Could this work?
1.) Invent a tool that can make a precise map of your brain and everything in it (like a 3-d xray machine that can map out the location of every neuron and all their connections and whatever else is in there - or, if it is necessary to the function of the brain, every particle of matter)
2.) Program each piece (its relative location and properties) into a computer simulation
3.) Run the brain in the computer simulation, by simulating all its necessary inputs
At this point, would you have a simulated, thinking you?
If you speed up the rate at which the simulated brain receives its simulated inputs (and adjust the properties of the pieces so that they do not wear), would you then have a brain that could think infinitely fast (as long as you keep increasing the speed of the simulation)?
*This is all assuming you have an infinite amount of processing power (like say a worldwide cloud computing network that is constantly being upgraded)
Thank you for your input,
arpc_01
QUOTE
The human brain has a huge number of synapses. Each of the 10^11 (one hundred billion) neurons has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons. It has been estimated that the brain of a three-year-old child has about 10^15 synapses (1 quadrillion). This number declines with age, stabilizing by adulthood. Estimates vary for an adult, ranging from 10^14 to 5 x 10^14 synapses (100 to 500 trillion).
Neuron
It's possible, but not with today's technology.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Oct 22 2009, 07:24 PM)
Neuron
It's possible, but not with today's technology.
Is the problem the computing power, the brain-mapping tool, or both?
By when do you think it would be possible? 10, 100, 1000 years?
Could it be done by improving on existing technologies (like making a better xray machine and a faster computer), or would we need completely new technologies?
My understanding of the brain and consciousness is limited, but if you could do this would you basically have a person that could think so fast that it could process all data available to humans, and then use it to think up a solution to every solvable problem?
So you could use it to invent new technologies to solve all of our problems, come up with theories about how the universe works that are to complex for a regular person to comprehend in their limited lifespan, and cool stuff like that...
It's possible, but not with today's technology.
Is the problem the computing power, the brain-mapping tool, or both?
By when do you think it would be possible? 10, 100, 1000 years?
Could it be done by improving on existing technologies (like making a better xray machine and a faster computer), or would we need completely new technologies?
My understanding of the brain and consciousness is limited, but if you could do this would you basically have a person that could think so fast that it could process all data available to humans, and then use it to think up a solution to every solvable problem?
So you could use it to invent new technologies to solve all of our problems, come up with theories about how the universe works that are to complex for a regular person to comprehend in their limited lifespan, and cool stuff like that...
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 22 2009, 03:45 PM)
Is the problem the computing power, the brain-mapping tool, or both?
By when do you think it would be possible? 10, 100, 1000 years?
Could it be done by improving on existing technologies (like making a better xray machine and a faster computer), or would we need completely new technologies?
My understanding of the brain and consciousness is limited, but if you could do this would you basically have a person that could think so fast that it could process all data available to humans, and then use it to think up a solution to every solvable problem?
So you could use it to invent new technologies to solve all of our problems, come up with theories about how the universe works that are to complex for a regular person to comprehend in their limited lifespan, and cool stuff like that...
A really fast computer could do it, but only through virtualization, which is inherently slower. I would recommend simulating the actual neurons with nano-machines. If you engineer them to behave like neurons, then I believe we can simulate brain-like activity. Part of the problem with artificial intelligence is the way we define intelligence, a.k.a. human intelligence. Present day computers do extremely quick calculations, but they don't have any inherently "human" traits, like will, emotions, self-awareness, etc. It is my belief that a learning machine could pick up these traits if exposed to humans for long enough.
By when do you think it would be possible? 10, 100, 1000 years?
Could it be done by improving on existing technologies (like making a better xray machine and a faster computer), or would we need completely new technologies?
My understanding of the brain and consciousness is limited, but if you could do this would you basically have a person that could think so fast that it could process all data available to humans, and then use it to think up a solution to every solvable problem?
So you could use it to invent new technologies to solve all of our problems, come up with theories about how the universe works that are to complex for a regular person to comprehend in their limited lifespan, and cool stuff like that...
A really fast computer could do it, but only through virtualization, which is inherently slower. I would recommend simulating the actual neurons with nano-machines. If you engineer them to behave like neurons, then I believe we can simulate brain-like activity. Part of the problem with artificial intelligence is the way we define intelligence, a.k.a. human intelligence. Present day computers do extremely quick calculations, but they don't have any inherently "human" traits, like will, emotions, self-awareness, etc. It is my belief that a learning machine could pick up these traits if exposed to humans for long enough.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Oct 22 2009, 07:49 PM)
A really fast computer could do it, but only through virtualization, which is inherently slower. I would recommend simulating the actual neurons with nano-machines. If you engineer them to behave like neurons, then I believe we can simulate brain-like activity. Part of the problem with artificial intelligence is the way we define intelligence, a.k.a. human intelligence. Present day computers do extremely quick calculations, but they don't have any inherently "human" traits, like will, emotions, self-awareness, etc. It is my belief that a learning machine could pick up these traits if exposed to humans for long enough.
