To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: SO HOW DO MAGNETS WORK WITHOUT DRAINING
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > Technology > Technology
Pages: 1, 2

ne1
Can anyone explain this and shouldnt we be looking at magnetics for creating energy
hegel7655
they do drain. all magnets used for heavy duty projects, such as lifting cars, are electromagnets meaning that they're constantly supplied with electrons to keep the atoms polarized.
ne1
Fridge magnets dont have any source of energy so how do they fight gravity dry.gif
thezman
Hi,

There is energy stored in the magnetic field . This energy is continuously replenished by the aligned electron spins.

z
phys
Check your high-school physics textbook: a magnetic field does not perform work. ie F * v = 0. Therefore a magnet is not "using up" energy and thus does not need to be "replenished".
rpenner
Indeed, the whole concept of (change in energy) = (work) = (Force (dot product) distance) = (power time time) is central to the math of conservative forces.

Otherwise, electrons would get tired of "holding onto protons", the sun would get tired of "holding onto" the earth, etc.

Clearly, human beings get tired holding up weights, but human muscles work by continuous microscopic motion and generate waste heat. So it's a bad idea to try and generalize the human concept of muscle work with the mathematical term "work" in Newtonian mechanics.
the1physicist
QUOTE
There is energy stored in the magnetic field . This energy is continuously replenished by the aligned electron spins.
AHA! Good man, z, but where do they get their energy from? Is it not the weak force? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the asymmetry of the weak force allows for the free extraction of energy in unlimited quantities.
ARtone
you cant say that a magnet attached to a fridge door is not using energy otherwise we would have perpetual motion. Throw those text books away they are just achademic hype, held onto by the institutionalised.

AR
Guest_colby
ne1,

You have asked the right question. The answer is that we don't know what's going on.

Don't listen to the work function. Listen to your intuition.

Take two blocks of wood and stand them up next to each other on the table with just enough room to fit your hand in between. Place you hand in the center, close your eyes- and feel.

Go on Ebay and purchase a pair of strong one inch by one inch neodymium magnets. Place them on either side of one hand, close your eyes- and feel.

They pull. And pull and pull and pull. They don’t get warm or run out of gas. They are different then the wood. It hurts if they are large enough. If you apply the work function to the wood and then to the magnets you will get the same result but you know, through intuition, that the wood and the magnets are different.

In the high-school physics books you will see magnetism described as ‘magnetic lines of flux’. There will be pictures of a bar magnet with lines surrounding- then you will be shown pictures of a bar magnet with iron filings showing the same lines. This is a misnomer. The lines only exist when you have particles of material in the field. Large particles result in large lines. Small particles result in small lines. Available on the web are sheets of a green plastic material that you can hold over a magnet to view its field. The plastic contains very small particles. You can better see then that there are no lines without the particles and that the lines you are shown in the physics books are actually topological maps of field strength.

Take some wire, wind it into a coil. Attach the coil to a spectrum analyzer that allows you to see the frequency of a signal. Move a magnet across the coil. You will see the very low end of the spectrum move. Attach the magnet to a hand held drill, place it next to the coil and slowly speed up the drill. The spectrum analyzer will show to you the frequency at which the magnet is spinning. As you increase the speed of the drill the speed of the vibrating magnetic field increases. If your drill would go fast enough and the spectrum analyzer was responsive to a wide range of frequencies, you would see that as you speed up the magnet the field becomes ‘long waves’, then ‘short waves’, then ‘radio waves’, then ‘microwaves’, then ‘infrared light’, then ‘visible light’, then ‘ultraviolet light’, then ‘x rays’ ect.

Is it all the same thing?

Colby
RAGUS
For a long time I have wondered about the supposed "permanent" magnets. Though these "permanent" magnets, like your little 6th grade bar magnets do not actually last forever.
I am convinced that there is a way to harness the magnetic field of permanent magnets and use it as energy. I don't see why spinning a magnet near a coil is the only way to draw energy from it. There is a field there, there must be some way to harness that field without having to apply mechanical energy. And I actually have an idea of how to apply this idea, but on the billion to one shot that my idea would work, I am afraid to even mention it here. If it were true that one could harness a stationary magnetic field, and I came up with it, it would be one of the biggets scientific discoveries in recent memory, and if somebody else got to it before me I do belive i'd have to jump off a cliff.
Guest
QUOTE (ARtone+Feb 14 2005, 03:07 AM)
you cant say that a magnet attached to a fridge door is not using energy otherwise we would have perpetual motion. Throw those text books away they are just achademic hype, held onto by the institutionalised.

AR

AR, I'd been wondering where you've been (hoped you hadn't taken umbrage enough that mattered,,, not from me, of course )

Of course the magnet to the fridge is expending energy (the alignment is being degaussed)... However, for your entertainment, et al, following is a link to a video clip of a practicable example of a perpetual motion machine based on magnetics tongue.gif
esin
Sorry, this box hasn't a cookie to be found,,, that was my post ~esin
Mr Spock
It would be logical to assume that your idea of harnessing energy from a stationary field has already been attempted given the number of years that the human race has been exposed to these "permanent" magnets. However, if you have discovered what others have overlooked, it would be a greater advantage to the human race that you divulge this knowledge when the possibility of a greater good exists. The energy needs of the many outweigh the monetary needs of the few or the one.
Moseley
Hi All, find this very interesting but realise I do not know enough about what is really going on. I have never seen a fridge magnet fall off - but presumably they do after some length of time. Can the decay of the field be mathematically expressed - and then related to the electron alignment?
WaterBreath
I'm no expert, but I have a little working knowledge here, and it seems some of the posters might not completely understand the nature of "permanent" magnets. In my understanding, the magnetic field of a permanent magnet is really just the sum of the tiny magnetic fields of its constituent atoms/molecules. These fields, in turn, are generated by the motion of electrons in orbitals around the atoms. The field generated by these electrons themselves I would not expect to decay. However, I would imagine that various external factors, as well as just the chaos of atom motion, would cause a degradation of the alignment of all electrons. Hence Moseley's question:

QUOTE
Can the decay of the field be mathematically expressed - and then related to the electron alignment?

My guess is that there are some equations that account for different factors, probably resembling the equations related to radiation, and heat transfer between materials. I don't know of them though. In any case, the "drain" would not be because of the energy being "used up". It's potential energy, it's already in it's default state. Potential energy just seeks to return to equilibrium. (More about that below.)

the1Physicist:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Can the decay of the field be mathematically expressed - and then related to the electron alignment?

My guess is that there are some equations that account for different factors, probably resembling the equations related to radiation, and heat transfer between materials. I don't know of them though. In any case, the "drain" would not be because of the energy being "used up". It's potential energy, it's already in it's default state. Potential energy just seeks to return to equilibrium. (More about that below.)

the1Physicist:
the asymmetry of the weak force allows for the free extraction of energy in unlimited quantities.

Sounds like you're treading dangerous ground here. Sounds a little like you're claiming the tenets of thermodynamics can be broken. Yes, I understand that they can be locally bent within a system, but the1's quote here invokes in me images of perpetual motion machines.


QUOTE
If your drill would go fast enough and the spectrum analyzer was responsive to a wide range of frequencies, you would see that as you speed up the magnet the field becomes ‘long waves’, then ‘short waves’, then ‘radio waves’, then ‘microwaves’, then ‘infrared light’, then ‘visible light’, then ‘ultraviolet light’, then ‘x rays’ ect.

Is it all the same thing?

The field in question is not propagating, so no I don't think it's quite the same thing. Remember that light (regardless where it is in the spectrum) is the propagation of orthogonal magnetic and electric fields. An oscillating stationary field is not the same thing, as far as I understand. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, though, because as I said, I'm not an expert.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If your drill would go fast enough and the spectrum analyzer was responsive to a wide range of frequencies, you would see that as you speed up the magnet the field becomes ‘long waves’, then ‘short waves’, then ‘radio waves’, then ‘microwaves’, then ‘infrared light’, then ‘visible light’, then ‘ultraviolet light’, then ‘x rays’ ect.

Is it all the same thing?

The field in question is not propagating, so no I don't think it's quite the same thing. Remember that light (regardless where it is in the spectrum) is the propagation of orthogonal magnetic and electric fields. An oscillating stationary field is not the same thing, as far as I understand. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, though, because as I said, I'm not an expert.


They pull. And pull and pull and pull. They don’t get warm or run out of gas. They are different then the wood. It hurts if they are large enough. If you apply the work function to the wood and then to the magnets you will get the same result but you know, through intuition, that the wood and the magnets are different.

This doesn't sound intuitive to me at all, actually. Again, maybe I'm wrong here, but this is how I've always thought of it: First, we need to remember that for the field of a permanent magnet to affect another object, it must also have a magnetic/electric nature. This also would require that the objects are acting on each other. It's not just a one-way process. And since they are acting on each other, with the same mechanism (electro-magnetic fields), there is a potential energy difference, and an equilibrium that comes into play. Since the deciding factor of the strength of the effect is distance, distance is what will change to bring the items into equilibrium. Once they are together, they don't move any more. And the force you experience in pulling them apart is just their "desire" to return to the immobile equilibrium state. With your hand between the magnets, your hand becomes part of the equation, and transfers some amount of the force between the magnets. It's not much different than standing on a box. The box becomes a part of the equilibrium between you and the ground.

