However, most claim to know God through the scriptures.
John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The word hieroglyph means sacred writings, (writing the words of God). The Greco-Romans thought that Egyptian hieroglyphs were allegorical, magical and contained secret mystical knowledge. Is this where the idea that the scriptures were directly from God originated?
QUOTE
Formal religious practice centered on the pharaoh, the king of Egypt. Although he was a human, the pharaoh was believed to be descended from the gods. He acted as the intermediary between his people and the gods, and was obligated to sustain the gods through rituals and offerings so that they could maintain order in the universe. Another important aspect of the religion was the belief in the afterlife and funerary practices.
Sounds familiar, eh?
Is the purpose of the first commandment to be aware that God exists, influences all events in the world, and that the goal of the redemption from Egypt was to become God’s servant?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Formal religious practice centered on the pharaoh, the king of Egypt. Although he was a human, the pharaoh was believed to be descended from the gods. He acted as the intermediary between his people and the gods, and was obligated to sustain the gods through rituals and offerings so that they could maintain order in the universe. Another important aspect of the religion was the belief in the afterlife and funerary practices. |
Sounds familiar, eh?
Is the purpose of the first commandment to be aware that God exists, influences all events in the world, and that the goal of the redemption from Egypt was to become God’s servant?
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
This part “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me” is this a generational curse?
Here's the deal. I genuinely have no desire whatsoever to post on this forum anymore. However, I was contacted via PM and specifically asked by a forum member to comment on this thread, so, simply out of courtesy towards the member who asked me to comment, I will comment briefly and then spend my time more wisely elsewhere.
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+)
However, most claim to know God through the scriptures.
John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
As I've plainly stated numerous times here in the past, from my perspective, the main purpose of "the book of the Lord" or the scriptures is to bring one into direct contact with "the Lord of the book". In other words, although I personally hold the scriptures in very high esteem, to a large degree, they are merely a means to an end and not the end themselves. Jesus put it this way when speaking to the hypocritical religious leaders of His day:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:39-47)
There's no eternal life to be found in the scriptures UNLESS they point one to the One Who is the Author of Life itself, namely Jesus Christ. In the specific case of the religious Jews to whom Jesus was speaking, they clung tenaciously to the law of Moses and their traditions and theirs was merely an OUTWARD religion. In other words, their focus was on outward washings and outward appearances while, INWARDLY, they had no genuine desire for God and no genuine concern for their fellow man. The law that they clung to was to have a twofold purpose:
1. To bring the knowledge of sin.
2. To be their schoolmaster or tutor to point them to Christ that they might not only be forgiven of their past sins, but also given a new inward nature, via the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which would enable them to truly live a life of love towards God and their fellow man.
Unfortunately, they struck out on just two pitches, so to speak. Rather than seeing the law as a means to expose their sin, they actually thought that through their outward attempts to keep it, they were somehow righteous. In actuality, they were SELF-righteous...to the point where they saw no genuine need for a Messiah or Christ to save them. Along these lines, I might borrow the words of the OP and ask:
"Does this sound familiar?"
As far as I'm concerned and I couldn't care less who this offends, you're a bunch of self-righteous folks yourselves, even though you'll only accuse me of being the same (you people are so backwards that you don't even understand what SELF-righteousness really is). In fact, you remind me exactly of the ones to whom Jesus was speaking here in that you seek "honour one of another, and seek not the honour that comes from God only".
John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
As I've plainly stated numerous times here in the past, from my perspective, the main purpose of "the book of the Lord" or the scriptures is to bring one into direct contact with "the Lord of the book". In other words, although I personally hold the scriptures in very high esteem, to a large degree, they are merely a means to an end and not the end themselves. Jesus put it this way when speaking to the hypocritical religious leaders of His day:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:39-47)
There's no eternal life to be found in the scriptures UNLESS they point one to the One Who is the Author of Life itself, namely Jesus Christ. In the specific case of the religious Jews to whom Jesus was speaking, they clung tenaciously to the law of Moses and their traditions and theirs was merely an OUTWARD religion. In other words, their focus was on outward washings and outward appearances while, INWARDLY, they had no genuine desire for God and no genuine concern for their fellow man. The law that they clung to was to have a twofold purpose:
1. To bring the knowledge of sin.
2. To be their schoolmaster or tutor to point them to Christ that they might not only be forgiven of their past sins, but also given a new inward nature, via the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which would enable them to truly live a life of love towards God and their fellow man.
Unfortunately, they struck out on just two pitches, so to speak. Rather than seeing the law as a means to expose their sin, they actually thought that through their outward attempts to keep it, they were somehow righteous. In actuality, they were SELF-righteous...to the point where they saw no genuine need for a Messiah or Christ to save them. Along these lines, I might borrow the words of the OP and ask:
"Does this sound familiar?"
As far as I'm concerned and I couldn't care less who this offends, you're a bunch of self-righteous folks yourselves, even though you'll only accuse me of being the same (you people are so backwards that you don't even understand what SELF-righteousness really is). In fact, you remind me exactly of the ones to whom Jesus was speaking here in that you seek "honour one of another, and seek not the honour that comes from God only".
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+)
The word hieroglyph means sacred writings, (writing the words of God). The Greco-Romans thought that Egyptian hieroglyphs were allegorical, magical and contained secret mystical knowledge. Is this where the idea that the scriptures were directly from God originated?
It almost sounds as if you're/they're suggesting that the hieroglyphs had some sort of "magical power" of their own. I'm certainly no authority on "Egyptian hieroglyphs" or "Greco-Roman thoughts", so I'll just simply say the following in relation to what I do know about the claims regarding the scriptures or the Bible:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)
No "private interpretation" means that these men didn't decide what to write on their own, but rather that they wrote as they were "moved" or inspired by the Holy Ghost. Rather than argue the scriptures with any of you anymore, I'll simply say, once again, that their primary purpose is to help lead one into direct contact with the One of Whom the book is actually written.
"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me), to do thy will, O God." (Hebrews 10:7 quoting from Psalm 40:6-8)
"In the volume of the book" it is written of JESUS CHRIST. In my almost 6 years posting on this forum, with all of the attacks on the scriptures (due to your own collective ignorance) that I witnessed, rarely did anyone want or seek to discuss JESUS CHRIST, the One of Whom the entire book testifies. Your loss...although there's still time to genuinely repent.
It almost sounds as if you're/they're suggesting that the hieroglyphs had some sort of "magical power" of their own. I'm certainly no authority on "Egyptian hieroglyphs" or "Greco-Roman thoughts", so I'll just simply say the following in relation to what I do know about the claims regarding the scriptures or the Bible:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)
No "private interpretation" means that these men didn't decide what to write on their own, but rather that they wrote as they were "moved" or inspired by the Holy Ghost. Rather than argue the scriptures with any of you anymore, I'll simply say, once again, that their primary purpose is to help lead one into direct contact with the One of Whom the book is actually written.
"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me), to do thy will, O God." (Hebrews 10:7 quoting from Psalm 40:6-8)
"In the volume of the book" it is written of JESUS CHRIST. In my almost 6 years posting on this forum, with all of the attacks on the scriptures (due to your own collective ignorance) that I witnessed, rarely did anyone want or seek to discuss JESUS CHRIST, the One of Whom the entire book testifies. Your loss...although there's still time to genuinely repent.
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+)
Is the purpose of the first commandment to be aware that God exists, influences all events in the world, and that the goal of the redemption from Egypt was to become God’s servant?
