QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:00 AM)
If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
I don't care for statements.
I only care for explanations.
I already did but you wouldn't admit and comprehend it so I will just let you stay funny.
I don't care for statements.
I only care for explanations.
I already did but you wouldn't admit and comprehend it so I will just let you stay funny.
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 12:03 AM)
I already did but you wouldn't admit and comprehend it so I will just let you stay funny.
You did not explain why -
"virtual photons" (not bozons) are not little billiard balls that "collide" with the ions
...As you yourself said.
I asked you: WHY aren't bosons "like like billiard balls that 'collide' with the ions"?
You never provided an answer. Despite your false insistence that you did.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
You did not explain why -
QUOTE
"virtual photons" (not bozons) are not little billiard balls that "collide" with the ions
...As you yourself said.
I asked you: WHY aren't bosons "like like billiard balls that 'collide' with the ions"?
You never provided an answer. Despite your false insistence that you did.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
QUOTE (rpenner+Aug 15 2007, 11:54 AM)
I meant to ask last night (but I got horribly Ill) what I was getting wrong?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, my memory failed me and I associated your name with this comment. You said something about photons to Byrn two pages earlier and your name stuck in my head.
LearmSceince's statement seems to come from a common (especially in the more mathy of the pop-physics books and undergraduate textbooks) reading of too much information into Feynman diagrams. It's a mostly harmless error, like discussing the properties of the "carry digits" of an addition, but it's not strongly helpful to the understanding of physics. It says more more about the algorithm than the physics.
Speaking of feeling sick, I think the only way to quiet the current feud is if I start with QM and SR foundations and without math calculate predictions of QFT which can be and have been tested by experiment, thus showing that QED generalizes to all forces except gravity and ending the debate. How I will "... without math calculate ..." seems to be the only sticking point, but at least then I won't need to write out high-dimensional integrals, like the ones solved to give this result:
http://hussle.harvard.edu/~gabrielse/gabri...ureConstant.pdf
To compare theory and prediction, you need numbers and that pretty much demands you need a logical way to process numbers. We call that math. QED was a complete physical theory as of Dirac. But Feynman (and others) got a Nobel prize for discovering how to do Dirac's math.
Aaah, right. It's cool.
Yeah, I mentioned to Bryn that as far as I could remember that the Electromagnetic force was mediated by Virtual Photons, but I wasn't 100% sure.
I'm not too worried about solving the dispute between myself and Farsight, I think at this point that the best we can hope for is to agree to disagree.
I'd like it if someone could show me why my objection was irrelevant though.
I know that QED predicts that photons can travel above and below c, but always travel at an average of c - but I always thought that was a result of the HUP.
I'd still like to know how one expects to change c without changing εₒ, or call gravity a gradient in εₒ (and everything that seems to imply).
And I'd still like to know how if particle-antiparticle are simple untying knotted photons, then why we get systems of three photons or more from two particles.
Sorry, my memory failed me and I associated your name with this comment. You said something about photons to Byrn two pages earlier and your name stuck in my head.
LearmSceince's statement seems to come from a common (especially in the more mathy of the pop-physics books and undergraduate textbooks) reading of too much information into Feynman diagrams. It's a mostly harmless error, like discussing the properties of the "carry digits" of an addition, but it's not strongly helpful to the understanding of physics. It says more more about the algorithm than the physics.
Speaking of feeling sick, I think the only way to quiet the current feud is if I start with QM and SR foundations and without math calculate predictions of QFT which can be and have been tested by experiment, thus showing that QED generalizes to all forces except gravity and ending the debate. How I will "... without math calculate ..." seems to be the only sticking point, but at least then I won't need to write out high-dimensional integrals, like the ones solved to give this result:
http://hussle.harvard.edu/~gabrielse/gabri...ureConstant.pdf
To compare theory and prediction, you need numbers and that pretty much demands you need a logical way to process numbers. We call that math. QED was a complete physical theory as of Dirac. But Feynman (and others) got a Nobel prize for discovering how to do Dirac's math.
Aaah, right. It's cool.
Yeah, I mentioned to Bryn that as far as I could remember that the Electromagnetic force was mediated by Virtual Photons, but I wasn't 100% sure.
I'm not too worried about solving the dispute between myself and Farsight, I think at this point that the best we can hope for is to agree to disagree.
I'd like it if someone could show me why my objection was irrelevant though.
I know that QED predicts that photons can travel above and below c, but always travel at an average of c - but I always thought that was a result of the HUP.
I'd still like to know how one expects to change c without changing εₒ, or call gravity a gradient in εₒ (and everything that seems to imply).
And I'd still like to know how if particle-antiparticle are simple untying knotted photons, then why we get systems of three photons or more from two particles.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:09 AM)
You did not explain why -
...As you yourself said.
I asked you: WHY aren't bosons "like like billiard balls that 'collide' with the ions"?
You never provided an answer. Despite your false insistence that you did.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
Does "virtual" tell you anything? No? I thought so
...As you yourself said.
I asked you: WHY aren't bosons "like like billiard balls that 'collide' with the ions"?
You never provided an answer. Despite your false insistence that you did.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
Does "virtual" tell you anything? No? I thought so
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 12:11 AM)
Does "virtual" tell you anything? No? I thought so
Then elaborate.
Then elaborate.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:12 AM)
Then elaborate.
Try thinking instead of perennially demanding that others do it for you. This way you will never learn anything. It shows. So, what does "virtual particle" tell you? Put on yout thinking cap, do some reading, come back with an answer.
BTW: have you solved the simple problem of getting the ion speed when you know E (don't ask me what is E, you should try at least this on yor own).
Try thinking instead of perennially demanding that others do it for you. This way you will never learn anything. It shows. So, what does "virtual particle" tell you? Put on yout thinking cap, do some reading, come back with an answer.
BTW: have you solved the simple problem of getting the ion speed when you know E (don't ask me what is E, you should try at least this on yor own).
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 12:16 AM)
Try thinking instead of perennially demanding...
Try elaborating.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
Try elaborating.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:23 AM)
Try elaborating.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
It will do you no good, you will never learn by asking never ending questions and asking other to explain things to you. It shows quite clearly. So, I will not give you full answers (turns out that they are useless in your case, you never learn anything) but I will give you hints. So, try reading on the standard model, on virtual particles. You will quickly understand how naive is the theory you made up 5 minutes after you leaned the word "bozo"ns.
PS: try solving the simple problem I gave you, it will buld your confidence that you can perform real physics. If you can't solve it, there is no hope for you. You will only be here trying to fool others into believing that you are doing physics and the only one that you will be fooling is....you.
Again, If you're going to say that I am wrong, then have the common decency to explain why I am wrong, rather than just state that I am wrong.
It will do you no good, you will never learn by asking never ending questions and asking other to explain things to you. It shows quite clearly. So, I will not give you full answers (turns out that they are useless in your case, you never learn anything) but I will give you hints. So, try reading on the standard model, on virtual particles. You will quickly understand how naive is the theory you made up 5 minutes after you leaned the word "bozo"ns.
PS: try solving the simple problem I gave you, it will buld your confidence that you can perform real physics. If you can't solve it, there is no hope for you. You will only be here trying to fool others into believing that you are doing physics and the only one that you will be fooling is....you.
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 12:32 AM)
It will do you no good, you will never learn by asking never ending questions and asking other to explain things to you.
If this was any other situation, then you might have an arguement. However, you made a statement that "bosons do not act like billiard balls", you then said "because they're virtual", yet you never elaborated further. All I want you to do, is elaborate on your statements. To ensure your argument's integrity, this is what you need to do. Realise that if you do not elaborate on your own statements, then they will be rejected, and your concession will be assured.
If this was any other situation, then you might have an arguement. However, you made a statement that "bosons do not act like billiard balls", you then said "because they're virtual", yet you never elaborated further. All I want you to do, is elaborate on your statements. To ensure your argument's integrity, this is what you need to do. Realise that if you do not elaborate on your own statements, then they will be rejected, and your concession will be assured.
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 15 2007, 12:10 AM)
Yeah, I mentioned to Bryn that as far as I could remember that the Electromagnetic force was mediated by Virtual Photons
I think that we three (including LearnScience) have made the mistake of mentioning this to Bryn. Upon learning about it, he quickly concocted a theory in which little billiard balls are colliding with the ions used in the Ives-Stilwell experiment. So, instead of explaining to him the simple workings of the Ives experiment we got him sidtracked on a "theory" that is taking him even farther from understanding the experiment and how it relates to time dilation (I know now that he will never understand it).
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:41 AM)
If this was any other situation, then you might have an arguement. However, you made a statement that "bosons do not act like billiard balls", you then said "because they're virtual", yet you never elaborated further. All I want you to do, is elaborate on your statements.
I know you do , but this way you will never learn anything. You don't learn anything anyway but it is worth trying a different tact than giving you all the answers (rpenner , Trippy, Learnscience all tried that with you and it didn't work). I am a little different, I will make you work for this answers. This way, you might loose some of your arrogance and gain some respect for what it takes us in order to learn real science, not the mockery that you put up.
Who cares? You end up the loser anyway by not learning (again!) anything. make a little effort and learn some real science, a little bit will not kill you. Try proving Euler's characterisation wrong
I know you do , but this way you will never learn anything. You don't learn anything anyway but it is worth trying a different tact than giving you all the answers (rpenner , Trippy, Learnscience all tried that with you and it didn't work). I am a little different, I will make you work for this answers. This way, you might loose some of your arrogance and gain some respect for what it takes us in order to learn real science, not the mockery that you put up.
QUOTE
Realise that if you do not elaborate on your own statements, then they will be rejected, and your concession will be assured.
Who cares? You end up the loser anyway by not learning (again!) anything. make a little effort and learn some real science, a little bit will not kill you. Try proving Euler's characterisation wrong
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 12:47 AM)
I think that we three (including LearnScience) have made the mistake of mentioning this to Bryn.
And how does a virtual particle 'mediate' force, rather than, through kinetic energy transfer (collisions)?
Nobody ever explained that, neither you nor Trip.
And how does a virtual particle 'mediate' force, rather than, through kinetic energy transfer (collisions)?
Nobody ever explained that, neither you nor Trip.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:53 AM)
And how does a virtual particle 'mediate' force, rather than, through kinetic energy transfer (collisions)?
Nobody ever explained that, neither you nor Trip.
Trippy gave you a very good link, try reading on it .I gave you another link to the standard model, try reading.
Nobody ever explained that, neither you nor Trip.
Trippy gave you a very good link, try reading on it .I gave you another link to the standard model, try reading.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:53 PM)
And how does a virtual particle 'mediate' force, rather than, through kinetic energy transfer (collisions)?
Nobody ever explained that, neither you nor Trip.
Read the link I provided you with.
Also, Trip didn't explain it because Trip is primarily an Environmental Chemist, not a particle physicist (something I have stated repeatedly on this forum).
I just happen to be an Environmental Chemist with a good background knowledge of physics, because like environmental chemistry, and Geology, it's a field of interest to me.
Nobody ever explained that, neither you nor Trip.
Read the link I provided you with.
Also, Trip didn't explain it because Trip is primarily an Environmental Chemist, not a particle physicist (something I have stated repeatedly on this forum).
I just happen to be an Environmental Chemist with a good background knowledge of physics, because like environmental chemistry, and Geology, it's a field of interest to me.
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 12:53 AM)
Who cares?
If you make statements, be prepared to back them up to your full ability, with explanations and elaboration. Otherwise, don't make the statements to begin with.
If you make statements, be prepared to back them up to your full ability, with explanations and elaboration. Otherwise, don't make the statements to begin with.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 01:03 AM)
If you make statements, be prepared to back them up to your full ability, with explanations and elaboration.
I am but the only way of teaching you anything is by making you work for it, all other attempts have failed. Sadly, Euler's characterisation turns out so true.
I am but the only way of teaching you anything is by making you work for it, all other attempts have failed. Sadly, Euler's characterisation turns out so true.
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 15 2007, 01:02 AM)
Read the link I provided you with.
It doesn't explain how a virtual particle interacts with other matter. It doesn't elaborate on whether it's a particle-collision with the matter, or anything else.
You're welcome to write in your own words, in order to answer the above.
It doesn't explain how a virtual particle interacts with other matter. It doesn't elaborate on whether it's a particle-collision with the matter, or anything else.
You're welcome to write in your own words, in order to answer the above.
The Question: "If virtual particles do not collide with matter, then how do they interact with matter?"
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 01:08 AM)
It doesn't elaborate on whether it's a particle-collision with the matter
...because it ...isn't. You made up a bogus theory 5 minutes after you learned about the existence of "virtual particles" and now you wonder why real physics does not correspond to the phony, cartoonish version of "Bryn physics".
...because it ...isn't. You made up a bogus theory 5 minutes after you learned about the existence of "virtual particles" and now you wonder why real physics does not correspond to the phony, cartoonish version of "Bryn physics".
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+)
The Question: "If virtual particles do not collide with matter, then how do they interact with matter?"
QUOTE (Dallas+)
...because it ...doesn't
Then explain how forces have an effect on matter, if the particles which 'mediate' force, do not interact with matter?
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 01:08 PM)
It doesn't explain how a virtual particle interacts with other matter. It doesn't elaborate on whether it's a particle-collision with the matter, or anything else.
You're welcome to write in your own words, in order to answer the above.
And this from the wiki page: http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cf...0000&topicID=13
Yes it does.
In the image above and to the right, the solid lines correspond to real particles (of momentum p1 and so on), while the dotted line corresponds to a virtual particle carrying momentum k. For example, if the solid lines were to correspond to electrons interacting by means of the electromagnetic interaction, the dotted line would correspond to the exchange of a virtual photon. In the case of interacting nucleons, the dotted line would be a virtual pion. In the case of quarks interacting by means of the strong force, the dotted line would be a virtual gluon, and so on.
Virtual particles mediate force transfer by transfering momentum from one particle to another (rather then kinetic energy) This, by the way, as I understand it, is a merger, rather then a collision (as billard balls implies).
There is no 'bouncing off' of anything. In the case of to electrons 'bouncing' off 'each other' virtual photons transfer the momentum between the particles. (Note that in the wikipedia article, it says that virtual particles can carry negative momentum).
You're welcome to write in your own words, in order to answer the above.
And this from the wiki page: http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cf...0000&topicID=13
Yes it does.
QUOTE (wikipedia+)
In the image above and to the right, the solid lines correspond to real particles (of momentum p1 and so on), while the dotted line corresponds to a virtual particle carrying momentum k. For example, if the solid lines were to correspond to electrons interacting by means of the electromagnetic interaction, the dotted line would correspond to the exchange of a virtual photon. In the case of interacting nucleons, the dotted line would be a virtual pion. In the case of quarks interacting by means of the strong force, the dotted line would be a virtual gluon, and so on.
Virtual particles mediate force transfer by transfering momentum from one particle to another (rather then kinetic energy) This, by the way, as I understand it, is a merger, rather then a collision (as billard balls implies).
There is no 'bouncing off' of anything. In the case of to electrons 'bouncing' off 'each other' virtual photons transfer the momentum between the particles. (Note that in the wikipedia article, it says that virtual particles can carry negative momentum).
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 15 2007, 01:18 AM)
And this from the wiki page: http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cf...0000&topicID=13
Yes it does.
In the image above and to the right, the solid lines correspond to real particles (of momentum p1 and so on), while the dotted line corresponds to a virtual particle carrying momentum k. For example, if the solid lines were to correspond to electrons interacting by means of the electromagnetic interaction, the dotted line would correspond to the exchange of a virtual photon. In the case of interacting nucleons, the dotted line would be a virtual pion. In the case of quarks interacting by means of the strong force, the dotted line would be a virtual gluon, and so on.
Virtual particles mediate force transfer by transfering momentum from one particle to another (rather then kinetic energy) This, by the way, as I understand it, is a merger, rather then a collision (as billard balls implies).
