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templeghost
Introduction

I have enjoyed reading about gravity and quantum mechanics since I was a teenager. I am an electronic engineer who has mostly worked on internet, webcam, multimedia, video and programming stuff. As such, I am more of a digital expert than a quantum physicist. I have read books such as Quantum Theory by David Bohm, Intro to Quantum Mechanics by Linus Pauling and E Bright Wilson, and various books on vibrational and electronic spectroscopy. I can follow the logic, and some of the simpler math, but I am no mathemagician, not even close.

I spent many years of my life working on a magnetic imaging system, and to be honest, I would appreciate some help with it. Many of the people here have the expert knowlege to really understand it. I am somewhat of a dreamer, it is part of who I am, but I do have a very technical side, and I was hoping the good people of this forum might take a little time to study my magnetic imaging work, and interpret the nature of it. Some of you are so accomplished, having great understanding of the implications of magnetic monopoles, string theory, electromagnetic interactions, particle physics and other advanced topics.

My work is freely available to anyone that would like to use it, and with that, I would like to present a precise and classical type analysis of a new method for imaging the magnetic permeability of the living body with a straightforward phase sensitive magnetic inductance approach.

Scrolling a Magnetic Vector Rod through Space

If we take a loop of copper wire and pass electrcity through it, we create a magnetic field which extends out of the copper loop. If we wind many turns of copper wire and apply an electrical current, we multiply the strength of our magnetic field. The magnetomotive force through a coil is defined as the number of turns of wire, multiplied by the current through the wire. The magnetomotive force is also equal to the magnetic flux through the coil, multiplied by the reluctance of the magnetic circuit:

user posted image

The reluctance of a material to the setting up of magnetic flux is determined by the above equation, where the length of the magnetic path is divided by the permeability multiplied by the cross-sectional area. If we take two identical coils, with a common origin, and pass electrcity through both of the coils, the resultant magnetic field is given by the vector sum. We arrange two coils of common origin on an x-shaped structure:

user posted image

By varying the current through the coils, we can point our magnetic flux to any angle within the 52 degrees of separation. For the sake of simplicity, if coil 2 is driven by 10 amps, and coil 1 has no current, the magnetic flux will point at +26. If the situation is reversed, the magnetic flux will point at -26. If both coils are driven with an equal current, the magnetic field will point straight ahead. Where each of the two coils are offset by 26 degrees, with simple vector addition we can calculate the angle which our magnetic flux will point for any applied currents:

user posted image

Please note, I took these arbitrary equations from my notes, in this case the r1 variable corresponds to the current through coil 2. The r2 variable corresponds to the current through coil 1. Being that we can point our magnetic fields, we manufacture multiple dual-coil transmitters and place them in an equidistant fashion around a scanning ring, the area we wish to study. In the case of this geometric arrangement, each electromagnet is helping to focus the magnetic flux:

user posted image

Clearly, this arrangement creates an octagon shaped scanning area in the center of our circle. If we think in terms of a raster scanning cathode ray tube, we can create video waveforms for each transmitter pair such that all of our magnetic fields are always pointing at the same spot, which is moved through space. We ensure that the magnetic vector sum from each transmitter pair is the same for every point. This has the effect of pulling a magnetic rod through space without changing the sum of the magnetic flux through our transmitters:

user posted image

If we are using 16 bit digital to analog convertors, we can readily choose our squared force as 65536 x 65536 = 4294967296. By always ensuring the vector sum is equal, for each transmitter pair, we can focus our magnetic rod where we wish, and scroll it through space, without inducing a current in our receiver coils. We amplify all of our coil 1 and coil 2 video waveforms with high current transistor amplifiers, which allows us to raster scan our rod of magnetic flux through the scanning area. The following prototype, with added virtual rod, allows us to picture the overall idea: (please see next post)
templeghost
user posted image

If we use 16 bit digital to analog convertors, and our scanning diameter is 50cm (0.5/65536), then we can scan to a pixel size as small as 0.00000763 meters. Because the magnetic fields from each transmitter pair add by vector addition, we can actually achieve an even smaller sample size. By varying the angle between the transmitters, or bringing them closer together, we can change the resolution of the system. When designing the system, we have to consider the frequency response of the coils. In general we can make the scanner resonant at the required frequency by adding a capacitor in parallel with the coils. In the case of my prototype, I simply calculated the required inductance of my coils given the scanning frequency and coaxial cable effective capacitance:

user posted image

In addition, we have to consider the charging phase of the coils. During the charging phase the magnetic flux is being established throughout the scanning area. In the case of this design, because we always ensure by vector addition that the angles change but the magnetomotive force is equal, we are essentially always operating at maximum current and flux. With this in mind, we have to ensure the rise time of the current coils is much less than the duration of each scanned point, at least this was my objective. Given the equations above, we can derive a time based equation to describe the establishment of magnetic flux by each transmitter pair:

user posted image

Here we are assigning a constant K because the number of turns, cross-sectional area, and length of the path remain essentially unchanged during operation. During any one horizontal line, the very slight change in angle by each transmitter from one pixel to the next has essentially left the length of the path unchanged. Being that we have an approximate equation for the magnetic flux, we can gain some idea of the apparent response of the system to the permeability of the scanned area based on the given currents and frequencies:

user posted image

If we scan at television, or computer monitor frequencies, it becomes a very easy matter to amplify the output of the system and display it on a monitor. We can use the same horizontal and vertical sync signals from the overall system to drive our output signal. We can connect all of the receiver coils, which are wrapped around the transmitters, in parallel, which effectively multiplies the output signal. We then amplify this signal to approximately 1 volt peak-to-peak, and lay it on top of a black composite video signal. At least, this was the straightforward method I employed for my original prototype. The horizontal frequency was 15.734KHz, the vertical frequency was the standard 60Hz. Being that the receiver coils will sense the change in magnetic flux, we can determine the induced voltage:

user posted image

No matter the mathematical approach, the receiver coils will certainly sense the magnetic flux which varies depending on the permability of the substance at hand. In the case of my prototype, each receiver had 15 turns of wire. Being that the overall system had 8 receivers, the induced output voltage was automatically amplified by 120. It is important to remember, the vector sum of the transmitter coil fields always remains the same, as such the transmitters do not impart any change in flux to the receiver coils, other than perhaps momentarily at the start of each horizontal line.

Results

Although my early prototype only used 4-bit digital to analog convertors, I was at least able to scroll the magnetic rod through space at televison frequencies. Viewing the output wasn't as easy as I had hoped. The damn thing would somehow make the computers, which were running in parallel, crash within a few minutes. In addition, depending on the particular configuration, the system would create a magnetic anomaly which caused all the televisions in the surrounding vicinty (including the output monitor and televisions 100 feet away), to suddenly display a swirling kaleidoscope pattern in the middle. I had no conception of the forces I was unleashing.

With my humble oscilloscope, and limited resources, it was a real challenge to engineer. Due to the limited resolution, the original prototype was only capable of displaying crude images of my hand, and when I got brave enough, my head and brain. It sure was fun to watch my fingers dancing on the screen. The first time I got it all working I knew I'd really done something new. I spent 20 minutes jumping up and down. In short, a magical machine came to me in my dreams, and I built that dream, and it really did appear to work.

No matter the approach to understanding it, we can arrange dual-coil electromagnet transmitters and scroll a magnetic rod through space. And, we can sense the changing flux with receiver coils which are wrapped around the transmitters. Unlike an MRI or CAT scan, which are focused on physical structure, this imaging method has the capability to view the electromagnetic structure of living things. If I had enough money, I would be busy building a full scale version of this system.

The modern ATI video cards with genlock could make easy work of it. A PC with 8 PCI slots could run 8 ATI video cards, and with a little tweaking, the cards could all be made to run from the same horizontal and vertical sync signals. With all those synchronized video signals, it only takes a little work to design high current amps, and the related coils. Being on a single PC, a little software would unlock a world of magnetic experimentation.

Each video display could be filled up with waveforms based on user input, automatically creating all the data. You could pan and zoom, and test many configurations with a minimal amount of fuss. In addition, you can simply plug the video output into a monitor to confirm your video waveforms. They should appear as a repeating gradient pattern which fans out from a point in space where the coils are, off the side of the monitor so to speak, at the angle of that particular transmitter pair.

With some effort, and little luck, you could have a radical magnetic imaging system in time for Christmas! Well, that's why I'm here really, hoping some very smart people will pick up on my idea, and maybe bring a new and very beneficial technology to medical science, and maybe physics too. At the very least, I hope you've found some inspiring ideas here.

freethis
ehehehhhe, biggrin.gif tongue.gif rolleyes.gif smile.gif

you say you need help? looks like your right on target, a few variable may be missing, I think you identify them, very carefully.


what are the coils resonance?
templeghost
QUOTE (freethis+Oct 3 2007, 11:41 PM)
..a few variable may be missing.. what are the  coils resonance?

