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TheDoc
Stonehenge a 'long-term cemetery'

QUOTE (From the link above+)
The site was used as a cemetery for 500 years, from the point of its inception.

Archaeologists have said the cremation burials found at the site might represent a single elite family and its descendents - perhaps a ruling dynasty.


Discuss.
xtrmn8r
Druids?
barakn
The Addams Family?
Beer w/Straw
Noah's Ark?
iantresman
I finished a Web site for a client two weeks ago, who is also claiming "Stonehenge Solved", in this case, as a lunar observatory. I love the image of Stonehenge on their home page by English artist, John Constable, which looks somewhat different to Stonehenge as we know it today.
kjw
QUOTE
TheDoc Posted: Yesterday at 1:26 PM Stonehenge a 'long-term cemetery'

Discuss.

Many seasonal assemblies were held at burial sites, including the enigmatic passage graves (dolmens of the megaliths) that stud Ireland.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/d/druidism.html

the construction (and re-construction) of stonehenge provides a means of determining recurrences of seasonal cycles.

dolmen , the use of a cap stone looks strangely similar to the stone structures of stonehenge ...

PS befor anyone posts - but stonehenge is not in ireland, please note the word "including"
wcelliott
I'm personally convinced that Stonehenge was the equivalent of the Supreme Court/United Nations, and may have served as the foundation for the "Round Table" myth, where various "Balkan-type" kingdoms were united under a single rule.

Each of the bluestones in my theory represented a kingdom where a representative would stand, with the interior stones being where testimony was given. The outer rings served as boundaries where interested parties could witness the proceedings, the inner rings would be reserved for the parties with vested interests.

Think for a moment of the architectural requirements of a modern courtroom, and I think you'll recognize the corresponding features at Stonehenge (and the other, lesser, barrows).
midwestern
Stonehenge is a clock. This big sundial measured time through shadows on the monuments. The Pyramids at Giza represent father, mother, and son (family) as laid out.

These two are pretty much fact.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 2 2008, 08:28 PM)
Stonehenge is a clock. This big sundial measured time through shadows on the monuments. The Pyramids at Giza represent father, mother, and son (family) as laid out.

laugh.gif laugh.gif

QUOTE
These two are pretty much fact.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Sapo
I thought I was at the Joint for a minute, with all the jokes I've been reading...

sad.gif
midwestern
Facts are facts. Make fun or not if you wish. huh.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 3 2008, 07:09 PM)
Facts are facts.  Make fun or not if you wish. huh.gif

And idiocies are idiocies. We make fun of idiocies tongue.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 3 2008, 07:09 PM)
Facts are facts. Make fun or not if you wish. huh.gif

Yep.
Now try to prove them claims you made are facts.
midwestern
How obvious can two points of reason be! Study both sites and see why I'm correct. There is no quiver in my thoughts about both sites.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 4 2008, 08:08 PM)
How obvious can two points of reason be! Study both sites and see why I'm correct. There is no quiver in my thoughts about both sites.

The only thin ya proved is that ya can't just back up yer claims with references or sources or actual facts. That means when you said they was facts, you was lyin.
Liar.
midwestern
Typical M pants. Please have an open mind. rolleyes.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 5 2008, 08:12 PM)
Typical M pants. Please have an open mind. rolleyes.gif

So yer sayin I should believe ya just cause ya said so?
Well in that case, ya owe me two thousand bucks. Pay up.
midwestern
Why not $20,000 for the heck of having fun? biggrin.gif NOT!!!! tongue.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 5 2008, 08:22 PM)
Why not $20,000 for the heck of having fun? biggrin.gif NOT!!!! tongue.gif

Sure, pay up. After all, I said ya owe it to me, so it must be true, right?
midwestern
NOT!!!! Stop searching for a buck. dry.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif
MjolnirPants
So ya don't believe me just cause I said so?
Well then, ya know why I don't believe you just cause ya say so.
Now, gimme some evidence, eh? wink.gif
midwestern
Find the evidence MP. A little digging and you should hit gold. smile.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 5 2008, 08:48 PM)
Find the evidence MP. A little digging and you should hit gold. smile.gif

You mean the evidence like the guy what started this thread posted?
biggrin.gif The evidence that disagrees with ya?
Why you even on a science forum, son? Ya don't even seem to know what science is...
midwestern
http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=sund...rc=IE-SearchBox
Stonehenge is a giant sundial. smile.gif
midwestern
Leave MP, your knowledge of science is lacking. tongue.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 5 2008, 09:02 PM)
http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=sund...rc=IE-SearchBox
Stonehenge is a giant sundial. smile.gif

Um... so searchin for "sundial stonehenge" proves that stonehenge was nothin but a sundial? Damn that's a dumb assertion.
I mean hot damn! Wow! You ever need someone to remind you to breathe, son? Seems like yer on that level.

Well first off, not one o the links yer search turned up was to an encyclopedia or science paper. A conspiracy theory website, a technical support group, a few personal web pages...
No evidence. Just proof that you ain't the only one what don't know crap about stonehenge. Try this on fer size...
Wikipedia - Stonehenge
QUOTE (Wikipedia+)
New archaeological evidence found by the Stonehenge Riverside Archaeological Project indicates that Stonehenge served as a burial ground from its earliest beginnings.[3] The dating of cremated remains found that burials took place as early as 3000 B.C, when the first ditches were being built around the monument. Burials continued at Stonehenge for at least another 500 years when the giant stones which mark the landmark were put up. According to Professor Michael Parker Pearson, head of Stonehenge Riverside Archaeological Project:[4]

Now point out the word "sundial" in that quote for me, wouldya?

QUOTE
Leave MP, your knowledge of science is lacking.

So says the man what don't know the difference between a fact an an opinion....
So tell me, if I'm so dumb an yer so smart, how come I got a better feedback score than you? Hell, nobody's given you good feedback since ya showed up here! laugh.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 5 2008, 09:04 PM)
Leave MP, your knowledge of science is lacking. tongue.gif

Leave, midwestern. Your knowledge of science, debate and reason is lacking.
DuzmA
What ever happened to stonehenge being a diagram of the female genetalia?
xtrmn8r
QUOTE
What ever happened to stonehenge being a diagram of the female genetalia?


This is news to me!?
gmilam
QUOTE (DuzmA+Jun 5 2008, 06:24 PM)
What ever happened to stonehenge being a diagram of the female genetalia?

I thought that was the Edsel...
Beer w/Straw
QUOTE (DuzmA+Jun 5 2008, 11:24 PM)
What ever happened to stonehenge being a diagram of the female genetalia?

