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skepticgriggsy
The presumption of naturalism is that not only are natural causes and explanations efficient, they are also necessary, primary and sufficient: they are the sufficient reason, contrary to Leibniz [ See Leibniz's big blunder]. This neither begs the question nor sandbags theists but is the simple demand for evidence as Hume demands for miracles.
In effect, Leibniz makes a god of the gaps in that he posits God as the ultimate explanation when [ See the threads the ignostic-Ockham and cosmological issues.] He is no kind of explanation as though those natural causes lacked explaining power to answer, not only the how's but also the whey's. Why does evolution act as it does?
Interpretation of evidence counts. biggrin.gif
Cusa
QUOTE (skepticgriggsy+Feb 13 2009, 10:27 PM)
The presumption of naturalism is that not only are natural causes and explanations efficient, they are also necessary, primary and sufficient: they are the sufficient reason, contrary to Leibniz [ See Leibniz's big blunder]. This neither begs the question nor sandbags theists but is the simple demand for evidence as Hume demands for miracles.
In effect, Leibniz makes a god of the gaps in that he posits God as the ultimate explanation when [ See the threads the ignostic-Ockham and cosmological issues.] He is no kind of explanation as though those natural causes lacked explaining power to answer, not only the how's but also the whey's. Why does evolution act as it does?
Interpretation of evidence counts. biggrin.gif

I believe the universe was created to create life by evolution.

Mitch Raemsch
gmilam
QUOTE (Cusa+Feb 13 2009, 04:44 PM)
I believe the universe was created to create life by evolution.

Mitch Raemsch

Kind of hard to argue with that.

A friend of mine believes that the universe is some kid's science fair project that is now gathering dust on the top shelf of his closet. He lives in fear of the day the kid's mom throws his old junk out.

To make it worse, the kid only got a C on his project.

Kind of hard to argue with that one too.
Granouille
It looks that way, doesn't it? laugh.gif
MickDerry
QUOTE (Cusa+Feb 13 2009, 10:44 PM)
I believe the universe was created to create life by evolution.

Mitch Raemsch

I think it had little choice.
gmilam
QUOTE (MickDerry+Feb 13 2009, 06:26 PM)
I think it had little choice.

Now there's a question for the philosophical types!

Does the universe have free will? rolleyes.gif
Cusa
QUOTE (gmilam+Feb 14 2009, 01:38 AM)
Now there's a question for the philosophical types!

Does the universe have free will?  rolleyes.gif

According to the bible the spirit does.
Argyll
QUOTE (Cusa+Feb 14 2009, 02:51 AM)
According to the bible the spirit does.

According to science, the spirit doesn't exist. Get your bible crap out of this science forum
Cusa
The spirit cannot be measured. But it exists. Science comes from God.

Mitch Raemsch
Argyll
QUOTE (Cusa+)
The spirit cannot be measured.

Finally, a true statement out of your mouth.

QUOTE (Cusa+)
But it exists.

Prove it.

QUOTE (Cusa+)
Science comes from God.

If you want to think so, then fine, but science gets by just fine without God, yours or any other.
Cusa
QUOTE (Argyll+Feb 14 2009, 04:28 AM)
Prove it.

QUOTE (Cusa+)
Science comes from God.

If you want to think so, then fine, but science gets by just fine without God, yours or any other.

It doesn't matter what you think argyll.
Argyll
QUOTE (Cusa+Feb 14 2009, 04:30 AM)
If you want to think so, then fine, but science gets by just fine without God, yours or any other. [/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter what you think argyll.

True... but that wasn't my opinion, it was the simple truth.
Cusa
QUOTE (Argyll+Feb 14 2009, 04:35 AM)
It doesn't matter what you think argyll. [/QUOTE]
True... but that wasn't my opinion, it was the simple truth.

Are you sure?

Do you believe in absolute truth?
TracerTong
QUOTE (gmilam+Feb 14 2009, 01:38 AM)
Now there's a question for the philosophical types!

Does the universe have free will? rolleyes.gif

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/a...eism-irrational

Sure, the earth used to be a roll and now its a donut hole
MickDerry
QUOTE (gmilam+Feb 14 2009, 01:38 AM)
Now there's a question for the philosophical types!

Does the universe have free will? rolleyes.gif

I'd have to say that the universe, whatever it is, has to be bound by the laws that are being expressed within it. This has to be true for all possible universes. Avenues for research open all the time, and that's one of the pleasures of being alive.

Perhaps only the observer has the potential for free will. What exactly is the definition of free will anyway? Free to collapse the wave function?







buttershug
QUOTE (MickDerry+Feb 14 2009, 03:56 PM)
I'd have to say that the universe, whatever it is, has to be bound by the laws that are being expressed within it. This has to be true for all possible universes. Avenues for research open all the time, and that's one of the pleasures of being alive.

Perhaps only the observer has the potential for free will. What exactly is the definition of free will anyway? Free to collapse the wave function?

Not even that.
Free to observe the wave function collapse.

I havn't seen anything that says the observation causes the collapse.
MickDerry
QUOTE
Not even that.
Free to observe the wave function collapse.


Actually yes, I think that makes more sense.



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Not even that.
Free to observe the wave function collapse.


Actually yes, I think that makes more sense.



I havn't seen anything that says the observation causes the collapse.



I seem to be coming across articles from scientists that say it does.
AlexG
The 'collapse of the wave function' is an a priori assumption. It is invoked to explain the results of observation, but there is nothing in the equations of Quantum mechanics which leads to such a collapse, nor can anyone explain just what is collapsing.
SteveA2
QUOTE (gmilam+Feb 14 2009, 01:38 AM)
Now there's a question for the philosophical types!

Does the universe have free will? rolleyes.gif

The laws of nature shared in common between things for the universe as a whole have no (or little) choice in how they communicate with other things, just as the English language, though varied by accents or idioms does not spontaineously change as a whole by someone speaking differently.