There is no 'bouncing off' of anything. In the case of to electrons 'bouncing' off 'each other' virtual photons transfer the momentum between the particles. (Note that in the wikipedia article, it says that virtual particles can carry negative momentum).
Ahhh, you spoiled everything.
At this rate Bryn will never learn anything. Just watch his comeback
Virtual particles mediate force transfer by transfering momentum from one particle to another (rather then kinetic energy) This, by the way, as I understand it, is a merger, rather then a collision (as billard balls implies).
There is no 'bouncing off' of anything. In the case of to electrons 'bouncing' off 'each other' virtual photons transfer the momentum between the particles. (Note that in the wikipedia article, it says that virtual particles can carry negative momentum).
Yeah, I have no problem with that. Absorption was part of what I argued may happen to virtual particles which collided with higher forms of matter. Just because I said the system was like "Billiard Balls colliding into eachother", did not mean that I ruled out absorption of particles.
You must've thought that I was advocating that the Bosons hit matter and just reflected back off. Nope, never said that. I only ever advocated collisions of Bosons with other matter.
So really, that Wiki article is backing my explanation up
Hence, now that it has been verified that virtual particles accelerate Ions through being absorbed and thus increasing the Ion's momentum, then shall we carry on where we left off with the Ives experiment?
Hence, now that it has been verified that virtual particles accelerate Ions through being absorbed and thus increasing the Ion's momentum
I thought that it will come to that.
Yes it does.
QUOTE (wikipedia+)
In the image above and to the right, the solid lines correspond to real particles (of momentum p1 and so on), while the dotted line corresponds to a virtual particle carrying momentum k. For example, if the solid lines were to correspond to electrons interacting by means of the electromagnetic interaction, the dotted line would correspond to the exchange of a virtual photon. In the case of interacting nucleons, the dotted line would be a virtual pion. In the case of quarks interacting by means of the strong force, the dotted line would be a virtual gluon, and so on.
Virtual particles mediate force transfer by transfering momentum from one particle to another (rather then kinetic energy) This, by the way, as I understand it, is a merger, rather then a collision (as billard balls implies).
There is no 'bouncing off' of anything. In the case of to electrons 'bouncing' off 'each other' virtual photons transfer the momentum between the particles. (Note that in the wikipedia article, it says that virtual particles can carry negative momentum).
Ahhh, you spoiled everything.
At this rate Bryn will never learn anything. Just watch his comeback
QUOTE (Trippy+)
Virtual particles mediate force transfer by transfering momentum from one particle to another (rather then kinetic energy) This, by the way, as I understand it, is a merger, rather then a collision (as billard balls implies).
There is no 'bouncing off' of anything. In the case of to electrons 'bouncing' off 'each other' virtual photons transfer the momentum between the particles. (Note that in the wikipedia article, it says that virtual particles can carry negative momentum).
Yeah, I have no problem with that. Absorption was part of what I argued may happen to virtual particles which collided with higher forms of matter. Just because I said the system was like "Billiard Balls colliding into eachother", did not mean that I ruled out absorption of particles.
You must've thought that I was advocating that the Bosons hit matter and just reflected back off. Nope, never said that. I only ever advocated collisions of Bosons with other matter.
So really, that Wiki article is backing my explanation up
Hence, now that it has been verified that virtual particles accelerate Ions through being absorbed and thus increasing the Ion's momentum, then shall we carry on where we left off with the Ives experiment?
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 01:34 AM)
Hence, now that it has been verified that virtual particles accelerate Ions through being absorbed and thus increasing the Ion's momentum
I thought that it will come to that.
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 01:41 AM)
I thought that it will come to that.
Got a problem with it?
Got a problem with it?
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 01:43 AM)
Got a problem with it?
Yes, you are lying. Badly. See what you REALLY said:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=248037
and
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=248365
Yes, you are lying. Badly. See what you REALLY said:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=248037
and
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=248365
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 01:46 AM)
Yes, you are lying. Badly. See what you REALLY said:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=248365
What? I'm building upon the theory, with the answers provided by people such as Trippy and Learm. I don't see a problem here.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=248365
What? I'm building upon the theory, with the answers provided by people such as Trippy and Learm. I don't see a problem here.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 01:50 AM)
What? I'm building upon the theory, with the answers provided by people such as Trippy and Learm. I don't see a problem here.
You continue to lie and to make up stories as you go.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...90entry248037
and
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...90entry248365
Either way, you took what Trippy told you and you turned it 180 degrees. Today you are much better than even the Sunday comics (and those tend to be the best).
Anyway, you can carry on with your "learning" of the Ives experiment. So, what is the speed of the ions?
You continue to lie and to make up stories as you go.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...90entry248037
and
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...90entry248365
Either way, you took what Trippy told you and you turned it 180 degrees. Today you are much better than even the Sunday comics (and those tend to be the best).
Anyway, you can carry on with your "learning" of the Ives experiment. So, what is the speed of the ions?
QUOTE (Dallas+Aug 15 2007, 01:51 AM)
Either way, you took what Trippy told you and you turned it 180 degrees.
Trippy said virtual particles are absorbed, and that when they are absorbed, they impart momentum, mass and velocity, to the object they are absorbed by. This is wholly acceptable as far as I am concerned, because I have always argued that all particles have mass (Even photons). Hence, in this case, the virtual particles would have mass too, and this mass would 'add' (ever so slightly) to the object they were impacting, as they then become absorbed. Along with the increase in mass, the velocity would also increase (ever so slightly) for each absorption. That is momentum increase, as far as I see it.
Now shall I elucidate on how this affects the Ives experiment?
Trippy said virtual particles are absorbed, and that when they are absorbed, they impart momentum, mass and velocity, to the object they are absorbed by. This is wholly acceptable as far as I am concerned, because I have always argued that all particles have mass (Even photons). Hence, in this case, the virtual particles would have mass too, and this mass would 'add' (ever so slightly) to the object they were impacting, as they then become absorbed. Along with the increase in mass, the velocity would also increase (ever so slightly) for each absorption. That is momentum increase, as far as I see it.
Now shall I elucidate on how this affects the Ives experiment?
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 02:05 AM)
Trippy said virtual particles are absorbed, and that when they are absorbed, they impart momentum, mass and velocity, to the object they are absorbed by. This is wholly acceptable as far as I am concerned, because I have always argued that all particles have mass (Even photons).
You managed to pervert everything in the wiki explanations, congratulations! A never ending stream of crankisms. Photons are massless but it is useless talking to you about this issue.
Hence, in this case, the virtual particles would have mass too,
Nope, you have not read one line, you are making up crank stories again but carry on.
Nope, you have not read one line, you are making up crank stories again but carry on.
and this mass would 'add' (ever so slightly) to the object they were impacting, as they then become absorbed. Along with the increase in mass, the velocity would also increase (ever so slightly) for each absorption. That is momentum increase, as far as I see it.
So what is the resulting speed, dr. Stilwell?
Now shall I elucidate on how this affects the Ives experiment?
Sure, carry on the rest of your delusions, you are on a roll
You managed to pervert everything in the wiki explanations, congratulations! A never ending stream of crankisms. Photons are massless but it is useless talking to you about this issue.
QUOTE
Hence, in this case, the virtual particles would have mass too,
Nope, you have not read one line, you are making up crank stories again but carry on.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
Hence, in this case, the virtual particles would have mass too, |
Nope, you have not read one line, you are making up crank stories again but carry on.
and this mass would 'add' (ever so slightly) to the object they were impacting, as they then become absorbed. Along with the increase in mass, the velocity would also increase (ever so slightly) for each absorption. That is momentum increase, as far as I see it.
So what is the resulting speed, dr. Stilwell?
QUOTE
Now shall I elucidate on how this affects the Ives experiment?
Sure, carry on the rest of your delusions, you are on a roll
RPenner: Something else occured to me this afternoon while I was pottering around in my car - if (at least at the quantum scale anyway) the electromagnetic force is mediated by virtual photons, then why should changing c be expected to have no effect on how electric fields behave?
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 02:05 AM)
Trippy said virtual particles are absorbed, and that when they are absorbed, they impart momentum, mass and velocity, to the object they are absorbed by. This is wholly acceptable as far as I am concerned, because I have always argued that all particles have mass (Even photons). Hence, in this case, the virtual particles would have mass too, and this mass would 'add' (ever so slightly) to the object they were impacting, as they then become absorbed. Along with the increase in mass, the velocity would also increase (ever so slightly) for each absorption. That is momentum increase, as far as I see it.
Now shall I elucidate on how this affects the Ives experiment?
Momentum = mass x velocity
Hmmm.
Billiard balls again? Wiki momentum and you'll see that you're headed down another dead end.
Now shall I elucidate on how this affects the Ives experiment?
Momentum = mass x velocity
Hmmm.
Billiard balls again? Wiki momentum and you'll see that you're headed down another dead end.
You know, it would be far more productive if people actually explained why people are wrong, rather than just state that they are wrong.
It's like saying: "You're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why"
Dallas has self-admittedly said that he is not interested in discussing topics in the form of explaining and elaborating, but would instead rather produce an endless diatribe of patronizing statements and accusations of wrongness, but without explanation or elaboration.
Having slept on this. I find it just not worth my time taking 3-5 pages of a thread, just to get a single answer from him. I mean, the only reason this discussion has actually advanced, is because of those few who actually provided answers.
Really, this thread is a case study of how useless Dallas is, when it comes to discussing Physics.
He'd far rather tell you to go back to some arbitrary grade in high-school, rather than attempt to explain something in a productive manner. It's just simply a waste of time discussing anything with him.
I'll continue talking to other people, but I'm no longer going to reply to him, or even read his posts. It's just a big fat waste of my time doing either.
I truly hope he learns from this, and appreciates the error of his ways.
It's like saying: "You're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why"
Dallas has self-admittedly said that he is not interested in discussing topics in the form of explaining and elaborating, but would instead rather produce an endless diatribe of patronizing statements and accusations of wrongness, but without explanation or elaboration.
Having slept on this. I find it just not worth my time taking 3-5 pages of a thread, just to get a single answer from him. I mean, the only reason this discussion has actually advanced, is because of those few who actually provided answers.
Really, this thread is a case study of how useless Dallas is, when it comes to discussing Physics.
He'd far rather tell you to go back to some arbitrary grade in high-school, rather than attempt to explain something in a productive manner. It's just simply a waste of time discussing anything with him.
I'll continue talking to other people, but I'm no longer going to reply to him, or even read his posts. It's just a big fat waste of my time doing either.
I truly hope he learns from this, and appreciates the error of his ways.
Bryn: you're wastingyour time with nutters like Dallas. Virtual particles do not exist. Because they are virtual. They are not real. They are mathematical accounting units. They're as real as a storm of pennies going over the counter when you pay in a cheque. And they are a bad concept. The right concept is based on Relativity, and Einstein's pure marble geometric dream that explains how matter is made of space. Here's an excerpt:
You might want to re-read the first post of this thread.
Having slept on this. I find it just not worth my time taking 3-5 pages of a thread, just to get a single answer from him. I mean, the only reason this discussion has actually advanced, is because of those few who actually provided answers.
Well, I tried to teach you to tell the truth, to learn and to think by yourself. I obviously failed
QUOTE (Farsight+)
To show you how it works, I need you to play with plates. Take two dinner plates, one in each hand. Find a swimming pool or a pond, preferably on a sunny windless day. Dip one of the plates halfway into the water. Now stroke it gently forward in a paddling motion whilst lifting it clear. Notice that you create a “U-tube” double whirlpool that moves slowly forward through the water.

This is a Falaco Soliton. If your pool is big enough, the double whirlpool will settle down into two dimples on the surface of the water, visible as two black-spot shadows on the bottom. They are very stable, and can persist for maybe an hour. But you don’t need to wait for that. Create one double whirlpool with one dinner plate, then step to one side and create another one with the other dinner plate. You’ll need a little practice, but after a while you’ll have the knack of it, and you’ll be able to create two double whirlpools with ease. Aim them at each other. Watch carefully. Notice what happens. If the left-hand-side of one double whirlpool closes with the right-hand-side of the other, the two opposite whirlpools move together. If the left-hand-side of one double whirlpool closes with the left-hand-side of the other, the two similar whirlpools move apart. What you are seeing is attraction and repulsion.
Now aim two double whirlpools straight at one another, face on. This is best in a shallow pond with a muddy bottom. The two double whirlpools meet and merge and are gone with a surprisingly energetic puff of muddy water. You’ve just seen annihilation.
It’s another fluid analogy of course. It isn’t a perfect analogy because the vacuum of space is not a fluid like water. Space doesn’t flow. It’s more like an elastic solid, but one with no solidity at all...
You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that this forum is a madhouse of sneering stupid kids who know f*ck all about physics but think they know it all.

This is a Falaco Soliton. If your pool is big enough, the double whirlpool will settle down into two dimples on the surface of the water, visible as two black-spot shadows on the bottom. They are very stable, and can persist for maybe an hour. But you don’t need to wait for that. Create one double whirlpool with one dinner plate, then step to one side and create another one with the other dinner plate. You’ll need a little practice, but after a while you’ll have the knack of it, and you’ll be able to create two double whirlpools with ease. Aim them at each other. Watch carefully. Notice what happens. If the left-hand-side of one double whirlpool closes with the right-hand-side of the other, the two opposite whirlpools move together. If the left-hand-side of one double whirlpool closes with the left-hand-side of the other, the two similar whirlpools move apart. What you are seeing is attraction and repulsion.
Now aim two double whirlpools straight at one another, face on. This is best in a shallow pond with a muddy bottom. The two double whirlpools meet and merge and are gone with a surprisingly energetic puff of muddy water. You’ve just seen annihilation.
It’s another fluid analogy of course. It isn’t a perfect analogy because the vacuum of space is not a fluid like water. Space doesn’t flow. It’s more like an elastic solid, but one with no solidity at all...
You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that this forum is a madhouse of sneering stupid kids who know f*ck all about physics but think they know it all.
Farsight
what the relation between the falaco-solitons and creations of virtual pairs in the
torsion,that connect the two vortices that has opposite rotates.
then wormholes are strings that connect the two vortices,that are linked by wavefunctions that are bridges that modify the topology between the vortices
and "strings"
what the relation between the falaco-solitons and creations of virtual pairs in the
torsion,that connect the two vortices that has opposite rotates.
then wormholes are strings that connect the two vortices,that are linked by wavefunctions that are bridges that modify the topology between the vortices
and "strings"
QUOTE
You know, I'm coming to the conclusion that this forum is a madhouse of sneering stupid kids who know f*ck all about physics but think they know it all.
You might want to re-read the first post of this thread.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 15 2007, 12:55 PM)
The right concept is based on Relativity, and Einstein's pure marble geometric dream that explains how matter is made of space.
I'm not so sure about Physics which involves an essence of spatial tangibility. There have been no demonstrable examples of space deformation, eg. Rips in space, Warps in space, Compression in space, or even wormholes.
People say "Oh, black holes are holes/rips in space", yet such examples are useless because there aren't any nearby for me to visualize. Hell, you can't even visualize a black hole to begin with!
I really do want to see spatial deformation, demonstrably up-front, that I can see with my own two eyes.
I'm not so sure about Physics which involves an essence of spatial tangibility. There have been no demonstrable examples of space deformation, eg. Rips in space, Warps in space, Compression in space, or even wormholes.
People say "Oh, black holes are holes/rips in space", yet such examples are useless because there aren't any nearby for me to visualize. Hell, you can't even visualize a black hole to begin with!
I really do want to see spatial deformation, demonstrably up-front, that I can see with my own two eyes.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:17 PM)
Having slept on this. I find it just not worth my time taking 3-5 pages of a thread, just to get a single answer from him. I mean, the only reason this discussion has actually advanced, is because of those few who actually provided answers.
