If you believe in biblical texts, you believe the end of the world will come as we know it when certain things are fulfilled, like all nations turning against Israel. Doesn't having this kind of belief encourage people (especially religiously motivated people) to make sure that comes about?
If I wanted to prove the bible is true, the best way is for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel. The again Israel could use this as a threat to try stop the world from turning against them, regardless of what they do? Does the bible motivate this, or is it just coincidence?
Even if only on a subconscious level, do predictions such as those contained in Revelations, not cause us to follow that alleged destiny? And maybe if said book was not believed, and proven to be nonsense, then at least that element will be removed from our psyche.
We would be liberated from an oppresive dictator, that tries to dictate what our destinies are, and even if those events occur regardless, at least we would feel somewhat in control of our own lives. Or is that fear mankind has struggled with for so long? That we are in control of our own lives. And maybe mankinds fear of that and the burden of responsibility it brings, caused man to create religion instead? It is always easier to have someone else to blame, but yourself.
Ah...another baiting thread...
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
If you believe in biblical texts, you believe the end of the world will come as we know it when certain things are fulfilled, like all nations turning against Israel. Doesn't having this kind of belief encourage people (especially religiously motivated people) to make sure that comes about?
"The end of the world", according to the Bible, has to do with a lot more than just nations turning against Israel. In fact, "the end of the world", according to the Bible, won't even occur until more than 1000 years after this. Not only that, but "the end of the world" involves many supernatural occurences that could never be manufactured by men. You're not off to a very good start.
"The end of the world", according to the Bible, has to do with a lot more than just nations turning against Israel. In fact, "the end of the world", according to the Bible, won't even occur until more than 1000 years after this. Not only that, but "the end of the world" involves many supernatural occurences that could never be manufactured by men. You're not off to a very good start.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
If I wanted to prove the bible is true, the best way is for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel. The again Israel could use this as a threat to try stop the world from turning against them, regardless of what they do? Does the bible motivate this, or is it just coincidence?
It's neither..it's just a ridiculous question. Turn on the TV or open a newspaper. When you've finished, let us know how many of Israel's enemies follow the Bible or even believe in it.
It's neither..it's just a ridiculous question. Turn on the TV or open a newspaper. When you've finished, let us know how many of Israel's enemies follow the Bible or even believe in it.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
Even if only on a subconscious level, do predictions such as those contained in Revelations, not cause us to follow that alleged destiny? And maybe if said book was not believed, and proven to be nonsense, then at least that element will be removed from our psyche.
Pssstttttt..."the alleged destiny" of those who will come against Israel isn't too good, either...in case you haven't heard. Like I said, a ridiculous question.
Pssstttttt..."the alleged destiny" of those who will come against Israel isn't too good, either...in case you haven't heard. Like I said, a ridiculous question.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
We would be liberated from an oppresive dictator, that tries to dictate what our destinies are, and even if those events occur regardless, at least we would feel somewhat in control of our own lives.
Come on...rpenner's not THAT bad.
[Moderator: The hell I ain't!]
Come on...rpenner's not THAT bad.
[Moderator: The hell I ain't!]
Let's see who makes more sense. newguy or fred. I'd say newguy wins.
QUOTE (rpenner+)
[Moderator: The hell I ain't!]
Now you did it.
You mentioned "hell" (in red, no less).
soundhertz enters with his soapbox, stage left (I couldn't bring myself to say "right")...
Now you did it.
You mentioned "hell" (in red, no less).
soundhertz enters with his soapbox, stage left (I couldn't bring myself to say "right")...
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
Let's see who makes more sense. newguy or fred. I'd say newguy wins.
I'm not competing against "fred" or anyone else, for that matter. Actually, I only nibbled the bait because I saw this as a possible opportunity to clear up some popular misconceptions regarding Israel in relation to what the Bible actually teaches as opposed to some common beliefs that have no scriptural support. Anyhow, we'll see how this goes...if it goes at all.
I'm not competing against "fred" or anyone else, for that matter. Actually, I only nibbled the bait because I saw this as a possible opportunity to clear up some popular misconceptions regarding Israel in relation to what the Bible actually teaches as opposed to some common beliefs that have no scriptural support. Anyhow, we'll see how this goes...if it goes at all.
Deleted. Off topic.
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
It upsets some people when things don't fit into their imaginary little boxes.
Shhhhhhh...it upsets them even more when you remind them of their "imaginary little boxes"...
Come on...!!!
You deleted it?!?
I was just about to have some fun...
Shhhhhhh...it upsets them even more when you remind them of their "imaginary little boxes"...
Come on...!!!
You deleted it?!?
I was just about to have some fun...
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 01:20 AM)
You deleted it?!?
I guess it is just too easy. The hypocrisy here is sometimes so stunning I make a comment, and upon reflection delete it.
I guess it is just too easy. The hypocrisy here is sometimes so stunning I make a comment, and upon reflection delete it.
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
I guess it is just too easy. The hypocrisy here is sometimes so stunning I make a comment, and upon reflection delete it.
