QUOTE (Bitman+Apr 13 2006, 08:51 PM)
I'm unconvinced buddy, Best of luck for eternity
Neither am I. Too bad you have to waste a lifetime.
Neither am I. Too bad you have to waste a lifetime.
QUOTE
1000$ or else you will land in Hell.
It's unfortunate that many people give many times that...
Well to each their own, but I sure wish churches were taxed
like any other business.
Science doesn't prove anything, it only proves null hypotheses. just because there is evidence that ice possibly formed, doesn't mean the miracle didn't happen.
i'm not here to convert anyone, i just find it offensive that all this flaming is going on. and i'm not just talking about the atheists and agnostics, the christians on this forum need to shut up too. people made a decision, just give your thoughts on the article, and quit trying to sway people to thinking what you believe.
i'm not here to convert anyone, i just find it offensive that all this flaming is going on. and i'm not just talking about the atheists and agnostics, the christians on this forum need to shut up too. people made a decision, just give your thoughts on the article, and quit trying to sway people to thinking what you believe.
QUOTE (Judge Dredd+Apr 4 2006, 10:38 AM)
Funny Science can make statements like this yet when drug into a court of law OJ runs free, Bush stays in office and we the people get bent over.
I am not some religious bump BUT apart of faith is believing because you want to believe......any scientific papers on that?
What's even funnier is that people can think this is science.
I am not some religious bump BUT apart of faith is believing because you want to believe......any scientific papers on that?
What's even funnier is that people can think this is science.
I think you all have to watch the new BBC documentary "Who wrote the bible?". It is a very non biased look by a Christian on who the bible writers were and how all of these books came together in the paperback book we all read today. I am not denouncing any faith or physicist but you all have to have an open accepting mind to each other. Its like saying you can judge an Islamic man without reading the qua-ran or a hesidic Jew without reading the Torah. I am also not suggesting that these religions are right but what should we be applying from these teachings into our daily lives to create a fruitful society. I am a man of science that is more spiritual than religious but I believe understanding and tolerance will help mold a perfect society that will not use religious doctrine as a history book and more of a tool. Once again its "Who wrote the bible?" a BBC documentary and make "your own" educated opinion without prejudice. Just a thought 
Nof said. "We leave to others the question of whether or not our research explains the biblical account."
The bottom line is, if there was no biblical account of Jesus walking on water (which is a one of a kind historical record) you wouldn't have researched it.
The question I leave to you, Mr. Nof... "Did you decide to refute this out of thin air or is it that you can't see yourself as a created being?" My personal opinion is that you believe its the later. I will agree with you on one thing... To acknowldge that Jesus Christ is the creator of the universe is the most challenging thing on the face of this earth. It means that what ever power and knowldge you have was given to you and never originated in you alone.
Give credit where it is due!
Peace be with you.
The bottom line is, if there was no biblical account of Jesus walking on water (which is a one of a kind historical record) you wouldn't have researched it.
The question I leave to you, Mr. Nof... "Did you decide to refute this out of thin air or is it that you can't see yourself as a created being?" My personal opinion is that you believe its the later. I will agree with you on one thing... To acknowldge that Jesus Christ is the creator of the universe is the most challenging thing on the face of this earth. It means that what ever power and knowldge you have was given to you and never originated in you alone.
Give credit where it is due!
Peace be with you.
Well said, Paul.
this is just the latest and a great shining example of satan wispering his assinine little attacks against bible truths into the itching little ears of his army of ignorant little antichrists. These attacks are relentless, and show us all how many God hating psuedo intellectual nincompoops are out there, with nothing better to do than wait for their satanic masters latest blitherings. Does not the bible say his main job is go out and deceive the whole world, at least those spritually ignorant among us that swallow every little lie he spits into their itchy little eardrums. If Jesus deceived his dicilpes by standing on an iceflow in the middle of a lake while pretending to walk on water,his whole character is called into question. Congratulations satan, not for your ability to lie and make up a new and preposterous angle to a genuine miracle, but for how you have cultivated a vast army of fools, ready to embrace each lie and lend their voice to to the never ending attack on God and his truths. All you little antichrists should bow before your master satan because he,s got you in his corner.
Norm Vancouver B.C.
Norm Vancouver B.C.
