What is with the rising gas prices. The only thing I can think of is that the prices are being allowed to increase so that the new hydrogen and renewable alternatives can become more competitive. They are too expanesve now but if the price goes high enough, it will be profitable to draw in big business. This competition will eventually make everything cheaper allowing the price of all energy to drop. I hope market forces work faster than slower.
What ever happened to converting coal into gas. The German's during WWII already had this technology and USA has plenty of coal. Back in grad school days, I was part of some energy research at ORNL that used extrusion technology to liquify coal. The solid coal generates the electricity for extrusion, you then catalylse the liquid, strip the sulfur etc, gradually recycle the clean fuel for electricity, then moth ball the old coal plant. The extra output becomes cheap fuel. Environmental paranoia or conspiricy squashing a very cheap alternative that should be online by now.
I think, at least part of the reason gas prices are going so high is that (at least when it comes to driving) that its the summer and vaction time. Many familys have vactions in the car, plus RVing has been a really big thing for the last few years ( at least in Canada its growing, not sure about elsewhere). Vacations are a time to spend money, so expensive gas isn't going to stop people, and if there is profit to be made, people want to make it.
As far as I know the Oil companies are fighting hydrogen and other energy sources. I know the oil companies don't want car companies to stop using internal combustion engines, at least not yet.
MDT, is converting coal to gas really cheaper than getting gas from crude? My guess (although uneducated on this subject) is that the coal to gas is very expensive!!
As far as I know the Oil companies are fighting hydrogen and other energy sources. I know the oil companies don't want car companies to stop using internal combustion engines, at least not yet.
MDT, is converting coal to gas really cheaper than getting gas from crude? My guess (although uneducated on this subject) is that the coal to gas is very expensive!!
coal to gas =$5.00 a gallon gas cleaner but not worth it at this time. prices are high due to iraq, adead king in saudi arabia and our lack of conservation!!
The way I see it coal conversion techonlogy has been around for at least 60-70 years. Its too bad that it wasn't allowed to go through all the technology growing pains since that time. Gas from coal wasn't given a good second look until it became a little too late; by the time social perception and environmental standards had changed.
It sort of analogous to the third and fourth world countries. For them to get industry implies that they are required to jump from the stone age directly into the year 2005. They are not allowed to follow the natural learning curve of mistakes that western culture enjoyed; labor intensive, water power, to steam, to electricity, labor unions, to polution ,to electronics, to robots, to environmental concern and conservation, while being able to buy political influence all along the way. The third world countries, like coal, loss all the luxury of ignorance and social acceptance which buffered the slowly evolving innovation within our culture. The loss of that bridge of innovation continuiity, between past and present, definitely makes that jump risky and therefore calculated to be much more expensive; not worth trying under the current political and social climate unless everyone is willing to pay $5/gallon. That is the starting price, but innovation would make it get cheaper with time.
It sort of analogous to the third and fourth world countries. For them to get industry implies that they are required to jump from the stone age directly into the year 2005. They are not allowed to follow the natural learning curve of mistakes that western culture enjoyed; labor intensive, water power, to steam, to electricity, labor unions, to polution ,to electronics, to robots, to environmental concern and conservation, while being able to buy political influence all along the way. The third world countries, like coal, loss all the luxury of ignorance and social acceptance which buffered the slowly evolving innovation within our culture. The loss of that bridge of innovation continuiity, between past and present, definitely makes that jump risky and therefore calculated to be much more expensive; not worth trying under the current political and social climate unless everyone is willing to pay $5/gallon. That is the starting price, but innovation would make it get cheaper with time.
We have plenty of oil. Supply is not the problem, production is.
We simply do not have enough refineries to meet demand. Add to the fact the negative reaction of environmentalists when old refiners are retrofitted. Building new refinery would be incredibly costly due to over-regulation of the EPA not to mention the predictable uninformed outrage of the environmentalists.