Now as I said, my understanding is not perfect, but I think I've got a handle on the general idea here. I would very much welcome anyone who can correct and explain any mistakes, and fill in gaps. To get a real understanding of what's going on here, you probably have to go down to pretty small levels.
the1physicist
QUOTE
The lines only exist when you have particles of material in the field. Large particles result in large lines. Small particles result in small lines.
Finally! Someone who understands what I've been saying for a long time. (not on this forum, but elsewhere)
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The lines only exist when you have particles of material in the field. Large particles result in large lines. Small particles result in small lines.
Finally! Someone who understands what I've been saying for a long time. (not on this forum, but elsewhere)
Sounds like you're treading dangerous ground here. Sounds a little like you're claiming the tenets of thermodynamics can be broken. Yes, I understand that they can be locally bent within a system, but the1's quote here invokes in me images of perpetual motion machines.
That's exactly what I'm saying. cool.gif However, you are correct: overunity is and only is a quantum phenomena. However, there are ways (which I can show in another topic) of extrapolating it to the macroscopic world.
QUOTE
if somebody else got to it before me I do belive i'd have to jump off a cliff.
Sorry there chief, but it has been done. All you have to do is perturb the magnetic field (with an electromagnet) very quickly (that is the key) and absorb the 'rebound' with another coil. Perhaps we should open another free energy thread?
smallevels
did somebody call me?.........hello?.......oh that question again! unfortunately there is not enough time or space here for me to elaborate and any short comment would be misinterprited.but of course,that is what keeps it all going!what you ask?why ignorance of course!I'll find the time one of these days!I promise!toodillou! biggrin.gif
RAGUS
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 14 2005, 08:03 AM)
for your entertainment, et al, following is a link to a video clip of a practicable example of a perpetual motion machine based on magnetics tongue.gif

Is that for real?


...can't be...
Guest
Asking if a magnet will wear out is like asking will gravity wear out. Do you guys think that one day the gravity in matter will run out and things will just float apart?

The magnetic force between magnetic forces is slightly more complicated (although easier to manipulate) than gravity but is a fundamental property of the material.

If you think that electrons will eventually stop due to friction or things will float into space when gravity wears out or that elemental iron will run out of 'ironness' then you may worry about magnets too.
Magnets

I was reading earlier and you said that when u stick your hand in between a magnet it hurts?

Well apparently humans have a small amount of electronic energy running thought them and as magnets attract energy, if the magnet is powerful enough well hell yeah it will hurt as it is trying to pull slight electronic waves out of your body?

I could be wrong but this is what I figured?

Can any one correct me here?

Also how long does a permanent magnet last if it is permanently in a motion or when you take a permanent magnet and put the two north or south poles together, I know they repel in a random motion obviously to return to equilibrium, as said before, but if the magnets were permanently put north to north and south to south would the magnet simple lose it's magnetism?

I believe that the key to relative energy lies in magnets if I could have these questions answered then I would know for sure whether relative energy lies in magnets?

Also do electromagnets magnetism last for ever like a electromagnetic train would they eventual have to replace the electromagnets

Thanks Ste

Just what I was thinking on last statement correct anything u wish if I have it all wrong this is based on my own knowledge I have learned over time! unsure.gif

Gravity will it wear out? Hmmm because we are slowly getting closer to the sun each day we sit on this earth we get slightly closer to the sun meaning that eventually when the sun gets bigger and bigger pulling us in to it, the gravity will go or the sun will burn out and we will die from lose of heat? Well would of died before we all got sucked in to the sun as it would of burned us alive! Ouch!!!!! Why do u think NASA and space programs exist to explore the unknown well that’s what we like to think I personally think it is so we can get of earth and move some where else if it is going to get blown up or sucked in? But back to the question!

I have not answered the question yet will gratuity stop, magnets don't work like planets? Planets are getting pulled in to the suns gravity and so is the moon on earth getting closer to the earth very slowly but that’s how it works have you not ever wonder if you could harness the energy of perpetual plants spinning and spinning, well magnets work a lot like this but not the same they do not have the same kind of magnetic field that a planet does or any a star does, planets are getting pulled in to the gravity field of the earth as it spins, and this makes the moon get closer if you could make a set of magnets and put a coil in the middle and get the magnet to spin round the middle gravity of a magnet then u would have relative energy but as magnets don’t work like this then it is not possible. Magnets attract certain elements and planets gravitational attracts every element because gravity is created by the constant spin of the earth, I heard a theory that the earth is slowly stopping to spin at a very slow rate like a spinning top except the earth has some kind of magnetic field that makes it spin longer? Don’t know if this is right but if it is then no gravity will not last forever!!!!

thanks for reading!! smile.gif
Ste
Just thought of a way to explain it better earth is constantly spinning thouse pulling every thing down because it is creating the gravity field if the earth was to spin faster we would all get crushed with the force and the earth may even imploded, if the earth was to a lot less then we would be able to moon jump or if the earth was to stop spinning then we would die from lake of air and float away wee super man, earth works a lot like a bucket of water if you spin it real fast then the water stays in the bocket but if u spin it slow u get wet!! i know i am not compan sating for space but if you was to spin a bucket in space eventually with the right speed the water would not be able to go thruse having it's own grapity field.

Again correct me if i am wrong!

basically what i am tryin to say is graphity will only last as long as the earth spins and theoritcly this is impossible,

1. comets
2. stupid humans playing war
3. if the earth spin is slowing
4. balance (eventually motion has to stop)

So i personaly don't think graphity will last forever it will most porbable last my life time, but that is not forever.
Guest_solidspin
I think I can comment on this, since I sit underneath a supercon magnet all the time!

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the source of magnetism on a macroscopic level yet? Great natural magnets are so because they're very often high-spin d-orbital elements (Fe, Co, Ni) and all their spins in these d-orbitals are unpaired and parallel. They have what's called a permanent magnetic moment, because their spins (their magnetic moments) always sit there like that.

HOWEVER, a permanent magnet CAN temporarily lose its moment if you crank up the temp beyond what's called the Neel temp. for that material. What's interesting is that when the electrons settle back down from the higher, thermally induced excited states, they go back to their parallel magnetic moment state.

Oxygen (O2) is paramagnetic, for example, because of its 2 unpaired electrons in what chemists call a "pi-antibonding orbital" - whatever - the point is that the unpaired electrons are randomly oriented magnetic moments, since there's no solid crystal lattice or fixed orientation (it's a gas gas gas!). So you can make oxygen's electrons line up in a parallel state if you apply a field to them (it's old school but its called a Guoy balance).

I just gave a talk on SMMs or single molecular magnets. Just like a paperclip is not magnetic but can be induced to have a magnetic moment (like we all did to mom's paperclips with refrigerator magnets), a new class of funky molecules (some as large as a freakin' protein) only 1 molecule big can be induced to have a long magnetization (like over 40 minutes - that's sweet). Even cooler, and I think STe or the1physicist mentioned this, its rare but DEFINITELY possible to see macroscopic observables of quantum mechanical phenomena. These SMMs demagnetize or relax in a stepwise fashion (not like the classical hysteresis curve, which is analog), corresponding to tunneling of magnetization to antiparallel spin states. Totally cool!

The supercon magnets are niobium tin (YBCO is great too, but it's a ceramic and therefore not malleable). It's just Faraday's law applied to a Niobium Tin (in my case) metal, which as the1physicist will agree is a free-electron gas lining up in Foch space.
lightbringer
hmmm, if you really want power from permanent magnets why not just put some peizoelectric crystals between two magnets?
moron
Because that does absolutely nothing, as you would know if you'd ever tried it.
lCine7ic
Greetings:

Do I believe in the possibility of over-unity machines? Yes. Do our current equations (based on observations available at the time they were derived) support over-unity machines? Definately not.

In regards to the topic, magnets (ones made of many magnetic molecules) don't "drain" iff the molecules w/in stay aligned or polarized and contribute to a net field significant enough to detect. As others have said, if enough heat is applied to these magnets, the electron paths of the individual molecules can change orientation--resulting in magnetic field cancelations/nulls, and generally less "magnetic strength" for the magnet.

there is not a critical distance that 2 magnets will repel each other. forces will only approach 0, but never go to 0. If the north pole of one magnet is faced w/ the north pole of another magnet, the magnets will repel to some distance and stop. The magnetic force is there, but it isn't strong enough at this point to overcome the friction of the magnets microscopically grinding across the table surface.

At this point, in my humble opinion, over-unity machines haven't been created or at least acknowledged because of the lack of frictionless materials, perfect insulators and perfect conductors. super-conductors are indeed being developed right now, it's just a matter of time until new ones are developed can operate at more realistic conditions. (temperature, etc)

solidspin
hey, all -

Interesting to have seen my own posting up there - thx to whomever posted it. Yup, I'm still sitting underneath my magnet. At least my experiment freakin' worked cool.gif

QUOTE
At this point, in my humble opinion, over-unity machines haven't been created or at least acknowledged because of the lack of frictionless materials, perfect insulators and perfect conductors. super-conductors are indeed being developed right now, it's just a matter of time until new ones are developed can operate at more realistic conditions. (temperature, etc)


Over-unity machines violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics (Entropy). I work on a superconducting magnet and lemme tell ya, no 2nd law violations here. Yes, the electrons conduct w/o resistance - a wonderful thing for us b/z we get a kick-*** homogeneous B field (B = magnetic) and once you load the electrons into the coil, no recharging. An alloy of niobium-tin is used as the coil.

BUTTTTTTTT, the coil is surrounded by a liquid He jacket (@ ~4 Kelvin) and THAT He jacket is surrounded by a liquid N2 jacket (@ ~ 77 K). So there's a ton of "energy" if you will, to maintain that cold environment.

Regular or permanent magnets (like the Nd-Co-Fe mentioned before) are called "high-spin". the reason is that the way the electrons lie around the nuclei in the alloy are such that they have found an energy minimum being unpaired in the d-orbitals (remember s,p,d,f from hs chem?). The more unpaired electrons, the more parallel spins (all pointing one direction - north-south, right?), the more parallel spins, the stronger the magnet. This is measured as magnetic susceptibility (chi) or magnetization per unit volume.

