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Nick
"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon. I want to know His thoughts. The rest are just details."

Albert Einstein
kaneda
The bible obviously cannot tell us in it's totally flawed tale of creation.


In a way, we are still no more knowledgeable about how everything began than when Einstein was born. We have lots more theories but still no facts.
Insyght
You never will have any facts. Before you turn this to bash those who believe in a God, let me tell you that the scriptures make clear that we will not know either. No one will ever KNOW. Theorize how you want, believe all you want.

The simple fact is that you exist and you will never be completely sure how that is possible.
AlphaNumeric
We understand the universe WAY more than 130 years ago. 130 years ago we didn't even know the electron existed or that there was more than 1 galaxy in the universe (we thought the Milky Way WAS the universe) or that there were more than 2 forces. Those aren't theories, they are fact.

Saying we no more enlightened about the universe now is BS.
Nick
QUOTE (kaneda+Nov 27 2006, 04:20 PM)
In a way, we are still no more knowledgeable about how everything began than when Einstein was born. We have lots more theories but still no facts.

There was at Time Zero a space-time singularity. Sometime after expansion matter began with a finite density.

There is no "matter singularity" only because its gravity would be infinite. So how could anything expand against it?
tlocity
Nick;
QUOTE
There was at Time Zero a space-time singularity. Sometime after expansion matter began with a finite density.

There is no "matter singularity" only because its gravity would be infinite. So how could anything expand against it?
All energy is simply a differential of the construct of the cosmos. Cosmos is defined here as all that exists.

At creation, all God needed to do was distort the construct. This is nothing more for God then for us to pluck the strings of a musical instrument. As recognized by math there are an unlimited number of dimensions. This distortion could have taken place in as many dimensions as God desired.

Gravity is only a three-dimensional force and has no effect on the direction of the expansion from the Big Bang. Also, at the point of creation there was no mass and therefore no gravity. The start of the universe was in a plasma state or higher and mass did not come into being until after the universe cooled from expansion.
kaneda
Nick. What you are talking about is somewhere near creationism.
kaneda
tlocity. Energy is a distinct pattern in the Universe and not to be confused with matter, plasma, gravity, etc.

No evidence for a god.

Real world. There are 3 dimensions. No evidence for more.

Gravity could be said to operate in dimension zero in that it pulls from inside things.

The Big Bang is an idea based on one particular interpretation of the evidence and has needed many fudges to keep it afloat.
N.U.R
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Nov 27 2006, 04:24 PM)
We understand the universe WAY more than 130 years ago. 130 years ago we didn't even know the electron existed or that there was more than 1 galaxy in the universe (we thought the Milky Way WAS the universe) or that there were more than 2 forces. Those aren't theories, they are fact.

Saying we no more enlightened about the universe now is BS.

I agree 100%, one only needs to research the origins of religion to realize that mans been here for a blink of an eye and religion has been here for a blink of an eye inside that time.
Insyght
QUOTE
Saying we no more enlightened about the universe now is BS.


I never said that. Please re-read my post. I answering an attack on the Genesis account of creation by Kaneda.

I would never say such B.S.

krreagan
QUOTE (Nick+Nov 26 2006, 06:29 PM)
"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon. I want to know His thoughts. The rest are just details."

Albert Einstein

Lets see, an omnipotent being creates our universe... Why?

To let the universe play itself out and the beings therein experience existence, perhaps?
No, he/she/it is omnipotent so he/she/it would know the initial conditions of the universe and because he/she/it is omnipotent, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does not come into play. He/She/It would have prior knowledge as to how the universe would play out in the end to an infinite detail. So he/she/it could have created the universe in the completed condition bypassing all the unnecessary suffering and time wasted playing out the universe.

Any reason to create the universe is irrelevant to an omnipotent being because he/she/it can accomplish the same thing without actually creating our universe.

So why then? The only logical answer is that there is no god!

Krreagan
savagelogic
Krregan,

God created this debate.

How do you God doesn't exist if you can't see the air?
StevenA
QUOTE (Nick+)
Science has to try to understand the, power that is at the moment of creation


Was there only a single creative event, or would a continual process appear diluted over time?

