Neil Farbstein
26th February 2008 - 11:46 PM
QUOTE (mr_homm+Feb 26 2008, 09:42 PM)
Hi kolahal_b,
Here is the text of the more detailed question you sent to me, so that everyone can see both the question and the answer.
The proof that the momentum operator is hermitian, which uses integration by parts, DOES FAIL when the wave functions do not vanish at infinity. However, that by itself does not mean that the conclusion is false, only that this proof did not work.
It is not correct to say that the momentum operator is hermitian only for normalized functions, because that assumption is too strong. The proof using integration by parts works as long as the term evaluating the product of the functions vanishes. This is certainly true for normalized functions, since if this limit did not vanish, they could not have a finite square integral. Of course, if you take a normalized function and multiply it by an arbitrary constant, it will no longer be normalized, but it will still work in the proof. So your professor is certainly wrong on that point, although that is not the major question here.
I think it IS true that if all the eigenvalues are real then the operator is hermitian. (Write both sides of <Φ* | Ψ> as sums of eigenstates of the operator, so it becomes a doubly indexed sum. Then each term is either zero or < Ψ_i | Ψ_j>. Inserting the operator on either the right or the left of each term produces the same value, since the eigenvalue is real. Therefore the operator can be in either the bra or the ket, with the same result, so it is hermitian.)
The real question here is about the application of operators to functions that do not vanish at infinity. The wave functions in quantum mechanics are supposed to be in a Hilbert space, which requires that the inner product be defined. Since this inner product is computed by integration, the requirement is that wave functions must be L2 functions. The Hilbert space of quantum mechanics is basically a space of L2 functions. The trouble is that the eigenfunctions of the momentum operator are NOT L2 functions, because their norm is infinite. They are limits of L2 functions, in the sense that you can take exp(ikx) and multiply it by a gaussian function to make it have a finite norm, which puts it inside the Hilbert space, then take the limit as the width of the gaussian goes to infinity, to get back the original exp(ikx).
Should these functions be excluded from quantum mechanics then? I don't think so; they simply require more careful handling than functions with a finite norm. One way to do this is to treat them not as functions but as "distributions," which basically means to think of them as operators on a DIFFERENT set of functions called the "test functions." That way, if you can prove a certain property is true when you try it out on every test function, then you can say it is true for your wave function. This is very similar to the way you prove things about operators: you show that the property is true for any function that the operator acts on, and then from that you conclude that the property is true of the operator itself. This is just how hermiticity is usually checked.
For the question you have right now, let's try this: suppose you insert the function exp(-x^2 / 2s^2) next to each of Φ and Ψ in the integral. Here, s is the standard deviation of the gaussian function. Now do the integration by parts calculation again, taking care to use the product rule. You will now find extra terms that involve the derivative of the gaussian, and these terms will have a factor of 1/s^2 in them. Consider the case where s is taken very large (not infinity). Then the terms with 1/s^2 become very small compared to the other two terms; all the terms are growing if the Φ and Ψ do not vanish at infinity, but these terms become negligible compared to the terms with ∂Φ*/∂x and ∂Ψ/∂x. Therefore, for very large s, the hermiticity condition is approximately true, and as s grows, the condition is satisfied more and more closely. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to say that in the limit, even though the integrals themselves diverge, there is a sense in which hermiticity is true.
So you see it is really a mathematical question more than a physical one. Dealing with function spaces and distributions is rather technical, and your professor perhaps does not want to spend the time to go into it deeply.
Hope that helps!
--Stuart Anderson
What degree do you have stuart? Do you know laser fusion or ultraintense pulse physics?
kolahal_b
27th February 2008 - 01:22 AM
Mr. Neil Farbstein, till now I have not read what mr homm has written.But anyway, please DO NOT try to abuse him.He is the best teacher here in this subforum. There is no relevance of the words "qualification" or "degree" for a teacher like him.
mr_homm
27th February 2008 - 03:40 AM
@kolahal_b,
I am glad you find my posts useful, and thanks for your support, but I do not feel that Neil Farbstein was attacking me. It is true that sometimes people ask for degrees or qualifications as a first step to starting a dispute, but until a dispute actually begins, I will assume that the question was innocent. Besides, I do agree with you that credentials are nearly meaningless on an internet forum like this, where no one can actually check them anyway. I prefer to be judged on the quality of my responses. If I hold the Lucasian Chair of Mathematics at Cambridge and post something wrong, it's still wrong; and if I'm a nobody from the middle of nowhere and I post something right, it's still right.
@Neil Farbstein,
I have bachelor's degrees in physics and mathematics, a master's degree in mathematics, and qualified as a Ph.D candidate in mathematics. I walked out on my Ph.D. thesis because I found that I simply had no interest in working with the faculty in that particular mathematics department on any of their research projects. I returned to my undergraduate university and took a non-research teaching position there, because I have always enjoyed teaching.
My job is rather unusual, in that it is a full-time professional tutoring position, so my duties are basically to explain things to students who are stuck on their homework and help them prepare for examinations. When I started, I was supposed to do physics, but there was no one to help with engineering courses, so I started to take on those courses too, because the early ones are just applied physics. Now, (my 20th year in this job), I've expanded to cover most undergraduate engineering courses. All of this is self-taught, from reading students' books while they wait for me to figure out their problems. Fortunately, I am a fast learner, and so I can open a book on a subject I have never studied before, and usually learn enough in 15 minutes or so to see how to do the homework problem, then explain the method to the student. This works best if the subject is very mathematical or central to physics, of course, because those are my strongest areas.