Again, no "commandments" or written or spoken words can make one "aware that God exists" in and of themselves. Put this "commandment" in its proper context. The people to whom it was originally given had not only ALREADY seen plenty in regards to God's existence, but they also heard His very voice from heaven. In other words, don't put the proverbial cart before the horse. The "commandment" wasn't meant to make them "aware that God exists", but merely a reminder that He does exist and that if they willfully chose to go after "other gods", such as the "other gods" of Egypt against whom God actually pronounced His plagues...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt
The Ten Plagues of Egypt, also referred to as the Ten Plagues (Hebrew: עשר המכות, Eser Ha-Makot), the Plagues of Egypt (Hebrew: מכות מצרים, Makot Mitzrayim), or the Biblical Plagues, are the ten calamities imposed upon Egypt by Yahweh as recounted in the Book of Exodus, Chapters 7–12, to convince Pharaoh to let the poorly treated Israelite slaves go. Pharaoh did not permit this until after the tenth plague. The plagues were applied in a way to portray clearly the reality of Israel's God, and by contrast the impotence of Egypt's gods.[1] Some commentators have associated several of the plagues with judgment on specific gods associated with the Nile, fertility and natural phenomena.[2] According to the book of Exodus, God proclaims that all the gods of Egypt will be judged through the tenth and final plague:
“ On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn - both men and animals - and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD ”
— Exodus 12:12 (New International Version)
...then they could ultimately expect the same fate that awaits the "other gods" to whom they clung. None of you are the "free spirits" that you imagine yourselves to be. You're blinded by Satan and are presently his children. As such, unless you genuinely repent and turn back towards God through Jesus Christ, your fate will perfectly match Satan's final end. That's how it goes.
In other words, God made them do it. Or, as this article concludes, evolution made them do it.
Science and religion: God didn't make man; man made gods
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...0,5682260.story
I wonder if this will get him back.
newguy, newguy, newguy.
As usual, an interesting article with a touch of witticism.
Funny, funny, funny!
Again, no "commandments" or written or spoken words can make one "aware that God exists" in and of themselves. Put this "commandment" in its proper context. The people to whom it was originally given had not only ALREADY seen plenty in regards to God's existence, but they also heard His very voice from heaven. In other words, don't put the proverbial cart before the horse. The "commandment" wasn't meant to make them "aware that God exists", but merely a reminder that He does exist and that if they willfully chose to go after "other gods", such as the "other gods" of Egypt against whom God actually pronounced His plagues...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt
The Ten Plagues of Egypt, also referred to as the Ten Plagues (Hebrew: עשר המכות, Eser Ha-Makot), the Plagues of Egypt (Hebrew: מכות מצרים, Makot Mitzrayim), or the Biblical Plagues, are the ten calamities imposed upon Egypt by Yahweh as recounted in the Book of Exodus, Chapters 7–12, to convince Pharaoh to let the poorly treated Israelite slaves go. Pharaoh did not permit this until after the tenth plague. The plagues were applied in a way to portray clearly the reality of Israel's God, and by contrast the impotence of Egypt's gods.[1] Some commentators have associated several of the plagues with judgment on specific gods associated with the Nile, fertility and natural phenomena.[2] According to the book of Exodus, God proclaims that all the gods of Egypt will be judged through the tenth and final plague:
“ On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn - both men and animals - and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD ”
— Exodus 12:12 (New International Version)
...then they could ultimately expect the same fate that awaits the "other gods" to whom they clung. None of you are the "free spirits" that you imagine yourselves to be. You're blinded by Satan and are presently his children. As such, unless you genuinely repent and turn back towards God through Jesus Christ, your fate will perfectly match Satan's final end. That's how it goes.
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+)
(Numbers 31:13-18)
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
This part “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me” is this a generational curse?
A "generational curse"? I'd say, NO! God was merely saying that those who hate Him, no matter what "generation" they were found in, could expect to have their own iniquities visited upon them and, conversely, that those who love Him, no matter what "generation" they were found in, could expect to be shown mercy. We're all accountable for our own actions and our own decisions. I hope that this answers your questions.
Well, in the PM that I received, I was asked to answer "politely". As I said, it's only out of "courtesy" (an element of politeness) that I've even bothered to answer...and on my son's 4th birthday (even as I announced it here 4 years ago), no less. I know you folks...my days of wasting time here are over.
Farewell.
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
This part “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me” is this a generational curse?
A "generational curse"? I'd say, NO! God was merely saying that those who hate Him, no matter what "generation" they were found in, could expect to have their own iniquities visited upon them and, conversely, that those who love Him, no matter what "generation" they were found in, could expect to be shown mercy. We're all accountable for our own actions and our own decisions. I hope that this answers your questions.
Well, in the PM that I received, I was asked to answer "politely". As I said, it's only out of "courtesy" (an element of politeness) that I've even bothered to answer...and on my son's 4th birthday (even as I announced it here 4 years ago), no less. I know you folks...my days of wasting time here are over.
Farewell.
One last thing, just for the sake of accuracy...
Your "quote" didn't come from Numbers chapter 31, so I don't know how that got attached to it at your end. The "commandment" that you cited is found either in Exodus chapter 20 or Deuteronomy chapter 5. I forgot to mention that earlier.
Your "quote" didn't come from Numbers chapter 31, so I don't know how that got attached to it at your end. The "commandment" that you cited is found either in Exodus chapter 20 or Deuteronomy chapter 5. I forgot to mention that earlier.
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 17 2011, 01:16 PM)
Here's the deal. I genuinely have no desire whatsoever to post on this forum anymore. However, I was contacted via PM and specifically asked by a forum member to comment on this thread, so, simply out of courtesy towards the member who asked me to comment, I will comment briefly and then spend my time more wisely elsewhere.
All right. Who sent the PM? Date and time PM was sent? Have you communicated with this poster prior to receiving the PM? Did you respond to the PM?
All right. Who sent the PM? Date and time PM was sent? Have you communicated with this poster prior to receiving the PM? Did you respond to the PM?
I have sent a PM to Newguy. I have communicated with Newguy before and he has responded.
[Edit*] Happy now?
-C2.
*Edited for lack of clarity.
[Edit*] Happy now?
-C2.
*Edited for lack of clarity.
Confused1 and I may have communicated via PM before, but certainly not anytime recently. IOW, he's not the one who PM'd me in regard to this thread.
Just for the record.
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
Just for the record.
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
Edit.
Peace be with us.
All.
-C2.
All.
-C2.
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 17 2011, 01:16 PM)
No "private interpretation" means that these men didn't decide what to write on their own, but rather that they wrote as they were "moved" or inspired by the Holy Ghost.
In other words, God made them do it. Or, as this article concludes, evolution made them do it.
Science and religion: God didn't make man; man made gods
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...0,5682260.story
I wonder if this will get him back.
newguy, newguy, newguy.
In other words, God made them do it. Or, as this article concludes, evolution made them do it.
Science and religion: God didn't make man; man made gods
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...0,5682260.story
QUOTE
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
I wonder if this will get him back.
newguy, newguy, newguy.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 19 2011, 03:20 AM)
In other words, God made them do it. Or, as this article concludes, evolution made them do it.
Science and religion: God didn't make man; man made gods
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...0,5682260.story
I wonder if this will get him back.
newguy, newguy, newguy.
As usual, an interesting article with a touch of witticism.
Funny, funny, funny!
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Jul 16 2011, 07:03 PM)
John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The word hieroglyph means sacred writings, (writing the words of God). The Greco-Romans thought that Egyptian hieroglyphs were allegorical, magical and contained secret mystical knowledge. Is this where the idea that the scriptures were directly from God originated?