Understood, but I have reasons why I wish you had let those particular comments stand. In other words, I could have easily used some of the info that you relayed to make a case for my aforementioned "common beliefs that have no scriptural basis" in regards to the US being such an "ally" of Israel. There's a reason for that and it's a great misuse of scripture...
Understood, but I have reasons why I wish you had let those particular comments stand. In other words, I could have easily used some of the info that you relayed to make a case for my aforementioned "common beliefs that have no scriptural basis" in regards to the US being such an "ally" of Israel. There's a reason for that and it's a great misuse of scripture...
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 01:32 AM)
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
I guess it is just too easy. The hypocrisy here is sometimes so stunning I make a comment, and upon reflection delete it.
Understood, but I have reasons why I wish you had let those particular comments stand. In other words, I could have easily used some of the info that you relayed to make a case for my aforementioned "common beliefs that have no scriptural basis" in regards to the US being such an "ally" of Israel. There's a reason for that and it's a great misuse of scripture...
Understood. Israel has found its greatest supporters among American Christians. Nixon was probably the staunchest supporter of Israel.
Understood, but I have reasons why I wish you had let those particular comments stand. In other words, I could have easily used some of the info that you relayed to make a case for my aforementioned "common beliefs that have no scriptural basis" in regards to the US being such an "ally" of Israel. There's a reason for that and it's a great misuse of scripture...
Understood. Israel has found its greatest supporters among American Christians. Nixon was probably the staunchest supporter of Israel.
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
Israel has found its greatest supporters among American Christians.
That's the point. Many of these "American Christians" are believing things that are actually contrary to scripture and therefore giving such support. Anyhow, I've addressed some of that in the past.
That's the point. Many of these "American Christians" are believing things that are actually contrary to scripture and therefore giving such support. Anyhow, I've addressed some of that in the past.
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
Nixon was probably the staunchest supporter of Israel.
In his particular case, it very well may have been for strictly political reasons. At least that's the opinion of Abe Foxman from the ADL. He views Nixon as an anti-Semite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XekEkXDs6Ks
In his particular case, it very well may have been for strictly political reasons. At least that's the opinion of Abe Foxman from the ADL. He views Nixon as an anti-Semite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XekEkXDs6Ks
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 01:54 AM)
In his particular case, it very well may have been for strictly political reasons. At least that's the opinion of Abe Foxman from the ADL. He views Nixon as an anti-Semite.
I don't know how his support for Israel would have helped him politically. But anyway I choose that example for the very reasons you cited. He did have the reputation you referred to.
I don't know how his support for Israel would have helped him politically. But anyway I choose that example for the very reasons you cited. He did have the reputation you referred to.
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 8 2011, 10:10 PM)
Ah...another baiting thread...
It wasn't a baiting thread, and was not directed exclusively at you. You obviously suffer from egotistical paranoia.
It wasn't a baiting thread, and was not directed exclusively at you. You obviously suffer from egotistical paranoia.
QUOTE
"The end of the world", according to the Bible, has to do with a lot more than just nations turning against Israel. In fact, "the end of the world", according to the Bible, won't even occur until more than 1000 years after this. Not only that, but "the end of the world" involves many supernatural occurrences that could never be manufactured by men. You're not off to a very good start.
I said certain things had to occur, the nations of the world turning against Israel is one of those, unless I am incorrect on that. What does it matter if it is 1000 years after or ten, it is "PART" of the prophecy.QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "The end of the world", according to the Bible, has to do with a lot more than just nations turning against Israel. In fact, "the end of the world", according to the Bible, won't even occur until more than 1000 years after this. Not only that, but "the end of the world" involves many supernatural occurrences that could never be manufactured by men. You're not off to a very good start. |
I said certain things had to occur, the nations of the world turning against Israel is one of those, unless I am incorrect on that. What does it matter if it is 1000 years after or ten, it is "PART" of the prophecy.
It's neither..it's just a ridiculous question. Turn on the TV or open a newspaper. When you've finished, let us know how many of Israel's enemies follow the Bible or even believe in it.
It's neither..it's just a ridiculous question. Turn on the TV or open a newspaper. When you've finished, let us know how many of Israel's enemies follow the Bible or even believe in it.
It's not Israels enemies that will turn on her, they already have, it's Israels Allies that will turn on her according to revelations. And if I am not mistaken, it says "ALL" nations will turn against Israel. This could only be achieved through The United Nations, and clearly they are becoming more intolerant of Israel by the day. If it weren't for the US with its veto power, things would be a lot different today.
The point of the post, which seemed to evade you, is whether or not , consciously or subconsciously these predictions in the bible effect how politicians act toward Israeli. I don't know the answer, which is why I asked the question.
I had a girlfriend who was a staunch believer in clairvoyants. She would go at least once a month and be told her alleged future. I noticed over the years that the decisions she made, actually directed her toward a lot of the predictions the soothsayer had told her. Not all, but some. This is the point of the statement I am making, is whether or not religious belief consciously or subconsciously effects our decision making. If the answer is yes, then biblical predictions will ultimately come true. If the answer is no, then biblical predictions will only come true if god exists and the predictions are true.
