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Farsight
TIME EXPLAINED

Time is very simple, once you get it. But “getting it” is very difficult. That’s because your current concept of time is so deeply ingrained. You form a mental map of the world using your senses and your brain. You use this mental map to think, and you are so immersed in it that you can’t see things the way they really are. You are locked into an irrational conviction that clocks run, that days pass, and that journeys take a length of time.

user posted image

It takes an open mind, and logic to break out of this conditioning. First of all we need to look at your senses and the things you experience. Let’s start with sight. Look at the picture below, then follow the link to see the full size version:

User posted image

http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/Optical...s/illusions.htm

The central portions of the two crosses are the same colour. You think the one on the left is grey and the one on the right is yellow. Not true. Tear a small hole in a piece of paper to make a peephole to mask out the context. Hold it up to one image after the other, and you realise that the central portion of the right-hand image really is grey. The yellow was the illusion. What does this tell you? It tells you that something you took for granted is not true. And it should remind you that a photon doesn’t have a colour. It has a wavelength, an oscillation, a motion.

Let’s move on to sound. Imagine a super-evolved alien bat with a large number of ears, like a fly’s eye. This bat would “see” using sound, and if it was sufficiently advanced it might even see in colour. But we know that sound is pressure waves, and when we look beyond this at the air molecules, we know that sound relies on motion.

Pressure is related to sound, and to touch. You feel it in your ears on a plane, or on your chest if you dive. You can feel it when I shake your hand. But you know you can’t measure the pressure of an atom, because pressure isn’t a fundamental property of the sub-atomic world. It’s a derived effect, and the Kinetic Theory of Gases tells us it’s derived from motion.

How about kinetic energy? A cannonball in space travelling at 1000m/s has kinetic energy. If it impacted your chest you would feel it. But apologies, my mistake. It isn't the cannonball doing 1000m/s. It's you. So where's the kinetic energy now? Can you feel it coursing through your veins? No. Because what’s really there is mass, and relative motion.

You can also feel heat. Touch that pretty stove and sizz, you feel heat. We talk about heat exchangers and heat flow as if there’s some magical mysterious fluid in there. And yet we know there isn’t. We know that heat is another derived effect of motion.

User posted image

Taste is chemical in nature, and primitive. Most of your sense of taste is really your sense of smell. Do you know how smell works? Look up olfaction and you’ll learn about molecular shape. But the latest theory from a guy called Luca Turin says it’s all down to molecular vibration, not shape, because isomers smell the same. That’s motion again.

The point of all this is there’s a lot of motion out there, and most of your senses are motion detectors. But it never occurred to you because you’re accustomed to thinking about the world in terms of how you experience it, rather than the scientific, empirical, fundamental, ontological things that are there. And nowhere is this more so than with time.

So, what is time? Let’s start by looking up the definition of a second:

Under the International System of Units, the second is currently defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom. This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0K…

So, a second is nine billion periods of radiation. Now, what’s a period? We know that radiation is basically light, so let’s have a look at frequency:

Frequency = 1 / T and Frequency = v / λ

So frequency is the reciprocal of the period T, and also velocity v divided by wavelength λ. No problem. Flipping things around, we see that period T is wavelength λ divided by velocity v. We know that a wavelength is a distance, a thing like a metre:

The metre is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299792458 of a second...

And we all know that velocity is a distance divided by a time. So a period is a distance divided by a distance divided by a time. The result is another period of time. This definition of time is circular and tells us nothing. How do we define it? Let’s look at frequency again:

Frequency is the measurement of the number of times that a repeated event occurs per unit of time.

So frequency is a number of events per second. And a second is a number of some other events. The interval between events is measured in terms of other events. And the interval between those events is measured in terms of other events. Until there are no events left, only intervals. And intervals are frozen timeless moments. For time is a measure of events, of change, measured by and against some other change. And for things to change, something, somewhere, somehow, has to have motion. You don’t need time to have motion. You need motion to have time.

We measured nine billion oscillation events and defined that as a second. We counted events. We counted motions. One, two, three, four, five… nine billion. Mark that down as a second. But you don’t have to count the motion in an atomic clock. You could count beans in a bucket. Ping, ping, ping, chuck them in, regular as clockwork.

user posted image

You’re sitting there counting beans into the bucket, ping, ping, ping. Now, what is the direction of time? The only direction that is actually there, is the direction of the beans you’re throwing. “Fuller Bucket” is not the direction of time. “More Beans" is not the direction of time. The direction of your time is the direction of your counting, and I could have asked you to count them out of the bucket. There is no “Arrow of Beans”. There is no “Arrow of Time”. That’s just an illusion, as imaginary as the direction you take when you count along the set of integers.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 →

So why do we say things like Clocks slow down as if a clock is something that moves like a car? It isn't travelling. There's no slow or fast or up or down to it. We say the day went quickly but we know it didn’t go anywhere, and it didn’t go quickly at any speed at all. It isn’t travelling and there is no direction. The only directions that are there, are the directions of the motions that make the events that we use to measure the intervals between the other events. And they’re being counted, incremented, added up. We count regular atomic motion to use as a ratio against some other motion, be it of light, atoms, clocks, or brains. All of these things have motion, both internal motion and travelling motion. And all those motions are real, with real directions in space, ending in the sameness we call entropy. But the time direction isn't real. It's as imaginary as a trip to nine billion.

That's why the past is only in your head and your records. It isn’t a place you can travel to. It’s the places where things moved from. All those places are still here, now. And while the past is the integral of all nows, now lasts for no time at all. Because time needs events, and if there were only intervals and no events, there wouldn’t be any time. When you take away the events and the motion, you take away the time. A second isn’t some slice of spacetime, it’s just nine billion motions of a caesium atom. Accelerate to half the speed of light and a second is still nine billion motions of a caesium atom. But there's only half the local motion there used to be, because the other half is already doing the travelling motion through space. Imagine yourself as a metronome. Each tick is a thought in your head, a beat in your heart, a second of your time. If you’re motionless with respect to me I see you ticking like this |||. If you jet off in a spaceship, you tick like this /\/\/\. If you could reach c and we know you can’t, you wouldn’t tick at all. Your time would flatline like this ______ because any transverse motion would cause c to be exceeded. And you wouldn’t tick for anybody else in the universe. That’s the thing that’s out there, the thing we’re trying to learn about. This is what it’s like:

User posted image

What can you see? What can you measure? Yes you can measure height. And width. And if it wasn't just a picture you could also measure depth. That's three Dimensions, with a capital D because we have freedom of movement in those dimensions. What else can you see? What else can you measure? You can see things moving, but you can’t see a fourth dimension. You might imagine a time dimension, with direction and length. But the picture comes from the wikipedia temperature page. The thing you should measure is temperature, which used to be considered a dimension, before the word changed from “measure” to “Dimension” under your feet. Temperature is an aspect of heat, that derived effect of motion. When you measure the temperature you are measuring motion, because that’s what’s there. You can call it a dimension, but there can be no motion in this dimension, because it’s a measure of motion. If you were one of those dots, immersed in temperature like we are immersed in time, you would not talk of climbing to a “high temperature”, because there is no height. Likewise we cannot travel a length of time, because there is no length, just as there is no height in temperature. So time is a dimension with a small d. It's a measure of change of place rather than a measure of place, and it has no absolute units, because you can only measure one change of place against another. The units are relative, which is what Special Relativity tells us.

Special Relativity tells us that your relative velocity alters your measurement of space and time compared to everybody else. You increase your relative velocity and space contracts while time dilates by a factor of √(1-v2/c2). If you travel at .99c, space contracts to one seventh of its former size. So your trip to a star seven light years away only takes you a year. But physics is about the universe, and in that universe it took you seven years. The space in the universe didn’t contract because you travelled through it. But your time did.

User posted image

Einstein didn’t understand the full meaning of Special Relativity until later in life. In the early days he was influenced by Hermann Minkowski, a father-figure whose forename was the same as Einstein’s actual father. It was Minkowski who turned time into the fourth dimension:

The mathematics of his revolutionary paper on Special Relativity was relatively elementary, and at first he resisted its reformulation in terms of four-dimensional space-time by his former teacher Hermann Minkowski, complaining that “since the mathematicians pounced on relativity theory I no longer understand it myself”.

Later Einstein struggled with the Twins Paradox in 1918. He used acceleration from General Relativity as the explanation, but this explanation was erroneous and didn’t account for passing clocks. Look it up on wikipedia. A couple of years on in 1920 he gave an address at the University of Leyden about the dreaded ether:

..according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable inedia, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.

