The Higgs And Standard Model

Maxila

20th June 2012 - 08:30 PM

I was surprised when I read this today:

"The biggest drawback of the Higgs boson is that so far no evidence of its existence has been found. Instead a fair amount of indirect evidence already suggest the elusive particle does not exist. Indeed, modern theoretical physics is constantly filling the vacuum with so many contraptions such as the Higgs boson that is amazing a person can even see the stars on a clear night! Although future accelerators may well find direct evidence of the Higgs boson and show that motivations for postulating its existence are correct, I believe things will not be so simple. I must point out this does not mean the entire standard model is wrong. Rather, the standard model is only an approximation - albeit a good one - of reality."

This was a paragraph, of an excerpt, published in the July, 2012 issue of Scientific American, page 70. The article published chosen excerpts by Nobel winners in physics. The author of this excerpt was Martinus J. G. Veltman who shared the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1999 together with Gerard 't Hooft, "for elucidating the quantum structure of electroweak interactions in physics".

His direct comments about the standard model are not what I found meaningful, rather that people here (with little credentials) often post their views on these same things with passionate absoluteness; while a noble winner in physics would maintain a more open mind. The latter, is a beneficial trait that should transcends scientific models to all human thinking.

Maxila

synthsin75

21st June 2012 - 12:02 AM

Many here expressed doubts about finding the Higgs boson, myself included, and it was no real surprise for many. That specific mechanism was not a crucial part of the standard model, although we still need to find some alternative.

brucep

21st June 2012 - 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 20 2012, 08:30 PM)

I was surprised when I read this today:

"The biggest drawback of the Higgs boson is that so far no evidence of its existence has been found. Instead a fair amount of indirect evidence already suggest the elusive particle does not exist. Indeed, modern theoretical physics is constantly filling the vacuum with so many contraptions such as the Higgs boson that is amazing a person can even see the stars on a clear night! Although future accelerators may well find direct evidence of the Higgs boson and show that motivations for postulating its existence are correct, I believe things will not be so simple. I must point out this does not mean the entire standard model is wrong. Rather, the standard model is only an approximation - albeit a good one - of reality."

This was a paragraph, of an excerpt, published in the July, 2012 issue of Scientific American, page 70. The article published chosen excerpts by Nobel winners in physics. The author of this excerpt was Martinus J. G. Veltman who shared the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1999 together with Gerard 't Hooft, "for elucidating the quantum structure of electroweak interactions in physics".

His direct comments about the standard model are not what I found meaningful, rather that people here (with little credentials) often post their views on these same things with passionate absoluteness; while a noble winner in physics would maintain a more open mind. The latter, is a beneficial trait that should transcends scientific models to all human thinking.

Maxila

People who understand the subject matter support theoretical models which have empirical confirmation. He's no more open minded than I am about the physics. People like you are closed minded about the subject matter because you don't know any of the physics and don't intend to learn any in the near future. When you first joined you told me your ideas where going to revolutionize relativity theory. That's your disconnect with reality. Thinking you can revolutionize a theory you don't even understand. I view your comments as an extended 'whine'. His comments speak the truth at this point in the experiment to try to find the Higgs.

waitedavid137

21st June 2012 - 04:06 AM

QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 20 2012, 01:30 PM)

I was surprised when I read this today:
"The biggest drawback of the Higgs boson ...indirect evidence already suggest the elusive particle does not exist. ...the standard model is only an approximation - albeit a good one - of reality."
... people here... often post their views on these same things with passionate absoluteness...

Someone here posted that the Higgs absolutely exists and will be found? Who? Where?

Maxila

21st June 2012 - 06:13 PM

QUOTE (brucep+Jun 20 2012, 09:14 PM)

When you first joined you told me your ideas where going to revolutionize relativity theory.

This is a common trait of humanity that disturbs me the most; remembering, using, and distorting events to suit their views and arguments, while sincerely believing their distorted arguments to be , current, true, and valid.