The point of the post, which seemed to evade you, is whether or not , consciously or subconsciously these predictions in the bible effect how politicians act toward Israeli. I don't know the answer, which is why I asked the question.
QUOTE
Pssstttttt..."the alleged destiny" of those who will come against Israel isn't too good, either...in case you haven't heard. Like I said, a ridiculous question.
Thats if you believe in the bibles prediction. That's why you think it is a silly question.I had a girlfriend who was a staunch believer in clairvoyants. She would go at least once a month and be told her alleged future. I noticed over the years that the decisions she made, actually directed her toward a lot of the predictions the soothsayer had told her. Not all, but some. This is the point of the statement I am making, is whether or not religious belief consciously or subconsciously effects our decision making. If the answer is yes, then biblical predictions will ultimately come true. If the answer is no, then biblical predictions will only come true if god exists and the predictions are true.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Apr 8 2011, 11:51 PM)
Let's see who makes more sense. newguy or fred. I'd say newguy wins.
Only someone who partakes in pissing contests would make such a remark. Who cares who is right or wrong, makes more sense or doesn't. We are here to learn not to preach.
Only someone who partakes in pissing contests would make such a remark. Who cares who is right or wrong, makes more sense or doesn't. We are here to learn not to preach.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
It wasn't a baiting thread...
Really? It began with:
Really? It began with:
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
If you believe in biblical texts...
How many atheists or agnostics "believe in Biblical texts", especially those related to the end of the world?
How many atheists or agnostics "believe in Biblical texts", especially those related to the end of the world?
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
...and was not directed exclusively at you.
Who said anything about "exclusivity"? Certainly not me. It was, however, aimed at those who believe in Biblical texts. Your own words betray you.
Who said anything about "exclusivity"? Certainly not me. It was, however, aimed at those who believe in Biblical texts. Your own words betray you.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
You obviously suffer from egotistical paranoia.
Nah, you're just dishonest.
Nah, you're just dishonest.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
I said certain things had to occur, the nations of the world turning against Israel is one of those, unless I am incorrect on that. What does it matter if it is 1000 years after or ten, it is "PART" of the prophecy.
It matters greatly because you were talking about "the end of the world" and not just Israel's demise. As I said, "the end of the world" involves many supernatural occurences that could not possibly be manufactured by men. One such occurence would be the actual return of Jesus Christ to establish the kingdom of God here on earth. You know, His coming on the clouds and all that.
It matters greatly because you were talking about "the end of the world" and not just Israel's demise. As I said, "the end of the world" involves many supernatural occurences that could not possibly be manufactured by men. One such occurence would be the actual return of Jesus Christ to establish the kingdom of God here on earth. You know, His coming on the clouds and all that.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
It's not Israels enemies that will turn on her, they already have, it's Israels Allies that will turn on her according to revelations. And if I am not mistaken, it says "ALL" nations will turn against Israel. This could only be achieved through The United Nations, and clearly they are becoming more intolerant of Israel by the day. If it weren't for the US with its veto power, things would be a lot different today.
The point of the post, which seemed to evade you, is whether or not , consciously or subconsciously these predictions in the bible effect how politicians act toward Israeli. I don't know the answer, which is why I asked the question.
Why are "the United Nations..becoming more and more intolerant of Israel by the day"? Because of either conscious or subconscious "belief" in Biblical texts? It might interest you to know that not everyone is an active member of the United Nations. From what I understand, Kosovo, Taiwan AND THE VATICAN are not. Ah, THE VATICAN...let's not forget THE VATICAN in our "conspiracy theories", okay? Also, the United States' "vetoing power" aside, if you truly understood the aforementioned "Biblical texts", then you would understand that the good ole USA is actually one of Israel's greatest enemies (in spite of evidence that would seem to say otherwise).
The point of the post, which seemed to evade you, is whether or not , consciously or subconsciously these predictions in the bible effect how politicians act toward Israeli. I don't know the answer, which is why I asked the question.
Why are "the United Nations..becoming more and more intolerant of Israel by the day"? Because of either conscious or subconscious "belief" in Biblical texts? It might interest you to know that not everyone is an active member of the United Nations. From what I understand, Kosovo, Taiwan AND THE VATICAN are not. Ah, THE VATICAN...let's not forget THE VATICAN in our "conspiracy theories", okay? Also, the United States' "vetoing power" aside, if you truly understood the aforementioned "Biblical texts", then you would understand that the good ole USA is actually one of Israel's greatest enemies (in spite of evidence that would seem to say otherwise).
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
Thats if you believe in the bibles prediction. That's why you think it is a silly question.
The whole premise of YOUR "conspiracy theory" rests upon "belief in the Bible's predictions" so it is a silly (I said ridiculous, by the way) question. That same "belief in the Bible's predictions" doesn't bode too well for those who come against Israel.