Add to this the inability to move gas between regions due to local gasoline blends regulations. Remember last year’s hurricanes in Florida? Governor Bush announce the he would temporarily remove the mandate of blended gas to allow the import of gas from other locals in order to meet needs.
Even a visiting Saudi Prince commented about the lack of production within the U.S.
Just one of many stories commenting on this issue:
We simply do not have enough refineries to meet demand. Add to the fact the negative reaction of environmentalists when old refiners are retrofitted. Building new refinery would be incredibly costly due to over-regulation of the EPA not to mention the predictable uninformed outrage of the environmentalists.
Add to this the inability to move gas between regions due to local gasoline blends regulations. Remember last year’s hurricanes in Florida? Governor Bush announce the he would temporarily remove the mandate of blended gas to allow the import of gas from other locals in order to meet needs.
Even a visiting Saudi Prince commented about the lack of production within the U.S.
Just one of many stories commenting on this issue:
QUOTE
http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=4268274
“A lack of pumping capacity is not the only supply-side problem. Once crude is taken from the ground, it must be refined into petrol, heating fuel and so on. But thanks in part to opposition by consumer groups to installations in their back yard, especially in America, not enough new refineries have been built to meet growing demand. Refiners have so far coped by improving refining technology, but tight capacity leaves the system vulnerable to price spikes when bottlenecks appear.“
“A lack of pumping capacity is not the only supply-side problem. Once crude is taken from the ground, it must be refined into petrol, heating fuel and so on. But thanks in part to opposition by consumer groups to installations in their back yard, especially in America, not enough new refineries have been built to meet growing demand. Refiners have so far coped by improving refining technology, but tight capacity leaves the system vulnerable to price spikes when bottlenecks appear.“
Just "liberate" another Oil producing country, and you have another oil source to drain from.
Luckily, with the current known supply, and at the current projected use, In 14 years, there will no longer be any oil to use. So, I guess in 25 years, the oil problem will be no more, because there will be no oil anymore.
Luckily, with the current known supply, and at the current projected use, In 14 years, there will no longer be any oil to use. So, I guess in 25 years, the oil problem will be no more, because there will be no oil anymore.
QUOTE
Luckily, with the current known supply, and at the current projected use, In 14 years, there will no longer be any oil to use. So, I guess in 25 years, the oil problem will be no more, because there will be no oil anymore.
Where did those figures come from?
There is great debate about just how much usable oil is available using current technologies, but the amount left is estimated in gigatonnes. Current estimates range from 500 gigatonnes on the conservative side to 850 gigatonnes. That is much more than a 25 year supply.
From what I have read, a problem is in locating oil deposits that can be cheaply extracted. For instance, a significant percentage of the available oil is either mixed with sand or too viscous. Another issue is that a good percentage of it is in small deposits. It simply isn't cost effective, for example, to build and maintain an offshore rig unless it will have a healthy payout. There is still plenty of oil left, but output will continue to dwindle. Some countries could easily cut their energy consumption.
I don't see oil companies feeling bad about enough about the high gas prices to try to do anything about it. Think?
I don't see oil companies feeling bad about enough about the high gas prices to try to do anything about it. Think?
The price of gasoline is in line with oil futures. Anything you can imagine occuring in the world that would lead an investor to buy oil, no matter how speculative or short term, will lead to higher prices. Oil is a limited resource, but current prices don't have to reflect the reality of the current situation.
one thing people seem to miss..
the good oil is on top and used first.. it gets more and more expensive to refine..
gas companys are making record profits yet no refineries have been made in years
2 years ago after begging the saudis for relief, they released 500 million barrels of oil... problem was it was high sulfer sludge.. if anwar is already giving sludge we are all in trouble,
all the opec producing nations "fudged" there reserves to try to get the largest percentage of te opec quoto they could. There is no outside verfication of reserves.
a big sign of being over the top to peak oil.. is gas price volatility (ie rise on every bit of news, hurricane etc)
last week we had 12 refineries go down....
the reason we dont build new ones.. isnt expense...it is the likelyhood of profit.
if it takes 20 years to pay off cost of building a refinery and oil will only last 14 years(just used as an example)..
when a field starts to get low on oil.. they have to pump in water or something to get the rest of the oil out, because of laws of pressure.. when you pump in water .. you get out mostly water.. so you have to pump in millions of gallons of water to get 100,000 gallons of oil.
there are tar sands and shae that is too expesive to extract the oil from..
all countries oil demand goes up yearly
most of the people screaming the loudest about oil running out are former geologiest for the oil industry.