I'm not sure that hieroglyphs are the source of the idea of words having magical power. Sumerian mythology includes incantations at least as early as 2000BC (for example the Incantation of Nudimmud - aka the Namshub of Enki, for Snow Crash readers). This pre-dates the revelation of the pentateuch to Moses by six or seven centuries. Whether or not it pre-dates ideas of magic in hieroglyphs I'm not sure; hieroglyphs are definitely older (4000BC are the earliest known), but there is apparently debate over who learned writing from whom, the Sumerians or the Egyptians. So, you may be right but the whole situation is, I suspect, more complex. All scholarship from Wikipedia, though, so I'm more than happy to believe my argument has flaws.
The word hieroglyph means sacred writings, (writing the words of God). The Greco-Romans thought that Egyptian hieroglyphs were allegorical, magical and contained secret mystical knowledge. Is this where the idea that the scriptures were directly from God originated?
I'm not sure that hieroglyphs are the source of the idea of words having magical power. Sumerian mythology includes incantations at least as early as 2000BC (for example the Incantation of Nudimmud - aka the Namshub of Enki, for Snow Crash readers). This pre-dates the revelation of the pentateuch to Moses by six or seven centuries. Whether or not it pre-dates ideas of magic in hieroglyphs I'm not sure; hieroglyphs are definitely older (4000BC are the earliest known), but there is apparently debate over who learned writing from whom, the Sumerians or the Egyptians. So, you may be right but the whole situation is, I suspect, more complex. All scholarship from Wikipedia, though, so I'm more than happy to believe my argument has flaws.
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Jul 16 2011, 07:03 PM)
This part “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me” is this a generational curse?
I tend to agree. Newguy's interpretation seems to be an awful stretch and - unusually for him - unsupported by other passages. For God to be saying that he'll punish those who hate him whatever generation they are found in, the punishment would have to be 'visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children'. That doesn't make much sense, as evils done by fathers mostly only affect children, who probably don't hate (or otherwise) God - yet. The generational curse makes more sense.
Happy to discuss by PM, newguy, if you're still reading and haven't turned into a pillar of salt.
I tend to agree. Newguy's interpretation seems to be an awful stretch and - unusually for him - unsupported by other passages. For God to be saying that he'll punish those who hate him whatever generation they are found in, the punishment would have to be 'visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children'. That doesn't make much sense, as evils done by fathers mostly only affect children, who probably don't hate (or otherwise) God - yet. The generational curse makes more sense.
Happy to discuss by PM, newguy, if you're still reading and haven't turned into a pillar of salt.
Same old game. Today, lies are spread by television instead of direct shouting by evangelists. 
It isn't even a stretch to assume that for early people, any written words were 'from God', or otherwise magical.
Remember Clarke's Law? Way back when, cave paintings were still magical, so words could be more so.
They still are...
It isn't even a stretch to assume that for early people, any written words were 'from God', or otherwise magical.
Remember Clarke's Law? Way back when, cave paintings were still magical, so words could be more so.
They still are...
QUOTE (Kino+)
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+)
This part “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me” is this a generational curse?
I tend to agree. Newguy's interpretation seems to be an awful stretch and - unusually for him - unsupported by other passages. For God to be saying that he'll punish those who hate him whatever generation they are found in, the punishment would have to be 'visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children'. That doesn't make much sense, as evils done by fathers mostly only affect children, who probably don't hate (or otherwise) God - yet. The generational curse makes more sense.
Happy to discuss by PM, newguy, if you're still reading and haven't turned into a pillar of salt.
Kino: I'll gladly give you other passages which support my position. First of all, by way of reminder, I already mentioned the following:
I tend to agree. Newguy's interpretation seems to be an awful stretch and - unusually for him - unsupported by other passages. For God to be saying that he'll punish those who hate him whatever generation they are found in, the punishment would have to be 'visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children'. That doesn't make much sense, as evils done by fathers mostly only affect children, who probably don't hate (or otherwise) God - yet. The generational curse makes more sense.
Happy to discuss by PM, newguy, if you're still reading and haven't turned into a pillar of salt.
Kino: I'll gladly give you other passages which support my position. First of all, by way of reminder, I already mentioned the following:
QUOTE (newguy+)
Your "quote" didn't come from Numbers chapter 31, so I don't know how that got attached to it at your end. The "commandment" that you cited is found either in Exodus chapter 20 or Deuteronomy chapter 5. I forgot to mention that earlier.
The commandment which NymphaeaAlba cited was given initially in the Exodus account during the original giving of the law to Moses at Mount Sinai. This commandment was given the second time TO THE SECOND GENERATION OF JEWS who came out of Egypt after 603,548 of the original 603,550 men who were 20 years old and upward from THE FIRST GENERATION were overthrown BY GOD in the wilderness. Only Joshua and Caleb "wholly followed the LORD". In fact, the word "Deuteronomy" literally means "the second giving of the law":
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search...searchmode=none
Deuteronomy
5th book of the Pentateuch, late 14c., from L.L. Deuteronomium, from Gk. Deuteronomion, lit. "second law," from deuteros "second" + nomos "law" (see numismatics). A mistranslation of Heb. mishneh hattorah hazzoth "a copy of this law" [Deut. 17:18]. The book is a repetition, with comments, of the Decalogue and most of the laws of Exodus. The title was translated literally into O.E. as æfteræ, lit. "after-law."
If this supposed "generational curse" of the fathers' sins being visited upon their children unto the third and fourth generation was really in place, then why didn't it automatically affect this SECOND GENERATION? Also, why would God bother giving this SECOND GENERATION the same commandment if they were already "cursed" according to your presently held position? Your position has no merit to it whatsoever. In fact, when speaking to the SECOND GENERATION about God's judgment on the FIRST GENERATION, Moses said the following:
"And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying, Surely there shall not one of these men of THIS EVIL GENERATION see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers, Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD. Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither. But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. MOREOVER YOUR LITTLE ONES, WHICH YE SAID SHOULD BE A PREY, AND YOUR CHILDREN, WHICH IN THAT DAY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, THEY SHALL GO IN THITHER, AND UNTO THEM WILL I GIVE IT, AND THEY SHALL POSSESS IT." (Deuteronomy 1:34-39)
Did you catch that? The "evil generation" was overthrown in the wilderness and never stepped foot in the promised land. However, THE SECOND GENERATION possessed it. How then was the iniquity of their fathers visited upon them? It wasn't. There are many other ways that I could disprove your presently held position as well. For example, there are cases where a king ruled wickedly whereas his son who followed after him ruled righteously. Conversely, there are also examples where a king ruled righteously whereas his son who followed after him ruled wickedly. Everyone is held accountable for their own actions or inactions. As it is written:
"The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." (Ezekiel 18:1-32)
There's much more to be said on this topic, but hopefully this will suffice.
Take care.
P.S. I must confess that your "pillar of salt" comment made me chuckle.
The commandment which NymphaeaAlba cited was given initially in the Exodus account during the original giving of the law to Moses at Mount Sinai. This commandment was given the second time TO THE SECOND GENERATION OF JEWS who came out of Egypt after 603,548 of the original 603,550 men who were 20 years old and upward from THE FIRST GENERATION were overthrown BY GOD in the wilderness. Only Joshua and Caleb "wholly followed the LORD". In fact, the word "Deuteronomy" literally means "the second giving of the law":
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search...searchmode=none
Deuteronomy
5th book of the Pentateuch, late 14c., from L.L. Deuteronomium, from Gk. Deuteronomion, lit. "second law," from deuteros "second" + nomos "law" (see numismatics). A mistranslation of Heb. mishneh hattorah hazzoth "a copy of this law" [Deut. 17:18]. The book is a repetition, with comments, of the Decalogue and most of the laws of Exodus. The title was translated literally into O.E. as æfteræ, lit. "after-law."