Well, I tried to teach you to tell the truth, to learn and to think by yourself. I obviously failed
occidental: I just did. I've repeated my response below. I seek to do my bit to make physics more popular, because A-level entries are down 56% in twenty years. But nobody's actually interested, nobody's listening. Mathematicians like Euler insist that you must learn mathematics dressed as physics, and not investigate qualitative concepts in the search for answers that the mathematics doesn't give. You don't get engagement from Euler saying "Now that looks like an interesting concept, why don't we work together and see if we can introduce some mathematical rigour?". What you get is supercilious sneering arrogant scorn, a feedback score of -17, and perennial abuse from nutter trolls like Dallas.
QUOTE (Farsight+Jul 10 2007, 04:48 PM)
One fine day I was going about my business when I heard that the Maths Tower at Manchester University was to be demolished. I was shocked. To me it was an inspirational icon of learning, the thing that put the campus on the skyline, on the map, and on the picture postcards. I used to sit on the seventeenth floor in a class, learning about gates and induction from the likes of Tom Kilburn, godfather of Computer Science. I listened intently with the cityscape before me and Jodrell Bank behind. I learned a lot in that Maths Tower. It shaped my life, it was my beacon. And now it’s gone.
Copyright © 2005, N. J. Higham
Yes, I know buildings don’t last forever. But the building that replaced it is the Tin Drum, a thousand-seat lecture theatre for commercial seminars, part of a Social “Sciences” development, which in turn is part of a new vision for a 21st century campus. In this 21st century vision, the new mathematics building isn’t the Maths Building. It’s called AMPSS. It’s shared with other schools. And it’s on the edge of campus. Yes I’m sure it’s more modern, and more practical. But it’s out on a limb. It just isn’t so important any more. And moreover, UMIST is no more. The University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology no longer exists. It has been fused with the rest of The University of Manchester. The prospectus now shouts old stone, a retrograde vision that talks of heritage and 1824 instead of the white heat of modern technology. And the list of Humanities courses is so very much longer than the Engineering and Physical Sciences. Things have changed, and I don’t much like it.
Who am I to complain? Computers were the next big thing when I was starting out. Hence I’m in IT, and it’s served me well. I live in a place called Sandbanks. No, not quite Sandbanks, because Sandbanks is next door. I live in a place called Lilliput. There really is such a place. It’s a comfortable world of beach and pool, ten minutes to work, quality of life. There’s time for living and time for wine, and time to do the things you want to do. My interest is physics. It’s more than a hobby. It’s more of a passion, one that has grown deeper as I’ve grown older. I’m deeply curious about the world, I want to know how the universe works. Doesn’t everybody? No. The sound of a stylus slewing across an album. My teenagers don’t. The wife and I have two teenage children, and when the time arose for choices and courses, I was disappointed. Both the boy and the girl have dropped their science subjects. I asked them about it, talked to them. They told me physics at school was dull. They weren’t taking it forward. What can you do? You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. They are simply not interested in science. It’s my fault. I wasn’t paying enough attention, either to them or their schooling. I didn’t notice that the curriculum had changed. I didn’t notice how the dead hand of Health & Safety has turned it from Van Der Graaf generators into bookwork and pendulums. I’m not sure of the underlying reasons, but whatever it is, it’s real, it’s happening, and I didn’t realise until it was too late. Suddenly I woke up. I learned of physics departments closing down, and other science departments too, and it set my alarm bells ringing. I read that the number of A-level students taking physics has fallen 56% in 20 years, and I felt a shiver. This is serious. What are you going to do about it?

I left it too late for my own children. But perhaps, I said to myself, perhaps I could do something to enthuse other people’s children. Or laymen. Perhaps I could use my skills to make physics a little more interesting, a little more accessible, a little more fun. Maybe I even could appeal to the sort of person who gets the electrician in to replace a halogen spotlight. I say that because there’s a standing joke in our house, that I’m the only one who can change a lightbulb. But somehow it isn’t funny. Somehow it’s tragic. People used to understand their technology, now fewer folk do. Some can talk the talk and press the buttons, but few of them have more than the vaguest concept of how things work. They can’t fix a car, and some don’t even know how to open the bonnet. We replace entire machines because nobody understands. There’s a drift, a tide, and we’re swimming against it. The ordinary person of the 21st century understands less than the ordinary person of thirty years ago. And slowly, insiduously, it’s getting worse. Something must be done, I said to myself. And if you want something done, you’ve got to do it yourself.
So there I was, determined to make a difference. I do have a skill. It’s subtle, understated, you don’t always see it. Like I was saying, I’ve spent my years in IT, where we work hard to keep things simple. It’s all to do with language, the right language. A good system is clear and understandable, organised in a top-down structured fashion so you can look at a picture and get a feel for it quickly. Then you can dig down a level and get a handle on a few more things, and keep on digging until you get to the bottom of it. Every step of the way you’re seeing order, discipline, clean functionality, understanding. It’s all so easy when you make it look easy. It’s all so obvious when it’s all done right. That’s what Systems Analysis is all about. You call a spade a spade and make sure it does what it says on the can. You learn to think clearly and logically, and when you do it right, nobody knows that you did it right. But you know you did, because you’ve seen what happens when people get it wrong. Because if it’s not done right, if it’s complicated, if you can’t understand it, it means somebody screwed up. You wonder how people can get it so wrong.

Where would I start? At the beginning of course, with the basic concepts. I’d explain them simply and logically in friendly fashion that made physics fun. After all, as Einstein said: If you can’t explain it to your grandmother, you don’t understand it yourself. No problem. I mean, we’re talking Popular Science, not Rocket Science. Easy, no problem.

No problem? Big problem. The problem was that when I tried to explain those basic concepts, I found I couldn’t. I couldn’t explain it to my grandmother. I consulted my books and searched the internet, I delved deep, I read substantial papers, but I just couldn’t find the answers. Then I looked at the mathematics, and thought about it. I applied my Systems Analysis experience. I broke down the problem and shuffled the pieces and checked the functionality of every component. I worked it out. I found what my problem was. Mathematics is a vital tool for physics. We can’t do physics without it. But the basic concepts I was trying to explain is where the mathematics starts. And whilst I take a top-down approach, the mathematics is bottom-up. The basic concepts were base mathematical terms, like E, and m and t and c and g. I was trying to dig under the axioms, the postulates, the things we take for granted. I realised then that whilst mathematics is a vital tool for physics, when it comes to basic concepts, it just doesn’t have a handle. It doesn’t offer any grasp. Don’t get me wrong. With mathematics we calculate and predict, and then conduct experiments to confirm these predictions. It’s vital. But mathematics shouldn’t be the only tool in the box. It can’t do it all. It can’t explain the basic concepts. That’s like trying to understand the Jury System using legal shorthand, or teaching English in a foreign language. You just can’t do it.

I understood then why Relativity and Quantum Physics have not been reconciled. Relativity is macroscopic and top down. Quantum Physics is microscopic and bottom up. It isn’t just a gap between them, they’re headed in different directions, and they’ve missed each other. And to get to the bottom of why, I had to get to the bottom of those basic concepts. That’s when the fun began.
I'm no crank.
Copyright © 2005, N. J. HighamYes, I know buildings don’t last forever. But the building that replaced it is the Tin Drum, a thousand-seat lecture theatre for commercial seminars, part of a Social “Sciences” development, which in turn is part of a new vision for a 21st century campus. In this 21st century vision, the new mathematics building isn’t the Maths Building. It’s called AMPSS. It’s shared with other schools. And it’s on the edge of campus. Yes I’m sure it’s more modern, and more practical. But it’s out on a limb. It just isn’t so important any more. And moreover, UMIST is no more. The University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology no longer exists. It has been fused with the rest of The University of Manchester. The prospectus now shouts old stone, a retrograde vision that talks of heritage and 1824 instead of the white heat of modern technology. And the list of Humanities courses is so very much longer than the Engineering and Physical Sciences. Things have changed, and I don’t much like it.
Who am I to complain? Computers were the next big thing when I was starting out. Hence I’m in IT, and it’s served me well. I live in a place called Sandbanks. No, not quite Sandbanks, because Sandbanks is next door. I live in a place called Lilliput. There really is such a place. It’s a comfortable world of beach and pool, ten minutes to work, quality of life. There’s time for living and time for wine, and time to do the things you want to do. My interest is physics. It’s more than a hobby. It’s more of a passion, one that has grown deeper as I’ve grown older. I’m deeply curious about the world, I want to know how the universe works. Doesn’t everybody? No. The sound of a stylus slewing across an album. My teenagers don’t. The wife and I have two teenage children, and when the time arose for choices and courses, I was disappointed. Both the boy and the girl have dropped their science subjects. I asked them about it, talked to them. They told me physics at school was dull. They weren’t taking it forward. What can you do? You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. They are simply not interested in science. It’s my fault. I wasn’t paying enough attention, either to them or their schooling. I didn’t notice that the curriculum had changed. I didn’t notice how the dead hand of Health & Safety has turned it from Van Der Graaf generators into bookwork and pendulums. I’m not sure of the underlying reasons, but whatever it is, it’s real, it’s happening, and I didn’t realise until it was too late. Suddenly I woke up. I learned of physics departments closing down, and other science departments too, and it set my alarm bells ringing. I read that the number of A-level students taking physics has fallen 56% in 20 years, and I felt a shiver. This is serious. What are you going to do about it?

I left it too late for my own children. But perhaps, I said to myself, perhaps I could do something to enthuse other people’s children. Or laymen. Perhaps I could use my skills to make physics a little more interesting, a little more accessible, a little more fun. Maybe I even could appeal to the sort of person who gets the electrician in to replace a halogen spotlight. I say that because there’s a standing joke in our house, that I’m the only one who can change a lightbulb. But somehow it isn’t funny. Somehow it’s tragic. People used to understand their technology, now fewer folk do. Some can talk the talk and press the buttons, but few of them have more than the vaguest concept of how things work. They can’t fix a car, and some don’t even know how to open the bonnet. We replace entire machines because nobody understands. There’s a drift, a tide, and we’re swimming against it. The ordinary person of the 21st century understands less than the ordinary person of thirty years ago. And slowly, insiduously, it’s getting worse. Something must be done, I said to myself. And if you want something done, you’ve got to do it yourself.
So there I was, determined to make a difference. I do have a skill. It’s subtle, understated, you don’t always see it. Like I was saying, I’ve spent my years in IT, where we work hard to keep things simple. It’s all to do with language, the right language. A good system is clear and understandable, organised in a top-down structured fashion so you can look at a picture and get a feel for it quickly. Then you can dig down a level and get a handle on a few more things, and keep on digging until you get to the bottom of it. Every step of the way you’re seeing order, discipline, clean functionality, understanding. It’s all so easy when you make it look easy. It’s all so obvious when it’s all done right. That’s what Systems Analysis is all about. You call a spade a spade and make sure it does what it says on the can. You learn to think clearly and logically, and when you do it right, nobody knows that you did it right. But you know you did, because you’ve seen what happens when people get it wrong. Because if it’s not done right, if it’s complicated, if you can’t understand it, it means somebody screwed up. You wonder how people can get it so wrong.

Where would I start? At the beginning of course, with the basic concepts. I’d explain them simply and logically in friendly fashion that made physics fun. After all, as Einstein said: If you can’t explain it to your grandmother, you don’t understand it yourself. No problem. I mean, we’re talking Popular Science, not Rocket Science. Easy, no problem.

No problem? Big problem. The problem was that when I tried to explain those basic concepts, I found I couldn’t. I couldn’t explain it to my grandmother. I consulted my books and searched the internet, I delved deep, I read substantial papers, but I just couldn’t find the answers. Then I looked at the mathematics, and thought about it. I applied my Systems Analysis experience. I broke down the problem and shuffled the pieces and checked the functionality of every component. I worked it out. I found what my problem was. Mathematics is a vital tool for physics. We can’t do physics without it. But the basic concepts I was trying to explain is where the mathematics starts. And whilst I take a top-down approach, the mathematics is bottom-up. The basic concepts were base mathematical terms, like E, and m and t and c and g. I was trying to dig under the axioms, the postulates, the things we take for granted. I realised then that whilst mathematics is a vital tool for physics, when it comes to basic concepts, it just doesn’t have a handle. It doesn’t offer any grasp. Don’t get me wrong. With mathematics we calculate and predict, and then conduct experiments to confirm these predictions. It’s vital. But mathematics shouldn’t be the only tool in the box. It can’t do it all. It can’t explain the basic concepts. That’s like trying to understand the Jury System using legal shorthand, or teaching English in a foreign language. You just can’t do it.

I understood then why Relativity and Quantum Physics have not been reconciled. Relativity is macroscopic and top down. Quantum Physics is microscopic and bottom up. It isn’t just a gap between them, they’re headed in different directions, and they’ve missed each other. And to get to the bottom of why, I had to get to the bottom of those basic concepts. That’s when the fun began.
I'm no crank.
QUOTE (mott.carl+Aug 15 2007, 01:07 PM)
Farsight
what the relation between the falaco-solitons and creations of virtual pairs in the torsion,that connect the two vortices that has opposite rotates. Then wormholes are strings that connect the two vortices,that are linked by wavefunctions that are bridges that modify the topology between the vortices
and "strings"
It is just a fluid analogy, mott. It would be a better analogy if you used singleton whirlpools. But you can't make them by just dipping a plate. Forget the wormholes and the strings. There is no connection between the electron and positron in pair production.
Forget it then Bryn. I've tried to help on a number of topics, but you just don't listen even to sincere posters like myself and rpenner.
Ah, the irony is inescapable. You put yourself on the same plane as rpenner. Then you wonder why the negative feedbacks keep piling up
General Relativity wasn't accepted by mainstream physicists until the late twenties. That's what, thriteen years? And I know why. It's because people don't listen. And some, like our local neighbourhood troll Dallas, don't actually think. It's just a litany of stupid-kid insults. You've maybe got your curtains drawn and so you stay in the dark.
You don't have to draw any curtains, when it comes to science you are already in the dark. Perpetual.
But for him, it is, it really is like I said: The shutters are down and there's nobody home.
I do listen. I await your posts with the same eagerness I await the Sunday comics, yours are often better.
what the relation between the falaco-solitons and creations of virtual pairs in the torsion,that connect the two vortices that has opposite rotates. Then wormholes are strings that connect the two vortices,that are linked by wavefunctions that are bridges that modify the topology between the vortices
and "strings"
It is just a fluid analogy, mott. It would be a better analogy if you used singleton whirlpools. But you can't make them by just dipping a plate. Forget the wormholes and the strings. There is no connection between the electron and positron in pair production.
QUOTE (Bryn+)
I'm not so sure about Physics which involves an essence of spatial tangibility. There have been no demonstrable examples of space deformation, eg. Rips in space, Warps in space, Compression in space, or even wormholes.
People say "Oh, black holes are holes/rips in space", yet such examples are useless because there aren't any nearby for me to visualize. Hell, you can't even visualize a black hole to begin with!
I really do want to see spatial deformation, demonstrably up-front, that I can see with my own two eyes.
Forget it then Bryn. I've tried to help on a number of topics, but you just don't listen even to sincere posters like myself and rpenner.
People say "Oh, black holes are holes/rips in space", yet such examples are useless because there aren't any nearby for me to visualize. Hell, you can't even visualize a black hole to begin with!
I really do want to see spatial deformation, demonstrably up-front, that I can see with my own two eyes.
Forget it then Bryn. I've tried to help on a number of topics, but you just don't listen even to sincere posters like myself and rpenner.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 15 2007, 01:51 PM)
Forget it then Bryn. I've tried to help on a number of topics, but you just don't listen even to sincere posters like myself and rpenner.
Ah, the irony is inescapable. You put yourself on the same plane as rpenner. Then you wonder why the negative feedbacks keep piling up
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 15 2007, 01:51 PM)
Forget it then Bryn. I've tried to help on a number of topics, but you just don't listen even to sincere posters like myself and rpenner.
I disagree with your theory - So what? That's no basis to get confrontational.
People disagree with theories all the time. Hell, I even provided reasoning for why I disagree.
