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Cq27
We need to get on with with REAL debate, so I'll start it off with this opening statement for any/all religious brains to criticize and/or debate.


God does not heal the sick. He does not give limbs back to war heroes. Natural disasters do not stop. Why does god not reveal himself? He (or so you say) wants us to have faith, but why would he test us when he could save us from eternal damnation so easily? Why put us through this?

No insults, and don't avoid the question.
mudderrunner
I say science takes religion easy in the first round. Religion will probably try a cheap shot by pointing behind science and saying, "Hey, what's that?" but science isn't tricked by beliefs.

unsure.gif
Sapo
QUOTE (Cq27+Mar 4 2008, 06:57 PM)
Why does god not reveal himself? He (or so you say) wants us to have faith, but why would he test us when he could save us from eternal damnation so easily? Why put us through this?

Because he wants souls that are ripe? Because we have free will to choose the wrong path? Because pain might be to a soul as ethylene is to a banana?

What are you being 'put through' that hurts so much? Well, hell, so are we. Had you noticed?

No insults.

PuckSR
That doesn't make any sense....

God is all-powerful. That means he could have created a reality where none of those ideas hold true.
El_Machinae
Believing that suffering is good for the soul leads to the paradoxical conclusion that it's good for people if you hurt them.
Sinister Utopia
Well as an Atheist, non believer whatever you wish to perceive me as, the answer is easy because I do not believe there is a God, However that does not mean there is no God because, my beliefs are irrelevant.

However if the God as described in the Old Testament is true then the answer is simply that God probably enjoys Human suffering, and has revealed himself to Moses.
He possibly wants to recruit followers for some reason, and judging by the lack of any recent showings I'd say he has already got what he wanted or has simply given up on us., I don't know.

Of course any other descriptions of Gods could have many different possible hypotheses. I wouldn't know where to begin other than study Nature as best as I can and try to learn from those with more knowledge.

However as soon as we try to perceive a God that interferes with Nature we surely cannot assert that he exists outside the realm of observable Science.

Either way I think we are alone, which means that God has Faith in us.
That means that he probably does not require worship, unless he is vain etc etc




Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (mudderrunner+Mar 5 2008, 12:47 AM)
I say science takes religion easy in the first round. Religion will probably try a cheap shot by pointing behind science and saying, "Hey, what's that?" but science isn't tricked by beliefs.

unsure.gif

The problem with Science is that it is not vs Religion. Science is a Tool, or a method. Religion will always win because the rules are simple.

Richard Dawkins who if the dabate is based on ' He who produces the most factual information to back his claims' would win every time. Unfortunately as he states himself
he would not 'win' any such debate because the information is complicated and is not easy to explain in a 20 minute's each 5 minute rebuttal type scenario. That's why he never takes part. Someone like Ken Hovind can easily appear more plausible in a debate to laymen because it's all made up. He and his types talk about "Paintings that must have Painter's" which is easily understood yet is insulting to Nature which functions without somebody pulling the strings and pressing buttons.

He makes his video's and presentations light hearted and seemingly Scientific, which re-assures Creationists and can mis-lead neutrals.

It may require a more evangelical side to the Scientists themselves perhaps to combat Religious zealotry, which is alien to most Scientists. Other than that un-biased information and education for the masses might encourage critical thinking in the youth of tomorrow.

Otherwise it's looking like a 'Horseshoe in the Gloves' win for Religion
Sir Carnage
QUOTE (PuckSR+Mar 5 2008, 01:10 AM)
That doesn't make any sense....

God is all-powerful. That means he could have created a reality where none of those ideas hold true.

Well, theoraticly speaking, that is impossible......

If "god"is all knowing, then he would know whether or not we would end up in heaven or hell, he would "know"wether or not we would have trust in him......he would know if we would believe in him.

If he "was"all powerfull, the he WOULD create a stone he cannot lift, or leap a wall he cannot make, (or vise versa).

It is a paradox to be infinitly smart, infintly strong or infinitly powerfull......



Either god exists but isnt all powerfull,smart and strong.

Or "he"dosnt exist at all.

Make up your mind.


Sir
mudderrunner
ehh, I wasn't actually making an argument
iseason
QUOTE (mudderrunner+Mar 5 2008, 05:19 PM)
ehh, I wasn't actually making an argument

Ah

God exists as a basis for most emerging cultures. It is only when we feel we can understand the would OURSELVES that anybody changes this position.
One of the most interesting untrue statements is ' that God is everywhere".

If this were true , then God acts against him/her self.
More realistic is that we create an environment who's portions can be broken down to the lowest common form of energy. This energy will be creative in the same way that sand can be creative.......

Same as building sandcastles, You need a process if you have limited sand..........further --no one knows what a sandcastle looks like.

So if I look at what god might be , it would be a builder of every kind of sandcastles with each requiring the entire amount of sand for each....

This means in fact , that God IS everywhere,affecting everything.......But it's only sand....intelligence lies in the process , not the sand.

Cheers
Iseason
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (iseason+Mar 5 2008, 08:55 AM)
Ah

God exists as a basis for most emerging cultures. It is only when we feel we can understand the would OURSELVES that anybody changes this position.
One of the most interesting untrue statements is ' that God is everywhere".

If this were true , then God acts against him/her self.
More realistic is that we create an environment who's portions can be broken down to the lowest common form of energy. This energy will be creative in the same way that sand can be creative.......

Same as building sandcastles, You need a process if you have limited sand..........further --no one knows what a sandcastle looks like.

So if I look at what god might be , it would be a builder of every kind of sandcastles with each requiring the entire amount of sand for each....

This means in fact , that God IS everywhere,affecting everything.......But it's only sand....intelligence lies in the process , not the sand.

Cheers
Iseason

If what you say is true and God is the process of Nature, and that is the Intelligence.
I would almost agree with you, however by using the term God you are over complicating everything. God is a term that invokes the Supernatural.

Occam's razor would suggest that you simply use the term Nature or process.
Why do we need external (Supernatural) explanations for something that has a complexity and beauty that can be explained Naturally.

It's as if Nature is not good enough.
The only reason I can think of for requiring the need of something more than Nature itself would be due to Religious indoctrination.

If we are not bound by Religious dogma, then why do we need to see the Universe through it's eyes? Shouldn't Religion be waiting with baited breath for new discoveries that reveal the true wonder of Nature/God?

Why do they oppose certain Scientific discoveries? Isn't that true Blasphemy?

If Nature is all there is, then that is our 'God', if there is indeed an external entity, then he/she/it has created Nature for us, which amounts to the same thing.

Either way we have to face Reality as it is, until we know otherwise.

Kind regards
Cq27
Bravo, bravo ladies and/or gentlemen.

Although we only had one wo/man of religious backgrounds who cared to take the challenge.

Sinister Utopia, you are absolutely correct. We need to face reality. But what is reality? A computer generated life for us while someone or something harvests our life force? Or is it a world where god exists very clearly and we are blind to something larger?

Prove whatever reality you believe in using whatever means you care to.
Capracus
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 5 2008, 12:49 PM)
It's as if Nature is not good enough.
The only reason I can think of for requiring the need of something more than Nature itself would be due to Religious indoctrination.
It doesn't have to be either or, you can have both. A god or many gods could exist as elements of nature. By gods I mean entities that are able to skillfully wield great power. For us as humans to perceive such an entity as a god, it would only require sufficient skill to surpass our limited ability to discern it as anything less. Like a magician for example.

Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 5 2008, 06:12 PM)
It doesn't have to be either or, you can have both. A god or many gods could exist as elements of nature. By gods I mean entities that are able to skillfully wield great power. For us as humans to perceive such an entity as a god, it would only require sufficient skill to surpass our limited ability to discern it as anything less. Like a magician for example.

Ok, but if we cannot detect, recognize, understand or distinguish the difference between the 'God' and Nature then it essentially ceases to be God and is simply Nature until we can distinguish.

This though takes us back to God's such as Thor who it was believed influenced or was the cause of Thunder. However when we brake down and examine all the components that we can discern are the causes of Thunder, we have to ask ourselves what is Thor actually doing? There is seemingly nothing left for him to do. Unless he commands Thunder remotely somehow in which case we are back to square one which is believing that Thor is the cause despite the lack of evidence to support his influence or existence.