The whole premise of YOUR "conspiracy theory" rests upon "belief in the Bible's predictions" so it is a silly (I said ridiculous, by the way) question. That same "belief in the Bible's predictions" doesn't bode too well for those who come against Israel.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
I had a girlfriend who was a staunch believer in clairvoyants. She would go at least once a month and be told her alleged future. I noticed over the years that the decisions she made, actually directed her toward a lot of the predictions the soothsayer had told her. Not all, but some. This is the point of the statement I am making, is whether or not religious belief consciously or subconsciously effects our decision making. If the answer is yes, then biblical predictions will ultimately come true. If the answer is no, then biblical predictions will only come true if god exists and the predictions are true.
I know of quite a number of people who believe that they evolved from apelike ancestors. I've noticed that their beliefs ofttimes cause them to behave as apes. Any connection there?
I know of quite a number of people who believe that they evolved from apelike ancestors. I've noticed that their beliefs ofttimes cause them to behave as apes. Any connection there?
QUOTE (Derek1148+Apr 9 2011, 01:41 AM)
Understood. Israel has found its greatest supporters among American Christians. Nixon was probably the staunchest supporter of Israel.
The irony of that, considering american christians must believe all religious jews in Israel are going to hell for not accepting jesus as the son of god.
The support of american christians is two faced. It is there for their own agenda, not because they love the jews.
Nixon was a corrupt individual who broke the laws of his own country for his own personal agenda. Great poster boy choice.....not!
The irony of that, considering american christians must believe all religious jews in Israel are going to hell for not accepting jesus as the son of god.
The support of american christians is two faced. It is there for their own agenda, not because they love the jews.
Nixon was a corrupt individual who broke the laws of his own country for his own personal agenda. Great poster boy choice.....not!
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 12:26 PM)
Who said anything about "exclusivity"? Certainly not me. It was, however, aimed at those who believe in Biblical texts. Your own words betray you.
Actually, the topic is open to atheists , agnostics and any others who wish to comment. It was not a bait toward christians. The discussion revolves around whether or not believeing in biblical texts would cause people to act a certain way, not that you had to believe in biblical texts in order to respond to the question.
You see what you want to see.
Actually, the topic is open to atheists , agnostics and any others who wish to comment. It was not a bait toward christians. The discussion revolves around whether or not believeing in biblical texts would cause people to act a certain way, not that you had to believe in biblical texts in order to respond to the question.
You see what you want to see.
QUOTE
It matters greatly because you were talking about "the end of the world" and not just Israel's demise.
They are apparently intertwined according to the bible. It does not matter when, it is part of a process. I accept however your explanation that it is 1000 years later when the world actually comes to an end, but that is not what I was discussing. I was discussing one part of that process.QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| It matters greatly because you were talking about "the end of the world" and not just Israel's demise. |
They are apparently intertwined according to the bible. It does not matter when, it is part of a process. I accept however your explanation that it is 1000 years later when the world actually comes to an end, but that is not what I was discussing. I was discussing one part of that process.
The whole premise of YOUR "conspiracy theory" rests upon "belief in the Bible's predictions" so it is a silly (I said ridiculous, by the way) question. That same "belief in the Bible's predictions" doesn't bode too well for those who come against Israel.
The whole premise of YOUR "conspiracy theory" rests upon "belief in the Bible's predictions" so it is a silly (I said ridiculous, by the way) question. That same "belief in the Bible's predictions" doesn't bode too well for those who come against Israel.
It is not a conspiracy theory. I am wondering if being told to believe in something, leads you to act out what is stated in the belief. Its not that complicated.
I believe it is fair to say, that we humans are influenced by everything we encounter, and that influence may alter how we behave. If you are influenced by the bible, would you make decisions based upon what the bible predicts for the future? It is not only biblical references that can influence, being told evolution exists may also alter our actions, but evolution makes no predictions as to the future, so it would not be a good example to use.
What is so telling of your psyche, is that I am trying to understand a possible human condition by asking a question, and you immedietly see it as an attack against religion. I am agnostic, I don't take sides, but for my further journey, I like to ask "silly" questions. If you don't like the question or think it is silly, just ignore it. That is what I and I am sure others on this forum do.
QUOTE
I know of quite a number of people who believe that they evolved from apelike ancestors. I've noticed that their beliefs ofttimes cause them to behave as apes. Any connection there?
Give an example of such behaviour and I may be able to answer the question. It is a fair enough question and in many ways mirrors what I am trying to establish in my original question.I believe it is fair to say, that we humans are influenced by everything we encounter, and that influence may alter how we behave. If you are influenced by the bible, would you make decisions based upon what the bible predicts for the future? It is not only biblical references that can influence, being told evolution exists may also alter our actions, but evolution makes no predictions as to the future, so it would not be a good example to use.
What is so telling of your psyche, is that I am trying to understand a possible human condition by asking a question, and you immedietly see it as an attack against religion. I am agnostic, I don't take sides, but for my further journey, I like to ask "silly" questions. If you don't like the question or think it is silly, just ignore it. That is what I and I am sure others on this forum do.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Apr 9 2011, 12:44 PM)
The support of american christians is two faced. It is there for their own agenda, not because they love the jews.
