Manosapien
Some of my thoughts on space theory. I see many similarities between space/time and water. Just how they both move and flow. Only one thing is faster than light and that is the expansion of space/time it self. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected. Einstein stated that gravity is matters curvature of space/time. To go beyond that, I think that gravity is matters restriction of space/times movement. In normal empty space time ticks faster than here on Earth. I think matter is sort of pinching space/time, making it expand/tick a little slower. At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop.
mathman
QUOTE
We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected.

Where did you get this idea?

QUOTE (->
 QUOTE We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected.

Where did you get this idea?

At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop

The clock appears to slow down for a distant observer. In the space ship time proceeds normally.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 12 2012, 10:16 PM)
Some of my thoughts on space theory. I see many similarities between space/time and water. Just how they both move and flow. Only one thing is faster than light and that is the expansion of space/time it self. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected. Einstein stated that gravity is matters curvature of space/time. To go beyond that, I think that gravity is matters restriction of space/times movement. In normal empty space time ticks faster than here on Earth. I think matter is sort of pinching space/time, making it expand/tick a little slower. At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop.

Gravity control the universe... Where there is gravity, the strength of it controls the speed at which things happen... Time measures for us what happens... But it is not the cause of it happening.

Gravity is thought to be instantaneous... Measured to be at least 2 x 10^10 c... It is a flux throughout the entire cosmos... It is the highway system that everything travels on and it controls all movement using its various forms. Mass, centrifugal, and inertia... Neutrinos, photons, etc. travel over it... Virtual particles are known to pop out of it.., and return to it... At least that's the thought, since it is what is there to be popped in and out of... Photons interacting with the flux of gravity as they travel through it produce the vibrations/frequencies that create the wave portion which is seen as light to us...

Where there is no gravity, beyond the furthest galaxy., there is no gravity highway so we cannot see of know of it.., but it is seemingly already there, waiting. As galaxies move outward from us.., and into the void.., they will carry their own gravity with them and so provide an extension of the gravity network and allow us access to that part of the previously unknown cosmos via that newly opened flux area...

The various time frames are determined by the local gravity field... The more gravity there is.., the slower atoms operate.., therefore everything they comprise runs at that particular rate... Including the mechanical clocks and human aging...

SR people say that gravity slows time.., then time slows the atoms of everything in that area... But they're just following a misconception that Einstein had at the time.., before much of anything was known of gravity... I'm sure if he would have lived longer he would have realized time is only man's imagination to keep society in sync... But that it does not belong in the cosmos.., where it causes fantasies... Time travel, time dilation, folding time.., multiple universes, worm holes.., etc... None of that is anything more than fantasyland... It is the math running wild with what is in fact an analogy for gravity... But it works to a large extent.., but when it fails, it really fails big time...

You can get a lot of understanding out of the link below... The first one is a dupe of the second... Done not by the author but it is easier to read... The second one is the official paper by the author.., which is the same word for word...

You will hear all kinds of whining, crying, name calling, and hooting now.., from those immature faithful followers of the SR religion... Of Einstein and time...

They cannot bear to think they've been wasting their time chasing the tail of time.

Einstein was an absolute and true genius, don't get me wrong... But *everyone* makes unbelievably simple mistakes in their lives... They get hung up on something and it never dawns on them that they are missing one simple thing.... Einstein chose time.., which is reasonable and understandable.., for his day... But he missed the brass ring... He should have chose gravity... It is the true and only governor of the cosmos... There is no time in the cosmos... It's only rocks and emptiness... None of it cares about our concept of time. Everything just does its thing.., forever.

Here's are the links... Believe what you believe.., but don't believe what others will tell you to think... Make up your own mind after reading...

http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Speed_of_Gravity.htm
Original paper.
http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html

Ciao...
Manosapien
QUOTE
Where did you get this idea?

I thought of it couple weeks ago

QUOTE (->
 QUOTE Where did you get this idea?

I thought of it couple weeks ago

The clock appears to slow down for a distant observer. In the space ship time proceeds normally.

That is true, But if you could park next to the event horizon with out going in some how the clock on the ship would come to an almost stop.

And to photo guy, the fact that there is a measurable differences in time when going from empty space to the Earth means it exist.

photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 12 2012, 10:16 PM)
Some of my thoughts on space theory. I see many similarities between space/time and water. Just how they both move and flow. Only one thing is faster than light and that is the expansion of space/time it self. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected. Einstein stated that gravity is matters curvature of space/time. To go beyond that, I think that gravity is matters restriction of space/times movement. In normal empty space time ticks faster than here on Earth. I think matter is sort of pinching space/time, making it expand/tick a little slower. At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop.

Factually, and more logically..., black holes are super compact dead stars that have been pulling in everything around them... To a point. They continue to grow and grow.., and may at perhaps mid life be pulling in millions of other stars... These stars are consumed and as the black hole's gravity grows, it is enough to smash the suns and their atoms and all they contain into one solid inert super high density piece of very round rock.., or something heavier.

This *massive* amount of gravity pulls everything in for millions of light years distance... And as it pulls the star dust toward itself.., that dust forms the planets and all that we see of galaxies as they exit to us now... But at a point.., the debris field or 'attraction area' is cleared, and what is beyond it is outside the effects of the black hole... The stardust and planets and suns that have formed as they were being pulled toward the black hole, now become stable... They are in orbit around the black hole... They are not being pulled into it any more by the gravity that is pulling them to follow.. Everything is simply in free fall.

I believe our own black hole is stable now.. Is it not..?

I'm using what's known to produce a very likely picture... There will be complaints about this... That it can't be, because the use of time says it isn't possible.., but it will be explainable if one does not use time.., if one wants to think...

I think...!

No matter what the trolls think...

Ciao...

photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 13 2012, 12:28 AM)

I thought of it couple weeks ago

That is true, But if you could park next to the event horizon with out going in some how the clock on the ship would come to an almost stop.

And to photo guy, the fact that there is a measurable differences in time when going from empty space to the Earth means it exist.

Time only exists in your mind because you need it to comprehend that something happens... Rocks do not need to know what time it is... They are controlled by gravity.., and everything just 'happens' by forces other than time... Time produces hallucinations in math and man. Time produces fantasy land... Time is our imagination and we've made it a real working part of the cosmos, to travel in and fold up and produce smoke and mirrors....

How can any one not know that is something that cannot be done... Man is so egotistical...

photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 13 2012, 12:28 AM)

I thought of it couple weeks ago

That is true, But if you could park next to the event horizon with out going in some how the clock on the ship would come to an almost stop.

And to photo guy, the fact that there is a measurable differences in time when going from empty space to the Earth means it exist.

There is no measurable difference in 'time' going from empty space to earth... What is measurable is the difference in gravity strength.., which is directly responsible for the speed at which atoms work... It changes the clock's movements because clocks are built to be in tune with earth's gravity... Add some or take some away and they react accordingly... As do humans in their aging.., and everything else... It's an illusion.. A very convincing illusion ... It fooled Einstein.

p.s.... Everything I say is provable and accepted... It's obvious that time is not needed... There are no paradox's when time is not considered... It's just that no one want's to be the one to dispute Einstein...

Manosapien
Say you have two atomic clocks. One kept on Earth one launched to empty space. both traveling the same speed. The clock in empty space will be measurable faster than the one kept on Earth. That is how GPS works. They have to purposely miss-adjust the space clock to keep correct time here on Earth. If time did not exist then this adjustment would never have to happen.

I will give you an easier example. If I say meet me at City Hall. you could be sitting there for 100 years because I never gave you a time. You need a time, March 12, 2012 at 12pm and a place, city hall. you cant have one without the other.

Also if time doesnt exist how come I cant just open my door and see my self 10 years ago. If I was in the same spot(space) 10 years ago. There must be something separating me from the past. time
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 13 2012, 12:57 AM)
Say you have two atomic clocks. One kept on Earth one launched to empty space. both traveling the same speed. The clock in empty space will be measurable faster than the one kept on Earth. That is how GPS works. They have to purposely miss-adjust the space clock to keep correct time here on Earth. If time did not exist then this adjustment would never have to happen.

I will give you an easier example. If I say meet me at City Hall. you could be sitting there for 100 years because I never gave you a time. You need a time, March 12, 2012 at 12pm and a place, city hall. you cant have one without the other.