By defining the universe as a persistant thing, it must maintain a static component in its definition over time and those rules by which things interact within the space of the universe define what the universe is as those physical rules are not defined to change, otherwise they would not be rules (but merely suggestions, recommendations or preferred modes of operation etc. laugh.gif)

So if you drop an apple and it rises, you're in a different universe than I am and could likely not communicate to me via. the internet, because it's a structure that relies upon gravity etc. to maintain it.

On the other hand, those static laws do not allow for the existance of time. A perfect law of gravity would not describe planets but perfectly repeated orbitals or truly classes of closed pathways - circles, ellipses and various greater complexity chaotic cycles.

Ironically, a law of gravity or any other finite set of precise physical laws do not allow for a planet to orbit the Sun, as they connect all such otherwise possible moments in time to predetermined objects over all time and they describe only a single state - whatever physical objects happened to be planted within that space and as all their interactions are predetermined and they'd only exist relative to this static rule as a single timeless object.

For example, the process of addition is timeless, because it never changes, but it also can't generate numbers because addition doesn't result in any specific number, nor does it only accept a single set of numbers as inputs. If it sees 2 and 5, then it simultaineously constructs 7 and the addition is not a transient thing and always shows (2,5,7) as a group. If you change the 7 to something else, such as 5 and retain the 2, then the group given by addition is the process of subtraction and we see this association as (2,3,5).

But the problem is that addition doesn't specify what's to be added and for that we need things that have termination points and are non-infinite, but are either their own beginnings or the specific results of some timeless process of some previous thing (that must have had its own beginning).

So there's really no way to logically determine whether or not objects have an inherent will unless such a possibility is something capable of logical description and it may be that there are not possible such descriptions in logic as perfect logic cannot see where it gets its information from.

On the other hand, an infinite space appears likely capable of supporting continual change over time via. rigid logical rules, but logic can't "do" infinity either and similarly we can't see infinitely far into space to determine what logic what may later derive from it, so some manner of indeterminism appears inevitably out of reach of logic and its closely tied to time, which is also interestingly tied to subjective personal perceptions and then it appears that as long as their is ever an uncertainty regarding the future, or probably as long as time exists, there is the possibility of individual will beyond logical description.

Also notice that if we had a spectrum of events from those that were perfectly deterministic to those that were never deterministic, those that there were never deterministic could not be isolated to existing relative to any specific static law of physics - a purely non-deterministic or random "thing" (if it could be described as such) would not even be localizable in space and could never be proven to either exist or not - you could never reliably repeat an experiment to prove anything regarding it - either its existance or non-existance, and the associated "random" results regarding it would continually leave it indeterminant and this leads to an interesting paradox regarding expectations - by defining what the expectations are as to the existance or non-existance of such a thing, alters what properties it would need to possess in order to remain random relative to those.

For example, if we flip a coin 20 times in a row and it lands heads up every time, is that more or less random than flipping the same coin 20 times in a row and having some other result? Notice that all combinations should ideally be just as likely as any other (of these 2^20~=1 million) combination(s), but if you vary your expectations, such as preferring a simple description of 20 heads instead of some larger description of the sequence, then it may appear that 20 heads in a row was not "random" despite it being just as likely (for a "fair" coin etc.) as head, tail, tail, head, head, head, head, tail, head, ...

Of course we prefer "simple" descriptions, but what's simple is also relative to the manners in which we understand and organize things, so what's random is dependent upon what we see as non-random structures and so randomness is defined inn many ways by non-randomness - the two are just flip sides of the same coin - did you expect a head or a tail - half the time, you'll prove the laws of physics are entirely predetermined and there is no such thing as non-deterministic events biggrin.gif Of course when we drop an apple it doesn't rise in the air half the time, but that's not the only possible (again there's a subjective measure as to what things are possible) result and if we dig down and look a bit closer we find that not all aspects of a falling apple are entirely predictable.
rpenner
QUOTE (SteveA2+Feb 14 2009, 08:27 PM)
For example, the process of addition is timeless, because it never changes, but it also can't generate numbers because addition doesn't result in any specific number, nor does it only accept a single set of numbers as inputs. If it sees 2 and 5, then it simultaineously constructs 7 and the addition is not a transient thing and always shows (2,5,7) as a group. If you change the 7 to something else, such as 5 and retain the 2, then the group given by addition is the process of subtraction and we see this association as (2,3,5).

Actually, the presentation of addition that SteveA2 is using is an addition operation which can be represented as a set of ordered triples.

But that is far from being the only possible presentation. The Peano axioms actually do generate new numbers, even in the absences of a set of integers.
Cusa
QUOTE (MickDerry+Feb 14 2009, 03:56 PM)
I'd have to say that the universe, whatever it is, has to be bound by the laws that are being expressed within it.

But where do those laws come from?

Mitch Raemsch
rpenner
QUOTE (Cusa+Feb 14 2009, 09:49 PM)
But where do those laws come from?

Since the laws we have puzzled out are without seam, signature or source, this question does not lead to empirically testable ideas and is therefore outside the realm of physics. Not an absolute statement, but one based on the evidence we do have in the universe we do live in.
SteveA2
QUOTE (rpenner+Feb 14 2009, 08:49 PM)
Actually, the presentation of addition that SteveA2 is using is an addition operation which can be represented as a set of ordered triples.

But that is far from being the only possible presentation. The Peano axioms actually do generate new numbers, even in the absences of a set of integers.


Maybe it counts in some detached universe, but those numbers do not have any specific objective symbolic representation in physical sciences.

It just defined an infinite string of ....1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1...

We have to create symbols or construct thoughts or contain distinct sets and draw a line through that specific grouping in order to terminate counting and Peano's axioms do not create 2 of something or 3 of something etc.

Peano's axioms don't let us actually stop at a number. We need a finite time or space or quantity etc. in order to stop counting. We've already been through this before.