When you read the history you can see a slow evolution from the postulate that says the laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames of reference. The problem with reference frames is that all our observer velocities are zero, and if you don’t take care the sun goes round the earth. They don’t explain why the speed of light is always the same. It wasn’t until Einstein met Godel in Princeton that he realised the full impact of what Special Relativity really meant:

In his response to Godel's paper in the Schilpp volume, Einstein acknowledged that "the problem here disturbed me at the time of the building up of the general theory of relativity." This problem he described as follows: "Is what remains of temporal connection between world-points in the theory of relativity an asymmetrical relation (like time, intuitively understood, and unlike space), or would one be just as much justified to assert A is before B as to assert that A is after B? The issue could also be put this way: is relativistic space-time in essence a space or a time."

Godel didn’t “find a way to time travel” with his rotating universe. He merely used this conjecture to demonstrate that time could not have passed if you could visit the past. Einstein was with Godel on this, and understood full well the implications:

It is a widely known but insufficiently appreciated fact that Albert Einstein and Kurt Godel were best friends for the last decade and a half of Einstein's life. They walked home together from Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study every day; they shared ideas about physics, philosophy, politics, and the lost world of German-Austrian science in which they had grown up. What is not widely known is that in 1949 Godel made a remarkable discovery: there exist possible worlds described by the theory of relativity in which time, as we ordinarily understand it, does not exist. He added a philosophical argument that demonstrates, by Godel's lights, that as a consequence, time does not exist in our world either. If Godel is right, Einstein has not just explained time; he has explained it away...

That’s the true meaning of Special Relativity. The “speed of light” was always the problem. And it was always the problem because time was always the problem. Because at the speed of light there’s no time left for anything else to happen. It’s why c isn’t really a speed, because you run out of time trying to get there, and if there’s no time, there’s no speed because speed is distance over time. Velocity is prime. It defines your metres and your seconds. We should talk of it as a fraction of c like in the equations, or by degrees, but not by the things it itself defines. Because like temperature time is derived from motion, which is what is there. And c is the total motion, the rapidity of inductance from which we slice our immersive time, the inescapable property of oscillating photons and those electromagnetic things from which we’re made. From which the universe is made.

The universe is not a block universe, it is a world in motion. The worldlines are only in mathematical space, and in your head. There is no future, there is no past, only the now that is always now, the now of Presentism. We don’t travel in time at one second per second. We don't travel in time at all. Relativistic clocks don’t travel in time at different rates, they travel in space at different degrees of c, and when they collide, they collide at the same location and at the same time whatever their faces say is local time. Local time.

To travel backwards in time we'd need to unevent events, we’d need negative motion. But motion is motion whichever way it goes. You can’t have negative motion. So you can’t travel backwards in time. There are no time travel paradoxes, because there is no time travel, and there is no time travel because there is no travelling in time. And there never was. Time didn’t start fifteen billion years ago. Because time didn’t start in the first place. It was motion that started in the first place. And it was fifteen billion light years away by every light path you can track through timeless space. That’s how far we’ve come.

And now we can move on.

User posted image

Acknowledgements:

Thanks to echalk and R Beau Lotto re colour perception, to Palle Yourgrau for “A World Without Time” re Einstein history, and to Julian Barbour (“The End of Time), Paul Davies (“About Time”) and Carlo Rovelli (various) for background reading. And thanks to all the forum fellas for all the feedback, wiki contributors, anybody who put up an image I’ve borrowed, and anybody else I’ve missed. And Albert Einstein

Thanks guys.
lazlazlaz1
Totally fascinating reading. I don't profess to fully understand all of what you said, but I shall have another go when I have some more time...hmm...
Farsight
Time. LOL.

The other optical illusions are pretty stunning too. They really hammer home how much we all take for granted.



User posted image

NoCleverName
That was a pretty long-winded way of stating the obvious.

But it wasn't bad writing.
Zephir
QUOTE (lazlazlaz1+Dec 13 2006, 08:39 PM)
...I don't profess to fully understand all of what you said...

I don't understand the answer at all. So what's the time, after than? For example Amrit at least simply says, the time is motion, so we can dispute about it.

This is not answer, just political babbling, like those during election campaign.
*vanadesse
Hi Farsight,

Sorry, I don't have lots of time right now, but I'll adress some of the main things:
QUOTE
So why do we say things like Clocks slow down as if a clock is something that moves like a car?

The motion of the clock slows down. This post is all about motion, right? So it should be pretty easy to understand... Clocks do move. Haven't you ever sat in a really long meeting or class and watched the second hand slooowly tick? Clocks do slow down, it has been proven - you can't go against experimental evidence.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So why do we say things like Clocks slow down as if a clock is something that moves like a car?

The motion of the clock slows down. This post is all about motion, right? So it should be pretty easy to understand... Clocks do move. Haven't you ever sat in a really long meeting or class and watched the second hand slooowly tick? Clocks do slow down, it has been proven - you can't go against experimental evidence.
Because time needs events, and if there were only intervals and no events, there wouldn’t be any time.

But how do you know that??? I doubt that you've experienced a timeless situation before.
QUOTE

Einstein didn’t understand the full meaning of Special Relativity until later in life. In the early days he was influenced by Hermann Minkowski, a father-figure whose forename was the same as Einstein’s actual father. It was Minkowski who turned time into the fourth dimension:

The mathematics of his revolutionary paper on Special Relativity was relatively elementary, and at first he resisted its reformulation in terms of four-dimensional space-time by his former teacher Hermann Minkowski, complaining that “since the mathematicians pounced on relativity theory I no longer understand it myself”.

That is completely wrong. Einstein completely understood his theory at first, since he came up with it! He said that he didn't "understand it" afterwards because the concepts of the theory were replaced with lines and lines of complicated mathematics. He was being sarcastic.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Einstein didn’t understand the full meaning of Special Relativity until later in life. In the early days he was influenced by Hermann Minkowski, a father-figure whose forename was the same as Einstein’s actual father. It was Minkowski who turned time into the fourth dimension:

The mathematics of his revolutionary paper on Special Relativity was relatively elementary, and at first he resisted its reformulation in terms of four-dimensional space-time by his former teacher Hermann Minkowski, complaining that “since the mathematicians pounced on relativity theory I no longer understand it myself”.

That is completely wrong. Einstein completely understood his theory at first, since he came up with it! He said that he didn't "understand it" afterwards because the concepts of the theory were replaced with lines and lines of complicated mathematics. He was being sarcastic.
Later Einstein struggled with the Twins Paradox in 1918.

No he didn't!! The Twin's Paradox is NOT a paradox. At most, he struggled with trying to explain it to everyone else.

Pretty much everything else you conclude about Einstein is wrong... no time to explain further right now.
QUOTE
Accelerate to half the speed of light and a second is still nine billion motions of a caesium atom. But there's only half the local motion there used to be, because the other half is already doing the travelling motion through space.

So the "local motion" is not through space? So what is it moving through?
How is this model different from Einstein's? If you just consider time to be a dimension, everything becomes SO MUCH SIMPLER. It just MAKES SENSE.
Farsight
Vanadesse:

Yes of course the motion within the clock slows down. But that's just it. The clock is measuring the motion, not the time. The time isn't moving. And the clock only moves like a car moves when its engine is "ticking" over. Which is not much. OK these are fine linguistic points, but don't blur the distinctions.

I can't prove the thing about intervals. And neither can you!

Yes, Einstein was being sarcastic about Minkowski, but he definitely wasn't happy about it. And yes, he understood his theory from the start, and yes I know the Twins Paradox is no paradox. But Einstein really did get his answer wrong in 1918. Later on he was striving to explain the postulates of Special Relativity. Look at the quotes in the essay again, and DYOR. What I'm telling you about Einstein is definitely not "completely wrong".

Of course the local motion is through space. The model is no different to Einstein's. You've got a light beam going between two parallel mirrors like this | but if we're moving with respect to each other I say it looks like this /\/\/\. Maybe I should change "local" to "lateral" or "transverse". I'll check that.
QUOTE
If you just consider time to be a dimension, everything becomes SO MUCH SIMPLER. It just MAKES SENSE.

