for the way people are the way they are and if we listen up sometimes we can all learn something. People have far better things to do than winge about other people. We are truly privileged to be able to understand (or aspire to understand) science which I think is far more important than breakfast cereal.

Cheers

So, what you're saying, essentially, is that Zarkov is allowed to provoke and goad other people without having to endure any natural consequences that might result?
Good Elf
Hi Arthur, Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Trippy et al,

QUOTE (Trippy+)
So, what you're saying, essentially, is that Zarkov is allowed to provoke and goad other people without having to endure any natural consequences that might result?
This is not personal criticism and I fully understand what you mean but that is all the more a good reason why I am not happy with this "predatory" attitude. What is it about "free speech" that some of you are unable to grasp? You would think that you were personally paying for this site. Your idea of natural selection is the law of the jungle and you pounce on your prey after cutting them out from the herd and hunting them down in a pack. Is that what you mean by "natural consequences". Sorry ... don't buy it at any price. Just how many of your posts are concerned with criticizing others rather than contributing to public knowledge regarding science. There are plenty of "hate" sites on the Internet. Science is the expressed intention of this site and that is what pays the bills.... not so much the science but the hits. Hits depend on repeat users. Believe me when I say when Zarkov is around ... bills are paid... Capeci?

I see that some are displeased and you vote accordingly. That is your prerogative but I am not like that myself. I just look at the long lists of "wingers" that find this "sport" amusing to them. To me what Zarkov does seems to be relatively harmless. Help the guys that run this site by allowing a little controversy into the dull and boring discussions. The negative vibes only reduce the number of hits on this site and that is what ultimately pays for the resource. Being an adult is more than just putting negative comments in feedback. What is it about science that you find so unattractive that you can afford to spend so much time in this pointless pursuit? You an adult and I ask do you have an ability to make decisions for yourself? If you say yes then you will need to admit that others deserve to have the same opportunities as you.

Cheers
Trippy
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 17 2008, 02:54 PM)
Hi Arthur, Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Trippy et al,

QUOTE (Trippy+)
So, what you're saying, essentially, is that Zarkov is allowed to provoke and goad other people without having to endure any natural consequences that might result?
This is not personal criticism and I fully understand what you mean but that is all the more a good reason why I am not happy with this "predatory" attitude. What is it about "free speech" that some of you are unable to grasp?

I could ask the same thing of you.

So what you're now saying is that only those people with alternative views are entitled to freedom of speech?

Some how, he's allowed to express the opinion that I'm a "Narrow minded textbook quoting burger flipper", but I'm not allowed to express the opinion that he's spouting "Crackpot theories that can be disproven with a little common sense"?

There's a word for that you know (hypocrisy).

Why is it that when someone like Zarkov expresses the view that NASA are incompetent it's freedom of speech, but when someone like me expresses the opinion that it's Zarkov that's incompetent, it's not freedom of speech?

Where's my freedom of speech?
Where's my ability to carry a conversation about quantum mechanics without everybody else shoving their alternative views down my throat?
TheDoc
QUOTE (Trippy+Mar 17 2008, 03:48 AM)
QUOTE
This is not personal criticism and I fully understand what you mean but that is all the more a good reason why I am not happy with this "predatory" attitude. What is it about "free speech" that some of you are unable to grasp?

I could ask the same thing of you.

So what you're now saying is that only those people with alternative views are entitled to freedom of speech?

Some how, he's allowed to express the opinion that I'm a "Narrow minded textbook quoting burger flipper", but I'm not allowed to express the opinion that he's spouting "Crackpot theories that can be disproven with a little common sense"?

There's a word for that you know (hypocrisy).

Why is it that when someone like Zarkov expresses the view that NASA are incompetent it's freedom of speech, but when someone like me expresses the opinion that it's Zarkov that's incompetent, it's not freedom of speech?

Where's my freedom of speech?
Where's my ability to carry a conversation about quantum mechanics without everybody else shoving their alternative views down my throat?

smile.gif
Trippy
QUOTE (TheDoc+Mar 17 2008, 04:53 PM)
QUOTE
I could ask the same thing of you.