If this supposed "generational curse" of the fathers' sins being visited upon their children unto the third and fourth generation was really in place, then why didn't it automatically affect this SECOND GENERATION? Also, why would God bother giving this SECOND GENERATION the same commandment if they were already "cursed" according to your presently held position? Your position has no merit to it whatsoever. In fact, when speaking to the SECOND GENERATION about God's judgment on the FIRST GENERATION, Moses said the following:
"And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying, Surely there shall not one of these men of THIS EVIL GENERATION see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers, Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD. Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither. But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. MOREOVER YOUR LITTLE ONES, WHICH YE SAID SHOULD BE A PREY, AND YOUR CHILDREN, WHICH IN THAT DAY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, THEY SHALL GO IN THITHER, AND UNTO THEM WILL I GIVE IT, AND THEY SHALL POSSESS IT." (Deuteronomy 1:34-39)
Did you catch that? The "evil generation" was overthrown in the wilderness and never stepped foot in the promised land. However, THE SECOND GENERATION possessed it. How then was the iniquity of their fathers visited upon them? It wasn't. There are many other ways that I could disprove your presently held position as well. For example, there are cases where a king ruled wickedly whereas his son who followed after him ruled righteously. Conversely, there are also examples where a king ruled righteously whereas his son who followed after him ruled wickedly. Everyone is held accountable for their own actions or inactions. As it is written:
"The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." (Ezekiel 18:1-32)
There's much more to be said on this topic, but hopefully this will suffice.
Take care.
P.S. I must confess that your "pillar of salt" comment made me chuckle.
Could you be a little more concise?
Ahem!
This is just a rather superstitious take on the simple notion that bad behavior is more unwillingly infectious and more easily propagated.
And, of course, you needed to truncate the "quote" to propagate your own simple notion. In other words, the "quote" reads:
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; AND SHEWING MERCY UNTO THOUSANDS OF THEM THAT LOVE ME, AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." (Exodus 20:5-6)
"Unto the third and fourth generation" vs. "thousands". Which number is bigger/greater? I guess that depends upon how many "third and fourth generations" one begins with. Anyhow, as usual, you people have no idea whatsoever as to what you're talking about. You always run to "the law" when JESUS CHRIST preceded the law. He truly is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) and the "law was added" (Galatians 3:19) much later for reasons that seem to have totally evaded all of you. With all of your collective self-professed "knowledge", you people really know nothing. Pity.
QUOTE (newguy+)
Just for the record.
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
This is just a rather superstitious take on the simple notion that bad behavior is more unwillingly infectious and more easily propagated. Before we knew about the subconscious these things were attributed to demons and curses from God(s).
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
QUOTE
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
This is just a rather superstitious take on the simple notion that bad behavior is more unwillingly infectious and more easily propagated. Before we knew about the subconscious these things were attributed to demons and curses from God(s).
QUOTE (synthsin75+)
QUOTE
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
This is just a rather superstitious take on the simple notion that bad behavior is more unwillingly infectious and more easily propagated.
And, of course, you needed to truncate the "quote" to propagate your own simple notion. In other words, the "quote" reads:
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; AND SHEWING MERCY UNTO THOUSANDS OF THEM THAT LOVE ME, AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." (Exodus 20:5-6)
"Unto the third and fourth generation" vs. "thousands". Which number is bigger/greater? I guess that depends upon how many "third and fourth generations" one begins with. Anyhow, as usual, you people have no idea whatsoever as to what you're talking about. You always run to "the law" when JESUS CHRIST preceded the law. He truly is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) and the "law was added" (Galatians 3:19) much later for reasons that seem to have totally evaded all of you. With all of your collective self-professed "knowledge", you people really know nothing. Pity.
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 17 2011, 01:52 PM)
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
There you go, getting my hopes up and then crushing them.
There you go, getting my hopes up and then crushing them.
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 17 2011, 05:52 PM)
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
Truly a man of his word. These latest posts must be the work of imposters.
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 4,5
Truly a man of his word. These latest posts must be the work of imposters.
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 4,5
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+)
There you go, getting my hopes up and then crushing them.
And it's responses such as this one which cause me to have little to no hope for you. IOW, you seemingly don't mind if the wrong answers are given to questions in that you'll gladly overlook those. However, if someone like me, who was not only initially asked to participate in this thread, but also "egged on" to further participate, gives correct answers, well...
Look, if you really want to get rid of me, once and for all, then just keep your hatred and ignorance of God's Word to yourself (-ves). You (collectively) can't do that, can you? No, you cannot. It's just as someone else once suggested and I posted, only to be met with your disdain:
"There are two tenets to atheism:
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
Anyhow, you shouldn't fault a guy for trying to reason with you every now and then...even though it's apparently a waste of time.
EDIT: The same applies to Capracus, the very starter of some of these types of threads. God's wrath will be just upon such. Farewell.
And it's responses such as this one which cause me to have little to no hope for you. IOW, you seemingly don't mind if the wrong answers are given to questions in that you'll gladly overlook those. However, if someone like me, who was not only initially asked to participate in this thread, but also "egged on" to further participate, gives correct answers, well...
Look, if you really want to get rid of me, once and for all, then just keep your hatred and ignorance of God's Word to yourself (-ves). You (collectively) can't do that, can you? No, you cannot. It's just as someone else once suggested and I posted, only to be met with your disdain:
"There are two tenets to atheism:
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
Anyhow, you shouldn't fault a guy for trying to reason with you every now and then...even though it's apparently a waste of time.
EDIT: The same applies to Capracus, the very starter of some of these types of threads. God's wrath will be just upon such. Farewell.
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 21 2011, 01:38 PM)
"There are two tenets to atheism:
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
How can one hate what one has no perception of? How can one believe in a god that cannot be commonly sensed by believers and non-believers alike? Does your sense of gravity exist only because you believe it does? Will non-belief in gravity substitute for a parachute?
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
How can one hate what one has no perception of? How can one believe in a god that cannot be commonly sensed by believers and non-believers alike? Does your sense of gravity exist only because you believe it does? Will non-belief in gravity substitute for a parachute?
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 21 2011, 09:38 AM)
And it's responses such as this one which cause me to have little to no hope for you.
I didn't ask for hope. I would rather you believe me beyond hope so that I can see how you treat people who you aren't trying to convert.
Your answers are neither correct nor incorrect. They are opinions.
Your answers are neither correct nor incorrect. They are opinions.
Look, if you really want to get rid of me, once and for all, then just keep your hatred and ignorance of God's Word to yourself (-ves). You (collectively) can't do that, can you? No, you cannot. It's just as someone else once suggested and I posted, only to be met with your disdain:
"There are two tenets to atheism:
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
I'm offering a point of view free of the "explanations" and rationalizations offered by religion. The bible should be taken at face value, with fresh eyes. It's a complete fallacy to first assume the bible is correct and then try to read it without bias. I used to have the same bias as you, but it took someone without faith to point out the parts which I didn't actually agree with.
By the way, how can you hate something that doesn't exist? True, I dislike the idea of god, simply because it doesn't really explain anything about the universe.