Permanent magnets CAN be demagnetized by heating them past what's called the Néel temperature (after the french dude who discovered this). The added heat excites the electrons out of their local minima and they pair up (antiparallel). BUT as long as you dont change the arrangement of the atoms in the alloy, you will regain the magnetization.

As to the energy question, come up w/ an engine, motor or what have you using ONLY magnets (no other "energy" source). You'll see that you wont be able to w/o some other use of power to either rotate the magnets or use belts or what have you. The 2nd law is a tricky one!

- gleefully spinning solids.
solidspin
sorry,

I forgot. Magnets work w/o draining b/z ANYTHING above absolute zero (0 K or -273.15º C) has energy in it due to temperature. There are some Egggggggggzellent articles on this, w/r/t/ Fermi-Dirac statistics, which describe the physics that govern "occupied states" for electrons near zero, above zero, etc. Also, look up "partition function" or "canonical distribution" - also excellent topics.

The fridge magnet sitting there is still WAY THE HECK above absolute zero, sooooooo the electrons are perfectly happy where they are, at like 72ºF (~25ºC ) in your kitchen - yet not too hot to be jumping out of their local minima and pairing up. All the energy they need to stay put is commuted by spring, the fridge compressor, your boiler, etc.

Neodymium (Nd) is one of those nice elements that has f-orbitals which add to the "unpairedness" of the Fe and the Co. Ck it out way down in the funky section that is usually represented separately from the rest of the elements in the PT. Although f-orbitals are normally more contracted toward the nucleus than the d-orbitals (for reasons too complex for here), they still help in adding to the "unpairedness" of permanent magnets.
EE
The USPTO does not grant patents to perpetual motion machines. If you look at Bearden's patent it is for a generator. Fine, you pass current through the first coil, it generates a magnetic field which induces a current in the second coil. So? Over unity is just another way of saying perpetual motion. He does not make that claim in his patent. It just doesn't exist.

Those that claim they have created one like Bearden, Bill Lee, etc. are just deluding themselves or others for profit. (They're scammers)

Sorry
Tachyon8491
Overunity does not imply perpetual motion, as Bearden explains in great conceptual and mathematically modelled detail. Fundamentally B explains how Maxwellian electrodynamic modelling assumed the common dipole (electron) to be a source of energy, assuming virtual positive charges to effect charge balance. Where this energy came from was never satisfactorily explained. After Maxwell's unification modelling of electromagnetism and his demise, in the 1880s, Poynting and Heaviside almost simultaneously discovered EM energy flow in space which had not been used as a concept in physics before this. Poynting inferred from Maxwellian modelling that the current-inducing energy moved "perpendicularly to the plane containing the lines of electric and magnetic intensity, and that it comes into the conductor from the surrounding insulator, not flowing along the wire."

Poynting therefore only considered the energy flow actually entering the conductor and never considered the enormous EM energy surrounding the conductor which is not diverged into it, never dissipated and therefore effectively wasted.

Heaviside was quite aware of this non-diverged "dark energy" and mentioned, "...it takes place, in the vicinity of the wire, very nearly parallel to it, with a slight slope towards the wire... Prof. Poynting, on the other hand, holds a different view, representing the transfer as nearly perpendicular to a wire, i.e. with a slight departure from the vertical. The difference of a quadrant can, I think, only arise from what seems to be a misconception on his part as to the nature of the electric field in the vicinity of a wire supporting electric current. The lines of electric force are nearly perpendicular to the wire. The departure from perpendicularity is usually so small that I have sometimes spoken of them as being perpendicular to it, as they practically are, before I recognised the greatr physical importance of the slight departure. It causes the convergence of energy into the wire."

The tiny inducing converged component is known as the Poynting component, and typically amounts to some 10E-13th part of the non-converged inducing energy, the Heaviside Component. Heaviside was fully aware that after the convergence of the tiny P-component, the remaining energy-flow vector was still almost parallel to the conductors. He had no idea where this enormous energy was sourced from though, and in order to save himself from "perpetuum mobile" accusations did not pursue the question further - although his records show clearly that he understood its vital importance.

The famous Lorentz understood well the existence of both the P- and H-components, but, of course, also fearing an automatically crashing reputation and having no explanation for the enormity of the H-dark energy, did the best he could to escape the consequences of investigating it further in declaring it "physically insignificant." Mathematically he used a modelling trick known as "symmetrical regauging" which made the H-component effectively disappear and as "insignificant" as he, perhaps wishfully, wished it to be.

Effectively, the conventional, classical modelling that assumes the electron to be a source of energy, this energy coming from absolutely nowhere, still confidently taught by academe in learned environments, is in fact, quite paradoxically, the very perpetuum mobile assumption that they justifiably, wish to desperately avoid.

As Bearden points out in his very seminal paper "Giant Negentropy from the Common Dipole" (which I doubt any of the "experts" who pooh-pooh overunity as an achievable system phenomenon have read one single word of..) "Finally we note that even today, a debate on what the Poynting vector is or should be, is still politely ongoing. As an example, it has been ongoing for more than forty years in the American Journal of Physics alone."

For those who have an open receptivity and not the far more typical "It can't be therefore it isn't" attitude, I would advise to also study in this mentioned paper the Whittaker decomposition of the dipole's scalar potential into a harmonic set of EM waves from the complex plane flowing into, and an exactly correlating set of EM waves flowing out of the dipole into three space. This releases 3-symmetry in EM energy-flow in the dipole's energy exchange with the vacuum, while conserving 4-symmetry.

At least one other vital paper, "The Source Charge Problem: its Solution and Implications" is a must read. For those interested there is "The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator: How it Works," and further, the detailed US Patent 6362718 description. For those willing to dedicate the energy and to study the scientific modelling and maths in Bearden et al's excellently referenced foundational papers, you may find yourself undergoing interesting conversions.

FV
Chrome Warrior
Well i have been here on an off and i still cant get grant money for my Electromagnetic Pulsed Engine as all want to OWN IT.

Look using crystals and magnets and a mean power supply to kick start the project
we can have a pulsed drive via a enclosed vessel and a self ripping apart and rebonding of magnetic fields.
Then we actually create enough heat that extra gasses and liquids will be used to help in re-generating its own electricity.
Its not that hard as the Tech is already here although the magnetic field strength will be massive and care and concideration to Humans and all carbon life forms is a must.
Truly useless if you kill off the human crew or the people around the launch site does wonders for the crafts media people .
Try looking up the Plasma /Electromagnetic Field setup Japan and Germany have just to contain the hot plasma they created about 3 million degrees with plans for 5-10 million degrees.We dont have material to hold it ONLY ELECTROMAGNETISM
holds in the Plasma created with all the experiments they are persuing.
Well enough from me have a gooood look around we dont need petroleum any more really just the kickbacks keep goin on an on an on smile.gif

Madkite
I had some interesting thought on this.

I had a flash one day and wondered what if a permanent magnets field was not always in one state. What if it had two states passive and active.
Imagine a magnet and a piece of iron. As you bring the iron toward the magnet it pules on it. The field becomes active and as it approaches it and charges up the iron with magnetism. When the iron is stopped and it is fully charged then the field becomes passive again. When the iron is puled away it releases its energy back in to the magnets field and causes it to become active again. If a coil is wrapped around the magnet it registers a current only when the field is active. If the coil is moved in relation to the magnet it to causes it to become active and it registers a current once more. This explains the Faraday disk dynamo. But not the one piece Faraday disk dynamo where the magnet is spun with the disk and it still produces a current. I have an another theory as to how the field in this case could become active but i do not wish to disclose it until i have conducted my experiments. I am not sure if my devise will produce free energy if it works but if the theory is correct it will mean i can make motors where the armature turns without magnetic fields or anything else to trust against.

Hear is a link witch is most interesting but if you don't have broad band it my take an age to download the film. If genuine it is exactly the result my theory would predict. http://www.andrijar.com/homavi/movie.htm
NBC
rolleyes.gif
Wrong question.
Try: Why do magnets work?
Nobody seems to know.
snelson5871
Well to all of you haters out there. I have successfully made a magnetic flywheel. This flywheel spins with just the power of magnets nothing else. As soon as the holidays are over I am going to start building a second one which will be more efficient because I finally found a website to order custom made neodymium magnets. My first prototype was made of magnets and wood and when I went to stop the spin the wood parts broke and the magnets crashed together causing most of them to break. Now my second prototype will also include a part to generate electricity (unlike my first which just spun) It was very tricky to figure it out and I can really see how it hasn't really been done by too many people yet but if the evil people dont try to stop my I intend to bring a working model to the patent office where it will have to spin for one full year before my patent is granted but you better believe that I will make as many media people as I can know whats going on and I will set up a major camera system around it so that no one messes with it. Now I cannot give away the whole theory but Ill just say this. The basic element of this is that I had to bolt two magnets together so that their repelling sides faced each other and made a ring of these and a ring of regular stationary magnets on the outside. Now I know there are people that will try to discredit me and I will try to explain to any skeptics how I overcame the obvious problems without giving away too much.
Madkite
I wouldn't discredit you. Just show me a film as I would obviously ask for some proof. But I dint see why it can't work. But I am quite quite mad. Dam that link doesn't work anymore I posted.

Madkite.
snelson5871
Well we'll see about a video after christmas hopefully I get enough money in gift cards to get a camera because I am a broke dude.
Guest_Mike
I am just a ninth grader who likes to think. i dont know who you are but in case you are proffesionals i felt a need to tell you. now on to my attempts to answer problems I see here.