It wasn't very finely tuned, a nice crystal based circuit could have really helped narrow it down. However, it was generally good from around 3MHz upto around 8MHz, which matched well with the various video frequencies I was driving it with.

hehehe, a few variables, some expert help and some money.. blink.gif
freethis
QUOTE (templeghost+Oct 4 2007, 12:17 AM)
It wasn't very finely tuned, a nice crystal based circuit could have really helped narrow it down. However, it was generally good from around 3MHz upto around 8MHz, which matched well with the various video frequencies I was driving it with.

hehehe, a few variables, some expert help and some money..  blink.gif

Oh yea, I could imagine this devise, more importantly give you some ideas that will make it do wonders.

There are some strange hints and clues, that I have left scattered about this forum, some are false, but if you can read into the words, the understanding will hit you. A relationship made, and the sudden click to realize the possibility's.

I am not a mathematician. I do in fact understand the principles.

QUOTE
Although my early prototype only used 4-bit digital to analog convertors, I was at least able to scroll the magnetic rod through space at televison frequencies. Viewing the output wasn't as easy as I had hoped. The damn thing would somehow make the computers, which were running in parallel, crash within a few minutes. In addition, depending on the particular configuration, the system would create a magnetic anomaly which caused all the televisions in the surrounding vicinty (including the output monitor and televisions 100 feet away), to suddenly display a swirling kaleidoscope pattern in the middle. I had no conception of the forces I was unleashing.


similar if you place a magnet on a sereen either pole will do, but the distortin is a polar field of a magnet, no?

Oh my, chaching heheheh!
Empress Palpatine
Wow, interesting. Actually while reading this, I wondered what this thing is to be used for. At the end you finally tell us.

Are you thinking of a device similar to Geordi's visor on Star Trek Next Generation? He is a blind person who has a visor connected somehow to his brain. Through it he can see the whole electromagnetic spectrum. On one episode, they have the audience see what he sees. It is very colorful, very wild.

It makes me think of a Nikola Tesla style invention.

Info on Geordi:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Geordi_La_Forge
templeghost
QUOTE
similar if you place a magnet on a sereen either pole will do, but the distortin is a polar field of a magnet, no?


Yes, I guess so. It is a funny story, I was working in an apartment building at the time, and my apartment was my lab. I had to boot each computer from a floppy, and edit the constant declarations, and then turn on all the amps. It would take about half an hour to get all the waveforms running.

I just got them up and turned on the amps when the phone rang. The old lady down the hall said there was something wrong with her cable. So, I went down the hall to help, and oh bugger, my scanner was totally messing up her television picture. I told her it must be a problem with the cable company, and hurried back to turn it off. laugh.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
similar if you place a magnet on a sereen either pole will do, but the distortin is a polar field of a magnet, no?


Yes, I guess so. It is a funny story, I was working in an apartment building at the time, and my apartment was my lab. I had to boot each computer from a floppy, and edit the constant declarations, and then turn on all the amps. It would take about half an hour to get all the waveforms running.

I just got them up and turned on the amps when the phone rang. The old lady down the hall said there was something wrong with her cable. So, I went down the hall to help, and oh bugger, my scanner was totally messing up her television picture. I told her it must be a problem with the cable company, and hurried back to turn it off. laugh.gif

He is a blind person who has a visor connected somehow to his brain. Through it he can see the whole electromagnetic spectrum. On one episode, they have the audience see what he sees. It is very colorful, very wild.


If it could bring sight to the blind, that would really be something. I could imagine a system similar to a tricorder. In this case though, it would be a hula hoop scanning ring which is passed over the person. As you move it up and down you would see real-time video of the electromagnetic structure of the body.

Gehn
QUOTE (templeghost+Oct 3 2007, 10:43 PM)
Introduction

I have enjoyed reading about gravity and quantum mechanics since I was a teenager. I am an electronic engineer who has mostly worked on internet, webcam, multimedia, video and programming stuff. As such, I am more of a digital expert than a quantum physicist. I have read books such as Quantum Theory by David Bohm, Intro to Quantum Mechanics by Linus Pauling and E Bright Wilson, and various books on vibrational and electronic spectroscopy. I can follow the logic, and some of the simpler math, but I am no mathemagician, not even close.

I spent many years of my life working on a magnetic imaging system, and to be honest, I would appreciate some help with it. Many of the people here have the expert knowlege to really understand it. I am somewhat of a dreamer, it is part of who I am, but I do have a very technical side, and I was hoping the good people of this forum might take a little time to study my magnetic imaging work, and interpret the nature of it. Some of you are so accomplished, having great understanding of the implications of magnetic monopoles, string theory, electromagnetic interactions, particle physics and other advanced topics.

My work is freely available to anyone that would like to use it, and with that, I would like to present a precise and classical type analysis of a new method for imaging the magnetic permeability of the living body with a straightforward phase sensitive magnetic inductance approach.

Scrolling a Magnetic Vector Rod through Space

If we take a loop of copper wire and pass electrcity through it, we create a magnetic field which extends out of the copper loop. If we wind many turns of copper wire and apply an electrical current, we multiply the strength of our magnetic field. The magnetomotive force through a coil is defined as the number of turns of wire, multiplied by the current through the wire. The magnetomotive force is also equal to the magnetic flux through the coil, multiplied by the reluctance of the magnetic circuit:

user posted image

The reluctance of a material to the setting up of magnetic flux is determined by the above equation, where the length of the magnetic path is divided by the permeability multiplied by the cross-sectional area. If we take two identical coils, with a common origin, and pass electrcity through both of the coils, the resultant magnetic field is given by the vector sum. We arrange two coils of common origin on an x-shaped structure:

user posted image

By varying the current through the coils, we can point our magnetic flux to any angle within the 52 degrees of separation. For the sake of simplicity, if coil 2 is driven by 10 amps, and coil 1 has no current, the magnetic flux will point at +26. If the situation is reversed, the magnetic flux will point at -26. If both coils are driven with an equal current, the magnetic field will point straight ahead. Where each of the two coils are offset by 26 degrees, with simple vector addition we can calculate the angle which our magnetic flux will point for any applied currents:

user posted image

Please note, I took these arbitrary equations from my notes, in this case the r1 variable corresponds to the current through coil 2. The r2 variable corresponds to the current through coil 1. Being that we can point our magnetic fields, we manufacture multiple dual-coil transmitters and place them in an equidistant fashion around a scanning ring, the area we wish to study. In the case of this geometric arrangement, each electromagnet is helping to focus the magnetic flux:

user posted image

Clearly, this arrangement creates an octagon shaped scanning area in the center of our circle. If we think in terms of a raster scanning cathode ray tube, we can create video waveforms for each transmitter pair such that all of our magnetic fields are always pointing at the same spot, which is moved through space. We ensure that the magnetic vector sum from each transmitter pair is the same for every point. This has the effect of pulling a magnetic rod through space without changing the sum of the magnetic flux through our transmitters:

user posted image

If we are using 16 bit digital to analog convertors, we can readily choose our squared force as 65536 x 65536 = 4294967296. By always ensuring the vector sum is equal, for each transmitter pair, we can focus our magnetic rod where we wish, and scroll it through space, without inducing a current in our receiver coils. We amplify all of our coil 1 and coil 2 video waveforms with high current transistor amplifiers, which allows us to raster scan our rod of magnetic flux through the scanning area. The following prototype, with added virtual rod, allows us to picture the overall idea: (please see next post)

Sounds cool to me!

- Gehn biggrin.gif
freethis
QUOTE (templeghost+Oct 4 2007, 04:48 PM)



it would be a hula hoop scanning ring which is passed over the person. As you move it up and down you would see real-time video of the electromagnetic structure of the body.

sound like a x-ray machine to me....
I think you should try switching the positive to the negative side, visa versa. ehhehe.

Sapo
It _does_ sound interesting. The spatial resolution of the sensory field might be coarse with your roughed in idea, as well as time, but, yeah! Develop it. Go, Daddy! The GPUs are a dam' good idea, too, but you might be shy a few Tesla...
earls
Hey, what powers this machine? Oh wait, I see... A crank!
templeghost
QUOTE (Sapo+Oct 5 2007, 12:42 AM)
It _does_ sound interesting. The spatial resolution of the sensory field might be coarse with your roughed in idea, as well as time, but, yeah! Develop it. Go, Daddy! The GPUs are a dam' good idea, too, but you might be shy a few Tesla...

The strength of the magnetic field is a great question. In a traditional sense the depth of penetration, with this system, would seem poor. On the other hand, we need to consider the forced interaction at the quantum-mechanical level.

For a complete understanding of the system, we need to know how those magnetic vector potentials really behave, given the geometric shape of the system, and the fact that the central spot is raster scanning through space.

It isn't an easy question to answer, and to be honest, I'm not sure if our current theories can fully explain the functionality of the system. Still, a rigorous attempt at calculating the magnetic vector potentials would seem worthy of investigation.