For example, there is nothing in Peano's axioms that mentions the number 17. It simply constructs a start, an increment for a dimension, and a recursion but it cannot define the unique symbols for each recursion, hence it cannot stop counting. The logic to create the number 17 requires an ability to count to specifically 17 and then stop counting and do something else with that result, but the algorithm cannot say to stop at 17 because then it could only construct 17 and not 1 or 2 or 18 etc.

For example, if I ask if the number that Peano's axioms constructs is an odd or even number, you do not know or you select an arbitrary, unprovable position.

If you say that it doesn't construct one number but all (natural) numbers, then I can ask you to add those numbers together and give me the result. If it was truly a set of numbers, we could add them together as we can always numbers together, unless Peano's axiom gives numbers that cannot be added (now those would be some fancy numbers).

If you say that it does not generate specific numbers, then I'll ask you what number is not specific ... is 5 not a specific number?

If you say it generates an infinite set of numbers, I'll point out that because the largest numbers is equal to the size of the set (if we begin at one), then the largest number would have to be infinite by your definition and unless you can show me an infinite natural number, I'll have to disagree with you.

If you simply blow me off and say I don't know mathematics and am confused or I'm asking an illegal or undefined question, then I'll ask why don't mathematicians try to resolve these conflicts in their definitions and what makes them such taboo subjects?

etc.

I've been through this stuff many many times and the results stay the same - logic doesn't "do" time or counting etc. It can't look at your watch and it can't tell you what you'll want to compute next and a theory of planetary orbits doesn't tell you when you're going to go look outside and take samples of the positions, but it can reduce some of the information and predict, when given some information, what properties and correlations will be observed between these.

QUOTE (rpenner+)
Since the laws we have puzzled out are without seam, signature or source, this question does not lead to empirically testable ideas and is therefore outside the realm of physics. Not an absolute statement, but one based on the evidence we do have in the universe we do live in.


The seams, signatures and sources arise from the people that selected to pursue these interests. If they'd have done them differently the context in which these rules would have been placed would have been different, even if they were still constrained by logic to minimize the number of obvious paradoxes present.

There are laws of physics but they are not arbitrarily imposed they are simply necessities for things to exist (and no I can't prove that last statement).
Cusa
QUOTE (rpenner+Feb 14 2009, 09:59 PM)
Since the laws we have puzzled out are without seam, signature or source, this question does not lead to empirically testable ideas and is therefore outside the realm of physics. Not an absolute statement, but one based on the evidence we do have in the universe we do live in.

I think science leads back as Einstein said: I want to know how God created this universe. I want to know His thoughts. All the rest are just details.

Evolution came from an intelligent source.

Mitch Raemsch
MisterBelfry
>>> I believe the universe was created to create life by evolution. <<<

It is now common for otherwise sophisticated evolutionary thinkers to simultaneously claim that strictly naturalistic evolution (of one form or another) is a fact, and that anything else is ruled out a priori. Evolutionists say that evolution is a fact and that non-natural theories do not qualify as science and cannot even be evaluated. [4]

Such claims can be deceptive because they appear to be the conclusion of a scientific evaluation. Ironically, they are not. They are the necessary consequence of theological assumptions. Now we can understand what the claim “evolution is a fact” actually means. Evolutionists explain that evolution is a fact every bit as much as gravity. They arrive at this conclusion by using non-scientific assumptions to rule out the alternatives, in spite of contrary scientific evidence. The claim that evolution is a fact is not arrived at via an analysis of the scientific data; rather, it allows for the many problems in the data to be inconsequential.

4. Elliott Sober, Evidence and Evolution: The Logic Behind the Science, (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 2008).
-- http://www.darwinspredictions.com/


From: Magic Chicken (Avatar) 09/05/2002 13:14:34

Subject: re: big bang, perfect? post id: 37192

...
This is where the room for interpretation enters. In the gulf between model and understanding comes interpretation. Yes, I understand enough rules of maths and physics to manipulate the models for GR and for quantum systems. But how do I interpret what I am doing? That it is accurate and correct, I have no doubt. Measurements match predictions. But what does it mean?? Does the universe bifurcate every time a superposition of states collapses? Do superposed states really exist? Is the probabilistic interpretation of the wavefunction "true"? Yes, it is accurate (it makes accurate predictions) but is it "true"?

In the end, most scientists I know come to the realisation that what the are searching for is not the "truth", but the "model". You see, the really important realisation is that the model can work regardless of the truth. That takes some sinking in, but once you realise it, the "search for truth" becomes something you can do as a hobby, or in your spare time, if you're inclined. If your model works, and you're not fooled into demanding it describe the truth, then you're on the right path.


buttershug
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Feb 15 2009, 12:53 PM)
In the end, most scientists I know come to the realisation that what the are searching for is not the "truth", but the "model". You see, the really important realisation is that the model can work regardless of the truth. That takes some sinking in, but once you realise it, the "search for truth" becomes something you can do as a hobby, or in your spare time, if you're inclined. If your model works, and you're not fooled into demanding it describe the truth, then you're on the right path.

The Truth? You can't handle the Truth.

The truth is unknowable.

So keep religion out of science class and government.
And science will let papal crowds get salmonella poisoning.

(during a papal visit to Toronto 20 some years ago my brother was taking a food sciences course. The prof looked at the details of the food handling for one of the events and said there would be food poisoning because they weren't taking proper precautions. Sure enough there was an outbreak.)
TracerTong
QUOTE (skepticgriggsy+Feb 13 2009, 10:27 PM)
The presumption of naturalism is that not only are natural causes and explanations efficient, they are also necessary, primary and sufficient: they are the sufficient reason, contrary to Leibniz [ See Leibniz's big blunder]. This neither begs the question nor sandbags theists but is the simple demand for evidence as Hume demands for miracles.
In effect, Leibniz makes a god of the gaps in that he posits God as the ultimate explanation when [ See the threads the ignostic-Ockham and cosmological issues.] He is no kind of explanation as though those natural causes lacked explaining power to answer, not only the how's but also the whey's. Why does evolution act as it does?
Interpretation of evidence counts. biggrin.gif


Should there be a distinction between experimental (operational) science and historical science?
Since a naturalistic approach to science can only refer to materialistic explanations, how can naturalists use logic if logic is not a material part of the universe?
Cusa
Einstein believed in predeterminism. In this sense evolution is predetermined.