Makes sense to me. Ok, so a boat was cruising around in a frozen sea (sea water freezes at a very low temperature if I remember correctly). Sounds like it might be tough to paddle. Ok, so there's freshwater above the sea water. There's a fozen patch floating around. Jesus long jumps out onto the ice from the boat, because apparently no one else was close enough to see the ice, and the ice doesn't rotate or bob. Didn't say that Jesus bobbed or did the logroll on water, he walked. Seems like an ice patch that was formed on the surface (as deep as the freshwater goes, not sure on that) might tend to rotate when a dude steps onto the edge of it unless the ice was BIG. So we've got an iceberg on our hands, but not one big enough for anyone to see. So Peter asks Jesus to call for him. Jesus does and Peter steps out of the boat and does fine, walking on water (apparently Peter doesn't notice he's walking on ice), until his faith waivers and he starts to sink through the ice at which point Jesus grabs his hand and helps him back up. But Jesus' ice didn't sink when Peter's did, must've been two seperate icebergs. They get back on the boat and don't even mention having cold feet. I know my feet would have been pretty chilly after standing on an iceberg in sandals. So we're left with two big warm glaciers of seawater that no one and but Jesus can see even though they aren't far enough from the boat to be able to step onto. I buy it 100%. What's all the fuss about?
It's one thing to believe God (as in Yahweh) is real, it's another to take the Bible literally. Also, these gospels were written by 'word of mouth,' we all know how those stories can be distorted. Of course people are going to add in and take out information if it is not written down. It is like all those ancient myths you hear. Why are they not true? How is it any different? It is not. People will believe anything if it has regaurds to the 'afterlife' and be completely ignorant of how that information came to be and also with reality.
The Florida professor who suggested that Jesus walked on ice is showing the same purblindness as the fundamentalist fanatics denouncing him. He and they accept gospel fairy tales as eyewitness accounts, accurate or misinterpreted, of events from history. In fact the gospel authors simply borrowed fables originally told of Elijah and Elisha and attributed them to Jesus. One of Elijah's feats was crossing a body of water without wetting his feet, by parting the Jordan River. The gospel authors dared not claim that Jesus carved a dry channel through the Sea of Galilee, since too many local residents might have come forward to deny that it had ever happened. So they wrote a parallel in which he crossed the sea by walking on the water -- much harder to disprove.
All of this information can be found in Mythology's Last Gods, pages 199-200.
All of this information can be found in Mythology's Last Gods, pages 199-200.
What I have a hard time deciphering is why people will always believe the worst about things and people and they will have the hardest time believing the best...even if the best is a truth. I wonder how those same people will feel (besides humbled) when they eventually convert to Christianity or Buddhism or some such as the age and become elderly, as so very many do with on coming death. I also wonder why people don't want to open their bleeding closed doors when they stand in their doorways...only allowing themselves a slight peek at otherworldly realities.
Meanwhile some of us have been busy actually visiting otherworldly realities...leaving those poor fools in the dust to wonder if it could be anywhere near truth.
Whatever...while they peek out, suspiciously... I am gone down the road to the miraculous.
Peace.
Meanwhile some of us have been busy actually visiting otherworldly realities...leaving those poor fools in the dust to wonder if it could be anywhere near truth.
Whatever...while they peek out, suspiciously... I am gone down the road to the miraculous.
Peace.
I just read a few more posts...and I just have to say one thing here. Jesus like every other divine presense, that is projected into the Earths atmosphere, is a hologram, and can, manipulate the quantum atmosphere in any way the people can stand to see...it is just that earth beings can't stand to see the miricle or to touch the faith that allows them to see miricles. I have performed miricles myself. And for crying out loud, I am just a man....(well female) I am just homo saphian. Get over yourselves and your petty b.s. trying to convince someone one way or another and dance with the Gods. That is my suggestion. It is a world of fun as well as heart-mending. And we all know that the world...can break our hearts.
I hope you will all explore the fascinating. Instead of fighting about whether it could be or not.
Blessings!
t.k.
I hope you will all explore the fascinating. Instead of fighting about whether it could be or not.
Blessings!
t.k.
It's completely unbelievable that in this day in age we still put our "faith" in fairy tales and mythological stories. I for one believe this man entirely. You try to refute these findings and others like it on the basis of a book written thousands of years ago. Here's a question.....How many other books written that long ago contain factual or accurate info? None, with the exception of scientific observations made by men who constistently challenged the church and its control. Science answers our questions definitely more and more every day, whereas the bible seems to be losing its ground explaining things. More and more as discoveries come about some theologian has to come up with some far fetched reason as to why the bible said what it said or why it didn't account for dinasaurs. Occam's razor: The simplest or most direct explanation is usually the correct one. They couldn't dig up bones and had no knowledge of dinasaurs, therefore couldn't make up a reason for their existence in yet another tale of mythology, the bible. Why is it that we believe in chrisitianity or judaism more than greek or roman gods. Because the popularity of one died out.....or maybe it is because religions such as christianity use scare tactics to threaten its people? Be good, and follow what god says or you go to HELL! 2000 years ago where fanatical ideas and theories were real to a people who didn't understand the realities of the physical world, people believed virtually anything except that which attempted to explain things without a mythical deity. Get a clue. Start reading science. Put it together for yourself. Stop being led around by a book proven wrong at so many corners. Without the book, what do you have? Years of blind belief, and the thought of having wasted your lives scares most. Or maybe even the thought that there is simply nothing after death. Grow up, and stop believing in fairy tales, no matter how long they have been around.