Looks around for a mathemagician...



Pink Elephant
It all sounds half-way intriguing, but where are all the implied equations and diagrams?

I don't think anyone can really understand what you're talking about when most of the information is missing...
templeghost
QUOTE (Pink Elephant+Oct 5 2007, 05:58 AM)
I don't think anyone can really understand what you're talking about when most of the information is missing...

I have attempted to provide a simplistic presentation, whereby, a college professor could present the idea to his students. As such, if I have failed to present the system design in an easy to understand fashion, I am happy to take some time and ensure a clear presentation.

Please elaborate on the confusing sections and I will do my best to describe them, to the very best of my ability. Any suggestions welcome.
meBigGuy
I don't understand how much the permeability of the material in the beam path affects the receiver coils. It seems that they would pick up the transmitters, and there would be very little variation due to whatever was in the center. Your equations are a bit fuzzy (as in hard to read), and I'll admit to not crunching through them.

Is the idea that the total current through each TX coil pair is constant even though each coils current is changing, and therfore not seen by the receiver coil?

You use the words "magnetic rod". This is just the crossing point of the beams? I don't see how it is a "rod" or what you mean by that.

Also, the receiver response is going to be sensitive to ANY permeability on the path of that TX coil pair (assuming the reseiver is sensitive to anything in the path). It doesn't seem like each RX coil is actually centered on the magnetic crossing point. Essentially each beam is seeing everything in its path. You will get something, but I don't see how you can assemble it into a coherent image.

Enough for a first pass.

edit- You may want to look into the image formation techniques used by cat scan and MRI imaging systems (although cat scan may be closer to what you are doing)
templeghost
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Oct 5 2007, 08:31 AM)
I don't understand  how much the permeability of the material in the beam path affects the receiver coils.  It seems that they would pick up the transmitters, and there would be very little variation due to whatever was in the center. Is the idea that the total current through each TX coil pair is constant even though each coils current is changing, and therfore not seen by the receiver coil?


Your questions demonstrate a great level of understanding, and ability to enquire as to the the subject at hand. You stated very accurately, the receiver coils will not sense any change in flux when the angle of the flux from the transmitter changes. Although the currents through coil1 or coil2 will change, we always make sure that the vector sum is equal, thereby avoiding any induced voltage in the core.

QUOTE
You use the words "magnetic rod".  This is just the crossing point of the beams?  I don't see how it is a "rod" or what you mean by that.


Before building the system I ran many computer simulations, mostly written in Turbo Pascal. In most cases, the magnetic poles, when propagating through space, would form a vertical void in the center.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You use the words "magnetic rod".  This is just the crossing point of the beams?  I don't see how it is a "rod" or what you mean by that.


Before building the system I ran many computer simulations, mostly written in Turbo Pascal. In most cases, the magnetic poles, when propagating through space, would form a vertical void in the center.

Also, the receiver response is going to be sensitive to ANY permeability on the path of that TX coil pair.


This is the primary reason why there are multiple transmitter/receiver pairs, and not just 3 to triangulate the location. In so doing, we multiply the signal. The very slight change in angle doesn't contribute much, if any, change in flux. However, the multiple transmitters make the focus point all important, and the surrounding matter less important. As such, the change in flux is mostly determined by the point through which our magnetic rod passes.

Indeed, the more transmitter/receiver pairs, the more the central change in flux becomes the all important factor, which determines the output voltage, depending on the permeability. In truth, the permeability is a classical concept, in reality the nature of the induced voltage is born of quantum-electromagnetic interactions.

No sooner than the magnetic rod begins propagating, it becomes a system unto itself, and in so doing, the induced output actually carries across the pixel spacing. With this being the case, the output resolution can far exceed the expected results, which would classically be based upon the driving waveforms.

Wonderful questions there, thank you very much for helping point out many of the design considerations.
meBigGuy
Your coil driving idea, and the positioning of the receiver coils seem at first glance to be a good idea.

I'm going to focus on image formation. I think that is your biggest problem.

QUOTE
As such, the change in flux is mostly determined by the point through which our magnetic rod passes


This what I don't get. Imagine a circle of permeability around the entire area. Every receiver would see the effect, but there is no permeability at the center.
How can it tell the difference.

Each magnetic field is independent. They do not interact non-linerly. There is nothing special happening in the center to multiply the effect and make it seem focused in the center. It will just sense the sum of the permeability of the entire path. Each coil set will do that. The resultant information can not be use to compose a picture.

meBigGuy
hmmmm

Thinking about the each coil and the resultant magnetic fields. I'm not sure about this, but I dont see a magnetic "beam" as you put it, being formed by each coil assembly in that configuration. The magnetic field formed by the coil is broad circular closed lines of flux through the center on both sides of the coil. (you've probably seen pictures). Anyway, there are some finite element electromagnetic analysis programs (1 in the public domain, but I can't remember the name) where you can describe the geometry and compute the fields. I'll try to post the name tomorrow (or, you can just search for it). Not trying to rain on your parade, just don't see it.

off to bed
templeghost
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Oct 5 2007, 09:40 AM)
There is nothing special happening in the center to multiply the effect and make it seem focused in the center.  It will just sense the sum of the permeability of the entire path.

This is the key, as in your quote, the receiver coils will sense the permeability of the entire path. From pixel to pixel, for 8 or 16 receivers, the greatest change in the path, from point to point, is born of the central spot. The angle has only changed by a very small amount, the greatest change is found at the most distant point, where the magnetic rod is scrolling through space. And therefore, the majority of the induced voltage is determined by the scanned location.

templeghost
QUOTE (templeghost+Oct 5 2007, 10:18 AM)
The angle has only changed by a very small amount, the greatest change is found at the most distant point, where the magnetic rod is scrolling through space. And therefore, the majority of the induced voltage is determined by the scanned location.

Further to the above concept, we need to consider the velocity of the raster scanning point through space. For each receiver, the change in magnetic flux per unit of time increases with distance from the receiver. As an example, we can consider the receiver at 6 o'clock.

When scanning a horizontal line, the magnetic flux close to the receiver has moved an extremely short distance when scanning to the next point, however, the flux at the most distant point has travelled a much greater distance in the same amount of time. As such, we can imagine the magnetic flux velocity as seen by the receivers when the raster scanning point travels through the center:

user posted image

Given the geometric arrangement of transmitter/receiver coils, the system is constantly striving to maximize the induced voltage based on the velocity of the distant raster scanning point.
meBigGuy

I think you will find that the "beam" of magnetism you expect from the coils does not exist quite like what you want.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../magfie.html#c1

The field will die of at 1/r^2

Note that the flux line surround the coil. Any permeability moving through any flux line will cause changes in coil impedance (which is essentially what you are after, right?). I don't think they are strongest in the center moving away from the coil, either, but I'm not sure.

The flux lines for either coil are fixed, and the total is the superposition of the two coils. But, there is no "sweeping beam" caused by changing the coil currents. There is only increasing and decreasing flux magnitudes of the two coils. If you think of the current as DC, there are two dc fields. They dont really cancel and focus. They just sort of overlap.

Think of just 1 coil. You put in a dc current and move an iron rod through the field, anywhere. You get a change in current because of energy absorbed by the rod. Now, decreasing the current through the coil just makes it less sensitive.

Anyway, there is a program called fastHenry which is a field solver. I think it is what you need to analyze what is really happening.

http://www.fastfieldsolvers.com/

I think you have several fundamental issues:

1. The resultant beam from 2 coils is not what you are expecting. It is a much broader thing.

2. Just because one coil gives a beam in 1 direction and the other gives a beam in the other does not mean that the resultant from varying the currents will form a beam that moves in the fashion you envision.

3. Any permeability anywhere in the flux lines will cause effects, and the effects die off with distance quite rapidly.

Again, I could be wrong here. I may be missing or misunderstanding something you are doing.

But, I do know that the field solver will not lie, and will allow you to tune your system precisely. It may take a while to get up on it, but it will be well worth it.

You may want to start looking at feeding phased AC currents to the coils, which may be able to generated focused beams. Also, there may be better geometries.








templeghost
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Oct 6 2007, 02:31 AM)
I think you will find that the "beam" of magnetism you expect from the coils does not exist quite like what you want.


Give me some credit here, I did actually spend years building it and testing it. I wouldn't claim to have solved the mystery of magnetic fields, however, I may have touched upon some of the magic which is waiting to be discovered.

QUOTE
The field will die of at 1/r^2


This is true in the case of a single coil, in the case of muliple coils the situation becomes very complex. Ultimately, we have to focus our attention on the real force behind magnetic fields, which is the magnetic vector potential. The magnetic potentials can exist even where the apparent magnetic field is zero.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The field will die of at 1/r^2


This is true in the case of a single coil, in the case of muliple coils the situation becomes very complex. Ultimately, we have to focus our attention on the real force behind magnetic fields, which is the magnetic vector potential. The magnetic potentials can exist even where the apparent magnetic field is zero.