It is very difficult but important to try and put yourself in the shoes of someone who lived in the World where a belief in such a God is reasonable. Imagine looking up at the sky, with all it's color and beauty, the clouds and the ferocity of a Storm which no doubt
was very frightening. It's also reasonable in that time to presume that there is a connection between the Storm and activities which a person may have considered to be
wicked for example. Superstition has been invoked in pigeons under Laboratory conditions. It seems logical to pray for Rain if you believe you are being watched.

Superstitious Pigeons
Cq27
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Superstitous pidgeons! Wow. That was funny and depressing at the same time.

Depressing because it's true...

Funny because it's true!!!
Rusty Shackleford
I repeated that experiment when I took behavior analysis in college. It was grand fun. It would be fairly easy to repeat at home, if you build your own Skinner box.
Capracus
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 5 2008, 06:42 PM)
Ok, but if we cannot detect, recognize, understand or distinguish the difference between the 'God' and Nature then it essentially ceases to be God and is simply Nature until we can distinguish.
If a capable entity presented itself as the god of the Bible, and demanded the requisite response from humanity, would you accept this proposition and comply? Or would you be ever skeptical and attempt to unmask the possible pretender.
Cq27
I'd do it undercover, because (as I've said before) any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic.

mudderrunner
what's a "capable entity"?
Cq27
I bet it's an unknown entity with powers/senses/technology that we don't have.

Just a guess.

Now, who can defend their position on what is reality and what is not?(!!!)?
Capracus
QUOTE (mudderrunner+Mar 5 2008, 07:55 PM)
what's a "capable entity"?

Anything or being with enough skill and resources to meet our expectation of the the god of the Bible. Because we don't have the ability to distinguish the real thing from a lesser pretender, what do you do?
gmilam
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 5 2008, 02:11 PM)
Anything or being with enough skill and resources to meet our expectation of the the god of the Bible. Because we don't have the ability to distinguish the real thing from a lesser pretender, what do you do?

Find out why "he" desires to be worshipped...

And see if "he" has any of that good wine that was served at that wedding. Then see if he wants us to BBQ a lamb for him.
Cq27
I'm Vegetarian. I don't want to barbecue things...
gmilam
Maybe he'd be willing to allow BBQ'd tofu... But I seem to recall the rituals calling for lamb.
Cq27
Er, tofu's not all that it's made out to be...
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 5 2008, 08:11 PM)
Anything or being with enough skill and resources to meet our expectation of the the god of the Bible. Because we don't have the ability to distinguish the real thing from a lesser pretender, what do you do?

Well if it was the God of the Old Testament then I would have to decipher what this entities intentions were I suppose. If it meant Public Stoning and 24/7 Worship, then I guess I would probably end up being punished or my Soul tortured, I don't know. However If it was Jesus, then again I would have to listen and learn (if I am allowed) and try to decide whether or not this is the real thing. The New Testament is a welcome improvement from the Old, however this is where the concept of Heaven & Hell are introduced I believe (I'm not 100% certain of that) In this case I would already be in a kind of Hell, because this would be the end of our freedom.
In fact wouldn't this be Armageddon or Judgment day or something?
In which case most of us are screwed I guess.

And what would you do?


Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Cq27+Mar 5 2008, 08:09 PM)
I bet it's an unknown entity with powers/senses/technology that we don't have.

Just a guess.

Now, who can defend their position on what is reality and what is not?(!!!)?

Reality is Truth. It does not matter whether we believe or perceive something is real. Reality is true Objectivity I guess. I am only aware of some of this Reality, but I try to expand my understanding as best I can. If I am wrong or slightly off then I hope it does not cause harm to my self or others if possible. I observe Reality from my own subjective vantage point, which is why Science is appealing, because it offers the most Objective vantage point that so far I have encountered. All things are subject to change
unless they are immune to Time I think.

But what do I know?
What is your definition?
gmilam
QUOTE (Cq27+Mar 5 2008, 02:09 PM)
Now, who can defend their position on what is reality and what is not?(!!!)?

Most of the oldtimers around here are probably tired of hearing this anecdote... too bad.

When I was in college a guy told me that everything (myself included) was figment of his imagination and when he died the world would cease to exist.

Anyway, I noticed that he still looked both ways before crossing the parking lot to see if any of those cars that didn't exist were coming.
Cq27
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 5 2008, 09:15 PM)
But what do I know?
What is your definition?

Realities' just a word wink.gif
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Cq27+Mar 5 2008, 10:03 PM)
Realities' just a word wink.gif

A word without meaning?

Or is this Mensa?

tongue.gif
Cq27
dry.gif I meant that reality is what you perceive, and that the meaning of reality has no inherent value. dry.gif
Capracus
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 5 2008, 08:41 PM)
Well if it was the God of the Old Testament then I would have to decipher what this entities intentions were I suppose. If it meant Public Stoning and 24/7 Worship, then I guess I would probably end up being punished or my Soul tortured, I don't know. However If it was Jesus, then again I would have to listen and learn (if I am allowed) and try to decide whether or not this is the real thing. The New Testament is a welcome improvement from the Old, however this is where the concept of Heaven & Hell are introduced I believe (I'm not 100% certain of that) In this case I would already be in a kind of Hell, because this would be the end of our freedom.
In fact wouldn't this be Armageddon or Judgment day or something?
In which case most of us are screwed I guess.

And what would you do?
If the entity possessed the abilities of the Biblical god we would exist at it's mercy. Because of it's all knowing nature there could be no subversive resistance, defiance would have to be open and at your own risk. In any case we are all captives of life's circumstances, so for better or worse you'd be stuck with this new captor.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 5 2008, 10:54 PM)
If the entity possessed the abilities of the Biblical god we would exist at it's mercy. Because of it's all knowing nature there could be no subversive resistance, defiance would have to be open and at your own risk. In any case we are all captives of life's circumstances, so for better or worse you'd be stuck with this new captor.

This is why I not only find this God beyond difficult to believe in, but also am hopeful that due to the way Nature appears at least this is not the God as described that we might encounter.
The Biblical God would mean that we were no longer responsible for our actions. Infact nothing would be real. The world and universe would appear older than they were presumably to deceive us. Evolution would be an elaborate rouse and the Sun would indeed be orbiting a flat or bowl shaped Earth.
The list of changes would be mind boggling.
Also Satan would be real also. Great, that's all we need.

My question to the faithful would be:
Why would anyone want this to be true?
Cq27
If the old testament god is exactly as he is described, and Satan is his couterpart, I would be spending my time with Luci.
Squeeze
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 6 2008, 12:26 AM)
This is why I not only find this God beyond difficult to believe in, but also am hopeful that due to the way Nature appears at least this is not the God as described that we might encounter.
The Biblical God would mean that we were no longer responsible for our actions. Infact nothing would be real. The world and universe would appear older than they were presumably to deceive us. Evolution would be an elaborate rouse and the Sun would indeed be orbiting a flat or bowl shaped Earth.
The list of changes would be mind boggling.
Also Satan would be real also. Great, that's all we need.

My question to the faithful would be:
Why would anyone want this to be true?

Science is absorbed within God, and if there's anything left over there has to be a scientific explanation.


Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (Squeeze+Mar 6 2008, 12:58 PM)
Science is absorbed within God, and if there's anything left over there has to be a scientific explanation.

Hi Squeeze,

Could you elaborate on this for me please?

I am simply curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

Which God are you referring to?
How is Science absorbed within God?
How does such a process take place and how have you come to know it as fact?
Can you give me an example of 'anything left over' please?

Sorry to ask these questions but I think it would be important because, if what you state is true then we could all test the theory and know this for ourselves, Humanity that is.

Kind regards
PJParent001
Hello Cq27,

If God did everything for us, answered all of our prayers, do you suppose we would have evolved at all to ask such questions?




Squeeze
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 6 2008, 01:37 PM)
Hi Squeeze,

Could you elaborate on this for me please?

I am simply curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

Which God are you referring to?
How is Science absorbed within God?
How does such a process take place and how have you come to know it as fact?
Can you give me an example of 'anything left over' please?

Sorry to ask these questions but I think it would be important because, if what you state is true then we could all test the theory and know this for ourselves, Humanity that is.