Mitch Raemsch
Capracus
QUOTE (Cusa+Feb 20 2009, 02:43 AM)
Einstein believed in  predeterminism. In this sense evolution is predetermined.

Mitch Raemsch

Einstein didn't believe in a predetermined universe, but one that operated in a deterministic fashion. Predeterminism implies complete knowledge of design and execution of all universal elements. Causal determinism, which Einstein subscribed to, implies that all events are caused by preceding events. While Einstein believed in determinism, he didn't believe that events at the quantum level could be precisely known due to the uncertainty principle.
AlexG
QUOTE (Capracus+Feb 21 2009, 08:57 AM)
While Einstein believed in determinism, he didn't believe that events at the quantum level could be precisely known due to the uncertainty principle.

No. Quantum indeterminancy is something which Einstein did NOT believe. Einstein believed in the 'hidden variable' approach. While he accepted there were things we could not know on the quantum level, it was not because they were fundamentally unknowable, but because we couldn't measure everything. There were physical properties on the quantum scale which were hidden, but Einstein believed they did exist.
Capracus
QUOTE (AlexG+Feb 21 2009, 07:22 PM)
No.  Quantum indeterminancy is something which Einstein did NOT believe.  Einstein believed in the 'hidden variable' approach.  While he accepted there were things we could not know on the quantum level, it was not because they were fundamentally unknowable, but because we couldn't measure everything.  There were physical properties on the quantum scale which were hidden, but Einstein believed they did exist.

Alex, I think you misunderstood my comment. I did not mean to imply that Einstein was a proponent of indeterminism. As I stated before, Einstein believed in causal determinism, but he also conceded, as stated in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, that measurement at the quantum level was made imprecise as a consequence of measurement. Unlike Bohr and Heisenberg, Einstein did not take this condition to imply innate indeterminacy.
skepticgriggsy
[B] Humes's argument against miracles is a corollary of this presumption. One must present evidence that an Amazing Randi would affirm was evidence of any miracle. Again this doesn't dismiss miracles a prioi so as to beg the question. Now , however, as there can be no confirmation of any miralcles of the Tanakh and the Testament, and in line with known inductive evidence, they probably didn't occur!
As skeptics ever find mundane explanations for alleged miracles, one can coclude that there are none. Yet, evidence could overcome this presumption.So , the skeptical provisional answer is that there are no miracles.
Aquinas himself notes the importance of the presumption of naturalism with his five failed arguments. And the term is indeed arguments as proof is for mathematics .
Folks, note how when tests disconfirm some alleged paranormality, paranormalists ever use cop-outs, like the testers influenced the failed tests. I objurgate all superstitions of the supernatural and the paranormal and any other weird notions, even though a schizotypal, and so never would allege that aliens abduct me.
This presumption of naturalism is indeed important as it requires theists to present evidence rather than the begged question of faith [ See the presumption of rationalism.] So, let us continue this thread, naturalism.
buttershug
QUOTE (TracerTong+Feb 20 2009, 02:20 AM)

Should there be a distinction between experimental (operational) science and historical science?
Since a naturalistic approach to science can only refer to materialistic explanations, how can naturalists use logic if logic is not a material part of the universe?

Historical science is for the most part a history of experiments.

Would you argue that a chef only uses physical ingredients, so how can he follow a recipe which is not physical?
I don't think so but that is a parallel to saying materialists can't use logic.

what the materialists don't do is use "gut feeling", "old wive's tales", and "campfire stories" instead of experiments.
They use them to set up experiments but don't rely on them instead of confirmation.
Nowtime
QUOTE (skepticgriggsy+Feb 13 2009, 10:27 PM)
The presumption of naturalism is that not only are natural causes and explanations efficient, they are also necessary, primary and sufficient: they are the sufficient reason, contrary to Leibniz [ See Leibniz's big blunder]. This neither begs the question nor sandbags theists but is the simple demand for evidence as Hume demands for miracles.
In effect, Leibniz makes a god of the gaps in that he posits God as the ultimate explanation when [ See the threads the ignostic-Ockham and cosmological issues.] He is no kind of explanation as though those natural causes lacked explaining power to answer, not only the how's but also the whey's. Why does evolution act as it does?
Interpretation of evidence counts. biggrin.gif

What an extraordinary question on a science board, and how beautifully the problem is arranged

Posed in scientific terms, the presumption of rationality succeding, is compared against a suggestion of other forces which appear opposed. The post leaves this question open, although natural law is shown to be necessary (and sufficient).

Civilization is a questionable objective.

Sorry.

There were other responses historically.

We may be on the wrong tack altogether. But the question, "Why does evolution act as it does?"."Seem destructive?"

Man is an animal.

Would there have been another evolution without man? Cusa ?

What is the driving force of life?

There was a time when man lived with nature and tried to please its spirits in order to improve crops etc. We now know how ridiculous that idea is.

Don't we?

Wasn't this a different time for respect and a feeling of the sacredness of life? A more natural lifestyle?

In normal evolution, animals live by killing. Is it possible to live a sensitive life in this evolutionary style of life?

If life exists in trees, insects, amoeba and viruses and we kill it every day, can we say we live in a sensitive relationship with nature?

The presumption of naturalism is that not only are natural causes and explanations efficient, they are also necessary, primary and sufficient.

