Man, just determined to be wrong all the time, A. Your post of Apr 16 2005, 12:49 AM contains at least three "urban legends" which are false but heaviliy promoted for a variety of obscure reasons.
our most advanced methods of doing so are not economical to use the resultant H2 as a fuel.
iii) wrong, eg. the huge BOC plant built in Toledo's output is already entirely "used as fuel". Their only mistake is spending tons of money to then attach the hydrogen molecules to fossil carbons to make gasoline. Dumb.
Perhaps you should call Praxair in Texas, who will happily come to your site and install / operate a coal-to-liquid-hydrogen plant on above terms. Or how about BOC?
"BOC has announced plans to build a massive hydrogen and utilities complex in Toledo, Ohio, to serve both the BP and Sunoco refineries nearby. The complex will dwarf both of the plants announced recently by Air Products, with a capacity of more than 120 million standard cubic feet per day. BOC said it plans to invest more than $100 million in the plant. "
This plant is cheaper per tpd than the Praxair basis plant I used in above calculations.
Course that wouldn't fit with your predetermined position against anything anybody thinks is beneficial to the environment or world stability, would it? Voted republican lately?
Lengould,
Surely you jest.
Clearly the post was in response to the use of H2 as a MOBILE fuel source.
The discussion was about cars and use of liq H2.
You bring up a friggin refinery!
To claim the H2 from the BOC plant is used as "fuel" is silly. as you point out its used to MAKE fuel.
Its not dumb either, I bet Sonoco and BOC and Linde are making a decent profit as the feedstock for the H2 production comes from the waste gases from the refinery (which is why the BOC plant is on the refinery site)
and it produces more H2 then the plant could possibly use so the rest goes into their H2 pipeline to be sold to other users.
Efficient I'd say.
Oh, by the way, the BOC plant doesn't use coal.
Couldn't find anything specific on the Praxair plants, but if they have got one that gets H2 out of coal cheaper then deriving H2 from Natural Gas, then they are a decade or more ahead of the DOE's plan to get economical H2 from Coal. Funny thing though, they are a partner with the DOE FutureGen program that is specifically targeted towards resolving the MANY outstanding issues that the DOE, at least, thinks need to be resolved before this is a reality.
Those dummies.
Why don't you email the DOE, they might send you a huge finders fee, since they are planning on spending over 1 billion to make the above Coal to H2 ann economic reality, and you've already found someone who can do it today.
Yahoo.
But of course if you go to Praxair's site they have this to say:
Praxair's on-site system designs are based on a full range of technologies, including steam methane reforming, partial oxidation gasification and autothermal reforming. To produce hydrogen or synthesis gas, these units react natural gas or hydrocarbons.
Now of course coal is a hydrocarbon, but clearly they have put natural gas/methane at the head of the list.
And I guess others suffer from the same "urban legend" that I do:
Or, maybe the price of Natural gas has gone up so high that coal now makes more economic sense then NG. I don't track the markets, but IF this is the case it is a VERY RECENT change. And IF this is the case, it iss not that H2 from COAL has become suddenly affordable, only that H2 from CH4 has become even less so.
My point, that we can't deliver affordable H2 to the PUMP (Well to Wheels) starting with Coal as the feedstock, is NOT at all affected by fluctuations in NG prices.
Steam Methane Reforming (SMR)
Steam methane reforming (SMR) is the most common and least expensive method of producing hydrogen − almost 48% of the worlds hydrogen is produced from SMR. SMR can be applied to hydrocarbons such as ethane and naphtha, but heavier feedstocks cannot be used because they may
contain impurities and the feed to the reformer must be a vapor. Other processes, such as partial oxidation (POX), are more efficient with higher hydrocarbons. There is a significant economy-of-scale for these systems; capital costs represent 32-48% of large hydrogen plants, but more than 60% of the costs for smaller plants. Hydrogen prices from this process range from $5-8/Gigajoule (GJ).
Coal Gasification
Hydrogen production from coal gasification is a well-established commercial technology, but is only competitive with SMR where oil and/or natural gas are expensive. Three primary types of gasifiers are used: fixed bed, fluidized bed, and entrained flow.
Now to your last digs.
I voted Rep but I don't agree with a lot of the Rep platform. I don't think the Dems know what they believe in though. I think I can deal with someone who does something they believe in a lot better then someone who doesn't seem to know or care.
