I saw this article in B Heims Thread and I though that I should answer it even though I have mentioned this Relativistic effect many times.
Hubble detects motion in jet from M87 at apparent 6X speed of light: Metronhead
This is quite clearly the result of a Jet traveling at 98% the speed of light (as reported) toward the direction of the earth from M687. This means that the light wavefronts are only just ahead of the actual Jet itself all the way to earth. These wavefronts travel all the way to earth and arrive as a compressed sequence similar to fast forwarding a video recorder up to the time the Jet finally "hits". If the Jet was aimed at earth it will "soon arrive" though mightily attenuated in intensity due to its long voyage through space from the Quasar to Earth. It will be remarkably "fresh" since it will have undergone a great deal of time dilation when it "hits" the Earth. At 98 percent he speed of light it "components" will age only marginally on it long journey to the Earth.
The "speed" of six times the speed of light will be the speed an imaginary rocket traveling at the front of the wavefront of the jet and it would appear to be traveling at 6C to any of its occupants. This is because the imaginary "occupants" are aging at only one sixth the rate we on earth are aging. Note that the "speedo" on the dash would show six times the speed of light. The speed of the rocket when viewed by any onlookers who were along the path of travel of the Jet to earth and the imaginary rocket would see that on comparison of synchronized clocks and a suitable proximity along the path of the progressing event would show that our travelers are only moving at 98% the speed of light and if the observers could get a glimpse inside the rocket would see the rocket's clock running slow by a factor of 6. That is for each six seconds that elapses in the Earth centered inertial frame of reference (and the observer frame of reference) only one second will elapse in the rocket and to the crew. The crew of the rocket will not "internally" notice this except that as they rapidly approach the earth traveling with the front of the jet they too will see the events passing on earth as if they were watching a fast forwarded video. The reverse of the case as seen from the Earth. Both the Rocket and Observers on earth will both notice a strange "blue" coloration to the visual effects since at each individual band of frequencies being emitted by either, the base frequency has been increased because the distance between the crests of the waves are "compressed" increasing the frequency. There is no increase in the velocity of the light as would be measured by all observers and we see these optical effects from the jet on Earth just before it arrives but speeded up by six times and up to when it finally arrives at six times the frequency. A pure relativistic optical phenomena.
The text file associated with this page confirms this phenomena...
HUBBLE DETECTS FASTER-THAN-LIGHT MOTION IN GALAXY M87
The NASA Web Page on M87
QUOTE (From the NASA document at the top of this link... +)
``It's an illusion created by the finite speed of light and rapid motion," Biretta said. ``Our present understanding is that this `superluminal motion' occurs when these clouds move towards Earth at speeds very close to that of light, in this case, more than 98 percent of the speed of light. At these speeds the clouds nearly keep pace with the light they emit as they move towards Earth, so when the light finally reaches us, the motion appears much more rapid than the speed of light. Since the moving clouds travel slightly slower than the speed of light, they do not actually violate Einstein's theory of relativity which sets light as the speed limit."
So you see this is a real effect and you can see it in principle in the world so it should stop all discussion about Special Relativity not being a real phenomenon and settle the issue about "absolute frames of reference". Of course the imaginary clock times you will just have to take as a "given" but in principle this would be the case.
There is an extra "add on" I would put to you. If the jet, and thus the "imaginary rocket", had been accelerated by purely gravitational means rather than "non-inertial" means (the frame of the rocket "dragged" to 98% the speed of light as an inertial frame) then in principle this jet (and rocket) is traveling toward us in "real time" and due to frame dragging will actually have traveled here at an effective speed of six times the speed of light. This is because it is traveling through spacial expansion and not through simply inertial acceleration (rocket motor boosts).