At this point, I have done essentially all the homework for civil and chemical engineering through the bachelor's degree level, mechanical and electrical engineering at the first year graduate level, and astronomy, atmospheric science, geology, architecture, at various undergraduate levels. I've also tutored students in linguistics, machine level computer programming, and philosophy, and worked with students to critique their poetry. (These last few are just extra things that students bring to me occasionally, because they know I have a "serious hobbyist" level of knowledge about them.) I also teach prep courses for students planning to take the Graduate Record Exam, the Medical College Admission Test, the Law School Admission Test, the Dental Aptitude Test, and the Fundamentals of Engineering part of the Professional Engineering Licence Exam. It has been a very fun job for me, but as you can probably see, it doesn't leave me enough time to post here as much as I would like to!
So my knowledge base is rather broad, but not very deep. I know many disciplines at the undergraduate level, but relatively little at the graduate level outside of mathematics and mathematical physics. Most things I can figure out based on math and common sense, but if you were to ask me about something very specific that requires a detailed technical knowledge of a particular area, I would probably not be able to give you a useful answer. These are the limits of my knowledge at this time, although I'm always working to expand those limits.
As for laser fusion and ultra-intense laser pulse physics, I have no specific knowledge in those areas. If I'm given some references to work with, I can usually come up with some understanding, but I don't have anything "ready to go" in those areas.
I hope that was what you wanted to know.
--Stuart Anderson
math/physics continuum
28th February 2008 - 01:32 AM
@mr_homm
If you don't mind me asking, I was wondering, what is your favorite poem?, and your favorite philosopher?
I was just curious, I won't distract again from the thread.
I, as everyone on this forum, appreciate your contributions.
Thanks.
mr_homm
29th February 2008 - 09:19 PM
Hi math/physics continuum,
Sorry, I didn't see your post right away.
My taste in poetry is mainly for the older "classical" stuff. My favorite is probably Coleridge's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner," although I like a lot of his other work too. Partly, this is because my father liked it and could recite the whole thing from memory. When I was a very small child, he would recite these kinds of poems as my bedtime story, so I grew up liking older poetry. Nowadays, I like a lot of other poems, too, of course. but since I only read English, I am probably unaware of many great poems in other languages.
I'm not sure I even have a favorite philosopher. I always loved Plato, because he treats the abstract world of ideas as real, which is how it feels to me when I am doing mathematics. For social philosophy, I really like Eric Hoffer, especially his book "The True Believer" which is a psychological study of the kind of person who joins cults.
Thanks for asking!
--Stuart Anderson
Confused2
29th February 2008 - 10:22 PM
Please please please can we have your rant about the double slit experiment ,,
Good Elf
11th March 2008 - 11:43 AM
Hi
mr_homm, Confused2, math/physics continuum,kolahal_b, Neil Farbstein et al,
Does anyone know where Stuart has gone? I must admit this particular topic is an excellent one but could be augmented by Stuart (I have many dumb questions to ask). It appears that he may be busy at the moment?
Is anyone else able to comment on this problem. I find the normalization process difficult to reconcile. We know it works but the question is "why" it works.
QUOTE (mr_homm (Stuart)+)
The proof that the momentum operator is hermitian, which uses integration by parts, DOES FAIL when the wave functions do not vanish at infinity. However, that by itself does not mean that the conclusion is false, only that this proof did not work.
It is not correct to say that the momentum operator is hermitian only for normalized functions, because that assumption is too strong. The proof using integration by parts works as long as the term evaluating the product of the functions vanishes. This is certainly true for normalized functions, since if this limit did not vanish, they could not have a finite square integral. Of course, if you take a normalized function and multiply it by an arbitrary constant, it will no longer be normalized, but it will still work in the proof. So your professor is certainly wrong on that point, although that is not the major question here.
Everyone knows I am not good at the operator manipulations. The thought occurs (a possibly "dumb" thought) that instead of having this function everywhere summed and normalized to "1", it could be arranged that this might be normalized to "0". This would mean that the function has "spatial phase". Multiplying through by a constant would not change anything substantial at all... as proposed by kolahal_b's Professor. Would this "mean" that the system has no change in momentum but that the system has spatial momenta everywhere. Any takers?? Stuart?
Cheers
Euler
11th March 2008 - 03:20 PM
It quite literally follows using integration by parts and the definition of the inner product. With units in which h=1 and using the complex L^2 inner product ( , ):
(u,v) = \int_{R} u* v dx
Then:
(u, pv) = \int_{R} u* (-idv/dx) dx = \int_{R} (iu)*(dv/dx) dx = (iu)*v|_{dR} + \int_{R} (-idu/dx)*v dx = (pu,v)
Assuming the boundary term goes away - i.e the fields decay at infinity. Here {dR} is the "boundary" of the real line at (+/-) infinity.
Zarabtul
12th March 2008 - 07:06 PM
is that kinda like Decible ratio so the oscillation of it at it's frequency range?
That would explain it a little better on the physics scale. Not that you need that for electronics or anything, bomb making, laser making, broadcasting, you know all that good stuff.
AlphaNumeric
12th March 2008 - 07:16 PM
QUOTE (Zarabtul+Mar 12 2008, 08:06 PM)
is that kinda like Decible ratio so the oscillation of it at it's frequency range?
No. It's nothing like that.
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