QUOTE

If your drill would go fast enough and the spectrum analyzer was responsive to a wide range of frequencies, you would see that as you speed up the magnet the field becomes ‘long waves’, then ‘short waves’, then ‘radio waves’, then ‘microwaves’, then ‘infrared light’, then ‘visible light’, then ‘ultraviolet light’, then ‘x rays’ ect.

Is it all the same thing?


It appears to me that they are all the same thing. The different "waves" and "rays" are types of light energy. The potential energy in the battery of the drill, or the electric energy coming out of the outlet, are forms of energy which are turned into kinetic energy when the drill is spun. The amount of kinetic energy changes with the speed of the drill, which changes the type of "light" that the spectrum analyzer shows you. The magnet just provides a way to turn the kinetic energy into the different levels of "light" that the spectrum analyzer shows. this answers another problem here.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

If your drill would go fast enough and the spectrum analyzer was responsive to a wide range of frequencies, you would see that as you speed up the magnet the field becomes ‘long waves’, then ‘short waves’, then ‘radio waves’, then ‘microwaves’, then ‘infrared light’, then ‘visible light’, then ‘ultraviolet light’, then ‘x rays’ ect.

Is it all the same thing?


It appears to me that they are all the same thing. The different "waves" and "rays" are types of light energy. The potential energy in the battery of the drill, or the electric energy coming out of the outlet, are forms of energy which are turned into kinetic energy when the drill is spun. The amount of kinetic energy changes with the speed of the drill, which changes the type of "light" that the spectrum analyzer shows you. The magnet just provides a way to turn the kinetic energy into the different levels of "light" that the spectrum analyzer shows. this answers another problem here.


QUOTE 
There is energy stored in the magnetic field . This energy is continuously replenished by the aligned electron spins.


AHA! Good man, z, but where do they get their energy from? Is it not the weak force? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the asymmetry of the weak force allows for the free extraction of energy in unlimited quantities.


Wrong, there is no energy there. This leads me to see some problems with physics. if there is no energy in a magnet, how can it hold an object against gravity. obviously in order to counter the force of gravity, another force is required. I may be wrong but I think that one of the laws of physics is that there can not be a force without a source of energy. Therefore, magnets violate the laws of physics. That led me to search for a completely alternate theory of physics, and i found the book The Final Theory by Mark McCutcheon. This book has an excellent explanation of how magnets work. It states that a permanent magnet works because all of the electrons are pulled into a field on the North side of the magnet. Therefore when two magnets are pushed together with the North pole facing each other, they are repelled by the strong or weak atomic force (I forget which). The same thing happens with the South poles except the protons repel each other. When the north and south are put together, the North of one magnet rushes to fill the void of electrons on the south of the other magnet, and the same happens with the protons. This may not make sense with normal physics but if you understand the idea of expanding matter (there is an explanation on www.thefinaltheory.com and you can also buy the book there) this will make perfect sense.

Now on to some other things i would like to correct

QUOTE

Just thought of a way to explain it better earth is constantly spinning thouse pulling every thing down because it is creating the gravity field if the earth was to spin faster we would all get crushed with the force and the earth may even imploded, if the earth was to a lot less then we would be able to moon jump or if the earth was to stop spinning then we would die from lake of air and float away wee super man, earth works a lot like a bucket of water if you spin it real fast then the water stays in the bocket but if u spin it slow u get wet!! i know i am not compan sating for space but if you was to spin a bucket in space eventually with the right speed the water would not be able to go thruse having it's own grapity field.

Again correct me if i am wrong!

basically what i am tryin to say is graphity will only last as long as the earth spins and theoritcly this is impossible,

1. comets
2. stupid humans playing war
3. if the earth spin is slowing
4. balance (eventually motion has to stop)

So i personaly don't think graphity will last forever it will most porbable last my life time, but that is not forever.


The idea of earth being like a bucket being spun is unbelievably flawed. I'm sorry but i have to point this out. Others may have thought it was above their head and therefore they couldn't understand it, but quite simply it makes no sense. A bucket filled with water contains the water because of centrepital force pushing outwards on the water, but the water stays in because it is supported by the bottom of the bucket. Gravity works the opposite way. the Earth is spinning in a way that if it spun slower, we would feel heavier because we wouldn't be pushed out by centrepital force, and would be experiencing the full effects of gravity. If the earth were to cease spinning, one side of the world would be in night half of the year. that is all.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Just thought of a way to explain it better earth is constantly spinning thouse pulling every thing down because it is creating the gravity field if the earth was to spin faster we would all get crushed with the force and the earth may even imploded, if the earth was to a lot less then we would be able to moon jump or if the earth was to stop spinning then we would die from lake of air and float away wee super man, earth works a lot like a bucket of water if you spin it real fast then the water stays in the bocket but if u spin it slow u get wet!! i know i am not compan sating for space but if you was to spin a bucket in space eventually with the right speed the water would not be able to go thruse having it's own grapity field.

Again correct me if i am wrong!

basically what i am tryin to say is graphity will only last as long as the earth spins and theoritcly this is impossible,

1. comets
2. stupid humans playing war
3. if the earth spin is slowing
4. balance (eventually motion has to stop)

So i personaly don't think graphity will last forever it will most porbable last my life time, but that is not forever.


The idea of earth being like a bucket being spun is unbelievably flawed. I'm sorry but i have to point this out. Others may have thought it was above their head and therefore they couldn't understand it, but quite simply it makes no sense. A bucket filled with water contains the water because of centrepital force pushing outwards on the water, but the water stays in because it is supported by the bottom of the bucket. Gravity works the opposite way. the Earth is spinning in a way that if it spun slower, we would feel heavier because we wouldn't be pushed out by centrepital force, and would be experiencing the full effects of gravity. If the earth were to cease spinning, one side of the world would be in night half of the year. that is all.


As you bring the iron toward the magnet it pules on it. The field becomes active and as it approaches it and charges up the iron with magnetism. When the iron is stopped and it is fully charged then the field becomes passive again. When the iron is puled away it releases its energy back in to the magnets field and causes it to become active again.


The energy will be used up trying to counter the energy pushing or pulling the object being acted on by the magnet, therefore according to your theory, if an object a magnet can act on is held in place inside a magnetic field, and is held by an outside energy source, the magnetic energy will eventually run out. it will all have been sent down your arm, through your feet into the ground, where it barely has an influence on the movement of the earth.

QUOTE

Wrong question.
Try: Why do magnets work?
Nobody seems to know.


Mark McCutcheon seems to know wink.gif
if you didn't read my comment on The Final Theory, I will sum it up here. The electrons are all on the North Pole of the magnet. when two north poles are placed near each other the strong or weak nuclear force (sorry, forget which) pushes them away from each other. therefore there is no force such as magnetism.
AlternatePhysicist
sorry i wasn't logged in i just registered. that was my post right above this one.
TRoc
AlternatePhysicist,


Mr. McCutcheon has done some interesting work. Unfortunately, in the end, his theory is as unprovable as any portion of String theory; and that leaves us in the same boat: still hungry for understanding based on concrete demonstration.


TRoc

E. Lusive
Hold on. So if 2 magnets have potential by being different distances from each other and then coming together, wouldn't you be receiving different potential energies by creating two magnets 2 inches apart and letting them fly together or 2 million miles in space (with no external forces accounted for) and letting them eventually fly together for the input energy? I guess what I'm trying to say is that you could spend X energy in creating 2 permanent magnets, but there potential energy in reference to each other would be variable (MAYBE GREATER THAN INPUT!!!) if far enough away and considering a system in which external forces are not considered. just a guess.
Secondly I think that in order for energy to be drawn from permanent magnets, a non magnetic material with innate properties of impeding or stopping magnetic lines of force from passing through would have to be created to act as a switch that doesn't cost energy to turn on and off.
Voice of reason
Hey people. I've a better idea which doesn't even need magnets which make things too complicated.
I took one of those bart simpson fridge magnets and tore off the magnet last week, I then super-glued the bart simpson picture onto the fridge. Guess what, its still up there after a whole week. There must be as much energy in the glue as there is in a magnet!! I've nearly worked out a way to use this energy to run a motor, I'm gonna be so rich biggrin.gif
PaulBored
[/QUOTE]Mark McCutcheon seems to know wink.gif
if you didn't read my comment on The Final Theory, I will sum it up here. The electrons are all on the North Pole of the magnet. when two north poles are placed near each other the strong or weak nuclear force (sorry, forget which) pushes them away from each other. therefore there is no force such as magnetism.[QUOTE]

wait a second, strong nuclear force and nuclear force are just that, nuclear forces. Their range is too small to have the same effect. Weak force is around 10^-18 meters; strong force is extremely small as wel, considering how much energy is required for fusion to begin. Electromagnetism is a seperate force entirely.

The question is why it exists.
For that matter, where do any of the four fundamental froces come from?
Mike102668
QUOTE (thezman+Feb 13 2005, 07:49 PM)
Hi,

There is energy stored in the magnetic field . This energy is continuously replenished by the aligned electron spins.

z

That's right.

Energy is used to align the domains in the material to create the magnet, and not "stored" in the magnet as if it were some kind of battery. As long as the domains remain aligned, there will be a magnetic field.