These plumes might connect distant regions of space "inertially" if gravity itself was used to "boost" the "system" to those speeds. This would then be like a mini-Hubble Expansion directed toward the Earth in a "plume". The temporal effect are the same but the absolute elapsed time relative to the "source" would be greatly "diminished". I do not actually know how these plumes were ejected by the central Black Hole and I only used this point to illustrate how space can interpose a "reverse Rindler Foliation" bringing parts of our Universe together "apparently superluminally". I would like you all to think about these points. The first one is Special Relativity and the Second one is a mixture of Special and General Relativity giving people what they seem to want ... an effective faster than light travel. I published a paper on this effect over 30 years ago (without the Jet).
There are ways to accomplish this process without some kind of exploding Black Hole... He he he! You will find all this explained in my posts going back about 2 years.
Cheers
So you see this is a real effect and you can see it in principle in the world so it should stop all discussion about Special Relativity not being a real phenomenon and settle the issue about "absolute frames of reference". Of course the imaginary clock times you will just have to take as a "given" but in principle this would be the case.
There is an extra "add on" I would put to you. If the jet, and thus the "imaginary rocket", had been accelerated by purely gravitational means rather than "non-inertial" means (the frame of the rocket "dragged" to 98% the speed of light as an inertial frame) then in principle this jet (and rocket) is traveling toward us in "real time" and due to frame dragging will actually have traveled here at an effective speed of six times the speed of light. This is because it is traveling through spacial expansion and not through simply inertial acceleration (rocket motor boosts).
These plumes might connect distant regions of space "inertially" if gravity itself was used to "boost" the "system" to those speeds. This would then be like a mini-Hubble Expansion directed toward the Earth in a "plume". The temporal effect are the same but the absolute elapsed time relative to the "source" would be greatly "diminished". I do not actually know how these plumes were ejected by the central Black Hole and I only used this point to illustrate how space can interpose a "reverse Rindler Foliation" bringing parts of our Universe together "apparently superluminally". I would like you all to think about these points. The first one is Special Relativity and the Second one is a mixture of Special and General Relativity giving people what they seem to want ... an effective faster than light travel. I published a paper on this effect over 30 years ago (without the Jet).
There are ways to accomplish this process without some kind of exploding Black Hole... He he he! You will find all this explained in my posts going back about 2 years.Cheers
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 5 2006, 11:02 AM)
when these clouds move towards Earth at speeds very close to that of light, in this case, more than 98 percent of the speed of light
It's nonsense, such explanation doesn't require any speed "very close to that of light" at all. Instead of this, the core gas inside the core can be a full statical, in fact - the rest is just a trick of the nature for stupid people fooling. It has nothing to do with some "Relativity effects", of course.
The explanation of the "superluminal core speed" can be fortunately a quite simple, as it's obvious, the jet core has existed a long time ago, it just begun to shine at nearby zones gradually by such way, it seems, such zones are moving by the superluminal speed ("burning zone effect"). The core mass distribution connected with the true inertial mass motion has evolved a much more slowly, indeed. The gradual effect is caused by the mass density gradient in core. Such gradient can switch on the radiative processes inside core gradually over space in very short period of time, although they're totally isolated with respect of the information radiative spreading.
It can be a similar effect, like the virtual "motion" of spiral arms in galaxies. But such arms aren't moving, in fact. Instead of this, this is a gradual burning effect of hydrogen in interstellar gas similar to burning the zone of grass, which is standing at place during this, of course. Just the shining zone of the thermonuclear chain reaction inside the stars of similar generation moves.
It can serve as the excellent demo for Amrit, the time isn't just perceived by the motion, but the change, too. The movement itself is just a special kind of change, the change of inertial vacuum density distribution over time. The time arrow needn't necessarily to be connected with the inertial motion at all (the radiative time vs. thermodynamical time vs. cosmological time vs psychological time).
The current physic distinguishes a lot of "times", not all of it are connected with the motion necessarily and they can even have a quite different directions (i.e. "time arrow") mutually at the same moment. From this point of view, the physical time isn't some homogeneous quantity at all. It's obvious, our Amrit simply doesn't know about it.