Kind regards

I think what I mean is that God can not contradict science, that science and nature is an expression of God, that the bible and other religious books are no more than a search and not definitive proof of a God. Personally I think Jehovah, the "jealous" God of the bible was an alien. To the locals its abilities were seen as that of a God. And some of those abilities may have been the knowledge of how to create animate beings. In that respect science as we know it will possibly lead to the same understanding of the life force essence that can arise from inanimate stuff coming together. Have we gotten "into" the structre of this life force yet, its very essence? It may have involved DNA manipulation, or an ability to mix dna from different species and to produce other species. Whatever this Jehovah was good at doing, he didn't like what he ahd created, so the story goes. And yes, Satan got a bum deal. I'm quite interested in the Sumerian tales regarding that.

To me there is no such "person" called God. It isn't mr and mrs God as far as I'm concerned. God is a life force, each of us are God, all things that have life force are.
The means to bring life force are the natural consequences of such, that is, they are the necessary ingredients that will assemble. The desire for life is engrained within the properties of the universe.

When we say that we can account for life and the universe without the need of a God, it is like saying we are wading in the mud looking for mud. In that respect one cannot "find" God. One can only grow and follow the experience that is opening up before them, face the doubts, and I personally believe in reincarnation, in the same way that ice turns to water turns to gas.

I don't believe anything can exist without there being a reasonable scientific explanation for it. In that respect science is like the awakening of mankind. One minute we may say that science is disproving the need of a God, the next minute may well lead to the opposite conclusion. As I am not a believer that things came from nothing, to me, all that is and can ever be is God Life/Light force.

God doesn't "hear" prayers. Praying and having spiritual paths to follow are a way for people to wake up within themselves. The God bit they think they pray to is within them. With sufficient non-doubting desires and prayers, one can influence quantum
behavior and one can attract what it is they desire to manifest before them or within their experience. We practice this skill all the time, and apply it to various situations. Realization turns caos into order.

Again, we do nothing but follow spiritual paths, even if we are at the point of denying that. It is like spirit looking into spirit and not seeing it there, life force looking into life force, God looking into God. To me, one cannot run away from God. One will inevitably realize one day that they are in fact this God, a fractal in the great ocean of being.

Your question of me knowing this as fact is certainly one I don't know how to answer.
If the "fact" I believe in came to full fruition, then we would instantly recognize who and what we are and what our place is within existence. Again, to me, we are all testing this very thing and the satisfaction of knowing it within ourselves is the pull that keeps us striving.
photojack
QUOTE
As I am not a believer that things came from nothing, to me, all that is and can ever be is God Life/Light force.  With sufficient non-doubting desires and prayers, one can influence quantum behavior...  Again, we do nothing but follow spiritual paths, even if we are at the point of denying that. It is like spirit looking into spirit and not seeing it there, life force looking into life force, God looking into God. To me, one cannot run away from God. One will inevitably realize one day that they are in fact this God, a fractal in the great ocean of being.  Your question of me knowing this as fact is certainly one I don't know how to answer.
Squeeze quote.

You sure got that last sentence correct! ohmy.gif Science states that we evolved from lower life forms. Nowhere in science does it state that "things came from nothing!" There is no "God Life/Light force." It is a collective, and highly variable figment of people's imaginations! unsure.gif Atheists run away from God, gods, supernatural beliefs, talismans, idols, churches, religions, sects and cults. AND THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES! No gods hurtling thunderbolts at those who refuse to believe all that poppycock. ((laugh.gif)) The brainwashing and indoctrination of the sheep in the flocks of all the religions of the world is the most incomprehensible facet of mankind. wacko.gif The inconsistencies, rivalries and wildly varying ideologies point clearly to... NOTHING! No God, no "true" religions, no mystical "life force", just mass hallucinations. Science can explain the origin and evolution of life without ANY requirement for gods or the supernatural. cool.gif How does your intuition lead to supernatural beliefs? Mine certainly doesn't!
SCIENCE PREVAILS, RELIGION FAILS!
Cq27
QUOTE (PJParent001+Mar 6 2008, 08:41 AM)
Hello Cq27,

If God did everything for us, answered all of our prayers, do you suppose we would have evolved at all to ask such questions?

No, but why would we need to ask questions if there is an all knowing and all powerful being up there watching us? He could imbue us with knowledge, culture, art and all that other crap. We wouldn't need to learn it. If he's up there, he better have a d@mn good reason why I can't manipulate water with gestures/my mind.
Squeeze
QUOTE (photojack+Mar 6 2008, 05:38 PM)
Squeeze quote.

You sure got that last sentence correct! ohmy.gif Science states that we evolved from lower life forms. Nowhere in science does it state that "things came from nothing!" There is no "God Life/Light force." It is a collective, and highly variable figment of people's imaginations! unsure.gif Atheists run away from God, gods, supernatural beliefs, talismans, idols, churches, religions, sects and cults. AND THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES! No gods hurtling thunderbolts at those who refuse to believe all that poppycock. ((laugh.gif)) The brainwashing and indoctrination of the sheep in the flocks of all the religions of the world is the most incomprehensible facet of mankind. wacko.gif The inconsistencies, rivalries and wildly varying ideologies point clearly to... NOTHING! No God, no "true" religions, no mystical "life force", just mass hallucinations. Science can explain the origin and evolution of life without ANY requirement for gods or the supernatural. cool.gif How does your intuition lead to supernatural beliefs? Mine certainly doesn't!
SCIENCE PREVAILS, RELIGION FAILS!

Hey keep your thunderbolts. I said the same thing. Your path is your business.
My path sees science, doesn't committ to religions, and doesn't dismiss the idea of Creation/God. I say the same thing as you regarding the "running" away from idols and churches, sects and cults. God? I ponder it. Mind is still open. I prefer my opinions, to what I have read here from you. You're welcome to yours.

Yes, we evolve from lower life forms, so it seems when one look at the data open mindedly. Regardless of whether science has stated or not stated that something can or cannot come from nothing, the something that we know has come must have scientific basis. And nowhere have I read that that scientific basis has shown there is no God. We should withold that judgment for now.

Science has attempted to explain the appearance of life. It has a few theories that are plausible. But that does not provide an in-depth understanding of life and its essence. Building blocks do not always explain what it is that they have created. To me it is a cop out to pretend to understand the living process by undertsanding the conditions only. There's far more to understand than that.






Sinister Utopia
Hi Squeeze,

Thank you for your reply
In order for me to agree with much of what you posted I would have to suspend my current understanding of the Universe. (which is not very much) I do not understand what a Life force is for instance. There are many things observed in Nature which do not fall into our categorization of Alive yet they are spectacular. Our Sun is a marvel yet, does it contain a life force? You mention words like God and reincarnation and blend them in with known Scientific terms but we nobody knows what they really mean or if they exist. I think I understand what you mean regarding reincarnation but in my experience that term is another way of saying reconstitution.

You appear to be looking deeply into things, but appear to be trying to assert what is there based on Spiritual assumptions.
I am not opposed to this outlook in some respects and if only the 3 Main Religions could adopt a similar outlook, maybe they would cease to oppose Scientific discoveries and explanations and instead become a little more of a philosophical 'wait and see' 'lets try to find God' mindset. I think even the most hard nosed Atheist would be able to stomach this.

Unfortunately we know that the central theme of the 3 great dogmas cannot be that way now because they have based all their assumptions on previous ancient assumptions. They have cornered themselves within a cycle of reason which is difficult break out of. By asserting that not only is there definitely a God but also giving it personality (A really nasty one at that) From a rational perspective this seems highly unreasonable given that there is no evidence to back it up, yet I feel the Legacy is that Intelligent, modern minds are still vulnerable and fear that 'it just might be true, so I'd better be careful'

There comes a time when we will finally grow up as a species and stop treating this planet like a play pen waiting for dad to come home to take care of us.
We will suddenly realize that whilst it may be hard to face up to, we have to dry our eyes and tidy up the House. We are responsible for this Earth now. If we keep trying to see Dad in every plant pot or every trick of the light we are not looking forward and facing our true challenge.

