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hpdrdoom
When i close my eyes and move my hands around, after some time (still eyes closed) i'am able to touch my hands together without seeing! how does my brain knows where my left and right hand is when i don't see them? does my brain does assume and arrange coordinates to conclude where my hands are?
niels
QUOTE (hpdrdoom+Jul 10 2012, 03:01 PM)
When i close my eyes and move my hands around, after some time (still eyes closed) i'am able to touch my hands together without seeing! how does my brain knows where my left and right hand is when i don't see them? does my brain does assume and arrange coordinates to conclude where my hands are?

IMO it would be even more (nature tends to act logically and economically) strange if the body / mind used the vision as an interface to achieve spatial coordination.
hpdrdoom
But how can the brain understand the coordinate in space without seeing?
niels
QUOTE (hpdrdoom+Jul 11 2012, 05:24 AM)
But how can the brain understand the coordinate in space without seeing?

Read about robot technology and how they orientate via accellerometers etc etc.

the body is being equipped with senses that can meaure accurately accelleration and also give very precise information about relative position of your extremities relative to your body

Think it over and you will realise how vision is just something that confirm the positions, in retrospect.
humy
QUOTE (hpdrdoom+Jul 11 2012, 05:24 AM)
But how can the brain understand the coordinate in space without seeing?

The answer is, even without your sight, your brain is getting constant feedback which includes feedback on the movement in the joints from nerves that sense movement and pressure in the joints and also from nerves that sense the stretching of skin as you move and also from nerves that monitor the muscle activity:

http://www.positivehealth.com/article/chir...-position-sense

“...Proprioceptors are a special group of sensors found throughout the body. They provide information on the movement, position, tension, and force in every area of the body.

Most proprioceptors, especially those in the skin, send messages only when they are stimulated, but a special class - known as muscle spindle cells - sends a constant stream of messages to the spinal cord and brain, even when the muscle is resting.

These spindle cells are smaller muscle fibres that sit alongside ordinary muscle fibres. Their job is to detect the slightest changes in the tension or length of the muscle.

Every muscle spindle cell constantly generates signals which travel from the muscle to the spinal cord. Like the rev counter of an engine, they are constantly active, responding to the activity of the muscle. Whether the muscle is fully stretched or semicontracted, the muscle spindles adjust their output to reflect the amount of tension in the muscle
...”
Mekigal
that is some good posting humy
Incoming and out going signals you don't say . Very interesting. I would venture to guess that we are not consciously aware of all the information in the signals" How many signals" received by the brain.
In a giving interval of lets say 1 hr.
Is there any stats on that ?
Mekigal
QUOTE (niels+Jul 11 2012, 09:26 AM)


Think it over and you will realise how vision is just something that confirm the positions, in retrospect.

That is a mouth full. More ways than one . Consciousness all together perhaps .
When you see something you are looking at the past . What already happened . Even when right on top of the situation unfolding there is the slight delay of time from what you see and the event happening . Like said about looking in a mirror . There is a miniscule time delay between what you see and what is really there . I didn't make that up . It was a discussion at sciforum and the evidence presented was extremely compelling. Top public physicists in there field confirmed the notion .

Confirmation of the future by the sight of inroads in systems existing . Ultimate out comes by collisions of opposing groups of influence . Tooshay_ ungaurd !
War is even still at play . What will humans do next
Mekigal
o.k. you got me thinking about it . The start of life
First question is can an organism exist with out the distribution system like a brain?
Viruses don't have brains ? Or is there some equivalent mechanism to a brain in a bacteria or virus?
Now to my previous thought < Life started from the rise and fall of tide activity in water . Water was the great mixer of elements that caused chain reactions in slim bubbles of toxins . This gave rise to repetitive duplications from identical conditions of locality.
The brain was a later development in the wave motion of water sack reactions
Whitewolf4869
QUOTE (Mekigal+Jul 14 2012, 08:17 PM)
o.k. you got me thinking about it . The start of life
First question is can an organism exist with out the distribution system like a brain?
Viruses don't have brains ? Or is there some equivalent mechanism to a brain in a bacteria or virus?
Now to my previous thought < Life started from the rise and fall of tide activity in water . Water was the great mixer of elements that caused chain reactions in slim bubbles of toxins . This gave rise to repetitive duplications from identical conditions of locality.
The brain was a later development in the wave motion of water sack reactions

It sounds like your talking about homeopathy.
Water is a true magical substance!
Distribution system?
Do plants have a brain?
Robittybob1
QUOTE (Whitewolf4869+Jul 15 2012, 07:59 PM)
It sounds like your talking about homeopathy.
Water is a true magical substance!
Distribution system?
Do plants have a brain?

Plants might not have a brain but they do react to light and gravity for a starter.
Mekigal
i can see how life would start from water and sun light .
does electrolysis occur naturally in water from sun light . I don't know that . I was sleeping that day in class. Do you need plant life at the bottom of a body of water to create bubbles rising to the surface , or is sun light enough to release bubbles of lets say oxygen and hydrogen since that is the elements that make water.
The rise and fall action is suspect for me . Like the in and out of reproduction . The rise and fall is the same action . Same with tidal activity on deep time .
Consider : we are really bags of water . What percentage of the human body is water ? Mostly water I would think . Course some of you might be pure grain alcohol instead of water
niels
QUOTE (Mekigal+Jul 14 2012, 08:06 PM)
That is a mouth full. More ways than one . Consciousness all together perhaps .
When you see something you are looking at the past . What already happened . Even when right on top of the situation unfolding there is the slight delay of time from what you see and the event happening . Like said about looking in a mirror . There is a miniscule time delay between what you see and what is really there . I didn't make that up . It was a discussion at sciforum and the evidence presented was extremely compelling. Top public physicists in there field confirmed the notion .