The flux lines for either coil are fixed, and the total is the superposition of the two coils. But, there is no "sweeping beam" caused by changing the coil currents.  There is only increasing and decreasing flux magnitudes of the two coils.


When two electromagnets share a common origin the resulting magnetic field is given by the vector sum. If you place one magnet on top of another and hold a compass over them, and move one of the magnets, the needle of the compass will move about depending on the vector sum. The same holds true for electromagnets with varying currents. I did it mathematically, and by extensive experimentation, including holding a compass over my dual-coil transmitters while varying the currents.

QUOTE
The resultant beam from 2 coils is not what you are expecting.  It is a much broader thing.


I'm not sure I understand you here, however, I am not suggesting that the magnetic field that exits the transmitter coils is a beam, but rather that a unique effect is generated at the center when we scroll the magnetic vectors by varying the currents.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The resultant beam from 2 coils is not what you are expecting.  It is a much broader thing.


I'm not sure I understand you here, however, I am not suggesting that the magnetic field that exits the transmitter coils is a beam, but rather that a unique effect is generated at the center when we scroll the magnetic vectors by varying the currents.

Just because one coil gives a beam in 1 direction and the other gives a beam in the other does not mean that the resultant from varying the currents will form a beam that moves in the fashion you envision.


No matter how we envision it, the varying currents in the dual-coil transmitters will point the magnetic fields in the desired direction. Te be more specific, they will aim the magnetic vector potentials at the desired location.

QUOTE
Any permeability anywhere in the flux lines will cause effects, and the effects die off with distance quite rapidly.


True enough, however, in this case we are focusing a great deal of magnetic energy at the scanning point. Will also have to remember that the magnetic field fades most quickly at infinity, in the case of this geometric arrangement this offers a wonderful benefit to the functionality of the system.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Any permeability anywhere in the flux lines will cause effects, and the effects die off with distance quite rapidly.


True enough, however, in this case we are focusing a great deal of magnetic energy at the scanning point. Will also have to remember that the magnetic field fades most quickly at infinity, in the case of this geometric arrangement this offers a wonderful benefit to the functionality of the system.

But, I do know that the field solver will not lie, and will allow you to tune your system precisely.  It may take a while to get up on it, but it will be well worth it.


I will have to take a look at it...
meBigGuy
I have an idea for a simple test setup to evaluate the coil assembly scan performance.

Use an op-amp circuit driven by a ramp. The circuit has two outputs, one ramping up and the other ramping down such that the sum is always equal. You can use this to drive your coils and get "infinite" resolution for testing. You can put permeable targets in the target area and see if you get the desired results. For example see if a layered object (layers of different permeability) produces definable boundaries as it is scanned. This tests the performance of a single assembly.

Also, you can play with iron filings in oil on a horizontal surface to actually see the magnetic patterns with DC or slowly changing currents.
Sapo
Ok. I thought I was being snide before, with the 'few Tesla short' remark, but it was either missed or ignored.

Without resorting to crayons, a la Mr. RP, or shouting: The resolution of your device, at the power levels available from off-the-shelf parts, will give you a fuzzy picture of nothing much at all. You seem to be re-inventing the MRI using 50 year old parts....

Sorry.
templeghost
QUOTE (Sapo+Oct 6 2007, 01:53 PM)
Ok. I thought I was being snide before, with the 'few Tesla short' remark, but it was either missed or ignored.

I answered your question earlier in the thread. I actually agreed with your point and pointed out that we need to investigate how the magnetic vector potentials really behave given the geometry of the system.

QUOTE
Without resorting to crayons, a la Mr. RP, or shouting: The resolution of your device, at the power levels available from off-the-shelf parts, will give you a fuzzy picture of nothing much at all.


Well, I agree with the fuzzy picture part, however, I was able to verify the functionality of the concept, which was my only intention given the limited resources. When making the first version of any new imaging concept, I am sure the first images were very grainy.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Without resorting to crayons, a la Mr. RP, or shouting: The resolution of your device, at the power levels available from off-the-shelf parts, will give you a fuzzy picture of nothing much at all.


Well, I agree with the fuzzy picture part, however, I was able to verify the functionality of the concept, which was my only intention given the limited resources. When making the first version of any new imaging concept, I am sure the first images were very grainy.

You seem to be re-inventing the MRI using 50 year old parts.... Sorry.


Well, this simply isn't correct in anyway whatsoever. I am not aligning hydrogen atoms in a very powerful magnetic gradient field and then knocking them over with an RF pulse in order to detect the emitted fields and slowly build up a picture.

I am scrolling a magnetic vector field through space in real-time, at television like frequenices, in order to view live video of magnetic structure. My scanning concept is not tuned by frequency to a particular element, as an MRI typically is. In general, the presented concept will see each element as a different color.

I hope that helps clear up some misconceptions.
Sapo
I beg your pardon. It does indeed.

An artistic device, then? The images would certainly be lovely, if taken of you, or me, for instance.
templeghost
QUOTE (Sapo+Oct 6 2007, 03:00 PM)
I beg your pardon. It does indeed.

What does indeed? You aren't referring to any of the points I have made.

QUOTE
An artistic device, then? The images would certainly be lovely, if taken of you, or me, for instance.


Well yes, a much more elegant approach to imaging, more of a sensing device than a brute force tactic. blink.gif

Sapo
QUOTE
What does indeed?


Clears up some of my misconceptions.
templeghost
QUOTE (Sapo+Oct 6 2007, 03:20 PM)
Clears up some of my misconceptions.

hehehe, sorry, it has been a hard life.... wink.gif
Sapo
laugh.gif Good for you! Mine, too, but I wouldn't trade it! cool.gif
meBigGuy
You never commented on my test system idea. Did it make sense to you?

I think you are confused about the difference between the magnetic moment and the magnetic field. The only "real" thing is the magnetic field.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...tic/magmom.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_moment

The actual change in energy at a point as the magnetic moment (magnetic field alignment) moves is a gradual thing (sine function). There is no "spike" of magnetism.

The forces generated are based on the lines of flux (flux density) in the volume of the objects intersection with the magnetic field.

You can think of the force generated on a permeable object at a distance from your coil as an indication of the change in impedance of the coil.

And, if you want to read about the state of the art in such things, a good place to start would be here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_detector

And, yes, I do understand the difference between the AC field of a metal detector, and your "scanned" method. Problem is, I don't think anything is really "scanned" in your setup, and my test setup will allow you to test that.

Again, if you think that you have discovered some new "magnetic moment" effect where "spikes" of magnetism can be scanned across space, I suggest you try building my very very simple test setup before proceeding.

Another test setup would be to actually move the coils, rather than steering them electronically. This will aim the field with 100% reliability and illustrate whether any resolution can be achieved.





templeghost
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Oct 6 2007, 09:26 PM)
You never commented on my test system idea. Did it make sense to you? ..The circuit has two outputs, one ramping up and the other ramping down such that the sum is always equal.


I am afraid this assumption is not correct, in this case the vector sum would not be equal because the vector sum does not equate to a constant value when driven with straight line changes.

QUOTE
I think you are confused about the difference between the magnetic moment and the magnetic field.  The only "real" thing is the magnetic field.


How on earth did you come to this conclusion? Please provide a quote where I confuse magnetic moment with the magnetic field. Also, please show me a magnetic field which exists without a corresponding magnetic vector potential.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I think you are confused about the difference between the magnetic moment and the magnetic field.  The only "real" thing is the magnetic field.


How on earth did you come to this conclusion? Please provide a quote where I confuse magnetic moment with the magnetic field. Also, please show me a magnetic field which exists without a corresponding magnetic vector potential.

The actual change in energy at a point as the magnetic moment (magnetic field alignment) moves is a gradual thing (sine function).  There is no "spike" of magnetism.


If we move magnetic flux through a copper loop we induce a voltage based on the rate of change of magnetic flux, please provide an instance where this is not the case.

QUOTE
The forces generated are based on the lines of flux (flux density) in the volume of the objects intersection with the magnetic field.


The forces generated? I am not sure what you are referring to. I am not attempting to create magnetic force in any way. Although some may be created by the system, they are not employed to do any work.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The forces generated are based on the lines of flux (flux density) in the volume of the objects intersection with the magnetic field.


The forces generated? I am not sure what you are referring to. I am not attempting to create magnetic force in any way. Although some may be created by the system, they are not employed to do any work.

You can think of the force generated on a permeable object at a distance from your coil as an indication of the change in impedance of the coil.


Again, this has absolutely no foundation considering the given system.

QUOTE
Another test setup would be to actually move the coils, rather than steering them electronically.  This will aim the field with 100% reliability and illustrate whether any resolution can be achieved.