True, it would be like running a virtual OS. Painfully slow!
I have thought about this problem of defining intelligence and such, which is why i suggested this be modeled directly from an existing intelligence - someone's already developed brain - so it wouldn't have to learn from us.
If you were to use one-hundred billion desktop PC's to each act as a nueron, would that achieve the same affect as making neurons out of nanomachines?
I am just thinking this because we already have the means to produce desktop pcs, but not to produce nanomachines as complex as a neuron (or do we?), and I am trying to find the fastest way to make such a consciousness feasible.
True, it would be like running a virtual OS. Painfully slow!
I have thought about this problem of defining intelligence and such, which is why i suggested this be modeled directly from an existing intelligence - someone's already developed brain - so it wouldn't have to learn from us.
If you were to use one-hundred billion desktop PC's to each act as a nueron, would that achieve the same affect as making neurons out of nanomachines?
I am just thinking this because we already have the means to produce desktop pcs, but not to produce nanomachines as complex as a neuron (or do we?), and I am trying to find the fastest way to make such a consciousness feasible.
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 22 2009, 04:12 PM)
True, it would be like running a virtual OS. Painfully slow!
I have thought about this problem of defining intelligence and such, which is why i suggested this be modeled directly from an existing intelligence - someone's already developed brain - so it wouldn't have to learn from us.
If you were to use one-hundred billion desktop PC's to each act as a nueron, would that achieve the same affect as making neurons out of nanomachines?
I am just thinking this because we already have the means to produce desktop pcs, but not to produce nanomachines as complex as a neuron (or do we?), and I am trying to find the fastest way to make such a consciousness feasible.
In my understanding, neurons are relatively simple, but their complexity arises from the connections that they make. PC's may be a little overpowered for that kind of thing.
I have thought about this problem of defining intelligence and such, which is why i suggested this be modeled directly from an existing intelligence - someone's already developed brain - so it wouldn't have to learn from us.
If you were to use one-hundred billion desktop PC's to each act as a nueron, would that achieve the same affect as making neurons out of nanomachines?
I am just thinking this because we already have the means to produce desktop pcs, but not to produce nanomachines as complex as a neuron (or do we?), and I am trying to find the fastest way to make such a consciousness feasible.
In my understanding, neurons are relatively simple, but their complexity arises from the connections that they make. PC's may be a little overpowered for that kind of thing.
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 22 2009, 07:19 PM)
Could this work?
1.) Invent a tool that can make a precise map of your brain and everything in it (like a 3-d xray machine that can map out the location of every neuron and all their connections and whatever else is in there - or, if it is necessary to the function of the brain, every particle of matter)
2.) Program each piece (its relative location and properties) into a computer simulation
3.) Run the brain in the computer simulation, by simulating all its necessary inputs
At this point, would you have a simulated, thinking you?
If you speed up the rate at which the simulated brain receives its simulated inputs (and adjust the properties of the pieces so that they do not wear), would you then have a brain that could think infinitely fast (as long as you keep increasing the speed of the simulation)?
*This is all assuming you have an infinite amount of processing power (like say a worldwide cloud computing network that is constantly being upgraded)
Thank you for your input,
arpc_01
IMHO, All you would create is a brain in a jar. My feeling is that consciousness is a whole body 3D experience. Of course the brain is hugely important but isn't much cop without an extensive sensor array to feed in real information for it to process ie; a body. The body is the extension of the brain.
1.) Invent a tool that can make a precise map of your brain and everything in it (like a 3-d xray machine that can map out the location of every neuron and all their connections and whatever else is in there - or, if it is necessary to the function of the brain, every particle of matter)
2.) Program each piece (its relative location and properties) into a computer simulation
3.) Run the brain in the computer simulation, by simulating all its necessary inputs
At this point, would you have a simulated, thinking you?
If you speed up the rate at which the simulated brain receives its simulated inputs (and adjust the properties of the pieces so that they do not wear), would you then have a brain that could think infinitely fast (as long as you keep increasing the speed of the simulation)?
*This is all assuming you have an infinite amount of processing power (like say a worldwide cloud computing network that is constantly being upgraded)
Thank you for your input,
arpc_01
IMHO, All you would create is a brain in a jar. My feeling is that consciousness is a whole body 3D experience. Of course the brain is hugely important but isn't much cop without an extensive sensor array to feed in real information for it to process ie; a body. The body is the extension of the brain.
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Oct 22 2009, 10:13 PM)
IMHO, All you would create is a brain in a jar. My feeling is that consciousness is a whole body 3D experience. Of course the brain is hugely important but isn't much cop without an extensive sensor array to feed in real information for it to process ie; a body. The body is the extension of the brain.