I have just considered time to be a dimension. For years. Then I worked out that it just didn't make sense because we can't move through time, and time doesn't pass. Can you think of any "evidence" that says we can and it does? I know accelerated clocks experience time dilation, but come on, they don't vanish into the future. What you should do is just consider time to not be a dimension. Give it some real thought. When you've got... time.
KKris
[SIZE=1][COLOR=blue]

Time still stuck in relative motion and distance, +ve and -ve co-ordinate systems.
amrit
farside after me publishing here hundred of post with exactly the same idea,
even more elaborated that yours,

now you discover "Warm water" again
all what you say i explain here often

it is called "The Theory of A-Temporality".

amrit


http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005EJTP....2e...7S

http://web.ionsys.com/~remedy/Consciousnes...arch%20Tool.htm

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...=0&#entry107762

http://www.boloji.com/perspective/076.htm

http://forums.hypography.com/theology-foru...e-buddhism.html

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=7808

and at least 100 more


Yes of course the motion within the clock slows down. But that's just it. The clock is measuring the motion, not the time.


see
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=4514&st=30

really warm water my dear
without mentioning me i think
i did read all
what a guy frasight you are
maybe you are shortside ?
amrit

one thing more
a term a-temporal space that you use
was first mention in my article

FROM SPACE-TIME TO A-TEMPORAL PHYSICAL SPACE,
Frontier Perspectives (2005)

http://www.temple.edu/cfs/vol14num1.html

use it as a reference next time

and book END OF TIME i publish in 1990
OK, check in NUK , Slovenija
amrit
farsight you cant now just step out
waiting for your comments on my previous comments
be sincere
sincerity is the shadow of NOW that you are in so deep

Farsight
Sorry amrit, I've never read any of your papers. This isn't a new concept, it began with "Presentism" in 1908, was overlooked when Godel wrote about it in the Schilpp papers in 1949, hinted at in Paul Davies' book "About Time" printed in 1995, and largely passed over in Julian Barbour's book "The End of Time" printed in 1999. There are other instances I'm sure. It's something I've thought about for a while, and when I read something ridiculous about wormholes and time travel I decided I wanted to write about it in words that a layman could understand. So, sorry, but no, I won't use your work as a reference.
amrit
i read all this books and no term is there:
A-Temporal space

more Paul Davies predicts travel into past
and Barbour discuss in his book that motion is an illusion !!!!???
Einstein and Godel speculated that there is no evidence of time in physical reality
but there is no word about a-temporal space in their book
UNIVERSE WITHOUT TIME (Jungrau)


what you wrote about time is great
your understanding of time is exact
physics would need that let say
a-temporal concept
to go on in understanding of the universe

after publishing here hundreds of post only few (2 or 3)
people support me
and now you with your post

maybe we could organize a conference together about
"A-TEMPORAL CONCEPT IN PHYSICS"

yours amrit


So, sorry, but no, I won't use your work as a reference.

why not ?
give me one good reason
amrit
1. with clocks we measure duration of motion
2.physical time is motion into atemporal space
3. motion we experience into linear concept of time, that is a part of the mind
4. space-time is a math model only, not physical reality
5. more atemporal space is curve slower the speed of motion, result is mercury delete, clocks mechanism are running slower into stronger gravity that is result of more curved atemporal space
6. in the universe there is no after and before, there is no past and future, universe is an atemporal phenomena
7. in the universe there is no arrow of time, arrow of time is a part of the time concept
8. gravity is atemporal in sense that no particle or wave travel between two objects in order to keep them together
9. gravity is result of atemporal space curvature
10. without watching the mind, witnessing the mind (MEDITATE) 9 points above can not be understood

this is finally my last post here,
one day you will gat it too
Farsight
amrit: I didn't use the word "A-temporal". And I won't use your work as a reference because I didn't get any ideas from you. Sorry.

Remember this is the third version of this essay. The first one is dated October 13th, see below, so why are you raising objection now?

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=9763&st=0
amrit
i published A-Temporal Theory between 2003 and 2005
see below:


1. Sorli A. (1990). Konec Casa (Timelessness), Ljubljana, Slovenia, self-publishing

2. Sorli A. Sorli K. (2003), Conscious Experience Of Time And Space. Spacetime & Substance, International Physical Journal, Vol 4, Num 5 (20) p. 235-238 http://spacetime.narod.ru/5-20-2003.html

3. Sorli A. (2004). Physical Time And Psychological Time.
Frontier Perspectives, Vol 13, Num 1

4. Sorli A. (2004). Time Is Change. Episteme, Perugia, Italy, Number 8
http://www.dipmat.unipg.it/~bartocci/ep8/ep8.htm

5. Sorli A. (2004), Timeless Space. Scientific and Medical Network
http://www.datadiwan.de/SciMedNet/Leadarts/sorli_space.htm

6. Sorli A, Sorli I. (2004). A-temporal Gravitation, Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol 1, Num 2 http://www.ejtp.com/articles/EJTP4

7. Sorli A, Sorli I. (2004). A-temporal Universe, Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol 3, Num 3 http://www.ejtp.com/articles/EJTP7

8. Sorli A. Sorli I. (2004). Mathematical Time And Physical Time In The Theory Of Relativity, Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol 1, Num 4 http://www.ejtp.com/articles/ejtpv1i4p25

9. Sorl A. Sorli I. (2005) From Space-time to A-Temporal Physical Space, Frontier Perspectives, Vol 14, Num 1

10. Sorli A., Sorli I. (2005). A-Temporal Gravitation And Hypothetical Gravitational waves
Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol 2, Num 5 www.ejtp.com

11. Sorli A. Sorli I. (2005). Consciousness As A Research Tool Into Space And Time,
Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol 2, Num 6 www.ejtp.com

12. Sorli A. A-Temporal Universe (2005) Scientific And Medical Network http://www.datadiwan.de/SciMedNet/Leadarts...i_atemporal.htm


SEND ME YOUR SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATION ON TIME NOW
amrit
amrit: I didn't use the word "A-temporal". And I won't use your work as a reference because I didn't get any ideas from you. Sorry.

Remember this is the third version of this essay. The first one is dated October 13th, see below, so why are you raising objection now?

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=9763&st=0


i publish about time here for a year
frim march 2005
when i publish mx theory i decided to spread it here
i see now with no much of success
however ........
id like to see your articles on time
to read before to go slip
you know what i mean
light reading
Farsight
I have no papers. Just this essay. I've never heard of A Sorli or read any of those papers. I didn't get any ideas from you, and the idea of timelessness dates back to Aristotle.
amrit
back to Buddha

but you know me my dear,see

Farsight Posted: Oct 17 2006, 04:55 PM Report this post · Quote


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Good post, Good Elf. I'll have good old browse of those links. Thanks.

amrit: let's just say time ain't what you think it is. Otherwise people just say "but you can't have motion if you haven't got any time" because they still don't get it.

This post has been edited by Farsight on Oct 17 2006, 04:59 PM
amrit
Farsight Posted: Nov 25 2006, 07:36 PM Report this post · Quote


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QUOTE
this means that no physical entity can attract two material objects by moving between them..


I think you're right amrit. The lack of a fundamental time has serious implications for gravity. I'm still wrestling with them. But I'm not sure "space is denser" is the right explanation.




http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=7808




what about that
farside you have to go to doctor
with your memory not all is right



amrit
farsight

see now you are still
your memory is blocked tottaly
pure guy
amrit
farside you do next

put in google 4 words

farside, amrit, time, gravitation

and you will see that you should now my work quite well
because you comment my post and me yours

now please your comments on your statement that you do not know my work on time

Farsight
amrit: no I don't know your work. I've never read any of your papers. I didn't even know you'd written any. Now find all my posts and look at the first one. I came on to this forum already talking about time. I had never heard of you, or your ideas.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?act=Sea...osts&hl=&st=400

First post was on September 30th 2006:

I read a book a while back by Julian Barbour, called "The End of Time".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Barbour
http://www.thymos.com/mind/barbour.html

Basically, it's saying that all there really is, is space and motion. Time is a product of our perception, rather like colour. I didn't think too much of it at the time. In fact, I thought "yeah yeah". However it's sunk in more and more. You mull it over, you find it fits this and it fits that, and after a while it starts to sound like better physics. Then you start noticing the language you've always used. Like "clocks go faster". And you find yourself saying but they aren't going anywhere.

It's getting a little scarey.
amrit
farsight was your ghost comunicating with me on this web side ?