I don't mind that people believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else. If it brings them peace and happiness, more power to them. A study found that people who lived religious lives lived a few years longer than non believers and had a better quality of life. Studies also find that people who hold grudges are not as happy and suffer more ailments that people who live by the 'forgive and forget" principle.
Wasn’t Christmas more enjoyable when you believed in Santa Clause? Isn’t Christmas more fun for you when your kids believe in Santa Clause? Belief is not a bad thing, again, unless you are a fanatic and want to kill others over your ideas (abortion doctor killers, fanatic Muslims, etc) Ask yourself, if you were to genetically engineer life on a planet similar to ours, would you give the people you created religion to make them “mind somebody”? I would. Would you create everyone perfect, free of disease and handicap, with high intelligence? I wouldn’t. We need people who are content with being servers. A world of 100% geniuses wouldn’t work very well, would it. Who here would be content with picking fruit, selling crack, or clean dishes for a living? (just kidding) I guess what I’m saying is that I have no problem with believers in “fairy tales” and wouldn’t want them to change! But for Christs sake, live and let live!
Wasn’t Christmas more enjoyable when you believed in Santa Clause? Isn’t Christmas more fun for you when your kids believe in Santa Clause? Belief is not a bad thing, again, unless you are a fanatic and want to kill others over your ideas (abortion doctor killers, fanatic Muslims, etc) Ask yourself, if you were to genetically engineer life on a planet similar to ours, would you give the people you created religion to make them “mind somebody”? I would. Would you create everyone perfect, free of disease and handicap, with high intelligence? I wouldn’t. We need people who are content with being servers. A world of 100% geniuses wouldn’t work very well, would it. Who here would be content with picking fruit, selling crack, or clean dishes for a living? (just kidding) I guess what I’m saying is that I have no problem with believers in “fairy tales” and wouldn’t want them to change! But for Christs sake, live and let live!
Alot of you look to the bible and try to say what is real and how stuff happened and everything that has happened isn't always explained because we would never understand. God wanted us to believe in him not the things he did. You nonbelievers don't believe in God because u never found him. Once u really found him and see what he can do for you life you will understand. Look at the people who are religious who have been healed by God and the next time doctors see them and cant believe their eyes. You explain that to a person who has be healed by God not everything has answers. So you nonbelievers believe what you want I'm not here to change mind you have the right to believe or not believe so if you chose not to its your choice.
OK did you ever think of how Jesus walked on the same ice the disciple did but the disciple fell in and Jesus didnt? And you do realize this happened after the resurection so if the guy was raised from the dead after 3 days in a tomb and He was dead because they stabbed Him to make sure WHY THE HECK CANT YOU BELIEVE HE CAN WALK ON WATER IF HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD? dont you understand He beat death so He can beat the elements of nature? I'll pray for you to realize the truth.
FAITH, THAT IS WHAT THE STORIES IN THE BIBLE REQUIRE, YOU EITHER HAVE IT OR YOU DON'T. SCIENTISTS DON'T NORMALLY HAVE FAITH, THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD, OR JESUS, OR EVEN CREATION. I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY HAVE NOT FAITH, HOW COULD YOU LOOK AROUND THIS WORLD AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, HOW COULD ALL THIS DIVERSITY BE WITHOUT A CREATOR?
QUOTE
FAITH, THAT IS WHAT THE STORIES IN THE BIBLE REQUIRE, YOU EITHER HAVE IT OR YOU DON'T.
You are absolutely right. Also, Faith is what is needed for belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monsters, Unicorns and Santa Claus.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| FAITH, THAT IS WHAT THE STORIES IN THE BIBLE REQUIRE, YOU EITHER HAVE IT OR YOU DON'T. |
You are absolutely right. Also, Faith is what is needed for belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monsters, Unicorns and Santa Claus.
HOW COULD YOU LOOK AROUND THIS WORLD AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, HOW COULD ALL THIS DIVERSITY BE WITHOUT A CREATOR?
Anything in this world can be explained by saying "God did it". However, some of us need tangible evidence
Hi there
..or take the world of politics. People of various ideological backgrounds have committed murder of innocents supposedly justified by their own cause...