Yes, the body is an important part of the consciousness, but by simulating the inputs to the brain that this body would generate (like your senses and the signals your nerves give out and such), it is like we are simulating the body.
Yes, the body is an important part of the consciousness, but by simulating the inputs to the brain that this body would generate (like your senses and the signals your nerves give out and such), it is like we are simulating the body.
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 22 2009, 10:31 PM)
Yes, the body is an important part of the consciousness, but by simulating the inputs to the brain that this body would generate (like your senses and the signals your nerves give out and such), it is like we are simulating the body.
I would argue that the body is the most essential part of consciousness. The brain is a part of the body btw
As a matter of interest, other than for the hell of it, what would the benefits of this kind of simulation be? Consciousness is not a rare commodity on earth.
I would argue that the body is the most essential part of consciousness. The brain is a part of the body btw
As a matter of interest, other than for the hell of it, what would the benefits of this kind of simulation be? Consciousness is not a rare commodity on earth.
Some interesting issues raised, if enough powerfull pc's could be connected together in the future, who knows?
I have the idea that nerve-tissue forms through development. So it's not like your brain is fixed hardware and the programming is software. So I don't know if you could simulate this maleable-tissue hardware approach to processor-development using silicon, ceramics, metals, in a fixed hardware configuration.
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Oct 24 2009, 08:13 AM)
I would argue that the body is the most essential part of consciousness. The brain is a part of the body btw
If it is that essential, then we can just simulate a whole human - mind + body - and get the desired result.
As a matter of interest, other than for the hell of it, what would the benefits of this kind of simulation be? Consciousness is not a rare commodity on earth.
The benefits would be that you would now have a consciousness that is not limited (like all known counsciousnesses) by the rules of physical reality.
i.e. Time: It would be immortal, and be able to operate at speeds infintely faster than an existing counsciousness by manipulating the time within its simulated reality.
As a result, if you had enough processing power, you could speed up the simulation so that it is going potentially infinitely faster than real life.
i.e. You speed up the simulation by 1 million times real-life speed, so that in the time it takes you to experience 1 second, the simulated you has experienced 1 million seconds.
Keep the simulation running for 1 year, and the simulated you will have just experienced 1 million years.
Imagine what you could do with 1 million years? You could absorb all human knowledge - read every book, learn every skill etc. You could think of ideas so complex that it would take lifetimes for a human to understand.
You could ask the simulated you how to solve a problem - like say how to cure a disease, or how to end poverty in the most economically feasible way - and if there is a solution to the problem, it will find it.
The benefits would be that you would now have a consciousness that is not limited (like all known counsciousnesses) by the rules of physical reality.
i.e. Time: It would be immortal, and be able to operate at speeds infintely faster than an existing counsciousness by manipulating the time within its simulated reality.
As a result, if you had enough processing power, you could speed up the simulation so that it is going potentially infinitely faster than real life.
i.e. You speed up the simulation by 1 million times real-life speed, so that in the time it takes you to experience 1 second, the simulated you has experienced 1 million seconds.
Keep the simulation running for 1 year, and the simulated you will have just experienced 1 million years.
Imagine what you could do with 1 million years? You could absorb all human knowledge - read every book, learn every skill etc. You could think of ideas so complex that it would take lifetimes for a human to understand.
You could ask the simulated you how to solve a problem - like say how to cure a disease, or how to end poverty in the most economically feasible way - and if there is a solution to the problem, it will find it.
I have the idea that nerve-tissue forms through development. So it's not like your brain is fixed hardware and the programming is software. So I don't know if you could simulate this maleable-tissue hardware approach to processor-development using silicon, ceramics, metals, in a fixed hardware configuration.
Yes, they do form over time, and change as you learn stuff. But that is irrelevent; this is a simulation. It is not a computer acting as a neuron, but a computer simulating an actual neuron + all of it's properties (i.e. its ability to change). What the computer is made of doesn't make a difference in the simulation.
If it is that essential, then we can just simulate a whole human - mind + body - and get the desired result.
QUOTE
As a matter of interest, other than for the hell of it, what would the benefits of this kind of simulation be? Consciousness is not a rare commodity on earth.
The benefits would be that you would now have a consciousness that is not limited (like all known counsciousnesses) by the rules of physical reality.
i.e. Time: It would be immortal, and be able to operate at speeds infintely faster than an existing counsciousness by manipulating the time within its simulated reality.
As a result, if you had enough processing power, you could speed up the simulation so that it is going potentially infinitely faster than real life.
i.e. You speed up the simulation by 1 million times real-life speed, so that in the time it takes you to experience 1 second, the simulated you has experienced 1 million seconds.
Keep the simulation running for 1 year, and the simulated you will have just experienced 1 million years.