What is the balance for man?







skepticgriggsy
[B][FONT=Geneva][SIZE=14][COLOR=purple] I now rephrase the original: natural causes and effects are not only efficient and necessary, but also primary and sufficient. biggrin.gif
Some challenge Hume's corollary about miracles that it begs the question a priori- in advance, but nay, because he is noting that we have "clouds of witnesses 'for natural causation- probability- whilst so far we have no evidence of people walking on water, for instance.The probability presumes the former. The burden of argument therefore falls on theists to present evidence to overcome this presumption and those of rationalism and skepticisim [ Please see those other two presumptions.].
So far when theists try to present evidence, begged questions taint any evidence [ See the new thread arguments about God on those begged questions, please.] rolleyes.gif
Aquinas recognizes the presumption, failing to overcome it with his five arguments.Folks, please do not use the mathematical term proof outside mathematics!
I heartily thank all who respond to my threads and posts
I wish that I could put my prior ones under griggs1947 and skeptic griggsy and this one under just skeptic griggsy.
Goodwill and blessings to all! ph34r.gif
sporacle
Thanks, SG

Always hypotheses and challenges. A few personal hypotheses on naturalism:

All along people thought they had the natural nailed down, and said the rest must be supernatural. Obviously supernatural events are gradually being explained as natural, but the debate is persistent.

A fundamental assumption of science (at least commonly shared) is that reality is a unified system and somehow all the parts fit together. (If it were not, we’re wasting our time.) Everything, including the sun, dinosaurs, DNA, Abraham, mathematical models (like wave functions), brain biochemistry, heavy metal music, and every piece of BS ever generated must be somehow interrelated. Everything is natural reality.

In exploring systems we have to use arbitrary smaller system boundaries in order to assess the details and define relationships. When we try to explore the big picture, we can have trouble due to sticking with individual system boundaries and the terms and ideas in each system. A typical example is comparison of old (and very old) models and new models. A common debate is over which individual system is primary in the big picture. They all are interrelated and none is primary.

Also we get tangled up about pattern/detail. Patterns of events are predictable; individual events are random.

Have to add one more to chew on. The universe is eternal, is infinitely old (just looks like a big bang) and in an infinitely long time (rest of the evolutionary sequence) it recycles. Would take a long time to verify.

spo
Grumpy
sporacle

QUOTE
The universe is eternal, is infinitely old (just looks like a big bang)


One basic scientific maxim is that reality is as it appears to be, so if all of our evidence indicates the Big Bang happened, why should we think differently???

Grumpy cool.gif
sporacle
QUOTE (Grumpy+Apr 30 2009, 03:35 PM)
sporacle

One basic scientific maxim is that reality is as it appears to be, so if all of our evidence indicates the Big Bang happened, why should we think differently???

Grumpy cool.gif

Thanks, Grumpy

That is a question most people never pay attention to without realizing they are actually answering it. Crucial question; congrats for stating it, and the details are important.

Why think differently? Mainly because throughout the long history of science, most serious thinkers said repeatedly, "If all the evidence indicates XXXXX happened, why should we think differently?

All we have is the way reality appears to us. But what we "see" of reality are metaphors in a biological imaging system now aided by data from our transducers. What we now "see" of reality is vastly different than the way reality appeared to be to people 300 years ago.

The red shift is a single observation repeated umpteen times over. CMB in itself does not demonstrate how it was generated. These and the distribution of light elements do not falsify all other explanations of the data.

Gathering data and asking questions usually beats maintaining faith in models. One of my favorites is the 800K light year long straight line configuration in the Chandra images of Pictoris A http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/00_releas..._060600pic.html. A straight line that long at the speed of light?

best wishes
spo
AlexG
QUOTE
These and the distribution of light elements do not falsify all other explanations of the data.


Do the other explanations account for the distribution of light elements or the CMB? If not, they are not explanations, are they?
sporacle
QUOTE (AlexG+May 1 2009, 12:36 AM)

Do the other explanations account for the distribution of light elements or the CMB? If not, they are not explanations, are they?

Right. Not yet, but exploration of the details and other explanations takes a while. The Big Bang Theory is still falsifiable.
skepticgriggsy
To be sure this presumption relies on the presumption of empiricism, knowledge through the five senses, not by faith or the paranormal.
We modern rationalists, as opposed to the Contintntal Rationalists, embrace empiricism.
Notice the cop-outs of theists when prayer fails or of paranormalists when one subjects their claims to tests.
Prayer fails, because one relies on the fallacy of post hoc and coincidence to affirm it. When a prayed- for person dies, people aver that it was God's will; nay, only natural causation was at work. Or when prayer fails, they aver that His ways are above ours, and so, He answered the prayer in His way.
And paranormalists bleat that the tester inhibited the paranormal from working!
So, neither theist nor paranormalist can overcome this presumption in these matters .Faith cannot confirm " The Transcendent Temptation" as Paul Kurtz refers to the supernatural and the paranormal. That book illuminates those weird matters! smile.gif
skepticgriggsy


The presumption of rationalism is that we should adhere to using reason, avoiding faith, the we just say so of credulity.
Reason moves mountains of ignorance whilst faith rests on the argument from ignorance. Reason can bring people together, whilst faith divides us.
Science, as Sydney Hook observes, is acquired knowledge, whilst faith begs the question of being knowledge. Faith begs the question of its subject.
When queried about failed prayers, the religious answer that His ways aren't ours- a cop-out. And paranormalists answer that their superstitions fail tests, because of the inhibitory influence of the tester.
And the presumption holds that we need to have open-minds, but not credulous ones in examining claims. We have to use the other presumptions in doing so.; some claims, like creationism and ESP others, like evolution and the Big Bang, tentatively true and still others, like the origin of language and the Multiverse, remain to be tested further.
skepticgriggsy
This presumption relies on the presumption of empiricism that all knowledge comes from what we can directly or directly perceive rather than by unconfirmed intuitions, revelations and guesses without facts.
The presumption of skepticism is that when we consider claims, we must do so with open but not credulous minds. We have confirmed provisionally evolution and plate-tectonics, disconfirmed provisionally ESP and creationism and left open the claims for the origins of language and whether Pres. Obama is a near -great or great president.
I put God under the second whilst the great skeptic Martin Gardner finds himself a fideistic deist. Thus, skeptics can be wrong!
And the presumption of rationalism urges us to ever use reason and empiricism to have more abundant lives.
Rationalism removes mountains of ignorance whilst faith embraces the argument from ignorance.
Faith, the we just say so of credulity, begs the question of its subject [Articulett]. As Sydney Hook observes, science is acquired knowledge whilst faith begs the question of being knowledge.
Onward rationalist inquirers!
I'll have a total of 220 posts today under the monikers of griggs1947 [ 163, skeptic-17, and 80 under skepticgriggsy. I wish that they could be combined under skeptic griggsy.
Google that to find my posts and threads world wide; Google also rationalist griggsy and naturalist griggsy. Note my agenda is to help spread nat uralism,ratiionalism.
"Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning."

buttershug
I'm becoming more convinced that basic probability should be started to be taught on Sesame Street.