It's still too confusing dry.gif
photojack
Did anyone see the National Geographic Channel's two hour special on Stonehenge last night? It clearly showed new archaeological evidence from Michael Parker Pearson's work linking it to burials AND the Summer Solstice celebrations of its builders, who incidentally pre-dated the Druids. There was a similar sized nearby structure built of wood that was oriented around the Winter Solstice. This was an excellent program, "for the diffusion of geographical knowledge." biggrin.gif
midwestern
Sorry guys, I sticking to my stance. The feedback is bad because I was once warned in the Stonehenge days. biggrin.gif Guys, I've provided enough brilliance since coming back and all you have to do is search. Feedback score. dry.gif rolleyes.gif
midwestern
Stonehenge is aligned to the Sun. Period. Duh. Pathetic boneheads trying to disspell this man. tongue.gif
midwestern
Thanks Photojack for the backup. wink.gif smile.gif
gmilam
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 6 2008, 01:33 PM)
Stonehenge is aligned to the Sun. Period. Duh. Pathetic boneheads trying to disspell this man. tongue.gif

Aligned with the Solstice != clock
midwestern
Darn right, gmilam. smile.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 6 2008, 07:05 PM)
Darn right, gmilam.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

"!=" means "does not equal."
laugh.gif
midwestern
My respect for two men I thought were fairly smart has turned sour. TheDoc and M Pants aren't so hot. sad.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 6 2008, 07:55 PM)
My respect for two men I thought were fairly smart has turned sour. TheDoc and M Pants aren't so hot. sad.gif

Aww, did pointin out yer mistakes piss ya off? laugh.gif
By the way, ya still ain't given us even a single link to support yer claims.
midwestern
Read photojack. dry.gif mad.gif
midwestern
The negative feedback at this site is really positive. Thank you. laugh.gif
midwestern
I'll wait and stare at Liesegang rings while you fidget around MP. biggrin.gif
Edward 3
Hi Midwestern,
You must be making some sense - the Doc & Co. are seriously on your case - just ignore the assholes - actually there is really only one of it and I don´t really blame it personally - I blame whoever dug it up!!
I just ignore the feedback thing - it´s ok for the lowlife - not really for the intellectually superior - as in anything with two or more interconnecting brain cells !
regards
edward 3
kjw
QUOTE
photojack Posted: Today at 12:42 AM Did anyone see the National Geographic Channel's two hour special on Stonehenge last night? It clearly showed new archaeological evidence from Michael Parker Pearson's work linking it to burials AND the Summer Solstice celebrations of its builders, who incidentally pre-dated the Druids.

no i did not see that special. who were these builders ?
TheDoc
QUOTE (midwestern+)
My respect for two men I thought were fairly smart has turned sour. TheDoc and M Pants aren't so hot. sad.gif


Why? Because MjolnirPants challenged your assertion? Because we pointed out that not backing up your claims usually means you're full of hot air? Because you aren't capable of providing a logical debate?

QUOTE (Edward 3+)
You must be making some sense - the Doc & Co. are seriously on your case


So making an unbased claim, refusing to back it up, and then asserting that you are absolutely correct is "making sense"? You are such an idiot...
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 6 2008, 08:23 PM)
Read photojack. dry.gif mad.gif

QUOTE
Did anyone see the National Geographic Channel's two hour special on Stonehenge last night? It clearly showed new archaeological evidence from Michael Parker Pearson's work linking it to burials AND the Summer Solstice celebrations of its builders, who incidentally pre-dated the Druids. There was a similar sized nearby structure built of wood that was oriented around the Winter Solstice.

Please highlight the word "clock" in there for me, son. smile.gif
Yanno, farmers use the fall equinox as day t'guide their harvest. I guess that makes a farm a form o clock, don't it? We don't eat the food it produces or nothin, we jes use it to tell time, is that right?
laugh.gif
Keep graspin fer straws, son.
midwestern
Both have stunned me in their assertions of me not able to backup a claim proven on TV. Strange pair. Clock does equal either Solstice. How the heck do you think we tell time!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!! blink.gif blink.gif
midwestern
Thanks Edward3 for the backing. smile.gif
Edward 3
Hi Midwestern,
You´re more than welcome - Doc and Sec are actually the same "person" - and there´s lots more of them - Doc is kinda the leader but if he is feeling a bit unsure of himself he sends the trolls into action - he worries that he will displease certain members, so first he "tests the water" with the clones before committing himself. Interesting condition !!
regards
edward
midwestern
Good grief Edward3. TheDoc's displeasure is verbose and somewhat misplaced. Thanks for telling me. smile.gif
Edward 3
And, by the way, his favourite term of abuse is "delusional hypocrite" - nothing in his posts ( all 1700 of them !! ) to suggest he even knows the meaning of the term but he obviously found it somewhere and liked it - so now he tosses it around like confetti at a wedding - probably related to his otherwise limited vocabularly. Take all negative feedback from him and and his clones as a compliment.
regards
edward
wcelliott
As much as I hate being drawn into heated debates between people who don't do any research, neither Stonehenge nor the Pyramids are unique structures to their areas. Stonehenge is the largest and most photogenic "barrow", but there are other circular structures throughout SW England, so I'm thinking they actually served some purpose, like courts where criminals were tried/disputes settled. Alignment with the sun only makes sense, anyone who's ever dealt with courts even today knows the importance of The Court Date. Evidence of nearby burials makes sense, if the penalty for murder is death, they'd probably execute him there and then and drop him in a nearby grave.

As for the pyramids, them representing something religious because there are three of them on the Giza plateau falls apart when you look at the area on Google Earth's satellite imagery of the region and about find 20 of them dotted alongside the Nile floodplain. Smaller, older, but fairly regularly-spaced, with other structures either attached or nearby. I'm thinking they stored rainwater from the rainy season (winter) for the growing season (summer), which tended to be dry. Egyptians drank a lot of beer, too, and the thought occurred to me that some of those associated structures and smaller pyramids might simply have been breweries, close to the grain fields, made with rainwater rather than Nile water, which wasn't always safe to drink.
midwestern
Thanks for the info Edward3. smile.gif

Wcelliott THINKS HE HAS THE ANSWERS!!! I'll take the National Geographic Society special to heart, instead, with experts in the field knowing what did and didn't happen. blink.gif tongue.gif biggrin.gif
gmilam
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 8 2008, 01:05 PM)
Both have stunned me in their assertions of me not able to backup a claim proven on TV. Strange pair. Clock does equal either Solstice. How the heck do you think we tell time!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!! blink.gif blink.gif

Do you look at a clock to find out what day it is?
How about a calendar to find out what time it is?

I realize the concepts are somewhat related, but in a nutshell,

Clock = time.
Calendar = seasons.

Stonehenge does indeed appear to line up with the seasons... as do many ancient structures.
TheDoc
QUOTE
Both have stunned me in their assertions of me not able to backup a claim proven on TV.


You haven't been able to back up your claims, you complete liar. Trust me, you're not fooling anyone.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Both have stunned me in their assertions of me not able to backup a claim proven on TV.


You haven't been able to back up your claims, you complete liar. Trust me, you're not fooling anyone.

TheDoc's displeasure is verbose and somewhat misplaced.


Why? Because I pointed out that you were arm-waving? laugh.gif

QUOTE (Edward 3+)
Doc and Sec are actually the same "person"


Care to prove that, or are you going to slink away again? That's what you did in in here...

QUOTE
and there´s lots more of them - Doc is kinda the leader but if he is feeling a bit unsure of himself he sends the trolls into action - he worries that he will displease certain members, so first he "tests the water" with the clones before committing himself. Interesting condition !!


It's funny how you accuse me of sniping and "hit-and-run attacks" despite doing the exact same thing in at least three of my threads.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
and there´s lots more of them - Doc is kinda the leader but if he is feeling a bit unsure of himself he sends the trolls into action - he worries that he will displease certain members, so first he "tests the water" with the clones before committing himself. Interesting condition !!


It's funny how you accuse me of sniping and "hit-and-run attacks" despite doing the exact same thing in at least three of my threads.

And, by the way, his favourite term of abuse is "delusional hypocrite" - nothing in his posts ( all 1700 of them !! ) to suggest he even knows the meaning of the term


Wrong again bozo.

This is delusional and hypocritical.

This is delusional and hypocritical.

This is delusional and hypocritical.

This is delusional and hypocritical.

And that's all from one poster.

QUOTE
so now he tosses it around like confetti at a wedding - probably related to his otherwise limited vocabularly.