Imagine what you could do with 1 million years? You could absorb all human knowledge - read every book, learn every skill etc. You could think of ideas so complex that it would take lifetimes for a human to understand.
You could ask the simulated you how to solve a problem - like say how to cure a disease, or how to end poverty in the most economically feasible way - and if there is a solution to the problem, it will find it.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
As a matter of interest, other than for the hell of it, what would the benefits of this kind of simulation be? Consciousness is not a rare commodity on earth. |
The benefits would be that you would now have a consciousness that is not limited (like all known counsciousnesses) by the rules of physical reality.
i.e. Time: It would be immortal, and be able to operate at speeds infintely faster than an existing counsciousness by manipulating the time within its simulated reality.
As a result, if you had enough processing power, you could speed up the simulation so that it is going potentially infinitely faster than real life.
i.e. You speed up the simulation by 1 million times real-life speed, so that in the time it takes you to experience 1 second, the simulated you has experienced 1 million seconds.
Keep the simulation running for 1 year, and the simulated you will have just experienced 1 million years.
Imagine what you could do with 1 million years? You could absorb all human knowledge - read every book, learn every skill etc. You could think of ideas so complex that it would take lifetimes for a human to understand.
You could ask the simulated you how to solve a problem - like say how to cure a disease, or how to end poverty in the most economically feasible way - and if there is a solution to the problem, it will find it.
I have the idea that nerve-tissue forms through development. So it's not like your brain is fixed hardware and the programming is software. So I don't know if you could simulate this maleable-tissue hardware approach to processor-development using silicon, ceramics, metals, in a fixed hardware configuration.
Yes, they do form over time, and change as you learn stuff. But that is irrelevent; this is a simulation. It is not a computer acting as a neuron, but a computer simulating an actual neuron + all of it's properties (i.e. its ability to change). What the computer is made of doesn't make a difference in the simulation.
QUOTE (arpc_01+Oct 25 2009, 09:42 PM)
Imagine what you could do with 1 million years? You could absorb all human knowledge - read every book, learn every skill etc. You could think of ideas so complex that it would take lifetimes for a human to understand.
You could ask the simulated you how to solve a problem - like say how to cure a disease, or how to end poverty in the most economically feasible way - and if there is a solution to the problem, it will find it.
What if the simulation decided that it was superior to you because it had more experience and knowledge than you. Wouldn't it want to be the boss then and have you serve it? But what use would it have for you if it was so much more advanced and versatile than you? Maybe it would want to keep you around as a pet. Or maybe it would want to use you as an embodied version of itself to do things it could do if it had a body. If it knew all you most intimate sensitivities, it might use these to manipulate you into submitting to its will. You could become a slave to your own uberreplicant!
You could ask the simulated you how to solve a problem - like say how to cure a disease, or how to end poverty in the most economically feasible way - and if there is a solution to the problem, it will find it.
What if the simulation decided that it was superior to you because it had more experience and knowledge than you. Wouldn't it want to be the boss then and have you serve it? But what use would it have for you if it was so much more advanced and versatile than you? Maybe it would want to keep you around as a pet. Or maybe it would want to use you as an embodied version of itself to do things it could do if it had a body. If it knew all you most intimate sensitivities, it might use these to manipulate you into submitting to its will. You could become a slave to your own uberreplicant!
QUOTE (light in the tunnel+Oct 25 2009, 09:49 PM)
What if the simulation decided that it was superior to you because it had more experience and knowledge than you. Wouldn't it want to be the boss then and have you serve it? But what use would it have for you if it was so much more advanced and versatile than you? Maybe it would want to keep you around as a pet. Or maybe it would want to use you as an embodied version of itself to do things it could do if it had a body. If it knew all you most intimate sensitivities, it might use these to manipulate you into submitting to its will. You could become a slave to your own uberreplicant!
First of all, this is not an artificial intelligence. This is a consciousness based on YOU. It is you inside of a simulation.
Would you want to be an ***? Or would you want to help people? Furthermore, what would be the point of selfishness to something so intelligent? Money? Power? These things would be meaningless to it.
But that is irrelevant; this is not a robot. It does not have the means to do anything unless you let it. And if it really wanted to hurt you - say if it concluded that the universe would be better off without humans - would that be such a bad idea? Personally, I would trust the simulated me's judgment over my own.
First of all, this is not an artificial intelligence. This is a consciousness based on YOU. It is you inside of a simulation.
Would you want to be an ***? Or would you want to help people? Furthermore, what would be the point of selfishness to something so intelligent? Money? Power? These things would be meaningless to it.
But that is irrelevant; this is not a robot. It does not have the means to do anything unless you let it. And if it really wanted to hurt you - say if it concluded that the universe would be better off without humans - would that be such a bad idea? Personally, I would trust the simulated me's judgment over my own.
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