Also if time doesnt exist how come I cant just open my door and see my self 10 years ago. If I was in the same spot(space) 10 years ago there must be something separating me from the past. time

The first one was easy enough.., but I'll answer the second first to get it out of the way... Yes time is useful here on earth... We have devised a means to keep track of the earth's rotation around itself.... To know how long it will be before the sun sets.., when to get to work when everyone else does.., and when to sit down to eat... When the food is ready... It is merely a means to sync society... Clocks are merely mechanical means, tuned to earth's gravity, so as to coincide with the earth's rotation relative to the sun. Clocks tell US when to do things... They have no control over rocks and empty space.

As for the gps.., they are based against a ground clock... We all know there are different speeds of operation under different gravity scenarios... But GPS is extremely complex with upwards of 32 satellites in rotation at once.., to be used to 'explain' anything easily...

The simple fact is., that clocks will run faster because they are further out from the center of the earth.., where there is less gravity... You can see this on a mountain top.., and I'm sure now that the geoid has been mapped, that it will be seen in southern India too... Clock will run faster than in the south west Pacific...

In any case., gravity lessens and because there is no inertia, the atoms of all matter in that lesser gravity will tend to run easier.., and faster... That makes aging happen faster...

But..., because gravity is a flux in the cosmos.., and if one is traveling at a significant speed through it.., they will be cutting those lines of flux and basically enduring much more graivity effects than if they were stopped... They are producing their own local gravity field... I know emf is not the same but it's the same in effect.., where they cut the lines of force... Gravity is there... We know that.. It is pervasive throughout the cosmos... Instantaneous... The medium which everything else rides on... Including light and it's waves... It is a physical force but we have little ability to actually take it apart... Yet....! ??

Gravity rules... Time itself is truly meaningless... It's a human imagined byproduct...

Give me another paradox... Or ten... They don't exist when not considering time. There are purely physical and very logical explanations.

Btw.., I appreciate banging this out with someone who is not using one liners. But we'll have to hurry... They're out there and are probably sniffing around for us now.. lol

photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 13 2012, 12:57 AM)
Say you have two atomic clocks. One kept on Earth one launched to empty space. both traveling the same speed. The clock in empty space will be measurable faster than the one kept on Earth. That is how GPS works. They have to purposely miss-adjust the space clock to keep correct time here on Earth. If time did not exist then this adjustment would never have to happen.

I will give you an easier example. If I say meet me at City Hall. you could be sitting there for 100 years because I never gave you a time. You need a time, March 12, 2012 at 12pm and a place, city hall. you cant have one without the other.

Also if time doesnt exist how come I cant just open my door and see my self 10 years ago. If I was in the same spot(space) 10 years ago. There must be something separating me from the past. time

Missed the bottom example..

You can't find yourself outside your door because you moved inside the house.., and a few other things since ten years ago... There IS continuous change.., the atoms in our bodies are constantly being replaced too.., but none of that involves time...

Continuity happens in an analog way... There are no frames as such because frames hold absolutely nothing... Cut the side of an apple off and you will have what some call a frame., which is supposed to hold a minute frozen piece of time... If you look at the face toward the core it is larger than the face of the piece cut off... There was change but NOTHING happens in that single frame... It's totally empty... No matter how many slices you make you will just be able to see continuity from one face to the other. There is nothing between...

Atoms run slower or faster... Their speed of operation determines aging which is what some call time.., but it is an analogy... Gravity causes some things to age faster than others.... To get older quicker... Then they can become mixed... That's what's being 'folded'... Not time... There is no time to fold... The math says something can be folded.., but that's because gravity does things like that... But using time in the math is misleading everyone to thinking it's time itself that folds... Nahhh... I just imagine time... It's not real. Physical things run because of physical forces...
Robittybob1
QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 13 2012, 01:34 AM)

As for the gps.., The simple fact is., that clocks will run faster because they are further out from the center of the earth.., where there is less gravity... You can see this on a mountain top.., and I'm sure now that the geoid has been mapped, that it will be seen in southern India too... Clock will run faster than in the south west Pacific...

You go that wrong - the atomic clock orbiting the Earth runs slower than the ground based one. The 2 effects have to be added together. Faster for lowered gravity but slower because of velocity relativity.
So it is definitely slower over all.
AlexG
QUOTE
p.s.... Everything I say is provable and accepted...

Bullshit. You know nothing at all about the real universe.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 13 2012, 12:57 AM)
Say you have two atomic clocks. One kept on Earth one launched to empty space. both traveling the same speed. The clock in empty space will be measurable faster than the one kept on Earth. That is how GPS works. They have to purposely miss-adjust the space clock to keep correct time here on Earth. If time did not exist then this adjustment would never have to happen.

I will give you an easier example. If I say meet me at City Hall. you could be sitting there for 100 years because I never gave you a time. You need a time, March 12, 2012 at 12pm and a place, city hall. you cant have one without the other.

Also if time doesnt exist how come I cant just open my door and see my self 10 years ago. If I was in the same spot(space) 10 years ago. There must be something separating me from the past. time

Even light slows according to the density of gravity that is must travel through... It slows to match the slowness of everything else in that gravity field... All the measuring instruments.., as in 'clocks'.., our senses.., etc... Gravity slows to the amount needed. to appear as c in all the various gravity densities... What some call time dilation. But it is easy to explain light seeming to be the same speed in all of them., when you know it's really not...

We see gravity causing light to go around.., or diffract.., at it tries to go through a gravity field.., as in gravity lens... It difracts because of the meduim being denser.., but in fact it goes straight through.., slowing while inside.., so those people see it as c.., and coming back up to true speed as it exits..., until it gets to us and OUR particular gravity speed medium density...

Robittybob1

You are wrong.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Mar 13 2012, 01:54 AM)
You go that wrong - the atomic clock orbiting the Earth runs slower than the ground based one.   The 2 effects have to be added together.  Faster for lowered gravity but slower because of velocity relativity.
So it is definitely slower over all.

Please watch how you snip what I say... I did not put it the way you have quote me..

Here is what I said...

"
As for the gps.., they are based against a ground clock... We all know there are different speeds of operation under different gravity scenarios... But GPS is extremely complex with upwards of 32 satellites in rotation at once.., to be used to 'explain' anything easily...

The simple fact is., that clocks will run faster because they are further out from the center of the earth.., where there is less gravity... You can see this on a mountain top.., and I'm sure now that the geoid has been mapped, that it will be seen in southern India too... Clock will run faster than in the south west Pacific...
"

They were two different thoughts.., not run on as though one...

The first says I'm not gong to get into the complication there is when an easier concept will do...

The second is the easier concept... Not referring to GPS... Only to stationary objects on earth's surface...

I understand that lesser gravity speeds clocks.., but that any inertia will slow them down again... Because inertia IS gravity in another form. That there is a point of balance where one form loses out and the other takes over.

p.s. I thought we already agreed on this...

AlexG
QUOTE
but that any inertia will slow them down again... Because inertia IS gravity in another form

No.

Idiot. Why do you insist on posting on things you know nothing about?

(spoiler): Because he's a crank.
Robittybob1
QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 13 2012, 02:10 AM)

I understand that lesser gravity speeds clocks.., but that any inertia will slow them down again... Because inertia IS gravity in another form. That there is a point of balance where one form loses out and the other takes over.

p.s. I thought we already agreed on this...

When the satellite has attained it's orbital velocity where is the ongoing inertia? Or are you saying the acceleration it had in order to attain that velocity has overcome inertia and left the satellite with inertia.
And that "contained inertia" (no longer felt) slows time?

Inertial mass has possibly increased due to the additional momentum it has.

[You know recent physics has stuffed me up because I used to think in terms of relativistic mass, but they try and call that momentum now. (So basically confused).]
AlexG
QUOTE
You know recent physics has stuffed me up because I used to think in terms of relativistic mass, but they try and call that momentum now. (So basically confused).

The term 'relativistic mass' is misleading, in that MANY people have thought that since the 'mass' is increasing, the gravitational field is increasing as well.

"Relativistic" is fine, it's "mass" that screws up people's thinking.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Mar 13 2012, 02:31 AM)

When the satellite has attained it's orbital velocity where is the ongoing inertia?  Or are you saying the acceleration it had in order to attain that velocity has overcome inertia and left the satellite with inertia.
And that "contained inertia" (no longer felt) slows time?

Inertial mass has possibly increased due to the additional momentum it has.

[You know recent physics has stuffed me up because I used to think in terms of relativistic mass, but they try and call that momentum now.  (So basically confused).]

You are confusing acceleration with velocity... Acceleration shrinks things while it is on going... Such as the rods on a disk that's spinning up... Constant acceleration which will probably be common if we ever get out there to any extent., and it will see continuing amounts of compression... Of course as viewed from elsewhere...