More hot air, more bluster, more unbased claims, more hypocrisy, but zero substance. In other words, an Edward 3 post.

midwestern
TheDoc blows. His insanity is quite embarassing. unsure.gif Nice temper. dry.gif FOLLOW THE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!
barakn
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 8 2008, 12:41 PM)
...neither Stonehenge nor the Pyramids are unique structures to their areas.  Stonehenge is the largest and most photogenic "barrow", but there are other circular structures throughout SW England, so I'm thinking they actually served some purpose, like courts where criminals were tried/disputes settled.  Alignment with the sun only makes sense, anyone who's ever dealt with courts even today knows the importance of The Court Date.  Evidence of nearby burials makes sense, if the penalty for murder is death, they'd probably execute him there and then and drop him in a nearby grave.

I'd agree that there is a bit too much obsession about certain sites over others, but they're burying criminals with precious gold artifacts and objects for use in the afterlife? link I don't think so. Courts are not the only reason for people to congregate together.
QUOTE
As for the pyramids, them representing something religious because there are three of them on the Giza plateau falls apart when you look at the area on Google Earth's satellite imagery of the region and about find 20 of them dotted alongside the Nile floodplain.  Smaller, older, but fairly regularly-spaced, with other structures either attached or nearby.  I'm thinking they stored rainwater from the rainy season (winter) for the growing season (summer), which tended to be dry.  Egyptians drank a lot of beer, too, and the thought occurred to me that some of those associated structures and smaller pyramids might simply have been breweries, close to the grain fields, made with rainwater rather than Nile water, which wasn't always safe to drink.

As for your pyramid theories - completely bogus. First of all, that there are more than three pyramids doesn't invalidate their religious significance. The idea that pyramids were used to store water is also laughable from an architectural point of view. Since their interior volume is almost completely stone, there isn't nearly enough room for water to justify the effort. The same argument applies to their use as breweries. Furthermore, since Egypt was a literate society, we know from their own writings what the purpose of most of the pyramids were - to house the bodies of pharaohs and other important personages.
TheDoc
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 8 2008, 09:08 PM)
TheDoc blows.  His insanity is quite embarassing. unsure.gif Nice temper. dry.gif FOLLOW THE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!

Your buddy brought up the subject, so I responded.

FOLLOW THE THREAD!
TheDoc
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 8 2008, 09:11 PM)
Good post barakn. We know for certain you're not a TheDoc alias. laugh.gif biggrin.gif

Your posted has been reported.

smile.gif
midwestern
Good, and you've been warned The Doc. biggrin.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 9 2008, 08:11 PM)
Good, and you've been warned The Doc. biggrin.gif

Dumb... Ya don't even know what ya said, I bet... laugh.gif laugh.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 9 2008, 08:40 PM)
MP, your a fool and 20% warn is now fact.

Tell me, does a fool make ridiculous claims without providin evidence?
Does a fool misunderstand when someone's disagreein with him?
Does a fool type with bad grammar?
Does a fool mistake a warnin that's been there fer quite some time as somethin new?

Cause you do all them things, son. All them... foolish... things. wink.gif
An yer post's been reported again.
These mods take their sweet time gettin to this stuff, but they do get to it. wink.gif
midwestern
Your The Doc. dry.gif
midwestern
The giveaway was when you mentioned the warning has been there for quite some time. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif biggrin.gif tongue.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 9 2008, 09:09 PM)
Your The Doc.

WRONG!!!
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

QUOTE
The giveaway was when you mentioned the warning has been there for quite some time.

Yeah, it ain't like other members can see that someone's been warned or anythin...
laugh.gif
midwestern
I'm finally going to stop this tag and run. tongue.gif I'm searching for substance and haven't hit the bullseye as of late. sad.gif smile.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 9 2008, 09:19 PM)
I'm finally going to stop this tag and run. I'm searching for substance and haven't hit the bullseye as of late.

Well, it helps if ya've got some o what yer lookin fer. That way, ya'd know it when ya find it, but keep lookin, son. I'm sure one day someone'll point some out to ya...

Ya gonna answer any o the questions I asked before ya git? Or do ya prefer to not make yer case in an argument?
TheDoc
QUOTE (midwestern+)
Good, and you've been warned The Doc.  biggrin.gif


I was warned back in April, you complete idiot! laugh.gif

QUOTE
Your The Doc.


Wrong again, sunshine. I don't need more than one alias. I didn't even create one when I was temp banned back in April.

Keep making all these idiotic claims. It'll only strengthen our argument.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Your The Doc.


Wrong again, sunshine. I don't need more than one alias. I didn't even create one when I was temp banned back in April.

Keep making all these idiotic claims. It'll only strengthen our argument.

The giveaway was when you mentioned the warning has been there for quite some time.


MjolnirPants joined on the 29th of March, I wasn't warned until April 14, you idiot.

If you going to troll the thread, at least try to be a bit less transparent.
wcelliott
True, courts aren't the only reason for people gathering, but neither are religious festivals/rituals, and it seems like that's the counter-position on both Stonehenge and the pyramids - places religious fanatics gathered for religious rites.

When a government invests significant resources in a building or structure, there's usually a practical purpose for it. Hoover wasn't buried at Hoover Dam. I'd hate to think that archeologists a thousand years from now would waste a lot of time looking for his tomb in all that concrete.

I know full well that the established beliefs are that the pyramids are tombs of the pharaohs. I just don't agree with the established beliefs. They look more like waterworks projects than tombs.

Remember, in their religion, the inscriptions decorating the walls of the tombs weren't just decoration, they became real in the spiritual world that the pharaohs' soul lived in after death. A drawing of a bowl of fruit would provide the pharaoh's spirit with fruit to eat any time he was hungry. Drawings of slaves were there to serve him in the afterlife. The whole of the interior of the tombs of the more successful pharaohs were inscribed with his honors, his deeds, accounts of how beloved he was by him people, etc., because that all became Truth in the afterlife.

Where are the inscriptions to the pharaohs in the Great Pyramid? If it were a tomb, it'd be the equivalent of solitary confinement for all eternity. No drawings or inscriptions anywhere. An Egyptian would bury his dead pet with more care than that.

As for some of the bodies entombed at Stonehenge having gold jewelry, maybe those were the graves of revered kings or judges that served there, and the bodies of the executed were buried elsewhere. I'm not claiming omniscience, I'm just recognizing that before England had one king, it had Balkan-type border disputes and common criminals, and they must've had courts. I suspect Stonehenge was the Supreme Court and UN, both at the same time. Yes, certainly, it had aspects that allowed it to function as a calendar, but that's so that people from different kingdoms could know when to meet to resolve their disputes. The form was adopted from smaller, more local barrows, where petty criminals and minor disputes were resolved, IMO.

I'd love to hear from someone who actually studied the history of the region and could provide information on how many local kingdoms there were in that region at that time. I'd bet that there was one for each bluestone.

photojack
wcelliott, Please read up on Zahi Hawass, the globally recognized, world expert on Egyptology. Those pyramids were definite burial places for those Pharaohs. They were used for a relatively brief period and underground burial chambers like the ones in the Valley of the Kings were used most of the rest of the dynasties. I've been there and spent a month traversing Egypt to photograph nearly every monument and temple. Egyptology is fascinating and I have amassed about a hundred books on the topic. New discoveries are being found constantly, like the "Golden Mummies" from the early Roman period.