Reason is not in your repertoire.
I didn't ask for hope. I would rather you believe me beyond hope so that I can see how you treat people who you aren't trying to convert.
QUOTE
IOW, you seemingly don't mind if the wrong answers are given to questions in that you'll gladly overlook those. However, if someone like me, who was not only initially asked to participate in this thread, but also "egged on" to further participate, gives correct answers, well...
Your answers are neither correct nor incorrect. They are opinions.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| IOW, you seemingly don't mind if the wrong answers are given to questions in that you'll gladly overlook those. However, if someone like me, who was not only initially asked to participate in this thread, but also "egged on" to further participate, gives correct answers, well... |
Your answers are neither correct nor incorrect. They are opinions.
Look, if you really want to get rid of me, once and for all, then just keep your hatred and ignorance of God's Word to yourself (-ves). You (collectively) can't do that, can you? No, you cannot. It's just as someone else once suggested and I posted, only to be met with your disdain:
"There are two tenets to atheism:
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
I'm offering a point of view free of the "explanations" and rationalizations offered by religion. The bible should be taken at face value, with fresh eyes. It's a complete fallacy to first assume the bible is correct and then try to read it without bias. I used to have the same bias as you, but it took someone without faith to point out the parts which I didn't actually agree with.
By the way, how can you hate something that doesn't exist? True, I dislike the idea of god, simply because it doesn't really explain anything about the universe.
QUOTE
Anyhow, you shouldn't fault a guy for trying to reason with you every now and then...even though it's apparently a waste of time.
Reason is not in your repertoire.
QUOTE (me+)
Ahem!
Just for the record.
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
QUOTE (newguy+)
Just for the record.
I'm officially done with this thread now. Whatever is posted from here on out won't be responded to by me, whether it's accurate or not.
QUOTE (newguy+)
And, of course, you needed to truncate the "quote" to propagate your own simple notion. In other words, the "quote" reads:
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; AND SHEWING MERCY UNTO THOUSANDS OF THEM THAT LOVE ME, AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." (Exodus 20:5-6)
"Unto the third and fourth generation" vs. "thousands". Which number is bigger/greater? I guess that depends upon how many "third and fourth generations" one begins with. Anyhow, as usual, you people have no idea whatsoever as to what you're talking about. You always run to "the law" when JESUS CHRIST preceded the law. He truly is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) and the "law was added" (Galatians 3:19) much later for reasons that seem to have totally evaded all of you. With all of your collective self-professed "knowledge", you people really know nothing. Pity.
Wait, weren't you just arguing against a generational curse? If it's not a generational curse, then obviously it is infectiously propagated to the subsequent children. Those who aren't raised by such "fathers" are, of course, shown the mercy of not having had that environment in a very influential stage in their lives. Simple reason, which supports your argument against a "generational curse", BTW.
Aside from pointing out your hypocrisy and outright lie about not posting further, I was only giving NA (who I quoted that snippet of verse from) a more reasoned take on it. That part wasn't directed at you, and even validated what you said, but you still went out of your way to be confrontational.
The fact that you couldn't even let support of your argument stand only betrays your insecurity.
And being "egged on" somehow pardons you, after the fact, for lying and being seemingly unrepentant. You won't even address this other than to point the blame elsewhere.
And being "egged on" somehow pardons you, after the fact, for lying and being seemingly unrepentant. You won't even address this other than to point the blame elsewhere.
"There are two tenets to atheism:
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
Anyhow, you shouldn't fault a guy for trying to reason with you every now and then...even though it's apparently a waste of time.
EDIT: The same applies to Capracus, the very starter of some of these types of threads. God's wrath will be just upon such. Farewell.
2. You would find, if you weren't so obtuse, that atheists (speaking as a non-atheist myself) only HATE people like you. People who profess God but only spew self-serving vile at every occasion, rather than engendering a positive attitude of God through a positive interaction with you.
You do not offer reason, as I have shown you above, but only judgment with your own house in obvious shambles.
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; AND SHEWING MERCY UNTO THOUSANDS OF THEM THAT LOVE ME, AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." (Exodus 20:5-6)
"Unto the third and fourth generation" vs. "thousands". Which number is bigger/greater? I guess that depends upon how many "third and fourth generations" one begins with. Anyhow, as usual, you people have no idea whatsoever as to what you're talking about. You always run to "the law" when JESUS CHRIST preceded the law. He truly is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) and the "law was added" (Galatians 3:19) much later for reasons that seem to have totally evaded all of you. With all of your collective self-professed "knowledge", you people really know nothing. Pity.
Wait, weren't you just arguing against a generational curse? If it's not a generational curse, then obviously it is infectiously propagated to the subsequent children. Those who aren't raised by such "fathers" are, of course, shown the mercy of not having had that environment in a very influential stage in their lives. Simple reason, which supports your argument against a "generational curse", BTW.
Aside from pointing out your hypocrisy and outright lie about not posting further, I was only giving NA (who I quoted that snippet of verse from) a more reasoned take on it. That part wasn't directed at you, and even validated what you said, but you still went out of your way to be confrontational.
The fact that you couldn't even let support of your argument stand only betrays your insecurity.
QUOTE
However, if someone like me, who was not only initially asked to participate in this thread, but also "egged on" to further participate, gives correct answers, well...
And being "egged on" somehow pardons you, after the fact, for lying and being seemingly unrepentant. You won't even address this other than to point the blame elsewhere.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| However, if someone like me, who was not only initially asked to participate in this thread, but also "egged on" to further participate, gives correct answers, well... |
And being "egged on" somehow pardons you, after the fact, for lying and being seemingly unrepentant. You won't even address this other than to point the blame elsewhere.
"There are two tenets to atheism:
1. There is no God.
2. I HATE HIM!"
Anyhow, you shouldn't fault a guy for trying to reason with you every now and then...even though it's apparently a waste of time.
EDIT: The same applies to Capracus, the very starter of some of these types of threads. God's wrath will be just upon such. Farewell.
2. You would find, if you weren't so obtuse, that atheists (speaking as a non-atheist myself) only HATE people like you. People who profess God but only spew self-serving vile at every occasion, rather than engendering a positive attitude of God through a positive interaction with you.
You do not offer reason, as I have shown you above, but only judgment with your own house in obvious shambles.
QUOTE (synthsin75+Jul 21 2011, 12:47 PM)
You would find, if you weren't so obtuse, that atheists (speaking as a non-atheist myself) only HATE people like you. People who profess God but only spew self-serving vile at every occasion, rather than engendering a positive attitude of God through a positive interaction with you.
I don't hate him, I just feel sorry for him and the people who have to deal with him. It's sad to see someone waste so much effort on such a meaningless cause.
I don't hate him, I just feel sorry for him and the people who have to deal with him. It's sad to see someone waste so much effort on such a meaningless cause.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 21 2011, 10:54 AM)
I don't hate him, I just feel sorry for him and the people who have to deal with him. It's sad to see someone waste so much effort on such a meaningless cause.
Yeah, "hate" is too strong, but something he'd understand. The really sad part is that his own disdain kneecaps whatever positive efforts he may envision.
Yeah, "hate" is too strong, but something he'd understand. The really sad part is that his own disdain kneecaps whatever positive efforts he may envision.
Newguy,
You give plenty of evidence from other passages that God did not curse everyone and their children. Fine. Perfectly happy to accept that. But, it's only a valid counter-argument if the bible is read as one coherent document. There is plenty of evidence that it's not (Matthew 1:1 and Luke 3:23 is the classic[1]).