The attempts to explain the supposed "Relativity effect" violating the relativity by some other "Relativity effects" clearly demonstrates, as the relativity has became a subject of noncritical belief - it means a true religion inside the current scientific community ("....if I don't understand something, it should be a Relativity/Quantum effect, just because nobody understands in Relativity/Quantum theory, too").
Please, never accept the explanation/theory, which you're don't understand fully as a subject of belief or disbelief! You should be always very critical at this moment. The same as the belief or disbelief to Aether existence.
It's nonsense, such explanation doesn't require any speed "very close to that of light" at all. Instead of this, the core gas inside the core can be a full statical, in fact - the rest is just a trick of the nature for stupid people fooling. It has nothing to do with some "Relativity effects", of course.
The explanation of the "superluminal core speed" can be fortunately a quite simple, as it's obvious, the jet core has existed a long time ago, it just begun to shine at nearby zones gradually by such way, it seems, such zones are moving by the superluminal speed ("burning zone effect"). The core mass distribution connected with the true inertial mass motion has evolved a much more slowly, indeed. The gradual effect is caused by the mass density gradient in core. Such gradient can switch on the radiative processes inside core gradually over space in very short period of time, although they're totally isolated with respect of the information radiative spreading.
It can be a similar effect, like the virtual "motion" of spiral arms in galaxies. But such arms aren't moving, in fact. Instead of this, this is a gradual burning effect of hydrogen in interstellar gas similar to burning the zone of grass, which is standing at place during this, of course. Just the shining zone of the thermonuclear chain reaction inside the stars of similar generation moves.
It can serve as the excellent demo for Amrit, the time isn't just perceived by the motion, but the change, too. The movement itself is just a special kind of change, the change of inertial vacuum density distribution over time. The time arrow needn't necessarily to be connected with the inertial motion at all (the radiative time vs. thermodynamical time vs. cosmological time vs psychological time).
The current physic distinguishes a lot of "times", not all of it are connected with the motion necessarily and they can even have a quite different directions (i.e. "time arrow") mutually at the same moment. From this point of view, the physical time isn't some homogeneous quantity at all. It's obvious, our Amrit simply doesn't know about it.
The attempts to explain the supposed "Relativity effect" violating the relativity by some other "Relativity effects" clearly demonstrates, as the relativity has became a subject of noncritical belief - it means a true religion inside the current scientific community ("....if I don't understand something, it should be a Relativity/Quantum effect, just because nobody understands in Relativity/Quantum theory, too").
Please, never accept the explanation/theory, which you're don't understand fully as a subject of belief or disbelief! You should be always very critical at this moment. The same as the belief or disbelief to Aether existence.
Hi zephir,
References please...
References please...
QUOTE (Zephir Posted on Mar 5 2006+ 12:11 PM)
"....if I don't understand something, it should be a Relativity/Quantum effect, just because nobody understands in Relativity/Quantum theory, too"
Your explanation is pure "gibberish" not related to any physical concept.... Special Relativity is a correct explanation of the basic effect. This is also the one that NASA accepts as correct as well.
Cheers
Your explanation is pure "gibberish" not related to any physical concept.... Special Relativity is a correct explanation of the basic effect. This is also the one that NASA accepts as correct as well.
Cheers
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 5 2006, 05:49 PM)
Hi zephir, References please...
Well, Good Elf - I know, it's difficult to understand it especially by You - but some people are using it's own head for thinking...
Would you ask Dr. Einstein for some references at the first case of relativity theory publishing? Why not?
The main physical concept of my explanation was demonstrated using the case of gallaxy spiral arms "virtual movement". The "superluminal jet" is 1D example of this.
Well, Good Elf - I know, it's difficult to understand it especially by You - but some people are using it's own head for thinking...
Would you ask Dr. Einstein for some references at the first case of relativity theory publishing? Why not?
The main physical concept of my explanation was demonstrated using the case of gallaxy spiral arms "virtual movement". The "superluminal jet" is 1D example of this.