Photojack's general point in his post is blunt and cynical but there is wisdom there.
There is so much to learn, but we will never understand it or fully appreciate it if once it is understood somebody asserts that Scientists have missed some spiritual component or a Supernatural ingredient of some kind. If you are certain that these things exist, then the best move would be to create some technology or experiment that can detect the spiritual or this Life force. You would no doubt win the Nobel prize and take Science into a new unknown realm of discovery. Until then though can you blame Scientists for being skeptical


Kind regards.

~GOD~
God loves us. smile.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (~GOD~+)
God loves us. smile.gif


Go away SHEOL. No one here likes or cares about you.
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (~GOD~+Mar 7 2008, 01:45 AM)
God loves us. smile.gif

Ahh, Hello God, turned up late again I see.

We don't need you anymore.
You will have to wait until we are dead and then you can no doubt have your sadistic eternal fun with us.

Until then...
BigDumbWeirdo
QUOTE (~GOD~+Mar 6 2008, 08:45 PM)
God loves us. smile.gif

That's it.
There's no way God would let this guy fake being Him.
I'm an atheist.
Richard Dawkins:1
Gerald Schroeder:0
Cq27
QUOTE (~GOD~+Mar 6 2008, 07:45 PM)
God loves us. smile.gif

>.< Unless you have something to add to the discussion, please don't post things that are stupid just to be posting. dry.gif

In other news, my thread just hit 4 pages! WOOT! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

And why won't anyone give me feedback?

That's not an invitation to give me bad feedback for no reason dry.gif
TheDoc
QUOTE (Cq27+)
Unless you have something to add to the discussion, please don't post things that are stupid just to be posting.


Just a heads up Cq: ~GOD~ is the reincarnation of the expelled troll SHEOL and has a long history of posting things and not backing them up. He has been banned from here four times since his original incarnation. I'd be careful of him if I were you.
Mind Fodder
this arguement is flawed from the start, because most religions never state they have facts....they claim faith.

they believe a thing, because they think its true (there are exceptions ie people who say their religion is the "truth") but they dont count because they will never think differently or even try.

someone brought up a point about why does God allow pain and suffering, and the answer is simple....without love, we couldnt have hate.....joy etc etc....and you dont need religion to know that, just take the buddhist yin/yang.

another fault in this debate is that people equate a God in human terms, giving it human atributes.

myself, i think religion (at its basic...ie throw out all religious books written by mankind, because anything penned by man is by default, flawed. even in science theories change as new information is revealed) and science are both "true"....i believe you can have evolution and a "god" at the same time, if you think of god in an abstract way as i stated above. even if you bring up the "didnt god make us in his image" question, i would say......we are still evolving, and who knows what the "final image" is.

religion will never have fact, and they will never try.....its faith.

i dont believe in organized religion as we see it everyday, but there still is room for science and a "god"



Squeeze
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 7 2008, 01:08 AM)
Hi Squeeze,

Thank you for your reply
In order for me to agree with much of what you posted I would have to suspend my current understanding of the Universe. (which is not very much) I do not understand what a Life force is for instance. There are many things observed in Nature which do not fall into our categorization of Alive yet they are spectacular. Our Sun is a marvel yet, does it contain a life force? You mention words like God and reincarnation and blend them in with known Scientific terms but we nobody knows what they really mean or if they exist. I think I understand what you mean regarding reincarnation but in my experience that term is another way of saying reconstitution.

You appear to be looking deeply into things, but appear to be trying to assert what is there based on Spiritual assumptions.
I am not opposed to this outlook in some respects and if only the 3 Main Religions could adopt a similar outlook, maybe they would cease to oppose Scientific discoveries and explanations and instead become a little more of a philosophical 'wait and see' 'lets try to find God' mindset. I think even the most hard nosed Atheist would be able to stomach this.

Unfortunately we know that the central theme of the 3 great dogmas cannot be that way now because they have based all their assumptions on previous ancient assumptions. They have cornered themselves within a cycle of reason which is difficult break out of. By asserting that not only is there definitely a God but also giving it personality (A really nasty one at that) From a rational perspective this seems highly unreasonable given that there is no evidence to back it up, yet I feel the Legacy is that Intelligent, modern minds are still vulnerable and fear that 'it just might be true, so I'd better be careful'

There comes a time when we will finally grow up as a species and stop treating this planet like a play pen waiting for dad to come home to take care of us.
We will suddenly realize that whilst it may be hard to face up to, we have to dry our eyes and tidy up the House. We are responsible for this Earth now. If we keep trying to see Dad in every plant pot or every trick of the light we are not looking forward and facing our true challenge.

Photojack's general point in his post is blunt and cynical but there is wisdom there.
There is so much to learn, but we will never understand it or fully appreciate it if once it is understood somebody asserts that Scientists have missed some spiritual component or a Supernatural ingredient of some kind. If you are certain that these things exist, then the best move would be to create some technology or experiment that can detect the spiritual or this Life force. You would no doubt win the Nobel prize and take Science into a new unknown realm of discovery. Until then though can you blame Scientists for being skeptical


Kind regards.

Thanks for your thought provoking response SU.

I've long thought that the 3 dogmas, as you put it, have shot themselves in the foot with their clinging to blind superstitious thought. I liken it to God giving me a choice between famous brands, Pepsi or Coke, then laughing loudly at me if I make the wrong choice (yep I strongly believe in free will at the moment). I do assume certain things yes, and lay myself open to having to prove what I say. Proof can be sought quantitatively, but also it can be no more than an intuition that one looks to provide proofs of. Obviously a lot of it is actually shaped by what one has read, and also by what one obviously hasn't read. Although there is a difference between following superstition, and maintaining a sometimes unconventional path for research.

I've read quite a bit on reincarnation. I've also pondered on how a 5 year old can memorize instantly and play some 50 tunes straight off on a piano, that no one taught him to play. My view of religion is that it is the dust that has settled on some actually precious things, if only we can see them with innocence again, for what they are and are trying to tell us. With the knowledge of the quantum world, and stories of how spiritual masters are able to achieve certain things (through meditation especially), I don't think research into what we may consider superhuman abilities is that cranky. In that respect, the less scientific dogma a thinker has the better (only sometimes).
I do appreciate there is a lot of silly conclusions reached by rather whacky people.

However, pound for pound, what I have witnessed over the last few months has helped me decide that I will also be open to pursue what a lot of people regard as pseudo-science at the moment. I agree that mainstream science is pretty accurate in a quantitative sense, but qualitatively things just do not add up. It boils down to a mismatch between qualitative aspirations and the passionately defended quantitative figures.

By life force, I think I mean something along the lines of vitalism, elan vital, chi. Something that is released on bodily death, and which as yet we cannot quantify.

Along those lines I am reading a book on the genome presently, that gives a great example of the difference between quantitative data and qualitative existence:

QUOTE

For humans at least, to live is to experience. How can we understand
this? One thing is clear: experience is grounded in matter. The connection
is there for us to draw. But drawing it is quite a complicated task.
And, alas, complexity is uncomfortable, so we are inclined to ignore
it. That tends to happen, for instance, when we try to tease out the
linkage between human experience and material reality. We say, ‘It’s
pretty simple, really’. But it isn't’t.

Introducing the Silmans

Consider an example. Before writing this page, I relaxed by listening
for the first time for a long time to one of my favourite pieces of
music: the piano trio in E-flat major by Schubert. I put the CD into
my player and lay down on the sofa. As the music entered the slow
movement, I cried.

The emotional effect of this piece of music, which I first heard live
in a concert, is always very strong. We must all have our favourite
pieces that have this effect on us. The effect does not always depend
on the music itself. It can also depend on the context, the people we
were with, and the significance of the event in our lives.
So, what caused me to cry?

Imagine some space travellers watching this scene. They are creatures
from a world in which silicon replaces carbon. So let’s call them
Silmans. They have some of the characteristics associated in science
fiction with ‘androids’. They notice the crying. They record the
sound waves in the room. As scientists, they trace the sequence of
cause and effect, back through the loudspeakers, the amplifiers, the
laser disc reader, right down to the CD itself.

One of them does a Silman version of ‘Eureka!’ ‘I’ve found it’, he
says, as he explains to his colleagues that the whole effect is caused by
some highly specific digital information on the CD. Another of the
Silmans is nevertheless sceptical. ‘How’, he says, ‘could just a bunch of
numbers have this effect?’