Barbour says in his book that motion is an illusion, read well his book ............
and this statement is a pure nonsense
Farsight
I know what barbour says about motion and I don't agree with it. That's why I didn't pay too much attention to his book at the time. But look at the link in my first post on this forum:

http://www.thymos.com/mind/barbour.html

Einstein proved that Time is not absolute and said something about how we experience time in different ways depending on how we are moving. But he hardly explained what Time is. And nobody else ever has.

That's what drove me to write TIME EXPLAINED. Look back through all my posts. You can see I had the idea when I first appeared on this forum. In fact it's what got me banned from Physics Forum. And it's absolutely nothing to do with you.
amrit
great farsight
we have nothing in common
not even time
good luck

PS
read book of Barbour again
he says motion is an illusion
pure nonsense
brodix
I thought I might add some thoughts on space and time;


To begin with, geometry never fully incorporated the zero. Consider that points, lines and planes supposedly have a zero dimension. Well, 1x0=0. What they really have is a virtual dimension, not zero dimension. While a point can presumably be dimensionless, it is still a specific point of reference. The real zero for geometry would be empty space. It is the potential for any point, not a specific one. Also, three dimensions are a specific coordinate system, referenced by the zyx point, not space itself. Any number of coordinate systems, starting from any point, can be used to define the same space.

Time has two directions. The observer's arrow of time goes from past events to future events. On the other hand, these events go from being in the future to being in the past, so the arrow of time for the observed goes from the future to the past. To the hands of the clock, the face is going counterclockwise.

If we were to build a clock-like device to characterize motion, it would have many hands, going in both directions and the cumulative action would cancel out in a general equilibrium. With the concept of time, most of these hands are combined into the face, with a few going in one direction as coordinates for the reference point. Time is a component of motion, not the basis for it. The three dimensional frame of reference is not moving along an additional dimension. This subjective coordinate system is interacting with other such frames.

The unit of time goes from beginning to end, but the process of time is going toward the beginning of the next, leaving the old. The hour on the clock starts in the future and the hand passes from its beginning to its end and then moves on to the next, leaving the previous hour in the past. Days go from dawn to dusk, as the sun moves from east to west, but the reality is that the earth is rotating west to east and the sunlight is moving on to other time zones. Our individual lives are units of time going from beginning to end, while the process of living goes on to the next generation, shedding the old like dead skin. Compare it to a factory. The product moves from start to finish, but the production line is facing the other way, consuming raw material and expelling finished product. This relationship of the process and the unit is one of perspective. A unit at one level is a process at another and vice versa. What matters to the process isn't so much the end product, as it is the energy produced, in wages and profits, calories burned, etc, that propels the process forward, consuming more material.

The reason time appears as a series of instants is because most motion is effectively at the speed of light and our mind is a process of consuming information and creating conceptual units, called thoughts, much like the factory produces products. Otherwise, everything would be a blur.

Reality consists of energy recording information. As the amount of energy remains the same, old information is erased as new is recorded. Objective reality is the energy. Time is a function of the subjective information, as past and future do not physically exist because the energy to manifest them is currently tied up in the present. If another moment were to exist, it would require its own energy and so would not be on a continuum with our reality.

Time is not so much a projection out from the present event, as it is a coming together of factors to define what is present. The past being those influences which define current order and the future is determined by the energy to motivate that order. When order is an open set, it absorbs fresh energy, defining it and adapting to it, so that the future is a continuation of the past. When order is a closed set, the energy accumulates elsewhere and the future becomes a reaction to the past. Evolution and revolution. Essentially it is an version of the top down order/bottom up process relationship of Complexity Theory. Compare order, complexity and chaos, to past, present and future.

Even though we have come to understand there is no preferred frame of reference, when we define reality as three dimensional space, with this linear graph of motion, called time, as a fourth dimension, we are using the perspective of the generic point as the basis for explaining reality. A more objective description requires considering how many such points interact.

Temperature is a concept of measuring motion in the mass. It is the level of activity against a prevailing scale. At the human level, government statistics are a form of temperature reading of economic activity, while at the microscopic level, individual molecules are moving along particular trajectories and at specific velocities. To the individual, the linear connection between one moment and the next, as well as the whole mortality thing, is a fundamental reality, thus our assumption that time is the basis of motion, but to the larger group the preferred frame of reference becomes ever more diffuse. Politics is the process of organizing and refereeing competing perspectives, so it is the concept of temperature, the level of activity and energy, that most clearly defines political activity. While particular movements have their own historical perspectives, consideration of the past and concern for the future don't resonate across a fractured and fractious political landscape.
amrit
Time has two directions

yes in the mind only

in the universe there is no time direction
change happen into atemporal space
B_Sharp
QUOTE (Farsight+Dec 13 2006, 01:13 PM)
Yes of course the motion within the clock slows down. But that's just it. The clock is measuring the motion, not the time. The time isn't moving. And the clock only  moves like a car moves when its engine is "ticking" over. Which is not much.

Complete Nonsense.

Excellent writeup but still complete nonsense.

How many volts is the car battery?? Volts do not exist, only in your mind. The alternator magnetism does not exist either. The argument is nothing exists except mass.

It is a symantical meaningless argument that ANY physical quantity
of combined units cannot exist because it is derived math,
instead of mass of physics. kg/m^2, n * m, etc...
So combining m, s, g, v, h, e, watts, etc. quickly does not exist.

Therefore if time don't exist, neither does temperature, or voltage, or henries, or capacitance. A gallon of water doesn't exist, only the water.
That's nonsense.


Well I say that only time exists. And motion does not.
Prove it wrong. cool.gif

You cannot.

You say time is only an idea in your mind while motion exists.
I say motion is only an idea in your mind while time exists.

In order to prove that incorrect you must use "observation", which is at the core of science. But as an object is in motion, you don't see it, you only see reflected photons, converted by cones and rods, switching neurons, which become a memory. And that memory is just an "idea in your mind".

You cannot use "observation", which are only "mind resident ideas",
to show if time or motion is "mind resident" or "physical resident".
Please prove it without using observation.

My 1/8 gallon cup of cold water does exist right along side my 4:40PM watch. rolleyes.gif
Zephir
QUOTE (B_Sharp+Dec 30 2006, 02:45 AM)
Well I say that only time exists. And motion does not. Prove it wrong. You cannot.

Of course, the time and space are solely symmetric, reciprocal quantities. For example the blind bat (flitter-mouse) perceives the space by fast time intervals, measured by sound.

The bat doesn't estimate the distance by using of sound frequency in general, but by time intervals during short 5 msec pulses of FM ultrasound, similar to chattering and flicking (the real sound sample is linked below the waveform). So we can say, the bat perceives the distances just by some abstract time intervals...

user posted image User posted image

From this point of view, the space is real by the same way, like the time and such stance is solely reciprocal and the space can be perceived by the time (intervals) easily. If you're crossing some large room at the dark, you can use the stopwatches for safe navigating through such room.

Surprisingly enough, I'm repeating this triviality here again and again, whereas some people are always believing, they will invent something new by substituting the time intervals by the space curvature or vice-versa.

This is a reason, why the Aether Wave theory (AWT) uses both the concept of time, both the space in mutual duality, connected by the recursive solution of wave equation. I'm afraid, the complete description of reality without one of both these concepts cannot be effective.
mmax
Well you know what they say, time just keeps everything from happening at once, which is probably one of the simplest ways to describe something so conceptual. I suppose in the same vein you can say that space just keeps everything from happening at the same place.

Though I hope this doesn't spark some counterpoint about singularities.
Darren
Say, Farsight, whats all this business about time?, I see nothing strange about your post, except it gave Amrit some deja vu. Hence, you had great difficulty getting rid of him, perhaps you will be more careful next time? laugh.gif , You handled the situation well.
In fact, time is motion, was first coined by Mr E. 101 years ago, so whats new?
Time runs in space, i.e., spacetime, and not on your wrist. zzzZZZZZZ sleep.gif

Keep well
Darren
amrit
im running behind him in space only
Zephir
QUOTE (Darren+Dec 30 2006, 05:03 AM)
Say, Farsight, whats all this business about time?, I see nothing strange about your post, except it gave Amrit some deja vu.

The business is, the Farsight is the some shortseeing person, like the Amrit. So he will pass through all the objections, like the Amrit. Here's no other way, then copy&paste all my arguments again, because these people simply will not learn from foreign mistakes.