100% reliability? Are you suggesting that basic vector addition is flawed in some way? Please provide an instance where this is the case. At the least, please provide an experimentally verified system which can demonstrate this most basic mathematical premise, and the many varied physical examples thereof, are inherently flawed.

meBigGuy
QUOTE
I am afraid this assumption is not correct, in this case the vector sum would not be equal because the vector sum does not equate to a constant value when driven with straight line changes.

Yep, I missed that detail. There is probably a cool trick to do this by adding 2 phased sinewaves (26 degrees). You can vary the amplitude of one, and determine the amplitude of the other needed to keep the sum constant (like an AGC circuit). The rms values of the sine waves becomes your coil currents. I know, a/d converters and a look up table are simpler - just had to say it anyway smile.gif

http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD633.pdf can do cool things


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I am afraid this assumption is not correct, in this case the vector sum would not be equal because the vector sum does not equate to a constant value when driven with straight line changes.

Yep, I missed that detail. There is probably a cool trick to do this by adding 2 phased sinewaves (26 degrees). You can vary the amplitude of one, and determine the amplitude of the other needed to keep the sum constant (like an AGC circuit). The rms values of the sine waves becomes your coil currents. I know, a/d converters and a look up table are simpler - just had to say it anyway smile.gif

http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD633.pdf can do cool things


If we move magnetic flux through a copper loop we induce a voltage based on the rate of change of magnetic flux, please provide an instance where this is not the case.

Not arguing that. I'm merely pointing out that the lines of flux are not concentrated or focused quite like I think you are expecting.

QUOTE
The forces generated? I am not sure what you are referring to

One way to think of the magnitude of the changing field is to consider the force induced on a permeable element. Current induced in the object creates a counter force per the Lenz effect. This is just another way to look at what it is you are detecting. The force on the object translates to current change in the coils (roughly speaking).

Imagine a scanning field with the magnetic vector potential sweeping from A to B with the object in the center. The force generated on the object relates to the amount of flux change it experiences. I'm saying the magnitude of that force falls off more slowly than I think you expect. While the average field may point as you desire,I think the lines of flux are not as you picture.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The forces generated? I am not sure what you are referring to

One way to think of the magnitude of the changing field is to consider the force induced on a permeable element. Current induced in the object creates a counter force per the Lenz effect. This is just another way to look at what it is you are detecting. The force on the object translates to current change in the coils (roughly speaking).

Imagine a scanning field with the magnetic vector potential sweeping from A to B with the object in the center. The force generated on the object relates to the amount of flux change it experiences. I'm saying the magnitude of that force falls off more slowly than I think you expect. While the average field may point as you desire,I think the lines of flux are not as you picture.

Are you suggesting that basic vector addition is flawed in some way

No I am not. I'm suggesting that the resultant vector potential represents the average of the fields of the two coils, but does not define their shape. You are expecting 1 shape, I am expecting quite another.

This link should keep you busy for a while smile.gif

http://www.netdenizen.com/emagnettest/offaxis/?offaxisloop

Here's to hoping I'm wrong smile.gif I am on your side, you know.





templeghost
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Oct 7 2007, 09:56 AM)
Here's to hoping I'm wrong smile.gif  I am on your side, you know.

Thank you for that, I am still myself trying to fully comprehend how the system functions, and all this back and forth has really helped me along. wink.gif

QUOTE
I think the lines of flux are not as you picture. ..I'm suggesting that the resultant vector potential represents the average of the fields of the two coils, but does not define their shape.  You are expecting 1 shape, I am expecting quite another.


I think we are really getting to the heart of the matter here, and I believe you are right. The flux from our transmitter coils has a defined shape as it were, however, our compass needles and the magnetic poles are still pointed in the correct direction by altering the magnetic vector angles. To consider the image from earlier:

user posted image

In reality, the lines follow the needle of a compass, and it would appear the magnetic vectors are pointing the northern magnetic pole at our centrally located raster scanning point. Or the south pole as the case may be. Where the magnetic vectors are scrolling a magnetic pole, I gather we would have a change in flux, at least where they are focused, and this may explain why I was able to detect that changing flux and thus view images based on the configuration.

Overall, it would seem that our classical flux approach can help us to design the coils, amplifiers and associated hardware, but in order to understand the functionality of the system we have to consider the nature of the magnetic vector potentials and the flux which associates with them at the raster scanning point.

Offers a friendly pat on the back and goes off to have a look at the link..

templeghost
I must take a moment to thank everyone who took the time to consider this system and offer some thoughts on it thus far. As a poet might say, an angel of heaven is playing his fiddle, they are solving the riddle of the pole in the middle.

If we really want to conquer the beast as it were, we need a consistent and solid approach. In order to implement the system, there are many paths we can take. There are readily available video technologies which can help to produce our waveforms, and in a general sense, our design requirements are concerned with the identical coils, amplifiers, and the display and recording sections of the overall system.

We must ensure that all of our transmitter coils are identical. I used a circuit board approach to guarantee this, however, a talented transformer winder could ensure the correct configuration by carefully wrapping the dual coil transmitters on X shaped structures. Saint Andrews type crosses, or Xbox 360 like spheres with hollowed out grooves, could serve as ideal structures which guarantee a common origin.

If we consider the system in digital terms, we end up with 8 or 16 video pictures with dual-channel waveforms. For instance, if the dual-coil transmitters are driven by the red and blue channels of a video memory, then we can picture the required gradient fields as seen on a monitor:

user posted image

The circled area represents the actual scanning area, and in practice the circle should be scaled to the maximum size on the monitor, with the remaining areas appearing black. In terms of software to derive our driving waveforms, we need to consider the distance of the transmitter to the center spot, and the angle of separation of the dual-coil transmitters. Given these parameters we can solve for every point in the scanning area considering our driving requirements. The vector sum must remain the same:

user posted image

And the angle can be readily deduced using standard trigonometry:

User posted image

If we are constructing any given digital system, we only need to solve the driving waveforms once. For each additional transmitter pair we can rotate the central scanning image through 45 degrees, at least in the case of eight pairs, in order to generate the ideal waveforms for the next transmitter pair. Considering this, a system running multiple video cards could simply load the appropriate bitmap images in order to drive the system. Given this design philosophy, panning and zooming becomes as simple as loading different bitmaps based on user input.

Considering the various video technologies available, we have numerous options. Because AGA based Amiga computers can run from an external master clock, XCLK, and video sync signals, it becomes a trivial matter to design amplifiers and coils to match with the required frequencies. In this case the system could enjoy at least 6 bit resolution, and with clever programming, 8 bit+ is possible for each transmitter pair. Alternatively, modern pioneer DVD players can run from an external sync, and as such the chrominance and luminance signals could carry the required synchronised video waveforms.

Moreover, modern RAMDAC chips could easily be assembled on a single PCI slot such that they all run from the same sync signals. With this being the case, the very best in digital to analog conversion could achieve incredible resolution, with 10, or even 12 bits per channel. Due to the vector sums, we can map the output such that we exceed the apparent resolution of a single D/A convertor. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, some ATI video cards, such as the All-In-Wonder-Pro, can genlock their video signal with an external video source. As such, a computer running multiple cards could readily offer the ability to drive many 8 bit waveforms.

With a little work you could have a computer before you driving 16 magnetic coils which scroll a magnetic pole through space in real time. I have given of a radical concept, but in addition, I have provided multiple practical systems whereby you can test and verify the given concept. If anyone should have 7 amiga 1200 computers, I would be happy to work with you and demonstrate the system, or even provide the required genlock, amplifiers and scanning ring at no cost such that you can investigate the nature of magnetic vectors and the system at hand.

templeghost
Given the design of my original prototype, each Amiga computer, and Agnus chip (from lamb), was capable of driving 3 waveforms by using the red, green and blue video channels. The following jpeg is an actual screen shot of the waveforms required for driving a magnetic transmitter pair with the red and green video channels, along with the blue waveform data for the next transmitter pair:

user posted image

With each computer generating 3 waveforms, I only needed 6 computers running in parallel in order to generate the required 16 waveforms for 8 transmitter pairs. After a long while working on other projects, I am once again focused on my imaging technology. Having gathered together all of my original work, I find that I have a broken power supply, one blown Agnus chip, and some other hardware problems.

I am working around the clock to rectify the situation and it shouldn't be long before I have the entire system up and running again, although some parts may be very hard to locate. Please stay tuned if you are interested, I will be constantly updating as I work, and I will upload photos, videos, code, and even an online 'waveform calculator' so that everyone can follow along, and replicate my results. I already have some software online, no sooner than I clean the input variables, and finalise the code, I will share the link.

Thanks to everyone, especially those that have contacted me, please be patient while I attempt to upgrade the technology in order to generate some pretty pictures. The last few days I have been working on some hardware and software such that the output, which is essentially grayscale, can be mapped to a color palette. I seem to have that figured, so the latest pics should help to demonstrate the nature of the system much more clearly.