The discoverer counters the scepticism by pointing out that this is
the lowest level of the chain of cause and effect. Without the digital
information, there would be no music, no emotion. Moreover, if you
play around with that information, ‘mutate’ it as it were, by playing it
too fast or too slow, or playing it backwards, transposing sections, or
even transposing bits from another CD, then the person in the room
no longer cries. In fact he may angrily turn the machine off and even
throw the disc away.

There is an inevitable and mechanical chain of cause and effect
here. Any experiment the Silmans might do would reinforce the oneway
nature of this chain. Different amplifiers, speakers, and other
gadgetry can replace everything except the highly specific digital
information on the CD. Surely, then, they conclude that this is the
cause of me crying.

Of course, we know better. We would say that the causes of my
crying include:
• Schubert, because he wrote the music;
• the piano trio, because they played it with such heart-tugging
inspiration;
• and the beautiful context in which I first heard the music and
first cried as a result of it. This, we would say, is in my memory
and forms the emotional context.

We would say that the digital information on the CD is just a way of
capturing the moment, as accurately as possible, and making it
possible for me to recreate, partially at least, the original moment. We
know also that the information could be coded in many different
ways, including analogue encoding in the form of a vinyl disc. It is just
a database that enables the music to be stored and recreated.
In short, we would have no difficulty at all in laughing at the
stupidity of our Silman visitors from another planet. They saw a
simple explanation, we would say, and grabbed at it. How stupid!
Well, we should be careful whom we laugh at. For we, too, get trapped
in simplistic explanations.

DNA-mania

Indeed, there is a popular dogma that is reinforced daily in the
media––and, it must be said, by many scientists––that rests on a crude
mistake, just like the Silmans’. André Pichot1 has called this DNAmania.
It is the delusion that the DNA code ‘causes’ life in much the
same way as the CD ‘caused’ my experience of the Schubert piano
trio.

The analogy is obvious. The human genome is in some ways a little
like a CD. It carries digital information. Let’s quickly summarise how.
The genome is all the chromosomes in a cell. A chromosome is a long
DNA molecule and some associated proteins. It is conventionally
divided into genes. A gene is a section of DNA that is used in
producing a particular protein.

DNA is composed of four chemicals (nucleotides), generally
referred to by the letters A, T, G, and C.2 There are two strands of
DNA in each chromosome, wrapped around each other in a
double helix. It was the discovery of this double helical structure that
formed Watson and Crick’s Nobel Prize-winning work in 1953. The
nucleotides in one strand always lie opposite those in the other
according to the rule: A goes opposite T, G opposite C. Two such
complementary nucleotides make a base pair. The genome is 3 billion
base pairs long. These form 20 000–30 000 genes.

In each gene, the chemicals are arranged in specific ways to
facilitate the production of specific proteins. Every time a protein is
needed, the appropriate chemical ‘code’ is ‘read off’ the gene; this
gives the pattern of chemical elements that will make that protein
what it is. Our genes encode the sequences of the 100 000 or so
proteins that make up the human body. No protein is made that is not
coded for by a gene. So the genome is important. After all, proteins
are crucial for life.

A living cell is a continuing, action-packed drama. Molecules
interact and change. One change triggers another, and so on and on.
Complex chains of molecular interaction happen again and again. We
call them ‘pathways’. There are cell cycle pathways, which correspond
to the cell ‘ticking over’. There are developmental pathways,
because cells grow, divide, and form more cells. There are all sorts of
regulatory pathways. And proteins form the backbone of all these
biochemical pathways.

Cells organise into tissues, such as skin, bone, muscle, to form
organs such as the heart and kidneys, and finally, all these, together
with the immune and hormonal systems, form the organism, the
whole animal. This operates in many different ways, at various levels
of organisation. And all of this ‘function’, as biologists say, involves
proteins.

The causality seems to be entirely one-way. The DNA causes the
proteins, the proteins cause the cells, and so on. The organism itself is
just what shows on the outside; what is really happening, the inside
story, is that the information coded in the genes is being expressed. In
biologist-speak, the phenotype is ‘created by’ the genotype. The story
is seductive.

We have fitted ourselves out with a magnificent set of blinkers. We
have rendered ourselves incapable of looking at the relationships
between the genetic code and living systems in any other way.
This chapter asks why.

• Why are we so fond of the gene-centred view? We can explore
this question by examining a classic and very popular statement
of this view––Dawkins’ 1976 description of the ‘selfish gene’.

• How did so many people come to interpret this view as genetic
determinism? That question is particularly important since, as I
will show, it is not that of Dawkins himself. Let us then explore
the historical context, out of which DNA-mania has developed.
We start with the reductionist causal chain. This is the ‘inside story’
that we have just discussed.

The chain runs upwards. It is a ‘one-way’ system, from the genes to
the organism. The idea is that, if we knew all about the lowest-level
elements, genes and proteins, then everything about the organism
would be clear to us. We could work out what happens at the higher
levels, and explain it completely, in terms of our low-level knowledge.
We could reconstruct the whole organism from the bottom up.

The first step in the chain is fainter than the others because it
represents a rather different causal relationship. At each stage above
this one, we are talking about physical causes––how one chemical
reaction leads to another. But at the first stage something different is
happening, over and above the physical causation of the chemical
reactions involved. It is generally described as the reading of a
code. There is transcription and translation of the code. This code is
sometimes called the blueprint of life, or the program of life, following
Monod and Jacob’s colourful idea of ‘le programme génétique’
(Monod and Jacob 1961; Jacob 1970).

So much for the diagram. The problem with it is that it shows only
half the story. When we get to Chapter 4, we shall see how much it
misses out. But for the moment let us assume it is as comprehensive as
it is supposed to be.

On that assumption, then, let us ask: does the causal mechanism
work in the way that is represented here? By no means!

Problems with genetic determinism

Genes are coded as DNA sequences. It is these sequences that are
replicated and passed on to future generations. So biologists also call
genes replicators. Gene determinism somehow sees them as causal
agents. How can that be? After all, what does DNA do? As biological
molecules go, not much. The real players in the action of life are the
proteins. They are the really active molecules. They indulge most in
the biochemical processes necessary for life to occur. DNA is in
comparison rather passive.

Proteins are produced in tiny factories inside the cells of the body.
Biologists call them ribosomes. These factories get going when they
receive a message that ‘tells’ them to make a certain protein. Each
such message is generated using DNA. A DNA sequence that corresponds
to the relevant protein sequence is copied onto another molecule,
appropriately called a ‘messenger’, which transmits a form of
the sequence to the ribosomes. The messenger molecules, called messenger
RNA (ribonucleic acid), are another kind of nucleic acid
sequence. The DNA sequences are therefore a kind of template, a
specific sequence of nucleotides that can be transcribed to produce
the message that is then translated into an amino-acid sequence when
the protein is made. (Amino acids are the units of which protein is
composed, just as nucleotides are the units of which DNA is
composed.)

That process is called ‘gene expression’. This terminology gives the
impression that the whole process is implicit in the gene, or at least in
the information that the gene holds, which simply needs to be
‘expressed’.

But it is a little odd to say, as we often do, that the DNA sequence
‘determines’ the protein. In fact, the DNA just sits there, and
occasionally the cell reads off from it a sequence that it needs, in order
to get some protein produced. This looks very much like my hi-fi
equipment reading the digital information on a CD to generate the
real ‘action’: the music. So the first step in the reductionist chain of
cause and effect is not a simple causal event at all. When a sequence is
read off, that is an important event, which initiates a whole series of
subsequent events. These are physical events. True. But it is the
process of reading that matters, as well as the object that is read.
This process involves certain systems of proteins. If we wish to
identify an agent of the action, it must be those systems. They ‘read’
the DNA code. DNA does nothing outside the context of a cell3
containing these protein systems, just as the CD can do nothing
without the CD reader. So, we have the paradox that proteins are
required for the machinery to read the code to produce the proteins. I
will return to this paradox in later chapters.

From "the Music of Life - Biology beyond the genome" Denis Noble





Sinister Utopia
Hi Squeeze,

That's an interesting quote. Some great points raised.