Fuel only accounts for 50% of oil use
products like plastics, fertilizers, pesticides make up the other 50%
for every calorie of food grown we burn 9 cals of oil.
sure we may have oil for another 50 but it gets thicker and harder to remove, more expensive to refine.
DONT BUY THE LACK OF REFINERIES>> IT IS JUST POLITICAL SPIN. and as for cost especially due to enviromentalism.. the bush admin proves tht it will do what it takes inspite of the enviroment.)look at the wall arround sandiego.. pulling out of the kyoto, easing enviro restrictions.. etc). GAs companies make so much you dont have to sign for credit card purchaces(they pay more for that privealedge). They are making record profits and just got billions in tax breaks and incentives. gas stations get upgrades all the time.. one near my house has tv's in the pumps to advert at you.. If it could make them money... IT WOULD BE BUILT
the good oil is on top and used first.. it gets more and more expensive to refine..
gas companys are making record profits yet no refineries have been made in years
2 years ago after begging the saudis for relief, they released 500 million barrels of oil... problem was it was high sulfer sludge.. if anwar is already giving sludge we are all in trouble,
all the opec producing nations "fudged" there reserves to try to get the largest percentage of te opec quoto they could. There is no outside verfication of reserves.
a big sign of being over the top to peak oil.. is gas price volatility (ie rise on every bit of news, hurricane etc)
last week we had 12 refineries go down....
the reason we dont build new ones.. isnt expense...it is the likelyhood of profit.
if it takes 20 years to pay off cost of building a refinery and oil will only last 14 years(just used as an example)..
when a field starts to get low on oil.. they have to pump in water or something to get the rest of the oil out, because of laws of pressure.. when you pump in water .. you get out mostly water.. so you have to pump in millions of gallons of water to get 100,000 gallons of oil.
there are tar sands and shae that is too expesive to extract the oil from..
all countries oil demand goes up yearly
most of the people screaming the loudest about oil running out are former geologiest for the oil industry.
Fuel only accounts for 50% of oil use
products like plastics, fertilizers, pesticides make up the other 50%
for every calorie of food grown we burn 9 cals of oil.
sure we may have oil for another 50 but it gets thicker and harder to remove, more expensive to refine.
DONT BUY THE LACK OF REFINERIES>> IT IS JUST POLITICAL SPIN. and as for cost especially due to enviromentalism.. the bush admin proves tht it will do what it takes inspite of the enviroment.)look at the wall arround sandiego.. pulling out of the kyoto, easing enviro restrictions.. etc). GAs companies make so much you dont have to sign for credit card purchaces(they pay more for that privealedge). They are making record profits and just got billions in tax breaks and incentives. gas stations get upgrades all the time.. one near my house has tv's in the pumps to advert at you.. If it could make them money... IT WOULD BE BUILT
QUOTE (GeneSplicer+Aug 16 2005, 12:35 PM)
QUOTE
Luckily, with the current known supply, and at the current projected use, In 14 years, there will no longer be any oil to use. So, I guess in 25 years, the oil problem will be no more, because there will be no oil anymore.
Where did those figures come from?
There is great debate about just how much usable oil is available using current technologies, but the amount left is estimated in gigatonnes. Current estimates range from 500 gigatonnes on the conservative side to 850 gigatonnes. That is much more than a 25 year supply.
I read it in the MEED (Middle East Economic Digest) a few years ago.