What you attributed to me above is no different than a person who says "there is no scientific proof of global warming", or "there is no scientific proof for evolution". I don't know and I don't care how you came up with the comment. I do know it is either completely made-up or distorted out context to suit your own self-important arguments; and I am sure you believe your own crap, just like the creationist believes there is no proof of evolution and they’ll refuse to believe it even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

To set the record straight, when I first joined I was overly excited regarding the thoughts I posted about; however I kept an "open mind" to the criticisms I received. I accepted those critiques and realized the thoughts were only ideas to investigate. That is where they have remained regulated as I have methodically learned and considered them to an increasingly wider array of physics and attempted a few simple mathematical expressions of them.

Although my ideas are in regard to a proven, sound, accurate theory; the worst that will happen is I’ll continue to learn the theory better, and develop an even greater respect for it as I investigate them. If you had any real clue or understanding what I have been doing since those early posts, you wouldn't post that deluded drivel.

You on the other hand continually project your personal shortcomings, often in factually and contextually distorted arguments like the one above, as any zealot does on a single minded mission. It is that myopic vision and the inability to grow beyond it, which limits learning, comprehension, and constructive communication. It holds people back and slows progress, as per the implied point in my original post.

Maxila

Maxila

21st June 2012 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE (waitedavid137+Jun 20 2012, 11:06 PM)

Someone here posted that the Higgs absolutely exists and will be found? Who? Where?

I was referring to the latter part of the excerpt that was related to the Higgs existence:

QUOTE

"I must point out this does not mean the entire standard model is wrong. Rather, the standard model is only an approximation - albeit a good one - of reality."

For the record, I don't recall anyone here explicitly posting the Higgs absolutely existed.

Maxila

synthsin75

21st June 2012 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 21 2012, 12:13 PM)

To set the record straight, when I first joined I was overly excited regarding the thoughts I posted about; however I kept an "open mind" to the criticisms I received. I accepted those critiques and realized the thoughts were only ideas to investigate. That is where they have remained regulated as I have methodically learned and considered them to an increasingly wider array of physics and attempted a few simple mathematical expressions of them.

Your ideas have not "remained regulated", as you have relied on the support of cranks to justify refuting valid science.

waitedavid137

22nd June 2012 - 03:35 AM

QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 21 2012, 11:41 AM)

I was referring to the latter part of the excerpt that was related to the Higgs existence:

For the record, I don't recall anyone here explicitly posting the Higgs absolutely existed.

Maxila

You said

QUOTE

I was surprised when I read this today:
"The biggest drawback of the Higgs boson ...indirect evidence already suggest the elusive particle does not exist. ...the standard model is only an approximation - albeit a good one - of reality."
... people here... often post their views on these same things with passionate absoluteness...

You shouldn't have said these same things if you didn't mean it.

brucep

22nd June 2012 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE (Maxila+Jun 21 2012, 06:13 PM)

This is a common trait of humanity that disturbs me the most; remembering, using, and distorting events to suit their views and arguments, while sincerely believing their distorted arguments to be , current, true, and valid.

What you attributed to me above is no different than a person who says "there is no scientific proof of global warming", or "there is no scientific proof for evolution". I don't know and I don't care how you came up with the comment. I do know it is either completely made-up or distorted out context to suit your own self-important arguments; and I am sure you believe your own crap, just like the creationist believes there is no proof of evolution and they’ll refuse to believe it even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

To set the record straight, when I first joined I was overly excited regarding the thoughts I posted about; however I kept an "open mind" to the criticisms I received. I accepted those critiques and realized the thoughts were only ideas to investigate. That is where they have remained regulated as I have methodically learned and considered them to an increasingly wider array of physics and attempted a few simple mathematical expressions of them.

Although my ideas are in regard to a proven, sound, accurate theory; the worst that will happen is I’ll continue to learn the theory better, and develop an even greater respect for it as I investigate them. If you had any real clue or understanding what I have been doing since those early posts, you wouldn't post that deluded drivel.