The compression will cease when acceleration stops increasing.., at an established velocity... There will be no compression at this point... It will return though when deceleration occurs at the end of the voyage.., prior to parking the vehicle...

Inertia is another matter... Inertia is the force that continues a state of motion... It is present at rest and it is present in free fall... If someone is in an enclosed can that is accelerating in space.., he will find the bottom end of the can to be his floor.., gravity wise... If the can is slowing down.., the occupant will find the leading end of the can to be his floor.., gravity wise...

When traveling at a constant speed there will still be inertia... The person will be in free fall... But this is just as much gravity as there is when someone enjoys free fall after jumping off a cliff... It comes to be noticed when there is a quick stop...

So you can see it is really there even though you may not notice it inside a can where you are simply floating around in the middle of it...

What really seems to be going on is that this can is moving very quickly through the relatively 'at rest' lines of gravity flux that pervade the entire universe...

It is the cutting of these lines of flux or energy that bring on an equivalence to mass gravity... The faster one goes.., the more gravity one creates for themselves.., which of course then slows down all the atoms the vehicle and passengers and anything else that they comprise, which are traveling at that same speed... The local gravity field then being the preferred reference frame.., whether it comes from mass, inertia or even centrifugal., as long as it isn't just neutralizing mass gravity... It would come into play, added to total gravity, if for instance the can was side thrusted to a new direction... You would be against the inside wall of the can for a while... Although... this MAY still be considered inertia... ?? And it may be considered acceleration instead.., causeing some 'compression' to the body pressed against the side... But it seems likely to be *additonal* in any case...

??

It's all clear to me... Is there anything that disproves it..? Other than people saying time is required..?

Robittybob1
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 13 2012, 02:39 AM)

The term 'relativistic mass' is misleading, in that MANY people have thought that since the 'mass' is increasing, the gravitational field is increasing as well.

"Relativistic" is fine, it's "mass" that screws up people's thinking.

The momentum of a photon is affected by gravity, so would relativistic momentum not behave in a similar way?

Above P_G says "It is the cutting of these lines of flux or energy that bring on an equivalence to mass gravity... The faster one goes.., the more gravity one creates for themselves.., which of course then slows down all the atoms the vehicle and passengers and anything else that they comprise,"

Well I know you two don't agree but .... I really will work it out one day.
Ed Wood
sooooo

The relative mass of an object only matters if the object hits, is hit by, is pushed by another mass or in the case of light absorbed, reflected or emitted.

Matter is at rest in space relative to itself no matter what speed it is traveling the only event that causes mass to increase relative to itself is acceleration. The increase in mass relative to itself goes away once the acceleration stops.

huh
photo_guy
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Mar 13 2012, 03:55 AM)
The momentum of a photon is affected by gravity, so would relativistic momentum not behave in a similar way?

Above P_G says "It is the cutting of these lines of flux or energy that bring on an equivalence to mass gravity... The faster one goes.., the more gravity one creates for themselves.., which of course then slows down all the atoms the vehicle and passengers and anything else that they comprise,"

Well I know you two don't agree but .... I really will work it out one day.

If one has acceleration compression.., that is the same mass in a smaller space... No additional gravity... It's not relativistic... It's still the same 'weight'... It doesn't increase. Just the density of it, but then equivalently smaller in size.

Gravity builds only through momentum... Velocity.

photo_guy
QUOTE (Ed Wood+Mar 13 2012, 04:02 AM)
sooooo

The relative mass of an object only matters if the object hits, is hit by, is pushed by another mass or in the case of light absorbed, reflected or emitted.

Matter is at rest in space relative to itself no matter what speed it is traveling the only event that causes mass to increase relative to itself is acceleration. The increase in mass relative to itself goes away once the acceleration stops.

huh

Thank you... I agree...

But including deceleration too... The reverse is the same.
Robittybob1
QUOTE (Ed Wood+Mar 13 2012, 04:02 AM)
sooooo

The relative mass of an object only matters if the object hits, is hit by, is pushed by another mass or in the case of light absorbed, reflected or emitted.

Matter is at rest in space relative to itself no matter what speed it is traveling the only event that causes mass to increase relative to itself is acceleration. The increase in mass relative to itself goes away once the acceleration stops.

huh

But does it really go away or does it stay there depending on where it ends up. Imagine a spacecraft designed to catch a galaxy moving away from us a relativistic speed but nevertheless we had an even faster propulsion. Would all of our relativistic mass disappear when we land on this other "home"?
I don't believe so.
For we would not have to decelerate as much as our acceleration.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Mar 13 2012, 04:16 AM)
But does it really go away or does it stay there depending on where it ends up.  Imagine a spacecraft designed to catch a galaxy moving away from us a relativistic speed but nevertheless we had an even faster propulsion.  Would all of our relativistic mass disappear when we land on this other "home"?
I don't believe so.
For we would not have to decelerate as much as our acceleration.

Mass in this sense only means compressing 'density'... The same weight in a smaller package... Squeeze a large pillow into a bowling ball bag... More density... More mass per cubic inch. Same weight.., in a smaller measured size... Net zero.

In fact it's only seen to be more compact when seen from somewhere else... That's how they get to use the word relativistic... Nothing really happens in the road show itself.. There is nothing to get rid of... There was never any real increase in actual 'weight'.., which I believe you are thinking it means...

AlexG
QUOTE
Acceleration shrinks things while it is on going...

No it doesn't.

QUOTE (->
 QUOTE Acceleration shrinks things while it is on going...

No it doesn't.

Would all of our relativistic mass disappear when we land on this other "home"?

Yes. Relativistic 'mass' is relative. If you're moving with 90% c with respect to me, I see your 'relativistic mass' as greater. But if I then catch up with you so that I'm at rest with respect to you, you have no relativistic mass, from my frame of reference.

It's not mass. It's kinetic energy, which is relative.
Ed Wood
acceleration is deceleration and deceleration is acceleration.

if a mass is not accelerating or decelerating it is @ rest

AlexG
QUOTE
if a mass is not accelerating or decelerating it is @ rest

compared to what?
Robittybob1
QUOTE (Ed Wood+Mar 13 2012, 04:37 AM)
acceleration is deceleration and deceleration is acceleration.

if a mass is not accelerating or decelerating it is @ rest

Do you think you could argue that in court for failing to stop at a stop sign? It was reported by the defendant Ed Wood; "I wasn't accelerating or decelerating so I must have been at rest" "Rest is equivalent to stopped your Honour".
Robittybob1
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 13 2012, 04:33 AM)

No it doesn't.

Yes. Relativistic 'mass' is relative. If you're moving with 90% c with respect to me, I see your 'relativistic mass' as greater. But if I then catch up with you so that I'm at rest with respect to you, you have no relativistic mass, from my frame of reference.

It's not mass. It's kinetic energy, which is relative.

But doesn't the KE fail to respond in the classic style as the velocity goes up
It no longer follows that KE = 0.5 MV^2 as you put the energy in but the velocity does not go up as expected. Well that is what we are told. So how can you say KE is relativistic?
photo_guy
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Mar 13 2012, 04:43 AM)
Do you think you could argue that in court for failing to stop at a stop sign?  It was reported by the defendant Ed Wood; "I wasn't accelerating or decelerating so I must have been at rest"  "Rest is equivalent to stopped your Honour".

Everyone and everything is moving, in about 17 directions at once. That number could be maybe 13 or some other teen... I forget exactly... But no matter.

All motion is in relation to other motion from the tiniest difference to the speed of light. We're all moving relative to something else... We're all 'relatives' in one big relativistic family. When one is said to be at rest compared to what they can see of things around them.., it only means they are within the same gravity field. At least for all that counts... But that specific field is still in motion relative to everything else not moving at the same speed and direction as they... Their atomic speed of operation, or aging.., being dependent on that gravity field... The more gravity, the slower they age... And of course there are still minor differences within that over all field.., just as there are here on earth, according to direction and speed of movement within that local field... Mountain tops to sea level or between southern India and the NW Pacific both at sea level...

Earth in fact is a vehicle in space and it is undergoing the very same forces that any other vehicle would be incurring when traveling through space... It is earth's traveling at high speed through the gravity flux of space that brings on the 'feel' of gravity under our feet. Earth and humans are attracted to each other. Our own bodies are generating their own mass gravity too... Really inertia produced by the mass and velocity through the flux, exactly as with the spaceships... The two attract each other... What I see as clearly likely is that with enough velocity, through a no friction environment.., the ship's passengers will be able to carry some air with them and walk about on the outside of the spaceship without magnetic shoes, etc... They're own speed giving them their own gravity.., along with the ship creating it's own gravity too, the two will cling together, as we do with the earth.., and as the salt grains tended to do in the experiment carried out in the space lab... That salt of course not knowing what time it was... lol

Continuously applying acceleration will bring on continuing compression to the mass that is being accelerated. Acceleration does shrink things while it is on going... As with the elevator example... The elevator starts up and compresses the soles of the shoes you're wearing. They being held in place by the inertia of your body mass above. So your head doesn't start to move upward right away...