I disagree with your theory - So what? That's no basis to get confrontational.
People disagree with theories all the time. Hell, I even provided reasoning for why I disagree.
I'm not getting confrontational Bryn. It's just that you won't actually try out the Falaco Soliton charged-particle analogy to get an intiutive grasp of what might be going on. You brush it off just as you brushed off what I was telling you about GPS and time dilation. You know, in one of the papers rpenner linked to, there's this:
"Although special relativity itself never benefited from the kind of “crucial” experiments, such as the perihelion advance of Mercury and the deflection of light, that contributed so much to the initial acceptance of GR and to the fame of Einstein, the steady accumulation of experimental support, together with the successful merger of special relativity with quantum mechanics, led to its being accepted by mainstream physicists by the late 1920s, ultimately to become part of the standard toolkit of every working physicist. This accumulation included..."
General Relativity wasn't accepted by mainstream physicists until the late twenties. That's what, thriteen years? And I know why. It's because people don't listen. And some, like our local neighbourhood troll Dallas, don't actually think. It's just a litany of stupid-kid insults. You've maybe got your curtains drawn and so you stay in the dark. But for him, it is, it really is like I said: The shutters are down and there's nobody home.
"Although special relativity itself never benefited from the kind of “crucial” experiments, such as the perihelion advance of Mercury and the deflection of light, that contributed so much to the initial acceptance of GR and to the fame of Einstein, the steady accumulation of experimental support, together with the successful merger of special relativity with quantum mechanics, led to its being accepted by mainstream physicists by the late 1920s, ultimately to become part of the standard toolkit of every working physicist. This accumulation included..."
General Relativity wasn't accepted by mainstream physicists until the late twenties. That's what, thriteen years? And I know why. It's because people don't listen. And some, like our local neighbourhood troll Dallas, don't actually think. It's just a litany of stupid-kid insults. You've maybe got your curtains drawn and so you stay in the dark. But for him, it is, it really is like I said: The shutters are down and there's nobody home.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 15 2007, 02:20 PM)
General Relativity wasn't accepted by mainstream physicists until the late twenties. That's what, thriteen years? And I know why. It's because people don't listen. And some, like our local neighbourhood troll Dallas, don't actually think. It's just a litany of stupid-kid insults. You've maybe got your curtains drawn and so you stay in the dark.
You don't have to draw any curtains, when it comes to science you are already in the dark. Perpetual.
QUOTE
But for him, it is, it really is like I said: The shutters are down and there's nobody home.
I do listen. I await your posts with the same eagerness I await the Sunday comics, yours are often better.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 15 2007, 02:20 PM)
I'm not getting confrontational Bryn. It's just that you won't actually try out the Falaco Soliton charged-particle analogy to get an intiutive grasp of what might be going on. You brush it off just as you brushed off what I was telling you about GPS and time dilation.
Farsight, I do not rule out your theory. You will never catch me saying "Farsight's theory is wrong", because that would be foolish of me.
Just provide me with any of the kinds of spatial tangibility which I asked for.
That's all I ask.
Farsight, I do not rule out your theory. You will never catch me saying "Farsight's theory is wrong", because that would be foolish of me.
Just provide me with any of the kinds of spatial tangibility which I asked for.
That's all I ask.
It doesn't work like that. Space is what you'd call intangible. But it can be configured to result in things that you call tangible. You're made of this stuff too, but it isn't stuff. Here's an excerpt from an essay nobody's seen yet:
A photon is another action. Unlike a shout, which is a longitudinal wave moving in air, a photon is a transverse wave in space. It’s a ripple, a shimmy, just another action, and now there’s no mystery to it. Because space is ...
If photons are waves of space, then what are the waves comprised of?
ie. What are the waves comprised of, in the sea? - Water.
If photons are waves of space, then what are the waves comprised of?
ie. What are the waves comprised of, in the sea? - Water.
I do know the answer to this Bryn, but right now I'm keeping it under my hat. Sorry. The important thing is that tangible and intangible aren't quite what you think. What you think of as a solid object isn't really solid. You know the saying "Atoms are made of 99% empty space". Well, they got that wrong.
Please don't feed the troll, Bryn.
ok..
ok..
Re my earlier post, perhaps I didn't make it clear. It isn't 99%. It's 100%.
If it's 100% empty space, then that means it's a complete vacuum. That makes no sense to me.
btw, your theory sounds alot like AWT, but without musings about 'foam' all the time.
Also, you keep avoiding the question: if Lorentz invariance is not the mechanism responsible for time dilation, what would you change among the 4 postulates that allow you to derive Lorentz invariance?
It'd help if you gave 'the four postulates', whatever they are? I'll see what I can do.
this post and this one. A few days ago rpenner posted the same thing, but showing the math.
The process of decay, given that an atom can be isolated, yet still decay; seems to be due to the internal processes at work, which eventually result in the decay.
I am not sure what part you are criticising, in order to come up with the idea that I suggested that muons watch photons moving in order to decide how long to live. You'll have to point out specifically what you are on about.
The mechanism of decay does not involve photons.
If there were an internal state of some kind, it would not need to involve photons either since the mechanism doesn't. But there is no internal state.
Also, your proposed mechanism would seem to be direction dependent. To make matters worse, what about an observer, also moving, in a different direction? How can everyone agree on the events? I believe your proposal is not consistent with Lorentz symmetry and would require a preferred frame to avoid contradictions.
May it not be argued that these virtual bosons and whatnot, are simply particles more fundamental than photons? I mean, in order to see them, they would need to 'give off' matter which we could detect; but if they're smaller than the smallest form of matter...then whatever they give off, will be even smaller!
If the above was true, then you would never be able to see these particles, but you would be able to see their 'effect' on higher forms of matter. Such is why you can see magnetism at work, but never see the virtual bosons behind the magnetism itself.
I'm glad you are getting the kind of "underlying" explanation you were looking for.
Photons are a kind of boson. The others act similarly to give rise to other forces.
Photons are as fundamental as it gets. Your "give off" idea is leading to infinite regress. The (real) photon in absorbed by an electron in a molecule in the eye. The minimal interaction is thus:
Photon vanishes (*poof*). Electron gains energy.
The electron moves to a different orbital, changing the overall electric characteristics of the complex molecule, thus changing its shape, thus triggering a cascade of other effects throughout the body.
Whether it attracts or repels is in context, and not known by the emitter. The "things" spit out by a negative charge don't know whether they will encounter another negative charge or a positive charge.
There is also one that moves sideways! Consider the magnetic effects around a wire carrying electric current. Oh, and gravity is even worse, since the direction it pulls would need to vary with distance from the source and velocity of the receiver in order to cancel out the aberration. But let's not consider gravity.
For Quantum Mechanics, there is also an interaction that, in addition to changing the momentum (or not), can change the identity of the particles and swap out various properties such as charge. So, it's getting more complicated, isn't it?
Whether it attracts or repels is in context, and not known by the emitter. The "things" spit out by a negative charge don't know whether they will encounter another negative charge or a positive charge.
There is also one that moves sideways! Consider the magnetic effects around a wire carrying electric current. Oh, and gravity is even worse, since the direction it pulls would need to vary with distance from the source and velocity of the receiver in order to cancel out the aberration. But let's not consider gravity.
For Quantum Mechanics, there is also an interaction that, in addition to changing the momentum (or not), can change the identity of the particles and swap out various properties such as charge. So, it's getting more complicated, isn't it?
I'm not so sure that we should treat them as waves, like the waves of the sea, but instead as merely the 'wave-like motion' of discrete particles themselves.
QUOTE (Farsight+)
We are so very accustomed to thinking about particles as “billiard balls” that it’s difficult to conceive of tangible things being made out of intangible space. To get you used to the idea, consider a shout. Is a shout a thing? Can you measure its width? How about its length? Can you pin down its location? The answer to all these questions is no, because a shout is an action. You understand what it is, and you understand that whilst it is a thing, it’s an intangible thing. You don’t think of a shout as being made up of shout particles. There’s just no mystery to it. A kick is another action. It doesn’t weigh anything, it doesn’t have a colour, or a surface. But there’s no mystery to it either. There’s lots of intangible things that are recognisably things. The crease in my pants is a thing, but it has no substance. It’s basically a one-dimensional line a little under a yard long. A fold is something similar, and then we get more complicated things like a twist. When these things are just sitting there we’re talking geometry and topology, when they’re moving we’re talking about action.
A photon is another action. Unlike a shout, which is a longitudinal wave moving in air, a photon is a transverse wave in space. It’s a ripple, a shimmy, just another action, and now there’s no mystery to it. Because space is ...
A photon is another action. Unlike a shout, which is a longitudinal wave moving in air, a photon is a transverse wave in space. It’s a ripple, a shimmy, just another action, and now there’s no mystery to it. Because space is ...
QUOTE
A photon is another action. Unlike a shout, which is a longitudinal wave moving in air, a photon is a transverse wave in space. It’s a ripple, a shimmy, just another action, and now there’s no mystery to it. Because space is ...
If photons are waves of space, then what are the waves comprised of?
ie. What are the waves comprised of, in the sea? - Water.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 03:35 PM)
If photons are waves of space, then what are the waves comprised of?
ie. What are the waves comprised of, in the sea? - Water.
I do know the answer to this Bryn, but right now I'm keeping it under my hat. Sorry. The important thing is that tangible and intangible aren't quite what you think. What you think of as a solid object isn't really solid. You know the saying "Atoms are made of 99% empty space". Well, they got that wrong.
Two psycho chatting with mystic sentences about their misunderstanding of mainstream physics.
Quite interresting
Quite interresting
Post deleted.
QUOTE (Cédric H.+Aug 15 2007, 04:52 PM)
Two psycho chatting with mystic sentences about their misunderstanding of mainstream physics.
Quite interresting
It is the practice of philosophising about physics, for fun & because the topics are intriguing to mull over.
So cut your elitist nonsense, and take it elsewhere.
Quite interresting
It is the practice of philosophising about physics, for fun & because the topics are intriguing to mull over.
So cut your elitist nonsense, and take it elsewhere.
Please don't feed the troll, Bryn.
Re my earlier post, perhaps I didn't make it clear. It isn't 99%. It's 100%.
Re my earlier post, perhaps I didn't make it clear. It isn't 99%. It's 100%.
QUOTE
Please don't feed the troll, Bryn.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
Please don't feed the troll, Bryn. |
Re my earlier post, perhaps I didn't make it clear. It isn't 99%. It's 100%.
If it's 100% empty space, then that means it's a complete vacuum. That makes no sense to me.
btw, your theory sounds alot like AWT, but without musings about 'foam' all the time.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 09:09 PM)
...your theory sounds alot like AWT, but without musings about 'foam' all the time....
The AWT isn't based on any particular topology, but the foam model simplifies the explanation of many concepts a lot (some others is better to explain by torsion model, though, because the Aether fluctuations are the nested foamy spinning & twisting fluctuations of ultra-dense gas-fluid liquid, similar to condensing supercritical vapor. If you haven't a supercritical vapor on hand, don't worry - just gently mix the water with dense sugar solution (e.g. the starch or maple syrup) - and watch...!!

Farsight's "toy model" supplies no testable predictions, but here's nothing strange on the fact, many public theories or even private insights are converting into AWT. What else would you expect at the case, the AWT is correct?
The AWT isn't based on any particular topology, but the foam model simplifies the explanation of many concepts a lot (some others is better to explain by torsion model, though, because the Aether fluctuations are the nested foamy spinning & twisting fluctuations of ultra-dense gas-fluid liquid, similar to condensing supercritical vapor. If you haven't a supercritical vapor on hand, don't worry - just gently mix the water with dense sugar solution (e.g. the starch or maple syrup) - and watch...!!

Farsight's "toy model" supplies no testable predictions, but here's nothing strange on the fact, many public theories or even private insights are converting into AWT. What else would you expect at the case, the AWT is correct?
QUOTE (Zephir+Aug 15 2007, 06:17 PM)
just gently mix the water with dense sugar solution (e.g. the starch or maple syrup) - and watch...!!
Don't you mean, diet-coke & mentos?
That's my version of the AWT 'big bang' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFf-kW1E0Tc
I can imagine the guy in the vid, as Zephir.
It's Aether FOAM, ejecting from his mouth!
Don't you mean, diet-coke & mentos?
That's my version of the AWT 'big bang' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFf-kW1E0Tc
I can imagine the guy in the vid, as Zephir.
It's Aether FOAM, ejecting from his mouth!
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 09:54 PM)
Don't you mean, diet-coke & mentos? That's my version of the AWT 'big bang' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFf-kW1E0Tc...
The BigBang rather appears like the condensation of supercritical plasma vapor under pressure inside of dense collapsed star. Because the energy spreading prefers the surface like the water waves are preferring the water surface, the formation of dense foamy mixture of density gradients will lead to the enormous and fast expansion of the observable space-time.
From this point of view the rest of "mentos coke" analogy appears quite relevant. The graviton foam is sort of dense coke foam, in fact. And the violent formation of foam corresponds the explosive inflation of space, formed by surface of foam (mem)branes.
The BigBang rather appears like the condensation of supercritical plasma vapor under pressure inside of dense collapsed star. Because the energy spreading prefers the surface like the water waves are preferring the water surface, the formation of dense foamy mixture of density gradients will lead to the enormous and fast expansion of the observable space-time.
From this point of view the rest of "mentos coke" analogy appears quite relevant. The graviton foam is sort of dense coke foam, in fact. And the violent formation of foam corresponds the explosive inflation of space, formed by surface of foam (mem)branes.
QUOTE (Zephir+Aug 15 2007, 08:43 PM)
From this point of view the rest of "mentos coke" analogy appears quite relevant. The graviton foam is sort of dense coke foam, in fact. And the violent formation of foam corresponds the explosive inflation of space, formed by surface of foam (mem)branes.
It was intended as a joke, not as a serious suggestion for AWT. Lighten-up Zeph!
It was intended as a joke, not as a serious suggestion for AWT. Lighten-up Zeph!
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 11:58 PM)
It was intended as a joke, not as a serious suggestion for AWT.
Don't worry.. - my feedback was intended as a joke as well...
Nevertheless, during a few recent months the forum had becomed an incredibly dummy chat and social club.
Don't worry.. - my feedback was intended as a joke as well...
Nevertheless, during a few recent months the forum had becomed an incredibly dummy chat and social club.
QUOTE (Zephir+Aug 15 2007, 09:05 PM)
Nevertheless, during a few recent months the forum had become an incredibly dummy chat and social club.
Well I'd make a few threads posting my theories, but I'm put-off about doing so, because I know that the moment I write a thread about any of them, I will instantly receive a torrent of abuse.
It's just not the right kind of environment.
Well I'd make a few threads posting my theories, but I'm put-off about doing so, because I know that the moment I write a thread about any of them, I will instantly receive a torrent of abuse.
It's just not the right kind of environment.
Do you doubt your theories?
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 14 2007, 09:30 PM)
QUOTE (LearmSceince+)
Also, you keep avoiding the question: if Lorentz invariance is not the mechanism responsible for time dilation, what would you change among the 4 postulates that allow you to derive Lorentz invariance?
It'd help if you gave 'the four postulates', whatever they are? I'll see what I can do.
this post and this one. A few days ago rpenner posted the same thing, but showing the math.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 14 2007, 09:30 PM)
The process of decay, given that an atom can be isolated, yet still decay; seems to be due to the internal processes at work, which eventually result in the decay.
I am not sure what part you are criticising, in order to come up with the idea that I suggested that muons watch photons moving in order to decide how long to live. You'll have to point out specifically what you are on about.
The mechanism of decay does not involve photons.
If there were an internal state of some kind, it would not need to involve photons either since the mechanism doesn't. But there is no internal state.