Their numbers were already calculating with the estimated resources of the Sakhalin and Sakhalin II development that are to go online coming year and also the estimates of the Petrobras Field development for P50, P51, P52, P53, P54 Platforms out by Brazil. that are also planned to be finished this decade.
I do not think they included the Transneft (Privolzhsknefteprovod) expansion and the Prirazlomnoye expansions in Russia. Also they had no figures for the Sudan development, but since most of the Oil from Sudan (+/-90%) goes to China, it is hard to make an estimate.
QUOTE
DONT BUY THE LACK OF REFINERIES>> IT IS JUST POLITICAL SPIN. and as for cost especially due to enviromentalism..
Have any facts to back that claim up? According to the market itself, refineries are a huge factor. But I’m sure they are all just lying.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| DONT BUY THE LACK OF REFINERIES>> IT IS JUST POLITICAL SPIN. and as for cost especially due to enviromentalism.. |
Have any facts to back that claim up? According to the market itself, refineries are a huge factor. But I’m sure they are all just lying.
the bush admin proves tht it will do what it takes inspite of the enviroment.) look at the wall arround sandiego.. pulling out of the kyoto, easing enviro restrictions.. etc…
Spoken like one of the cited environmentalists.
Articles like this one tend to disagree with your claims that environmental issues do not impact refineries or is just “political spin”.
QUOTE
http://www.enn.com/today.html?id=7992
Environmental News Network
Alleged Clean Air Violations to Cost Oil Refineries Nearly $1 Billion in New Pollution Controls
June 17, 2005 — By John Heilprin, Associated Press
WASHINGTON — Four companies -- Valero, Sunoco, Tesoro and Suncor Energy -- will install nearly $1 billion in new pollution controls at 18 oil refineries in settlements with the government and seven states over alleged violations of clean air laws.
Valero and Sunoco, responsible for most of the improvements, also will pay fines totaling $8.5 million. The refineries covered in consent decrees filed Thursday in federal courts in Texas and Pennsylvania represent about 15 percent of the nation's refining capacity.
Valero, based in San Antonio, estimates it will cost more than $700 million to install smokestack scrubbers and chemical additives at 13 refineries in six states. That includes $5 million to $6 million that Suncor Energy of Calgary, Alberta, will spend on a former Valero refinery in Denver, Valero spokeswoman Mary Rose Brown said. Tesoro, also based in San Antonio, will spend an unspecified amount to clean up a former Valero refinery in Martinez, Calif.
"We really do believe we are in compliance with the Clean Air Act. Most of these infractions occurred before Valero ever owned or operated these facilities," Brown said.
Environmental News Network
Alleged Clean Air Violations to Cost Oil Refineries Nearly $1 Billion in New Pollution Controls
June 17, 2005 — By John Heilprin, Associated Press
WASHINGTON — Four companies -- Valero, Sunoco, Tesoro and Suncor Energy -- will install nearly $1 billion in new pollution controls at 18 oil refineries in settlements with the government and seven states over alleged violations of clean air laws.
Valero and Sunoco, responsible for most of the improvements, also will pay fines totaling $8.5 million. The refineries covered in consent decrees filed Thursday in federal courts in Texas and Pennsylvania represent about 15 percent of the nation's refining capacity.
Valero, based in San Antonio, estimates it will cost more than $700 million to install smokestack scrubbers and chemical additives at 13 refineries in six states. That includes $5 million to $6 million that Suncor Energy of Calgary, Alberta, will spend on a former Valero refinery in Denver, Valero spokeswoman Mary Rose Brown said. Tesoro, also based in San Antonio, will spend an unspecified amount to clean up a former Valero refinery in Martinez, Calif.
"We really do believe we are in compliance with the Clean Air Act. Most of these infractions occurred before Valero ever owned or operated these facilities," Brown said.