Did you watch the National Geographic special on Stonehenge? They have extensive information at their website.
excaza
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 8 2008, 01:05 PM)
How the heck do you think we tell time!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!! blink.gif blink.gif

The cycles of radiation that correspond to energy level transitions in an atom. Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!
midwestern
Did I miss something excaza. laugh.gif The other two need not another reply after their complete outbursts of violence and absurdities. dry.gif
excaza
You asked how we told time, as if using a calendar is somehow the same as using a clock.

We tell time using an atomic clock.
midwestern
I understand. Thanks for the explanation. smile.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (midwestern+Jun 10 2008, 07:29 PM)
Did I miss something excaza. laugh.gif The other two need not another reply after their complete outbursts of violence and absurdities. dry.gif

Violence? Who'se -ss did I kick? I ain't kicked no -ss in a while, son! laugh.gif
An absurdities? What absurdity? Askin you to provide evidence fer yer claims (claims which run contrary to scientific consensus, mind) is absurd? Providin evidence that my views are the same as the scientific consensus is absurd?
laugh.gif
Yer so lost...
It's so funny... laugh.gif
midwestern
Stonehenge, the sundial is copied by Carhenge in Alliance, Nebraska, of course. ohmy.gif huh.gif tongue.gif Vandals recently popped Carhenge for additional information on this national monument. laugh.gif
midwestern
http://www.worldslargestthings.com/washington/carhenge.htm

The link.
wcelliott
QUOTE
I've been there and spent a month traversing Egypt to photograph nearly every monument and temple. Egyptology is fascinating and I have amassed about a hundred books on the topic.


So, in any of your books, are there any pharoahs' tombs that had no inscriptions on the walls?

Or were there any pharaohs found in any pyramids?

I'm familiar with Hawass' reputation. Seems like a nice guy. I'm not saying he's an idiot, I'm just saying I've been inside the Hoover Dam, and I've been inside tombs, and the pyramids remind me more of Hoover Dam than any tomb.

Granite was the steel of ancient Egypt - the strongest material they had. The assumption that it served a decorative purpose in the Pyramid, like marble in a mausoleum, doesn't quite fit the plaster slathered by hand in the cracks and seams in the granite where they would've leaked water. You'd take more care plastering your garage wall. And this was the resting place of a beloved pharaoh? I don't think so.

As for Stonehenge, did any of your documentaries mention how many changes it went through over the centuries it was in-use? It's architecture evolved over time. That's inconsistent with it being a place built to sustain religious rituals, but consistent with a working building that serves a purpose. Some graves had gold, some were just pits with cremated remains. That's consistent with judges/ambassadors who died of natural causes (buried with gold), and murderers/thieves executed on-site (buried cremated ashes).

I'm sure there are thousands of authorities who disagree with the points above, but I don't really care about credentials, I'm more interested in theories that make sense.
barakn
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 12 2008, 10:21 PM)
...I've been inside the Hoover Dam, and I've been inside tombs, and the pyramids remind me more of Hoover Dam than any tomb.


Well, I've been in several dams myself and a dozen gold mines and caves, and the pyramids remind me more of gold mines and caves than of dams. And then consider the exterior shape - the dams are curved walls whose obvious function is to hold a large mass of water behind them, not inside them. The pyramid has a shape unlike any large above ground water storage I've ever seen. Cisterns and water towers are usually round, a shape that holds the most water for the engineering buck. There's also the most obvious point of all (one I made before and you ignored), that the ratio of the empty volume of a pyramid compared to the volume of rock is so minuscule that one has to wonder why anyone would build something so vast to hold such a tiny amount of water.
QUOTE

Granite was the steel of ancient Egypt - the strongest material they had.  The assumption that it served a decorative purpose in the Pyramid, like marble in a mausoleum, doesn't quite fit the plaster slathered by hand in the cracks and seams in the granite where they would've leaked water.  You'd take more care plastering your garage wall.  And this was the resting place of a beloved pharaoh?  I don't think so.
Perhaps it was sealed to keep insects and vermin out. Who wants creatures nibbling on one's pharaoh?
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Granite was the steel of ancient Egypt - the strongest material they had.  The assumption that it served a decorative purpose in the Pyramid, like marble in a mausoleum, doesn't quite fit the plaster slathered by hand in the cracks and seams in the granite where they would've leaked water.  You'd take more care plastering your garage wall.  And this was the resting place of a beloved pharaoh?  I don't think so.
Perhaps it was sealed to keep insects and vermin out. Who wants creatures nibbling on one's pharaoh?
As for Stonehenge, did any of your documentaries mention how many changes it went through over the centuries it was in-use?  It's architecture evolved over time.  That's inconsistent with it being a place built to sustain religious rituals, but consistent with a working building that serves a purpose.  Some graves had gold, some were just pits with cremated remains.  That's consistent with judges/ambassadors who died of natural causes (buried with gold), and murderers/thieves executed on-site (buried cremated ashes).
You've just ruled out religious rituals simply because of architectural changes? In that case St. Peter's Basilica isn't religious. And no telling why you've ruled out other non-judicial uses, like legislative purposes. Perhaps they gathered there to apply the law AND make the law. Considering the nature of religion, especially before the modern push to separate state and religion, there's a good chance the judicial, legislative, and religious duties were all entwined together into the same ritual.
QUOTE
I'm more interested in theories that make sense.

Don't worry, we'll let you know when yours start making sense.
wcelliott
Modern dams are made of concrete, and you can pour concrete into curved forms.

When you're working with quarried stone, you need something that you can make out of blocks.

You can make a dam with blocks. Just a wall, but you have to make it thicker at the bottom due to hydrostatic pressure ("head"). So the cross-section of that dam would be something like:

/|

If you wanted to make a reservoir, you could make four such dams, laid out as a square. It'd be like a swimming pool, except above-ground. If you did nothing but allow it to collect rainfall in the rainy season, it'd dry out as fast as mud puddles do. One trick you could use is to fill the pool with sand, to slow the evaporation. If you need to, you can try this experiment yourself. Take two identical buckets, fill one bucket with sand, and then add water to both and leave them both outside. Find out which dries out first. (The sand will stay wet longer due to less evaporation.) You can add one more step to the experiment and add a layer of aluminum foil over the buckets, and neither will lose much water. Covering the pool is a good idea if you want to save water. Trouble is, the materials they had to work with didn't lend themselves to the most obvious solutions we'd use today. Rock doesn't work well in tension, it has to be supported.

So you have to have stones inside the pool to support the roof. But it's OK, because these stones don't have to be perfect cubes, they can be irregular, because the water will soak into the spaces between them. And you'll add a polished highly clean layer of limestone that's almost air-tight over the whole thing, like the aluminum foil in the bucket experiment.

We'd use steel in tension to make a cylinder to store the water, but they didn't have steel. They did, however, know how to make dams and plaster the cracks so they didn't leak. They weren't optimally-efficient, but they were big and they could store a lot of water, and sometimes that's all it takes to make the difference between a failed growing season and a bumper crop.

In your library of books on the pyramids, look through the various pictures. When the lighting is just right, you can see that the Great Pyramid looks subtly different about 1/3rd of the way up. This, IMO, is where the plastered reservoir ended and the roof began.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 14 2008, 07:34 AM)
Modern dams are made of concrete, and you can pour concrete into curved forms.

When you're working with quarried stone, you need something that you can make out of blocks.

You can make a dam with blocks. Just a wall, but you have to make it thicker at the bottom due to hydrostatic pressure ("head"). So the cross-section of that dam would be something like:

/|

Even when ya pour em with concrete, they look like that. It's a principle o dam buildin.