If a rich man wanted to watch a camel pass through the eye of a needle, he could purchase a couple of 8-channel arbitrary waveform generators, which run in sync. A couple of these, combined with some high current amps and coils would be a magnetic dream could true. Check out the 8-channel waveform generator:

Arbitrary Waveform Generator

It is like an earth, and the location of the pole creates the seasons and brings forth the magical fruit. Again, it is like a north pole, and in time you are gifted with a great present. It is like unto a candy cane, and you wrap the electric and magnetic colors together and you find of the sweetest taste, but what of the results?

BigDumbWeirdo
I have to say, at first glance, your idea seems to shout "free-energy crank," but upon closer inspection, I see that is not the case. After reading this thread and developing a conceptual idea of what you're talking about, my interest is piqued. However, I can't get any of the images you posted to display. Do you think you could re-post them, so I can get a fuller understanding of your device? Thanks
templeghost
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 9 2007, 09:37 PM)
After reading this thread and developing a conceptual idea of what you're talking about, my interest is piqued. However, I can't get any of the images you posted to display.

Thanks for the interest BDW. Not seeing the images... I am not sure why that would be. It is possible, but very unlikely, that your IP range is blocked by my server because of others performing brute force attacks from that IP block. Alternatively, and much more likely, your ISP may have been experiencing some difficulty.

In either case, most likely the images will work the next time you visit the thread. If doesn't work next time around, please let me know and I will certainly upload the images to another server. Good on you for having the patience to read such a thread, even though the pictures didn't load. (Fingers crossed for next time)

BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE (templeghost+Nov 9 2007, 07:29 PM)
In either case, most likely the images will work the next time you visit the thread. If doesn't work next time around, please let me know and I will certainly upload the images to another server.

I'm back on a new day and still no luck. If others are seeing them, then likely the site hosting them is blocked by the network admins here at work where I usually read this forum. Usually, though, only .html, .asp, .htm, (and so on) files are blocked, but I'll try them at home, tonight.
templeghost
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 10 2007, 09:57 PM)
likely the site hosting them is blocked by the network admins here at work where I usually read this forum.

I see, it is the first time I've come across that, although my webhost is very professional they do host all manner of content, so I'm not too surprised.

Considering that, I have copied over much of this thread to a free server which should never suffer from such a problem, although I can't hotlink to the images there, I can make a copy of the thread.

The Magnetic Ghost Machine

Hopefully, this will remain a rare problem, but should anyone be unable to view the associated images, they can get a more detailed view, with images, at the above link.

On another note, I have been pouring through my old work and assembling an updated version of the scanner in order to produce some new output images. Just yesterday, I was able to view output data on my oscilloscope. At this point I need to filter and amplify the output in order to produce realtime video...

Is anyone taking bets, can he produce some videos or what? laugh.gif

BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE (templeghost+Nov 11 2007, 01:46 PM)


The Magnetic Ghost Machine


Thanks,
The whole thing makes a lot more sense now. I'm not sure if you're going to produce anything unseen or unheard of before, but I'm sure it has a lot of potential to be useful. Reverse engineering would probably benefit from your device. Perhaps it could also be used as an add-on for other forms of imaging, boosting extra information.
It's nice to see an amateur inventor who isn't a crank, I have to say. Warms my heart, and all that. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Is anyone taking bets, can he produce some videos or what?  laugh.gif

No bets, but I am eagerly waiting for some.
Sapo
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 11 2007, 06:38 PM)
No bets, but I am eagerly waiting for some.

Some videos, or some what? Be specific, now! biggrin.gif
BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE (Sapo+Nov 11 2007, 06:42 PM)
Some videos, or some what? Be specific, now! biggrin.gif

Some what, of course. Who wants video when we can have what? biggrin.gif
But I'll settle for videos.
meBigGuy
QUOTE
Is anyone taking bets, can he produce some videos or what?



I've placed my bets. Videos maybe, but the attempt at the steering of magnetic fields will not produce the focused pattern you anticipate. Magnetic fields are circular phenomena, and will not combine and focus in the ways you propose, as I described previously.

I'm not saying that you will not find a use for what you are doing, (such as causing hallucinations), but it will not do what you have described with the accuracy you have stated.

I wish you the best at proving me wrong (in a very positive way). Actually, I hope I am wrong.
templeghost
I've been very busy verifying things over here, and I have some sketches of the output on my oscilloscope. Theory is great, but when it comes to verifying the output there is nothing like good old fashion results, especially where I need to build an amplifier for the output from the receiver coils.

I did this many years back, but I needed to do it again in order to verify the current hardware and software. I start up all the computers with the required waveforms and use a simple finger or wrist test to see if it is all working in sync like it should.

If we are viewing in the tens of microseconds on the oscilloscope, we are seeing the horizontal lines as it were, it is much like testing a CRT with a test pattern. In this case I had my oscilloscope at ten micro seconds per div. So, I just poke in a single finger, or in this case my wrist, and move it from left to right in the scanning area.

When my wrist is on the left I get something like this:

user posted image

When my wrist is on the right I get something like this:

user posted image

It gives us a good idea about how the system is functioning. If I set the oscilloscope to view in the microsecond range I can use a similar test, but this time I move my finger up and down, and again the fluctuation in the output follows with the location within the physical system.

Overall, I really need to design and build an amp and add the waveform on top of a blank composite video signal, which I already have running in sync. For the next step then, I need a bunch of parts from a good electronics supplier, so I have to take a trip for a few days or so. Also, I've almost finished an online waveform calculator so you can really see how I am deriving everything, I'll get that online as soon as I can.

Thanks for the encouragement everyone, going off for some shepherds pie!

meBigGuy
Looks intriguing, I'll admit. I think the issue will be with structure. There is no way to tell where the object is with respect to the field source. Anything breaking the flux line along the whole flux line path will have the same effect.

But, I'm actually surprised to see what you are showing.
BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Nov 12 2007, 10:13 PM)
Looks intriguing, I'll admit.  I think the issue will be with structure.  There is no way to tell where the object is with respect to the field source.  Anything breaking the flux line along the whole flux line path will have the same effect.

But, I'm actually surprised to see what you are showing.

MeBigGuy, I think he might be able to set up an array of these, or move it's position to take a number of readings, like an MRI and get good 3d image. Unless, that is, I'm misunderstanding something.

Templeghost, two things.
1: You're gonna wind up with aUser posted image before all is said and done... I'd buy one.
2: Mind if I quote you elsewhere in this forum?

(I found this article when looking for that image. Nifty, t'aint it? biggrin.gif )
meBigGuy
@BDW

Read my previous posts in this thread.

I question whether a magnetic vector implies a single lobed magnetic field. It's not the same as using phased antenna arrays to focus RF fields. I supplied him with references to calculate the actual off axis fields, but they were not trivial calculations.

But, the scope traces look interesting. I question how many positions would cause the same image, and whether those ambiguities are all resolvable by an array of 8 devices.

As I think more about it, I'd expect what he is showing at one side or the other, but I wouldn't expect a smooth transition between.

This can actually be studied in a more meaningful way by using a pickup coil within the target area. Or, by measuring force on an object within the target area.

Time will tell.
BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Nov 13 2007, 02:26 AM)
As I think more about it, I'd expect what he is showing at one side or the other, but I wouldn't expect a smooth transition between.

I tend to agree, but I am no expert on electromagnetism. You, however, seem to know the subject quite well, which makes me glad I agree. biggrin.gif I do have doubts (about our doubts unsure.gif ) though. Perhaps he could augment the imaging abilities with an array of magnetic switches? if you don't know to what I am referring, I mean a small (1-2mm) plastic container with a pressure switch on all four sides, and a small metal ball inside. (please forgive my naivete, it's an idea based on something I built with a toys-r-us electrical set when I was a child. Only mine was bigger than 2mm, more like 2 inches, but I think a 2mm version could be built, easily enough.) this might be able to read the perturbations (right word?) in the magnetic field generated by the device, and distorted by the object being scanned. This would give an additional image with a resolution equal to the grid size of the array, and if he builds a working model, he might be able to secure funding to build such an array with much much higher resolution. (I picture the array as Once again, I'm no expert. Feel free to correct any mistaken assumptions I have made.

QUOTE
This can actually be studied in a more meaningful way by using a pickup coil within the target area.  Or, by measuring force on an object within the target area.

Now that's a good idea. TempleGhost, you should try that, see what kind of perturbations you can get. Can't hurt, and it might help you notice bugs and small variations easier than just using your arm (or finger.)
Also, have you submitted your design to your local patent office yet? I'd hate to see some faceless corporation with a huge R&D budget profit from your hard work whilst you labor in obscurity...

I feel a little arrogant, jumping into a discussion between two people who obviously know more than I about the subject, but I can't help it. It's too interesting. biggrin.gif
Empress Palpatine
I have been reading this book about Tesla lately, and this device somehow sounds similar to the sort of things he was doing. Does it relate in any way to anything he tried to do? This is no criticism, I am just curious. He seemed to inspire inventions over 100 years later.