Also, your proposed mechanism would seem to be direction dependent. To make matters worse, what about an observer, also moving, in a different direction? How can everyone agree on the events? I believe your proposal is not consistent with Lorentz symmetry and would require a preferred frame to avoid contradictions.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 14 2007, 10:05 PM)
May it not be argued that these virtual bosons and whatnot, are simply particles more fundamental than photons? I mean, in order to see them, they would need to 'give off' matter which we could detect; but if they're smaller than the smallest form of matter...then whatever they give off, will be even smaller!
If the above was true, then you would never be able to see these particles, but you would be able to see their 'effect' on higher forms of matter. Such is why you can see magnetism at work, but never see the virtual bosons behind the magnetism itself.
I'm glad you are getting the kind of "underlying" explanation you were looking for.
Photons are a kind of boson. The others act similarly to give rise to other forces.
Photons are as fundamental as it gets. Your "give off" idea is leading to infinite regress. The (real) photon in absorbed by an electron in a molecule in the eye. The minimal interaction is thus:
Photon vanishes (*poof*). Electron gains energy.
The electron moves to a different orbital, changing the overall electric characteristics of the complex molecule, thus changing its shape, thus triggering a cascade of other effects throughout the body.
QUOTE
I argued that, there may be an alternate kind of collision - One that instead of repulsing the object away from the source (ie. The snooker player), would instead attract it towards the source.
Whether it attracts or repels is in context, and not known by the emitter. The "things" spit out by a negative charge don't know whether they will encounter another negative charge or a positive charge.
There is also one that moves sideways! Consider the magnetic effects around a wire carrying electric current. Oh, and gravity is even worse, since the direction it pulls would need to vary with distance from the source and velocity of the receiver in order to cancel out the aberration. But let's not consider gravity.
For Quantum Mechanics, there is also an interaction that, in addition to changing the momentum (or not), can change the identity of the particles and swap out various properties such as charge. So, it's getting more complicated, isn't it?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I argued that, there may be an alternate kind of collision - One that instead of repulsing the object away from the source (ie. The snooker player), would instead attract it towards the source. |
Whether it attracts or repels is in context, and not known by the emitter. The "things" spit out by a negative charge don't know whether they will encounter another negative charge or a positive charge.
There is also one that moves sideways! Consider the magnetic effects around a wire carrying electric current. Oh, and gravity is even worse, since the direction it pulls would need to vary with distance from the source and velocity of the receiver in order to cancel out the aberration. But let's not consider gravity.
For Quantum Mechanics, there is also an interaction that, in addition to changing the momentum (or not), can change the identity of the particles and swap out various properties such as charge. So, it's getting more complicated, isn't it?
I'm not so sure that we should treat them as waves, like the waves of the sea, but instead as merely the 'wave-like motion' of discrete particles themselves.
The waviness is not in the particle's motion at all. Think of a little one-handed clock inside the particle, spinning around at a constant rate. The position of the hand is the "phase".
QUOTE (Nick+Aug 16 2007, 12:21 AM)
Do you doubt your theories?
Nope, I'm just trying to generalize them. For example, the Aether theory doesn't appears very general hypothesis of our Universe, because it leads to the requirement of infinite dense and hot Aether at the same time. Infinities are problem in every causal theory.
Fortunately it seems, the infinitely hot and dense Aether is rather sort of optical illusion: sort of mirror hall or bumpy glass effect, which multiplies the images and the motion of Aether particles observed. This renders whole the concept of observable reality rather abstract and apparently anthropocentric. The reality appears as density gradient driven, because it's the most effective way, how to see it. For example, we can see the laser ray in the dark just because of dispersion of light at the atmosphere fluctuations. We can see the reality just because we are density gradients formed too and just a pair of gradients can interract mutually. What's the real reality, after then? On the other hand, if the atmosphere fluctuations would become too strong, the light would become absorbed readily - so here's a sort of reality optimization problem. This can be why we see the reality both chaotic, both causal so we can ask, how the reality should appear to become best observable?

After all, even the AWT doesn't explain, what the Aether really is! So here's a lotta place for explanation and generalization of Aether concept on behalf to avoidance of the Aether concept less or more completely. But this is not so easy task and it's way, way outside of every practical possibility to prove or refute it. The AWT predicts, we are living inside of black hole and the outer Universe differs very slightly from the inside Universe (a generalization of heliocentric principle, which basically says, the mankind existence isn't exceptional by any way both in space, both in time). But how to verify such hypothesis, extrapolate the less?
Despite of their complexity from formal point of view, the contemporary theories appears as a childish toy models with compare to the recursive Aether concept.
Of course, you can help me to think about it.
Nope, I'm just trying to generalize them. For example, the Aether theory doesn't appears very general hypothesis of our Universe, because it leads to the requirement of infinite dense and hot Aether at the same time. Infinities are problem in every causal theory.
Fortunately it seems, the infinitely hot and dense Aether is rather sort of optical illusion: sort of mirror hall or bumpy glass effect, which multiplies the images and the motion of Aether particles observed. This renders whole the concept of observable reality rather abstract and apparently anthropocentric. The reality appears as density gradient driven, because it's the most effective way, how to see it. For example, we can see the laser ray in the dark just because of dispersion of light at the atmosphere fluctuations. We can see the reality just because we are density gradients formed too and just a pair of gradients can interract mutually. What's the real reality, after then? On the other hand, if the atmosphere fluctuations would become too strong, the light would become absorbed readily - so here's a sort of reality optimization problem. This can be why we see the reality both chaotic, both causal so we can ask, how the reality should appear to become best observable?

After all, even the AWT doesn't explain, what the Aether really is! So here's a lotta place for explanation and generalization of Aether concept on behalf to avoidance of the Aether concept less or more completely. But this is not so easy task and it's way, way outside of every practical possibility to prove or refute it. The AWT predicts, we are living inside of black hole and the outer Universe differs very slightly from the inside Universe (a generalization of heliocentric principle, which basically says, the mankind existence isn't exceptional by any way both in space, both in time). But how to verify such hypothesis, extrapolate the less?
Despite of their complexity from formal point of view, the contemporary theories appears as a childish toy models with compare to the recursive Aether concept.
Of course, you can help me to think about it.
QUOTE (bukh+Aug 14 2007, 10:28 PM)
I find it difficult intuitively to grasp what is being claimed. Perhaps we need better concepts when we are moving subatomic downwards.
Bingo! That's why analogies with things you know intuitively are hard to produce. So start learning new concepts, such as conjugate variables, complex numbers, hamiltonian and lagrangian, etc.
meaning that they are moving in empty space - nothingness - and do we accept this concept of nothingness ? - or alternatively if there exist no such thing as nothingness - what then is "empty space" composed of - and if there is something in empty space - how then can particles like electrons then move around and pass near each other -
You just have to accept that the concepts of "position" and "velocity" exist. Two (possibly virtual) particles that overlap their positions (they are fuzzy, not points) may cause an "interaction" which changes some of the properties of those particles, creates and destroys them at that point, etc. If they don't overlap, nothing else matters and may as well not exist. Everything is emptiness except the here and now.
and BTW what kind of forces are in play - and virtual photon - is that another way of trying to explain that we do not know what is going on - so let us invent virtual particles - ??
No, the opposite. We know what is going on, and give it a name, and eventually try and explain it without all those new concepts that were shaken out to solve this very problem.
Are they really that insecure over their theories when people with mainstream knowledge try and ask questions they might also ask of mainstream physics? I
Yes
Is it that they know their theories are wrong, but they can't admit it because of the amount of 'work' they've put into their pet theory?
A true crank will NEVER admit that his/her theory is wrong. This is the trademark of a real crank.
ok..
If it's 100% empty space, then that means it's a complete vacuum. That makes no sense to me.
btw, your theory sounds alot like AWT, but without musings about 'foam' all the time.
The concept of space and vacuum, and "something and nothing" is extremely tricky, Bryn. Since people are unable to grasp very simple concepts such as time energy mass charge and gravity, and since I don't want to suffer plagiarism, I'm going to leave it there.
My "theory" as presented in a series of "....... EXPLAINED" essays, is called RELATIVITY+. But note that it doesn't qualify as a theory. It's merely a toy model. There seems to be some similarities between RELATIVITY+ and Zephir's AWT, whatever that is - it isn't laid out anywhere, and he's changing things as he nicks ideas. But it's not unusual for alternative models to share some common ground.
Bingo! That's why analogies with things you know intuitively are hard to produce. So start learning new concepts, such as conjugate variables, complex numbers, hamiltonian and lagrangian, etc.
QUOTE (bukh+Aug 14 2007, 10:28 PM)
meaning that they are moving in empty space - nothingness - and do we accept this concept of nothingness ? - or alternatively if there exist no such thing as nothingness - what then is "empty space" composed of - and if there is something in empty space - how then can particles like electrons then move around and pass near each other -
You just have to accept that the concepts of "position" and "velocity" exist. Two (possibly virtual) particles that overlap their positions (they are fuzzy, not points) may cause an "interaction" which changes some of the properties of those particles, creates and destroys them at that point, etc. If they don't overlap, nothing else matters and may as well not exist. Everything is emptiness except the here and now.
QUOTE (bukh+Aug 14 2007, 10:28 PM)
and BTW what kind of forces are in play - and virtual photon - is that another way of trying to explain that we do not know what is going on - so let us invent virtual particles - ??
No, the opposite. We know what is going on, and give it a name, and eventually try and explain it without all those new concepts that were shaken out to solve this very problem.
QUOTE (bukh+Aug 14 2007, 10:47 PM)
Hej Dallas
QUOTE: "So. now you have heard again about "virtual particles that mediate forces"
Sounds not easy to understand - can you in plain words try to explain what is meant by virtual particles mediating forces.
Sure.
You know how you normally use "fields" to model forces?
The field is continuous, with a value at every point.
But, there is a smallest scale, so the field can't really be continuous. But it behaves as if it is!
Instead of saying that the particle passes smoothly through the field being continuously affected by the every-changing force, you say that the particle moves through the field's region for a while and at some point *bonk* a big effect happens. The probability of that occurring and the uncertainty of exactly where and when it occurred conspire to give you the same result as a smooth constant application of force subject to the uncertainty relations.
Imagine a curtained-off 10x10 square in a large room like a basketball court. You roll a basketball under the curtain at a certain angle and speed, and after a few seconds it comes out from under the curtain on the other side, at some different velocity and angle. You do some more trials and measurements and conclude that a force acts uniformly over the 10-foot span. Perhaps there is a breeze blowing in that area that continuously adds energy to the ball during the time it is in there.
Well, what really is happening is that someone is behind the curtain, and he gives the ball a little kick at some point. He arranges it to give the results you measured, but does it in discrete changes, not with a continuous force.
But you can't look behind the curtain.
So don't worry about it.
QUOTE: "So. now you have heard again about "virtual particles that mediate forces"
Sounds not easy to understand - can you in plain words try to explain what is meant by virtual particles mediating forces.
Sure.
You know how you normally use "fields" to model forces?
The field is continuous, with a value at every point.
But, there is a smallest scale, so the field can't really be continuous. But it behaves as if it is!
Instead of saying that the particle passes smoothly through the field being continuously affected by the every-changing force, you say that the particle moves through the field's region for a while and at some point *bonk* a big effect happens. The probability of that occurring and the uncertainty of exactly where and when it occurred conspire to give you the same result as a smooth constant application of force subject to the uncertainty relations.
Imagine a curtained-off 10x10 square in a large room like a basketball court. You roll a basketball under the curtain at a certain angle and speed, and after a few seconds it comes out from under the curtain on the other side, at some different velocity and angle. You do some more trials and measurements and conclude that a force acts uniformly over the 10-foot span. Perhaps there is a breeze blowing in that area that continuously adds energy to the ball during the time it is in there.
Well, what really is happening is that someone is behind the curtain, and he gives the ball a little kick at some point. He arranges it to give the results you measured, but does it in discrete changes, not with a continuous force.
But you can't look behind the curtain.
So don't worry about it.
If light is a boson and other bosons can have mass why not light?
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 12:17 PM)
You know, it would be far more productive if people actually explained why people are wrong, rather than just state that they are wrong.
It's like saying: "You're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why"
Actually, people can learn by internally generalizing from "yes" and "no" examples.
That is more fundamental then language.
For example, I taught someone to play chess when he was very young. I could not get him to understand "diagonal", so I just showed him some examples, and then would not let him make an incorrect move. He quickly grasped the rule for the bishop anyway. And then he went on to learn to move the knight correctly too, after just a few attempts!
Yet, at that age he could not fully understand zero as a number, nor could he accept using a different object as a substitute for a lost chess piece.
It's like saying: "You're wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why"
Actually, people can learn by internally generalizing from "yes" and "no" examples.
That is more fundamental then language.
For example, I taught someone to play chess when he was very young. I could not get him to understand "diagonal", so I just showed him some examples, and then would not let him make an incorrect move. He quickly grasped the rule for the bishop anyway. And then he went on to learn to move the knight correctly too, after just a few attempts!
Yet, at that age he could not fully understand zero as a number, nor could he accept using a different object as a substitute for a lost chess piece.
Having read Mass explained, charge explained, time explained and energy explained, I have to be honest and say i've found them unenlightening, and they don't live up to their titles.
For example:
Mass Explained:
Why should a photon tied in a knot suddenly have mass?
Why should untying 2 knotted photons produce three or more photons?
What is the underlying mechanism that couples mass to gravity?
Charge explained:
Why should a photon chasing it's own tail suddenly develop a charge?
Why should tying the photon in the opposite direction reverse the charge?
Why should one photon tie itself into two knots?
How can you derive the charge of the electron from the field strength of the original photon?
Time explained:
I found the first part of this frought with erroneous analogies, the first and most obvious one that springs to mind is that I remember reading an article somewhere that when bats use their 'SONAR' it actually activates many of the same centers of their brain as sight does in humans, so a bat might argue for the existence of Phonons.
My other biggest objection to this 'essay' is a funadmental one.
You're conjecture that time is the passage of events is neither provable nor disprovable, because in order to confirm it, we must make an observation, or a measurement, but observations and measurements are in themselves events.
You also haven't explained why the direction that we perceive time to flow in happens to also be the direction of increasing entropy. Fundamentally, it would seem that any attempt to explain time must account for this observation.
I've also outlined my objection to describing gravity as a gradient in permittivity, and conjecturing that gravitational lensing occurs because light slows down - an objection the author has failed to adequitely explain, or demonstrate where my conjecture is in error.
As far as energy explained goes. There were several things that bugged me, but I can't put my finger on any of them. Maybe once i've gotten over this flu/chest infection i'll take another look and see if I can nail down specifics.
For example:
Mass Explained:
Why should a photon tied in a knot suddenly have mass?
Why should untying 2 knotted photons produce three or more photons?
What is the underlying mechanism that couples mass to gravity?
Charge explained:
Why should a photon chasing it's own tail suddenly develop a charge?
Why should tying the photon in the opposite direction reverse the charge?
Why should one photon tie itself into two knots?
How can you derive the charge of the electron from the field strength of the original photon?
Time explained:
I found the first part of this frought with erroneous analogies, the first and most obvious one that springs to mind is that I remember reading an article somewhere that when bats use their 'SONAR' it actually activates many of the same centers of their brain as sight does in humans, so a bat might argue for the existence of Phonons.
My other biggest objection to this 'essay' is a funadmental one.
You're conjecture that time is the passage of events is neither provable nor disprovable, because in order to confirm it, we must make an observation, or a measurement, but observations and measurements are in themselves events.
You also haven't explained why the direction that we perceive time to flow in happens to also be the direction of increasing entropy. Fundamentally, it would seem that any attempt to explain time must account for this observation.
I've also outlined my objection to describing gravity as a gradient in permittivity, and conjecturing that gravitational lensing occurs because light slows down - an objection the author has failed to adequitely explain, or demonstrate where my conjecture is in error.
As far as energy explained goes. There were several things that bugged me, but I can't put my finger on any of them. Maybe once i've gotten over this flu/chest infection i'll take another look and see if I can nail down specifics.
QUOTE (Nick+Aug 15 2007, 10:15 PM)
If light is a boson and other bosons can have mass why not light?