I gotta tell ya, per presentin yer theory with a civility most folk with their own theories don't have here, but the theory itself jes' ain't all it's cracked up to be.
It raises so many questions...
1. Why do most o the pyramids have inscriptions in em, even if the great pyramid don't?
2. Why spend so much time n energy buildin huge buildins than can only hold a couple thousand gallons?
3. Why'd we find mummies inside the pyramids?
4. Why were the pyramids designed like tombs, complete with curses n traps?
5. The most important question of em all...
Why did the Egyptians need water storage with the Nile river right there?
wcelliott
QUOTE
I gotta tell ya, per presentin yer theory with a civility most folk with their own theories don't have here, but the theory itself jes' ain't all it's cracked up to be.
It raises so many questions...
1. Why do most o the pyramids have inscriptions in em, even if the great pyramid don't?
2. Why spend so much time n energy buildin huge buildins than can only hold a couple thousand gallons?
3. Why'd we find mummies inside the pyramids?
4. Why were the pyramids designed like tombs, complete with curses n traps?
5. The most important question of em all...
Why did the Egyptians need water storage with the Nile river right there?


I appreciate your civility, as well.

1. Do most of the pyramids actually have inscriptions in them, or are we getting them confused with the tombs in the Valley of the Kings? I haven't heard of any inscriptions in any of the pyramids.

2. The Great Pyramid would hold about 25% of 150feet tall (1/3rd the way up) with about 250 foot square base (too early to do the actual trig, these numbers are ball-park), which is actually a substantial amount of water.

3. Were mummies ever actually found in any of the pyramids? I know that's where they come from in popular movies, but there were no mummies in the Great Pyramid (nor was there a sarcophagus in either the Queen's Chamber nor the King's chamber). Grave robbers of the tombs usually steal the jewelry and whatever trinkets they figure they can fence, but leave the bodies where they found them.

4. I don't think they *were* designed like tombs, either with curses or traps. The *tombs* were inscribed, top-to-bottom, with everything they'd need/want in their afterlife, beautiful, artisticly rendered, with utmost care. No inscriptions in the Great Pyramid. None, other than one worker's grafitti in an out-of-the-way place nobody'd notice. In the King's Chamber, directly above the "sarcophagus" (big granite bathtub-looking thing, carved from one single huge granite block), there are five thick granite slabs, and directly where the pharaoh would be staring, if he *could* see, the bottom slab was cracked, and the crack plastered with no apparent effort at making the plaster aesthetically pleasing. It was a functional fix, IMO, never meant for the Pharaoh's eyes. (You'd expect the Pharaoh to take a look inside his tomb while he was having it built, right?)

5. The Nile's water wasn't always safe to drink. (Several mentions of this in the Bible.) Also, the floodplain where they grew their crops inclines as you get further from the Nile, so irrigating the land closest to the Giza plateau would be the hardest to do. Their weather back then was more humid, but it was starting to dry out, but they still had rainy winters. Storing rainwater that fell on the Giza plateau would be a good idea, and a smart move on the Pharaoh's part. Remember, in their culture, the Pharaoh wasn't just the guy running the government, he was a living god, responsible for floods and draughts. I expect the Pharaohs themselves recognized that this wasn't true (them being gods), but they were still held responsible for draughts. So if I were a pharaoh, one of the first things I'd do is try to ensure that the people got enough food to eat and clean water to drink. As an engineer, I might've made some changes to the basic design, but I think they had a great idea and implemented it well.

And buried the pharaohs someplace else.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 14 2008, 04:14 PM)

I appreciate your civility, as well.

1. Do most of the pyramids actually have inscriptions in them, or are we getting them confused with the tombs in the Valley of the Kings? I haven't heard of any inscriptions in any of the pyramids.

2. The Great Pyramid would hold about 25% of 150feet tall (1/3rd the way up) with about 250 foot square base (too early to do the actual trig, these numbers are ball-park), which is actually a substantial amount of water.

3. Were mummies ever actually found in any of the pyramids? I know that's where they come from in popular movies, but there were no mummies in the Great Pyramid (nor was there a sarcophagus in either the Queen's Chamber nor the King's chamber). Grave robbers of the tombs usually steal the jewelry and whatever trinkets they figure they can fence, but leave the bodies where they found them.

4. I don't think they *were* designed like tombs, either with curses or traps. The *tombs* were inscribed, top-to-bottom, with everything they'd need/want in their afterlife, beautiful, artisticly rendered, with utmost care. No inscriptions in the Great Pyramid. None, other than one worker's grafitti in an out-of-the-way place nobody'd notice. In the King's Chamber, directly above the "sarcophagus" (big granite bathtub-looking thing, carved from one single huge granite block), there are five thick granite slabs, and directly where the pharaoh would be staring, if he *could* see, the bottom slab was cracked, and the crack plastered with no apparent effort at making the plaster aesthetically pleasing. It was a functional fix, IMO, never meant for the Pharaoh's eyes. (You'd expect the Pharaoh to take a look inside his tomb while he was having it built, right?)

5. The Nile's water wasn't always safe to drink. (Several mentions of this in the Bible.) Also, the floodplain where they grew their crops inclines as you get further from the Nile, so irrigating the land closest to the Giza plateau would be the hardest to do. Their weather back then was more humid, but it was starting to dry out, but they still had rainy winters. Storing rainwater that fell on the Giza plateau would be a good idea, and a smart move on the Pharaoh's part. Remember, in their culture, the Pharaoh wasn't just the guy running the government, he was a living god, responsible for floods and draughts. I expect the Pharaohs themselves recognized that this wasn't true (them being gods), but they were still held responsible for draughts. So if I were a pharaoh, one of the first things I'd do is try to ensure that the people got enough food to eat and clean water to drink. As an engineer, I might've made some changes to the basic design, but I think they had a great idea and implemented it well.

And buried the pharaohs someplace else.

1. Yeah. Not much, but even the great pyramid had an inscription. User posted image: User posted image
2. Great Pyramid Diagram
3. There was a sarcoophagus in the King's chamber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza
QUOTE
Despite precautions such as covering the entrance hole with casing and the portcullises, even before the Old Kingdom ended thieves simply bypassed all the barriers, digging through the soft limestone and breaking a corner of Khufu's red granite sarophagus while removing the lid.

4. Yer right, I spoke without double checkin meself. I can't find no indication o a curse. Not so with traps. Check out that layout o the great pyramid again. Also, as fer the lack o enscriptions in the king's chamber, them things are purty valuable, even the year after he was buried (maybe even more valuable then than now.) Why would you expect a room that unknown folk have broken into to have anythin o value left in it? An it's not like ya'd want to carve any inscriptions into the solid rock, anyways. What if ya mess up yer phaeroh's afterlife with a missplaced crack? Naw, ya'd put the inscriptions into the plaster ye'd cover the walls in to finish em out. That way, any mistakes can be corrected.
5. The pyramids wouldn't have collected much rainwater. First, they didn't have much room to store it in, they was mostly solid rock. Second, they ain't exactly a prime shape fer catching rain water, with a point at the top an all. Artificial ponds lined with rock an pitch woulda worked a million times better. Third, they don't show any signs o havin been used fer that purpose. Fourth, the dirtiest, nastiest water is drinkable, as long as there's no lime in it an it gets boiled. Fifth, boilin ain't the only purification method, lettin water sit fer a while would do that, too. Bacteria an mud an such tend to sink, leavin clear water on top.
wcelliott
QUOTE
1. Yeah. Not much, but even the great pyramid had an inscription. User posted image: User posted image
2. Great Pyramid Diagram
3. There was a sarcoophagus in the King's chamber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza


Following the links you provided only supported my arguments.