It is always important that Science does not become complacent.
Equally though I think It's also fair to recognize that we are very fortunate to live in the age where the Genome has finally been mapped. It was always a point of contention whether it could ever be done or not. Well we have the answer, many died ignorant.
But we should try an appreciate the difficulties and complexities involved.
I am confident that in the future many of the unknown quantities an elements will be better understood. These things take time. If the Genome project taught us anything is that sometimes in Science you have to have a little faith. wink.gif

Kind regards
~GOD~
God is coming back soon. smile.gif
Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (~GOD~+Mar 8 2008, 05:00 AM)
God is coming back soon. smile.gif

Well whoopie S**t dry.gif
Gorgeous
QUOTE (~GOD~+Mar 8 2008, 05:00 AM)
God is coming back soon. smile.gif

Where has he been? - To hell for a holiday?


g.
amrit
god is universe
universe is god

http://www.wbabin.net/sorli/sorli7.pdf

Sinister Utopia
QUOTE (amrit+Mar 8 2008, 01:36 PM)
god is universe
universe is god

http://www.wbabin.net/sorli/sorli7.pdf

Universe is Universe
God is unknown or Human Construct
Cq27
QUOTE (~GOD~+Mar 7 2008, 11:00 PM)
God is coming back soon. smile.gif

Whoopdefuckingdoo.
TheDoc
QUOTE (amrit+)
god is universe
universe is god


amrit is dumb
dumb is amrit
PuckSR
QUOTE
God is coming back soon. smile.gif


Thanks for announcing my arrival
I am back now
RealityCheck

hehehe.
iseason
Hi Squeese.

That was an interesting perspective. I enjoyed it . It is absolutely true that cause can only ever give a limited view of reality. Several barriers stand in it's way, of which, perspective seems to be the greatest.
Perspective can only be a measurement. It can only measure within the limits that it defines, which also means that these limits will change and evolve as acceptable theory becomes popular or loses favor.
I knew there was something in this , but never really knew what or why . Religion certainly wasn't honest about where it was going and having spent a number of nights questioning in forums like this, science may be doing better , but falls for the same trap.
"Measuring Heaven" OR "measuring reality" end in the same frustration really. The true answers are for future generations , if at all. But what I see can be done is a measure of ENERGY.
Quantum kinda goes there , but wants to measure LOTS of packets of energy, only energy isn't there when they want to measure it, so it is measured as a statistic. "This much energy will be here if I measure this like this". And of course, they are correct.
I could do the same by saying that the moon will be here on this date and the tide will be so high. Both are very useful measurements, but both rely on defined limitations which are statistically constant. They can predict a future which is highly reliant on "things always doing what they are now." And are statistically correct.

But Perspectives can be useful, perhaps even the most vital part of measuring the universe. 'If the universal is causal' , then 'something happened' .
If it isn't causal , then something WAS. The perspective in this is important. Time is a measurement in a causal view, with motion and space creating an illusion that energy is multiple, vast , and recurring.
Even allowing multiple energy packets,'something' still needs to Happen in order to explain space and motion. Time does this very well, and explains everything but itself.For time to make sense of motion and space , it cannot separate itself from the energy perspective unless it strands all three(four , if you count energy). Therefore, we should do just that. Measure any of the basics and see if they exist at all.Of course they cannot, so energy cannot exist as anything but a measuring of an event.
The limits that you place on the measurement will impact the result. The shutter speed(of your perspective ) will measure the snapshot you take away.What science is trying to do is to give us the MOST COMMON SNAPSHOT that affects us. This is good and correct, at least as it relates to everyday things But it cannot measure everything without bias, since it cannot have an all encompassing viewpoint. It cannot even give us the smallest depth to be plumbed nor can it realistically give us the biggest, the longest time, shortest measure of travel and so on.

This will forever be a hall of mirrors, but not because science is not great at "snapshots" , but because we need things discovered to have apparent usages and something that does nothing, cannot be measured and cannot be seen as useful. (for that you need lots of them moving about and banging into each other) Today you quote about comparisons with Cd's,while in years gone by it would have been stones in a pathway,and in the future perhaps Elvis's DNA may make one last concert for "The restaurant at the end of the universe".
What ever happens, the event we see as time and space will be "Whole". infinity only exists in time and time regards it as impossible (by the nature of the measure).So we'll see , or won't see what the future holds.

Cheers
Iseason
Cq27
iseason,

Truly your speech is heart-warming, yet finger numbing at the same time. I feel proud to live in an era when we can at least realize that we don't have a shadow of a clue as to what's going on. But it makes you think as to what we're going to do to really get a hold of what's making what happen.
Reality is just a word. There really is no one reality that should be taken as the one that we must see the universe in. I mean, UV light can't be seen with the naked eye, so imagine what we could see if we saw UV all the time?
To me, you're just a simulation. You're not like me. I have trains of thought that can be seen, I know what goes on in my mind. But you're to me ( as I are to you ) a rock, something that reacts to the elements but doesn't really have a mind.
Don't take this as an insult, because I realize that ( if I'm not in a coma and this is my imagination giving me a fake life ) I'm just like a computer program to you, something that reacts to as a constant.


Ciao,
Cq27
iseason
QUOTE (Cq27+Mar 11 2008, 02:45 PM)
iseason,

Truly your speech is heart-warming, yet finger numbing at the same time. I feel proud to live in an era when we can at least realize that we don't have a shadow of a clue as to what's going on. But it makes you think as to what we're going to do to really get a hold of what's making what happen.
Reality is just a word. There really is no one reality that should be taken as the one that we must see the universe in. I mean, UV light can't be seen with the naked eye, so imagine what we could see if we saw UV all the time?
To me, you're just a simulation. You're not like me. I have trains of thought that can be seen, I know what goes on in my mind. But you're to me ( as I are to you ) a rock, something that reacts to the elements but doesn't really have a mind.
Don't take this as an insult, because I realize that ( if I'm not in a coma and this is my imagination giving me a fake life ) I'm just like a computer program to you, something that reacts to as a constant.


Ciao,
Cq27

Cq27

My post wasn't about religion or science. But perspective.

The end result in a time line, gives a correct measure of the occurrences only from differing points of view. "halfway through" or From here. What I am trying to say is that we are seeing a completed "time and space model" , but from within and dependant on position, motion,mass.

Since we cannot know it's edges from where we are, we cannot accurately define it.(whether by constants or not.) one thing we can do is accept that a completed reality can be made to do things that an incomplete model cannot.

There is 'limit on energy"

But where would you set it? I have seen great arguments following causality back to a single unit.......So , OK , one or singular makes sense when you use snapshots. But it doesn't go with a time line........So you use many snapshots....

But you only had one?

try again , in the end you must start at a completed picture of time and space which has the same energy no matter how you measure it........

And that can only come from a singular energy.
This now means that my experiences affect, and are affected by everyone elses experiences. Although our lives are different, our usage of this energy creates independent action that we like to see as free will. Perspective drove our ancestors to view laws and actions in different ways to how we perceive them today, but we are just as affected by their lives as our lives today will have affected them.

the energy must be evenly distributed throughout time and space, so we can affect the past (and must) just as they affected the future.

Cheers
Iseason
Cq27
iseason,

Terribly sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. I'm new, so if there's a discussion about snapshots... I'm at a loss.
You say you're talking about perspective. Are you using the universe as an example, or our decisions as an example? Or do you using both to describe the other?
Perspective is... useful, to say the least. Our lives depend on it. I don't mean we're going die, but it's who we are and how we function. Almost all arguments revolve around one's perspective.

Anyway, could you please clarify? My understanding of your post is limited.


Ciao,
Cq27
iseason
Cq27
Welcome then.

If you look for the smallest energy, following logic and causality, it needs be singular and indivisible.When you do this , you can say that it is all the energy there ever was or ever will be. (otherwise, if two things exist, something happened).
By the same logic, if this is truly indivisible, then you are also looking at the largest and only thing that exists and ever will exist.

By necessity, there are things we see today that are missing.

1. Motion
2. Space
3. Time

IF this particular view was correct,then there would be no difference between seeing it as a beginning (smallest energy) or the ending (universal ). Time , Motion and space can be snapshots within the particle parameters. In other words, the value of the particle never changes from one or whole no matter how or where you measure it.