Because electric charge is conserved and space has perfect symmetry.
The "weak" bosons may have mass because the "weak charge" is not conserved. The W bosons only see left-handed particles (or right-handed antiparticles), so a particle gains or loses "weak charge" simply by reflecting it, or on whether the W is in front of or behind the particle! That doesn't happen with electric charge.
If the photon had mass, any mass at all even if smaller than what we've tried to measure, then electric charge would be "optional" somehow based on context.
Because electric charge is conserved and space has perfect symmetry.
The "weak" bosons may have mass because the "weak charge" is not conserved. The W bosons only see left-handed particles (or right-handed antiparticles), so a particle gains or loses "weak charge" simply by reflecting it, or on whether the W is in front of or behind the particle! That doesn't happen with electric charge.
If the photon had mass, any mass at all even if smaller than what we've tried to measure, then electric charge would be "optional" somehow based on context.
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Jul 28 2007, 04:39 AM)
Has anyone ever found a wormhole?
No, never. Nor has anyone ever found a rip in space. Nor has anyone found a hole in space. Nor has anyone ever warped space. There are absolutely no examples of spatial deformation.
Some say 'black holes' are such examples, yet the singularity is not viewable, so they are essentially speculating, rather than providing evidence.
It is why, based upon the complete lack of spatial deformation, I have taken the belief upon myself, that to the best of our knowledge, spatial deformation is not possible.
Hence why I give little interest to theories which feature spatial deformation, albeit I do not rule out such theories, just like I do not rule out spatial deformation. I just don't 'believe' them, based upon the sheer lack of evidence.
No, never. Nor has anyone ever found a rip in space. Nor has anyone found a hole in space. Nor has anyone ever warped space. There are absolutely no examples of spatial deformation.
Some say 'black holes' are such examples, yet the singularity is not viewable, so they are essentially speculating, rather than providing evidence.
It is why, based upon the complete lack of spatial deformation, I have taken the belief upon myself, that to the best of our knowledge, spatial deformation is not possible.
Hence why I give little interest to theories which feature spatial deformation, albeit I do not rule out such theories, just like I do not rule out spatial deformation. I just don't 'believe' them, based upon the sheer lack of evidence.
There's another aspect of the 'Psyche of the Crank' that I don't understand.
Why is it that any genuine question asked of said crank is instantly interpreted as an attempt to debunk their theories?
Are they really that insecure over their theories when people with mainstream knowledge try and ask questions they might also ask of mainstream physics? Is it that they know their theories are wrong, but they can't admit it because of the amount of 'work' they've put into their pet theory?
Why is it that any genuine question asked of said crank is instantly interpreted as an attempt to debunk their theories?
Are they really that insecure over their theories when people with mainstream knowledge try and ask questions they might also ask of mainstream physics? Is it that they know their theories are wrong, but they can't admit it because of the amount of 'work' they've put into their pet theory?
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 15 2007, 11:59 PM)
Why is it that any genuine question asked of said crank is instantly interpreted as an attempt to debunk their theories?
Maybe you should go write a scientific paper on it. Slap some maths in there for good measure. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. You go do that.
Maybe you should go write a scientific paper on it. Slap some maths in there for good measure. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. You go do that.
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 15 2007, 11:59 PM)
Are they really that insecure over their theories when people with mainstream knowledge try and ask questions they might also ask of mainstream physics? I
Yes
QUOTE
Is it that they know their theories are wrong, but they can't admit it because of the amount of 'work' they've put into their pet theory?
A true crank will NEVER admit that his/her theory is wrong. This is the trademark of a real crank.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 16 2007, 12:04 PM)
Maybe you should go write a scientific paper on it. Slap some maths in there for good measure. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. You go do that.
And yet, this statement is completely consitent with my point (and another aspect of crank behaviour).
And as afar as writing a paper on it goes?
I have better things to do with my time at this point. And maths doesn't generally work in very well with Psychology, unless you're doing a statistical analysis.
And yet, this statement is completely consitent with my point (and another aspect of crank behaviour).
And as afar as writing a paper on it goes?
I have better things to do with my time at this point. And maths doesn't generally work in very well with Psychology, unless you're doing a statistical analysis.
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 16 2007, 01:29 AM)
I have better things to do with my time
Yet you are content to post non-productive rubbish about 'The nature of cranks'
Yet you are content to post non-productive rubbish about 'The nature of cranks'
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 16 2007, 01:45 PM)
Yet you are content to post non-productive rubbish about 'The nature of cranks'
I'm not going to be baited into an argument with you.
I'm not going to be baited into an argument with you.
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 16 2007, 02:09 AM)
I'm not going to be baited into an argument with you.
mwahahaha
mwahahaha
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 11:55 PM)
There are absolutely no examples of spatial deformation.
If there were an example of spatial deformation, how would you expect to observe it? What properties would you expect it to have?
I would imagine that it would make objects move in lines that weren't straight, or appear to be 'pulled/pushed' by a mysterious force.
Since both of these have been observed, spatial deformation makes some kind of sense to me, however non-intuitive it is, however difficult (maybe impossible) it is to visualise it in my head.
If there were an example of spatial deformation, how would you expect to observe it? What properties would you expect it to have?
I would imagine that it would make objects move in lines that weren't straight, or appear to be 'pulled/pushed' by a mysterious force.
Since both of these have been observed, spatial deformation makes some kind of sense to me, however non-intuitive it is, however difficult (maybe impossible) it is to visualise it in my head.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 15 2007, 06:09 PM)
If it's 100% empty space, then that means it's a complete vacuum. That makes no sense to me.
btw, your theory sounds alot like AWT, but without musings about 'foam' all the time.
The concept of space and vacuum, and "something and nothing" is extremely tricky, Bryn. Since people are unable to grasp very simple concepts such as time energy mass charge and gravity, and since I don't want to suffer plagiarism, I'm going to leave it there.
My "theory" as presented in a series of "....... EXPLAINED" essays, is called RELATIVITY+. But note that it doesn't qualify as a theory. It's merely a toy model. There seems to be some similarities between RELATIVITY+ and Zephir's AWT, whatever that is - it isn't laid out anywhere, and he's changing things as he nicks ideas. But it's not unusual for alternative models to share some common ground.
QUOTE (bm1957+Aug 16 2007, 08:08 AM)
If there were an example of spatial deformation, how would you expect to observe it? What properties would you expect it to have?
I would imagine that it would make objects move in lines that weren't straight, or appear to be 'pulled/pushed' by a mysterious force.
Since both of these have been observed, spatial deformation makes some kind of sense to me, however non-intuitive it is, however difficult (maybe impossible) it is to visualise it in my head.
Yes, you'd expect to observe it indirectly, as a force. Whilst we commonly think of gravity as the result of a "curved spacetime", instead it's the electromagnetic force that is the result of "twisted space". It's hard to visualize it and difficult to get a grasp the idea. And some people don't even try because they're too busy dismissing ideas as "crank". But if you actually do the plate dipping and play with Falaco Solitons as described in CHARGE EXPLAINED, you can grasp it. Here's another excerpt:
I would imagine that it would make objects move in lines that weren't straight, or appear to be 'pulled/pushed' by a mysterious force.
Since both of these have been observed, spatial deformation makes some kind of sense to me, however non-intuitive it is, however difficult (maybe impossible) it is to visualise it in my head.
Yes, you'd expect to observe it indirectly, as a force. Whilst we commonly think of gravity as the result of a "curved spacetime", instead it's the electromagnetic force that is the result of "twisted space". It's hard to visualize it and difficult to get a grasp the idea. And some people don't even try because they're too busy dismissing ideas as "crank". But if you actually do the plate dipping and play with Falaco Solitons as described in CHARGE EXPLAINED, you can grasp it. Here's another excerpt:
QUOTE (Farsight+)
Note that that the electric field isn’t just a twist in one dimension, it’s actually in three dimensions. Your electron digs down like a drill bit from any direction. But it’s very difficult to think in three dimensions. Our primary input is visual, and whilst binocular vision permits depth perception, we tend to think in two dimensions. That’s why getting the feel for something is what intuition and grasp are all about. It gives us a better, three-dimensional concept. To appreciate this, get a block of plasticine or maybe the wax from Babybel cheese, and make a cube. Now try twisting it in three dimensions. Two twists is easy: twist, turn, twist. But doing the third one is surprisingly difficult. In the end you have to just do it by feel: twist turn, twist turn, twist. You end up with something like this:
The easiest way to get your head round the geometry is to imagine that the twisted cube is a twisted block of water, and we’ve got to swim through it. As you’re swimming behind me you find that all the twisting and turning means you’ve got to swim further than you thought, and you come out of the other side gasping for air. But you now understand refraction. Light travels slower through a glass block because it’s got to make its way through all that twisting and turning in all directions, be it positive or negative...
The easiest way to get your head round the geometry is to imagine that the twisted cube is a twisted block of water, and we’ve got to swim through it. As you’re swimming behind me you find that all the twisting and turning means you’ve got to swim further than you thought, and you come out of the other side gasping for air. But you now understand refraction. Light travels slower through a glass block because it’s got to make its way through all that twisting and turning in all directions, be it positive or negative...
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 15 2007, 11:59 PM)
There's another aspect of the 'Psyche of the Crank' that I don't understand.
Why is it that any genuine question asked of said crank is instantly interpreted as an attempt to debunk their theories?
Are they really that insecure over their theories when people with mainstream knowledge try and ask questions they might also ask of mainstream physics? Is it that they know their theories are wrong, but they can't admit it because of the amount of 'work' they've put into their pet theory?
What you don't understand, is the Psychology of Belief. Unlike Bryn, I don't "believe" anything. I have opinions and theories, but I'm very wary of belief or conviction or groupthink. I used to think like you do about the things I'd been told. Then when I tried to explain something like charge I found that actually, I couldn't. I thought I understood something, but I didn't. The explanations you find on the internet for gravity will talk about "Einstein's curved spacetime", but this is not Einstein's idea, and curved spacetime is in itself not actually explained. Realising all this was quite an eye-opener. It was a wake-up call. Now I find I've explained these things in terms of geometry, and have developed a toy model called RELATIVITY+. I don't expect it's perfect, so that's why it's on a discussion forum. I've had some very useful feedback. But what's quite striking is how many people are unable to examine it rationally and enter into sincere discussion about its merits or otherwise.
The problem is this: your questions aren't actually genuine. Because you have a predisposition that says "this new idea runs counter to my belief, therefore it must be wrong". This prevents you from being sincere and open. Hence you claim that some idea is "clearly" wrong, when it isn't, and you haven't actually provided any evidence that it is. Your only "evidence" is your beliefs, and you will not examine those beliefs. Try explaining what charge is, write it down, and then look at it critically. You will find that actually, it is no explanation at all. But you will dismiss my explanation without examining it carefully in an open-minded and rational fashion. Instead you persuade yourself that some new idea is "clearly" crank material to be debunked. And then you bolster your conviction by fooling yourself that people like me have some kind of psychological issue and are insecure.
It isn't me. It's you.
Why is it that any genuine question asked of said crank is instantly interpreted as an attempt to debunk their theories?
Are they really that insecure over their theories when people with mainstream knowledge try and ask questions they might also ask of mainstream physics? Is it that they know their theories are wrong, but they can't admit it because of the amount of 'work' they've put into their pet theory?
What you don't understand, is the Psychology of Belief. Unlike Bryn, I don't "believe" anything. I have opinions and theories, but I'm very wary of belief or conviction or groupthink. I used to think like you do about the things I'd been told. Then when I tried to explain something like charge I found that actually, I couldn't. I thought I understood something, but I didn't. The explanations you find on the internet for gravity will talk about "Einstein's curved spacetime", but this is not Einstein's idea, and curved spacetime is in itself not actually explained. Realising all this was quite an eye-opener. It was a wake-up call. Now I find I've explained these things in terms of geometry, and have developed a toy model called RELATIVITY+. I don't expect it's perfect, so that's why it's on a discussion forum. I've had some very useful feedback. But what's quite striking is how many people are unable to examine it rationally and enter into sincere discussion about its merits or otherwise.
The problem is this: your questions aren't actually genuine. Because you have a predisposition that says "this new idea runs counter to my belief, therefore it must be wrong". This prevents you from being sincere and open. Hence you claim that some idea is "clearly" wrong, when it isn't, and you haven't actually provided any evidence that it is. Your only "evidence" is your beliefs, and you will not examine those beliefs. Try explaining what charge is, write it down, and then look at it critically. You will find that actually, it is no explanation at all. But you will dismiss my explanation without examining it carefully in an open-minded and rational fashion. Instead you persuade yourself that some new idea is "clearly" crank material to be debunked. And then you bolster your conviction by fooling yourself that people like me have some kind of psychological issue and are insecure.
It isn't me. It's you.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 16 2007, 10:10 AM)
Yes, you'd expect to observe it indirectly, as a force. Whilst we commonly think of gravity as the result of a "curved spacetime", instead it's the electromagnetic force that is the result of "twisted space". It's hard to visualize it and difficult to get a grasp the idea. And some people don't even try because they're too busy dismissing ideas as "crank". But if you actually do the plate dipping and play with Falaco Solitons as described in CHARGE EXPLAINED, you can grasp it. Here's another excerpt:
Why did you quote me?
My question was aimed at Bryn and your post is mostly completely irrelevant to my question...
Since you insist on posting excerpts from your essay, here's a challenge:
Will you provide details of the solid you posted a picture of such that anybody could recreate it exactly just from your details? It could be a list of transformations, it could be an equation (parametric or otherwise), or it could just be narratively. It must be exactly reproducible though.
If you can't, then your picture is worthless.
Why did you quote me?
My question was aimed at Bryn and your post is mostly completely irrelevant to my question...
Since you insist on posting excerpts from your essay, here's a challenge:
Will you provide details of the solid you posted a picture of such that anybody could recreate it exactly just from your details? It could be a list of transformations, it could be an equation (parametric or otherwise), or it could just be narratively. It must be exactly reproducible though.
If you can't, then your picture is worthless.
QUOTE (bm1957+Aug 16 2007, 11:14 AM)
Why did you quote me?
My question was aimed at Bryn and your post is mostly completely irrelevant to my question...
Since you insist on posting excerpts from your essay, here's a challenge:
Will you provide details of the solid you posted a picture of such that anybody could recreate it exactly just from your details? It could be a list of transformations, it could be an equation (parametric or otherwise), or it could just be narratively. It must be exactly reproducible though.
If you can't, then your picture is worthless.
Take a cube and twist it by ninety degrees in all three dimensions. It's a visualisation of what charge actually is. The essay that contains it explains electric field, the magnetic field, refraction, the Faraday Effect, and high temperature superconduction.
OK, that's it. You never read what I say, so get lost. Don't talk to me again. And I won't talk to you.
My question was aimed at Bryn and your post is mostly completely irrelevant to my question...
Since you insist on posting excerpts from your essay, here's a challenge:
Will you provide details of the solid you posted a picture of such that anybody could recreate it exactly just from your details? It could be a list of transformations, it could be an equation (parametric or otherwise), or it could just be narratively. It must be exactly reproducible though.
If you can't, then your picture is worthless.
Take a cube and twist it by ninety degrees in all three dimensions. It's a visualisation of what charge actually is. The essay that contains it explains electric field, the magnetic field, refraction, the Faraday Effect, and high temperature superconduction.
OK, that's it. You never read what I say, so get lost. Don't talk to me again. And I won't talk to you.
QUOTE (bm1957+Aug 16 2007, 08:08 AM)
If there were an example of spatial deformation, how would you expect to observe it? What properties would you expect it to have?
I suppose I would imagine them as being similar to what science-fiction thinks they look like. Albeit, there are movies like Cube 2, which feature spatial deformation, so that when you open a door, you are looking at yourself from a doorway behind you. Crazy stuff, good movie as well btw
A wormhole would, I suppose, look like some kind of doorway which you can see distant places through, whilst the edge of the hole, being some kind of interference with normal space. Or alternatively, you could have the Stargate movie style of wormhole, which has a watery event horizon. I just don't know for sure, of course, because I've never seen a proper wormhole. It could look different from anything anyone has ever produced.