Confirmation of the future by the sight of inroads in systems existing . Ultimate out comes by collisions of opposing groups of influence . Tooshay_ ungaurd !
War is even still at play . What will humans do next

Oh my intention was just to make a very simple picture

But you are right, I agree that it is deeply involving the whole world of consciousness, something that is not being discussed in this forum, because it is apparently vieved as a strictly PHYSICAL forum and nothing else. But it is not easy meningfully, at least as I see it, to discuss physics without involving metaphysics. I like to avoid concepts like imaginary particles for instance, without at least trying to get a gist about what imaginary fundamentally means. And the closest I can get is that PHYSICAL is abut all that which can be interferred with, by Human PHYSICAL senses, and the rest is belonging to the world that cannot. But this IMO makes it no more REAL so to speak, and no more untouchable (interferable ) to our mind senses, as compared to the physical scale. The distinction between noumenal and phenomenal, is something that is amazingly overlooked (and forbidden) in this forum.

You may have noticed that I like to look at scales and the interaction between scales, and how everything ultimately can be seen as INFORMATION. Without this angle I cannot get a grip on anything.

The quintessence is that what we like to define as @real physical world@ is about how information observes information, and everything relating to observation is in retrospect an event. There exist no such thing as absolute time, because time is a reflection of a change that has already occurred, and again it relates to scales. How long time does it take to express a particle or an event well, it depends on scale and frame of the observer. Real physical world is just the scale of electron & photon, and observed by human mind. No more no less. And Einstein was not only wise but perhaps also a little lucky when he decided to define and describe Universe out from this metaphor. In its essence it is anthropic.

I have been reading many of your posts and they give more meaning to me than the bulk of mainstrem nonsense in this forum (strictly personal view of course), and the way that this forum has been moderated has been very bad to real science (strictly my personal view again of course)

sorry, I am afraid that this was a kind of side step

What will human do next ?, well I think that they will accept the paradigme shift when it comes, not changing existing physics at all just make it a little less complicated and free for all the crystal skyes that has been invented in order to solve some of the deepest problems (paradoxes) that shadow for a simpler concept. And here I am thinking specifically on the paradox of infinite and continuous to exist in the same basket, something human mind cannot grasp.

BTW how do you imagine that incoming signals to the mind can be counted. It is not too complicated to account for counsciouss signals and they are not many, now what about subliminal signals ? and how suliminal or indirect can a signal be before it is being diluted into something that cannot be defined. Exactly the same problem as with particles. It is quite easy to account for signals in the scale of human physical senses (you remember electron / photon) but soon the observations become very indirect, well as long as a quark express itself via a bigger particle no problem, but what if the quark has not yet formed into a higher particle, and the same goes for dark matter dark energy etc etc etc.

And what is a @brain@. I like to see a brain as an information Qbit with the ability of observing information and @copy paste replay and turn it into consciousness@, but the question is which kind of consciousness. If one accept the idea of scaling then everything becomes much more complex and interesting, and one can easily imagine that a quark has a brain, there is simple nothing in the universe that cannot interfere (observe) the surrounfing Universe (true entanglement), and any observation is a kind of interference and involves a kind of wavecollaps (in all scales) and a wavecollaps will change the next coming event. In its quintessense all kinds of observations (involving all scales) effects the future, and the socalled presence, the NOW is always the past. Talking about free will ?
Mekigal
Son of a bitch . I understood what you said and I tend to agree . Information battles . Yeah . That is what imagery I got out of that . I pictured information groups that prop up there information viability by battling contrary circles of information . A discrediting service so to speak . A survival tool of the modern earth .
Thought paradigm shift ? What you think about that ?
To take the human brain and put threw a series of stress tests by emotional brake downs . To kill the ego of self preservation . So as to shift motive of the group by manipulation of a few that transmit the new thoughts of stressed to a braking point. Once a set number have been broke down they infect every one they come into contact with. Then an exponential effect could occur with the new virus that infiltrates the brain . Course it is placebo in nature as we use the brain pathways as the driving force for the new virus. So as we open the new path ways in the brain we plant the ego destruction virus . Not the same as self esteem mind you . We would want high self-esteem to be kept intact and also heighten self esteem to new levels while destruction of self preservation ego is killed . It should give extreme feelings of extreme joy in the individual by my calculations . They would rid them selves of a lot of fear that holds back human potential .
Mekigal
QUOTE (niels+Jul 15 2012, 09:41 PM)
Oh well I think that they will accept the paradigme shift when it comes,
subliminal signals

and how subliminal or indirect can a signal be before it is being diluted into something that cannot be defined.


It is quite easy to account for signals in the scale of human physical senses

M.R.Is are getting a handle on mapping . There is serious research in this field and a student that meet the qualifications can get cold hard fast cash from letting them prob there minds. There is an application on line for any that want to submit to the study

Talking about free will ?

I don't think it is diluted is the thing . It is masked by political dogma so the subject has been desensitized to the noises in peoples heads . It is belittled so people shut it down as a way to conform to protocols. I think it is front and center in the reality of the subject though . The problem is the subject can't see past there personal well to identify another persons well . That well being the scattered circles that influence there daily decisions.
It is like that moment when you find out something true about another . First Thought " I didn't know that about him/her.
It is do to the closed systems . The one where threat is real so the closure of the system shuts off do to the real threat ( be it what ever : Got to make a mortgage payment . I only have this much to buy groceries. My son needs an operation) Real threats ) you can see where the conflict comes in . Criminal analysis tells us the criminal did the crime to feed his group . I imagine that would be number one answer . Course the majority of murders are wives killing there husbands . Did you know that ? I am relatively positive that is an accurate statement. Bad dads . Violent offenders .
Mekigal
O.K I Post in the wrong thread . Sorry ! I deleted it
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