What possible agenda could there be other than righteousness? Oil? Gold? Perhaps you're looking in the mirror when you speak of hypocrisy. Believe or not there are those that would even defend your rights and opinions (as obnoxious and insipid as they may be).
What possible agenda could there be other than righteousness? Oil? Gold? Perhaps you're looking in the mirror when you speak of hypocrisy. Believe or not there are those that would even defend your rights and opinions (as obnoxious and insipid as they may be).
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
Actually, the topic is open to atheists , agnostics and any others who wish to comment. It was not a bait toward christians. The discussion revolves around whether or not believeing in biblical texts would cause people to act a certain way, not that you had to believe in biblical texts in order to respond to the question.
You see what you want to see.
No, I see what you actually typed/stated. You said, "If YOU believe in Biblical texts" and not "If ONE believes in Biblical texts". Big difference. As we both know, atheists don't believe in Biblical texts, especially those related to the end of the world, and agnostics, by definition, don't know, so why would they be influenced by something that they don't even know about? Like I said, your own words betray you.
You see what you want to see.
No, I see what you actually typed/stated. You said, "If YOU believe in Biblical texts" and not "If ONE believes in Biblical texts". Big difference. As we both know, atheists don't believe in Biblical texts, especially those related to the end of the world, and agnostics, by definition, don't know, so why would they be influenced by something that they don't even know about? Like I said, your own words betray you.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
They are apparently intertwined according to the bible. It does not matter when, it is part of a process. I accept however your explanation that it is 1000 years later when the world actually comes to an end, but that is not what I was discussing. I was discussing one part of that process.
Fine. Out of curiosity, while he was yet alive, do you honestly believe that any hatred that Saddam Hussein felt towards the Jews/Israel was directly linked to a "belief", whether conscious or subconscious, in "Biblical texts"? Honestly? Just one example of many that I could possibly cite.
Fine. Out of curiosity, while he was yet alive, do you honestly believe that any hatred that Saddam Hussein felt towards the Jews/Israel was directly linked to a "belief", whether conscious or subconscious, in "Biblical texts"? Honestly? Just one example of many that I could possibly cite.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
It is not a conspiracy theory. I am wondering if being told to believe in something, leads you to act out what is stated in the belief. Its not that complicated.
How many times have YOU been told to "believe in Jesus"? Has it caused YOU to "act out what is stated in the belief"? There's your answer.
How many times have YOU been told to "believe in Jesus"? Has it caused YOU to "act out what is stated in the belief"? There's your answer.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
Give an example of such behaviour and I may be able to answer the question. It is a fair enough question and in many ways mirrors what I am trying to establish in my original question.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10...al-animals.html
Would you consider that a belief in evolution might be a contributing cause to this effect?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10...al-animals.html
Would you consider that a belief in evolution might be a contributing cause to this effect?
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
I believe it is fair to say, that we humans are influenced by everything we encounter, and that influence may alter how we behave. If you are influenced by the bible, would you make decisions based upon what the bible predicts for the future?
Are any of my own personal decisions influenced by Biblical predictions? Yes, many, but, as I've said before, it's not merely the Bible that I'm following, but the God of the Bible Who leads by His Spirit.
Are any of my own personal decisions influenced by Biblical predictions? Yes, many, but, as I've said before, it's not merely the Bible that I'm following, but the God of the Bible Who leads by His Spirit.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
It is not only biblical references that can influence, being told evolution exists may also alter our actions, but evolution makes no predictions as to the future, so it would not be a good example to use.
You're greatly in error on this point. Evolution DOES make predictions related to the future. For example, evolution teaches that you'll die and that's it (except for any genes you might leave in a pool). In other words, no judment/accountability/afterlife/etc. Do you honestly believe that such a belief doesn't influence one's behavior? Honestly? Many times, on this very forum, it has been sarcastically/bemeaningly noted that a "believer's belief" in an afterlife influences their behavior here on earth, so why wouldn't the opposite also be true?
You're greatly in error on this point. Evolution DOES make predictions related to the future. For example, evolution teaches that you'll die and that's it (except for any genes you might leave in a pool). In other words, no judment/accountability/afterlife/etc. Do you honestly believe that such a belief doesn't influence one's behavior? Honestly? Many times, on this very forum, it has been sarcastically/bemeaningly noted that a "believer's belief" in an afterlife influences their behavior here on earth, so why wouldn't the opposite also be true?
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
What is so telling of your psyche, is that I am trying to understand a possible human condition by asking a question, and you immedietly see it as an attack against religion.
Actually, what is "so telling of YOUR psyche" is that you have a propensity to turn towards deceit when confronted with your errors. When did I ever mention an "attack"? Never, of course. I merely mentioned "bait". "Attack" religion all that you'd like. As I've noted before, your real quarrel is against God Himself and that is a futile endeavor as you'll one day learn firsthand.