The same goes for warped space, compressed space, etc.
It is through science-fiction that such ideas get alot of attention and support.
But really, I believe that if there is any kind of spatial deformation. The view should be visibly different, when compared with the same view without deformation.
I suppose I would imagine them as being similar to what science-fiction thinks they look like. Albeit, there are movies like Cube 2, which feature spatial deformation, so that when you open a door, you are looking at yourself from a doorway behind you. Crazy stuff, good movie as well btw
A wormhole would, I suppose, look like some kind of doorway which you can see distant places through, whilst the edge of the hole, being some kind of interference with normal space. Or alternatively, you could have the Stargate movie style of wormhole, which has a watery event horizon. I just don't know for sure, of course, because I've never seen a proper wormhole. It could look different from anything anyone has ever produced.
The same goes for warped space, compressed space, etc.
It is through science-fiction that such ideas get alot of attention and support.
But really, I believe that if there is any kind of spatial deformation. The view should be visibly different, when compared with the same view without deformation.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 16 2007, 11:47 AM)
I suppose I would imagine them as being similar to what science-fiction thinks they look like. Albeit, there are movies like Cube 2, which feature spatial deformation, so that when you open a door, you are looking at yourself from a doorway behind you. Crazy stuff, good movie as well btw 
A wormhole would, I suppose, look like some kind of doorway which you can see distant places through, whilst the edge of the hole, being some kind of interference with normal space. Or alternatively, you could have the Stargate movie style of wormhole, which has a watery event horizon. I just don't know for sure, of course, because I've never seen a proper wormhole. It could look different from anything anyone has ever produced.
The same goes for warped space, compressed space, etc.
It is through science-fiction that such ideas get alot of attention and support.
But really, I believe that if there is any kind of spatial deformation. The view should be visibly different, when compared with the same view without deformation.
I think the reason we don't see any of that is because of the massive scales involved.
Gravitational lensing doesn't count then?
A wormhole would, I suppose, look like some kind of doorway which you can see distant places through, whilst the edge of the hole, being some kind of interference with normal space. Or alternatively, you could have the Stargate movie style of wormhole, which has a watery event horizon. I just don't know for sure, of course, because I've never seen a proper wormhole. It could look different from anything anyone has ever produced.
The same goes for warped space, compressed space, etc.
It is through science-fiction that such ideas get alot of attention and support.
But really, I believe that if there is any kind of spatial deformation. The view should be visibly different, when compared with the same view without deformation.
I think the reason we don't see any of that is because of the massive scales involved.
Gravitational lensing doesn't count then?
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 16 2007, 11:44 AM)
Take a cube and twist it by ninety degrees in all three dimensions. It's a visualisation of what charge actually is. The essay that contains it explains electric field, the magnetic field, refraction, the Faraday Effect, and high temperature superconduction.
OK, that's it. You never read what I say, so get lost. Don't talk to me again. And I won't talk to you.
HAHA
That's RUBBISH!!!
The funniest thing is that you obviously know it's rubbish because there's no other reason for you to have got offensive. I asked an honest question and you probably should have just ignored it and hoped no-one noticed instead of giving such a pants answer!
HA!
OK, that's it. You never read what I say, so get lost. Don't talk to me again. And I won't talk to you.
HAHA
That's RUBBISH!!!
The funniest thing is that you obviously know it's rubbish because there's no other reason for you to have got offensive. I asked an honest question and you probably should have just ignored it and hoped no-one noticed instead of giving such a pants answer!
HA!
I'm honest. You're not. You puzzle about visualizing spatial deformation, I show you, and you don't even read what I said. Instead you find reason to scoff. Now listen up: you've got a deep-seated psychological problem. You're turning into a troll. Don't talk to me again.
QUOTE (bm1957+Aug 16 2007, 11:55 AM)
Gravitational lensing doesn't count then?
Nah, that's just the gravity of the mass you are using as a lens, pulling the photons (light freq) towards it, slightly bending it's path in the process, to enable lensing.
I see gravity as a merely 'matter to matter' interaction, just like when photons hit you, the particle of gravity (gravitons?) hit you too. Albeit unlike photons, they pull you towards the source, rather than repel you away from it. It's a state system, push/pull, on/off, true/false etc. Same thing when it comes to kinetic energy, which has attract/repel states People need to get out of the mentality that when something collides with you, it will always push you away in classic Newtonian ways. Take atomic bonds for instance. They attract rather than repel. Or how about the strong force? That attracts rather than repels. Same with gravity too.
Imho, the whole 'spatial deformation due to gravity' theory (As created by Einstein), has been a grand deception.
Nah, that's just the gravity of the mass you are using as a lens, pulling the photons (light freq) towards it, slightly bending it's path in the process, to enable lensing.
I see gravity as a merely 'matter to matter' interaction, just like when photons hit you, the particle of gravity (gravitons?) hit you too. Albeit unlike photons, they pull you towards the source, rather than repel you away from it. It's a state system, push/pull, on/off, true/false etc. Same thing when it comes to kinetic energy, which has attract/repel states People need to get out of the mentality that when something collides with you, it will always push you away in classic Newtonian ways. Take atomic bonds for instance. They attract rather than repel. Or how about the strong force? That attracts rather than repels. Same with gravity too.
Imho, the whole 'spatial deformation due to gravity' theory (As created by Einstein), has been a grand deception.
QUOTE (Bryn Richards+Aug 16 2007, 12:11 PM)
Nah, that's just the gravity of the mass you are using as a lens, pulling the photons (light freq) towards it, slightly bending it's path in the process, to enable lensing.
I see gravity as a merely 'matter to matter' interaction, just like when photons hit you, the particle of gravity (gravitons?) hit you too. Albeit unlike photons, they pull you towards the source, rather than repel you away from it. It's a state system, push/pull, on/off, true/false etc. Same thing when it comes to kinetic energy, which has attract/repel states People need to get out of the mentality that when something collides with you, it will always push you away in classic Newtonian ways. Take atomic bonds for instance. They attract rather than repel. Or how about the strong force? That attracts rather than repels. Same with gravity too.
Imho, the whole 'spatial deformation due to gravity' theory (As created by Einstein), has been a grand deception.
Maybe, but my question was if space was distorted by gravity, surely what we see is what you would expect to see.
My point is that gravitational lensing could be interpreted as an example of space distortion, and who are you to declare that it definitely isn't. (That sounds more confrontational than it was meant to come across.)
You stated that we see no examples of spatial distortion, but with your open mind I think that you should accept that if there was an example, that's what it might look like.
I see gravity as a merely 'matter to matter' interaction, just like when photons hit you, the particle of gravity (gravitons?) hit you too. Albeit unlike photons, they pull you towards the source, rather than repel you away from it. It's a state system, push/pull, on/off, true/false etc. Same thing when it comes to kinetic energy, which has attract/repel states People need to get out of the mentality that when something collides with you, it will always push you away in classic Newtonian ways. Take atomic bonds for instance. They attract rather than repel. Or how about the strong force? That attracts rather than repels. Same with gravity too.
Imho, the whole 'spatial deformation due to gravity' theory (As created by Einstein), has been a grand deception.
Maybe, but my question was if space was distorted by gravity, surely what we see is what you would expect to see.
My point is that gravitational lensing could be interpreted as an example of space distortion, and who are you to declare that it definitely isn't. (That sounds more confrontational than it was meant to come across.)
You stated that we see no examples of spatial distortion, but with your open mind I think that you should accept that if there was an example, that's what it might look like.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 16 2007, 12:06 PM)
You puzzle about visualizing spatial deformation, I show you,
Nope, you obviously didn't read what I said.
I specifically asked Bryn how he would expect the curvature of space due to gravity to manifest itself if it were true and we could observe it; in order to follow up with a pre-concieved line of reasoning which I believed to be relevant.
You interjected by spouting some nonsense (I'm not saying it's wrong, just that what you posted was nonsensical) about charge being explained by a twisted cube accompanied by a pretty picture which you couldn't even define.
Your misunderstanding of my post doesn't make me dishonest. Your continued attacks, however, do lower your credibility even further (if that's possible).
Good day to you, sir
Nope, you obviously didn't read what I said.
I specifically asked Bryn how he would expect the curvature of space due to gravity to manifest itself if it were true and we could observe it; in order to follow up with a pre-concieved line of reasoning which I believed to be relevant.
You interjected by spouting some nonsense (I'm not saying it's wrong, just that what you posted was nonsensical) about charge being explained by a twisted cube accompanied by a pretty picture which you couldn't even define.
Your misunderstanding of my post doesn't make me dishonest. Your continued attacks, however, do lower your credibility even further (if that's possible).
Good day to you, sir
QUOTE (bm1957+Aug 16 2007, 12:51 PM)
My point is that gravitational lensing could be interpreted as an example of space distortion, and who are you to declare that it definitely isn't. (That sounds more confrontational than it was meant to come across.)
You stated that we see no examples of spatial distortion, but with your open mind I think that you should accept that if there was an example, that's what it might look like.
I did not say that it definitely isn't a spatial deformation, nor am I saying it is. The simple fact is, we just don't know for sure.
Hence why I am here, asking for 'better examples'. Of which, there seem to be none.
It's like, the whole premise of spatial deformation, is currently based off that one example, that we don't even know for sure whether it's true or not!
I just want 'decent' verification of a spatial deformation.
I've given examples - Wormholes, portals to look at yourself from behind, spatial warp to make A closer to B or intersect as AB to make distance = 0 between two points in space....you get the picture??
Do that for me, and I will drop my theories, and fanatically embrace spatial tangibility.
I promise!
You stated that we see no examples of spatial distortion, but with your open mind I think that you should accept that if there was an example, that's what it might look like.
I did not say that it definitely isn't a spatial deformation, nor am I saying it is. The simple fact is, we just don't know for sure.
Hence why I am here, asking for 'better examples'. Of which, there seem to be none.
It's like, the whole premise of spatial deformation, is currently based off that one example, that we don't even know for sure whether it's true or not!
I just want 'decent' verification of a spatial deformation.
I've given examples - Wormholes, portals to look at yourself from behind, spatial warp to make A closer to B or intersect as AB to make distance = 0 between two points in space....you get the picture??
Do that for me, and I will drop my theories, and fanatically embrace spatial tangibility.
I promise!
QUOTE (bm1957+Aug 16 2007, 11:59 AM)
HAHA
That's RUBBISH!!!
The funniest thing is that you obviously know it's rubbish because there's no other reason for you to have got offensive. I asked an honest question and you probably should have just ignored it and hoped no-one noticed instead of giving such a pants answer!
HA!
It is very simple: Farsight stole the image without permission from this website:
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...TwistedCube.jpg
The image has no connection with his "theories" and he has no clue how it was generated .
That's RUBBISH!!!
The funniest thing is that you obviously know it's rubbish because there's no other reason for you to have got offensive. I asked an honest question and you probably should have just ignored it and hoped no-one noticed instead of giving such a pants answer!
HA!
It is very simple: Farsight stole the image without permission from this website:
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...TwistedCube.jpg
The image has no connection with his "theories" and he has no clue how it was generated .
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 16 2007, 12:06 PM)
I'm honest. You're not. You puzzle about visualizing spatial deformation, I show you, and you don't even read what I said. Instead you find reason to scoff. Now listen up: you've got a deep-seated psychological problem. You're turning into a troll. Don't talk to me again.
Actually you are lying again.
You stole the image without permission from this website:
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...TwistedCube.jpg
The image has no connection with your "theories" and you have no clue how it was generated .
Actually you are lying again.
You stole the image without permission from this website:
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...TwistedCube.jpg
The image has no connection with your "theories" and you have no clue how it was generated .
Reproduced on the internet, not stole. He's still got it. He lives near me, and I'll be talking to him about image usage. Now get lost troll.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 16 2007, 03:33 PM)
Reproduced on the internet, not stole. He's still got it. He lives near me, and I'll be talking to him about image usage. Now get lost troll.
You are still lying, you still have no clue how it is generated and the picture still has no connection to your BS "theories". I don't think he'll be thrilled to know that his images are using by a "scientist" who has your feedback.
You are still lying, you still have no clue how it is generated and the picture still has no connection to your BS "theories". I don't think he'll be thrilled to know that his images are using by a "scientist" who has your feedback.
Of course I do, and he gives things away. See:
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...DResources.html
"This is where my plugins live. They are supplied “as-is” and in good faith. Use them at your own risk. I can accept no responsibility for any damage incurred directly or indirectly as a result of using these plugins. Do check any downloaded code for viruses etc. before installing it"
Now let me repeat: get lost troll.
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...DResources.html
"This is where my plugins live. They are supplied “as-is” and in good faith. Use them at your own risk. I can accept no responsibility for any damage incurred directly or indirectly as a result of using these plugins. Do check any downloaded code for viruses etc. before installing it"
Now let me repeat: get lost troll.
QUOTE (Farsight+Aug 16 2007, 03:59 PM)
Of course I do, and he gives things away. See:
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...DResources.html
"This is where my plugins live. They are supplied “as-is” and in good faith. Use them at your own risk. I can accept no responsibility for any damage incurred directly or indirectly as a result of using these plugins. Do check any downloaded code for viruses etc. before installing it"
So you continue to lie. You couldn't generate the image if your life depended on it (because you don't know how to use the applet, you simply swipped the final image). You still don't know how irrelevant it is to your phony theories..
http://website.lineone.net/~steve_hill/Gra...DResources.html
"This is where my plugins live. They are supplied “as-is” and in good faith. Use them at your own risk. I can accept no responsibility for any damage incurred directly or indirectly as a result of using these plugins. Do check any downloaded code for viruses etc. before installing it"
So you continue to lie. You couldn't generate the image if your life depended on it (because you don't know how to use the applet, you simply swipped the final image). You still don't know how irrelevant it is to your phony theories..
QUOTE (Trippy+Aug 15 2007, 12:10 AM)
I'd like it if someone could show me why my objection was irrelevant though.
I know that QED predicts that photons can travel above and below c, but always travel at an average of c - but I always thought that was a result of the HUP.
I'd still like to know how one expects to change c without changing ε_0, or call gravity a gradient in ε_0 (and everything that seems to imply).
On QED and a discussion of the photon speed
I do not know your reference for photon speed. My main point is that actual photon speed is irrelevant if the information cannot travel faster than c. So I strongly suspect that your reference has some qualifiers or context that isn't being conveyed.
QED is typically written in natural units in which h = 2π and c = 1. Therefore if v != 1 then the speed is faster or slower than c. But QED is just one of the most simple cases of Quantum Field Theory, and QFT has a theorem (proven naturally from the postulates of QFT) that all disturbances of QFT travel at the speed 1. Even if the particles themselves are defined to exist at v>1.
http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/...r/tachyons.html
At the QED-level there are not photons per-se but a photon quantum field described by QED. Physically, you can't measure a photon speed because interacting with a photon to record it's position destroys the photon, so no second measurement is possible. Mathematically, you can play games where some of the wave crests travel faster than the speed of light. So the context of your quote is needed.