And as far as what I said earlier about refineries needing to be replaced or upgraded:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| http://www.enn.com/today.html?id=7992 Environmental News Network Alleged Clean Air Violations to Cost Oil Refineries Nearly $1 Billion in New Pollution Controls June 17, 2005 — By John Heilprin, Associated Press WASHINGTON — Four companies -- Valero, Sunoco, Tesoro and Suncor Energy -- will install nearly $1 billion in new pollution controls at 18 oil refineries in settlements with the government and seven states over alleged violations of clean air laws. Valero and Sunoco, responsible for most of the improvements, also will pay fines totaling $8.5 million. The refineries covered in consent decrees filed Thursday in federal courts in Texas and Pennsylvania represent about 15 percent of the nation's refining capacity. Valero, based in San Antonio, estimates it will cost more than $700 million to install smokestack scrubbers and chemical additives at 13 refineries in six states. That includes $5 million to $6 million that Suncor Energy of Calgary, Alberta, will spend on a former Valero refinery in Denver, Valero spokeswoman Mary Rose Brown said. Tesoro, also based in San Antonio, will spend an unspecified amount to clean up a former Valero refinery in Martinez, Calif. "We really do believe we are in compliance with the Clean Air Act. Most of these infractions occurred before Valero ever owned or operated these facilities," Brown said. |
And as far as what I said earlier about refineries needing to be replaced or upgraded:
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050814/1/3u835.html
Pressures on ageing US refineries fuel world oil price rise
Every scrape and bang in a US refinery is jolting world oil markets as the price of a barrel of crude shoots up toward 70 dollars and more.
While Middle East tensions and huge demand from China and India are a major concern for markets, a series of accidents at hard-pressed US refineries have fuelled fears of shortages at the pump for drivers in America and Europe in the near future.
Oil facilities in the United States, where there has been no major investment for more than a quarter of a century, are working flat out to meet growing demand.
From 70 percent 10 years ago, the Department of Energy said this week that refineries were working at more than 95 percent of capacity. And experts said there is little room for improvement which is why even small incidents can affect oil prices.
Cite your sources other than Greenpeace propaganda.
Exxon made $21bn in 03 and $25bn in 04. It will likely be more this year. A refinery costs an estimated 2-4bn. In three years (03-05) Exxon will have made approximately $75bn. 4bn/75bnX100=5%. Exxon would have had to spend 5% of their profit over that time to build a new refinery (2.5% at the lower cost estimate for a refinery).
It's nice to have someone to blame (those darn environmentalists).
It's nice to have someone to blame (those darn environmentalists).
QUOTE (Christopher Johnson+Sep 7 2005, 04:37 PM)
Exxon would have had to spend 5% of their profit over that time to build a new refinery (2.5% at the lower cost estimate for a refinery).
Neither Exxon nor any company will invest in a refinery if there is not a positive payback. Nor should we ask them to. The growth of our economy depends on prudent investments.
And for those complaining about high prices, well, high prices lead both to greater conservation and more exploration etc. In fact, the worst thing that could happen would be some ham-fisted government attempt to cap prices. Let the market work.
Neither Exxon nor any company will invest in a refinery if there is not a positive payback. Nor should we ask them to. The growth of our economy depends on prudent investments.
And for those complaining about high prices, well, high prices lead both to greater conservation and more exploration etc. In fact, the worst thing that could happen would be some ham-fisted government attempt to cap prices. Let the market work.
I certainly don't see what the problem is, here.
It should be a goal of some people in society, to declare open season on the people who own oil companies, that they can be hunted in the Fall.
These catches would serve as a good source of food, provided that they are caught, according to proper hunting rules.
It should be a goal of some people in society, to declare open season on the people who own oil companies, that they can be hunted in the Fall.
These catches would serve as a good source of food, provided that they are caught, according to proper hunting rules.
Petrol and Diesel are up to £5 a gallon at some garages in England. That about $10 I think as I'm not sure what the exchange rate is. All the garages have had to put in electronic sighs as their old ones wouldn't go over a pound. 
80% of the price is tax and we still have road tax on our cars.