That upward moving compression of the shoe soles is then applied to your actual feet.., as even more acceleration and thus even more compression is applied to the soles of the shoe soles below... Continuing to accelerate, each bit of increased compression is applied to the soles of your shoes and works it way up through your body to your head.., which finally starts to move... And so of course the body is shorter... But there is more to it than that...

At this point the compression is released out the top of your head... So there is a limit to how much it can affect you.. Only compressing while contained within the body, working its way upward to the head. As the 'entire' body starts to move upward., the shoes will become more in tune with the previous acceleration and will be moving with it. The limit is that the more and more acceleration compression that is applied to the feet, the more and more is then released from the head. And it is only the difference that is being applied at any one time... So there is a limit to the amount of compression when using a linear rate of increasing acceleration... But there is more to it than that...

More compression can be applied to the body, making it even shorter.., if the rate of acceleration itself is increased... If the same maximum rate of speed was reached in only half the distance.., the body would be compressed that much more.., while traveling that distance.., but as the acceleration, in either case, stops.., 'whatever' compression that was contained in the body at the time will be dissipated out the top of the head, as it finally comes to be moving at the same speed as the floor... It all washes... The body is compressed by the rate of acceleration for the duration of the acceleration...
But there is more to it than that...

As the compression starts at the bottom of the shoe.., in reality there is nothing to keep the upward compression from expanding in all directions. It will actually radiate in all directions other than that from which it comes. Similar to a balloon you push your finger into... Or the photon traveling through successive slits...

The compression will start to dissipate almost instantly from the sides of the shoes.., and the tops of those shoes.., and outward laterally all the way up your body... It will compress outward to whatever point ceases to be called 'you' and then escape... Only the compression that is applied directly under the ankle will be transmitted upward. That then will be radiated out along the length of your legs.., the only part that will still be there is that which managed to retain it's upward direction and passes through the hips into the body itself. Where of course it does the same...

We're nothing more than containers of water... We're basically fluid and will behave more or less as fluid under various scenarios. While in many cases still maintaining the perspective of ourselves that we've always had in more usual circumstances... Because whatever is affecting our bodies is affecting everything else too. Keeping all the relatives together... It's nice to have family...

That stop sign of yours is one of the minor differences that occur within a gravity field... The law is written that your car must come to rest relative to the sign..., not your own rest within your vehicle...

I think relativistic mass must be relativistic because that's what it's called...? Some of us are really getting down to basics here... lol

There is the difference of gravity strengths which create the various rates of aging at the atomic level... Ergo each gravity field has it's own preferred frame of reference... When one is covering the same ground as another., but A is doing so seemingly faster than B.., there is what is called relativity... I say seemingly faster because when they both come together again.., their trip mileage planned on earth and executed in space is the same... What really happens is that they are simply aging slower in the increased gravity they incur while speeding through space... Their bodies age slower.., and their clocks run slower too... All is at rest withing the space ship... And they 'think' their year is an earth year... But only because they're not looking at earth.., and counting it's orbits around the sun... If they did.., they would *know* their clocks and minds are all being affected by the trip itself... They're not really taking less time to make the trip than was planned on before starting... They just aged slower than earth so it appears to them on return that gravity did them a favor by keeping them in partial suspended animation. Also helping to reduce the boredom of the trip... The gravity of the situation was being applied to their preferred reference frame... Like the steak in my freezer... It's been there for a year, all the time thinking it's still warm and cozy from just being cut from a steer a minute or two ago...

Nothing could control time even if it was there... How would they do that anyway...

It is gravity that does it.., and everyone knows it. They are not causing the earth do orbit faster... Because it doesn't orbit faster... Nothing is actually different except the rates of aging and therefore perceptions. There is no actual time to stretch or compress... If our perceptions are already slowed.., why would time need to adjust itself to match..? To make us well again..? How very considerate...

'Relativistic' mass never actually 'increases'... It only appears to increase to those who aren't really there... It's done with math.., using the confusion factor of 'time'...

If there are ten years between departure and return of a space ship.., and that space ship experiences only five years going by their slower perspective.., then as those on earth look at the spaceship.., it probably goes like this...

They will see in their math that all that space ship did had been compressed and 'shortened' into five years... That 'time' shrunk for them... That the distance they traveled had to be squeezed into five years.., and so the length of the ship also has to be shortened to half it's length... I mean.., if one were to continue time dilation which squeezes the distance.., and not shorten the ship..? Eventually the ship would be as long as the distance of the trip... Ya know..?

So.., when the ship and everything in it is shortened by so called 'time dilation'.., its compactness or density is supposedly increased and therefore mass is said to increase... Although inversely proportional to size so no net weight gain.

Is that about right..? Or exactly right... It's all an illusion, created by using imagined time.

Take you time and..., think about it. lol

QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 13 2012, 02:09 PM)
Take you time and..., think about it.  lol

Despite being a class 1-A: thrice mindbludgeoned stuporman, I must genuinely confess;- your astounding pH:0.0001 acerbic wit is without any vague imperceivably apparent shadow-of-a-doubt, most stunningly impressive in the feral extreme.

ps;- and I 'm not just saying that.

Ed Wood
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 13 2012, 04:41 AM)

compared to what?

itself

or

more appropriately it's own time frame.

Because acceleration is a change of position in time.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Lady Elizabeth+Mar 13 2012, 05:37 PM)

Despite being a class 1-A: thrice mindbludgeoned stuporman, I must genuinely confess;- your astounding pH:0.0001 acerbic wit is without any vague imperceivably apparent shadow-of-a-doubt, most stunningly impressive in the feral extreme.

ps;- and I 'm not just saying that.

Why thank you dear... I appreciate the compliment... And I know you have the ability to judge well... lol

I'm liking you more and more... Hope you're not a guy...

Manosapien
Only one thing is faster than light and that is the expansion of space/time it self. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected. Einstein stated that gravity is matters curvature of space/time. To go beyond that, I think that gravity is matters restriction of space/times movement. In normal empty space time ticks faster than here on Earth. I think matter is sort of pinching space/time, making it expand/tick a little slower. At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop.

So what do y'all think about my theory? Make you have some of your own?
Robittybob1
QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 13 2012, 11:07 PM)

Why thank you dear... I appreciate the compliment... And I know you have the ability to judge well... lol

I'm liking you more and more... Hope you're not a guy...

photo_guy
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Mar 14 2012, 03:22 AM)

Oh nooo... And I was about to ask for a date... lololol
Robittybob1
QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 14 2012, 03:46 AM)
Oh nooo... And I was about to ask for a date... lololol

No dates - no time - no time for dates.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 03:18 AM)
Only one thing is faster than light and that is the expansion of space/time it self. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected.
Einstein stated that gravity is matters curvature of space/time. To go beyond that, I think that gravity is matters restriction of space/times movement. In normal empty space time ticks faster than here on Earth. I think matter is sort of pinching space/time, making it expand/tick a little slower. At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop.

So what do y'all think about my theory? Make you have some of your own?

Lets back up a bit...

Take your post line by line...

***1. "The only thing faster than light is the expansion of space/time. "

First of all there is no time... So your space / time is a misnomer...

Secondly there is likely no expansion... At least at the speed you're talking...

Someone took a left turn somewhere, a few years back. They were going for a shortcut and they got lost in Disneyland... Btw.., do I need to say that's a registered trademark..? I hear you can be thrown in jail for drawing Mickey Mouse's face on your kid's birthday cake... Ah... the land of the free... lol

Beyond that I'll tell you that gravity is *extremely* faster than light. If you've been reading what I've been saying., you'll know it is thought possible that gravity's speed is absolutely *infinite*. But to be a little more conservative.., it's been measured to be at least 2 x 10^10 c... That's fast... Light it a piker compared to it...

This *could* be an explanation for entanglement and a few other oddities... But I'm still working on that one..

So there is gravity causing instantaneous communication between all masses in the universe... Even to your arms when you spin your body around... The arms fly outward because they are trying to become homo-synchronous satellites orbiting your body...