On c, ε_0 and μ_0
Maxwell's (vacuum) equations in SI Units were formulated in the language of flat-space-time:
F = q (E + v×B)
F is measured in Newtons
q is measured in Coulombs
E is measured in Newtons per Coulomb
v is measured in meters per second
B is measured in Newton-seconds per Coulomb per meter
∇·B = 0
∇×E = -∂B/∂t
∇·J = -∂ρ/∂t
ρ is measured in Coulombs per cubic meter
J is measured in Amperes per square meter or Coulombs per second per meter²
∇·D = ρ
D is measured in Coulomb-meters per cubic meter or Coulombs per meter²
∇×H = J + ∂D/∂t
H is measured in Coulombs per second per meter
D = ε_0 E (in vacuum)
Therefore ε_0 must have units of Coulombs² per Newton per meter²
B = μ_0 H (in vacuum)
Therefore μ_0 must have units of Newton times seconds² per Coulomb²
And therefore 1/(ε_0 μ_0) must have units like meters² per second²
The Coulombs drop out. But what is a Coulomb? The Coulomb was a amount of electric charge chosen such that the force between two charges of one Coulomb each, separated by 1 meters is given exactly by the SI version of Coulomb's Law:
F = q_1 q_2 / 4 π ε_0 r² = 1 Coulomb²/4 π ε_0 meter² = 1 Coulomb² c² μ_0/4 π meter² = (299792458)² 10^-7 Newtons = 8987551787.3681764 Newtons (exact in SI)
So the definition of a Coulomb, and ε_0 and μ_0 are just choices made by the designers of the SI units. They are linked choices, but they are not forced by the physics.
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2007/reviews/consrpp.pdf
For comparison, QED typically works in natural units in which h = 2π and c = 1 and the unit of charge is the charge on the positron, e, and the coupling constant is α = e²/2hc which is the same number no matter what units you measure e, h and c in. Because all the electromagnetic reactions depending on c also depend on e² and α, electromagnetic experiments cannot distinguish changes in one versus the other. Many searched for a changing speed of light have been really searches for a changing value of α, since a conspiracy of e and h would hide a change in c. But a change in α can be measured but cannot be unambiguously interpreted as a change in c.
In SR, time dilation goes hand-in-hand with length contraction so that two observers agree on the speed of light and the magnitude of the relative speed between themselves.
In GR, this is no longer so, so that two observers, when not close to each other, may disagree about a speed of light measurement made with the others rulers and clocks. So this is not saying the speed of light changes, but something about clocks and rulers. In GR, gravity is a gradient of rulers and clocks (curved space time) so that the assumptions of absolute space and time made by Maxwell's equations are no longer valid. Thus a change in (non-local) measured c doesn't even indicate an actual change in c, and therefore says nothing about α, h, e, ε_0 or μ_0 or the definition of a Coulomb.
But in GR, when the observers are close to each other, everything gets nice again. Therefore the apparent change in c must be regarded as akin to an illusion -- a paradox of trying to think locally about non-local measurements.
At the QED-level there are not photons per-se but a photon quantum field described by QED. Physically, you can't measure a photon speed because interacting with a photon to record it's position destroys the photon, so no second measurement is possible. Mathematically, you can play games where some of the wave crests travel faster than the speed of light. So the context of your quote is needed.
On c, ε_0 and μ_0
Maxwell's (vacuum) equations in SI Units were formulated in the language of flat-space-time:
F = q (E + v×B)
F is measured in Newtons
q is measured in Coulombs
E is measured in Newtons per Coulomb
v is measured in meters per second
B is measured in Newton-seconds per Coulomb per meter
∇·B = 0
∇×E = -∂B/∂t
∇·J = -∂ρ/∂t
ρ is measured in Coulombs per cubic meter
J is measured in Amperes per square meter or Coulombs per second per meter²
∇·D = ρ
D is measured in Coulomb-meters per cubic meter or Coulombs per meter²
∇×H = J + ∂D/∂t
H is measured in Coulombs per second per meter
D = ε_0 E (in vacuum)
Therefore ε_0 must have units of Coulombs² per Newton per meter²
B = μ_0 H (in vacuum)
Therefore μ_0 must have units of Newton times seconds² per Coulomb²
And therefore 1/(ε_0 μ_0) must have units like meters² per second²
The Coulombs drop out. But what is a Coulomb? The Coulomb was a amount of electric charge chosen such that the force between two charges of one Coulomb each, separated by 1 meters is given exactly by the SI version of Coulomb's Law:
F = q_1 q_2 / 4 π ε_0 r² = 1 Coulomb²/4 π ε_0 meter² = 1 Coulomb² c² μ_0/4 π meter² = (299792458)² 10^-7 Newtons = 8987551787.3681764 Newtons (exact in SI)
So the definition of a Coulomb, and ε_0 and μ_0 are just choices made by the designers of the SI units. They are linked choices, but they are not forced by the physics.
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2007/reviews/consrpp.pdf
For comparison, QED typically works in natural units in which h = 2π and c = 1 and the unit of charge is the charge on the positron, e, and the coupling constant is α = e²/2hc which is the same number no matter what units you measure e, h and c in. Because all the electromagnetic reactions depending on c also depend on e² and α, electromagnetic experiments cannot distinguish changes in one versus the other. Many searched for a changing speed of light have been really searches for a changing value of α, since a conspiracy of e and h would hide a change in c. But a change in α can be measured but cannot be unambiguously interpreted as a change in c.
In SR, time dilation goes hand-in-hand with length contraction so that two observers agree on the speed of light and the magnitude of the relative speed between themselves.
In GR, this is no longer so, so that two observers, when not close to each other, may disagree about a speed of light measurement made with the others rulers and clocks. So this is not saying the speed of light changes, but something about clocks and rulers. In GR, gravity is a gradient of rulers and clocks (curved space time) so that the assumptions of absolute space and time made by Maxwell's equations are no longer valid. Thus a change in (non-local) measured c doesn't even indicate an actual change in c, and therefore says nothing about α, h, e, ε_0 or μ_0 or the definition of a Coulomb.
But in GR, when the observers are close to each other, everything gets nice again. Therefore the apparent change in c must be regarded as akin to an illusion -- a paradox of trying to think locally about non-local measurements.
RPenner: Something else occured to me this afternoon while I was pottering around in my car - if (at least at the quantum scale anyway) the electromagnetic force is mediated by virtual photons, then why should changing c be expected to have no effect on how electric fields behave?
We don't have an experimental method to change c. In real dielectrics the dielectric constant, n, is a function of the frequency of the light, so that the measured values of ε(f=0) and μ(f=0) (because direct measurement of these tend to happen at a f much smaller than of light) might not be in the relation predicted by v(f) = c/n(f) = 1/sqrt(ε(f) μ(f)). So the dielectric model of a change in c is not very good.
In contrast there is no evidence that gravitational lensing produces evidence of dispersion, so that any change is uniform for all frequencies. The description of GR as curved space time does predict gravitational lensing with this non-dispersive behavior. This description of GR has no effect on the local values of c or on the local action of electromagnetism.
I know that QED predicts that photons can travel above and below c, but always travel at an average of c - but I always thought that was a result of the HUP.
I'd still like to know how one expects to change c without changing ε_0, or call gravity a gradient in ε_0 (and everything that seems to imply).
On QED and a discussion of the photon speed
I do not know your reference for photon speed. My main point is that actual photon speed is irrelevant if the information cannot travel faster than c. So I strongly suspect that your reference has some qualifiers or context that isn't being conveyed.
QED is typically written in natural units in which h = 2π and c = 1. Therefore if v != 1 then the speed is faster or slower than c. But QED is just one of the most simple cases of Quantum Field Theory, and QFT has a theorem (proven naturally from the postulates of QFT) that all disturbances of QFT travel at the speed 1. Even if the particles themselves are defined to exist at v>1.
http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/...r/tachyons.html
QUOTE
In other words, localized disturbances [in a quantum field of hypothetically defined QFT tachyons] do not spread with speed faster than the speed of light! This seems to go against our notion that tachyons move faster than the speed of light, but it's a mathematical fact, known as "unit propagation velocity".
At the QED-level there are not photons per-se but a photon quantum field described by QED. Physically, you can't measure a photon speed because interacting with a photon to record it's position destroys the photon, so no second measurement is possible. Mathematically, you can play games where some of the wave crests travel faster than the speed of light. So the context of your quote is needed.
On c, ε_0 and μ_0
Maxwell's (vacuum) equations in SI Units were formulated in the language of flat-space-time:
F = q (E + v×B)
F is measured in Newtons
q is measured in Coulombs
E is measured in Newtons per Coulomb
v is measured in meters per second
B is measured in Newton-seconds per Coulomb per meter
∇·B = 0
∇×E = -∂B/∂t
∇·J = -∂ρ/∂t
ρ is measured in Coulombs per cubic meter
J is measured in Amperes per square meter or Coulombs per second per meter²
∇·D = ρ
D is measured in Coulomb-meters per cubic meter or Coulombs per meter²
∇×H = J + ∂D/∂t
H is measured in Coulombs per second per meter
D = ε_0 E (in vacuum)
Therefore ε_0 must have units of Coulombs² per Newton per meter²
B = μ_0 H (in vacuum)
Therefore μ_0 must have units of Newton times seconds² per Coulomb²
And therefore 1/(ε_0 μ_0) must have units like meters² per second²
The Coulombs drop out. But what is a Coulomb? The Coulomb was a amount of electric charge chosen such that the force between two charges of one Coulomb each, separated by 1 meters is given exactly by the SI version of Coulomb's Law:
F = q_1 q_2 / 4 π ε_0 r² = 1 Coulomb²/4 π ε_0 meter² = 1 Coulomb² c² μ_0/4 π meter² = (299792458)² 10^-7 Newtons = 8987551787.3681764 Newtons (exact in SI)
So the definition of a Coulomb, and ε_0 and μ_0 are just choices made by the designers of the SI units. They are linked choices, but they are not forced by the physics.
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2007/reviews/consrpp.pdf
For comparison, QED typically works in natural units in which h = 2π and c = 1 and the unit of charge is the charge on the positron, e, and the coupling constant is α = e²/2hc which is the same number no matter what units you measure e, h and c in. Because all the electromagnetic reactions depending on c also depend on e² and α, electromagnetic experiments cannot distinguish changes in one versus the other. Many searched for a changing speed of light have been really searches for a changing value of α, since a conspiracy of e and h would hide a change in c. But a change in α can be measured but cannot be unambiguously interpreted as a change in c.
In SR, time dilation goes hand-in-hand with length contraction so that two observers agree on the speed of light and the magnitude of the relative speed between themselves.
In GR, this is no longer so, so that two observers, when not close to each other, may disagree about a speed of light measurement made with the others rulers and clocks. So this is not saying the speed of light changes, but something about clocks and rulers. In GR, gravity is a gradient of rulers and clocks (curved space time) so that the assumptions of absolute space and time made by Maxwell's equations are no longer valid. Thus a change in (non-local) measured c doesn't even indicate an actual change in c, and therefore says nothing about α, h, e, ε_0 or μ_0 or the definition of a Coulomb.
But in GR, when the observers are close to each other, everything gets nice again. Therefore the apparent change in c must be regarded as akin to an illusion -- a paradox of trying to think locally about non-local measurements.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In other words, localized disturbances [in a quantum field of hypothetically defined QFT tachyons] do not spread with speed faster than the speed of light! This seems to go against our notion that tachyons move faster than the speed of light, but it's a mathematical fact, known as "unit propagation velocity". |
At the QED-level there are not photons per-se but a photon quantum field described by QED. Physically, you can't measure a photon speed because interacting with a photon to record it's position destroys the photon, so no second measurement is possible. Mathematically, you can play games where some of the wave crests travel faster than the speed of light. So the context of your quote is needed.
On c, ε_0 and μ_0
Maxwell's (vacuum) equations in SI Units were formulated in the language of flat-space-time:
F = q (E + v×B)
F is measured in Newtons
q is measured in Coulombs
E is measured in Newtons per Coulomb
v is measured in meters per second
B is measured in Newton-seconds per Coulomb per meter
∇·B = 0
∇×E = -∂B/∂t
∇·J = -∂ρ/∂t
ρ is measured in Coulombs per cubic meter
J is measured in Amperes per square meter or Coulombs per second per meter²
∇·D = ρ
D is measured in Coulomb-meters per cubic meter or Coulombs per meter²
∇×H = J + ∂D/∂t
H is measured in Coulombs per second per meter
D = ε_0 E (in vacuum)
Therefore ε_0 must have units of Coulombs² per Newton per meter²
B = μ_0 H (in vacuum)
Therefore μ_0 must have units of Newton times seconds² per Coulomb²
And therefore 1/(ε_0 μ_0) must have units like meters² per second²
The Coulombs drop out. But what is a Coulomb? The Coulomb was a amount of electric charge chosen such that the force between two charges of one Coulomb each, separated by 1 meters is given exactly by the SI version of Coulomb's Law:
F = q_1 q_2 / 4 π ε_0 r² = 1 Coulomb²/4 π ε_0 meter² = 1 Coulomb² c² μ_0/4 π meter² = (299792458)² 10^-7 Newtons = 8987551787.3681764 Newtons (exact in SI)
So the definition of a Coulomb, and ε_0 and μ_0 are just choices made by the designers of the SI units. They are linked choices, but they are not forced by the physics.
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2007/reviews/consrpp.pdf
For comparison, QED typically works in natural units in which h = 2π and c = 1 and the unit of charge is the charge on the positron, e, and the coupling constant is α = e²/2hc which is the same number no matter what units you measure e, h and c in. Because all the electromagnetic reactions depending on c also depend on e² and α, electromagnetic experiments cannot distinguish changes in one versus the other. Many searched for a changing speed of light have been really searches for a changing value of α, since a conspiracy of e and h would hide a change in c. But a change in α can be measured but cannot be unambiguously interpreted as a change in c.
In SR, time dilation goes hand-in-hand with length contraction so that two observers agree on the speed of light and the magnitude of the relative speed between themselves.
In GR, this is no longer so, so that two observers, when not close to each other, may disagree about a speed of light measurement made with the others rulers and clocks. So this is not saying the speed of light changes, but something about clocks and rulers. In GR, gravity is a gradient of rulers and clocks (curved space time) so that the assumptions of absolute space and time made by Maxwell's equations are no longer valid. Thus a change in (non-local) measured c doesn't even indicate an actual change in c, and therefore says nothing about α, h, e, ε_0 or μ_0 or the definition of a Coulomb.
But in GR, when the observers are close to each other, everything gets nice again. Therefore the apparent change in c must be regarded as akin to an illusion -- a paradox of trying to think locally about non-local measurements.
RPenner: Something else occured to me this afternoon while I was pottering around in my car - if (at least at the quantum scale anyway) the electromagnetic force is mediated by virtual photons, then why should changing c be expected to have no effect on how electric fields behave?
We don't have an experimental method to change c. In real dielectrics the dielectric constant, n, is a function of the frequency of the light, so that the measured values of ε(f=0) and μ(f=0) (because direct measurement of these tend to happen at a f much smaller than of light) might not be in the relation predicted by v(f) = c/n(f) = 1/sqrt(ε(f) μ(f)). So the dielectric model of a change in c is not very good.
In contrast there is no evidence that gravitational lensing produces evidence of dispersion, so that any change is uniform for all frequencies. The description of GR as curved space time does predict gravitational lensing with this non-dispersive behavior. This description of GR has no effect on the local values of c or on the local action of electromagnetism.
rpenner
the spacetime can be twisted by itself,generating the curved spacetime,through
distortions produced by a vaccum symmetry breakdown.for example,the operator
pt would be linked the fusioned of space and time in the primordial vacuum,doing
appear different energy densities( gradient of rulers and clocks).the breaks of the operator pt can generate a spectrum of energy linked to the changes of velocities.
could to imagine that positrons( that to the feynman-stuckelberg-travel backward
in time),it is,the time dilatation,that is the stretched spacetime( with differents
curvatures in the rates of the differents speeds) of the electron,when splitting
spacetime in two opposed orientations
the spacetime can be twisted by itself,generating the curved spacetime,through
distortions produced by a vaccum symmetry breakdown.for example,the operator
pt would be linked the fusioned of space and time in the primordial vacuum,doing
appear different energy densities( gradient of rulers and clocks).the breaks of the operator pt can generate a spectrum of energy linked to the changes of velocities.
could to imagine that positrons( that to the feynman-stuckelberg-travel backward
in time),it is,the time dilatation,that is the stretched spacetime( with differents
curvatures in the rates of the differents speeds) of the electron,when splitting
spacetime in two opposed orientations
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