So what you're now saying is that only those people with alternative views are entitled to freedom of speech?

Some how, he's allowed to express the opinion that I'm a "Narrow minded textbook quoting burger flipper", but I'm not allowed to express the opinion that he's spouting "Crackpot theories that can be disproven with a little common sense"?

There's a word for that you know (hypocrisy).

Why is it that when someone like Zarkov expresses the view that NASA are incompetent it's freedom of speech, but when someone like me expresses the opinion that it's Zarkov that's incompetent, it's not freedom of speech?

Where's my freedom of speech?
Where's my ability to carry a conversation about quantum mechanics without everybody else shoving their alternative views down my throat?[/SIZE]

smile.gif

Let's be honest here, a spade's a spade right?
Why is it freedom of speech to say "Your mainstream model is wrong, my theory is correct".
And yet not freedom of speech to say "Your alternative model is wrong for these reasons"?

Why is it freedom of speech to make unsubstantiated claims, and a violation of freedom of speech to ask for proof before acceptance (the same standard I applied to mainstream).

I mean, what's the name of the book here... Everybody has freedom of speech, but some are more free to speak then others? Sounds a little Orwellian to me.
TheDoc
QUOTE (Trippy+)
Let's be honest here, a spade's a spade right?


Yeppers.

QUOTE
Why is it freedom of speech to say "Your mainstream model is wrong, my theory is correct".
And yet not freedom of speech to say "Your alternative model is wrong for these reasons"?


Don't expect a logical answer from Good Elf.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Why is it freedom of speech to say "Your mainstream model is wrong, my theory is correct".
And yet not freedom of speech to say "Your alternative model is wrong for these reasons"?


Don't expect a logical answer from Good Elf.

Why is it freedom of speech to make unsubstantiated claims, and a violation of freedom of speech to ask for proof before acceptance (the same standard I applied to mainstream).


See above.

QUOTE
I mean, what's the name of the book here... Everybody has freedom of speech, but some are more free to speak then others? Sounds a little Orwellian to me.


Makes me think of "1984" unsure.gif ph34r.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 16 2008, 06:13 PM)
Hi Arthur, Zarkov, yor_on, TheDoc, Trippy et al,

What you are saying may be right but it does not excuse anyones actions to try and goad Zarkov into getting banned. I repeat... nobody is forced by anyone to read his posts. If we don't like it we just don't read it. I think this is "very fair" Trippy. We are not the moral guardians of what people might read as long as it is pretty harmless. The Forum is a microcosm of Society and if as a Society we take the view that everyone we don't like or has different opinions to yourselves gets deported to some dictatorship overseas or thrown into a prison to rot or even worse ... Otherwise we try and get along together. The Forum is a direct measure of yourselves as citizens and your idealized view of yourselves as "humanity". If this is the 'sanitized" standard you see for all of us do you really think we are ever going to advance anywhere? You are either science minded or you are not. If you find the religious forums to your taste or a political forum then that is where you should be. Zarkov for his own reasons wants to be "here".

All right... he has said some pretty odd things and he is not too congenial but it is not a good enough reason to ban anyone and nobody should be trying to encourage any extreme actions by any members. It is not as though he is encouraging small children into his car or something?? People need to take some stock of themselves and realize the world is not personally made for their individual comfort. If you are all living in one of those walled villages for the rich with the armed guard at the front gate then don't read anything on the internet since you have already chosen to separate yourselves from the rest of "unwashed civilization". The rest of us live "out here".