Actually, what is "so telling of YOUR psyche" is that you have a propensity to turn towards deceit when confronted with your errors. When did I ever mention an "attack"? Never, of course. I merely mentioned "bait". "Attack" religion all that you'd like. As I've noted before, your real quarrel is against God Himself and that is a futile endeavor as you'll one day learn firsthand.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
I am agnostic, I don't take sides, but for my further journey, I like to ask "silly" questions. If you don't like the question or think it is silly, just ignore it. That is what I and I am sure others on this forum do.
Yeah, righhttttttt. YOU and others "just ignore silly questions"? You're full of crap. Actually, YOU and others feast on such questions, like vultures descending on a kill. Look, if you're not even going to be honest with yourself, then don't be surprised or upset when others call you dishonest.
Take care.
Yeah, righhttttttt. YOU and others "just ignore silly questions"? You're full of crap. Actually, YOU and others feast on such questions, like vultures descending on a kill. Look, if you're not even going to be honest with yourself, then don't be surprised or upset when others call you dishonest.
Take care.
QUOTE (Derek1148+Apr 9 2011, 01:52 PM)
What possible agenda could there be other than righteousness?
Keeping Jerusalem out of the hands of muslims is one I can thin of. Fufilling religious prophecy is another. The state of Israel has to exist in order for biblical prophecy to be followed. It benefits christians for Israel to exist so that their bible seems authentic.
Keeping Jerusalem out of the hands of muslims is one I can thin of. Fufilling religious prophecy is another. The state of Israel has to exist in order for biblical prophecy to be followed. It benefits christians for Israel to exist so that their bible seems authentic.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
Fufilling religious prophecy is another. The state of Israel has to exist in order for biblical prophecy to be followed. It benefits christians for Israel to exist so that their bible seems authentic.
[sarcasm]Derek1148: In case you don't understand what fredinjeddah is saying, let me see if I can *AHEM* clarify it for you:
1. Israel has to be destroyed for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled.
2. Israel has to exist for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled.
What the...???
[/sarcasm]
I hope that clears things up for you. The Bible really should be kept out of the hands of certain types of individuals.
Take care.
[sarcasm]Derek1148: In case you don't understand what fredinjeddah is saying, let me see if I can *AHEM* clarify it for you:
1. Israel has to be destroyed for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled.
2. Israel has to exist for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled.
What the...???
[/sarcasm]I hope that clears things up for you. The Bible really should be kept out of the hands of certain types of individuals.
Take care.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Apr 9 2011, 04:52 PM)
Keeping Jerusalem out of the hands of muslims is one I can thin of. Fufilling religious prophecy is another. The state of Israel has to exist in order for biblical prophecy to be followed. It benefits christians for Israel to exist so that their bible seems authentic.
Have you considered some sort of therapy?
Have you considered some sort of therapy?
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
Have you considered some sort of therapy?
Hey, did you read my last response that just barely precedes yours?
I think that he's beyond "therapy".
Yep, I'm afraid that we'll need to operate...
Hey, did you read my last response that just barely precedes yours?
I think that he's beyond "therapy".
Yep, I'm afraid that we'll need to operate...
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
Have you considered some sort of therapy?
Hey, did you read my last response that just barely precedes yours?
I guess agree. We have found some common ground in reference to a poster's insanity.
Hey, did you read my last response that just barely precedes yours?
I guess agree. We have found some common ground in reference to a poster's insanity.
QUOTE (Derek1148+)
I guess agree. We have found some common ground in reference to a poster's insanity.
Now that we have "common ground", can we fight as to who's in charge of it?
Idle hands truly can be the devil's workshop. I need to get back to work.
Take care.
Now that we have "common ground", can we fight as to who's in charge of it?
Idle hands truly can be the devil's workshop. I need to get back to work.
Take care.
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 02:14 PM)
Yeah, righhttttttt. YOU and others "just ignore silly questions"? You're full of crap. Actually, YOU and others feast on such questions, like vultures descending on a kill. Look, if you're not even going to be honest with yourself, then don't be surprised or upset when others call you dishonest.
Take care.
I am honest with myself, just because you or others do not agree with what I say, does not make me dishonest. it just makes us different. You clearly fear difference, but that is an issue you have to deal with, not me.
My original statement which has apparently offended you so deeply, to assume I am trying to trick or deceive you follows this simmilar argument.
If you believe that lightining cannot strike the same spot twice, would you stand still in a storm or walk. In order to answer, you do not need to have actually experienced lightning striking you, merely putting yourself in such a persons shoes in order to answer the question. But whatever!!!
Take care.
I am honest with myself, just because you or others do not agree with what I say, does not make me dishonest. it just makes us different. You clearly fear difference, but that is an issue you have to deal with, not me.
QUOTE
No, I see what you actually typed/stated. You said, "If YOU believe in Biblical texts" and not "If ONE believes in Biblical texts". Big difference. As we both know, atheists don't believe in Biblical texts, especially those related to the end of the world, and agnostics, by definition, don't know, so why would they be influenced by something that they don't even know about? Like I said, your own words betray you.