Hi zephir,
Nonsense as per usual. People will make up their own minds.... You are trying to ruin a lot of decent minds with you absolute nonsense.
People will check this out for themselves..
Hubble detects motion in jet from M687 at apparent 6X speed of light
I have said my piece
Nonsense as per usual. People will make up their own minds.... You are trying to ruin a lot of decent minds with you absolute nonsense.
People will check this out for themselves..
Hubble detects motion in jet from M687 at apparent 6X speed of light
I have said my piece
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 5 2006, 06:05 PM)
People will check this out for themselves..
No NASA mechanism is given in link submitted by you. My explanation is simple - the M87's jet emanates and cumulates interstellar gas in space along a linear path. The mass can condense by its own gravity, too. At the moment, when the critical density is reached, the thermonuclear fusion processes begins, followed by the radiation (or maybe some other radiative process, the beginning and end of which is triggered by the critical plasma density). When the critical mass is depleted, the radiation ceases again. The radiative zone location is therefore shifted over time due the critical mass density gradient along the jet path.
It means, no relativity theory is necessary for explanation such observation - the matter simply begins radiate at different neighboring places of space consecutively due the matter density gradient. The ignition delay is making an illusion of superluminal speed at some places. You can reach an illusion of virtually unlimited speed just using a proper gradient of matter and mild conditions - no ultrahigh jet speed is necessary.
No NASA mechanism is given in link submitted by you. My explanation is simple - the M87's jet emanates and cumulates interstellar gas in space along a linear path. The mass can condense by its own gravity, too. At the moment, when the critical density is reached, the thermonuclear fusion processes begins, followed by the radiation (or maybe some other radiative process, the beginning and end of which is triggered by the critical plasma density). When the critical mass is depleted, the radiation ceases again. The radiative zone location is therefore shifted over time due the critical mass density gradient along the jet path.
It means, no relativity theory is necessary for explanation such observation - the matter simply begins radiate at different neighboring places of space consecutively due the matter density gradient. The ignition delay is making an illusion of superluminal speed at some places. You can reach an illusion of virtually unlimited speed just using a proper gradient of matter and mild conditions - no ultrahigh jet speed is necessary.
Hello all
From the given links it appears that the make up of the jets is supposed to be charged particles. Is this a known quantity?
I believe that the only way for a charged particle to emit EM is to undergo an acceleration. What is the mechanism that is causing the acceleration or deceleration in the jets at the distances involved?
If the EM is from an element then spectroscopic analysis would give the actual velocity.
From the given links it appears that the make up of the jets is supposed to be charged particles. Is this a known quantity?
I believe that the only way for a charged particle to emit EM is to undergo an acceleration. What is the mechanism that is causing the acceleration or deceleration in the jets at the distances involved?
If the EM is from an element then spectroscopic analysis would give the actual velocity.
QUOTE (Montec+Mar 5 2006, 06:57 PM)
It appears that the make up of the jets is supposed to be charged particles.
It's possible - but why do you think so? After all, the jet can be formed by the mixture of charged-uncharged particles, heavily ionized atom nuclei etc. The ionized gas doesn't requires to be accelerated heavily for lighting - the ionization and the light can be result of mutual collisions, too.
But such ionized matter can form just a subtle part of jet, until some critical density is reached.
It's possible - but why do you think so? After all, the jet can be formed by the mixture of charged-uncharged particles, heavily ionized atom nuclei etc. The ionized gas doesn't requires to be accelerated heavily for lighting - the ionization and the light can be result of mutual collisions, too.
But such ionized matter can form just a subtle part of jet, until some critical density is reached.
Hi Zephir
Ionized atomic nuclei will mean atomic spectra for that element.
If there is no atomic spectra and the light is in the visible EM band then that implies blue shifted radio band EM.
That leaves charged particles and some form of acceleration/deceleration.
Ionized atomic nuclei will mean atomic spectra for that element.