..be it survival of own regime (Pinochet and other Latin American, Saddam who incidentally was a Baathist meaning secular, arab nationalist, Chinese communists, etc.)
..or establishment of own independent state/integration of provinde into own state (think Basque separatists or Northern Ireland)
..or even securing resources for the own consumpton even if they happen to be situated in a land inhabited by another people and far away from 'home' (think Iraq war).
Also, in any religion and ideology (democracy, communism, liberalism, etc.) you will find adherents whose practice of it diverges from its principle, on 'small' points or 'big' ones.
Examples include the past prohibition to vote for blacks, women and males from the working class in so-called democracies, the 'glass ceiling' for women in the wold of work and lower pay for women for the same job despite the stated equal treatment of the sexes.
It takes detachment to acknowledge that this divergence between principle and practice is the source at least of some of the behaviour we see today in the world.
greetings,
Marianne
QUOTE
Belief is not a bad thing, again, unless you are a fanatic and want to kill others over your ideas (abortion doctor killers, fanatic Muslims, etc)
..or take the world of politics. People of various ideological backgrounds have committed murder of innocents supposedly justified by their own cause...
..be it survival of own regime (Pinochet and other Latin American, Saddam who incidentally was a Baathist meaning secular, arab nationalist, Chinese communists, etc.)
..or establishment of own independent state/integration of provinde into own state (think Basque separatists or Northern Ireland)
..or even securing resources for the own consumpton even if they happen to be situated in a land inhabited by another people and far away from 'home' (think Iraq war).
Also, in any religion and ideology (democracy, communism, liberalism, etc.) you will find adherents whose practice of it diverges from its principle, on 'small' points or 'big' ones.
Examples include the past prohibition to vote for blacks, women and males from the working class in so-called democracies, the 'glass ceiling' for women in the wold of work and lower pay for women for the same job despite the stated equal treatment of the sexes.
It takes detachment to acknowledge that this divergence between principle and practice is the source at least of some of the behaviour we see today in the world.
greetings,
Marianne
Dear thetruth,
First of all, let's acknowledge that none of us has experienced death, and none of those that have, came back to tell us about it.
The question of Paradise/Hell is not one of morality, neither can it be reduced to one of 'punishment' for unbelief. It is much wider and profound, since it has to do with the nature of reality/unreality.
Also, "And it is Allah who brought you forth form your mothers' wombs knowing nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that you might give thanks" (Q.16.78). God gave Adam and his descendants the gift of intelligence, asking in return, not for blind praise, but for lucid and joyful understanding of the nature of all things and their source (God).
Let's also acknowledge, that while the relationship between religion (Christianity in the western wold of old) and science has been one of conflict, thus in my opinion explaining this so often antagonistic interaction, it doesn't follow that this is a universal conflict...
The experience at least of the Islamic world, especially in the Middle Ages, has been one of peacefull interaction, with the Quran also encouraging Muslims to engage in the study of their surroundings, the natural world both on this earh and the universe, so as to convince ourselves and gain a fuller appreciation and understanding of the truth and beauty contained within the Quran.
God is never absent and never inactive.
Besides, it is only in these so-called 'modern' times of ours, that mankind (or parts of it) perceives of itself as entirely independent of God, denying any possibilty of His existence and of our own sense-perception and reasoning, valid in practical applications, possibly not being adequate for the understanding of Ultimate Reality. Many civilisations of the past, while believing in God (or several gods, as the case may be) have undertaken scientific 'R&D'.
Because muslims, christians and jews all worship the same One God (as the Quran tells us. Al-Lah meaning 'The God'.) and because in all religions God is the Creator and Sustainor of this world and everything within it (laws of nature, universe, time, matter, living beings, stars, etc.), I personally think that the conflict between Christians and Science is a superficial one.
First of all, let's acknowledge that none of us has experienced death, and none of those that have, came back to tell us about it.
The question of Paradise/Hell is not one of morality, neither can it be reduced to one of 'punishment' for unbelief. It is much wider and profound, since it has to do with the nature of reality/unreality.
Also, "And it is Allah who brought you forth form your mothers' wombs knowing nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that you might give thanks" (Q.16.78). God gave Adam and his descendants the gift of intelligence, asking in return, not for blind praise, but for lucid and joyful understanding of the nature of all things and their source (God).
Let's also acknowledge, that while the relationship between religion (Christianity in the western wold of old) and science has been one of conflict, thus in my opinion explaining this so often antagonistic interaction, it doesn't follow that this is a universal conflict...