If much of what we observe is composed of resonance structures, then you could easily have a scenario, similar to playing many types of resonant instruments, where a low level of energy is directed into resonant pathways and maintained.

If you've seen someone play a note on a wine glass, the energy input into it, isn't solely limited to the note you hear, but is composed of a much broader spectrum and the glass resonates and retains the energy associated with its specific frequency. Other energies are still retained, but diffused and appear chaotic.

So was it a sudden impact on a tuning fork (I don't think everything is resonant, but obviously resonant structures and properties would be easiest to observe), or the constant brushing of a violin string?

Now consider that observations of the Big Bang are not simple made in a one-way fashion. In order to interprete what happened over time by looking far out into space, assumptions are made over what the properties of space are.

If you were to take the wine glass example and reconstruct, in reverse, what the sound input to the glass, from the finger was, you'd need to first understand the properties of the glass and then invert this process.

Once you learn the properties of the glass (and air) and look "back in time" at what was input to these, you find a highly energetic, point source (chaotic information doesn't have spacial structures, until its been processed over space), that is transmitting this energy into a diffused environment with resonant structures dominating in energy content.

Now compare that to the Big Bang - you have an energetic point source, creating information that's still being detected today (we could imagine a photon travelled through space for billions of years, but on the other hand, it doesn't really exist in any tangible sense until we detect it, and you only vague predictions of where when these specific photons will be detected can be made, so for all real intents and purposes it could just as easily be said the Big Bang is still happening). The rapid inflationary period could easily be due to a rapid falling off of spatial correlations in information, the further out and back in time, we look. For example, if you look through a sheet of glass with some minor distortions, you can still determine locations and distances rather easily, but as you looked through more such glass, the distortions would grow exponentially as each previous distortion could itself be seen as more than just one by passing through other distortions, and there could be a point where the image rapidly degrades into choas, without any obvious spacial features. So this could be looking at the Big Bang, in reverse ... though if space was constantly muteable over time, this same process would, over time, occur here as well, though you wouldn't have a distorted view of time as you'd be seeing events directly and be able to extract coherent local relationships.

So, I agree that understanding how the universe evolved is important, but just to throw out another issue that goes along with this - it seems how you interprete this information is at least as much a factor in what properties the universe appears to have, as what the information specifically is - a photon is just a blip, yet you can interprete it in context as a part of a rose, or a star in the sky etc. So does the image of a rose create itself or does such an image require "an observer" able to extract the correlations in information received from it and piece them together as a rose? And you can also ask whether or not the Big Bang specifically created a Milky Way galaxy and red roses, or whether the specifics depend largely upon who's putting the photons together?
tlocity
Kaneda;

QUOTE
tlocity. Energy is a distinct pattern in the Universe and not to be confused with matter, plasma, gravity, etc.

No evidence for a god.

Real world. There are 3 dimensions. No evidence for more.

Gravity could be said to operate in dimension zero in that it pulls from inside things.

The Big Bang is an idea based on one particular interpretation of the evidence and has needed many fudges to keep it afloat.


Opinions are nice but let me tell you how it works in a discussion of a difference of opinions.
It is customary to support your opinion in some way. If all I do is state an opinion and all you do is state an opinion the exchange is over. Your first two are simple stated opinion with no consideration of facts or observation. Your third is incorrect. The simple equation of velocity is stated using a fourth dimension. v=tx v=ty v=tz. In all cases, velocity is a relationship of spatial dimension to that of the time dimension. Gravity could be said to be anything but only one thing is true. Without support for your statement, it is considered untrue.
Again your statement is without evidence.



Nick
QUOTE (tlocity+Nov 28 2006, 10:44 PM)
Kaneda;

Opinions are nice but let me tell you how it works in a discussion of a difference of opinions.
It is customary to support your opinion in some way. If all I do is state an opinion and all you do is state an opinion the exchange is over.

I don't deal in opinions. biggrin.gif
rpenner
But what is the Bible's message on morality?

Should we rejoice when our enemies suffer?

Yes. Psalm 58:10 "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."
No. Proverbs 24:17 "Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth."

Is it OK to call someone a fool?