If there is no atomic spectra and the light is in the visible EM band then that implies blue shifted radio band EM.
That leaves charged particles and some form of acceleration/deceleration.
QUOTE (Montec+Mar 5 2006, 07:36 PM)
...If there is no atomic spectra...
Why do you believe, here are no atomic spectra? Just curious.
BTW the absence of atomic spectra isn't proof of absence of ionization radiation mechanism. For example, high pressure xenon lamp has a nearly continuos spectrum wih compare the low pressure one (why?)
Why do you believe, here are no atomic spectra? Just curious.
BTW the absence of atomic spectra isn't proof of absence of ionization radiation mechanism. For example, high pressure xenon lamp has a nearly continuos spectrum wih compare the low pressure one (why?)
Hi Zephir
It wasn't mentioned in the article and my assumption that the people at NASA are smart enough to check for spectral lines.
Hehe, the key word is "pressure" as in pressure broadening.
QUOTE
Why do you believe, here are no atomic spectra? Just curious.
It wasn't mentioned in the article and my assumption that the people at NASA are smart enough to check for spectral lines.
Hehe, the key word is "pressure" as in pressure broadening.
QUOTE (Montec+Mar 5 2006, 07:57 PM)
Hehe, the key word is "pressure" as in pressure broadening.
Well, the key word "pressure" is the difference, but not the explanation.
Well, the key word "pressure" is the difference, but not the explanation.
It is them thar particles, thats travelin faster than light G.E.
Hi philip347,
I am afraid not (well not in a conventional sense unless you use the second method of transport I mention above) What is seen is simply a superluminal optical effect similar to but not the same as if I had a laser pointer (on earth) and pointed it at the moon (on the left side) and then quickly "flicked" it to point to the other side (the right side). "Seeing is not always believing". The "spot" on the moon's surface can appear to travel faster than the speed of light (group velocity) but the "spot" is not a "material object" it is simply a phase velocity component on the surface on the moon almost on the same part of the wavefront as the light from the same laser pointer on the other side of the moon. The light is actually coming from the laser pointer on the earth and it is redirected to another place "real fast" (effectively "along" the wavefront which is arriving simultaneously everywhere "transverse to propagation direction"). Real objects (group velocity) can't move that fast. Still the spot "looks" as if it travels faster than C.
Of course the speed of light from the earth remains the same and in the one frame of reference (on the moon or on the earth... the difference in speed is "insignificant" to the speed of light) will be the speed of light in a vacuum.
Cheers
QUOTE
It is them thar particles, thats travelin faster than light G.E.
I am afraid not (well not in a conventional sense unless you use the second method of transport I mention above) What is seen is simply a superluminal optical effect similar to but not the same as if I had a laser pointer (on earth) and pointed it at the moon (on the left side) and then quickly "flicked" it to point to the other side (the right side). "Seeing is not always believing". The "spot" on the moon's surface can appear to travel faster than the speed of light (group velocity) but the "spot" is not a "material object" it is simply a phase velocity component on the surface on the moon almost on the same part of the wavefront as the light from the same laser pointer on the other side of the moon. The light is actually coming from the laser pointer on the earth and it is redirected to another place "real fast" (effectively "along" the wavefront which is arriving simultaneously everywhere "transverse to propagation direction"). Real objects (group velocity) can't move that fast. Still the spot "looks" as if it travels faster than C.Of course the speed of light from the earth remains the same and in the one frame of reference (on the moon or on the earth... the difference in speed is "insignificant" to the speed of light) will be the speed of light in a vacuum.
Cheers
Yes GE, I do agree with you, some men should tie themselves up in bondage, before they go out on dates.
* I fear the news of the Earth being flat, is all too true.
With the ravages that the sea monsters play on those, hapless as they venture near the edge, are bound to take more.
* I fear the news of the Earth being flat, is all too true.
With the ravages that the sea monsters play on those, hapless as they venture near the edge, are bound to take more.