Then let me correct myself. If someone believes biblical texts, and they believe the end of the world will come as we know it when certain things are fufilled, like all nations turning against Israel, is it possible that such people will be influenced in their decision making in order to attempt to fufill such a prophecy. In other words, does apparent knowledge of an event in the future, in some way either consciously or subconsciously effect our present actions?My original statement which has apparently offended you so deeply, to assume I am trying to trick or deceive you follows this simmilar argument.
If you believe that lightining cannot strike the same spot twice, would you stand still in a storm or walk. In order to answer, you do not need to have actually experienced lightning striking you, merely putting yourself in such a persons shoes in order to answer the question. But whatever!!!
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No, I see what you actually typed/stated. You said, "If YOU believe in Biblical texts" and not "If ONE believes in Biblical texts". Big difference. As we both know, atheists don't believe in Biblical texts, especially those related to the end of the world, and agnostics, by definition, don't know, so why would they be influenced by something that they don't even know about? Like I said, your own words betray you. |
Then let me correct myself. If someone believes biblical texts, and they believe the end of the world will come as we know it when certain things are fufilled, like all nations turning against Israel, is it possible that such people will be influenced in their decision making in order to attempt to fufill such a prophecy. In other words, does apparent knowledge of an event in the future, in some way either consciously or subconsciously effect our present actions?
My original statement which has apparently offended you so deeply, to assume I am trying to trick or deceive you follows this simmilar argument.
If you believe that lightining cannot strike the same spot twice, would you stand still in a storm or walk. In order to answer, you do not need to have actually experienced lightning striking you, merely putting yourself in such a persons shoes in order to answer the question. But whatever!!!
Fine. Out of curiosity, while he was yet alive, do you honestly believe that any hatred that Saddam Hussein felt towards the Jews/Israel was directly linked to a "belief", whether conscious or subconscious, in "Biblical texts"? Honestly? Just one example of many that I could possibly cite.
My original statement which has apparently offended you so deeply, to assume I am trying to trick or deceive you follows this simmilar argument.
If you believe that lightining cannot strike the same spot twice, would you stand still in a storm or walk. In order to answer, you do not need to have actually experienced lightning striking you, merely putting yourself in such a persons shoes in order to answer the question. But whatever!!!
Fine. Out of curiosity, while he was yet alive, do you honestly believe that any hatred that Saddam Hussein felt towards the Jews/Israel was directly linked to a "belief", whether conscious or subconscious, in "Biblical texts"? Honestly? Just one example of many that I could possibly cite.
This has no relevance to the statement I made, but I will answer my opinion in any event......honestly.
No , I think he hated jews for many reasons, both political and personal. I do not know the mind of Saddam Hussein, so I cannot answer what his true motivation was.
No , I think he hated jews for many reasons, both political and personal. I do not know the mind of Saddam Hussein, so I cannot answer what his true motivation was.
QUOTE
How many times have YOU been told to "believe in Jesus"? Has it caused YOU to "act out what is stated in the belief"? There's your answer.
I know my answer, I was looking for someone elses answer though.QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| How many times have YOU been told to "believe in Jesus"? Has it caused YOU to "act out what is stated in the belief"? There's your answer. |
I know my answer, I was looking for someone elses answer though.
Would you consider that a belief in evolution might be a contributing cause to this effect?
Would you consider that a belief in evolution might be a contributing cause to this effect?
Your reference earlier was to ape like behaviour. The example you provided seems to have no relevance to evolution and no indication those individuals even know about evolution, so I cannot make a comment on the link you provided.
I am unsure if evolution makes the claim you refer to, but I am no expert in evolution. One thing it doesn't do, is lay out how you should live your life. That it leaves up to you. I cannot say for certainty that an afterlife does not exist, but as of yet, all the evidence points to none existing. Until I have evidence to the contrary, I accept this as the case.
QUOTE
You're greatly in error on this point. Evolution DOES make predictions related to the future. For example, evolution teaches that you'll die and that's it (except for any genes you might leave in a pool). In other words, no judment/accountability/afterlife/etc. Do you honestly believe that such a belief doesn't influence one's behavior? Honestly?
I honestly believe that knowing we are going to die has an effect on my life. The fact that evolution (in your words not mine) states we are going to die and thats it, hasn't made me change anything in relation to how I felt about death. I never had fear when I had religious beliefs, and I still don't fear death now. This is me though, and I cannot speak for anyone else. One thing is for certain, becoming agnostic has been the most liberating experience of my life as guilt has been removed from my lifes equation and been replaced with responsibility for my own actions.I am unsure if evolution makes the claim you refer to, but I am no expert in evolution. One thing it doesn't do, is lay out how you should live your life. That it leaves up to you. I cannot say for certainty that an afterlife does not exist, but as of yet, all the evidence points to none existing. Until I have evidence to the contrary, I accept this as the case.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You're greatly in error on this point. Evolution DOES make predictions related to the future. For example, evolution teaches that you'll die and that's it (except for any genes you might leave in a pool). In other words, no judment/accountability/afterlife/etc. Do you honestly believe that such a belief doesn't influence one's behavior? Honestly? |
I honestly believe that knowing we are going to die has an effect on my life. The fact that evolution (in your words not mine) states we are going to die and thats it, hasn't made me change anything in relation to how I felt about death. I never had fear when I had religious beliefs, and I still don't fear death now. This is me though, and I cannot speak for anyone else. One thing is for certain, becoming agnostic has been the most liberating experience of my life as guilt has been removed from my lifes equation and been replaced with responsibility for my own actions.