1. The inscription you provided was the grafitti I mentioned. It isn't quite the same level of inscriptions that go into pharaohs' tombs.

2. I'm pretty familiar with the interior of the Great Pyramid's structures. I have theories about what they're for, too. (Pumping the water out when it's needed.)

3. From your link:
"The sarcophagus of the King's Chamber was hollowed out of a single piece of Red Aswan granite and has been found to be too large to fit through the passageway leading to the chamber. Whether the sarcophagus was ever intended to house a body is unknown. It is too short to accommodate a medium height individual without the bending of the knees, a technique not practiced in Egyptian burial, and no lid was ever found."

4. Not sure what your main point was, but the "solid rock" interior was actually rather loosely packed irregular stones set with some sand between them to stabilize the stones. That's where my 25% void space estimate comes from, not the volumes of the Grand Gallery and King's and Queen's Chambers, but the rest of the volume of the pyramid. Blocks of stone and sand in between is the perfect aquifer. If you live in the country and have a well, this is the sort of aquifer you want for well water.

As for the granite being pretty enough as it was, with no inscriptions in the Kings Chamber, the bottom slab directly above the "sarcophagus" (which looks more like a firebox to me) was cracked and the crack plastered by hand. The repair would've been functional, but would've looked like cr@p even when it was originally done. And that's the stone directly above the "sarcophagus", something the pharaoh would have to look at for all eternity. That tells me this was not intended as a burial place for a pharaoh or anyone else, but a waterworks project. You *would* settle for a hand-schmeared plaster repair of cracked granite slab if the plaster was sufficient to keep the water out of the crack, even if it looked like cr@p, it'd do the job. (There are other such plastered seams in the Grand Gallery. They also look like cr@p.)

Sorry, I'm sticking with my original theory - They collected rainwater and stored it for drinking and/or ensuring that the crops would come in at the end of the growing season, stabilizing the economy of Egypt. Since the Pharaohs were considered "gods", they were responsible for droughts as well as for their peoples' welfare. Knowing themselves to be humans, they'd want some backup plan to provide for their people when the weather didn't cooperate.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 15 2008, 07:46 AM)
Following the links you provided only supported my arguments...

Maybe so, maybe not. It all depends on how ya interpet it.
I'll tell ya one thing that'll disprove yer theory, though. An I don't mean "strongly suggest that yer wrong." I mean dis-friggan-prove it.
...
...
Drum roll, please...
...
...
Ancient egyptian plaster contained lime. As a major ingredient.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/529624

Sorry bud, but yer theory assumes that the egyptians woulda purposefully an knowingly exposed their water supplies to a very toxic substance.

I do give ya kudos fer arguin it calmly an rationally, though. That's more'n most folk here'll ever do.
barakn
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jun 16 2008, 02:35 PM)
Maybe so, maybe not. It all depends on how ya interpet it.
I'll tell ya one thing that'll disprove yer theory, though. An I don't mean "strongly suggest that yer wrong." I mean dis-friggan-prove it.
...
...
Drum roll, please...
...
...
Ancient egyptian plaster contained lime. As a major ingredient.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/529624

Sorry bud, but yer theory assumes that the egyptians woulda purposefully an knowingly exposed their water supplies to a very toxic substance.

I do give ya kudos fer arguin it calmly an rationally, though. That's more'n most folk here'll ever do.

Your own article mentions evidence of lime plaster in Egypt only as far back as 1400 B.C.E., which is about 1160 years too late to have been used for the Great Pyramid. Furthermore you haven't provided any evidence that lime plaster is actually toxic. Certainly it does start out as calcium hydroxide which is a dangerous caustic substance, but it absorbs carbon dioxide from the air as it sets, forming calcium carbonate, a benign and mostly water insoluble product.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (barakn+Jun 16 2008, 09:21 PM)
Your own article mentions evidence of lime plaster in Egypt only as far back as 1400 B.C.E., which is about 1160 years too late to have been used for the Great Pyramid. Furthermore you haven't provided any evidence that lime plaster is actually toxic. Certainly it does start out as calcium hydroxide which is a dangerous caustic substance, but it absorbs carbon dioxide from the air as it sets, forming calcium carbonate, a benign and mostly water insoluble product.

Well, while the abstract specifically mentions the period from 1400-1200 BC, it goes on to note that lime plaster was found in Jericho, -only 200 miles away- as far back as 6500 BC. I can't bring myself to believe that a better material than pure gypsum plaster wouldn't have made it that far in 4000 years, especially given the egyptian's proclivities fer buildin big.

Gypsum plaster is the specific type o plaster used in the pyramids. While lime plaster is the subject o that article, (which I admit was pretty badly linked, I simply googled "lime plaster egypt" an posted the link without readin it too well) there's a serious problem with usin gypsum plaster on walls an ceilins. It takes forever to dry, an it's not very sticky. Now, if ya add some lime to that, it becomes sticky an faster dryin.
Calcium oxide
Then, it's useful fer walls n ceilings.

Castle Cement - Health and Safety data sheet
Gives a bit o info about proper handlin o lime plasters.
Findin info on the toxicity o lime plaster is rough, but I can tell ya this: It's not approved by the state o florida buildin codes fer use in any water storage capacity. In fact, ya have to use materials which do not contain any lime.
Florida Buildin Code online
barakn
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 14 2008, 01:34 AM)
Modern dams are made of concrete, and you can pour concrete into curved forms.

When you're working with quarried stone, you need something that you can make out of blocks.

Concrete evidence suggests otherwise. I have personally visited numerous Inca sites in Peru and Bolivia and can vouch for their ability to create curved surfaces out of stone much harder than limestone, and without the use of copper tools that the Egyptians had access to. Furthermore the Egyptians' own fondness for statues belies their ability to create curved surfaces. Also, if the number of blocks used to make a wall is large enough, then the blocks' shape needs to deviate only a little bit from square to curve the wall.
QUOTE
In your library of books on the pyramids, look through the various pictures.  When the lighting is just right, you can see that the Great Pyramid looks subtly different about 1/3rd of the way up.  This, IMO, is where the plastered reservoir ended and the roof began.

You state 1/3 the height of the Great Pyramid, 138.8 meters, as the height of its reservoir, or 46 meters. You then claim a usable interior volume of 25%. If we use your value and assume as you have that rain would fill it up, then you are expecting that the Egyptians were willing to wait for .25x46 meters = 12 meters of rain to fill it up. Even in the rainiest rain forest 4 meters of rain a year is a large value, so in Egypt it would have taken decades or centuries to fill, and that's not counting evaporation, leaks, or intentional use. The fill time becomes smaller as the usable volume decreases, but one other thing also decreases - the odds that builders would be willing to make such a large structure to hold that volume of water.

I have demonstrated that rain-filling is unfeasible. The other methods of putting water in are not passive. At 1 atmosphere of pressure, suction can't lift water more than 10.3 meters, and thus it would take 5 pump stations to lift water to the top of the reservoir, and it's unlikely the Egyptians knew how to make mechanical pumps anyway. This leaves only one other likely method, which is beasts and people schlepping water up the pyramid in bags and bottles. Since the pyramid was originally cased with a smooth surface, this would have presented a challenge for them walking up. Perhaps ropes were used to drag the water containers up the side? Water is not as dense as stone and the volume of water would have been less than the original volume of stone, so it would take less work than the 20 years it is estimated to have taken to build the pyramid. However they would have to take greater care transporting the water so as not to rupture the vessels holding it. My best guess is that it would still take many years to fill it with water. And we haven't even discussed where the water is coming from. As you have kindly pointed out, the Giza plateau is well above the Nile. Where did the water come from?