My interpretation makes perfect sense in this context: different authors have different ideas about God and write different things. In that light, I continue to maintain that 'visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children' is meant to mean that the effects of a man's sins will be played out on his children. Your interpretation does not seem consistent with the use of 'upon the children'.
Glad you've not turned into a pillar of salt - perhaps God does not view us in quite such a harsh light as you seem to.
[1] Reference from memory - if that makes no sense, I'll look it up properly.
You give plenty of evidence from other passages that God did not curse everyone and their children. Fine. Perfectly happy to accept that. But, it's only a valid counter-argument if the bible is read as one coherent document. There is plenty of evidence that it's not (Matthew 1:1 and Luke 3:23 is the classic[1]).
My interpretation makes perfect sense in this context: different authors have different ideas about God and write different things. In that light, I continue to maintain that 'visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children' is meant to mean that the effects of a man's sins will be played out on his children. Your interpretation does not seem consistent with the use of 'upon the children'.
Glad you've not turned into a pillar of salt - perhaps God does not view us in quite such a harsh light as you seem to.
[1] Reference from memory - if that makes no sense, I'll look it up properly.
QUOTE (Kino+)
Newguy,
You give plenty of evidence from other passages that God did not curse everyone and their children. Fine. Perfectly happy to accept that. But, it's only a valid counter-argument if the bible is read as one coherent document. There is plenty of evidence that it's not (Matthew 1:1 and Luke 3:23 is the classic[1]).
Kino: "The classic"? "The classic" what? "The classic" show of ignorance? I'd have no problem agreeing with that. I'm assuming, by your references, that you're referring to the supposed "contradictions" in Jesus' genealogies as outlined by both Matthew and Luke. Specifically, the supposed "contradictions" surrounding Joseph. If such is indeed the case, then I refer you to the following rather lengthy dialogue that transpired between PuckSR and me a while back. The dialogue was actually started by an ignorant comment that Physfan made and then continued on in its original thread and ultimately "evolved" into a thread of its own. Anyhow, here are the pertinent links:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406612
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406617
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406678
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406767
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=407006
Here is where it "evolved" into a thread of its own:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=25402
If you follow both the links and the dialogue, then you should see that your "classic" is only "classic" in the sense of ignorance. I'm not seeking to insult you with my use of the word "ignorance", by the way. We're all initially ignorant of many things. It's willful ignorance that I'm personally opposed to. In other words, after you've actually seen the facts, don't shut your eyes to them.
You give plenty of evidence from other passages that God did not curse everyone and their children. Fine. Perfectly happy to accept that. But, it's only a valid counter-argument if the bible is read as one coherent document. There is plenty of evidence that it's not (Matthew 1:1 and Luke 3:23 is the classic[1]).
Kino: "The classic"? "The classic" what? "The classic" show of ignorance? I'd have no problem agreeing with that. I'm assuming, by your references, that you're referring to the supposed "contradictions" in Jesus' genealogies as outlined by both Matthew and Luke. Specifically, the supposed "contradictions" surrounding Joseph. If such is indeed the case, then I refer you to the following rather lengthy dialogue that transpired between PuckSR and me a while back. The dialogue was actually started by an ignorant comment that Physfan made and then continued on in its original thread and ultimately "evolved" into a thread of its own. Anyhow, here are the pertinent links:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406612
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406617
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406678
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=406767
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=407006
Here is where it "evolved" into a thread of its own:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=25402
If you follow both the links and the dialogue, then you should see that your "classic" is only "classic" in the sense of ignorance. I'm not seeking to insult you with my use of the word "ignorance", by the way. We're all initially ignorant of many things. It's willful ignorance that I'm personally opposed to. In other words, after you've actually seen the facts, don't shut your eyes to them.
QUOTE (Kino+)
My interpretation makes perfect sense in this context: different authors have different ideas about God and write different things. In that light, I continue to maintain that 'visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children' is meant to mean that the effects of a man's sins will be played out on his children. Your interpretation does not seem consistent with the use of 'upon the children'.
Hopefully, the following will help you to better understand what is meant by "visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon their children".
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Matthew 23:29-36)
That was Jesus speaking to a bunch of the religious Jews of His day. These Jews HYPOCRITICALLY claimed that if they had been in the days of their fathers, then they would not have been partakers with them in killing the prophets and shedding their blood. In other words, by their own testimony, they were well aware of "the iniquity of their fathers". Did they really learn from them and turn out differently from their fathers or were they just like their fathers and thereby committing the same iniquities that they committed? Unfortunately, it's the latter of the two. They were not only about to have a hand in the death of Jesus Who was a Prophet Himself, but they were about to have a hand in the death of the One of Whom all of the prophets had written, namely Jesus Christ. IN THIS SENSE, the "iniquities of their fathers were being visited upon them" because they were guilty of the same exact things as their fathers. Not only this, but Jesus went so far as to tell these religious hypocrites that they would be held accountable for "ALL the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and the altar". Why would these folks be held accountable for "ALL the righteous blood shed upon the earth", including blood that was shed long before they had ever even been born? Because we're accountable for what we know and God expects us to learn from it. We need not make every single mistake ourselves, but we can certainly learn from the mistakes of others. These religious hypocrites (once again, they claimed that they wouldn't have done what their fathers did, yet were about to do the same and even worse by having a hand in Jesus' death) did the same or worse than their fathers did and therefore "the iniquity of their fathers would be visited upon them". Stephen, before he was stoned to death, gave a lengthy discourse of Jewish history to his own religiously hypocritical hearers that ended with this:
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers..." (Acts 7:51-52)
It's just as I said. These religious hypocrites resisted the Holy Ghost, just as their fathers had done. Same "iniquities", same consequences. Also, as I mentioned earlier, they not only were guilty of the blood of the prophets whom their fathers had killed, but they were also "betrayers and murderers" of "the Just One", Jesus Christ, of whom the prophets "shewed before His coming". Hopefully, you now have a better understanding of what it means to have "the iniquities of the fathers visited upon you". If we/you knowingly commit the same iniquities that our fathers have committed, then the consequences will be the same. It's really that simple. Thank God for REPENTANCE. His mercy and grace are available unto you even as I type.
Hopefully, the following will help you to better understand what is meant by "visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon their children".
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Matthew 23:29-36)
That was Jesus speaking to a bunch of the religious Jews of His day. These Jews HYPOCRITICALLY claimed that if they had been in the days of their fathers, then they would not have been partakers with them in killing the prophets and shedding their blood. In other words, by their own testimony, they were well aware of "the iniquity of their fathers". Did they really learn from them and turn out differently from their fathers or were they just like their fathers and thereby committing the same iniquities that they committed? Unfortunately, it's the latter of the two. They were not only about to have a hand in the death of Jesus Who was a Prophet Himself, but they were about to have a hand in the death of the One of Whom all of the prophets had written, namely Jesus Christ. IN THIS SENSE, the "iniquities of their fathers were being visited upon them" because they were guilty of the same exact things as their fathers. Not only this, but Jesus went so far as to tell these religious hypocrites that they would be held accountable for "ALL the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and the altar". Why would these folks be held accountable for "ALL the righteous blood shed upon the earth", including blood that was shed long before they had ever even been born? Because we're accountable for what we know and God expects us to learn from it. We need not make every single mistake ourselves, but we can certainly learn from the mistakes of others. These religious hypocrites (once again, they claimed that they wouldn't have done what their fathers did, yet were about to do the same and even worse by having a hand in Jesus' death) did the same or worse than their fathers did and therefore "the iniquity of their fathers would be visited upon them". Stephen, before he was stoned to death, gave a lengthy discourse of Jewish history to his own religiously hypocritical hearers that ended with this:
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers..." (Acts 7:51-52)
It's just as I said. These religious hypocrites resisted the Holy Ghost, just as their fathers had done. Same "iniquities", same consequences. Also, as I mentioned earlier, they not only were guilty of the blood of the prophets whom their fathers had killed, but they were also "betrayers and murderers" of "the Just One", Jesus Christ, of whom the prophets "shewed before His coming". Hopefully, you now have a better understanding of what it means to have "the iniquities of the fathers visited upon you". If we/you knowingly commit the same iniquities that our fathers have committed, then the consequences will be the same. It's really that simple. Thank God for REPENTANCE. His mercy and grace are available unto you even as I type.