Most people I talk to think Bush supports Nuclear PPs and that Kerry
is opposed to NPPs, mainly because when Kerry talks about energy
independence he never mentions NPPs and he has been vocal in his opposition
to Yucca Mt., but if you dig on Kerry's Web site, because its not mentioned
in any of the plans he proposes for "energy independence", you will find
this buried in an article on Yucca Mtn: "Kerry and Edwards believe nuclear
power can play an essential role in providing affordable energy while
reducing the risk of climate change;"
Its clear that both candidates support Nuclear power, just that Bush is a
more open about it.
As to Kyoto, while it is clear that Bush is against it, the Kerry doctrine
is handled as deftly as a magician's slight of hand.
From the Kerry Web Site there are all of these statements which either say
or imply that Kerry backs the Kyoto protocol:
Interview with Chris Heinz: "He is not the type to run away from Kyoto"
Interview with Theresa Heinz:
"She is equally dismayed at Bush's public statements, from his pronouncement that the Kyoto Protocol on global warming was "dead on arrival" to his skepticism of scientific evidence on global warming. "As president, you have to have some sophistication in speech, if not in policy," she said. "But to say the science is still out is absurd," she added. "People who don't know science like to doubt and vilify
scientists."
From the position papers:
He strongly advocated for U.S. participation in
the Kyoto accords and other international environmental initiatives, and
personally participated in many major world environmental summits, including
conferences at Rio de Janiero, Kyoto and the Hague.
From "What Leading Voices have to say about John Kerry": by Environmental
Director/Mass.
" Kerry's been a consistent environmentalist. He strongly opposed Bush's efforts to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling and backed the Kyoto Protocols"
From a statement by the League of Conservation Voters:
"From getting America back into the game in the fight against global warming to..."
Unattributed quote from Time mag;
"Whether it be for his home state - cleaning up Boston Harbor, protecting the drinking water of Cape Cod, taking on corporate polluters - or the nation - ANWR, Kyoto, CAFE standards and much more - John has stepped forward to lead."
Statement by John P. DeVillars, Mass Secretary of the Environment:
"When Bill Clinton needed support on tough and politically difficult issues like
climate change, the one person we could always count on was John Kerry. He
came to every round of negotiations over the Kyoto Protocol all around the
world and was a strong voice for action. He was always out-numbered by
corporate lobbyists and opponents of environmental progress, but he never
backed down. He not only has vision, he has guts."
From an article from The Press Democrat (Sept 18, 04) included in the Kerry
site: "Kerry promises to respond to the threat of global warming - endorsing
the Kyoto Protocol,"
But in the only statement that I could find on the entire Web site by
Kerry/Edwards on their Kyoto position was from the article that explains
their plan for "Clean Coal":
John Kerry and John Edwards believe that the Kyoto Protocol is not the
answer. The near-term emission reductions it would require of the United States are infeasible, while the long-term obligations imposed on all nations are too little to solve the problem.
Unlike the current Administration, John Kerry and John Edwards will offer an alternative to the Kyoto process that leads the world toward a more equitable and effective answer, while preserving coal miners' jobs.
Now, in my book I'll take someone I trust, even if I don't totally agree with them, , over someone who I don't trust, no matter what they SAY.
The above Kerry Web site is simply deceitful.
It is carefully crafted to have OTHERS say that Kerry is a Kyoto supporter. Thus he doesn't actually lie,
but then you get to the speech he delivered in a coal mining town and you get a totally different Kerry.
But its his web site and he should KNOW what it is saying, besides the Pro Kyoto pieces are quite easy to find, thus he SHOULD have clarifed his position or removed those misleading statements.
You don't get a lot of chances to get true insight into a candidate, but this little trip through his web site made up my mind.
What predetermined position????
Why the heck do you think I did all this research? To find things that agreed with some apriori knowledge?
I started out with zip knowledge, thus no opinion. The posts are a result of a lot of research.
I am very much for the environment and world stability.
What have I posted that would indicate otherwise?
My stance on GW?
If so, bring it on, GW is the biggest sham ever foisted upon the world.
I cited dates, temps, ppms, trends, research etc etc and will gladly provide REAMS of supporting data, but after 7 years of THOROUGHLY researching this issue, reading the scientific papers, discussing it endlessly the conclusion remains the same, we are being hoodwinked by politicians and scientists willing to distort the facts to keep their personal gravy train going.
Arthur