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 5 2006, 11:02 AM)
...this is quite clearly the result of a Jet traveling at 98% the speed of light (as reported) toward the direction of the earth from M687...
It's interesting, although SR explicitly prohibits the direct observation of the motion by the superluminal speed, the first real observation of it in larger scale is explained by the relativistic effects... It's obvious nonsense and result of deep relativity misunderstanding.
For example, the 98% light speed would cause a strong blue shift and relativistic lenght contraction to more than 1/7th of original length. But the shining areas of jet are having a nearly spherical symmetry. It's quite clear, their's speed is very subtle with compare to speed of light.
It's interesting, although SR explicitly prohibits the direct observation of the motion by the superluminal speed, the first real observation of it in larger scale is explained by the relativistic effects...
It's obvious nonsense and result of deep relativity misunderstanding. For example, the 98% light speed would cause a strong blue shift and relativistic lenght contraction to more than 1/7th of original length. But the shining areas of jet are having a nearly spherical symmetry. It's quite clear, their's speed is very subtle with compare to speed of light.
Hi Zephir
I thought that the length contraction would only be visible if you were looking at the motion from the side. A strong blue shift would imply that you are looking "down the barrel" so to speak.
Although if high speed jets are common then we should see jets (in the RF bands) composed of flat disks out there too. ( nice catch Zephir)
I thought that the length contraction would only be visible if you were looking at the motion from the side. A strong blue shift would imply that you are looking "down the barrel" so to speak.
Although if high speed jets are common then we should see jets (in the RF bands) composed of flat disks out there too. ( nice catch Zephir)
QUOTE (Montec+Mar 6 2006, 07:38 AM)
A strong blue shift would imply that you are looking "down the barrel" so to speak.
This pretty Hubble image of M87 demonstrates it by visual demonstration suggestively with strong illusion of 3D perspective. It's obvious, the jet axis forms a rather sharp angle with the axis of observation: definitely less than 45 degrees - maybe some 10 - 15 degrees...
But it would mean, the perceived speed of jet shining areas is even much higher than 5.5 - 6.0 c, maybe 35 - 55c. The special relativity doesn't allows a direct observation of such motion speed. It's very probable, such motion is just a virtual phenomenon.
The whole jet appearance is very interesting and due to its asymmetry doesn't fits the common black hole models too well. It looks pretty like cloudy interstellar gas illuminated by some independent source in narrow angle (i.e. sort of Tyndall's effect). This offers another, even more classical explanation of perceived superluminal jet speed.
This pretty Hubble image of M87 demonstrates it by visual demonstration suggestively with strong illusion of 3D perspective. It's obvious, the jet axis forms a rather sharp angle with the axis of observation: definitely less than 45 degrees - maybe some 10 - 15 degrees...
But it would mean, the perceived speed of jet shining areas is even much higher than 5.5 - 6.0 c, maybe 35 - 55c. The special relativity doesn't allows a direct observation of such motion speed. It's very probable, such motion is just a virtual phenomenon.
The whole jet appearance is very interesting and due to its asymmetry doesn't fits the common black hole models too well. It looks pretty like cloudy interstellar gas illuminated by some independent source in narrow angle (i.e. sort of Tyndall's effect). This offers another, even more classical explanation of perceived superluminal jet speed.
Hi zephir,
Pretty pictures...
Pretty pictures...
QUOTE (Zephir Posted on Mar 6 2006+ 03:19 AM)
It's interesting, although SR explicitly prohibits the direct observation of the motion by the superluminal speed, the first real observation of it in larger scale is explained by the relativistic effects... It's obvious nonsense and result of deep relativity misunderstanding.
It is only apparently "superluminal" since the light has already reached the earth to be able to take these pictures. The "motion" is like the spot on the moon (above)... it only "appears" to travel that fast... it is a pure optical effect. The jets are not actually travelling faster than light (98%C). Of course that is what the article actually said so I do not see your problem with not believing it as a pure Special Relativity phenomenon.