Your arms are mass that is normally attracted to your body and to earth... As they start to move, as mass.., with velocity.., ie inertia.., they will tend to move in the direction they were sent... A straight line... But they, being tethered by a physical centripetal connection to your body, means they will be held to your body in an orbit. The faster their orbit speed.., the further out they will go. Or at least try to go, so watch those shoulder joints...

Now that in itself is an indication that while WHATEVER the strength of the 'local' mass gravity field is.., ie the local sea level strength of it on earth, AND the individual masses such as your body.., and separately your arms.., gravity also retains the ability to differentiate between the most minute differences in movement of any object within those fields, relative to each other. Somewhat like a shark knowing there is a drop of blood in the ocean 2.5 miles away...

The flux of gravity is sensitive enough to know of the movement of every atom in the cosmos... And to deal with it on an individual basis... Whether singly or as a concentration of atoms. Reacting locally but that information shared instantly with every other atom in the galaxy over the 'instantaneous' flux of gravity.

But I digress...

***2. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster.

*We* haven't discovered anything of the kind. Some people think it, but it's not necessarily true. Einstein didn't believe it either. It is very possible that the edge of the cosmos is not moving outward. In lieu of that, because of minimal gravity out there., the furthest galaxies are aging extremely fast... It is said by others that galaxies at the edge are expanding outward at .9 c... This is determined by the amount of red shift.., and other means I'm sure. However, it seems likely that red shift and those other means are only a by product the major rate of aging that is going on out there.., compared to our own... I believe I figured the difference somewhere in this forum to be by a factor or 10...

***3. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the two are connected.

Rocks in space don't know they're going to die.. Cause they probably never will. So what use do they have of time. They're just a clump of atoms. Not to mention whatever created the cosmos, the particles, atoms, elements, and all that has come to be since the beginning of 'time'... How was all done BEFORE time existed... lol How do you explain anything getting done before we were here to tell it it couldn't..?

It's not that it's just a starting point for us to measure from. If one *NEEDS* time for anything to happen, how did everything happened before there was time. You'll probably say now that time existed before Einstein..? Sure... What would it have been for, if we weren't here to need it..?

We didn't even need it at one time... We were immortal... All we had to do to keep going on forever was to split... But us slow thinking humans gave all that up for sex...

So now time is our crutch to help us know how long we got... To feel our way through life but not really what's out there. It's being used for a replacement for what is real... Gravity is real...

But of course Einstein wanted to put time in the universe... So he even tried to *ignore* gravity by creating a discount factor. That was out of his mind btw... Then he called it his biggest blunder..? It wasn't.

He was Swiss... He bonded with time through all the clocks that were being invented and built in those days... Especially in Switzerland... That was the rage you know... He just loved time...

***4 Einstein stated....

He's already admitted he was wrong once... So we can't rely on what he states... You need to look at facts...

***5. Gravity is matter's restriction of space/time's movement.

Gravity is really what allows movement... Then it acts as the traffic cop. It is the both the highway over which everything travels..., and that which controls and stabilizes that traffic for the universe for actually have a highway..., to operate as it does.

***6 In empty space clocks tick faster...

Faster than what..? Earth..? Of course... Clocks were designed to work under earth's gravity only. They mechanism is running dependent on earths gravity to record earth time... But it is not matter that is pinching... It is gravity that is pinching matter. The more gravity, the slower matter works. Black holes crush all atoms to their non working condition... Everything stops completely for them then. But certainly space does not come to a stop... Space isn't even moving..., much. Nor does time slow down at all... If it exists at all it is flat across the universe... And I'm being kind with that 'if' consideration.

If I was Alex I would say you're a crank... lol But at least *you* of the two are trying to think...

Manosapien
photo guy I was not asking for your opinion, I think your 50 post before express how you feel. Just cause you go against the status quo doesnt make you smart or right. I appreciate your opinion you dont have to shove it down my throat. I was asking people other than you.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 03:18 AM)

So what do y'all think about my theory? Make you have some of your own?

I'm sorry ... I thought what you said was what you meant...

Btw.., if you believe so much in the majority rule, what are you doing posting your own ideas..? They're just as wrong as mine.., according to majority rule.

So I guess you're not trying to think after all..., as I gave you credit for...

Ciao for now...

Manosapien
QUOTE
Btw.., if you believe so much in the majority rule, what are you doing posting your own ideas..? They're just as wrong as mine.., according to majority rule.

So I guess you're not trying to think after all..., as I gave you credit for...

But the whole no time thing is not your own theory. Its some other guys published work. So to claim it as your own is wrong. All the things I say are based on observations (except for the black hole stuff). I am slowly learning the math behind it. Just because time isn't tangible doesnt mean it does not exist.

Even your rock in empty space with nothing in any direction for trillions on miles will feel the effect of "time" ( if space keeps expanding faster and faster). There is one common fact through out the cosmos everything ages from people to black holes and stars nothing is forever, except information.

Like I said earlier what separates me from bumming into my self in the past or future, If its another dimension or frame that dimension would be considered time.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 07:25 PM)

But the whole no time thing is not your own theory. Its some other guys published work. So to claim it as your own is wrong. All the things I say are based on observations (except for the black hole stuff). I am slowly learning the math behind it. Just because time isn't tangible doesnt mean it does not exist.

Even your rock in empty space with nothing in any direction for trillions on miles will feel the effect of "time" ( if space keeps expanding faster and faster). There is one common fact through out the cosmos everything ages from people to black holes and stars nothing is forever, except information.

Like I said earlier what separates me from bumming into my self in the past or future, If its another dimension or frame that dimension would be considered time.

But it was my idea.., on my own... I just couldn't believe the junk they were trying pass off in television programs about multiple universes.., folding time.., and all the rest of those delusions that were only, only, only, possible because they added time itself as a physical part of the cosmos... Another dimension or what have you... It is total insanity now that people are chasing it all over the place...

And then just a few days ago.., I found that I was not the first to come up with what I did... It was vindication... Not that I needed any.., but as everyone here points to others who think as they do.., I am happy to not be alone with some wacko thought like others have put forth...

And thanks R_C for the added confirmation that time is not a real contributor to space...

Gad... When someone is in a coma.., they aren't keeping track of time... They don't have any idea what month it is... They wake up after years.., thinking they just went to sleep... Can't anyone understand that their body ran on it's own power..? That it's even easier for rocks to do that..? Time was only for the watchers... It's not meant to DO anything... Like fold time up into a ball... Argh... It hurts even to say it...

Believe what you will.., but I'm glad I'm me....

Manosapien
You cry about how people are stuck in there ways. Yet you are very much stuck in your ways. I could care less about Einstein never meet him.
I understand you dont need time for alot of things and that is very true. Infact several of those tv shows have been about that very fact.

But you still didnt answer my question what is separating me from my past or future self?

we dont look back in a telescope and see a million Earths lined up from where we came and where we are going. If time is not separating those moments then what is?

QUOTE
***2. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster.

*We* haven't discovered anything of the kind. Some people think it, but it's not necessarily true. Einstein didn't believe it either. It is very possible that the edge of the cosmos is not moving outward. In lieu of that, because of minimal gravity out there., the furthest galaxies are aging extremely fast... It is said by others that galaxies at the edge are expanding outward at .9 c... This is determined by the amount of red shift.., and other means I'm sure. However, it seems likely that red shift and those other means are only a by product the major rate of aging that is going on out there.., compared to our own... I believe I figured the difference somewhere in this forum to be by a factor or 10...

Infact Einstein made up forces to count act the expansion. It has been measured over and over and its a fact, galaxies are expanding faster and faster away from each other. not only us
photo_guy
Btw...

QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 07:25 PM)

Just because time isn't tangible doesnt mean it does not exist.

Yes it does...

It's only from our imagination. The measuring of our earth's physical movement is a tool to help us get along with each other in our world... But he cosmos doesn't need to get along with anyone... It's the boss...

And...
QUOTE

There is one common fact through out the cosmos everything ages from people to black holes and stars nothing is forever, except information.

You got the aging part right for sure... Everything ages according to the strength of gravity affecting their bones...

But that about the information not being lost is hogwash... Every bit of previous information is used billions and billions of other times in all that OTHER information that was in place at one time... How much more can information be lost...? Like even if it's burned, shredded, soaked in water, digested by the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal.., they say it's still there... ha! Of course it's still there., or we wouldn't be here either...

Me thinks people are going nuts... Of course people can say all those bits are out there somewhere.., but who in their right might says that a particular drivers license copy is retrievable... haha... Current SR spiritualist physicists are automatically excluded from the 'right mind' category.