The moving (spinning) electrons create the field. The same as running a current through a wire, a magnetic field is created, except with permanent magnets, no electricity is required.
Dr.Magnefeat
YOU GUYS/GALS MADE ME THINK SOME MORE ABOUT PERMANENT MAGNETS. SUPPOSE THIS SEEING THAT THEIR SEEMS TO BE NO ELECTRIC CURRENT FLOWING THRU THE MAGNETS AS LIKE A CONDUCTING WIRE WRAPPED AROUND AND IRON ROD TO PRODUCE AND ELECTRO MAGNET WHEN THE COILED WIRE IS SUPPLIED A VOLTAGE OF WHATEVER VOLTS. NOW LETS SAY THAT THE PERMANENT MAGNET IS LIKE THE IRON ROD BUT IT IS RECEIVING ELECTRICITY FROM SOMEWHERE BUT MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY FROM A SOURCE MAKING THE PERMANENT MAGNET BEHAVE AS IF IT WERE AN ELECTRICAL ANTENNAE. WE CAN'T FORGET THAT THEIR IS ENERGY ALL AROUND US SUCH AS RADIATION FROM ALL THE SPECTRUM OF THE ELECTROMAGNETIC SCALE EVEN THE EARTH'S OWN MAGNETIC FIELD AND GRAVITY. THE QUEST SHOULD BE TO PIN POINT THE SOURCE OF THE FIELD, IS THE FIELD GENERATED FROM WITHIN THE LODE STONE (MAGNET) OR IS IT BEING CHANNEL THRU THE MAGNET FROM OUTSIDE. A PERMANENT MAGNET COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS A ROCK THAT IS AN ANTENNAE FOUND NATURALLY ON EARTH.
real physicist
QUOTE
Fridge magnets dont have any source of energy so how do they fight gravity


The magnetic force results in attraction to the fridge door, resulting in static fraction, opposing gravity.

In equilibrium, there is no work done or energy consumed.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Fridge magnets dont have any source of energy so how do they fight gravity


The magnetic force results in attraction to the fridge door, resulting in static fraction, opposing gravity.

In equilibrium, there is no work done or energy consumed.

Check your high-school physics textbook: a magnetic field does not perform work. ie F * v = 0. Therefore a magnet is not "using up" energy and thus does not need to be "replenished".


The force pulling or pushing the object is doing the work. The electromagnetic lift did work by creating the magnetic field. There was an opposing electromotive force which was countered by expended energy.

QUOTE
AHA! Good man, z, but where do they get their energy from? Is it not the weak force? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the asymmetry of the weak force allows for the free extraction of energy in unlimited quantities.


This is a philosophical question. Where does the energy of the universe really come from? But energy is conserved, not extractable in unlimited quantities.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
AHA! Good man, z, but where do they get their energy from? Is it not the weak force? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the asymmetry of the weak force allows for the free extraction of energy in unlimited quantities.


This is a philosophical question. Where does the energy of the universe really come from? But energy is conserved, not extractable in unlimited quantities.

you cant say that a magnet attached to a fridge door is not using energy otherwise we would have perpetual motion. Throw those text books away they are just achademic hype, held onto by the institutionalised.


See the first reply. This is an equilibrium situation, so forces are balanced, and there is no displacement. F*d=0, no work done.

QUOTE
Of course the magnet to the fridge is expending energy (the alignment is being degaussed)...


Thermal degaussing is always possible, but assuming thermal equilibrium (no temperature change) no heat energy is being added to the magnet. Also, opening and closing the door delivers random mechanical shocks to the magnet, which eventually demagnetizes it to some degree. This is random energy input.
GenX
A few questions:

1. If you wrap a coil around a permanent bar magnet and run a current through that wire which would normally create a magnetic field the same strength as what you currently have with the bar magnet. Would the forces be added or increased, or would the force = out to whatever is stronger, the magnet or the coil.

2. Hypothetical: say you could run a wire through a magnet without changing the effects of the magnet at all. Also say you are running a current of some random number through the wire. would the electrons be accelerated by the magnet?(depending on the current and strength of magnet) Considering they did not have to go through the magnet, and that any effects from elsewhere on the magnet were null.
jonny
unsure.gif unsure.gif unsure.gif

I don't want to sound dumb but without quoting north and south poles and magnetic fields, iron filings, repel, retract, HOW DOES A MAGNET ACTUALLY WORK.
Pan
QUOTE
I don't want to sound dumb but without quoting north and south poles and magnetic fields, iron filings, repel, retract, HOW DOES A MAGNET ACTUALLY WORK.


Magnets have associated with them a field of force which is created by and which acts upon moving electric charges.
nooblit
OK i don't know much about physics but I'm a seventh grader that believes that in theory [QUOTE]a magnet does drain slowly but it never releases all of it energy. ph34r.gif

so in reality you people are giving textbook expression's that are being used wrong and that I'm not a noob but you guys are... tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

nooblit
OK i don't know much about physics but I'm a seventh grader that believes that in theory so in this case I quote myself [a magnet does drain slowly but it never releases all of it energy.] ph34r.gif

so in reality you people are giving textbook expression's that are being used wrong and that I'm not a noob but you guys are... tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

Epsilon-X5
Hi, sorry for bringing up an old topic here, but as one of the posters said earlier on this topic, I too have a great plan on how to harness enery from the power of magnets.

As well I do not want to post my method yet, but will like to build a model to test it. I'll need to download some sort of magnet simulator program cause I don't have the available material, I don't think that you guys should jump to conlcusions and ignore magnets as a source of energy, I think there is alot of hope in magnets happy.gif
Precursor562
QUOTE
Check your high-school physics textbook: a magnetic field does not perform work. ie F * v = 0. Therefore a magnet is not "using up" energy and thus does not need to be "replenished".


A magnet applies a constant force. This can cause a velocity in other things which then constitutes work. The work is a result of the force and the force is because of the magnetism. The magnetism of a high quality magnet will not "drain" when work is being done. If it did than it would "drain" when applying a force which would mean the magnets (which are poor quality) would fall off the fridge since the force is being applied to work against the force of gravity. That in essence is a form of work. After all, do your arms get tired when in a chin up position but not actually doing any chin ups?

A high quality magnet will only lose its field if exposed to another magnetic field stronger than it for a long enough duration or if the temperature of the magnet reaches a certain temperature. Of course things like material and size all come into play.

By reaching a certain temp I refer to an increase in temp since a decrease can cause the field strength of a magnet to become stronger.
dudes
dudes, chill out.

so magned keeps hangin on the fridge. so?

sit down and relax. do you notice how you keep sitting? do you notice how it takes some work to get up?

but then, gravitational pull of earth is not drained just because you're sitting on it.

it just happens that the power of magnet is greater than gravitational pull created by the whole planet, and that's why it doesn't fall off the fridge.

what it means is that if you add magnetic force to gravity and friction and fridge reaction, you get 0. zero. that's why magnet does not move. there's no magic about it.
Soultechs
Our eye can only see/perceive three spatial dimension: width,breadth,width. However there's more. another spatial dimension is it's electromagnetic field pertaining to it (pls don't be confused, none of these spatial dimensions is specifically working within three specific dimensions. Another spatial dimension to an object would be its gravitation(be it rest or relativistic). All these spatial dimensions add up to the real shape of an object. However our eyes can only see three aspects of an object to make sense of it in our minds. A pigeon perhaps has the ability to make imagined sense through the perception of electromagnetic lines of force.

Magnets don't ware out because the elector magnetic field is a non alternating wave/dimension of the object. It's a side of the magnets 4th dimension that is really there even though you cant see it you can feel it's surrounds and contours with holding a superconductor.

The wave/particle/energy-field is just another side to its three visible spatial dimensions. It is trans-time because attraction is instantaneous proportional to its proximity and cant were out because it's not a speed of light propagating wave. Thats why galaxies hold together in-spite of tens of thousands of light years in diameter.
Precursor562
QUOTE
so magned keeps hangin on the fridge. so?


So, the magnet holds on to the fridge by utilizing an attracting force. The same force that holds the magnet to a fridge or even a metal ceiling can be used to move objects toward and/or away and in doing so the magnet maintains its charge.
OldWoman1904
QUOTE (thezman+Feb 13 2005, 12:49 PM)
Hi,

There is energy stored in the magnetic field . This energy is continuously replenished by the aligned electron spins.

z

its the ring......its mine....give it to me.....

tongue.gif but seriously, doesnt magnetism eventually run out..?
wont gravity eventually run out on earth? when it becomes cold?

where do the electrons come from? photons? reactions?

OldWoman1904
QUOTE (Soultechs+May 14 2007, 12:59 AM)
Our eye can only see/perceive three spatial dimension: width,breadth,width. However there's more. another spatial dimension is it's electromagnetic field pertaining to it (pls don't be confused, none of these spatial dimensions is specifically working within three specific dimensions. Another spatial dimension to an object would be its gravitation(be it rest or relativistic). All these spatial dimensions add up to the real shape of an object. However our eyes can only see three aspects of an object to make sense of it in our minds. A pigeon perhaps has the ability to make imagined sense through the perception of electromagnetic lines of force.

Magnets don't ware out because the elector magnetic field is a non alternating wave/dimension of the object. It's a side of the magnets 4th dimension that is really there even though you cant see it you can feel it's surrounds and contours with holding a superconductor.

The wave/particle/energy-field is just another side to its three visible spatial dimensions. It is trans-time because attraction is instantaneous proportional to its proximity and cant were out because it's not a speed of light propagating wave. Thats why galaxies hold together in-spite of tens of thousands of light years in diameter.

i missed this one....

its a non altering wave/dimension.....?

a plane? an infinate plane? am i thinking of it right?

its not a light propogating wave.....it stops light...?

light can't get through....

so, this would be what is in the center of the universe?

magnets?

two , anode, cathode type.....

two linear structures? that would explain the flatness of galaxies....the gyroscope appearance...vertical axis...

is this right?i dont get the non light propagating part....its a piece of that....magnets? maybe something was perfectly perpendicular to the fist waves of light? and they, repeled?

can you explain metaphorically?

blink.gif for us regular people...

tongue.gif
Nick
QUOTE (jonny+Oct 11 2006, 07:58 PM)
unsure.gif unsure.gif unsure.gif

I don't want to sound dumb but without quoting north and south poles and magnetic fields, iron filings, repel, retract, HOW DOES A MAGNET ACTUALLY WORK.