Furthermore you're claim implies that after building the lower 1/3 of the building, the actual reservoir and buttress, they continued building a pyramid-shaped roof as the remaining two thirds of the building, despite the extra effort in hauling rocks up the extra height. The peak of this roof and the outer casement would have shed any rain quite well, so it makes a horrible rain catcher. Flat would have made a lot more sense. Why did they continue on - because it looked cool?
wcelliott
You make some worthy points, my estimate of 25% void volume is probably too high, it may be closer to 10%. There should be ways of doing the math, but none occur to me at the moment.

The idea as I'd first thought of it was when watching a documentary on ancient Egypt, and how variable the floods were. They came yearly, like clockwork, but there was an optimum height, and anything much less and there'd be famine, and much more they'd have property damage, so they built a flood-meter for the Nile to help the pharaoh make plans. The program said about one year in seven was too low to ensure enough food for the people.

So let's take those two numbers and recalculate the rainfall needed that seventh year.

The 10% figure effectively multiplies the annual rainfall by 10x in storage height, and let's say they used it once every seven years (storing six). That's be (46m/10*6) or about two feet per year of rainfall collected. It was a wetter climate back then, the Giza Plateau was covered with vegetation and had a creek flowing through the area. But it was getting noticeably drier (in the time scale of pharoahs' dynasties).

Why not a flat roof? Good question, but we have sump pumps these days that can pump water 150 feet, from the bottom of a well, up. As you correctly point out, a suction pump only works 10meters (usually less). The reservoir was about 150 feet deep. They needed a means of pumping the water out of the reservoir. That's what I think the "King's" and "Queen's" Chambers were. I think the "sarcophagus" that was too short for a fully-grown man was actually a firebox, intended to heat the granite slabs above it to high temperatures, and that water would be introduced into the King's Chamber (by means TBD), and would flash-boil to steam, which would be driven into the Queen's Chamber, forcing the water between the two chambers (in the Grand Gallery) up and out of the Great Pyramid.

Supporting this I have two factoids, not quite compelling, but interesting.

When investigating the granite slabs above the "sarcophagus" (the bottom one of which was cracked and plastered by hand), investigators found black material of unknown origin which they postulated was probably insect remains. I think they should've done a more rigorous analysis of that material, I think it was ash from the wood burned in the granite firebox ("sarcophagus").

The other piece of the mystery is that the "air shafts" aren't at the same angle, and the longer one exits the pyramid lower than the shorter one, and has a bend in it, as if it were originally intended to exit at the same height. When you take physics, they describe hydrostatics before they describe hydrodynamics. According to hydrostatics, you'd have the same hydrostatic head (pressure) in the two "air shafts" if they both started at the King's Chamber and exited the Pyramid at the same height, so flow should be equal for both airshafts, right? That'd be true (approximately) for slow-flowing water, but once you build up a hot steam bubble behind a big column of water, it doesn't flow slowly, and you have to take the resistance of the pipe into consideration in order to keep the flow equal in the two "air vents". I think they designed it originally based on hydrostatic assumptions, then mid-construction ran a test and discovered hydrodynamics, and lowered the outlet of the longer "air vent" to compensate for the greater hydrodynamic backpressure.

It's interesting to me that one "air shaft goes east toward the known cropland/floodplain, but the other goes west, to land that wasn't known to be farmed, Maybe the point of the Great Pyramid was to double the land available for growing crops, as well as providing insurance against those seven-year droughts.

So as I see it, it was either a masterpiece of engineering that served a real purpose, stabilizing an empire's source of food and drinking water, or it was a collosal yet cr@ppy tomb constructed for the sake of the ego of the pharaoh.

Anyone have a third option?
photojack
wcelliott, It was a colossal, but NOT cr@ppy tomb constructed for the sake of the ego of the pharaoh. There is not one scrap of evidence pointing to its use as a reservoir or water storage facility. Your "factoids" do not hold up to scientific scrutiny and if the sarcophagus was really a firebox, as you claim, it would still show tell-tale marks. Also, granite of that thickness would crack with the intense heat of a fire within it and that size of a "firebox" would be totally inadequate to heat even the small volume of water within the chamber. I have never seen a more "crackpot" hypothesis, (pun intended!) ((laugh.gif))
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 17 2008, 06:08 AM)
Anyone have a third option?

I do. I'll explain it soon, first I wanna say somethin here...

QUOTE (Photojack+)
Your "factoids" do not hold up to scientific scrutiny

Now, that ain't quite true. Wcelliot ain't lyin or makin stuff up here, he's jes interpretin the evidence in an alternative (albiet highly unlikely) manner.

QUOTE
I have never seen a more "crackpot" hypothesis

Put him on the Crackpot Index, an he'd look like a real archeologist. I agree with ya that he's wrong, but give the man credit where credit's due. He ain't Fartsite or Zerkov or no1cares or StupidA.

Ok, now back to what I was gonna propose.
First, I propose that the interior walls o the pyramids were clad in plaster. Plaster has been used since pre-history to make the task o decoratin walls easier. After all, would ya rather try to carve a relief in stone, where any mistake'd be there forever, or in plaster, where ya can fix yer mistakes? Plaster's also easier to carve, an the reliefs woulda been valuable stuff, if some thieves could get it off the walls, which I can tell ya is quite possible. It's purty easy, too*.
Second, I then propose that the pyramids weren't ugly at all. In fact, they'd 'a been rather beautiful, assumin that the builders decorated more'n the walls.
So all in all, me third option is this: A massive, impressive, beautiful tomb an religious artifact built to satisfy the egos o folk what considered themselves gods.




*Ya pack a light glue (honey'd do, although I use a glue specially made fer it) with a filler material (sawdust & cloth is what I use) then use it to cover the relief until ya got a flat surface. Then ya smear it with a better glue an stick a piece o wood to it, to hold it stiff. Then ya jes cut away the plaster aroun it an tap on the wall with a hammer next to the area yer removin, while puttin lateral pressure on the wood. If yer careful, you can get a relief off a wall with little to no damage to it, this way.
wcelliott
QUOTE
if the sarcophagus was really a firebox, as you claim, it would still show tell-tale marks. Also, granite of that thickness would crack with the intense heat of a fire within it and that size of a "firebox" would be totally inadequate to heat even the small volume of water within the chamber.


The "sarcophagus" *is* cracked.

The point of the firebox would've been to heat the five granite slabs above the firebox as hot as fire could make them, *then* introduce water into the King's Chamber, and when the chamber was sufficiently full for the water to come into contact with the top of the water to touch the *very* hot granite, it'd flash-boil a small volume of that water into a high-pressure steam bubble, which would force the remaining volume of water out the two "air vents".

The point of the firebox wasn't to create steam for steam's sake, it was to create a pressure pulse capable of emptying the King's Chamber (which was made from granite because it was the strongest material available to them, and could handle the pressure.

BTW, the roof on most houses are arched. Rain still falls on it, and collecting it is a simple matter of using a gutter. That's an easy way to get rainwater into the Pyramid, and if you look carefully at the pictures of the Pyramid, you can see openings into the remaining structure about a 1/3 of the way up.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 21 2008, 02:35 AM)

The "sarcophagus" *is* cracked.