As for the black holes.., they are just big... They squash atoms and suns for awhile and exhaust all that ingested energy out the poles... What else can they really be..? Nothing spooky, I'm sure... And when they get too big for the conditions in their immediate area..., they stop working...

They start by pulling in stardust... That stardust that comes to form the suns and planets which become the galaxy around the hole on its way in... The early arrivals were pulled in by the black hole.., and they in turn were pulling on those behind them.... Misery likes company, you know..?

But things change in a 10 billion years... Not that time has anything to do with it. But what seems to me to happen, is that when the black hole becomes to big..., and the suns of the newly formed galaxy need to go faster than light to get around the hole..., to maintain free fall.., and not being able to.., therefore losing the speed needed to stay in orbit.., and along with the hole's increased gravity too.., it starts to pull everything in way too fast... Too fast for those doomed suns to affect what's coming behind them. They basically all of a sudden get whooshed into the hole... And since they were the hole's extended gravity outreach..., all of a sudden there's a large clear space between the black hole with not enough gravity to reach those beyond it... Those now safe suns can continue going about their business, no longer threatened by the hole...

The galaxy is in free fall... Not so spooky after all...

QUOTE (->
 QUOTE There is one common fact through out the cosmos everything ages from people to black holes and stars nothing is forever, except information.

You got the aging part right for sure... Everything ages according to the strength of gravity affecting their bones...

But that about the information not being lost is hogwash... Every bit of previous information is used billions and billions of other times in all that OTHER information that was in place at one time... How much more can information be lost...? Like even if it's burned, shredded, soaked in water, digested by the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal.., they say it's still there... ha! Of course it's still there., or we wouldn't be here either...

Me thinks people are going nuts... Of course people can say all those bits are out there somewhere.., but who in their right might says that a particular drivers license copy is retrievable... haha... Current SR spiritualist physicists are automatically excluded from the 'right mind' category.

As for the black holes.., they are just big... They squash atoms and suns for awhile and exhaust all that ingested energy out the poles... What else can they really be..? Nothing spooky, I'm sure... And when they get too big for the conditions in their immediate area..., they stop working...

They start by pulling in stardust... That stardust that comes to form the suns and planets which become the galaxy around the hole on its way in... The early arrivals were pulled in by the black hole.., and they in turn were pulling on those behind them.... Misery likes company, you know..?

But things change in a 10 billion years... Not that time has anything to do with it. But what seems to me to happen, is that when the black hole becomes to big..., and the suns of the newly formed galaxy need to go faster than light to get around the hole..., to maintain free fall.., and not being able to.., therefore losing the speed needed to stay in orbit.., and along with the hole's increased gravity too.., it starts to pull everything in way too fast... Too fast for those doomed suns to affect what's coming behind them. They basically all of a sudden get whooshed into the hole... And since they were the hole's extended gravity outreach..., all of a sudden there's a large clear space between the black hole with not enough gravity to reach those beyond it... Those now safe suns can continue going about their business, no longer threatened by the hole...

The galaxy is in free fall... Not so spooky after all...

Like I said earlier what separates me from bumming into my self in the past or future, If its another dimension or frame that dimension would be considered time.

You know because you fear that stuff.., it shows how much you really do feel that time is really tangible... That is separates you from yourself... Do you know that you just *moved*..? There's nothing mysterious about it... It doesn't require time for you to move... It only requires some muscle power...

You know time travel been proven to not be worth it anyway... You might think of going back to bet on the other horse.., or going ahead a year maybe to read the headlines... Those who have done so have found that when they went back.., they were just as stupid as they were the first time. They couldn't even remember that the horse the were betting on was going to lose.... Those that traveled forward.., same thing.! They went ahead.., read the headlines.., returned.., and they were again just as stupid... They couldn't remember even reading the papers.., much less what was on them...

Now if you really think about it.., you'll see that if you fear bumping into yourself.., without your imagined time to protect you.., it only shows how entrenched you are in thinking that an imagined quantity, used only for measuring physical things.., is somehow a real force in the cosmos... That you believe it is tangible and that it does control things... Yes it does... It controls Walter Disney's fantasy land... lol

You need to do that thinking I thought you were doing...

AlexG
What a bunch of nonsense that was.
Manosapien
QUOTE
But you still didnt answer my question what is separating me from my past or future self?

we dont look back in a telescope and see a million Earths lined up from where we came and where we are going. If time is not separating those moments then what is?

Again you failed to answer the question above. Want to try for a 3rd time?

QUOTE (->
 QUOTE But you still didnt answer my question what is separating me from my past or future self?we dont look back in a telescope and see a million Earths lined up from where we came and where we are going. If time is not separating those moments then what is?

Again you failed to answer the question above. Want to try for a 3rd time?

You know because you fear that stuff.., it shows how much you really do feel that time is really tangible... That is separates you from yourself... Do you know that you just *moved*..? There's nothing mysterious about it... It doesn't require time for you to move... It only requires some muscle power...

You know time travel been proven to not be worth it anyway... You might think of going back to bet on the other horse.., or going ahead a year maybe to read the headlines... Those who have done so have found that when they went back.., they were just as stupid as they were the first time. They couldn't even remember that the horse the were betting on was going to lose.... Those that traveled forward.., same thing.! They went ahead.., read the headlines.., returned.., and they were again just as stupid... They couldn't remember even reading the papers.., much less what was on them...

Now if you really think about it.., you'll see that if you fear bumping into yourself.., without your imagined time to protect you.., it only shows how entrenched you are in thinking that an imagined quantity, used only for measuring physical things.., is somehow a real force in the cosmos... That you believe it is tangible and that it does control things... Yes it does... It controls Walter Disney's fantasy land... lol

You need to do that thinking I thought you were doing...

What you just said was crazy. People time travel every day they just forget now your grasping for straws. You where smart about some of the not needing time stuff.

Just because you think of crazy *** doesnt make it smart thinking...
Ciao...
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 09:40 PM)
You cry about how people are stuck in there ways. Yet you are very much stuck in your ways. I could care less about Einstein never meet him.
I understand you dont need time for alot of things and that is very true. Infact several of those tv shows have been about that very fact.

But you still didnt answer my question what is separating me from my past or future self?

we dont look back in a telescope and see a million Earths lined up from where we came and where we are going. If time is not separating those moments then what is?

Infact Einstein made up forces to count act the expansion. It has been measured over and over and its a fact, galaxies are expanding faster and faster away from each other. not only us

Nahh.. I'm not crying about anything... I'm enjoying myself. It's everone else's problem if they can't see the forest for the trees... I'm just trying to help... Einstein himself he made mistakes... He's not infallible.... But I seem to be in this regard... lol No one has said why I'm wrong... They just don't want to go against the flow that their reli/// profession is based solely on 'faith'...

The TV shows pull in the viewers who will believe anything... I didn't... So I thought about it and came up with the theory of everything... There are no paradox's.., no cosmological constants.., no fudge factors, loose ends, etc... And the math is easy too. It doesn't include time.

Did you know there's a pretty hefty book out about Einstein's Mistakes..?
Here's a review of it from Amazon.

"
Fresh insights into aspects of Einstein we don't usually consider: his mistakes and the role they played in the discovery of his theories.

Although Einstein was the greatest genius of the twentieth century, many of his ground-breaking discoveries were blighted by mistakes, ranging from serious misconceptions in physics to blatant errors in mathematics. For instance, Einstein's first theoretical proof of the famous formula E = mc2 was incomplete and only approximately valid; he struggled with this problem for many years, but he never found a complete proof (better mathematicians did). In this provocative forensic biography, Hans C. Ohanian dissects this and other mistakes and places them in the context of Einstein's turbulent life and times. Einstein was often navigating in a fog of irrational and mystical inspirations, but his profound intuition about physics permitted him to reach his goal despite—and sometimes because of—the mistakes he made along the way. Einstein's uncanny ability to use his mistakes subconsciously as stepping stones toward his revolutionary theories was one hallmark of his genius.
"

He wasn't an infallible god... He just got lucky... But he still missed the brass ring. He put imagined time in place, instead of physical gravity..., which everyone knows.., is the real cause of aging and clocks running slower... Gravity could have made his day...

You say he made up forces to counter act the expansion... Yes. He didn't believe his own figures so he went ahead and fudged them... Now do you see that he was just human..? He was going to 'make' things fit because he was absolutely positive he was right... But of course when one has to fudge, they need to admit they're wrong... Then he thought time was necessary too, just as you...

It's not.