It has no sense to dispute, whether the time or space can be derived from matter motion. Therefore the atemporal space is the same simplification of reality, like the geometrodynamic concept. Both the time, both the space quantities are mutually related by wave equation and we're required to have some initial inertia to be able to work with them.
amrit
zeph imsure you are unaware that you do not understand yourself sometime
you talk like a pope
allknowingzeph

and what you say above has no much sense
Zephir
QUOTE (amrit+Dec 31 2006, 12:47 AM)
...zeph imsure you are unaware that you do not understand yourself sometime...

What I know, I can correct/refute your claims easily by using of Aether concept. The explanation of Universe nature is quite simple, but the people are constrained and restricted by their beliefs.
Turya
QUOTE (B_Sharp+Dec 29 2006, 11:45 PM)
Complete Nonsense.


Too easy conclusion, I'd say. St. Augustin was more carefull.

QUOTE
Well I say that only time exists. And motion does not.
Prove it wrong. 

You cannot.

You say time is only an idea in your mind while motion exists.
I say motion is only an idea in your mind while time exists.

If "exists", please SHOW us TIME. Also what then would be a sense for Time. In fact, Time is sensless. If you "think" (better SEE) of it you must admitt it is "in mind" only. Something what we learn. Child has not time-experience at all. Child lives in timelessness.

In fact, Time is not only motion. That could be somewhat missleading simplification. Namely,

Time is Dynamics (of every and each cosmic system itself). Every such system is a clock. Clock (its dynamics) iself is time. Otherwise that is empty "number" (as yours 4:40PM watch) which is pure social convention.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Well I say that only time exists. And motion does not.
Prove it wrong. 

You cannot.

You say time is only an idea in your mind while motion exists.
I say motion is only an idea in your mind while time exists.

If "exists", please SHOW us TIME. Also what then would be a sense for Time. In fact, Time is sensless. If you "think" (better SEE) of it you must admitt it is "in mind" only. Something what we learn. Child has not time-experience at all. Child lives in timelessness.

In fact, Time is not only motion. That could be somewhat missleading simplification. Namely,

Time is Dynamics (of every and each cosmic system itself). Every such system is a clock. Clock (its dynamics) iself is time. Otherwise that is empty "number" (as yours 4:40PM watch) which is pure social convention.

Therefore the atemporal space is the same simplification of reality, like the geometrodynamic concept. Both the time, both the space quantities are mutually related by wave equation and we're required to have some initial inertia to be able to work with them.

You overrated classical wave equ., I'm afraid. Temporal part in it d^2(Psi)/dt^2 is really only an using of time as useful mechanical concept (which, in fact, is Galilei's invention; as a clock, in his kinematical measuring, he uses his heartbeep). Problem could be that an invention becomes one of the pillars of modern western civilization. Even through: Time is money. Also, your bet example is not very good because it is more question of "signal processing" not of "time" itself at all. So,

TIME IS NOT DIMENSION IN REALITY. On the paper, enything is possible.

Regards

amrit
yes without this understanding physics will not go ahead
it will remain in space-time concept that is over after we publish in 2005
ATEMPORAL CONCEPT IN PHYSICS
Zephir
QUOTE (amrit+Dec 31 2006, 01:53 PM)
yes without this understanding physics will not go ahead, it will remain in space-time concept that is over

The physic doesn't need to throw out the concept of time, but to explain it's origin an mechanism of formation in deeper consequences. Despite the fact, the time/space/energy/mass concepts are just arbitrary concept simplifying the anthropocentric reality understanding, they cannot be removed totally from the system without the risk of lost of information.

Therefore, the question is not, whether the time or energy or space or whatever is real concepts or not (all we know, they were introduced by humans into nature understanding...) - but how they can be integrated with the other concepts. Because each such concept is to simplify/streamline the reality understanding - no less, no more. The elimination of such concept makes the reality understanding a much more complex and nontrivial. For example, without time concept is impossible to understand the whole Newtonian mechanic and concept of acceleration.

You can say easily, the time is artificial concept, but how do you want to understand the reality, after then? By AWT, the time is connected with the space via wave equation and they're in mutual duality, which is the source of new quality in reality understanding. Without time the wave equation solution becomes static Lagrangian solution, and as such incomplete description of reality.

I don't think, the Universe history is dummy concept, because I even believe, the whole mass of Universe is formed by the cumulation of causality events in the Universe history. We are formed by the materialized history of Universe by the same time, like the social consciousness is the materialization of human history evolution, or the genes are the materialization of biological evolution. The genes are very dense form of matter, in fact, because it slovens the spreading of causality events and mutations significantly. And the resistance against acceptation of AWT just demonstrates, how large inertia with respect of the information propagation has the social consciousness.
amrit
zeph i feel you are deeply sucked in your ideas
step out sometime
Farsight
QUOTE (B_Sharp+Dec 29 2006, 11:45 PM)
Complete Nonsense. Excellent writeup but still complete nonsense. How many volts is the car battery?? Volts do not exist, only in your mind. The alternator magnetism does not exist either. The argument is nothing exists except mass. It is a symantical meaningless argument that ANY physical quantity of combined units cannot exist because it is derived math, instead of mass of physics. kg/m^2, n * m, etc. So combining m, s, g, v, h, e, watts, etc. quickly does not exist. Therefore if time don't exist, neither does temperature, or voltage, or henries, or capacitance. A gallon of water doesn't exist, only the water. That's nonsense...


I think it's amazing how people dismiss logical analysis using any old silliness they can lay their hands on.
4Dguy
WoW,

If all motion stooped (electrons protons and light to name a few) there would not be any time left to discuss this. Time does have a meaning in the mind that allows us to categorize events that take place. Without the mind there is only motion in the present time. Color as farsight has said is also a mind concept that we as humans detect and define as color. Movement from one event to another changes the present or we would be frozen in time or motion. Our definition of time is motion. Our definition of color is red yellow and blue with various combinations of them. It is our detection system from life. When you die time will be meaningless. Until then try to enjoy your (present) time. Someone on a earlier post suggested time was the first dimension that gave meaning to the other three dimensions. So life is the mind concept of time. If you want to argue with the dead they would agree with you if they could. At the present time I have to disagree with you.

Every thing that has to do with life you can view as an illusion and in a sense be correct. But do not pick on just one that our illusion of life finds useful for our understanding of the illusion of physics. Its taking me a long time to gather my illusions. Are my illusions correct or are yours?
fivedoughnut
Hey, this is my madness on the subject.

Time is not a dimension it's merely an affect of interdimensionally propagative brane-waves as they interact in event space, being a timeless instant in which all things evolve.

(5-D's brainwave laugh.gif )
amrit
yes yes that is the point
this idea of timeless atemporal space will broke down the old and build the new
that also the most imaginative people can today not dream about
Zephir
QUOTE (Farsight+Dec 31 2006, 08:58 PM)
...it is a semantical meaningless argument that ANY physical quantity of combined units cannot exist because it is derived math, instead of mass of physics. kg/m^2, n * m, etc. So combining m, s, g, v, h, e, watts, etc. quickly does not exist....

Yes, of course. The official stance of AWT is, something exists, if it affects the reality by some predictable, causal way. For example, we can imagine a two civilizations, one is able to measure the time and use it in daily life, the second one not.

After some time we can observe the apparent progress at the case of first civilization, even from cosmic space perspective: it will exhibit a higher level of agriculture and foraging due the better organization of time. For example, the boundary of countries of the former socialistic camp were distinguishable in the Central Europe even from aerial prospective - just because of presence of communism and large co-operative farms. The picture bellow demonstrates the higher density of Aether foam on the aerial view of southern boundary of my country (if you have a Google Earth program installed, just click to the picture bellow). Why is it so?

user posted image

The concept of time speeds-up the energy spreading and the exchange in the civilization by the same way, like the surface gradient inside the soap foam. This is not just the question of anthropomorphous human society, but the biological systems, too. Many living creatures are having a biological clocks built-in. Therefore the organisms, which are able to determine the time better are surviving longer and they-ve an evolutionary advantage. Therefore we can say, the time concept can affect the reality by the same way, like all the other causality artifacts.
4Dguy
Amrit,

If everything is an illusion and time is an illusion why are you trying to remove the illusion of time? The reality of illusion as a timeless illusion goes against illusions logic. If everything we experience is an illusion why try to remove time from it? It is a very useful tool to our illusion (as is color). Am I speaking to the dead? That should be a unreal illusion.
amrit
all is real
also illusion is real, a kind of energy

the case with time is we do not distinquish between motion (physical time) and time as a mind frame

Farsight
QUOTE (4Dguy+Dec 31 2006, 07:37 PM)
WoW,

If all motion stooped (electrons protons and light to name a few) there would not be any time left to discuss this. Time does have a meaning in the mind that allows us to categorize events that take place. Without the mind there is only motion in the present time. Color as farsight has said is also a mind concept that we as humans detect and define as color. Movement from one event to another changes the present or we would be frozen in time or motion. Our definition of time is motion. Our definition of color is red yellow and blue with various combinations of them. It is our detection system from life. When you die time will be meaningless. Until then try to enjoy your (present) time. Someone on a earlier post suggested time was the first dimension that gave meaning to the other three dimensions. So life is the mind concept of time. If you want to argue with the dead they would agree with you if they could. At the present time I have to disagree with you.