I'd like to here the Einsteinian explanation if there was one. tongue.gif
OldWoman1904
QUOTE (Nick+May 14 2007, 09:40 PM)
I'd like to here the Einsteinian explanation if there was one. tongue.gif

wait......we dont know how magnets work?

Einstein didnt 'splain it?

im gonna google it...ill be back...

i cannot believe we dont know....... blink.gif
Howard M.
QUOTE (Guest+Mar 26 2005, 12:00 AM)
Asking if a magnet will wear out is like asking will gravity wear out. Do you guys think that one day the gravity in matter will run out and things will just float apart?

The magnetic force between magnetic forces is slightly more complicated (although easier to manipulate) than gravity but is a fundamental property of the material.

If you think that electrons will eventually stop due to friction or things will float into space when gravity wears out or that elemental iron will run out of 'ironness' then you may worry about magnets too.

What would be the best book on explaing how magnets work and how do electrons and protons operate in magnetism?
jeffsaunders
Well lets see if this is true.

I have to say that I have not studied magnetism except in the most general senses.

But I feel that it should be pretty obvious that magnets do wear out.

1) It is quite simple to build an electric generator as they are all over the place.

2) it is white simple to buy a bunch of quite powerful magnets.

3) it is quite simple to glue a bunch of magnets on a circular surface so that they all point slightly to one side of directly towards the center.

3) It is quite simple to then glue another bunch of magnets onto another device that fits inside the first in such a way that the inside magnets are repulsed by the outside magnets and in a net directing to either left or right.

4) it would then be quite simple to put a generator inside this circle and allow the whole thing to spin on an axis.

If magnets did not run out then we would all be using this method to power our houses and industries and would not be buying power off power companies.

I have not done this because I dont have the time but there are enough perpetual motion enthusiasts and also enough science students that I am absolutley positive that this has been done.

If you are one of the people that has built one of these devices than let us all know how long before that magnets wore out?


Jeff
Nick
QUOTE (hegel7655+Feb 13 2005, 06:24 PM)
they do drain. all magnets used for heavy duty projects, such as lifting cars, are electromagnets meaning that they're constantly supplied with electrons to keep the atoms polarized.

WHY WOULD ELECTRICTY SUSTAIN THE POLORIZIATION OF ATOMS?
barakn
QUOTE (jeffsaunders+May 31 2007, 05:28 AM)
Well lets see if this is true.

I have to say that I have not studied magnetism except in the most general senses.

But I feel that it should be pretty obvious that magnets do wear out.

1) It is quite simple to build an electric generator as they are all over the place.

2) it is white simple to buy a bunch of quite powerful magnets.

3) it is quite simple to glue a bunch of magnets on a circular surface so that they all point slightly to one side of directly towards the center.

3) It is quite simple to then glue another bunch of magnets onto another device that fits inside the first in such a way that the inside magnets are repulsed by the outside magnets and in a net directing to either left or right.

4) it would then be quite simple to put a generator inside this circle and allow the whole thing to spin on an axis.

If magnets did not run out then we would all be using this method to power our houses and industries and would not be buying power off power companies.

I have not done this because I dont have the time but there are enough perpetual motion enthusiasts and also enough science students that I am absolutley positive that this has been done.

If you are one of the people that has built one of these devices than let us all know how long before that magnets wore out?


Jeff

huh.gif Don't you think that if this worked, even if it wore the magnets out, that it would be used as an energy source for portable devices? Instead of replacing batteries, you'd just replace magnets. The fact that such an energy source doesn't exist should have been a big clue that it doesn't work the way you've suggested.

What will happen is that an inner magnet will be repulsed as it approaches an outer magnet, slowing it down, but will then also be repulsed as it passes and moves away from the outer magnet, which would speed it back up. There would be no net gain in speed, and the inner ring would thus slowly spin down due to friction. Pretty boring, but at least it wouldn't wear out your magnets.
jeffsaunders
QUOTE (barakn+May 31 2007, 06:23 AM)
What will happen is that an inner magnet will be repulsed as it approaches an outer magnet, slowing it down, but will then also be repulsed as it passes and moves away from the outer magnet, which would speed it back up. There would be no net gain in speed, and the inner ring would thus slowly spin down due to friction. Pretty boring, but at least it wouldn't wear out your magnets.

I don't think you are correct here. Not in the least. If we have an array of magnets set on the inside of a cylinder and all magnets are pointing off center to the right by a few degrees and all magnets are aligned so that the north pole is facing towards the center then we have a smooth net force in one circular direction.

If you then insert another object inside on a drive shaft that just misses this outer shaft and you have positive poles facing outwards also offset in the opposite direction you will have a potentially permanently accelerating framework.

The fact that something like this is used to accelerate trains on magnetic tracks should tell you that is can be done.

The fact that these magnets on the trains and the tracks are not left to be made of permanent magnets tells us straight out that these magnets are not permanent.

Jeff
Enthalpy
Hi there!
Well, good permanents magnets (NdFeB, SmCo, ferrite) are indeed permanent. Only the very old ones, made of steel, lost their strength.

Sustaining a magnetic field doesn't consume any power. Copper electromagnets do need electric power, but superconducting electromagnets don't. So permanent magnets don't bring continuous power and you can't draw permanent power from them. Yes, it's sad.

Being the inventor of the RFID technology, I hope to have understood a little bit of electromagnetism. But I certainly agree electromagnetism is tricky and not intuitive.
cjameshuff
QUOTE (jeffsaunders+May 31 2007, 04:07 AM)
If you then insert another object inside on a drive shaft that just misses this outer shaft and you have positive poles facing outwards also offset in the opposite direction you will have a potentially permanently accelerating framework.


Such a device will not rotate any longer than a totally non-magnetic flywheel. If you start it turning, it will turn until friction brings it to a stop, with the magnets not being meaningfully weaker. If you don't start it turning, any acceleration the wheel initially experiences will be countered by an opposite acceleration as the relative positions of the magnets changes, and the wheel will wobble back and forth until friction brings it to a stop.


QUOTE (jeffsaunders+May 31 2007, 04:07 AM)
The fact that something like this is used to accelerate trains on magnetic tracks should tell you that is can be done.


The fact that maglev vehicles, even temporary experimental setups or children's toys, don't in fact use anything like this should tell you something.


QUOTE (jeffsaunders+May 31 2007, 04:07 AM)
The fact that these magnets on the trains and the tracks are not left to be made of permanent magnets tells us straight out that these magnets are not permanent.


Well, yes. They're not permanent because permanent magnets don't work at all, not because permanent magnets wear out. They are electromagnets because electromagnets can be switched on and off to propel the train.

And in fact some maglev techniques do use permanent magnets on the vehicle, and coils in the track, either actively powered to propel the vehicle, switching coils in sequence to push the vehicle forward, or passively powered by currents induced by the magnetic fields of the moving vehicle to hold it up. Look up Halbach arrays.

You could extract energy from a magnet by winding a coil around it and heating it to demagnetize it (or simply waiting a few hundred millennia), causing the field to collapse through the coil. The results will prove disappointing, however, as not much energy is actually stored in the magnet.
Eugene
ZetaTalk: Ferromagnetism
Note: written on Apr 15, 1996.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From childhood to adulthood, magnets have fascinated man. Young children are given sets of magnets to play with, linking them end to end. School children are shown, with iron ore dust, just how those invisible magnetic lines reach and curl, preparatory to a lecture about the Earth's magnetic field and on to how to use the compass when lost in the woods. The use of magnets so permeates industrialized human society that one would be hard pressed to find an aspect not affected. Claspless doors are secured with magnets, airplanes fly on automatic based on magnetic alignment, and recyclers separate out metal with magnets, to name but a few. Yet magnetism is not understood by man, though theories abound. It's clear that something flows, but just what is flowing is unknown. It's clear that direction is important, but just what is dictating this direction is unclear. It's clear that magnetism occurs naturally, especially in certain ores such as iron, but what it is that is special about iron ore is a puzzle.

Magnetism is the palpable, measurable effect of a subatomic particle not yet delineated by man. In fact, there are several dozen sub-atomic particles involved, out of the 387 involved in what humans assume to be simply the flow of electrons. Where electric current can be made to flow in any direction, the path of least resistance, magnetic flow seems to be very single minded. In fact, it is also going in the path of least resistance, as can be seen when one understands the path and what constitutes resistance for magnetic flow. Unlike electricity, which only occasionally flows in nature, the flowing sub- atomic particles that constitute a magnetic field are constantly flowing. This is the natural state, to be in motion. The path of least resistance, therefore, is to go with the flow, and the flow is determined by the biggest bully in the vicinity.

A single atom of iron, isolated, will establish the direction of flow based on the tightly orbiting electron particles, of which there are hundreds of sub-types. These tight orbits arrange themselves in a manner not unlike the planets around a sun, but the field, of course, is much more crowded. Given the fairly static number of these particles that will hang around an iron ore nucleus, the orbiting swirl may have a rhythm, rather than a steady hum. Put 3 groups of 3 into a cycle of 10 and you have whomp whomp whomp pause. Should the cycle, based on the nucleus and the electron sub-atomic particles it attracts due to its size and composition, be 4 groups of 3 in a cycle of 12, you would have whomp whomp whomp whomp. The steady hum of the second cycle does not lack a magnetic flow, it is just diffuse. The irregular cycle in the first example finds the magnetic flow escaping during the pause. Being attracted again to the best partner in the vicinity, the single iron atom, the magnetic sub-atomic particles will circle around, taking the path of least resistance which of course is on the other side of the atom from the outward flow.