The original article is embellished in my telling of it but I wanted it to be a full explanation with something that most others would not be able to fully understand to be on the "edge".
Cheers
It is only apparently "superluminal" since the light has already reached the earth to be able to take these pictures. The "motion" is like the spot on the moon (above)... it only "appears" to travel that fast... it is a pure optical effect. The jets are not actually travelling faster than light (98%C). Of course that is what the article actually said so I do not see your problem with not believing it as a pure Special Relativity phenomenon.
The original article is embellished in my telling of it but I wanted it to be a full explanation with something that most others would not be able to fully understand to be on the "edge".
Cheers
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 6 2006, 12:46 PM)
...it is a pure optical effect...
Why not draw a scheme of such optical effect...?? Why I should believe you?
Why not draw a scheme of such optical effect...??
Why I should believe you?
Hi zephir,
Don't believe me if you do not want to... believe the NASA guy!
HUBBLE DETECTS FASTER-THAN-LIGHT MOTION IN GALAXY M87
Don't believe me if you do not want to... believe the NASA guy!
HUBBLE DETECTS FASTER-THAN-LIGHT MOTION IN GALAXY M87
QUOTE (Press release text extract+)
The term `superluminal motion' is something of a misnomer. While it
accurately describes the speeds measured, scientists still believe the
actual speed falls just below the speed of light.
``It's an illusion created by the finite speed of light and rapid motion,"
Biretta said. ``Our present understanding is that this `superluminal motion'
occurs when these clouds move towards Earth at speeds very close to that
of light, in this case, more than 98 percent of the speed of light. At
these speeds the clouds nearly keep pace with the light they emit as they
move towards Earth, so when the light finally reaches us, the motion appears
much more rapid than the speed of light. Since the moving clouds travel
slightly slower than the speed of light, they do not actually violate
Einstein's theory of relativity which sets light as the speed limit."
I have described such effects many times in many previous posts on relativity. I think it is adequately described above (initial post of this thread).
Cheers
accurately describes the speeds measured, scientists still believe the
actual speed falls just below the speed of light.
``It's an illusion created by the finite speed of light and rapid motion,"
Biretta said. ``Our present understanding is that this `superluminal motion'
occurs when these clouds move towards Earth at speeds very close to that
of light, in this case, more than 98 percent of the speed of light. At
these speeds the clouds nearly keep pace with the light they emit as they
move towards Earth, so when the light finally reaches us, the motion appears
much more rapid than the speed of light. Since the moving clouds travel
slightly slower than the speed of light, they do not actually violate
Einstein's theory of relativity which sets light as the speed limit."
I have described such effects many times in many previous posts on relativity. I think it is adequately described above (initial post of this thread).
Cheers
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 7 2006, 05:37 AM)
Don't believe me if you do not want to... believe the NASA guy!
Our present understanding is that this `superluminal motion'
occurs when these clouds move towards Earth at speeds very close to that
of light, in this case, more than 98 percent of the speed of light. At
these speeds the clouds nearly keep pace with the light they emit as they
move towards Earth, so when the light finally reaches us, the motion appears
much more rapid than the speed of light. Since the moving clouds travel
slightly slower than the speed of light, they do not actually violate
Einstein's theory of relativity which sets light as the speed limit.
I don't understand such explanation, so I can't accept it. The special relativity explicitly prohibits a direct observation of motion by the superluminal speed.
Our present understanding is that this `superluminal motion'
occurs when these clouds move towards Earth at speeds very close to that
of light, in this case, more than 98 percent of the speed of light. At
these speeds the clouds nearly keep pace with the light they emit as they
move towards Earth, so when the light finally reaches us, the motion appears
much more rapid than the speed of light. Since the moving clouds travel
slightly slower than the speed of light, they do not actually violate
Einstein's theory of relativity which sets light as the speed limit.
I don't understand such explanation, so I can't accept it. The special relativity explicitly prohibits a direct observation of motion by the superluminal speed.