You on the other hand continually project your personal shortcomings, often in factually and contextually distorted arguments like the one above, as any zealot does on a single minded mission. It is that myopic vision and the inability to grow beyond it, which limits learning, comprehension, and constructive communication. It holds people back and slows progress, as per the implied point in my original post.

Maxila

I distorted the events. Really? From making relativity more useful by modeling space as an elastic medium to trying to show that time isn't real natural phenomena. A scientifically useless opinion whether it's true or not. When people do crap like trying to 'makeover something they don't understand to start with' rather than getting up to speed with the literature really disturbs and pisses me off.

Maxila

22nd June 2012 - 04:03 PM

QUOTE (brucep+Jun 22 2012, 03:03 AM)

I distorted the events. Really? From making relativity more useful by modeling space as an elastic medium to trying to show that time isn't real natural phenomena. A scientifically useless opinion whether it's true or not. When people do crap like trying to 'makeover something they don't understand to start with' rather than getting up to speed with the literature really disturbs and pisses me off.

Again you post meaningless drivel because of personal deficiencies. The forums are polluted with many such posts by you and others with this type defensive garbage, void of any constructive scientific content.

I fool myself into believing this post may help convince others to post more in a spirit of constructive dialogue; I know better, making me guilty of wasting this space for my own benefit too. Perhaps our foolishness adds entertainment benefit to some, but that shouldn't be the main discourse when reading posts in a science forum.

Maxila

P.S. A man I knew and respected, now long gone, used have the following saying up on the wall in his office. When approaching a task I often try to keep its meaning in mind:

"When you are up to your azz in alligators, it can be easy to forget your objective is to drain the swamp"

In other words, keep your purpose and objectives in mind and continue working towards them, even though it can be easy and often understandable to get distracted and go off track.

Maxila

22nd June 2012 - 04:45 PM

QUOTE (waitedavid137+Jun 21 2012, 10:35 PM)

You said

You shouldn't have said these same things if you didn't mean it.

After I said, "I was surprised when I read this today", was not my comments, rather it was a paragraph of the article excerpt I quoted. In my last paragraph I clarified my point in referring to others view of the standard model and I did not mention the Higgs. I thought it might be taken too out of context if I only quoted the last sentence without the entire paragraph.

Reading it quickly I can see how one might infer I was specifically talking about the existence of the Higgs, for the record I was not.

Maxila

HenisDov

13th July 2012 - 08:42 AM

Eppur Si Muove, Higgs Particle YOK
Regardless Of Whatever Whoever

Regardless Of Whatever Is Said By Whoever Says It -
Higgs Particle YOK.

S Hawking is simply wrong in accepting it. Obviously wrong.
Everyone who accepts the story of the Higgs particle is simply wrong.
Plain commonsense.
Singularity and the Big Bang MUST have happened with the smallest base universe particles, the gravitons, that MUST be both energy and mass, even if they are inert mass just one smallest fraction of a second at singularity. All mass formats evolve from gravitons that convert into energy i.e. extricate from their gravitons clusters into mass formats in motion, energy. And they all end up again as mass in a repeat singularity.
Universe expansion and re-contraction proceed simultaneously..

Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
http://universe-life.com/2012/02/03/univer...fe-compilation/
===========================
Refresh Some Comprehensions...

Who Suppresses Science Creativity? Academia Suppresses Creativity?

Again and again, ad absurdum:
Since the 1920s Science is suppressed by a Technology Culture, tightly supervised by a religious old style trade union , AAAS…

Liberate Your Mind From Concepts Dictated By Religious Trade-Union AAAS:

USA Science? Re-Comprehend Origins And Essence

* Higgs Particle? Dark Energy/Matter? Epigenetics? All YOK!

* Earth-life is just another, self-replicating, mass format.

