http://www.physorg.com/news108823299.html
Those shysters at GM must really think we"re idiots if they think we"ll believe that changing two $0.85 butyl seals to $0.90 teflon seals in a truck"s fuel line to make it E85 compatible amounts to an emissions strategy. Especially when the only reason they do it is to fake out the US EPA fleet mileage standards.
What a joke. The article puts GM in the same league as Toyota regarding development of sensible vehicles, which is flat stupid. GM has nothing useful on the market, and doesn't look likely to ever change that. Put a Volt on every dealer's lot or shut up and go out of business as you deserve.
QUOTE (lengould+Sep 12 2007, 02:02 PM)
http://www.physorg.com/news108823299.html
Those shysters at GM must really think we"re idiots if they think we"ll believe that changing two $0.85 butyl seals to $0.90 teflon seals in a truck"s fuel line to make it E85 compatible amounts to an emissions strategy. Especially when the only reason they do it is to fake out the US EPA fleet mileage standards.
What a joke. The article puts GM in the same league as Toyota regarding development of sensible vehicles, which is flat stupid. GM has nothing useful on the market, and doesn't look likely to ever change that. Put a Volt on every dealer's lot or shut up and go out of business as you deserve.
Len you have to back up these arguments.
I don't think you are correct.
I couldn't find an article on the changes GM has made but here is one from Pugeot
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070806.002/peugeot-307-bioflex
An excerpt that gives an idea of the OTHER changes involved in making an E85 engine and fuel system:
These engines adapt themselves automatically to all mixtures of lead-free petrol and superethanol. So the customer can run the car only on lead-free petrol if he/she wishes, in which case the 307 BioFlex will not consume any more than the equivalent 307 equipped with the standard petrol engine. The final advantage is a slight improvement in performance obtained with E85 compared to petrol, estimated at + 4 % torque and + 2.5 % power.
Proven technology
Since March 2005, in Brazil, Peugeot has been selling the 206 1.6 l capable of running on petrol, on "pure" ethanol (E100), or on any combination of the two. The original modifications made to the TU5JP4 engine, to make it compatible with ethanol, mainly concerned the injectors, the spark plugs, the valves, the throttle butterfly valve control unit, the piston rings and the supply hoses. Since that time, in Brazil, this technology has been extended to the 1.4 l engine for the 206 and also to the saloon versions of the 307 with 1.6 l engines, and approximately 60,000 vehicles have been sold to date.
The 307 Estate and SW 1.6 l BioFlex 110 marketed in Europe use the TU5JP4 engine of the Brazilian 206 and 307, modified to meet the Euro IV standard applicable in Europe. With a displacement of 1,587 cc, this engine develops a maximum power of 80 to 82 kW (110 to 112 hp EEC) at 5,800 rpm, and a maximum torque of 147 to 153 N.m at 4,000 rpm depending on the petrol / ethanol mixture used as fuel. This engine is coupled to a five-speed manual gearbox. This means that 307 BioFlex vehicles running on lead-free petrol obtain identical results in terms of both performance and fuel consumption, as compared to the standard petrol engine. When running on superethanol, 307 BioFlex vehicles are slightly more powerful, with slightly improved standing-start and passing acceleration figures.
In addition to the initial changes to the engine, modifications specific to European 307 BioFlex vehicles have been made to the functions that are directly connected with fuel. The digital engine control unit specific to 307 BioFlex vehicles manages the fuel supply according to the fuel composition measured by the lambda (EGO) sensor. The fuel tank is identical, but the minimum fuel level warning software has been changed in order to take the type of fuel used into account, in consideration of the additional fuel consumption due to the presence of ethanol results, which results in reduced autonomy.
Arthur
Those shysters at GM must really think we"re idiots if they think we"ll believe that changing two $0.85 butyl seals to $0.90 teflon seals in a truck"s fuel line to make it E85 compatible amounts to an emissions strategy. Especially when the only reason they do it is to fake out the US EPA fleet mileage standards.
What a joke. The article puts GM in the same league as Toyota regarding development of sensible vehicles, which is flat stupid. GM has nothing useful on the market, and doesn't look likely to ever change that. Put a Volt on every dealer's lot or shut up and go out of business as you deserve.
Len you have to back up these arguments.
I don't think you are correct.
I couldn't find an article on the changes GM has made but here is one from Pugeot
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070806.002/peugeot-307-bioflex
An excerpt that gives an idea of the OTHER changes involved in making an E85 engine and fuel system:
These engines adapt themselves automatically to all mixtures of lead-free petrol and superethanol. So the customer can run the car only on lead-free petrol if he/she wishes, in which case the 307 BioFlex will not consume any more than the equivalent 307 equipped with the standard petrol engine. The final advantage is a slight improvement in performance obtained with E85 compared to petrol, estimated at + 4 % torque and + 2.5 % power.