If you want to sit at home at night and watch American Idol or some other mind boggling rubbish then you are entitled to do so... If somebody think that that tripe is all too much for them they may try and come here to find some interest in life or alternatively to vent their spleen about why science is not 'delivering the goods" for them. Some countries need those 'goods" to live and people sitting on their fat "behinds" is not helping put food in their mouths. Inaction is the option for the unmotivated, greedy and lazy. I think science has become far too cloistered. Look at the way you can't get Journal Articles that are even decades old or want to charge $35 for four pages of pretty tatty publishing... what is that to do with free and fair exchange of information? The Science Media has been buried in vast numbers of papers that are a load of rubbish with only a few gems in thousands of tons of rubble. You will never know where those "gems" are unless there is an open exchange of information. I know that many people on this Forum are way capable of accepting some flack. The other point is soon after you get rid of Zarkov... who is next on the "agenda"? There are always reasons for the way people are the way they are and if we listen up sometimes we can all learn something. People have far better things to do than winge about other people. We are truly privileged to be able to understand (or aspire to understand) science which I think is far more important than breakfast cereal.

Cheers

No one is goading Zarkov into getting banned.

He's been here a long time and only has one warning.

So clearly, that is not the issue.



The agument, no one is forced to read his posts, is just silly.

This is a forum, the purpose for which is to read others posts.

Thus when he posts, both he and you should expect people to respond.

The fact that his posts are filled with extrodinary claims but lack the requisite extrodinary proofs, as well as refering to everyone who disagrees with him as an idiot is why you find people getting a tad heated.

Further, this is a SCIENCE forum.

You can't expect someone to post the kind of material that Zarkov does and for others to NOT challenge it.

To not challenge it is to tacitly agree with it.

Sorry, a lot of us just aren't inclined to allow statements like NASA FAKED THE MOON LANDINGS to go unchallenged.

Sorry, a lot of us just aren't inclined to allow statements like Comets are made out of Hydrogen Peroxide to go unchallenged.


And NO, this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with someone who has different opinions. You and I have different opinions on many things Good Elf, and I argued with you on a number of them, but I am not trying to get you banned nor do I search you out to argue with you, or engage in any other improper forum conduct towards you, or any of the other posters I argue with (some for MONTHS on end, just see the 9/11 forums)

Arthur
TheDoc
QUOTE (adoucette+)
The fact that his posts are filled with extrodinary claims but lack the requisite extrodinary proofs, as well as refering to everyone who disagrees with him as an idiot is why you find people getting a tad heated.


Take note, Good Elf.

QUOTE
Sorry, a lot of us just aren't inclined to allow statements like NASA FAKED THE MOON LANDINGS to go unchallenged.


Agreed. We're not going to sit here and let some complete idiot with an ego problem say what is real and what isn't. It's an insult to tens of thousands of people.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Sorry, a lot of us just aren't inclined to allow statements like NASA FAKED THE MOON LANDINGS to go unchallenged.


Agreed. We're not going to sit here and let some complete idiot with an ego problem say what is real and what isn't. It's an insult to tens of thousands of people.

And NO, this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with someone who has different opinions. You and I have different opinions on many things Good Elf, and I argued with you on a number of them, but I am not trying to get you banned nor do I search you out to argue with you, or engage in any other improper forum conduct towards you, or any of the other posters I argue with (some for MONTHS on end, just see the 9/11 forums)


Arthur, you deserve another positive.
yor_on
Now Doc
You wouldn't happen to be a relative to Dallas?
Would you:)

As for the rest of you 'wild bunch'ers' ::)
You're proving my point in, ahh Trippy what was it you said? Oh yes...
In spades :)

As long as you're not the owners of this board you have to accept that all can write.
And even if ' netiquette' seems a dying art I offer you this food for thoughts.

" http://www.albion.com/netiquette/introduction.html "

and

" http://www.rfc.net/rfc1855.html "

and

http://www.bbc.co.uk/webwise/askbruce/arti...iquette_1.shtml

Even if someone posts 'flamebait' this forum should be mature enough to ignore it.
Instead of ganging up and respond in kind.

-------------

Ps: somewhere I get this nasty feeling that some 'hidden moderator' might believe this kind of behavior to be in the best interest of this site?

Now why would that be?
Somebody said that even negative publicity is publicity..
And that sells :)

Sure hope not...
Good Elf
Hi All,

I think anyone with half a brain knows that man has landed on the moon... for real!! But I see a lot of people who are willing to countenance the opposite point of view. Listen up... They are doing it for an "undisclosed" reason...