Every thing that has to do with life you can view as an illusion and in a sense be correct. But do not pick on just one that our illusion of life finds useful for our understanding of the illusion of physics. Its taking me a long time to gather my illusions. Are my illusions correct or are yours?

Whoo, easy guys. Heat is a derived effect of motion, and when you put your hand on the fire you know it ain't no illusion. Time is like heat. It isn't just some illusion. It's just not as fundamental as maybe you thought it was.
amrit
Time is like heat

pure nonsense

physical time is motion of the heat ond not heat itself
Zephir
QUOTE (amrit+Jan 1 2007, 04:41 PM)
physical time is motion of the heat ond not heat itself

I can say easily, the motion is an illusion, too..

user posted image

Can you see some motion here? Well, as you can see, the time can manifest itself with different speed even WITHOUT some motion at all....
Turya
QUOTE (Zephir+Jan 1 2007, 02:26 PM)
I can say easily, the motion is an illusion, too..

Can you see some motion here? Well, as you can see, the time can manifest itself with different speed even WITHOUT some motion at all....

Once again, you missed the point: Time is Dynamics (of every and each cosmic system). What is 'time" in your example? Ticking of the processor which "produces" ticking of pixels on the screen.

So, every and each cosmic system IS a Clock and that is ONLY TIME. From the beginning of new (mechanical) era and related civilization, we (Galilei as a first one) use clocks for measuring motion. Moreover, without Harisson's clock the very same civilization couldn't become global.

Changing "concept"/experience of time we are changing our entire picture of the world, science eventually. In fact, we have to change the civilization.

SR/GR and similar light-kinematical-geometrical mindplays are pure illusions. Cosmos is not Illusion. Intelect produces illusions, simple mind certanly not.

Zephir
QUOTE (Turya+Jan 1 2007, 10:07 PM)
What is 'time" in your example?

The picture illustrates star twinkling or some simmilar process, here's no processor at all.
amrit
zeph you simpli did not get it yet

turya says

TIME IS DYNAMICS

your star sprinkling too is time

Farsight
Like Bukh pointed out on the other thread referring back to something Zephir and I were talking about in September, the line between motion and change can get very very thin.
4Dguy
Farsight,

QUOTE
Like Bukh pointed out on the other thread referring back to something Zephir and I were talking about in September, the line between motion and change can get very very thin.


Planck's length thin I would suspect.
Zephir
QUOTE (Farsight+Jan 2 2007, 01:36 PM)
the line between motion and change can get very very thin

How I discussed with amrit before year, the motion is special case of change, i.e. the change of location or spatial distribution.
4Dguy
Farsight,

QUOTE
Whoo, easy guys. Heat is a derived effect of motion, and when you put your hand on the fire you know it ain't no illusion. Time is like heat. It isn't just some illusion. It's just not as fundamental as maybe you thought it was.


Color is a derived effect, motion is a derived effect, sound is a derived effect, heat is a derived effect, time is a derived effect of our detection system and finally life is a derived effect. The illusion of being burned is comforted with the illusion of time.
Bytor
I just read your original post and think it is a great explanation of time. I totally agree. Time has been the thorn in many of those thorny questions. Ex. Where is the border of the universe? What is it like? How did the Universe bang without a cause? How long is infinity? If a frog wants to jump off the edge of a table, but is only allowed to jump 1/2 the distance to edge every time, given a infinite amount of time, will it ever make it off the table?
All these questions are irrelevant if time was just a counterpart to space and motion. Good Post!
Farsight
Thanks Bytor.
amrit
QUOTE (Bytor+Jan 7 2007, 08:36 AM)
I just read your original post and think it is a great explanation of time. I totally agree. Time has been the thorn in many of those thorny questions. Ex. Where is the border of the universe? What is it like? How did the Universe bang without a cause? How long is infinity? If a frog wants to jump off the edge of a table, but is only allowed to jump 1/2 the distance to edge every time, given a infinite amount of time, will it ever make it off the table?
All these questions are irrelevant if time was just a counterpart to space and motion. Good Post!

what a nonsense all that
you speak as politician
talking a lot without saying anything
Bytor
A politician, what is that supposed to mean? I am simply giving Farsight a compliment. Look in the mirror and honestly ask yourself why you made such a statement. I am sure others here know that answer just by reading your prior posts. It may not come as easy to you. Say what you will amrit, from now on I have not the time to respond to useless comments.
On a more positive note I have noticed a negative vibe regarding Barbour claiming that motion is an illusion. If total existence was static (without time), and total existence included all possible things that could be, could not motion be what is revealed in the snapshots of all things that exist? Could not all things that could be, exist, and time and motion being the same thing, dictate how we experience our universe?
Farsight
amrit seems to think he owns the idea that time is not fundamental, Bytor. He's never heard of Aristotle or Presentism, and is jealous of me. See recent posts where he was accusing me of nicking his ideas, despite having missed my very first post back in September closely followed by the first-cut version of this essay. Grrrr.

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~histor...ics/Time_1.html

Anyhow. Julian Barbour does tend to think in terms of a timeless "block" universe. Or he did when he wrote The End of Time:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/barbour/barbour_p1.html

I'm all for looking at time in a different way, but not in terms of anything even remotely resembling a "block" universe. I want to be ontological, we see motion in a non-block universe, and IMHO making an extra dimension out of our measure of this motion is an abstraction too far.
antpin
How can time be relative to the speed of light, if the speed of everything is inversely proportional time?
amrit
QUOTE (antpin+Jan 9 2007, 10:21 PM)
How can time be relative to the speed of light, if the speed of everything is inversely proportional time?


time is not relative to the speed of light
nothing is relative to the speed of light

sped of light is same in all inertial sistems and same in all different area of space with different gravity force

speed of material change is relative regarding to different inertial sistems and strength of gravity, speed of clocks is different too

material change and clocks too run into atemporal universe, there is no physical time and so time can not be relative to anything material

time is a mind concept into which we experience material change


your questions shows clearly you do not understand the subject of time
maybe farsight will help you know, he knows subject better
i would love to heare his answer of your question
4Dguy
Antpin,

QUOTE
How can time be relative to the speed of light, if the speed of everything is inversely proportional time?


The answer is time is the speed of light. They are confounded. What is the speed of time? Time can be experienced at different rates and they are all in the present. That is the reason behind the thinking time has no meaning. Basically electrons have a cycle rate. That cycle rate is effected by gravity and acceleration. Light is also effected by gravity and acceleration. The amount that light is effected is the same amount relative to time. This is why the speed of light is the same in every frame. Light is a wave of space energy and mass removes space energy to allow movement. Space energy /Mass= C^2 and space energy= C^2 = Time. So the speed of light is the same in every frame and the speed of light is not inversely proportional to time it is time.

Amrit there was a time when you did not understand time the way you think of time now.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How can time be relative to the speed of light, if the speed of everything is inversely proportional time?


The answer is time is the speed of light. They are confounded. What is the speed of time? Time can be experienced at different rates and they are all in the present. That is the reason behind the thinking time has no meaning. Basically electrons have a cycle rate. That cycle rate is effected by gravity and acceleration. Light is also effected by gravity and acceleration. The amount that light is effected is the same amount relative to time. This is why the speed of light is the same in every frame. Light is a wave of space energy and mass removes space energy to allow movement. Space energy /Mass= C^2 and space energy= C^2 = Time. So the speed of light is the same in every frame and the speed of light is not inversely proportional to time it is time.

Amrit there was a time when you did not understand time the way you think of time now.

time is not relative to the speed of light
nothing is relative to the speed of light


How about a photon?