* All mass formats evolve from gravitons, the primal universe mass-energy particles.

* Since singularity gravitons are extricated from their big-bang clusters , become energy, at a constant rate.

* All mass formats follow natural selection, i.e. intake of energy or their energy taken in by other mass formats.

* Evolution Is The Quantum Mechanics Of Natural Selection.

* Quantum mechanics are mechanisms, possible or probable or actual mechanisms of natural selection.

* Life’s Evolution is the quantum mechanics of biology.

* Every evolution, of all disciplines, is the quantum mechanics of the discipline’s natural selection.

See:
Update Concepts-Comprehension…
http://universe-life.com/2011/12/13/21st-c...ce-and-whither/
Earth life genesis from aromaticity-H bonding
http://universe-life.com/2011/09/30/earthl...icityh-bonding/
Universe-Energy-Mass-Life Compilation
http://universe-life.com/2012/02/03/univer...fe-compilation/
Seed of human-chimp genome diversity
http://universe-life.com/2011/07/10/seed-o...omes-diversity/
New Era For Science Including Genomics
http://universe-life.com/2012/04/14/new-er...uding-genomics/

Dov Henis
(comments from 22nd century)

brucep

13th July 2012 - 10:07 AM

QUOTE (HenisDov+Jul 13 2012, 08:42 AM)

Eppur Si Muove, Higgs Particle YOK
Regardless Of Whatever Whoever

Regardless Of Whatever Is Said By Whoever Says It -
Higgs Particle YOK.

S Hawking is simply wrong in accepting it. Obviously wrong.
Everyone who accepts the story of the Higgs particle is simply wrong.
Plain commonsense.
Singularity and the Big Bang MUST have happened with the smallest base universe particles, the gravitons, that MUST be both energy and mass, even if they are inert mass just one smallest fraction of a second at singularity. All mass formats evolve from gravitons that convert into energy i.e. extricate from their gravitons clusters into mass formats in motion, energy. And they all end up again as mass in a repeat singularity.
Universe expansion and re-contraction proceed simultaneously..

Dov Henis (comments from 22nd century)
http://universe-life.com/
http://universe-life.com/2012/02/03/univer...fe-compilation/
===========================
Refresh Some Comprehensions...

Who Suppresses Science Creativity? Academia Suppresses Creativity?

Again and again, ad absurdum:
Since the 1920s Science is suppressed by a Technology Culture, tightly supervised by a religious old style trade union , AAAS…

Liberate Your Mind From Concepts Dictated By Religious Trade-Union AAAS:

USA Science? Re-Comprehend Origins And Essence

* Higgs Particle? Dark Energy/Matter? Epigenetics? All YOK!

* Earth-life is just another, self-replicating, mass format.

* All mass formats evolve from gravitons, the primal universe mass-energy particles.

* Since singularity gravitons are extricated from their big-bang clusters , become energy, at a constant rate.

* All mass formats follow natural selection, i.e. intake of energy or their energy taken in by other mass formats.

* Evolution Is The Quantum Mechanics Of Natural Selection.

* Quantum mechanics are mechanisms, possible or probable or actual mechanisms of natural selection.

* Life’s Evolution is the quantum mechanics of biology.

* Every evolution, of all disciplines, is the quantum mechanics of the discipline’s natural selection.

See:
Update Concepts-Comprehension…
http://universe-life.com/2011/12/13/21st-c...ce-and-whither/
Earth life genesis from aromaticity-H bonding
http://universe-life.com/2011/09/30/earthl...icityh-bonding/
Universe-Energy-Mass-Life Compilation
http://universe-life.com/2012/02/03/univer...fe-compilation/
Seed of human-chimp genome diversity
http://universe-life.com/2011/07/10/seed-o...omes-diversity/
New Era For Science Including Genomics
http://universe-life.com/2012/04/14/new-er...uding-genomics/

Dov Henis
(comments from 22nd century)

You're simply full of bullshit.

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