Everything happens in a physical sequence of course... And what is separating all those 'moments' of physical action you mention is our brain... They are being recorded sequentially in our brain. That's as far as it goes... The sun doesn't follow you around... Your brain knows when it sees things happening that it is seeing it live.., and that it's the only time it can do that... It's over when it's over you know..? Like when the fat lady sings..? Time isn't needed to keep the first part of a physical happening from moving ahead to run over the last part of that physical happening... All that kind of thinking is pretty much just wishful thinking. That one can understand physics... lol

photo_guy
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 14 2012, 10:44 PM)
What a bunch of nonsense that was.

Of course it is to you Alex... We all know you can't follow a simple thought that is more than a single line long... Like the quote above... That's your speed.

photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 11:11 PM)

Again you failed to answer the question above. Want to try for a 3rd time?

What you just said was crazy. People time travel every day they just forget now your grasping for straws. You where smart about some of the not needing time stuff.

Just because you think of crazy *** doesnt make it smart thinking...
Ciao...

Ah.., you're quoting yourself. You don't want to let people in on the fact that I did in fact answer the question..?

Read the previous and following posts of mine and you will see I answered it quite succinctly...

QUOTE

What you just said was crazy.

Of course it was... I'm just trying to keep up, you know..?

But the separation of actions being done in the brain is all the answer there really is... If you have one.., to record those separate instances and know it isn't Ground Hog's Day...

That was a great fun movie btw... Where he did learn to not be as stupid each time he went back... But of course, that's what we're here for isn't it... To develop movie material for comedians... lol

photo_guy
QUOTE (Lady Elizabeth+Mar 13 2012, 05:37 PM)

Despite being a class 1-A: thrice mindbludgeoned stuporman, I must genuinely confess;- your astounding pH:0.0001 acerbic wit is without any vague imperceivably apparent shadow-of-a-doubt, most stunningly impressive in the feral extreme.

ps;- and I 'm not just saying that.

I wanted to let you know I'm going to forego asking for a date..., but I am going to frame this quote of yours...

I fall out of my chair every time I read it... lololol
Manosapien
Photo guy I was saying there are TV shows that talk about the concept of not needing time, but you just read what you want or have no reading comprehension. And no one said Einstein was never wrong, in that case he'd be god. I think you just look to pick fights.
AlexG
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 06:43 PM)
Photo guy I was saying there are TV shows that talk about the concept of not needing time, but you just read what you want or have no reading comprehension. And no one said Einstein was never wrong, in that case he'd be god. I think you just look to pick fights.

When you're talking to p_g, you're dealing with a true nutcase.

He's said himself that he knows nothing about math or physics, or, for that matter, any branch of science.

Just a wacko.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 14 2012, 11:43 PM)
Photo guy I was saying there are TV shows that talk about the concept of not needing time, but you just read what you want or have no reading comprehension. And no one said Einstein was never wrong, in that case he'd be god. I think you just look to pick fights.

Don't get nervous... I took what you said the way you said it... I just haven't seen those particular shows...

What I see is sci-fi sensationalism... And supposedly intelligent physicists are making it happen...

And as for picking a fight..? Don't you remember it was you who told me you didn't want me to answer your questions..? That you knew right from wrong, good from evil, black from white.., but you still had your own reasons to think they were wrong...? So you didn't want me to butt in..? Huh..?

You are S75, aren't you... Ya can't fool me. And he's been strangely quite here for the entire thread... That's not *like* him... lol Common now.., fess up.

photo_guy
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 15 2012, 12:02 AM)
When you're talking to p_g, you're dealing with a true nutcase.

He's said himself that he knows nothing about math or physics, or, for that matter, any branch of science.

Just a wacko.

Alex

I've read you picked up a BA in physics back around the time of Gaililao...

Did you know him..?
AlexG
QUOTE
I've read you picked up a BA in physics back around the time of Gaililao...

It a BS, not a BA, idiot. Have you ever gone to school anywhere? Did you ever learn anything?

Yeah, I thought not.
Manosapien
QUOTE
And as for picking a fight..? Don't you remember it was you who told me you didn't want me to answer your questions..? That you knew right from wrong, good from evil, black from white.., but you still had your own reasons to think they were wrong...? So you didn't want me to butt in..? Huh..?

Like I said earlier you already voiced your opinion in the previous 50 post. I wanted more than one guys point of view, over and over.
photo_guy
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 15 2012, 12:44 AM)

Like I said earlier you already voiced your opinion in the previous 50 post. I wanted more than one guys point of view, over and over.

I wasn't stopping anyone from responding...

And you didn't have to read mine... Pretend I didn't send it.

I still think you're S75... So I'll let you and Alex have your last words... I got some more points in to those who can recognize higher level thought...

Btw.., that one you told me to butt out on was my 200th post... Except for burning Alex and S75 to ashes with a few of them.., they were all basically on the same thought...

Something like the 1743 posts that Alex has repeated the words 'crank', word salad', bag of hammers', idiot, and a few other examples of his intelligence... Now there is a tiresome run of nothing that shouldn't be allowed. If I was a moderator people who made those kinds of posts would be gone after a *single* warning... My posts are least was intelligent, logical, provable, and factual... Not just on what people want them to be, because they can't comprehend much beyond what they're told...

Alex now he thinks a *BS* from Galileo's day is something to brag about... At least the initial are appropriate in his case... Alex has a BS degree..

I thought so all along... lol

Oh.., and he talks to himself too... lol Babble, babble, babble... I think he needs changing...
synthsin75
QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 14 2012, 06:20 PM)
You are S75, aren't you... Ya can't fool me. And he's been strangely quite here for the entire thread... That's not *like* him... lol Common now.., fess up.

Now you can add paranoia to your list of mental ailments. There's probably at least a handful of threads you've posted to that haven't piqued my interest. And just because Mano seems to share my opinion of you doesn't even mean I agree with what he says.
synthsin75
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 13 2012, 09:18 PM)
Only one thing is faster than light and that is the expansion of space/time it self. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected. Einstein stated that gravity is matters curvature of space/time. To go beyond that, I think that gravity is matters restriction of space/times movement. In normal empty space time ticks faster than here on Earth. I think matter is sort of pinching space/time, making it expand/tick a little slower. At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop.

So what do y'all think about my theory? Make you have some of your own?

I don't think it's appropriate to say that the expansion of space is the reason for the progression of time. There are numerous phenomenon that occur with respect to time, so you'd have to make a much more concrete connection between the two. Keep in mind that coincidence doesn't necessarily mean causation.

It's fair enough to say gravity restricts motion. As the saying goes, matter tells spacetime how to curve and spacetime tells matter how to move.

Do you understand that time near a black hole is only observed to slow by a remote observer? The near observer would still see his own time progressing normally.
photo_guy
QUOTE (synthsin75+Mar 15 2012, 01:43 AM)
I don't think it's appropriate to say that the expansion of space is the reason for the progression of time. There are numerous phenomenon that occur with respect to time, so you'd have to make a much more concrete connection between the two. Keep in mind that coincidence doesn't necessarily mean causation.

It's fair enough to say gravity restricts motion. As the saying goes, matter tells spacetime how to curve and spacetime tells matter how to move.

Do you understand that time near a black hole is only observed to slow by a remote observer? The near observer would still see his own time progressing normally.

If space 'moved', you'd be right on... Leaving time out of it of course.

But the thing I'm posting for is something else..

What is the big problem here with the continuous need for reminding people that one gravity field is not the same as another gravity field. That people are normal here but the other people will believe they're normal too. Isn't that a little too unnecessary and confusing..?

Even if you *must* call it 'time dilation' instead of 'particular rates of aging' in these various places.., it shouldn't be any more difficult than the earth having 24 different time zones... Everyone is at rest in their own time zone...

So on earth it would be...

Let's see... It's 10 pm est... so it's only 7 pm pst... Everyone knows that...

In space it would be...

Let's see... It's 60 minutes to an hour on earth.., so it's 72 years to an hour at the black hole... Everyone knows that... lol

synthsin75
QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 14 2012, 08:11 PM)

If space 'moved', you'd be right on... Leaving time out of it of course.

But the thing I'm posting for is something else..

What is the big problem here with the continuous need for reminding people that one gravity field is not the same as another gravity field. That people are normal here but the other people will believe they're normal too. Isn't that a little too unnecessary and confusing..?

Even if you *must* call it 'time dilation' instead of 'particular rates of aging' in these various places.., it shouldn't be any more difficult than the earth having 24 different time zones... Everyone is at rest in their own time zone...

So on earth it would be...

Let's see... It's 10 pm est... so it's only 7 pm pst... Everyone knows that...

In space it would be...