Don't let happen to you what happened to him. He got robbed and ripped off alot. Rush to that patent office. Quick!
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 13 2007, 12:13 AM)
MeBigGuy, I think he might be able to set up an array of these, or move it's position to take a number of readings, like an MRI and get good 3d image. Unless, that is, I'm misunderstanding something.

Templeghost, two things.
1: You're gonna wind up with aUser posted image before all is said and done... I'd buy one.
2: Mind if I quote you elsewhere in this forum?

(I found this article when looking for that image. Nifty, t'aint it? biggrin.gif )

That is a familiar image! biggrin.gif How many times I watched the crew of the Enterprise land on some planet and use that to "see." Templeghost, do you think yours will ever be small enough to be handheld like that?

Templeghost, I have the distinct feeling you are one who knows a lot about all things electrical/magnetic. Speaking of fields that can be felt or used, I was reading just recently that Tesla had lights he made that he was using in his own lab that did not have to be plugged in. They drew their energy from a field he had all throughout the room. They were glass tubes with some sort of gas that could lite when a field was present. That sounds rather cool. Can you buy these today? It sounds like it would be great for an outdoor party where you do not want people tripping over wires in the grass. There is some device giving off the field and lots of individual lights sitting on tables, etc., possibly glowing exotic colors.

Templeghost, if your device came to market, what could I use it for? What could I see with it?
templeghost
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 13 2007, 04:13 AM)
I think he might be able to set up an array of these, or move it's position to take a number of readings, like an MRI and get good 3d image. Unless, that is, I'm misunderstanding something. Mind if I quote you elsewhere in this forum?

In the case of this system, just pushing the object being scanned through the scanning ring automatically creates 3D data, with each new frame being a 2-dimensional cross section of the 3-D shape. So it should be quite easy to build 3D views from the output video. As for qouting me, of course I don't mind. I might not always be right though! wink.gif

QUOTE
As I think more about it, I'd expect what he is showing at one side or the other, but I wouldn't expect a smooth transition between.


It moves along with the object being scanned, without fail. I should be specific here, in order to create a simple waveform such as this, I set the y variable to zero in order to continually scan across the x-axis, this way the waveform is much easier to view on an oscilloscope. No need to do this when viewing full frame video though.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As I think more about it, I'd expect what he is showing at one side or the other, but I wouldn't expect a smooth transition between.


It moves along with the object being scanned, without fail. I should be specific here, in order to create a simple waveform such as this, I set the y variable to zero in order to continually scan across the x-axis, this way the waveform is much easier to view on an oscilloscope. No need to do this when viewing full frame video though.

They were glass tubes with some sort of gas that could lite when a field was present. That sounds rather cool. Can you buy these today?


The closest thing I can think of is neon signs, they power them up with lots of voltage in order to make the neon glow. In the case of tesla using magnetic fields to do it, wow, he would need a ton of magnetic field strength, although some of the modern work on wireless and resonant magnetic fields could certainly help with this, there's nothing like that available that I am aware of.

QUOTE
Templeghost, if your device came to market, what could I use it for? What could I see with it?


Great question, I wish I knew, hehehe. In a classical sense, it should show pictures of magnetic permeability. Every element has a slightly different permeability, and as such a high power, high resolution system could show every element, molecule or neurotransmitter as a different color. More generally, my prototype is scanning much like a television, in order to display realtime video.

Imagine you could pick up the pole of a magnet and move it through the body in order to sense the output at each point, in many respects, this is exactly what the system is doing. Further to this, unlike other scanning techniques, this system is very sensitive to phase, and electronic structure, and should be very adept at showing the transition metals, and all manner of ionic interactions within the body.

Who knows? Maybe we are all arrayed with the Holy Spirit and there is a magnetic vector universe waiting to be discovered. That is what I like to think.

BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE
Maybe we are all arrayed with the Holy Spirit and there is a magnetic vector universe waiting to be discovered.

OooooOoOooooOoh... You're doing some inventing man, let's not get religion involved. (it smacks of crankery) No offense intended, it's just that that phrase rubbed me wrong... Unless of course, you meant that jokingly. smile.gif


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Maybe we are all arrayed with the Holy Spirit and there is a magnetic vector universe waiting to be discovered.

OooooOoOooooOoh... You're doing some inventing man, let's not get religion involved. (it smacks of crankery) No offense intended, it's just that that phrase rubbed me wrong... Unless of course, you meant that jokingly. smile.gif


It moves along with the object being scanned, without fail.

Really? I have trouble imagining that happening, it seems like the shape should break up or distort as it moves. But what do I know? Got a video camera? Think you could video tape that bit for us curious onlookers?

I keep wondering if maybe you could build a half-circle version somehow. I have no patience (and little expertise) to sit here and figure out whether you could, but I wonder...
Keep posting details, man biggrin.gif
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (templeghost+Nov 13 2007, 09:57 PM)




The closest thing I can think of is neon signs, they power them up with lots of voltage in order to make the neon glow. In the case of tesla using magnetic fields to do it, wow, he would need a ton of magnetic field strength, although some of the modern work on wireless and resonant magnetic fields could certainly help with this, there's nothing like that available that I am aware of.



Great question, I wish I knew, hehehe. In a classical sense, it should show pictures of magnetic permeability. Every element has a slightly different permeability, and as such a high power, high resolution system could show every element, molecule or neurotransmitter as a different color. More generally, my prototype is scanning much like a television, in order to display realtime video.

Imagine you could pick up the pole of a magnet and move it through the body in order to sense the output at each point, in many respects, this is exactly what the system is doing. Further to this, unlike other scanning techniques, this system is very sensitive to phase, and electronic structure, and should be very adept at showing the transition metals, and all manner of ionic interactions within the body.

Who knows? Maybe we are all arrayed with the Holy Spirit and there is a magnetic vector universe waiting to be discovered. That is what I like to think.

"He continued on around the block....With a sigh, he turned and walked toward his laboratory at 33-35 South Fifth Avenue (now West Broadway), near Bleecker Street.

Entering the familiar loft building in the darkness, he closed a master switch. Tube lighting on the walls sprang into brilliance, illuminating a shadowy cavern filled with weirdly shaped machinery. The strange thing about about this tube lighting was that it had no connections to the loops of electrical wiring around the ceiling. Indeed, it had no connections at all, drawing all its energy from the ambient force field. He could pick up an unattached light and move it freely to any part of the workshop." p. 20-21, TESLA: MAN OUT OF TIME by Margaret Cheney.

He must have had a lot of juice in that place.

I just saw a movie I got on DVD just a few days ago called "The Core." In the story, the earth's magnetic field quit. People went down in a ship that could blast its way through the earth to its core. They were going to set off nukes a certain way to get the flow going down deep in the earth to kick start the magnetic field back. The ship had a device that could see through rock and molten rock as they went down. Different colors indicated different substances and densities. That sounds sort of like your device. Did you see that movie?



templeghost
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 14 2007, 03:14 AM)
it seems like the shape should break up or distort as it moves. But what do I know? Got a video camera? Think you could video tape that bit for us curious onlookers?

You are quite right actually, it does distort it somewhat. My humble prototype is only able to resolve a relatively low res, but this shouldn't be an issue with 10 or 12 bit D/A convertors, and more magnetic field strength would help as well.

To the videotaping, absolutely. I am so close to having the entire system running now, I just need to take a journey for a few days to get some parts. I already have a video recorder setup such that I can record full screen video output. I don't have a camcorder, but the real output should be on the way, fingers crossed.

QUOTE
Tube lighting on the walls sprang into brilliance, illuminating a shadowy cavern filled with weirdly shaped machinery.


I raced off to do something, but while I was away I was thinking about something from my college days. One of the teachers said that if you take a flourescent tube outside on a dark night, and find some high voltage wires, if you hold it up while running under them you can get it to light up a little bit. I did happen to catch that movie a while back, cores, and magnetic fields eh?

Ahh well, I am ready for bed, and I may disappear for a little while to take care of some things and do some shopping around, but I will come back with some updates as soon as I can.


templeghost
Where I am staying there aren't any good electronic supply stores so I packed my bag and went off on a journey. First off, I travelled to the nearest 'city' which is a little place named after a rock. While I was waiting for my coach I went off for some lunch. It was a lovely day so I went out the back, and was eating my sandwich, when I spotted the upcoming movie which was staring at me, Golden Compass.

user posted image

When I grow tired, little signs like this give me a smile. In the middle of my travels I caught some buses up to the electronics area in Toronto. On my way I passed where I used to live, and I had a little chuckle at the name of the local mall, otherwise known at CenterPoint. When I first built my scanner I worked for a pool table manufacturer known as CenterSpot. It's just too funny! wink.gif

user posted image

Anyway, I had a big list of parts and did a bunch of shopping. For my video amp I decided to go with MAR-4 amplifiers. These little things have 50 ohm input and ouput impedance and offer around 8db gain per stage. With a good ground plane they perform really well, and I can cascade them to get the output voltage I require.