The point of the firebox would've been to heat the five granite slabs above the firebox as hot as fire could make them, *then* introduce water into the King's Chamber, and when the chamber was sufficiently full for the water to come into contact with the top of the water to touch the *very* hot granite, it'd flash-boil a small volume of that water into a high-pressure steam bubble, which would force the remaining volume of water out the two "air vents".

The point of the firebox wasn't to create steam for steam's sake, it was to create a pressure pulse capable of emptying the King's Chamber (which was made from granite because it was the strongest material available to them, and could handle the pressure.

It should show other signs o bein used that way. Some ash or scorchin.

An ya gotta admit, that explaination ya give is a bit o a stretch...

They coulda made it more efficient by makin a bigger firebox. They coulda cut in grooves and such in which the mounts fer a bellows would be. They coulda carved extra shafts fer increased air fer the fire, but they did none o these things...
Not very efficient.
An I jes don't think it'd work they way ya describe it. Yer talkin about fairly low pressures, in comparison to the amount o water. I'd have to see some math before I took that explaination as likely.
wcelliott
QUOTE
They coulda made it more efficient by makin a bigger firebox.


It was carved from a single block of granite, and as it was, it was larger than the opening to the King's Chamber.

If they could've carved it longer, it'd look more like a sarcophagus, too, as it was too short for an average sized person to fit into without bending his knees (no mummies of pharaohs were ever before seen buried bow-legged).

I don't really agree that a larger firebox would've made it more efficient, the five slabs above the firebox were there to capture and store the heat. If they needed more heat, they could easily have just let the fire burn longer, same amount of wood, same amount of heat released, just takes longer to "charge" the heat-exchanger (the five granite slabs above the firebox). Also, if you made the firebox bigger, you'd have to make the slabs above them bigger, so you'd need more fire and a bigger King's Chamber...

Engineering is a matter of picking the right set of compromises as the set-point for the design.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 21 2008, 03:33 AM)
It was carved from a single block of granite, and as it was, it was larger than the opening to the King's Chamber.






Didn't need to be a single block fer a firebox. Two or three smaller blocks coulda made a larger firebox, easier'n one box. They coulda also been replaced easier if they needed it. Folk tend to build functional stuff with an eye to maintainance, but not so much with asthetic stuff. It means carvin it from a single peice was important fer one reason or another, implyin it were somethin other than a firebox. Also, There's quite a distance from it to the roof. It's not high enough to put a whole lotta heat into the ceilin stones. Also, it'd have been easier to work with if it were elevated, with an openin near the bottom through which to load fuel. Also, tiltin the edges o the box outward woulda worked better on reflectin heat up into the ceilin. An like I said before, a bellows an more (or bigger) air passages woulda been advisable, too. An fer that matter, the air passages coulda stood to be much lower with regards to the firebox.
User posted image: User posted image

QUOTE
If they could've carved it longer, it'd look more like a sarcophagus, too, as it was too short for an average sized person to fit into without bending his knees (no mummies of pharaohs were ever before seen buried bow-legged).

Coulda been meant fer a young'un. Coulda been meant fer a 3/4 scale likeness. Coulda been meant to stay empty, representing their pharoahs' immortality. Who's to say? Firebox or functional sarcophagus ain't the only two options.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If they could've carved it longer, it'd look more like a sarcophagus, too, as it was too short for an average sized person to fit into without bending his knees (no mummies of pharaohs were ever before seen buried bow-legged).

Coulda been meant fer a young'un. Coulda been meant fer a 3/4 scale likeness. Coulda been meant to stay empty, representing their pharoahs' immortality. Who's to say? Firebox or functional sarcophagus ain't the only two options.

I don't really agree that a larger firebox would've made it more efficient, the five slabs above the firebox were there to capture and store the heat.  If they needed more heat, they could easily have just let the fire burn longer, same amount of wood, same amount of heat released, just takes longer to "charge" the heat-exchanger (the five granite slabs above the firebox).

An that's where the issue is. It'd take longer. Why set up to make yerself take longer?

QUOTE
Also, if you made the firebox bigger, you'd have to make the slabs above them bigger, so you'd need more fire and a bigger King's Chamber...

Why? Why would ya need to make the slabs bigger? The box don't take up even half the room, as is.
User posted image: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/images/kingschamber.jpg

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Also, if you made the firebox bigger, you'd have to make the slabs above them bigger, so you'd need more fire and a bigger King's Chamber...

Why? Why would ya need to make the slabs bigger? The box don't take up even half the room, as is.
User posted image: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/images/kingschamber.jpg

Engineering is a matter of picking the right set of compromises as the set-point for the design.

Yeah, but necessary compromises.
DuzmA
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/jul/06/research.arts

That is what I was talking about early in the thread.
wcelliott
QUOTE
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/jul/06/research.arts

That is what I was talking about early in the thread.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/jul/06/research.arts

That is what I was talking about early in the thread.


In fact, scientists have shown that Stonehenge was not built in one single act of construction, but was put together over a period of more than 1,500 years in a series of successive modifications and improvements. Nor was it built by the druids, the people most often associated with the site. In fact, many more ancient tribes and societies - individuals attempting to make their impact on the landscape of England - were responsible.


I think this supports my theory that it was a combination UN/Supreme Court, like the Round Table of King Arthur's myth, the point of which was to resolve disputes and avoid Balkan-type feuds, leading to the uniting of England as one country (with Wales and Scotland in amicable partnership).
barakn
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 20 2008, 09:33 PM)

It was carved from a single block of granite, and as it was, it was larger than the opening to the King's Chamber.

If they could've carved it longer, it'd look more like a sarcophagus, too, as it was too short for an average sized person to fit into without bending his knees (no mummies of pharaohs were ever before seen buried bow-legged).

I don't really agree that a larger firebox would've made it more efficient, the five slabs above the firebox were there to capture and store the heat. If they needed more heat, they could easily have just let the fire burn longer, same amount of wood, same amount of heat released, just takes longer to "charge" the heat-exchanger (the five granite slabs above the firebox). Also, if you made the firebox bigger, you'd have to make the slabs above them bigger, so you'd need more fire and a bigger King's Chamber...

Engineering is a matter of picking the right set of compromises as the set-point for the design.

There's no evidence of fires. Did an army of Egyptians scrub the creosote out of every nook and cranny? You've previously stated that you think the black substance found in one of the chambers was related to fires, which flies directly in the face of statements that it was derived from insects.

Also, I'd like to know where you think the Pharaohs from the Old Kingdom were buried. We know where they were buried both before and after the pyramid age. If they weren't put in the pyramids and there are no known tombs for them elsewhere, what happened to them?
wcelliott
QUOTE
There's no evidence of fires.


Actually, someone earlier pointed out that building a fire in a granite firebox would tend to make the firebox crack. It *is* cracked.

The statement about the black matter likely coming from insects was unsupported by analysis. If they analyzed the black matter and found it to be from insects, then that'd be evidence that insects died in an abandoned structure. Hardly unique. But if the black matter was ash from a hardwood fire, then that would *support* (not prove) my "firebox" hypothesis.

Did the tomb robbers steal *all* the inscribed plaster from *every* nook and cranny in the Pyramid? (Except the couple of hand-schmeared plaster that sealed the cracks in the granite where it didn't fit water-tight?)

Where were they buried? I don't know. I'm an engineer, not an archeologist. From an engineer's perspective, the structures that Egyptologists claim are "ceremonial" or "ornamental" or "religious" look more functional to me.

Anybody else here know how they hoisted those 40-ton stones into place? (Maybe they got steroids from alien visitors...)
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