Let's see... It's 60 minutes to an hour on earth.., so it's 72 years to an hour at the black hole... Everyone knows that... lol

First, that wasn't a response to you, you paranoid troll.

Second, the only thing necessary in physics are those things that have been proven to actually occur.
photo_guy
QUOTE (synthsin75+Mar 15 2012, 02:41 AM)
First, that wasn't a response to you, you paranoid troll.

Second, the only thing necessary in physics are those things that have been proven to actually occur.

I know.., you were responding to yourself so everyone would think you're not the op here...

But who cares... I brought it up as a new point... Based on your propensity for useless, officious, prattling...

It's like you're proud you understand that everyone has their own 'at rest' condition.., and you want to make a major point of it... A lot of people seem to make a big deal of it and it's not really... Do you think it is...?

We here on earth are just an example of what's going on throughout the cosmos, you know..? Everyone lifeform thinks they're the greatest., and that everyone else is running to fast or two slow. Just seems like they should all be taken for granted...

And there was a touch of humor in there.., but I guess you missed it.

I'll have to agree with you on the last part at least... Physics is out to work with those things that have been proven to actually occur...

And that's exactly why I keep asking what is time doing in the universe..? Humans *think* it's there... Actually they know its there, cause they put it there.

But as far as time goes.., have you seen it, , touched it, smelled it, heard it, weighed it, tasted it, or I might even ask if you've ever measured it...?

Yes I think so... Didn't you make reference once to a second being 1/60th of a minute..? lol Wow.., that's cool. Good thinking... You've discovered a way to prove time exists... You're almost as good as Alex..., who just yesterday declared that 'relative mass is relative...

Gad... No wonder we're so far behind the Vogons...

Mazulu
QUOTE (synthsin75+Mar 15 2012, 02:41 AM)
Second, the only thing necessary in physics are those things that have been proven to actually occur.

And are quantifiable. Something can be proven to occur, but if it's not quantifiable, then it's not physics, in fact, it's not scientific. Examples include: true love, hate, enjoying a good meal. These things actually occur, but they're not quantifiable.
AlexG
How do you prove true love exists?
Robittybob1
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 15 2012, 03:34 AM)
How do you prove true love exists?

With blood tests to see if there is a hormonal response. Even EEG brain wave patterns could identify real love from pretense.
AlexG
QUOTE (Robittybob1+Mar 14 2012, 10:55 PM)
With blood tests to see if there is a hormonal response. Even EEG brain wave patterns could identify real love from pretense.

Source?

Are you suggesting that true love is just a hormonal response?
Robittybob1
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 15 2012, 04:02 AM)
Source?

Are you suggesting that true love is just a hormonal response?

Haven't you been keeping up with the latest developments. Note I said "could". I said this because you asked "How?" so I'm allowed to make suggestions OK.
I'm sure "love" responses have been tested. Just take my word for it. LOL.
photo_guy
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 15 2012, 03:34 AM)
How do you prove true love exists?

The same way you prove time exists...

AlexG
QUOTE
Just take my word for it

Riigghhtt.....
synthsin75
QUOTE (photo_guy+Mar 14 2012, 09:19 PM)
I know.., you were responding to yourself so everyone would think you're not the op here...

You're delusional. You are the one who continually condemns me for sticking to verified science. Now you want to say I am someone who doesn't forward accepted science. Which is it? If it's the former then I'm not Mano. If it's the latter then you have to eat a lot of your own words.

But that logic is probably well beyond you.
Mazulu
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 15 2012, 03:34 AM)
How do you prove true love exists?

That's my point! You can't prove that true love exists in an experiment. But it's something that I remember experiencing when I was young.

Actually, you can prove that true love exists ... It is something that I prove to my fiance every chance I get.
Robittybob1
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 15 2012, 04:30 AM)

Riigghhtt.....

Oh ye of little faith!
jbsurfaceskin
QUOTE (Manosapien+Mar 12 2012, 10:16 PM)
Some of my thoughts on space theory. I see many similarities between space/time and water. Just how they both move and flow. Only one thing is faster than light and that is the expansion of space/time it self. We have discovered that space is expanding faster and faster. This is the reason why time is always moving forward since the the two are connected. Einstein stated that gravity is matters curvature of space/time. To go beyond that, I think that gravity is matters restriction of space/times movement. In normal empty space time ticks faster than here on Earth. I think matter is sort of pinching space/time, making it expand/tick a little slower. At gravities extreme a black hole, you can see this effect much clearer since they say if you park a space ship next to a black hole its clock would almost come to a stop. So this must mean space is almost coming to a stop.

For the purposes of this hypothesis I ask you to start by accepting the theory that there was a singularity that preceded everything all be it a highly unstable singularity. By definition there was no time no space no material. If the universe somehow emerged explosively from this singularity (which it appears to have) what's to say it doesn't still have a relationship with its former state, for example the super position of particles or quantum entanglement, both time and space defying at the very least. One could reasonably hypothesise that the universe might, like a coil bent out of shape desire to return to its former shape.
How Would material and space attempt to return to singularity? wouldn't space attempt to enter material and material space? what best describes space attempting to enter material like a large planet for instance if not gravity? What best describes material attempting to enter space if not universal expansion?
What is it necessary to generate in order for this movement to happen? time. where there is expansion an increasing amount of time where there is compression a slowing of time. Playing this theory out the infinite galaxys become infinite black hole's or successfully reformed pieces of singularity.
With no material to power expansion it reverses back to singularity. This may have happened an infinite amount of times
Mekigal
QUOTE (mathman+Mar 12 2012, 10:52 PM)

Where did you get this idea?

The clock appears to slow down for a distant observer. In the space ship time proceeds normally.

I heard that on T.V. The expansion of the universe is speeding up .Is it true ?
Mekigal
QUOTE (Mazulu+Mar 15 2012, 03:32 AM)
And are quantifiable. Something can be proven to occur, but if it's not quantifiable, then it's not physics, in fact, it's not scientific. Examples include: true love, hate, enjoying a good meal. These things actually occur, but they're not quantifiable.

Love is . Wish it was not true . It has to do with the compliment . Or the Admiration would be better put . The genuineness of the admiration. Response is gauged off the effectiveness of it . The more the admiration is realized by the subject the stronger the feelings of love . It becomes even more intense when it is some one admired admiring the one being admired . The feeling of love is stronger than lets say a family member , even a child in that moment of admiration . It is quantifiable . You just got to know what the data is.
You don't want to know . It is the reason for my Ban at other places . To think I was not as shocked as the people that banned me is crazy . I was as I just found out when I had posted it . Like hrs. before . I am sure they are still haunted by my deleted posts . Specially when they find out it is the true. I am just getting over the shock my self .

Admiration by some one you admire invokes feeling of love . Is there such a thing as unconditional love ? I use to think so . Maybe there is still ? It is illusive if there is.
niels
QUOTE (AlexG+Mar 15 2012, 03:34 AM)
How do you prove true love exists?

yeah, perhaps you should listen to people asking about how do we prove that something EXIST.

Start considering the very concept of existence / what is meant by saying that something is into existense

Are we dealing with socalled physical existense, why is it so obvious to many people that socalled physical concepts like matter in the form of tactile temperature vision weight etc etc has an existence whereas other concepts like hate fear love has no existence.

Is it perthaps fundamentally about scales more than a question about totally different worlds.

I would suggest starting looking at the concept of scales and interferability with human senses, such like our PHYSICAL senses (vision etc) as opposed to MIND senses (emotions fear hate love) and qualia

Where is the line between physics and metaphysics. IMO it is a question about scale fundamentally. Cosmos is represented (is into existence) in all scales, and our socalled physical reality is a scale created by human mind in this process of how mind decodes (observes interferes with) cosmos and translating cosmos into this vivid impression of REAL and PHYSICAL.

I have no problem in accepting mainstream definitions / I am just asking with low voice about FUNDAMENTAL differences.

So YES matter IS physical and emotions and qualia are not physical BUT according to my way of thinkin they are both into EXISTENCE.
Mekigal
True love I don't know about that ? What is that ? The feeling of love yes that is real . True love is a different subject and maybe a myth . It is a nice buzz word to throw around and sounds just lovely .
I don't know if you can quantify True love ?
Feeling of love you can . That is the closes to love I have found . You can invoke happy feeling of being loved in a subject . To a point they will say : Now I know you love me.
Our Now I believe you love Me , but then when you stop stimulating the subject there feelings of love diminish. It is like working fish up into a frenzy by chumming the fishing hole. Once the feed is gone the fish start to settle back out of there excited state of being .
True love ? No I better not tell the joke
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