The view we have of energy has more to do with measuring the occurrence or variation of the particle. This is like using one electron to light up a ball park by having a super fast cycle that we can't discern.
Perspective is the greatest variance, and means that time gets layered rather than moves in any particular direction.By doing this , every position , whether via time or space is depend ant on the sum total of every nanoseconds worth of universe equal ling one.(nanosecond is just a figure).

Why is that important? Because otherwise motion puts energy into different timezones according to E=Mc2 and that will mean energy is not as predicted. If I COULD move fast enough, the past would have more energy than the future.

Cheers
Iseason








Gorgeous
Humans create the 'division' with concept. ("The description is not the described." - J. Krishnamurti)

There is only Space which includes aspects of Motion.

If we personally want to 'see' 'more' than this, we must create an illusory 'division' to do so. This will, inevitably, be of a contradictory nature, and thus attempt to 'separate' a Reality that cannot, in fact, be separated.




g.
iseason
QUOTE (Gorgeous+Mar 12 2008, 10:48 PM)
Humans create the 'division' with concept. ("The description is not the described." - J. Krishnamurti)

There is only Space which includes aspects of Motion.

If we personally want to 'see' 'more' than this, we must create an illusory 'division' to do so. This will, inevitably, be of a contradictory nature, and thus attempt to 'separate' a Reality that cannot, in fact, be separated.




g.

g
Given that motion(however small or large) is governed by e=Mc2, any change in position,changes the time and space I inhabit. This means that if I assume the earth is stationary(just so I don't take all of space into account as well), Running north for five minutes = my mass and energy has shifted five minutes north. This may be three point five minutes earlier than i would have been , had I walked.

How could the universe predict that I would do this and have energy available in the correct quanta, and how could it recompense the position I had just left for the energy shift?

1 I can take energy with me.
No. I can move the position of the energy, but I cannot take time away from the original location. What happens to the time of the original location? Did it have less now?
2 What about the space I was occupying ? Did the space I moved through transport itself backwards to fill the gap I left?

Layering time negates this need. Every position equals the value of one and does that only once.it is a measure of every other thing that exists at the time the measure is taken, so at any point mass can be scattered, but still add up to one.
Running from one point to another does indeed affect the original position, but at the perspectives level,both positions were inhabited equally when time began to have an effect by our measuring it.In other words , they both "were'.
Time wasn't there until they became interesting to someone/thing.

It's like painting a picture in colors we cannot see until the last layer is placed. The foundation layers are created one pixel at a time and create a portion of any nanosecond.Only when the final layer is added does time now begin , since the order of the last layer must ensure the final correct even distribution of reality.

Once finished, Motion and time and space depend on perspective....Where am I? how much mass? how fast am I travelling?. These control how much of the picture I am part of ..

another person will be tied into another part of the same picture.They move according to the same rule. Go here,affect there. Unless they have this affect, energy will no be constant in time. Which , apart from ourselves is absorbed by the huge sponge or the universe that also uses motion to be in the correct position to make the universe add to one, no matter what I do.

Cheers
Iseason
Gorgeous
QUOTE
...any change in position,changes the time and space I inhabit. This means that if I assume the earth is stationary...


Contradictory, thus wrong. The Earth is also Space-Motion, so assuming it to be 'stationary' will start you off on the same wrong foot you intentionally choose to always lead with.



You are of course at liberty to assume anything you so wish. But why try to pass it off as science, or even Real?




Happy fantasizing!


g.
iseason
g

Then I must assume you to be against any form of constant or measurement, because every one of them relies on a snapshot view of reality.

If I measure an apple, I assume it to be stationary
If I measure a galaxy, I do so as if the universe was not around it.(unless I am measuring the effect of the surroundings)...

Stop trying to just bag everything and perhaps you'll make more sense.

Cheers
Iseason
Gorgeous
QUOTE
Then I must assume you to be against any form of constant or measurement, because every one of them relies on a snapshot view of reality.


Yes, you do assume, and continue to do so wrongly.

As Cq27 has already adequately stated, it is a question, like most things, of perspective. It is not an overly simple 'yes' or 'no' situation. If you choose to use measurement, you must be aware of the limitations and uses of such an action. Measurement is a Human construction, littered with all of the 'nuances' that Humans are. If you 'rely on a snapshot view of reality', does this accurately represent a Reality that we know to be in Motion?


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Then I must assume you to be against any form of constant or measurement, because every one of them relies on a snapshot view of reality.


Yes, you do assume, and continue to do so wrongly.

As Cq27 has already adequately stated, it is a question, like most things, of perspective. It is not an overly simple 'yes' or 'no' situation. If you choose to use measurement, you must be aware of the limitations and uses of such an action. Measurement is a Human construction, littered with all of the 'nuances' that Humans are. If you 'rely on a snapshot view of reality', does this accurately represent a Reality that we know to be in Motion?


If I measure an apple, I assume it to be stationary


smile.gif Nice and convenient for you! In Reality, however, nothing is ever truly 'stationary'. Apart from that, it is also apparent from this statement that it is in fact YOU who uses the 'snapshot' method!


QUOTE
If I measure a galaxy, I do so as if the universe was not around it.


Please don't do that. You are a Human being, and deserve to give yourself more respect than that.



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If I measure a galaxy, I do so as if the universe was not around it.


Please don't do that. You are a Human being, and deserve to give yourself more respect than that.



Stop trying to just bag everything and perhaps you'll make more sense.


Stop assuming that I am trying to 'bag everything', and sense may come to you quite Naturally! But how will you recognise it, if it does? Do you also assume that 'sense' will be something that you already know?

Or, is it that you just wish I would choose to agree with your assuming opinions?




g.
iseason
ah
G

Always a pleasure for you i'm sure.

Cheers
Iseason
Gorgeous
QUOTE (iseason+Mar 18 2008, 09:45 AM)
ah
G

Always a pleasure for you i'm sure.

Cheers
Iseason

No, I think you are still assuming!


g.
xtrmn8r
Where angels no longer fear to tread

QUOTE
Science and religion have often been at loggerheads. Now the former has decided to resolve the problem by trying to explain the existence of the latter


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Science and religion have often been at loggerheads. Now the former has decided to resolve the problem by trying to explain the existence of the latter


“Explaining Religion”, as the project is known, is the largest-ever scientific study of the subject. It began last September, will run for three years, and involves scholars from 14 universities and a range of disciplines from psychology to economics. And it is merely the latest manifestation of a growing tendency for science to poke its nose into the God business.


Do you think science should even try to explain god?


http://www.economist.com/science/displayst...ory_id=10875666
Edward 3
This is not a case of science trying to explain god - it is science investigating religion - helluva difference
xtrmn8r
Edward 3

QUOTE
  This is not a case of science trying to explain god - it is science investigating religion - helluva difference


Yes, the article regards religion but my question still stands. Should science attempt to explain god?
Edward 3
Fair question - I consider science to be the study of the structure and processes underlying the physical world. Based on this definition, god would not be an appropriate subject for scientific study.
regards
edward 3
iseason
QUOTE (Edward 3+Mar 23 2008, 11:24 AM)
Fair question - I consider science to be the study of the structure and processes underlying the physical world. Based on this definition, god would not be an appropriate subject for scientific study.
regards
edward 3

Why should the two subjects be so mutually exclusive? If science COULD explain God, then it has an obligation to do so. If religion can see God in science, IT TOO has the same responsibility.

Religion saw science first. What you want to do is say "WE were never like THAT " . Well , FESS UP, you are a branch of a religious order that uses a different methodology to explain your environment..........That's all !! Yours (and rightly) has a more accepted methodology that suits modern research.

Cheers
Iseason
mudderrunner
religion has no methodology. Science has methodology. ...hence mutually exclusive.
iseason
QUOTE (mudderrunner+Mar 23 2008, 12:01 PM)
religion has no methodology. Science has methodology. ...hence mutually exclusive.

Then religion could not have got past stage one..control environments...

you answer lacks sense, partly because you use the term "has". Which I take you to mean "anymore". You are still wrong..

Religion has enough methodology to do what it sets as it's goals in today's environment. In my opinion , that goal is the same as many politicians, once again. 'control'.