The experience at least of the Islamic world, especially in the Middle Ages, has been one of peacefull interaction, with the Quran also encouraging Muslims to engage in the study of their surroundings, the natural world both on this earh and the universe, so as to convince ourselves and gain a fuller appreciation and understanding of the truth and beauty contained within the Quran.
God is never absent and never inactive.
Besides, it is only in these so-called 'modern' times of ours, that mankind (or parts of it) perceives of itself as entirely independent of God, denying any possibilty of His existence and of our own sense-perception and reasoning, valid in practical applications, possibly not being adequate for the understanding of Ultimate Reality. Many civilisations of the past, while believing in God (or several gods, as the case may be) have undertaken scientific 'R&D'.
Because muslims, christians and jews all worship the same One God (as the Quran tells us. Al-Lah meaning 'The God'.) and because in all religions God is the Creator and Sustainor of this world and everything within it (laws of nature, universe, time, matter, living beings, stars, etc.), I personally think that the conflict between Christians and Science is a superficial one.
ice? ok. which means that (1) jesus had key timing to catch a piece of ice floating by, (2) whoever sank in the "icy" waters must have been freezing after, to which there is no mention, (3) the storm that blew in while this happened must have brought snow with it, (4) Jesus must have had amazing traction and balance to pull someone up standing on a slab of ice thick and buoyant enough to support two people.
in other words, this is an assinine claim. Jesus IS the real deal.
what a stupid claim by these scientists.
in other words, this is an assinine claim. Jesus IS the real deal.
what a stupid claim by these scientists.
um..no. We do not all worship the same God. "Many will come bearing My Name"
hello.
hello.
What a waist of time! And were is the study into the actual existence if the man.
Ar, yes thats right! He didn't ever exist! All story's in the bible are allegorical tales
of popular folklore of the time woven into a larger narrative.
PS. Faith like hope is for those who lack the courage to take responsibility.
Ar, yes thats right! He didn't ever exist! All story's in the bible are allegorical tales
of popular folklore of the time woven into a larger narrative.
PS. Faith like hope is for those who lack the courage to take responsibility.
lol, funny how people can believe a whole sea parting, but not ice flows being apparent every few thousand years Tbh it doesnt really matter anyways cause the bible is made up anyways.
Tbh it doesnt really matter anyways cause the bible is made up anyways.
QUOTE (Jack+May 12 2006, 04:30 AM)
It's one thing to believe God (as in Yahweh) is real, it's another to take the Bible literally. Also, these gospels were written by 'word of mouth,' we all know how those stories can be distorted. Of course people are going to add in and take out information if it is not written down. It is like all those ancient myths you hear. Why are they not true? How is it any different? It is not. People will believe anything if it has regaurds to the 'afterlife' and be completely ignorant of how that information came to be and also with reality.
qft, i agree. Most of u didnt even read this article correctly, it even says they arent presenting this study as fact that Jesus didnt walk on water so idk why u r all so crazy. Believe what you want, if you think some random guy had crazy powers then do so. But dont belittle urself by trying to attack the researchers and science in general for what they are saying. Atleast when they publish things, they usually have fact to back it up :rolleyes. I had a conversation like this with a kid at my school recently, and he wouldnt listen to any reason whatsoever. He said, his beliefs (christian) were right and all other religions were just overgrown lies. Sounds kind of arrogant to me, and if you feel you have to try to defend your own religion against someones pitty words, then most likely you are not 100% believing in it urself, as when u respond, u r trying to reassure ureslf more then anything. Just take that into consideration, and don't try to make up faulty answers for things science explains, referencing the bible literally proves nothing if you think about it. Anyways my speech is done, cyea and have fun.
P.S. Anyone who disputes the wonders of science here is a hyporcryt since you are responding via a computer developed through science and research, not a god.
qft, i agree. Most of u didnt even read this article correctly, it even says they arent presenting this study as fact that Jesus didnt walk on water so idk why u r all so crazy. Believe what you want, if you think some random guy had crazy powers then do so. But dont belittle urself by trying to attack the researchers and science in general for what they are saying. Atleast when they publish things, they usually have fact to back it up :rolleyes. I had a conversation like this with a kid at my school recently, and he wouldnt listen to any reason whatsoever. He said, his beliefs (christian) were right and all other religions were just overgrown lies.
Sounds kind of arrogant to me, and if you feel you have to try to defend your own religion against someones pitty words, then most likely you are not 100% believing in it urself, as when u respond, u r trying to reassure ureslf more then anything. Just take that into consideration, and don't try to make up faulty answers for things science explains, referencing the bible literally proves nothing if you think about it. Anyways my speech is done, cyea and have fun.P.S. Anyone who disputes the wonders of science here is a hyporcryt since you are responding via a computer developed through science and research, not a god.
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