QUOTE
sped of light is same in all inertial sistems and same in all different area of space with different gravity force


The speed of light is timed to be the same in every frame if you use that frames clock.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
sped of light is same in all inertial sistems and same in all different area of space with different gravity force


The speed of light is timed to be the same in every frame if you use that frames clock.

speed of material change is relative regarding to different inertial sistems and strength of gravity, speed of clocks is different too

material change and clocks too run into atemporal universe, there is no physical time and so time can not be relative to anything material


It is not relative to material but it is relative to the energy of space. If space were atemporal light would not travel there.

QUOTE
time is a mind concept into which we experience material change


Yes, if you are a rock it is unlikely that the abstract thought of time would be considered. A rock has no concept of time. Time is a life construct but non life has age (like revolutions of a planet or how many moons).
Farsight
antpin:

I'd go along with what 4Dguy says. In a weird kind of way the speed of light is the "speed of time". It's hard to get your head round this. The thing to bear in mind is that c isn't really a speed. That 300,000km/s is a conversion factor between the thing we call distance and the thing we call time. Both are defined in terms of light propagation. Think about kinetic energy and momentum: you divide kinetic energy by c to get momentum. But a cannonball travelling at 1000km/s is just a mass m in motion with velocity v. Talking about kinetic energy and momentum here are two different ways of looking at the same thing, but one is in a way closer to what's actually there.

When we're talking about space and time we talk about "spacetime" because again it's two different ways of looking at the same thing. And one way of looking at this thing is closer to what's actually there. What's actually there is space, with its properties that allow light to propagate a distance and define the thing we call time. Read the TIME EXPLAINED essay for more details. Also see MASS EXPLAINED to read about how an electron can be construed as a photon wrapped into a moebius loop. Basically, we're made out of light, so the "speed of light" will always look the same to us.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=11665&st=0
amrit
4d guy

The answer is time is the speed of light.

amrit

no light movement is material change into a-temporal space[B] huh.gif

time is mind frame into which we experience motion of light into atemporal space
ASSBAG
Time is the universe. Everything else is relative.
amrit
yes your intelligence too is relative
better keep quite than posting this pointless stuf


Time is the universe. Everything else is relative.

what do you mean ??????????
what an immence nonsense
are you aware of it ????
ASSBAG
Edit.
4Dguy
Amrit,

Time is through out the universe in my mind. From now on when I say time I mean it to be in my mind. When I die time will be meaningless to me. I kind of think everyone knows that so time is in the mind can we move on with just saying time? Saying mind time seems to be allot like saying sound vibrations. It unnecessary and tiring.
amrit
yes 4d guy right



Edit.

This post has been edited by ASSBAG on Yesterday at 10:27 PM[COLOR=red]

you edit my dear
Edoesn't=Mc^2
I've always thought that 'real' time is simply measured entropy? 'Imaginary' time (like a clock on the wall or a calendar) is actually nonsensical as regards actual 'time'? Imaginary time is only in our heads.
THoR
Time is not a tangible. It is neither a field nor a fabric. It is nothing more nor less than a measurement. As subject 'X' changes from state #1 to state #2, subject 'Y' changes from state #3 to state #4 or as subject '1' changes from position #A to position #B, subject '2' changes from position #C to position #D. It is simply the comparison of two (or more) sequences. It is no different than measuring distance with a ruler, but instead of evaluating an unknown length against a standard unit, you are measuring the quantity of change occurring within some procedure against the progress of some standard event - like a rotation of the planet or the vibration of a cesium atom.

Perception can alter the accuracy of measurement, so the result may be skewed by things like myopia and the speed of light. Also if the rate of YOUR ambient metabolism increases, time will SEEM to slow down - and if it slows (as in sleep) time will seem to accelerate.

Mathematically it is convenient to consider time as a 'dimension' but other than the physical changes it measures, it has no separate existence or reality of its own.

4Dguy
THoR,

QUOTE
it has no separate existence or reality of its own.


We think of it as real just like we think of life as real. Does life have a reality of its own?
Farsight
Like somebody said a while back, it's a bit like Love.
amrit
How can time be relative to the speed of light, if the speed of everything is inversely proportional time?

amrit
who can answer this question i pay him two weeks in French Polinesia
Edoesn't=Mc^2
Time and c definitely have a relationship as regards visual processing of information, within the human (and probably animal as well) brain anyway.
czeslaw
Why GPS clocs slows down in stronger gravity and faster movement ?

En empty space does not exist. There is a Vacuum Energy. In my idea Vacuum Energy is an Energy of the Gravotational Field. Energy means oscillations. The rest mass particle has inner oscillating structure (quarks) E=mc^2=hn.
The particle oscillate additionally with its space around and this oscillations are distributed into the space. Its frequency is proportional to the mass of the particle it is creating a gravitational field.
Photons of the radiation are distributed on the carrying gravitational field energy wave. Every atoms and every material is build on this oscillating stof.
The oscillations create a structure of the discrete space (ether, Higgs field). There is a constant time when the information goes from one discrete space element to another.
Stronger gravity-more oscillations-denser structure-slower information transfer
In relativistic velocity
Faster velocity-object passes more oscillations-denser structure-slower transfer
In every reference frame is "c" constant but an observer does see different Universe.
4Dguy
czeslaw,

[QUOTE]En empty space does not exist. There is a Vacuum Energy. In my idea Vacuum Energy is an Energy of the Gravotational Field. Energy means En empty space does not exist. There is a Vacuum Energy. In my idea Vacuum Energy is an Energy of the Gravotational Field. Energy means oscillations. The rest mass particle has inner oscillating structure (quarks) E=mc^2=hn.
The particle oscillate additionally with its space around and this oscillations are distributed into the space. Its frequency is proportional to the mass of the particle it is creating a gravitational field. [QUOTE]

We agree there is vacuum energy but a particle gets its energy from space energy and it effects the space around it. Do you mean the rest mass particle has an oscillating structure that creates the oscillation itself?

[/QUOTE]Stronger gravity-more oscillations-denser structure-slower information transfer
In relativistic velocity[QUOTE]

Stronger gravity less oscillations (because mass has entropy) A less dense structure (because of the lensing effect we see it is expanded) Information slows down in gravity if it were more dense it would speed up because the transfer would be quicker. More dense faster oscillations (more energy).
amrit
empty space exists, it is made out of QS quanta of space
this QS are vaccum energy
QS have no form, they are formless,
matter has form

matter is energy of space that has taken form
4Dguy
Amrit,

QUOTE
empty space exists, it is made out of QS quanta of space


What is QS quanta of space?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
empty space exists, it is made out of QS quanta of space


What is QS quanta of space?

this QS are vaccum energy


Than how is it empty?

QUOTE
QS have no form, they are formless,


Is something there or not there is only one choice.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
QS have no form, they are formless,


Is something there or not there is only one choice.

matter has form

matter is energy of space that has taken form


OK, than what is the energy before it takes the form of matter?
You can not say there is something there and then say there is nothing there.
bukh
amrit:
matter has form
matter is energy of space that has taken form

4Dguy:
OK, than what is the energy before it takes the form of matter?
You can not say there is something there and then say there is nothing there.

perhaps one could say that empty space is motion in absolute equilibrium / symmetri
czeslaw
I found an interesting link:
http://www.blazelabs.com/f-p-time.asp
4Dguy
bukh,

QUOTE
perhaps one could say that empty space is motion in absolute equilibrium / symmetri


Yes and that =time=energy.

czeslaw,

Yes that was interesting but we are always in the present no matter how fast or slow the electron movement is in your environment.
amrit
QUOTE (4Dguy+Jan 14 2007, 03:21 PM)
bukh,



Yes and that =time=energy.

czeslaw,

Yes that was interesting but we are always in the present no matter how fast or slow the electron movement is in your environment.

energy fluctuation space - matter - space is permanent,
in the universe only constant is change
change do not run in time, change itself is atemporal

we give sense of duration to a change by measuring it

time is a mind concept into which we experience change
time is a man invention according to Mach and Einstein
Farsight
See Energy Explained, where I talk about tension and stress, and Mass Explained where I talk about momentum pinned down as inertia.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=10899&st=0

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=11665&st=0
amrit
dense energy of space under gravitational force that depends on density of space we experience as mass

motion of energy into space we experience as time

actually mass and time are mind concepts
4Dguy
Amrit,

I know You are not going to believe this but mass has no energy. Mass is frozen energy. Solid mass in this realm can release space energy because it is a conduit to where the real energy ocean exists. Atoms and planets do not move for nothing it is the energy of space that keeps things moving. You are being tricked because you do not see the man behind the curtain(wizard of Oz). Magicians use similar tricks that we are being tricked by. You are so familiar with atoms moving that you do not realize something is doing it. Believe in magic if you like but reality is mechanical not magical! A-temporal is the belief in magic, I do not care what Einstein said about time. He waffled back and forth about an aether (energy). GR and SR are correct. E=MC^2 is correct. Now it is up to us to find out why he was correct. Mathematics will not produce a theory to the mechanics. It is up to us for he is no longer here.
amrit
sorry i cant imagine someone or something is pushing atoms and stellar objects

i see motion as the result of dynamic equilibrium, as the result of position in space and motion itself

if someone or something should push universe to move, he or it would be tired already and universe would stop

universe is a system with no creation and no end
universe is permanent, universe is atemporal

take it or not, it is so
i can not help
4Dguy
Amrit,

QUOTE
if someone or something should push universe to move, he or it would be tired already and universe would stop


Why are atoms still moving ? Do they not get tired?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
if someone or something should push universe to move, he or it would be tired already and universe would stop


Why are atoms still moving ? Do they not get tired?

sorry i cant imagine someone or something is pushing atoms and stellar objects


Than you believe in magic.