I am unsure if evolution makes the claim you refer to, but I am no expert in evolution. One thing it doesn't do, is lay out how you should live your life. That it leaves up to you. I cannot say for certainty that an afterlife does not exist, but as of yet, all the evidence points to none existing. Until I have evidence to the contrary, I accept this as the case.
Many times, on this very forum, it has been sarcastically/bemeaningly noted that a "believer's belief" in an afterlife influences their behavior here on earth, so why wouldn't the opposite also be true?
I am unsure if evolution makes the claim you refer to, but I am no expert in evolution. One thing it doesn't do, is lay out how you should live your life. That it leaves up to you. I cannot say for certainty that an afterlife does not exist, but as of yet, all the evidence points to none existing. Until I have evidence to the contrary, I accept this as the case.
Many times, on this very forum, it has been sarcastically/bemeaningly noted that a "believer's belief" in an afterlife influences their behavior here on earth, so why wouldn't the opposite also be true?
I think it would be true. My discussion related to the revelations prophecy which is predictive on specific issues. Evolution does not predict anything, it presents scientific evidence, which is open to scientific scrutiny.
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 05:18 PM)
1. Israel has to be destroyed for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled.
2. Israel has to exist for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled.
What the...???
The Bible really should be kept out of the hands of certain types of individuals.
Take care.
I refer to Israel in its biblical sense, as the promised land for the jews, as per the old testament.
When jews were expelled from Israel and their country was occupied by invading forces over some two thousand years ago and after, to me the state of Israel ceased to exist.
When the modern state of Israel was created in 1948, it once again came into existance as Jews returned to reclaim their lost land....and a large chunk they were never entitled to in terms of international law.
The bible should be kept out of everyones hands.
2. Israel has to exist for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled.
What the...???
The Bible really should be kept out of the hands of certain types of individuals.
Take care.
I refer to Israel in its biblical sense, as the promised land for the jews, as per the old testament.
When jews were expelled from Israel and their country was occupied by invading forces over some two thousand years ago and after, to me the state of Israel ceased to exist.
When the modern state of Israel was created in 1948, it once again came into existance as Jews returned to reclaim their lost land....and a large chunk they were never entitled to in terms of international law.
The bible should be kept out of everyones hands.
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+)
I refer to Israel in its biblical sense, as the promised land for the jews, as per the old testament.
"The promised land" was NEVER promised to the Jews, as per the Old Testament...at least not the type of "Jews" that you refer to, so you're off on the wrong foot...again.
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)
When God made promises to Abraham and his seed, singular, He made those promises to Abraham and to Jesus Christ. Additionally, Abraham's seed is comprised of all of those, whether Jew or Gentile, who have truly turned to Jesus Christ for the salvation of their souls. I'd be happy to discuss this with you further, if you but so desire to do so.
Take care.
"The promised land" was NEVER promised to the Jews, as per the Old Testament...at least not the type of "Jews" that you refer to, so you're off on the wrong foot...again.
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)
When God made promises to Abraham and his seed, singular, He made those promises to Abraham and to Jesus Christ. Additionally, Abraham's seed is comprised of all of those, whether Jew or Gentile, who have truly turned to Jesus Christ for the salvation of their souls. I'd be happy to discuss this with you further, if you but so desire to do so.
Take care.
QUOTE (newguy+Apr 9 2011, 07:13 PM)
When God made promises to Abraham and his seed, singular, He made those promises to Abraham and to Jesus Christ. Additionally, Abraham's seed is comprised of all of those, whether Jew or Gentile, who have truly turned to Jesus Christ for the salvation of their souls. I'd be happy to discuss this with you further, if you but so desire to do so.
That is, in literary terms, what we call a retcon. That's short for "retroactive continuity." You do that when you realize you made a mistake in an earlier installment and decide to make up some excuse for why you got it wrong initially. As much as you'd like to think, the Old Testament did not predict Jesus Christ. Rather, the details of Jesus' life were fudged to fit prophecies. What you just did is even less honest.
That is, in literary terms, what we call a retcon. That's short for "retroactive continuity." You do that when you realize you made a mistake in an earlier installment and decide to make up some excuse for why you got it wrong initially. As much as you'd like to think, the Old Testament did not predict Jesus Christ. Rather, the details of Jesus' life were fudged to fit prophecies. What you just did is even less honest.
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