QUOTE (Kino+)
Glad you've not turned into a pillar of salt - perhaps God does not view us in quite such a harsh light as you seem to.
Well, I'm glad that you said "seem to". According to God's Word, you stand condemned already.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:16-21)
If your ultimate end is to be condemned, then you'll have no one to blame but yourself. God has made provision for you (and all) to be saved from YOUR OWN INIQUITIES through Jesus Christ. Whether or not you'll ever accept God's gracious offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is ultimately up to you. At my end, with all of the ridicule that I've taken here for nearly six years, I've desired nothing but for you (individually and collectively) to come to the place of true repentance before God that you might find eternal life in Jesus Christ. By the way, I don't see you "in a harsh light" as you suggested. Rather, I see you all, as blind men/women, groping around IN THE DARK. Jesus Christ is the Light of the world, my friend. May you willfully step out of the darkness that you're presently in and truly walk in His Light.
Take care.
Well, I'm glad that you said "seem to". According to God's Word, you stand condemned already.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:16-21)
If your ultimate end is to be condemned, then you'll have no one to blame but yourself. God has made provision for you (and all) to be saved from YOUR OWN INIQUITIES through Jesus Christ. Whether or not you'll ever accept God's gracious offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is ultimately up to you. At my end, with all of the ridicule that I've taken here for nearly six years, I've desired nothing but for you (individually and collectively) to come to the place of true repentance before God that you might find eternal life in Jesus Christ. By the way, I don't see you "in a harsh light" as you suggested. Rather, I see you all, as blind men/women, groping around IN THE DARK. Jesus Christ is the Light of the world, my friend. May you willfully step out of the darkness that you're presently in and truly walk in His Light.
Take care.
QUOTE (newguy+Jul 23 2011, 11:46 AM)
Rather, I see you all, as blind men/women, groping around IN THE DARK. Jesus Christ is the Light of the world, my friend. May you willfully step out of the darkness that you're presently in and truly walk in His Light.
Blind men and women don’t grope around in the dark, the sighted do. Since darkness is nature of their existence, the blind become adept at its navigation. You’re a sighted man in a world of darkness, look for the blind man to lead the way.
If Jesus Christ is the light of the world, then why must he exist in the shadows? Out of sight of the non-believers, the very individuals you seem to think need him most?
Blind men and women don’t grope around in the dark, the sighted do. Since darkness is nature of their existence, the blind become adept at its navigation. You’re a sighted man in a world of darkness, look for the blind man to lead the way.
If Jesus Christ is the light of the world, then why must he exist in the shadows? Out of sight of the non-believers, the very individuals you seem to think need him most?
Maybe they should rename this forum < Anti-Creation/Pro-Evolution Forum> Other than me there are only two people who favour creation here. I'll keep my creation views to myself for now. Sorry, I think I've spoken too much.
QUOTE (Jesuit+Jul 23 2011, 01:35 PM)
I'll keep my creation views to myself for now.
Because?
Because?
QUOTE (Jesuit+Jul 23 2011, 09:35 AM)
Maybe they should rename this forum < Anti-Creation/Pro-Evolution Forum> Other than me there are only two people who favour creation here. I'll keep my creation views to myself for now. Sorry, I think I've spoken too much.
This surprises you? This a a science discussion forum, not a religious discussion forum. If you want to preach to the choir, there are hundreds of sites where you can do just that. If you want to challenge your beliefs, then stick around.
This surprises you? This a a science discussion forum, not a religious discussion forum. If you want to preach to the choir, there are hundreds of sites where you can do just that. If you want to challenge your beliefs, then stick around.
I wonder if a devout Christian could like and love an atheist?
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Jul 23 2011, 12:00 PM)
I wonder if a devout Christian could like and love an atheist?
I think you should add the qualifier: "without trying to convert them at every opportunity."
I think you should add the qualifier: "without trying to convert them at every opportunity."
Exactly, they see us as inferior. They only express pity and contempt, not compassion or sympathy. Love the sinner but not the sin, right? 
“Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.”
It seems that judging others makes many people feel self-righteous. After all, justification is by faith alone. God isn’t the ultimate judge. He’s the ultimate fall guy?
“Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.”
It seems that judging others makes many people feel self-righteous. After all, justification is by faith alone. God isn’t the ultimate judge. He’s the ultimate fall guy?
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Jul 23 2011, 01:04 PM)
Exactly, they see us as inferior. They only express pity and contempt, not compassion or sympathy. Love the sinner but not the sin, right?
There are all types. A lot of the Christians I know truly do express compassion and sympathy in their attempt to convert me, and some are just a-holes.
There are all types. A lot of the Christians I know truly do express compassion and sympathy in their attempt to convert me, and some are just a-holes.
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Jul 23 2011, 04:00 PM)
I wonder if a devout Christian could like and love an atheist?
My wife claims to.
My wife claims to.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jul 23 2011, 03:02 PM)
My wife claims to.
Oh, no way! That’s hilarious.
My mother is constantly on my case. She says that I’m causing the family so much pain. They don’t even like to think about what’s going to happen to me when I keel over. They want me to say that I accept Christ into my heart, just in case.
I can’t imagine being married to one.
Oh, no way! That’s hilarious.
My mother is constantly on my case. She says that I’m causing the family so much pain. They don’t even like to think about what’s going to happen to me when I keel over. They want me to say that I accept Christ into my heart, just in case.
I can’t imagine being married to one.
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Jul 23 2011, 07:06 PM)
My mother is constantly on my case. She says that I’m causing the family so much pain. They don’t even like to think about what’s going to happen to me when I keel over. They want me to say that I accept Christ into my heart, just in case.
Ah, so many things make more sense now. I have often wondered where you live to feel so looked down upon as an atheist, but it turns out that it may not be society in general that makes you feel this way, but those much closer and significant to you.
I've always thought it odd to hear an atheist talk as if they were persecuted. It's only your willingness to allow family to do this to you that accounts for it, as anyone should easily be able to ignore others in society.
You shouldn't generalize that experience too much.
Ah, so many things make more sense now. I have often wondered where you live to feel so looked down upon as an atheist, but it turns out that it may not be society in general that makes you feel this way, but those much closer and significant to you.
I've always thought it odd to hear an atheist talk as if they were persecuted. It's only your willingness to allow family to do this to you that accounts for it, as anyone should easily be able to ignore others in society.
You shouldn't generalize that experience too much.
QUOTE (Jesuit+Jul 23 2011, 07:35 AM)
Maybe they should rename this forum < Anti-Creation/Pro-Evolution Forum> Other than me there are only two people who favour creation here. I'll keep my creation views to myself for now. Sorry, I think I've spoken too much.