Placing a second iron atom next to the first finds the two lining up, so the flow escaping during the pause of each goes in the same direction. This is a bit like forcing a second water flow into a flowing stream. Toss a stick into both forceful streams and you will see that the water flows are moving in the same direction as much as possible - the path of least resistance. In this manner the magnetic flow of the largest bully forces all else in the neighborhood to line up. Where the iron ore atoms are caught in an amalgam and not altogether free to shift their positions within the amalgam, the magnetic flow may physically move the amalgam, this being, again, the path of least resistance. For those who would state that magnetism is not a thing, as it can't be weighted or measured or seen, we would point to the child's trick whereby two magnets are held positive end to positive end. Let go and they move so that they are aligned positive end to negative end. What made these magnets move, if not a thing?
LeTUOtter
QUOTE (jeffsaunders+May 31 2007, 08:07 AM)
If you then insert another object inside on a drive shaft that just misses this outer shaft and you have positive poles facing outwards also offset in the opposite direction you will have a potentially permanently accelerating framework.

I'm no physicist, but that just doesn't make sense to me. If you ring the magnets as such, you'll get a net force on the inner wheel either inwards or outwards. Either way, it's opposing the motion needed to spin, and will bring it to a stop just as surely as friction will. I've seen that type of setup before, and the best I saw it do was wiggle slightly.

QUOTE (Precursor562+)
If it did than it would "drain" when applying a force which would mean the magnets (which are poor quality) would fall off the fridge since the force is being applied to work against the force of gravity. That in essence is a form of work. After all, do your arms get tired when in a chin up position but not actually doing any chin ups?

Now thats just a ridiculous analogy. Your arms don't work anything like a magnet, and you certainly don't have friction holding you up. 0 analogy points. dry.gif
Argiod
If you are truely interested in this and related phenomenon, check out the Thomal Bearden web site: http:\\www.cheniere.org

Lt Col Thomas Bearden is a top scientist who worked for the United States government. He has some very interesting things to say about classic physics and the way in which our modern day math has been castrated to hide the very concept of asymetry and the tapping of 'free energy' from the aether. He also explains many puzzling phenomenon as you are inquiring here. Indeed, he refers to the universe as a perpetual motion machine.
mault
Ok, I have one of those little levitation armatures that uses magnets to allow the armature to hover over the base plate (one end resting against a mirror with a needle) now, there is a discrete amount of work required,it is applying a force through a distance to keep the armature just floating there countering gravity. Will it ever fall? Where is the energy keeping the armature floating coming from? How about a similar setup with flex arms against pezio-electric crystals to generate electricity?

Things that make you go hmmmm....
AlexG
QUOTE (Argiod+Aug 2 2007, 12:16 PM)
If you are truely interested in this and related phenomenon, check out the Thomal Bearden web site: http:\\www.cheniere.org

Lt Col Thomas Bearden is a top scientist who worked for the United States government. He has some very interesting things to say about classic physics and the way in which our modern day math has been castrated to hide the very concept of asymetry and the tapping of 'free energy' from the aether. He also explains many puzzling phenomenon as you are inquiring here. Indeed, he refers to the universe as a perpetual motion machine.


From Wikipedia:

QUOTE
Some time in or before 2001, Bearden began to identify himself as "Tom Bearden, Phd"[18], with no affiliation or details. The Skeptical Inquirer, among others, revealed that Bearden purchased his PhD from Trinity College and University, which the magazine describes as "a British institution with no building, campus, faculty, or president, and run from a post office box in Sioux Falls, South Dakota"[]. This institution is not accredited by any recognized accreditation association and is generally regarded as a degree mill. It has since changed its name to Bronte International University and its exact location is uncertain.



Another crackpot.
mault
Actually a collapsing magnetic field has a good deal of energy as is shown with inductive kickback in motors and generators.

Mike
Cusa
There is such a thing as magnetic fall in the magnetosphere. It is working together with gravity freefall.

Mitch Raemsch
Argyll
QUOTE (Cusa+Feb 19 2009, 08:38 PM)
There is such a thing as magnetic fall in the magnetosphere. It is working together with gravity freefall.

Mitch Raemsch

This poster deserves zero credibility when talking about math or physics, as he has proven himself incompetent by his failure to understand even simple concepts like why a rainbow is an arc.
Granouille
Wait a minute, and he'll be saying "Light fell" again... laugh.gif

Nick may have no grasp of physics, but he's got buffoon down pat!
Empress Palpatine
The electrons line up and point in the same direction. As far as I know, they can keep on doing this.

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutori...nets/page2.html

I see this is a very old thread now revived.

I have a magnet out in the garage that clings to a metal shelf. It has been around since I was a kid back in the 1970's. It belonged to this old man I knew then. It has never lost its potency. I will probably be dead in the grave but those electrons will still be pulling.
SteveA2
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Feb 21 2009, 05:12 AM)
The electrons line up and point in the same direction. As far as I know, they can keep on doing this.

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutori...nets/page2.html

I see this is a very old thread now revived.

I have a magnet out in the garage that clings to a metal shelf. It has been around since I was a kid back in the 1970's. It belonged to this old man I knew then. It has never lost its potency. I will probably be dead in the grave but those electrons will still be pulling.

Magnets don't specifically do work in themselves, though they can act to store and release energy, like a battery, but a magnet sitting a distance from a piece of metal isn't actually doing work unless a force and motion is created, so as long the magnetic field is not creating a significant motion due to its magnetic force, it's not releasing any of its potential energy.

If you let a magnet pull a piece of metal, this can do work, such as creating a small amount of heat when it strikes the magnet, but this can't be repeated without putting energy back into the system to separate the magnet from the metal.

Magnets do tend to lose their strength over time though it occurs faster with higher stresses and temperatures. Even the thermal vibrations at room temperature will slowly decay a magnetic field (which can even release some small amounts of energy, though these decay and wouldn't be very useful) and physical shocks and impacts also tend to disalign the atoms, so if you strike a magnet with a hammer it will tend to lose the strength of its field.

There are different magnetic materials with different resistances to temperatures and shock but, of course, none are perfect though many material become close to perfect magnetic materials when they're cooled close to absolute zero (-273 Celsius), though to imbue them with such a field still takes work.

For example a magnetic can be created by heating or physically impacting a magnetic material while a (preferably strong) magnetic field is applied across the material (even the magnetic field of the Earth can do this to a minor extend but an electromagnetic is much better). This causes the atoms to break out of their rather random arrangement and align in parallel with the field. You then allow the material to retain this rigid alignment and it effectively "stores" this magnetic alignment.
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (SteveA2+Feb 21 2009, 02:48 AM)


Magnets do tend to lose their strength over time though it occurs faster with higher stresses and temperatures. Even the thermal vibrations at room temperature will slowly decay a magnetic field (which can even release some small amounts of energy, though these decay and wouldn't be very useful) and physical shocks and impacts also tend to disalign the atoms, so if you strike a magnet with a hammer it will tend to lose the strength of its field.


I got some magnets recently. Does this mean I must be careful not to drop them?
SteveA2
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Feb 21 2009, 07:05 AM)
I got some magnets recently.  Does this mean I must be careful not to drop them?

I don't think dropping them a few times would change their strength noticeably, but it doesn't help.

Here's a short clip from a lecture on demagnetization and he mentions some of the ways demagnetization can occur (heating, shock or an application of a strong magnetic field opposing it). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1boe2b24qQ

You can use similar techniques to make magnets also, though you need a source of a magnetic field and then you stress the material and let it become aligned with the field (but you can't make a magnet stronger than the field is as far as I know).
AlexG
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Feb 21 2009, 02:05 AM)
I got some magnets recently. Does this mean I must be careful not to drop them?

Do be careful not to heat them and hit them. That will damage them.
Quatermass
QUOTE (Empress Palpatine+Feb 21 2009, 05:12 AM)
I have a magnet out in the garage that clings to a metal shelf. It has been around since I was a kid back in the 1970's. It belonged to this old man I knew then. It has never lost its potency. I will probably be dead in the grave but those electrons will still be pulling.

Magnets last longest if in constant use. It keeps them magnetically lined up inside.
buttershug
QUOTE (Quatermass+Feb 24 2009, 12:34 PM)
Magnets last longest if in constant use. It keeps them magnetically lined up inside.

And some magnets come with "keepers" for the very reason.
Empress Palpatine
QUOTE (Quatermass+Feb 24 2009, 08:34 AM)
Magnets last longest if in constant use. It keeps them magnetically lined up inside.

I assume constant use means to have it cling to something? That one in the garage gets forgotten for years, but it is clinging to the metal shelf always.
Granouille
That metal shelf is the 'keeper' in this case. It gives the field an easy path to loop back to the other pole.

Be careful about which type of magnet you drop, though! A low permeability iron magnet can be remagnetized, but a high permeability rare-earth magnet, (like the ones in hard drive head-positioning systems), are very brittle.

And whatever you do, don't feed the troll! laugh.gif
makuabob
QUOTE (SteveA2+Feb 21 2009, 01:48 AM)
...
Magnets do tend to lose their strength over time though it occurs faster with higher stresses and temperatures. ...


Good answers from SteveA2.

I have worked for decades in precision electronic measurement. My career has seen readouts change to numerical displays like Nixie tubes, 7-segment displays, LEDs, plasma, and LCDs. Before these, there was almost nothing but the d'Arsonval movement; the meter movement, a simple 1/4-turn permanent magnet motor. After decades of service, its magnet would show signs of weakening,... a few domains flipped on this measurement, a few on the next...