Maybe I am "crazy"... I dunno but that is my "tenuous theory" biggrin.gif

As to your right to point out to others your beliefs... and supported with the extensive evidence available... that is your prerogative. Quite frankly I don't really think you are changing anyones mind. Certainly not Zarkov's and those with an "agenda" such as yourselves I think there is no way that you can modify anyones personality or religion or "crank" or "fringe" opinion by yelling at them. You have a perfect right to try and you have no limitations on your "free speech" from me. Just don't complain about it when he feels you are insulting him... because you are since it goes back such a long way. The only alternative is that you try and have all "dissenters" banned.

I for one am quite happy to coexist with him and any other "individuals" on this site as long as it is simple opinion it can't hurt any of us. Like I said... Newton was a "crank" and yet IMHO he was the greatest and most influential mind that we have ever produced. Wise up and realize that scientists and technologists are not your average game show host. This is a "reality site". You are receiving "gut reactions" here and you should be not insulted but stimulated to think about it a little and know "what lies beneath". This correspondence is spanning continents and cultures... for heavens sake be grateful not spiteful, you don't really know any of them out there.

What I would like to point out is this site "lives" by way of "hits" on these pages. The more hits the more prosperous this site becomes. However... The more people you turn away is so contrary to the wonderful resource we have here that I must say this banter is only damaging the attendance peaks. Previously we were getting 1000+ at once for extended periods on this Forum every night at peak. This was a "happy" circumstance. This means more people wanted to be here and more people were enjoying the interaction of like minds. They didn't mind those "cranks" then and I am sure that most of those who have been here a while don't mind "too much" those "cranks" now. I see that as a "mature" response. What I see now is the peak of the night it will only reach between 300 and 400 at any one time. What this really means is resources will be withdrawn from this site and placed on other sites and before long this entire Forum may eventually "go away". Now I do not know if that is what you all intend but that is what can and will happen... You are blowing somebodies business model and you are also restricting this sites ability to be enjoyable for the majority with all this bickering. If "thousands" of people are offended then they have the perfect right to "hit" this site and tell Zarkov about it "personally". Free speech comes at a price and it is the resource you are seeing here before you... It costs somebody something and it is provided to all of us effectively "free". It is only fair that you support your "local Forum" with a healthy mind and attitude.

Cheers

PS: I have spent too much time on this subject anyway. Spend your time as you choose just remember that you are being scrutinized by a lot more people out there than you could possibly personally represent.
Trippy
So what you're both saying, is that people like Zarkov should be allowed to post semi-convincing pseudo-scientific claptrap unopposed, and it should be up to the viewing public to discern the truth for what it is?

What workd do you live in? The real workd doesn't work that way. Take, for example the highschool student doing a research project on relativity, comes across Relativity+, or True Relativity. They're not neccessarily going to have the discretionary powers to recognize these ideas for the balony they are.

By what you're saying, someone comes on pronouncing that Radium Water is good for all that ailes ye, we should leave them to it. I personally, would not be able to, in good conscience sit by and let such misinformation be peddled.
adoucette
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 17 2008, 10:13 AM)
What I would like to point out is this site "lives" by way of "hits" on these pages. The more hits the more prosperous this site becomes. However... The more people you turn away is so contrary to the wonderful resource we have here that I must say this banter is only damaging the attendance peaks. Previously we were getting 1000+ at once for extended periods on this Forum every night at peak. This was a "happy" circumstance. This means more people wanted to be here and more people were enjoying the interaction of like minds. They didn't mind those "cranks" then and I am sure that most of those who have been here a while don't mind "too much" those "cranks" now. I see that as a "mature" response. What I see now is the peak of the night it will only reach between 300 and 400 at any one time. What this really means is resources will be withdrawn from this site and placed on other sites and before long this entire Forum may eventually "go away". Now I do not know if that is what you all intend but that is what can and will happen... You are blowing somebodies business model and you are also restricting this sites ability to be enjoyable for the majority with all this bickering. If "thousands" of people are offended then they have the perfect right to "hit" this site and tell Zarkov about it "personally".  Free speech comes at a price and it is the resource you are seeing here before you... It costs somebody something and it is provided to all of us effectively "free". It is only fair that you support your "local Forum" with a healthy mind and attitude.