It seems a lot of faith believers believe because of co-incidences that they think are too improbable. But if they understood some probability then they would know that's not the case.
skepticgriggsy
buttershig, excellent point. Were people to follow our assumptions they could have that more abundant life that that long dead man from Galilea could never deliver!
So many prefer the presumption of faith, the just say so of credulity. Alvin Platinga and Van Till are developing presuppositionlesss theology and God as a given akin to external realiity and other minds: more begging that question. That theology means their presupposition that there is that divine potter and their anthology of fables tell the Truth.
Whilst some of us with more education are throwing off Yeshua's yoke, others merely use that education to enshrine their superstitions of the supernatural and the paranmormal: what Paul Kurtz calls 'The Transcendent Temptation."
I
I'm with PZ Myers: sock it to them!
I'm no Mong: I refer to my threads to encourage further inquiry, not for s elf-promotion.
skepticgriggsy


Dr.Rem B. Edwards maintains in his book on philosophy that we naturalists beg the question that naturalism entails all Existence; hardly, as noted about Haught, it is theists who beg the question. Can they overcome the presumption? What is the empirical basis that they have for overcoming it? It seems to men then, that they are just using faith rather than the presumption of reason. How do they think that they have evidence that overcomes the presumption also of skepticism?
These presumptions make for that more abundant life.

skepticgriggsy
I maintain that these presumptions of empiricism, humanism, naturalism, rationalism and skepticism lead to that more abundant life than what that certain ever dead magician ever could help anyone to achieve.
We naturalists just do what others only partially do- use reason with facts in all areas of inquiry rather than any dogmas of faith. See the thread rationalism on why faith ever fails. T'is the fallacy of equivocation to make the faith of the faithful equivalent of the trust of the naturalist in science.
How might one gainsay my contentions?
[B] Theists have to assume the presumption in order to defeat it!
Please go to pages four for for atheists only and six for the mind of a god to further see why no God.
newguy
skepticgriggsy: Although I've been very busy of late, I have noticed your recent round of foamings at the mouth. I'll only question one part of your ramblings...

QUOTE (skepticgriggsy+)
I maintain that these presumptions of empiricism, humanism, naturalism, rationalism and skepticism lead to that more abundant life than what that certain ever dead magician ever could help anyone to achieve.


QUOTE (skepticgriggsy's signature+)
Reason saves, not what's his name- that dead Galilean.


I trust that we both recognize that this "certain ever dead magician" and "dead Galilean" are the Biblical Jesus Christ (well, with your ignorant spins on Him, that is). With such being the case, might I ask you how you know that Jesus Christ ever actually walked this earth? Do you have proof of this or this just a matter of faith with you? Please explain. You've plainly stated that He is "ever dead"...He must have lived then...isn't this correct? Let's see your proof of this. If you haven't got any, then go foam at the mouth somewhere else. Thanks.
Granouille
QUOTE (Scientific American - February 1892+)
Professor R. L. Garner proposes to visit Africa, with such appliances for a residence among the gorillas as will enable him to become acquainted with their speech. He intends to occupy a large and strong iron cage, in which he can be safe from the attacks of the powerful animals, while he listens to their remarks and preserves them by the phonograph. Professor Garner thinks that he will be able to ascertain the views of leading gorillas with less difficulty and more precision than is possible in the case of some distinguished persons who speak with great facility on topics of vital interest.


Somehow this seems appropriate. smile.gif
Capracus
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 17 2009, 11:04 AM)
skepticgriggsy: Although I've been very busy of late, I have noticed your recent round of foamings at the mouth.  I'll only question one part of your ramblings...





I trust that we both recognize that this "certain ever dead magician" and "dead Galilean" are the Biblical Jesus Christ (well, with your ignorant spins on Him, that is).  With such being the case, might I ask you how you know that Jesus Christ ever actually walked this earth?
Good Question. The historical evidence that does tend to support the argument for the figure of Jesus is not that abundant. And what little evidence there is, at best, would only give credence to the notion that for a few years, a Jewish preacher may have roamed Palestine 2000 years ago, and may as a result of his preaching been executed.

The more important question is not what evidence supports the existence of this figure, but what evidence supports the supernatural attributes of this figure. Other than your own personal psychosis, where is the evidence for such claims?

skepticgriggsy
Capracus, indeed. And as as he was not a ice man as presented @ Christinsainty,Christianity and other religions, one wonders why take him as a good role model.
This thread is for discussing these presumptions and the criteria for knowledge only. It can include the argument from reason that I note @ arguments about Him.
new guy, old nonsense! Why don't you defend him there rather than bleat?
Please stay on the topic!
flyingbuttressman might add his comments.
We ontological naturalists just rely on Nature and reason as most do when not engaged with what Dr.Pau Kurtz calls " The Transcendent Temptation," the paranormal and the supernatural.
We fallibilists so recognize our limitations and the limits of knowledge.
RobDegraves
Well... if we are speaking of the historical Jesus, I do have a few things I can say from a strictly historical point of view if no one minds.

Keep in mind that my specialty is medieval history however...

I have met or read of very few historians that think that Jesus was not a historical figure, though there are a couple such as George Albert Wells. There is a great deal of evidence that he was real however, not just from his supporters but also from other sources. However, none of that evidence is from Jesus's own lifetime. Nothing about him was written down, as far as we know, until about 70 AD approximately and that at the earliest.