Proven technology
Since March 2005, in Brazil, Peugeot has been selling the 206 1.6 l capable of running on petrol, on "pure" ethanol (E100), or on any combination of the two. The original modifications made to the TU5JP4 engine, to make it compatible with ethanol, mainly concerned the injectors, the spark plugs, the valves, the throttle butterfly valve control unit, the piston rings and the supply hoses. Since that time, in Brazil, this technology has been extended to the 1.4 l engine for the 206 and also to the saloon versions of the 307 with 1.6 l engines, and approximately 60,000 vehicles have been sold to date.
The 307 Estate and SW 1.6 l BioFlex 110 marketed in Europe use the TU5JP4 engine of the Brazilian 206 and 307, modified to meet the Euro IV standard applicable in Europe. With a displacement of 1,587 cc, this engine develops a maximum power of 80 to 82 kW (110 to 112 hp EEC) at 5,800 rpm, and a maximum torque of 147 to 153 N.m at 4,000 rpm depending on the petrol / ethanol mixture used as fuel. This engine is coupled to a five-speed manual gearbox. This means that 307 BioFlex vehicles running on lead-free petrol obtain identical results in terms of both performance and fuel consumption, as compared to the standard petrol engine. When running on superethanol, 307 BioFlex vehicles are slightly more powerful, with slightly improved standing-start and passing acceleration figures.
In addition to the initial changes to the engine, modifications specific to European 307 BioFlex vehicles have been made to the functions that are directly connected with fuel. The digital engine control unit specific to 307 BioFlex vehicles manages the fuel supply according to the fuel composition measured by the lambda (EGO) sensor. The fuel tank is identical, but the minimum fuel level warning software has been changed in order to take the type of fuel used into account, in consideration of the additional fuel consumption due to the presence of ethanol results, which results in reduced autonomy.
Arthur
I think lengould got served.
lengould you got PWNED! 
Ha, served indeed. By a vague discussion of Pugeot in Brazil?
Here, from Wiki.
Here, from a U Texas project to modify a Chevy Silverado to run E85.
Here, from a U Texas project to modify a Chevy Silverado to run E85.
All fuel system components not E85 compatible have been replaced or modified. (that's the two butyl seals I referred to) ... Certain engine control data within the Engine Control Module (ECM) have been modified based on experimentation, although the majority of the stock gasoline control strategy has been retained. To account for differences in fuel characteristics, increased mass flow rate fuel injectors are used. (All zero cost items once parameters known)
Show me a specific reference for GM's "costs" to produce E85 Flex-fuel vehicles. I still hold with the $0.20
Here, from Wiki.
QUOTE
Beginning with the model year 1999, an increasing number of vehicles in the world are manufactured with engines which can run on any fuel from 0% ethanol up to 100% ethanol without modification. Many cars and light trucks (a class containing minivans, SUVs and pickup trucks) are designed to be flexible-fuel vehicles (also called dual-fuel vehicles). Their engine systems contain alcohol sensors in the fuel and/or oxygen sensors in the exhaust that provide input to the engine control computer to adjust the fuel injection to achieve stochiometric (no residual fuel or free oxygen in the exhaust) air-to-fuel ratio for any fuel mix. The engine control computer can also adjust (advance) the ignition timing to achieve a higher output without pre-ignition when higher alcohol percentages are present in the fuel being burned
Here, from a U Texas project to modify a Chevy Silverado to run E85.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Beginning with the model year 1999, an increasing number of vehicles in the world are manufactured with engines which can run on any fuel from 0% ethanol up to 100% ethanol without modification. Many cars and light trucks (a class containing minivans, SUVs and pickup trucks) are designed to be flexible-fuel vehicles (also called dual-fuel vehicles). Their engine systems contain alcohol sensors in the fuel and/or oxygen sensors in the exhaust that provide input to the engine control computer to adjust the fuel injection to achieve stochiometric (no residual fuel or free oxygen in the exhaust) air-to-fuel ratio for any fuel mix. The engine control computer can also adjust (advance) the ignition timing to achieve a higher output without pre-ignition when higher alcohol percentages are present in the fuel being burned |
Here, from a U Texas project to modify a Chevy Silverado to run E85.
All fuel system components not E85 compatible have been replaced or modified. (that's the two butyl seals I referred to) ... Certain engine control data within the Engine Control Module (ECM) have been modified based on experimentation, although the majority of the stock gasoline control strategy has been retained. To account for differences in fuel characteristics, increased mass flow rate fuel injectors are used. (All zero cost items once parameters known)
Show me a specific reference for GM's "costs" to produce E85 Flex-fuel vehicles. I still hold with the $0.20
You made the initial claim, len. We don't have to believe you until you show us your numbers. Just sayin'. You need to show where you got your listing of what parts are being changed out by GM.
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