Bukh

QUOTE
amrit:
matter has form
matter is energy of space that has taken form

4Dguy:
OK, than what is the energy before it takes the form of matter?
You can not say there is something there and then say there is nothing there.

perhaps one could say that empty space is motion in absolute equilibrium / symmetri


Mass is frozen energy and does not have any (like a black hole in our galaxy). E=MC^2 energy and mass are separate. Mass is a conduit for space energy. Consider a electron a black hole in our galaxy. Our universe might be an atom.
amrit
Our universe might be an atom.

no no better a quark
ChaosTheory
The universe's rotational axis can be explained in dozens of theories.

Graviational rotation matrix.
Natural occurances involving a large amount of distorted quantum flux's and spacial anomolies.
Hell the universe could be a living being for all we know and its constant fluctual movements could be its growth.

Nothing is out of question and nothing is out of sensible criticism, there are just times when people have the weirdest and strangest theories that make no sense.

It's usually those that make the most sense later on...
bukh
hej amrit

why not a quark ?

yes funny - I was just to ask the same - perhaps would have suggested someting even smaller.

What is big - what is small - as long as we travel from infinitisimally big to infitissimally small.

Anyway have you any comments to the simple model of BB - which could be Small Bang - and where one do not need to push - see "Nothingness"
Turya
QUOTE (ChaosTheory+Jan 16 2007, 07:36 PM)
The universe's rotational axis can be explained in dozens of theories.

Graviational rotation matrix.
Natural occurances involving a large amount of distorted quantum flux's and spacial anomolies.
Hell the universe could be a living being for all we know and its constant fluctual movements could be its growth.

Nothing is out of question and nothing is out of sensible criticism, there are just times when people have the weirdest and strangest theories that make no sense.

It's usually those that make the most sense later on...

Insightfull indeed. K. Goedel himself had a (rejecterd) theory of rotating Universe.

Cosmos has its quite complex wave kind of Dynamics and because of that only it/he has its Time.

Ivars
QUOTE
Cosmos has its quite complex wave kind of Dynamics and because of that only it/he has its Time


There does not exist neither theory of turbulence, nor vortex breakdown structures, so to presume that it is NOT possible to have resonance environment where shapes like brain and fractals can grow out of Aether - well it is at least to cut away a huge potential where to lok for answers.

Whole Universe can be created as a resonance structure of a complex vortex bubles and other shapes. With fractal type matter hanging on them loosely ( air) somewhat loosely ( us) , tightly ( rocks) , very tightly ( crystals) .

It does not exclude freedom of choice as, as we can see from soap bubbles, reosnance structures move in space, reattach themselves , and survive if they act sensibly.

I guess it is totally realistic. At least as a hypothesis.

Zephir
QUOTE (Ivars+Jan 17 2007, 12:36 AM)
It does not exclude freedom of choice as, as we can see from soap bubbles, resonance structures move in space, reattach themselves , and survive if they act sensibly.

The Aether foam of AWT is very dynamic. The introducing of energy is making such foam more dense and vice-versa without apparent hysteresis by the similar way, like the shaking of the soap foam in vacuo. I suppose, the foam is making dense by introducing of new nested surfaces inside the existing foam bubbles by the similar way, like the classical soap foam. The exact model of aether foam compactification should be the subject of thorough numeric simulations, because the very similar process occurs during condensation of spongy density fluctuations in supercritical vapor. By another words, the formation of particles in vacuum should be considered as a process of classical physic, in fact. If we can imagine the formation of droplets in condensing foam, we should be able to imagine the formation of particles from quantum foam by introducing of energy at the same time, because both these processes are quite similar in its principle.

user posted image user posted image user posted image user posted image

BTW, the quite similar model was proposed by some LQG theorists (Lee Smolin, in particular), although I've never met with the Aether and massive environment concepts in explanations of LQG theory. It can serve as the evidence, the theoretical physic can guess a surprisingly exact model of reality without apparent understanding of fundamental consequences. The LQG theorists simply have guessed the mechanical foam model without considering of Newtonian mechanic at all by the same way. like the string theorists have developed the membrane model by the blind evolution of different string models. This is interesting observation even from evolutionary point of view. It demonstrates, the conceptual insights of reality can develop by the same way. like the reality as such and they can even converge to the similar result.

It should be pointed out, the protosimplex model of Heim's theory is based on the same approach, like the spin foam of M-theory or the brane network of M-theory. The simplex is the polygonal foam structure as well and all these concepts are nearly equivalent to mechanic foam of AWT. The most funny thing is, all groups of theorists are believing, their models are mutually incompatible! They cannot see the similarities of all these concepts through a thick layer of underlying math, which prohibits the intuitive understanding. It can serve as the indirect evidence of AWT, simply because it demonstrates, all the most significant mainstream theories are converging to the conceptually very same model of reality.

The purpose of AWT insights is not to refute/disprove these partial insights and understanding achievements - but to explain and reconcile all of them. Simply because the general theory of reality should be a general theory of all the existing theories of reality as well. The AWT supposes, even the theories of reality are part of this reality, simply they affect the further development of reality by the same way, like all the other artifact. For example, the presence of some physical theory in human society can accelerate the further development of such society by the same way. like the presence of gravitational field accelerates the energy spreading in other system. If something affects the reality by tangible way, it should be real by the same way.

We can even imagine the process of new theories formation like the process of condensation of less or more stochastic and mutually inconsistent theories. The only relevant criterion of such condensation remains the very same, like at the case of all the other examples of spontaneous symmetry breaking: the increasing of the overall intensity of energy spreading inside the system. The existence of new theory has no meaning, if it doesn't enable to increase the intensity of causal energy exchange throughout human civilization - no matter, how progressive such theory appears from long-term perspective.
Ivars
I agree to what Zephir writes; There is One theory behind all theories, it is classical but not quite ( the source of motion can not be classical, I guess) , it is scalable, and most theories are cuts from this theorie, approximations to a certain application. And vortices, light, particles and life is created in the same way, within the same theory, different discrete levels of complexity. AWT is not so far from it, at least pictures and analogies from AWT ring true to my intuition in many cases.

And I would also agree with this:

QUOTE
The existence of new theory has no meaning, if it doesn't enable to increase the intensity of causal energy exchange throughout human civilization - no matter, how progressive such theory appears from long-term perspective.


It there is a theory which allows fundamental understanding of Nature ( not exact predicting, though it might be possible with a good computer runing >>10^67 operations/sec , but understanding- which is when brain works as such computer) it may have very big impact on the way people organize and interact. And how they look, as well.
amrit
QUOTE (bukh+Jan 16 2007, 07:37 PM)
hej amrit

why not a quark ?

yes funny - I was just to ask the same - perhaps would have suggested someting even smaller.

What is big - what is small - as long as we travel from infinitisimally big to infitissimally small.

Anyway have you any comments to the simple model of BB - which could be Small Bang - and where one do not need to push - see "Nothingness"

universe is a sistem with a constant entropy
there is no evolution in the universe
there is only atemporal dynamics

time is an ilusion, a mind invention

chears

WE LIVE INTO NOW
bukh
hej amrit

"time is an ilusion, a mind invention"

Yes, I gave up time long ago - "BB - not 14 Billion"

But still it would be interesting if you have comments to Small Bang
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