What is much more difficult to ascertain is what exactly did Jesus say and do.

There are three events which most modern scholars will agree have likely happened.

1. He was a Jew that was regarded as a teacher and a healer.

2. He was baptized by John The Baptist.

3. He was crucified by the Romans.

Other than that.. there is a lot of argument. Some parts are also much more unlikely and most historians tend to think that they are not genuine such as Jesus's birth for example.


Of course, the various supernatural events are usually seen as false, however even there you can see quite a lot of variation in how genuine or not the accounts seem to be.

There are a number of supernatural events that seem like the kind of thing that would have been believed and been part of the regular fare of a healer of that time period.. such as healing the blind for example. There are other events that seem far more tacked on ... such as the resurrection.

The resurrection of course is a sore point for believers since it is the most important supernatural event of Jesus's life and points to him being a God or Son of God. However, if you read more of the mythology of the various other countries at the time of Christ, you see that a lot of people had strikingly similar tales of resurrection... in fact many of the details are similar, such as being dead 3 days for example. It does seem that the resurrection story was likely tacked on after but of course, evidence for that is circumstantial.

I hope that contributed to the conversation.

newguy
QUOTE (skepticgriggsy+)
And as as he was not a ice man as presented @ Christinsainty,Christianity and other religions, one wonders why take him as a good role model.


skepticgriggsy: Take slow, deep breaths...Come on...You can do it. Better now? Good. "Ice man"? Learn how to spell properly and to form a coherent sentence before you take on God, would you? Anyhow, what's your beef with Jesus?

QUOTE (skepticgriggsy+)
This thread is for discussing these presumptions and the criteria for knowledge only.


Baloney. You've spammed your garbage all over the place and I'll ask whatever questions I want to ask. You can cower away from them, if you'd like. Perhaps you're experiencing some "theistic dread"? Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Now, back to my question:

QUOTE (newguy+)
I trust that we both recognize that this "certain ever dead magician" and "dead Galilean" are the Biblical Jesus Christ (well, with your ignorant spins on Him, that is). With such being the case, might I ask you how you know that Jesus Christ ever actually walked this earth? Do you have proof of this or this just a matter of faith with you? Please explain. You've plainly stated that He is "ever dead"...He must have lived then...isn't this correct? Let's see your proof of this. If you haven't got any, then go foam at the mouth somewhere else. Thanks.


Try not to stutter when you answer. Thanks.

QUOTE (skepticgriggsy+)
It can include the argument from reason that I note @ arguments about Him.
new guy, old nonsense! Why don't you defend him there rather than bleat?
Please stay on the topic!


Another comedian. YOU are telling ME to "stay on topic"? YOU are the one who mentioned the "certain dead magician" ON THIS THREAD. Now, how do you know that He ever lived to begin with? Answer the question, blowhard. Do you have proof or are you a "man of faith"? I await your answers.








TracerTong
QUOTE (gmilam+Feb 14 2009, 01:38 AM)
Now there's a question for the philosophical types!

Does the universe have free will?  rolleyes.gif

Here is one for Christians:
...nothing is nothing, therefore nothing can do nothing, and nothing can cause nothing...
if all of the natural needs a cause, that cause must be supernatural...
http://www.nwcreation.net/videos/Existence_of_God.html
(The Existence of God 60 minute seminar by Phil Fernandes recorded during the Seattle Creation Conference August 2007. about 17 min into it)

Genesis 1:1 KJV: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Also Romans 1:20 you can see
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 18 2009, 04:51 PM)

...nothing is nothing, therefore nothing can do nothing, and nothing can cause nothing...


Interesting then that in regards to any gods existing, the evidence = nothing.

QUOTE
if all of the natural needs a cause, that cause must be supernatural...


...if all of the supernatural needs a cause, that cause must be...superdoopernatural

tongue.gif
skepticgriggsy




RobDegraves, from where you mention the supernatural aspects on you are on oopic and most certainly add to this discusson! However, the otherpart is fine as a prelude but ,please add to the thread on Christainsanity,...., please, where iIll have more in a few monents.
There I'll blast Yeshua, new guy. That was a mere aside my comment about Him here.
Here the emphasis is on these presumptions, but as with Robert's observations about the miracles, one can certainly bring in other matters.
ON faith, Aquinas makes the distinction betwixt matters of faith such as the Trinity and those of reason such as his five failed arguments.So, in that aspect he recommends faith as defined here. The full use of faith in this aspect happens when theists recommend it when one express es doubt about Him. I report this to counter Dr. Dawkins's nemesis, Dr. Alister McGrath, who then falsely accuses Dawkins of an idiosyncratic use of faith as blind faith.
.Where do we naturalists err? Why do you place value on faith?
Martin Gardner, the great skeptic ,is not skeptical about God but is a fideistic-deist.
Goofus A Gallant
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 18 2009, 04:51 PM)
if all of the natural needs a cause, that cause must be supernatural...

Who said the natural needed a cause?
TracerTong
QUOTE (Goofus A Gallant+Oct 19 2009, 12:38 PM)
Who said the natural needed a cause?

Most people think a building requires a builder. This is going in circles. They even have new shows on discovery such as Ghost Lab (For Christians/Creationists: Remember that Jesus is Lord over all, I was warmly greeted in my inbox today by Amazon with this Amazon Recomendation:The Darwin Myth: The Life and Lies of Charles Darwin (Hardcover) http://www.amazon.com/dp/1596980974/ref=pe...401190_pe_ar_d1 )

Time of our lives (time is nonphysical) is running out, seize the day. I am reminded that Naturalistic Atheism is a religion for some but not all scientists.
For every action (such as evolution/change) its said there is an equal and opposite reaction (newton law of motion) With a biblical worldview we also believe that miracles can happen outside the physical, and in intelligence, information, and if laws then a law giver.
Goofus A Gallant
Wow, what does Ghost Lab have to do with any form of reality?