If you think you are arguing with someone who likes organized religion, think again!!. But I will always argue with people who simply "bag the process" .
That's one of the most base instincts of humankind and puts people in the bottom rungs in terms of honest assessment value..

Have a nice day smile.gif

Iseason
photojack
From the "Superstitious Pigeon" video posted earlier:

"If you believe in the mystical pattern you've imposed on reality, you call yourself spiritual!" Richard Dawkins from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHqu7VMAcZc

And if, as a scientist, as Dawkins is, you don't believe such hogwash and think there are no mystical or supernatural beings, it can lead to this:

QUOTE
Jason Slone, a professor of religious studies at Webster University in St Louis, argues that people who are religious will be seen as more likely to be faithful and to help in parenting than those who are not. That makes them desirable as mates. He plans to conduct experiments designed to find out whether this is so. And, slightly tongue in cheek, Dr Wilson quips that “secularism is very maladaptive biologically. We're the ones who at best are having only two kids. Religious people are the ones who aren't smoking and drinking, and are living longer and having the health benefits.”

That quip, though, makes an intriguing point. Evolutionary biologists tend to be atheists, and most would be surprised if the scientific investigation of religion did not end up supporting their point of view. But if a propensity to religious behaviour really is an evolved trait, then they have talked themselves into a position where they cannot benefit from it, much as a skeptic cannot benefit from the placebo effect of homeopathy. Maybe, therefore, it is God who will have the last laugh after all—whether He actually exists or not.
From: http://www.economist.com/science/displayst...ory_id=10875666

I would rather take the "maladaptive", but true option and then educate mankind to overcome its drawbacks, than to have blind faith in myths and deception and HOPE you get the last laugh! ((laugh.gif)) In reality, the outcome of this massive European study will put to rest all religious myths once and for all... but only for scientists! blink.gif The indoctrinated masses will sadly continue to proselytize their children and perpetuate this hogwash for many generations hence. ph34r.gif
Sinister Utopia

QUOTE
If science COULD explain God, then it has an obligation to do so. If religion can see God in science, IT TOO has the same responsibility.


Fair point.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If science COULD explain God, then it has an obligation to do so. If religion can see God in science, IT TOO has the same responsibility.


Fair point.


    Religion saw science first. What you want to do is say "WE were never like THAT " . Well , FESS UP, you are a branch of a religious order that uses a different methodology to explain your environment..........That's all  !!  Yours (and rightly) has a more accepted methodology that suits modern research.


I don't see how you equate that Religion saw Science first. Perhaps it was instrumental in the refinement, betterment etc of Science but are you discounting the foundation on which it was built? (IMO) the shaping and deliberate sharpening of an arrow head is not that different from the study of aero-dynamics. Both require method, experimentation,
technology etc. One tries to design the best shape for an aircraft to travel through the Air etc, and the other, the best shape to cut through flesh. Perhaps a fat end on the spear would only bludgeon prey and would not stick in, so they designed a better shape. The better the results with whatever shape becomes knowledge that can be passed on to others, benefiting from previous empirical evidence and so on. That was Science performed long before any known Religion. Not to mention fire.

Regards
iseason
QUOTE (Sinister Utopia+Mar 25 2008, 03:34 PM)

Fair point.



I don't see how you equate that Religion saw Science first. Perhaps it was instrumental in the refinement, betterment etc of Science but are you discounting the foundation on which it was built? (IMO) the shaping and deliberate sharpening of an arrow head is not that different from the study of aero-dynamics. Both require method, experimentation,
technology etc. One tries to design the best shape for an aircraft to travel through the Air etc, and the other, the best shape to cut through flesh. Perhaps a fat end on the spear would only bludgeon prey and would not stick in, so they designed a better shape. The better the results with whatever shape becomes knowledge that can be passed on to others, benefiting from previous empirical evidence and so on. That was Science performed long before any known Religion. Not to mention fire.

Regards

S I

We could split hairs forever about what determines the differences between science and religion. To answer your point about arrow heads, (pun intended), African pygmies and Bushmen refined the process by adding poison. But alongside this they also believed in a spiritual kinship with the animals they killed. This lead to a variety of ways to honour the spirits of their kill.

What it caused was a respect for the Creatures they hunted and was taught in stories , dances and songs to pass the information down through the generations. Spiritualism was very intrigul in keeping science as a common everyday way of life.

Even today, Lessons are best taught with similar methodology. My eight year old twins get taught in the same way. The spiritual , mystical side of teaching has been removed, but only in regards to any type of classical religion. Teaching is still allowed to use indigenous peoples legends in the classroom.

So learning and teaching methods have actually returned from a purely technical methodology to play style teaching which uses the students imagination. Even in business, a return to participation "trust" and "role play" based teaching is not at all new.

There is a very good reason for this. What we learn and entrench better as if in play can be the strings that hold the facts together. So talking a blindfolded person through a maze is a good way to instill "team work " between otherwise rival players/workers.

This is not something that science has learned for itself, but something it has learned from methodology that originates in ritualism. So the origins of learning are way too mixed up to say anything was purely scientific or religious. Hindsight is a wonderful thing when making claims about who is right about about what , but unless science can do things without using any of the methodology taught it during the last ten thousand years or so,it can not claim the high ground.....

It is now doing many things that have not been seen before,but with the surety of process that was faith not so long ago.

Cheers
Iseason
Gorgeous
Only the science of Psychology can tell us what 'god' is, as it does not exist outside of the mind of Man.



g.
deadbeat
Hello again you all.

Been away awhile, but I see you have been busy. Interesting thread.

Science has nothing to do with God. (Well HARD science anyway). Here again we see confusion of not knowing the difference. Science which does not fully conform to the scientific method is no more authoritative or evidentially proven than religion. Like Evolutionary Psychology which is simply an Atheistic attempt to eliminate religion, but it itself becomes its own religion of Atheism.

Sir Isaac Newton, one of the most profound and intellectually gifted men in history, was deeply religious. Many many others were and are.

Science and religion deal in different regimes. What does blue taste like? What color is happiness? You must first make the disinction between subjective and objective, and then the dividing line starts to appear, and the confusion begins to clear.
Grumpy
deadbeat

Newton was also a devoted Alchemist as well. He was as flawed as any other man. Einstein himself never accepted Quantum mechanics and believed the Universe to be eternal, infinite and static, he too was as flawed as you or I. We revere those insights they had because they have stood the tests of time and of the scientific method, just as Darwin's insights have. They are accepted as scientific truths because they have proven time and again to be true, and never have they been falsified, though they have been expanded upon, given new knowledge.

Grumpy cool.gif
deadbeat
Indeed Grumpy, absolutely.

Just trying to demonstrate participation in both arenas is not just possible, but can be successful and effective.

The problem I see throughout this thread, is that Atheists, or anti-religionists, whatever their stripe or self professed moral code, continue to be confused.

Religion (even Atheism) is based on belief and faith. Science (well HARD science anyway) is based on preponderance of proof and fact. People who believe anything DESPITE proponderance of proof or fact are not religious, they are deluded, and in my humble opinion, stupid, oft-times willfully so. But Atheists continue to try to use science as a weapon against religion, and see it as somehow affirming or proving their own religion.

But you need not be that way to be religious. I am not, and yet, I am Roman Catholic, as you may remember.
Grumpy
deadbeat

QUOTE
The problem I see throughout this thread, is that Atheists, or anti-religionists, whatever their stripe or self professed moral code, continue to be confused.

Religion (even Atheism) is based on belief and faith. Science (well HARD science anyway) is based on preponderance of proof and fact. People who believe anything DESPITE proponderance of proof or fact are not religious, they are deluded, and in my humble opinion, stupid, oft-times willfully so. But Atheists continue to try to use science as a weapon against religion, and see it as somehow affirming or proving their own religion.

But you need not be that way to be religious. I am not, and yet, I am Roman Catholic, as you may remember.


Atheism cannot be a religion, though it can be a philosophy. Religion is BELIEF in things you have no evidence for, Atheism is the refusal to do so, they are not the same thing(no matter how hard theists try to insist that they are). Theists seem to have an inferiority complex that makes them try to make all others seem to be