Yes. Psalm 14:1, 53:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
Yes. Matthew 23:17, 19 "Ye fools and blind."
Yes. Luke 11:40 "Ye fools."
Yes. Luke 24:25 "O fools, and slow of heart to believe."
Yes. Romans 1:21-22 "Their foolish heart was darkened."
Yes. 1 Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool."
Yes. Galatians 3:1 "O foolish Galatians."
Yes, um, I mean No. Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Examples courtesy of http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/index.htm
Grumpy
TIMOTHY_GOOD

QUOTE
People quote the Holy Bible because they respect its wisdom. Even if one does not believe in God, they cannot deny that the Bible lays down wonderful moral guidelines.


People quote the Bible most often when they are trying to impose their own prejudices on others.

Grumpy cool.gif
TracerTong
QUOTE (rpenner+Jun 7 2009, 08:11 PM)
But what is the Bible's message on morality?

Should we rejoice when our enemies suffer?

Yes. Psalm 58:10 [KJV] "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."
But what is the Bible's message on morality?

The contexts wasn't this; the verse was about God's rightous judgement.
Psalm 58:1 KJV Starts by asking this question:
"Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?" Grumpy makes a good point.

You can understand the context of the verse by looking at the entire chapter and some website's give bible verses side by side to understand the meaning. I think it is making an exaggerated comparison.
The bible can be poetic at times. The Message version tries to show this more clearly. And there are also commentaries like the skeptics one you used and others.
rpenner
The Message? Even the Message's horrendous paraphrase of Psalm 58 makes it clear the message is to be happy at the suffering of the wicked.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...20;&version=65;
Meem
You mean like Bernie Madoff- with everyone's money, to jail! That foolishness is funny ... I think ... wait, maybe I shouldn't think. wink.gif The greedy got a greedy man.
Mark Dawson
Each of us attempts to determine the meaning of the current events. We are assured everything will be all right, but we wonder. May our lives and our values reflect Christ's light. May we be lights in darkness. May we be the assurance that things can be all right. Because we are America? No. Because of our great military might? No. Because of our economic strength? No. Because of our position as leader of the free world? No. Because of our reputation as the defender of freedom? No. Because of our incredible technology? No.

Then why? Because Jesus is the Christ. Whatever happens, it will be all right.

magpies
Every thing is knowable if your willing to pay the price to know it. Every thing besides the unknowable that is. The question is not can these things be known as much as it is do I really want to know. For you non believers what if it was true god does exist? Would you ever accept it? And for you believers what if it was true god didn't exist? Would you ever accept it? Could you live in a world you don't agree with?
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE
For you non believers what if it was true god does exist? Would you ever accept it?


Which god? I'll assume you mean the Abrahamic variant.
I speak only for myself of course, but if something exists which has the capability of concealing itself from us and cannot be verified cannot be tested or confirmed then it's business as usual for us mere mortals. What difference would it make?

OTOH If the 'thing' reveals itself and is verified, confirmed, proven to be so, acceptance is one thing. It's the 24hr Grovelling, slave like, worship that I'd have a problem with. Wouldn't the paranoia drive you mad? This entity would literally know everything, all your private thoughts and moments. Sex would be strange with a God watching ALL the time. It is the end of freedom the end of science and the dawning of a new age serving under a capricious being that you didn't vote for and can never be deposed, can convict you of thought crimes and sentence you to eternal punishment.
Check out Christopher Hitchens's numerous youtube talks or his book 'God is not Great' to get a flavour of what living under divine rule would be like for anyone with half a brain or an ounce of self respect.
CHANDRAKANTA
Before there was anything, there existed Shuzanghu and his wife, Zumaing-Nui. In time she gave birth to a girl (earth) and a boy (sky). Sky and earth mated and gave birth to the mountains. Then they produced two frogs who married and made the first humans. These humans were covered with thick hair, but when they mated they produced people as they are now.
El_Machinae
Mountains are very pretty. They should be proud.
Michael Jackson
In a world filled with hate, we must still dare to hope. In a world filled with anger, we must still dare to comfort. In a world filled with despair, we must still dare to dream. And in a world filled with distrust, we must still dare to believe.
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