I think you are wrong.

I think it is the proliferation of CRANKS that have driven away the sane people who used to post here.

It gets TEDIOUS to continually have to fend off their continual posts of nothing but unsupported drivel.

And I think the MAIN reason for this is that the Moderators have apparently given up in trying to rein in any but the most outrageous cranks.

I also firmly believe that the addition of the "Feedback" section was a really dumb idea for a discussion forum and has created much more hostility then any kind of useful rating system.

Posters should be evaluated by what they post.

Arthur
marley
Good Elf
I've really enjoyed your posts here, and the sentiments you have expressed.
It is a sad day to think that we should be ruled by that which is degenerate.
But such is the decline in our societies at present, and portrayed rather well on forums such as this one.
Trippy
QUOTE (marley+Mar 18 2008, 04:56 AM)
Good Elf
I've really enjoyed your posts here, and the sentiments you have expressed.
It is a sad day to think that we should be ruled by that which is degenerate.
But such is the decline in our societies at present, and portrayed rather well on forums such as this one.

Oooh. A veiled insult. Real loving.


Hypocrit.
TheDoc
QUOTE (yor_on+)
Now Doc
You wouldn't happen to be a relative to Dallas?
Would you:)


Don't think that I'm going to take that as just a joke, bub.

QUOTE (Good Elf+)
Newton was a "crank" and yet IMHO he was the greatest and most influential mind that we have ever produced. Wise up and realize that scientists and technologists are not your average game show host. This is a "reality site". You are receiving "gut reactions" here and you should be not insulted but stimulated to think about it a little and know "what lies beneath". This correspondence is spanning continents and cultures... for heavens sake be grateful not spiteful, you don't really know any of them out there.


If you're trying to equate Zarkov with Newton then you must've been living under a rock.

QUOTE (Trippy+)
So what you're both saying, is that people like Zarkov should be allowed to post semi-convincing pseudo-scientific claptrap unopposed, and it should be up to the viewing public to discern the truth for what it is?


Yes, that is exactly what they're saying, Trip.

QUOTE (marley+)
Good Elf
I've really enjoyed your posts here, and the sentiments you have expressed.
It is a sad day to think that we should be ruled by that which is degenerate.
But such is the decline in our societies at present, and portrayed rather well on forums such as this one.


Can't address us directly, eh Squeeze marley? You hypocritical coward.
marley
Dear childish degenerate ones

You have accused me of being quite a number of people. You seem to think that I made a non loving statement just now. Some seem to already know I was referring to them when I mentioned that the spiritually degenerate would like to be the leaders of a group of people.

Remember dear ones, love and appeasement of ego do not go hand in hand.
It is typical that as soon as someone has the decency to point out what some of you are doing, it is always the "hypocrite" card that is the favorite one played back.
Username
QUOTE (marley+Mar 17 2008, 06:17 PM)
Remember dear ones, love and appeasement of ego do not go hand in hand.

Dear Mirrorman,

Remember dear one, love and appeasement of ego do not go knob in hand.




laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (Username+Mar 17 2008, 06:33 PM)
Dear Mirrorman,

Remember dear one, love and appeasement of ego do not go knob in hand.




laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Go get 'im, Username! smile.gif
Trippy
QUOTE (marley+Mar 18 2008, 07:17 AM)
Dear childish degenerate ones

You have accused me of being quite a number of people. You seem to think that I made a non loving statement just now. Some seem to already know I was referring to them when I mentioned that the spiritually degenerate would like to be the leaders of a group of people.

Remember dear ones, love and appeasement of ego do not go hand in hand.
It is typical that as soon as someone has the decency to point out what some of you are doing, it is always the "hypocrite" card that is the favorite one played back.

Oh look.

More veiled insults.
Feel the love everybody, bathe in its glow.

Heh. Kiss my ego.
yor_on
Awh come on Doc.
If not a joke?
what can it be?

You telling me it's the truth?
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