Fuel strikes look likely and the government wont lower the tax. To top it off the hole economy is relying on debt to continua ruining and this might just send it over the edge. Briton a good example of how not to mange a country.
One thing i will tell you is that Russia will not run out of oil EVER. It knows the secret of how to get it.
Now i will sit back and watch everyone run out of petrol. It will make a change not to have crowded roads for my bike.
80% of the price is tax and we still have road tax on our cars.
Fuel strikes look likely and the government wont lower the tax. To top it off the hole economy is relying on debt to continua ruining and this might just send it over the edge. Briton a good example of how not to mange a country.
One thing i will tell you is that Russia will not run out of oil EVER. It knows the secret of how to get it.
Now i will sit back and watch everyone run out of petrol. It will make a change not to have crowded roads for my bike.
Here we go, the TRUE reason for increasing gas prices is the simple fact that the oil companies are greedy as hell!!! The average cost per barrel is up but not to the extent that would justify 3.00 per gallon. The truth of the matter is the fact that an increase of refinery costs (125% - 210%) is the real factor. My largest question is this, are the employees of these refineries seeing any of this increased cost of operation. My thought is "highly doubtful". When the worlds largest oil companies post profits in the BILLIONS of dollars while the average joe is bustin his butt just to throw it in the gas tank instead of the bank, we have a serious problem. America is known for the free enterprise system, but financial murder is still murder, and that is what the oil companies are doing to us. Please help by boycotting all Exxon and Mobil gas stations until the cost of gas returns to 1.50 not 2 but 1.50 per gallon. When they start seeing their revenue drop they will do what they have to do to bring the customers back in.
American and Proud yet sad as hell to see the downhill direction this country is heading. We all need to remember that this is a government designed to be Of The People, By The People, and For The People. Let us remember this and never let that die. Lets remember the roots that this country was founded on and make our founding fathers proud of the progress we need to make in order to be a truly prosperous and free nation once again.
God Bless the USA
Demon
American and Proud yet sad as hell to see the downhill direction this country is heading. We all need to remember that this is a government designed to be Of The People, By The People, and For The People. Let us remember this and never let that die. Lets remember the roots that this country was founded on and make our founding fathers proud of the progress we need to make in order to be a truly prosperous and free nation once again.
God Bless the USA
Demon
Luckily, with the current known supply, and at the current projected use, In 14 years, there will no longer be any oil to use. So, I guess in 25 years, the oil problem will be no more, because there will be no oil anymore.[QUOTE]
It's amusingto hear the nonsense that people believe about subjects they obviously know nothing about. The fact is that the problem right now isn't that we are running out of oil - the oil supply will last for many more decades. The problem is that we are using oil FASTER THAN WE CAN PUMP IT OUT OF THE GROUND. That means there is a supply shortage. Thanks to the gas guzzling SUVs and monster trucks this country's drivers have been buying in large quantities , and the failure of Clinton to open up ANWAR years ago, and now the prices reflect demand. Want to lower the price ? Drive less, stupid. Drive a smaller car, stupid. Batch your road errands.
It's amusingto hear the nonsense that people believe about subjects they obviously know nothing about. The fact is that the problem right now isn't that we are running out of oil - the oil supply will last for many more decades. The problem is that we are using oil FASTER THAN WE CAN PUMP IT OUT OF THE GROUND. That means there is a supply shortage. Thanks to the gas guzzling SUVs and monster trucks this country's drivers have been buying in large quantities , and the failure of Clinton to open up ANWAR years ago, and now the prices reflect demand. Want to lower the price ? Drive less, stupid. Drive a smaller car, stupid. Batch your road errands.
I tell you what....My family and I have been conserving fuel as much as possible. We have kept track of dollars and cents as well. In the last month, we have saved $200 +. This by not making any unnecessary trips and staying home on the weekends, also mapping out our errands for a strait shot. Could you imagine if 50% of Americans would do this how much energy and $$$ we could save?
nevermind
edited so I won't get another warning
edited so I won't get another warning
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