Along with amplifier parts, I needed a new genlock to sync all my computers. In my last round of testing the old PC power supply I was using finally gave up the ghost, and fried my genlock board amongst other things. I still had some empty genlock circuits, so I got some 74241 buffer chips, along with the various connectors and built a new genlock. Here is a pic of my overall setup:

user posted image

I originally did all this work back in 1999, so it has been a real challenge, but lots of fun, putting it all back together again. I have just finished putting together all the latest circuits and here you can see all the amplifier boards. The little genlock plugs in at the left, and you can see a ribbon cable connects it to the master sync computer. The amps plug into each other, and carry the sync signals to all the other computers which are running in parallel.

user posted image

Welcome to my wiring nightmare, hehehe. For the sake of simple testing, I am running just four transmitters in this setup. In order to adjust my transmitter amps, and the output amp, I lock the second channel of my oscilloscope to the master sync waveform so I can see a stable version of the output waveform:

user posted image

So, that's where I am at currently. The amp is working well and multiplies the voltage around 3 times for each stage. It looks like 3 or 4 stages will give a nice output signal. Theory says I should have a capacitor of around 12pF in parallel with my receiver coils, but I am still playing around with this, and the grounding.

Just yesterday I used a simple diode circuit to lay my output voltage onto my composite video, and it all seems pretty solid. So, here I go, I have to throw in some new agnus chips into my old amiga motherboards, and adjust the software a little bit to help the bootup situation.

But right now, my head needs a rest.....





templeghost
Yesterday I noticed some very interesting information regarding magnetic monopoles. Particulalry, that they may not appear as elementary 'systems' but rather as emergent particles, in a strongly interacting many-body system.

QUOTE
Electrically charged particles, such as the electron, are ubiquitous. By contrast, no elementary particles with a net magnetic charge have ever been observed, despite intensive and prolonged searches. We pursue an alternative strategy, namely that of realising them not as elementary but rather as emergent particles, i.e., as manifestations of the correlations present in a strongly interacting many-body system. The most prominent examples of emergent quasiparticles are the ones with fractional electric charge e/3 in quantum Hall physics. Here we show that magnetic monopoles do emerge in a class of exotic magnets known collectively as spin ice: the dipole moment of the underlying electronic degrees of freedom fractionalises into monopoles. This enables us to account for a mysterious phase transition observed experimentally in spin ice in a magnetic field, which is a liquid-gas transition of the magnetic monopoles. These monopoles can also be detected by other means, e.g., in an experiment modelled after the celebrated Stanford magnetic monopole search.


magnetic monopoles in spin ice

Over the holidays I have taken a break from my work, but perhaps I have some new incentive with these developments. Are there any very smart people who could help apply their mathematical approach to emergent magnetic monopoles to the geometry of my scanner?

NeoNo.1
You are most probably closer to the truth than what you realize. smile.gif
templeghost
QUOTE (NeoNo.1+Jan 6 2008, 08:52 PM)
You are most probably closer to the truth than what you realize.

Hi Neo, have you ever taken a moment to look back on the things you write and think in order to consider the spirit of what you were saying?

In some cases, perhaps we are talking to ourselves. Consider the points I have been making from the very start of this thread, was I always suggesting the nature of the system I am presenting?

QUOTE
great understanding of the implications of magnetic monopoles

a rigorous attempt at calculating the magnetic vector potentials would seem worthy of investigation

the magnetic poles, when propagating through space, would form a vertical void in the center

magic which is waiting to be discovered

a unique effect is generated at the center when we scroll the magnetic vectors by varying the currents

we need to investigate how the magnetic vector potentials really behave given the geometry of the system

we are really getting to the heart of the matter here

the magnetic vectors are pointing the northern magnetic pole at our centrally located raster scanning point

they are solving the riddle of the pole in the middle

pick up the pole of a magnet and move it through the body in order to sense the output at each point

apply their mathematical approach to emergent magnetic monopoles


In retrospect, it seems very obvious. Surely the soul and the spirit thereof is always telling us the truth, and trying to help us find our way. No doubt our fate will find a way. wink.gif

NeoNo.1
QUOTE (templeghost+Oct 15 2007, 07:23 AM)
I must take a moment to thank everyone who took the time to consider this system and offer some thoughts on it thus far. As a poet might say, an angel of heaven is playing his fiddle, they are solving the riddle of the pole in the middle.

If we really want to conquer the beast as it were, we need a consistent and solid approach. In order to implement the system, there are many paths we can take. There are readily available video technologies which can help to produce our waveforms, and in a general sense, our design requirements are concerned with the identical coils, amplifiers, and the display and recording sections of the overall system.

We must ensure that all of our transmitter coils are identical. I used a circuit board approach to guarantee this, however, a talented transformer winder could ensure the correct configuration by carefully wrapping the dual coil transmitters on X shaped structures. Saint Andrews type crosses, or Xbox 360 like spheres with hollowed out grooves, could serve as ideal structures which guarantee a common origin.

If we consider the system in digital terms, we end up with 8 or 16 video pictures with dual-channel waveforms. For instance, if the dual-coil transmitters are driven by the red and blue channels of a video memory, then we can picture the required gradient fields as seen on a monitor:

user posted image

The circled area represents the actual scanning area, and in practice the circle should be scaled to the maximum size on the monitor, with the remaining areas appearing black. In terms of software to derive our driving waveforms, we need to consider the distance of the transmitter to the center spot, and the angle of separation of the dual-coil transmitters. Given these parameters we can solve for every point in the scanning area considering our driving requirements. The vector sum must remain the same:

user posted image

And the angle can be readily deduced using standard trigonometry:

User posted image

If we are constructing any given digital system, we only need to solve the driving waveforms once. For each additional transmitter pair we can rotate the central scanning image through 45 degrees, at least in the case of eight pairs, in order to generate the ideal waveforms for the next transmitter pair. Considering this, a system running multiple video cards could simply load the appropriate bitmap images in order to drive the system. Given this design philosophy, panning and zooming becomes as simple as loading different bitmaps based on user input.

Considering the various video technologies available, we have numerous options. Because AGA based Amiga computers can run from an external master clock, XCLK, and video sync signals, it becomes a trivial matter to design amplifiers and coils to match with the required frequencies. In this case the system could enjoy at least 6 bit resolution, and with clever programming, 8 bit+ is possible for each transmitter pair. Alternatively, modern pioneer DVD players can run from an external sync, and as such the chrominance and luminance signals could carry the required synchronised video waveforms.

Moreover, modern RAMDAC chips could easily be assembled on a single PCI slot such that they all run from the same sync signals. With this being the case, the very best in digital to analog conversion could achieve incredible resolution, with 10, or even 12 bits per channel. Due to the vector sums, we can map the output such that we exceed the apparent resolution of a single D/A convertor. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, some ATI video cards, such as the All-In-Wonder-Pro, can genlock their video signal with an external video source. As such, a computer running multiple cards could readily offer the ability to drive many 8 bit waveforms.

With a little work you could have a computer before you driving 16 magnetic coils which scroll a magnetic pole through space in real time. I have given of a radical concept, but in addition, I have provided multiple practical systems whereby you can test and verify the given concept. If anyone should have 7 amiga 1200 computers, I would be happy to work with you and demonstrate the system, or even provide the required genlock, amplifiers and scanning ring at no cost such that you can investigate the nature of magnetic vectors and the system at hand.

Very good.... Very god indeedie! It reminds me of the Greek Spiral... are they related?
templeghost
QUOTE (templeghost+Oct 30 2007, 06:34 AM)
an online waveform calculator so that everyone can follow along, and replicate my results.

One of the most vital points in designing this system is deriving equations for calculating the angle each transmitter must point for each and every pixel in the display. In general, we need to know the location of each transmitter in terms of pixels. So long as we know this, we can use a simple delta-y/delta-x formula to calculate the slope to every point in the raster scanning area.

Given these design considerations, I have developed an online waveform calculator in order to automatically produce vector lookup tables which give the correct coil currents for every possible slope within the scanning circle. Given these tables, we can simply calculate our delta-y/delta-x slope and then find the required currents in our lookup table. 90 degree dual coil transmitters require one table, the 45 degree transmitters require a different table.

In addition to automated lookup table software, I have included some subroutines which demonstrate the various formulas and methodologies. If you have been following along, you may notice the most complex formula in the code was derived at the beginning of this thread.

In the dual coil parameter form you will notice two variables, slope multiplier and slope constant. Left alone the program will display the standard slope output. If we want, we can adjust these variables in order to move our slope data into an unsigned integer data space, which can be very beneficial when writing the video display software.

In short, I have taken the design philosophy from my original paperwork and translated it into an online program in order to generate ideal vector current lookup data for any given scanner configuration. As it stands, the software is designed to deal with 8 transmitter configurations:

Magnetic Vector Imaging Software

More updates coming soon...


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