It is a rather simplistic fallacy to place creation as polar opposite to evolution, even to the big bang.
As opposed to the poor oppressed christian majority?
It is a rather simplistic fallacy to place creation as polar opposite to evolution, even to the big bang.
QUOTE (newguy+)
Well, I'm glad that you said "seem to". According to God's Word, you stand condemned already.
And there you go again, turning people away from God. People to not welcome ones who condemn them, and by extension do not welcome any message they may profess.
And there you go again, turning people away from God. People to not welcome ones who condemn them, and by extension do not welcome any message they may profess.
QUOTE (synthsin75+Jul 23 2011, 05:18 PM)
Ah, so many things make more sense now. I have often wondered where you live to feel so looked down upon as an atheist, but it turns out that it may not be society in general that makes you feel this way, but those much closer and significant to you.
I've always thought it odd to hear an atheist talk as if they were persecuted. It's only your willingness to allow family to do this to you that accounts for it, as anyone should easily be able to ignore others in society.
You shouldn't generalize that experience too much.
Ought oh! Little nasty pants is back.
That not entirely true, and I plan on making a post soon, one just for you, little boy.
Do you feel that there is no discrimination against atheists at all?
I've always thought it odd to hear an atheist talk as if they were persecuted. It's only your willingness to allow family to do this to you that accounts for it, as anyone should easily be able to ignore others in society.
You shouldn't generalize that experience too much.
Ought oh! Little nasty pants is back.
That not entirely true, and I plan on making a post soon, one just for you, little boy.
Do you feel that there is no discrimination against atheists at all?
QUOTE
I've always thought it odd to hear an atheist talk as if they were persecuted.
As opposed to the poor oppressed christian majority?
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Jul 23 2011, 09:06 PM)
My mother is constantly on my case. She says that I’m causing the family so much pain. They don’t even like to think about what’s going to happen to me when I keel over. They want me to say that I accept Christ into my heart, just in case.
Both my parents do that, but each in their own way. Less guilt-tripping and more "God wants you to know him, but you're shutting him out. Give god a chance." I do feel accomplished now that I've convinced them that Evolution is real...
My SO is a theist/pseudo-catholic with an interest in bahai. She has been very accommodating to all viewpoints and beliefs, but she is sometimes troubled by the fact that I don't believe in an afterlife.
Both my parents do that, but each in their own way. Less guilt-tripping and more "God wants you to know him, but you're shutting him out. Give god a chance." I do feel accomplished now that I've convinced them that Evolution is real...
QUOTE
I can’t imagine being married to one.
My SO is a theist/pseudo-catholic with an interest in bahai. She has been very accommodating to all viewpoints and beliefs, but she is sometimes troubled by the fact that I don't believe in an afterlife.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 23 2011, 08:54 PM)
Both my parents do that, but each in their own way. Less guilt-tripping and more "God wants you to know him, but you're shutting him out. Give god a chance." I do feel accomplished now that I've convinced them that Evolution is real...
My SO is a theist/pseudo-catholic with an interest in bahai. She has been very accommodating to all viewpoints and beliefs, but she is sometimes troubled by the fact that I don't believe in an afterlife.
You should feel fortunate then.
My family is extremely religious. I can recall the time when my grandmother found my birth control pills. She hid them in my bible with notes to God asking him to save my soul. My cousin lost her son when he was only eight, and the minister told everyone that he was in hell, because he wasn’t baptized. The only person that said anything was a well known alcoholic, who I now respect. Another cousin of mine is a history professor. He always makes it a point to hug me and whisper in my ear that I’m hell bound. The one that really got to me though, was a woman, who grabbed my arm at my father’s funeral. She was crying terribly and begged me to tell her that he was saved. He was not and I didn’t even know the woman. Crazy Christians.
Baha'i Faith, eh? It is interesting. There was a guy in here, Ron Price, who started a thread about his bipolar disorder. He had a compulsion to write. He was teacher and seemed very intelligent He belong to the Baha’i faith and he wrote a lot about it.
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2728-61688/Bah/Ron-Price.htm
My SO is a theist/pseudo-catholic with an interest in bahai. She has been very accommodating to all viewpoints and beliefs, but she is sometimes troubled by the fact that I don't believe in an afterlife.
You should feel fortunate then.
My family is extremely religious. I can recall the time when my grandmother found my birth control pills. She hid them in my bible with notes to God asking him to save my soul. My cousin lost her son when he was only eight, and the minister told everyone that he was in hell, because he wasn’t baptized. The only person that said anything was a well known alcoholic, who I now respect. Another cousin of mine is a history professor. He always makes it a point to hug me and whisper in my ear that I’m hell bound. The one that really got to me though, was a woman, who grabbed my arm at my father’s funeral. She was crying terribly and begged me to tell her that he was saved. He was not and I didn’t even know the woman. Crazy Christians.
Baha'i Faith, eh? It is interesting. There was a guy in here, Ron Price, who started a thread about his bipolar disorder. He had a compulsion to write. He was teacher and seemed very intelligent He belong to the Baha’i faith and he wrote a lot about it.
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2728-61688/Bah/Ron-Price.htm
QUOTE (synthsin75+)
Ah, so many things make more sense now. I have often wondered where you live to feel so looked down upon as an atheist, but it turns out that it may not be society in general that makes you feel this way, but those much closer and significant to you.
I've always thought it odd to hear an atheist talk as if they were persecuted. It's only your willingness to allow family to do this to you that accounts for it, as anyone should easily be able to ignore others in society.
You shouldn't generalize that experience too much.
I've always thought it odd to hear an atheist talk as if they were persecuted. It's only your willingness to allow family to do this to you that accounts for it, as anyone should easily be able to ignore others in society.
You shouldn't generalize that experience too much.
Like almost any minority with a "cause", some atheists (as well as theists, gays, vegans, etc.) make their cause such an integral part of what they consider their identity that they are bound and determined to take opposition personally. As some sort of personal condemnation. The only way that effects you is if you allow yourself to believe that the opinions of such opposition are in some way valid.
Personally, I can easily deal with people of any ideology, atheist, theist, or what have you.
1. I know enough about most ideologies to be able to speak the language, so to speak.
2. I'm not looking to convert anyone to anything.
3. If I feel I am dealing with someone who may "discriminate" based on their ideology (yes, even atheists) in an unprofessional manor, I have absolutely no compunction with lying to them. I'm not doing anything but allowing them to keep their comfy ideology while keeping it from adversely effecting me.
There is far too much ignorance for me to feel like I have to self-righteously correct it all. And I know that anyone's condemnation doesn't exist beyond their own forehead, unless of course they are criminal enough to forcefully act upon it.
Everyone you deal with has their own world view, and you cannot help but deal with them through theirs. A utopian, ideal, and homogenized world will never exist.
Personally, I can easily deal with people of any ideology, atheist, theist, or what have you.
1. I know enough about most ideologies to be able to speak the language, so to speak.
2. I'm not looking to convert anyone to anything.
3. If I feel I am dealing with someone who may "discriminate" based on their ideology (yes, even atheists) in an unprofessional manor, I have absolutely no compunction with lying to them. I'm not doing anything but allowing them to keep their comfy ideology while keeping it from adversely effecting me.
There is far too much ignorance for me to feel like I have to self-righteously correct it all. And I know that anyone's condemnation doesn't exist beyond their own forehead, unless of course they are criminal enough to forcefully act upon it.
Everyone you deal with has their own world view, and you cannot help but deal with them through theirs. A utopian, ideal, and homogenized world will never exist.
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