Hi Good Elf
I have been thinking on this subject, "Superluminal Jets", and have come up with a hypothesis.
DeBroglie wavelength is based on the velocity and mass of the particle.
If a particle can radiate EM from the DeBroglie motion then the direction of emission of said EM will be at right angles to the DeBroglie motion. Also the faster the particle's velocity the more directional the emitted EM radiation becomes. (Hmm particle of light...)
What would the velocity of an electron or proton need to be in order to generate DeBroglie based EM that is blue shifted to that of M87?
Could the momentum lost from this EM explain the observed length of the jet?
If DeBroglie based EM is valid then linear particle accelerators should also generate this EM. (No luck as of yet in researching this)
I have been thinking on this subject, "Superluminal Jets", and have come up with a hypothesis.
DeBroglie wavelength is based on the velocity and mass of the particle.
If a particle can radiate EM from the DeBroglie motion then the direction of emission of said EM will be at right angles to the DeBroglie motion. Also the faster the particle's velocity the more directional the emitted EM radiation becomes. (Hmm particle of light...)
What would the velocity of an electron or proton need to be in order to generate DeBroglie based EM that is blue shifted to that of M87?
Could the momentum lost from this EM explain the observed length of the jet?
If DeBroglie based EM is valid then linear particle accelerators should also generate this EM. (No luck as of yet in researching this)
QUOTE (Montec+Mar 15 2006, 10:38 PM)
What would the velocity of an electron or proton need to be in order to generate DeBroglie based EM that is blue shifted to that of M87?
DeBroglie wave cannot radiate. By my opinion, the radiation of them87 jet is caused by so called synchrotron radiation. It's a form of inertial radiation, similar to the Cerenkov radiation. It occurs always, when the charge particles changes by the speed or the direction of the motion (for example as the result of jet turbulences or intra-particles collisions). The field curvature at the moment of inertial charge motion leads to the radiation of waves of synchrotron radiation in X-ray part of spectrum.
But it doesn't means, the speed of M87-jet is superluminal. Just the vorticity gradient inside the jet will cause, the location of the radiation maximum is shifted along the gradient with time, thus creating an illusion of the "hot spot motion".
DeBroglie wave cannot radiate. By my opinion, the radiation of them87 jet is caused by so called synchrotron radiation. It's a form of inertial radiation, similar to the Cerenkov radiation. It occurs always, when the charge particles changes by the speed or the direction of the motion (for example as the result of jet turbulences or intra-particles collisions). The field curvature at the moment of inertial charge motion leads to the radiation of waves of synchrotron radiation in X-ray part of spectrum.
But it doesn't means, the speed of M87-jet is superluminal. Just the vorticity gradient inside the jet will cause, the location of the radiation maximum is shifted along the gradient with time, thus creating an illusion of the "hot spot motion".
QUOTE (Montec+Mar 15 2006, 10:38 PM)
What would the velocity of an electron or proton need to be in order to generate DeBroglie based EM that is blue shifted to that of M87
Just during acceleration of particle. The synchrotron radiation is much more common in synchrotron accelerator with circular path of motion. It's a main limiting factor of the power, which can be transferred to the particles. It leads to the requirement of the as large synchrotron diameter, as possible to eliminate the energy lost due the synchrotron radiation.
Just during acceleration of particle. The synchrotron radiation is much more common in synchrotron accelerator with circular path of motion. It's a main limiting factor of the power, which can be transferred to the particles. It leads to the requirement of the as large synchrotron diameter, as possible to eliminate the energy lost due the synchrotron radiation.
Its not an optical effect.
The particles involved transcend the speed of light.
However some luminance from many kinds of ejecta, from such bodies as quasars, have been recorded going faster than light.
Im not going to argue this, as this is politics, not misunderstanding.
The particles involved transcend the speed of light.
However some luminance from many kinds of ejecta, from such bodies as quasars, have been recorded going faster than light.
Im not going to argue this, as this is politics, not misunderstanding.
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