Time is non-physical? Are ya gonna tell me space is also non-physical? (You have heard of space-time, right?)
buttershug
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 19 2009, 02:53 PM)
Most people think a building requires a builder.

But we are not talking about a building.
Derek1148
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 19 2009, 02:53 PM)
Most people think a building requires a builder.

It doesn't?
TracerTong
QUOTE (buttershug+Oct 19 2009, 04:48 PM)
But we are not talking about a building.

I know; a house/building can be used as analogy for a cell. Everything natural in nature is dependant. -- This might/should be a law -- Is it?
Goofus A Gallant
Is there anything unnatural in nature? blink.gif
TracerTong
QUOTE (Goofus A Gallant+Oct 19 2009, 07:18 PM)
Is there anything unnatural in nature? blink.gif

Is the indoors outdoors, if thats what you mean. Law of noncontradiction.
rpenner
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 19 2009, 06:44 PM)
I know; a house/building can be used as analogy for a cell. Everything natural in nature is dependant. -- This might/should be a law -- Is it?

What does the Sun depend upon?
Goofus A Gallant
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 19 2009, 08:58 PM)
Is the indoors outdoors, if thats what you mean.  Law of noncontradiction.

Is this an example of speaking in tongues? Because it certainly doesn't make any sense in English.
buttershug
QUOTE (TracerTong+Oct 19 2009, 06:44 PM)
I know; a house/building can be used as analogy for a cell.  Everything natural in nature is dependant. -- This might/should be a law -- Is it?

Not in this case.
It can't be used as an analogy.
They are not analogous as to needing a "builder".
TracerTong
QUOTE (rpenner+Oct 19 2009, 09:09 PM)
What does the Sun depend upon?

Interesting question/topic. Maybe heat for one, stars are gas? (reference: http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/v...rs-made-of.html). blue stars,- their colors mean things. Goofus A Gallant,for natural, I was thinking of physical (space matter energy) there are non-natural/nonphysical entities such as time. I wasn't thinking/talking of normal/abnormal.
The data in the link is possibly obsolete/wrong. New planets have also been discovered in recent years.
rpenner
Are you saying the Sun depends upon what the Sun is? How very ... unilluminating. Thousands of stars in the sky and (as you would have it) all of them depend upon what they are. Just like the water in a pan on the stove (as you would have it) depends on it being water to act like water. Are you getting why you, in an attempt to stretch an aphorism into a general law, have stretched its meaning into uselessness? It is now devoid of content.
TracerTong
QUOTE (rpenner+Oct 19 2009, 10:40 PM)
Are you saying the Sun depends upon what the Sun is? How very ... unilluminating. Thousands of stars in the sky and (as you would have it) all of them depend upon what they are. Just like the water in a pan on the stove (as you would have it) depends on it being water to act like water. Are you getting why you, in an attempt to stretch an aphorism into a general law, have stretched its meaning into uselessness? It is now devoid of content.

I mistated, I meant stars depend on heat and I wanted to include useful info in my post to have more of a discussion and less of a debate, so I posted info on what stars are.-- and avoiid having one line posts and fallacy on authority. If stars got cold they probably couldn't be stars :-)
Thanks though.
Can someone find the names of all the planets? Maybe we could have an astrophysics topic thread if not already? ...
rpenner
Ah, but stars are known to start cold and they make the heat themselves. And white dwarfs are very hot, yet when they cool off to be black dwarfs, they are still stars. And thermonuclear explosions are hotter than the photosphere of any star, and yet they are not stars.

Heat is why stars shine, but heat does not make them stars. Nor does depriving them of heat make them fail to be stars, since they make the heat themselves until they die.
El_Machinae
Wouldn't you just say that stars depend upon the presence of hydrogen, and the natural forces of gravity & nuclear reactions?

It's a totally simple thing, really. Right?
buttershug
QUOTE (El_Machinae+Oct 20 2009, 01:06 PM)
Wouldn't you just say that stars depend upon the presence of hydrogen, and the natural forces of gravity & nuclear reactions?

It's a totally simple thing, really. Right?

The main point being what it does not require.
i.e. a designer.
skepticgriggsy
As today's Physorg newsletter notes, scientists are now studying how other forms of life could evolve on other planets but not using carbon or water and could be further from the Sun. So much for that sill anthropic argument whether there is the Metaverse [ I say yes.] or not.
Again this presumption holds true. How could this silly argument- a begged question- sugggest avenues of inquiry. I t i s just an empty idea - like God Himself- affirming ingnosticsm!
Naturalism counts against karma and reincarnation, folks.
When the axons and dendrites die, or memories die. So people thing that magical Sky Pappy saves the memories1
The paranormal violates, science and so the presumption holds.
[B] Yet the superstitious sure go for ' The Transcendent Temptation"- the superstitions the paranormal and the supernatural.See Paulll Kurtz's eponymous book.
We naturalists aren't scientistic: science cannot solve all problems , but mumbo-jumbo solves none! laugh.gif [I]
" Why [do ,sk.] People Believe Weird Things/' See Michael Shermer's eponymous book.
Religion is just an" urban legend."
skepticgriggsy


Hume's corollary to the presumption is that theists must give evidence support for there miracles rather than that of " well-trained eyes"-those predisposed to believe in miracles.When we skeptics investigates them, we find them just natural without any divine input. To find that input, begs the question as theists ever do. With better medical knowledge, the Vatican-approved experts are finding ever fewer miracles, and we skeptics find those sixty-seven already affirmed as just natural.
And why would God play favorites rather than cure all anyway? Why the insignificant pareidolias- those putative pictures of Yeshua or Mary when He doesn't inhibit massacres. Why the insignificance of Fatima and Medjugore?
Nu, mystery and His ways do not answer any of these questions as they reflect the argument from ignorance.
Why does God hate amputees as that site asks. Oh, some site bleats that He did grow a leg back for someone! ph34r.gif
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