Now, an important point: these magnets were often re-magnetized because such precise meters were usually hand-made and, thus, very expensive. How was this re-magnetization done? The laminated iron magnet (shaped like a weird capital Omega) was removed from the movement case and connected in an electrical circuit across a (car) battery, through a switch-operated (starter) solenoid. (It's important to understand that a pulse of hundreds of amperes is in the offing.) After bolting the movement's magnet down, you pushed the 'starter' button, and,... Wham! A rejuvenated, re-saturated "permanent" magnet,... unless you bolted it down the wrong way! Then you had a meter that went backward,... until you put it back into the rejuvenator the right way,... and did it again. The value of direct current used in the normal operation of these movements was very low, in the order of fifty-millionths of an ampere, or less. Yet, this was enough to s-l-o-w-l-y break down the alignment of electron orbits (magnetic domains).

If a "keeper" is across the poles of the magnet, it acts like a closed circuit and "keeps" the flux lines localized. Bear in mind that some of the lines of magnetic flux (of a typical 'bar' magnet, for instance) go off into deep space looking to complete their 'loop.' This means magnetic variations in other,... oh, let's say, the Earth's or the Sun's,... magnetic fields can affect that poor little magnet in your room!

So, the magnet clinging to your reefer door is not actually "doing" work; it has achieved stasis. Nothing is changing relative to it and its 'keeper' (A.K.A, "the reefer door"). Keep this important fact in mind: Permanent magnets don't do work. If they do, then they become weaker. If they are weaker, then they are not permanent! It takes work to align the domains of a magnet. If something causes those domains to lose their alignment, some of that work is undone.

Many inventors have tried to draw 'power' from permanent magnets. It cannot be done because the magnets either reach stasis or their fields are becoming weaker. Keep your eye on the hucksters who tell you permanent magnets can be made to produce "free" power! To quote the comic book character, "Only suffering is free, Mister Duck." (All Duck Comix #1)
yor_on
Yep thats close to how I understands it too makuabob. The idea behind it all is the idea of 'work done'. It's not different to putting a object on a table, when you do so gravity still works on that object, but the table becomes a barrier to that 'force'. Neither the table nor that object placed on your table does any work here, they have a 'balance'. But that doesn't stop me from wondering what that kind of 'permanent magnetism' really are. We don't know, do we. We have good definitions for what 'work' is, but how can a permanent magnet have this 'field'?

And what is it, any good links appreciated :)
mault
Still, I go back to the question no one has answered yet. If I hold a 8 ounce weight my muscles are doing work against the force of gravity which is pulling the weight down. Now, if I put a couple of magnets on the weight and suspend it above a set of magnets on the floor so it is hovering, the magnets are doing work holding the weight up against the force of gravity. Why don't the magnets weaken?
rpenner
Muscles do work because muscles are messy biological twich motors which must cycle over and over to stay contracted. Magnets are much more fundamental and have no mechanism other than QED. So by the physics definition of "work" a magnet holding something still does no work.

Lasand
Thanks makuabob, for an interesting little read.

While seemingly against intuition, I can understand that a magnet on a shelf or against a fridge is said to be not doing work.

If I had a magnetometer I would like to do this little experiment.

Purchase two strong permanent magnets of the bar type. Build a fixture or framework to hold three of these bar magnets in a row almost touching. Place the two purchased magnets in the end locations, then place a piece of unmagnetized iron between the two purchased magnets. The permanent magnets should magnetize the iron piece in the center. Remove the center piece that is now magnetized some distance away.

This should qualify as work being done. Would a magnetometer show a reduced field of the two purchased magnets? I'm not sure of the answer without doing the experiment myself.
rpenner
But the human agency also did work by introducing the soft iron and pulling it away.
yor_on
QUOTE (mault+Mar 10 2009, 06:53 PM)
Still, I go back to the question no one has answered yet. If I hold a 8 ounce weight my muscles are doing work against the force of gravity which is pulling the weight down. Now, if I put a couple of magnets on the weight and suspend it above a set of magnets on the floor so it is hovering, the magnets are doing work holding the weight up against the force of gravity. Why don't the magnets weaken?

Not really, you are confusing the concept of 'work' with the concept of my table I think :)
You could see the magnets field lines as 'invisible tables' if you like, and if you do so, just as a table of certain dimensions can hold that eight ounce weight above the floor when you put it there, so will those magnetic field lines be able to hold your weight above the floor. But it seems different as we can't see anything material upholding that mass. That doesn't say that I understand why a permanent magnet has those properties though. Is there an accepted definition to how they can do it?
EMPulse
http://www.physorg.com/news156011642.html
yor_on
EM I'm impressed, we will see if we can use it.
We definitely need some creative and 'alogical' thinking:)

I'll give you a example on what I mean. There was this school where you had first graders.
Their lockers was built om height though, that meant that they could only open that first locker on the bottom of the 'stack'. So they were lucky enough to have a 'alogical' janitor. He just put those lockers on their side and, voila, it just worked:)
LOTR
I can clear this up with a workable model of what forces are at play.
However your going to find it unbelievable.

lets just imagine the photon as traveling an infinite path.
User posted image: User posted image
keep in mind the photon is directly entangled with the mass at the sub atomic level. each little particle of mass will have a single photon entangled to it. A great amount of mass will have a plethora of photons entangled to it. Yes the photon is as anti matter in this model it is entangled to mass but unaffected by it. In this model all mass is magnetism only varying by density. In short the photon can travel through mass without loss. In fact there are gains.

A single magnet exhibits duality with polar orientation N and S N|S with a flux component between the fields where opposites attract. There is NO singularity everything is duality or rather polar. the photon is no different it has a N|S configuration also sharing opposite attraction and same poles repulsion.
User posted image: User posted image

this is the reason for this type of observation of stacking of magnets and coils.

User posted image: User posted image

The photon spins and flips to accommodate it's polar situation and direction of travel as it travels through the stacked segments and subsequent flux regions.

User posted image: User posted image

12 stacked magnets are under the magnetic reactive film.

The photon as it exits the flux region unable to reach escape velocity due to entanglement. the photon flips and returns to the flux region being realigned via polar arrangement and the fact that opposite poles attract and same repulse.

this can be easily observed as magnets flip and stack if aligned likewise poles. the path of a plethora of photons doing this infinite dance. is what creates the loop like fields we observe at the ends of stacked magnets.

Believe it or not. I don't care it's the natural order of things with laws and principles laid out by natural physics.



makuabob
QUOTE (LOTR+Mar 16 2009, 11:42 AM)

However your going to find it unbelievable.
You're right on that point.
QUOTE
lets just imagine the photon as traveling an infinite path.
Let's not. A line of magnetic flux is a closed loop.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
lets just imagine the photon as traveling an infinite path.
Let's not. A line of magnetic flux is a closed loop.
A single magnet exhibits duality
No. A magnet is one field of flux lines. It has two poles which humans, by some convention, have named North & South. It is the same field of flux, one field of flux lines.
QUOTE
...it's the natural order of things with laws and principles laid out by natural physics.

"Natural physics" is, as yet, incomplete. Magnetism and gravity are two pieces of as-yet-unexplained 'magic' in this universe which we inhabit. We know lots about the effects of the two but have yet to fathom their true origins.

As to the 'original' question of permanent magnets doing work, once stasis is achieved—and no work further work is input into the system (i. e., moving the magnet away from or closer to whatever it has engaged ALL of its lines of flux with)—the magnet does no 'work,' per se.

If the allegorical "table" (mentioned earlier) is used, the assumption is that it is perfectly rigid. A table of wood or plastic may sag with time due to gravity. In a similar manner, a magnet can lose strength (flux lines) if some of those lines are not engaged locally. A pair of (binary) stars merging to become a black hole might 'eat' one of those stray lines of flux and flip a domain in said magnet. While the speed of progogation of electromagnetic energy (i. e., photons, the carrier of the electromagnetic force) is limited to c, that does not apply to lines of magnetic flux. They were already in existence, magnetizing a piece of material merely aligned them into a common orientation. The magnetic 'loop' already "is" so propogation is moot.

There is a similar conundrum in gravity: Einstein limits gravitational "waves" to the speed of light in a vacuum (Burkhard Heim assigned them a speed of propogation of 4/3c). However, does the gravitational field propogate?... Or, is it simply there? In The Speed of Gravity—What the Experiments Say by Tom Van Flandern, it is argued that gravity itself, IF it propogates, expresses itself at a speed well above that of c. Questions like this one are the mind-benders.
Alaxir Zoa
Ok. Look at it this way. If magnets didn't run out or use any power, we would have had perpetual motion a long time ago, and it wouldn't be very complicated. So if nothing else, that. I don't know why this subject has gotten to be so long. It's really simple. wink.gif
nekotieenenii
Ok.so maybe I don't have as much time on my hands as those of you who can watch a fridge magnet until it falls off....and my injecture just being a whimsical guess.... think of the fridge as the Borg and it eventually consumes all of the magnetic properties of the magnet till it falls to the floor....
nekotieenenii
Ah, don't be silly....perpetual motion has been all arounds us as an eternal energy since the beginning of time... It's part of everything that exists....it's what I call the God effect..the misunderstood meaning of life. ....yes it can be harnessed. .yes it has been harnessed. ..and yes it is being harnessed....
Marwaduran
Check your high-school physics textbook: a magnetic field does not perform work. ie F * v = 0. Therefore a magnet is not "using up" energy and thus does not need to be "replenished"
CrazyJesse
QUOTE
Check your high-school physics textbook: a magnetic field does not perform work. ie F * v = 0. Therefore a magnet is not "using up" energy and thus does not need to be "replenished".


If Brans-Dicke theory gets a make-over and a turbo-charger, the Maxwell equations are descriptions of over-pinnings.

Turbo Chargers. laugh.gif laugh.gif

Thank you, fellow turbo-chargers.

Posting is a pleasure.
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.