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RealityCheck
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Hello...Dallas? Trout? Is that you?

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NEONOM
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Sep 17 2008, 10:20 PM)
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Hello...Dallas? Trout? Is that you?

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No it isnt. Why are you trying to instigate lies and deceptions against people you have previous grudges with? That's rather despicable, dont you think? Especially for a moderator.

You could get the last word in with Trout by engaging in talk of a mathematical/physics nature, but your here arguing like a retard instead because your just not capable. Trout wins.
RealityCheck
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Ahhh. So that's who. I know you now.

Thanks. That's what I thought. And this Trout does not do, 'words'; only 'numbers'.....and insults, and misunderstandings and.....well, you get the idea. eh? smile.gif
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Remember: "What goes around, comes around!".

And since when is any moderator supposed to let the likes of you run rampant like you have. Look to your own psyche and motives.
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NEONOM
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Sep 17 2008, 10:53 PM)
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Ahhh. So that's who. I know you now.

Thanks. That's what I thought. And this Trout does not do, 'words'; only 'numbers'.....and insults, and misunderstandings and.....well, you get the idea. eh? smile.gif
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Remember: "What goes around, comes around!".

And since when is any moderator supposed to let the likes of you run rampant like you have. Look to your own psyche and motives.
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No I dont get whatever it is your dribbling about now. All I get is that you continue to post dribblings instead of any science. If you dont know any stop barging in and claiming you do. Its not a problem, you just need to learn instead of pretend thats all.
RealityCheck
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You are telling me how to behave and where to go?

Hmmmmmmmmm.

Get lost....I wouldn't be here if you weren't doing what you are doing.

Sad.

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NEONOM
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Sep 17 2008, 11:06 PM)
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You are telling me how to behave and where to go?

Hmmmmmmmmm.

Get lost....I wouldn't be here if you weren't doing what you are doing.

Sad.

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Why are you just resorting to nastiness again?
RealityCheck
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The nastiness is within you.

You spew it out onto innocents every day.

You are nothing to me except a few nasty pixels.

Who cares what you want?

Get lost and that will be that.

Remember: "What goes around, comes around!".

It's not as if you haven't been told that truism before, is it?

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NEONOM
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Sep 17 2008, 11:18 PM)
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The nastiness is within you.

You spew it out onto innocents every day.

You are nothing to me except a few nasty pixels.

Who cares what you want?

Get lost and that will be that.

Remember: "What goes around, comes around!".

It's not as if you haven't been told that truism before, is it?

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Well no. The nastiness is also within you. You have proven it to be so. And quite close to the surface it is too.
QUOTE (RealityCheck or the real person behind this show+)
You are nothing to me except a few nasty pixels.

Who cares what you want?
You see? This is you. Now even the poor pixels are nasty!
RealityCheck
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Nasty stuff, that program of yours. Cheap and nasty. Must be from the Microsoft reject bin.....apparently even they drew the line somewhere.

Get lost and that will be that.

Let's see what 'response' it comes up with.


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NEONOM
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Sep 17 2008, 11:43 PM)
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Nasty stuff, that program of yours. Cheap and nasty. Must be from the Microsoft reject bin.....apparently even they drew the line somewhere.

Get lost and that will be that.

Let's see what 'response' it comes up with.


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This is just awful Mr nice guy. How can you pretend and deny like this? And in public too! sad.gif
RealityCheck
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Note the uncomprehending 'automatic' response characteristics.

Weird....it seems that the pathetic 'master' is switching from 'self' to 'other' identities.
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NEONOM
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Sep 17 2008, 11:52 PM)
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Note the uncomprehending 'automatic' response characteristics.

Weird....it seems that the pathetic 'master' is switching from 'self' to 'other' identities.
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For the last couple of hours I have tried to be nice and teach you something about humility, but you just continue with the nastiness. Why is that?
Bloy
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 17 2008, 06:09 PM)
For the last couple of hours I have tried to be nice and teach you something about humility, but you just continue with the nastiness. Why is that?

Hoping ,neonom, that viewers will see only your last post and not be informed of your dastardly past? ....Just one reason for your "false" humility.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 18 2008, 12:09 AM)
For the last couple of hours I have tried to be nice and teach you something about humility, but you just continue with the nastiness. Why is that?


Forget it, mafia minion. You already 'busted' yourself in the "Here's My Comment:" thread.

Save yourself! Run away!....for failure is not tolerated by your 'masters'. smile.gif

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

"What goes around, comes around!"

And you, poor 'it', have been right royally "comed around" on.

Another internet creep bites the dust....and closely chased by its 'masters' for 'retribution for failure'.

Taaataaa......loser.

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NEONOM
QUOTE (Bloy+Sep 18 2008, 12:37 AM)
Hoping ,neonom, that viewers will see only your last post and not be informed of your dastardly past? ....Just one reason for your "false" humility.

Well you can add cynical to YOUR list. I for one dont credit other posters with such little intelligence. What a little opinion of other peoples capacities you have. People of such shortsightedness will obviously be looking at our respective feedback scores firstly but I can see how you might want to deliberately neglect such a fact.
Bloy
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 17 2008, 06:44 PM)
Well you can add cynical to YOUR list. I for one dont credit other posters with such little intelligence. What a little opinion of other peoples capacities you have. People of such shortsightedness will obviously be looking at our respective feedback scores firstly but I can see how you might want to deliberately neglect such a fact.

yup.. it will become evident when viewing the feedback of how multiple entries are from but a close-knit group...and comments left from those have little constructive content. ...in fact the comments from the likes of you don't go beyond demeaning value. hehehe
NEONOM
QUOTE (Bloy+Sep 18 2008, 12:53 AM)
yup.. it will become evident when viewing the feedback of how multiple entries are from but a close-knit group...and comments left from those have little constructive content. ...in fact the comments from the likes of you don't go beyond demeaning value. hehehe

Well youll want to have a word with your buddy RealityCheck about that. He knows the other mods here and can probably stop it anytime he wishes. But hes not quite the nice guy he makes out, so sorry about that.

In the meantime YOU are continuing with the nastiness and that just justifies your negative feedback. MPants was good earlier, he pointed out something of importance to me but you were oblivious of it. Can you now think what it might be?
RealityCheck
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Hehehe. Ever heard the saying: "Give 'em enough rope and they will hang themselves"?

Loser(s).

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iseason
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 18 2008, 01:09 PM)
For the last couple of hours I have tried to be nice and teach you something about humility, but you just continue with the nastiness. Why is that?

Hi Neonom

I always let bygons be bygons . Give rc and Bloy a pos and lets see your stuff.....



Cheers
Iseason
NEONOM
QUOTE (iseason+Sep 18 2008, 07:08 AM)
Hi Neonom

I always let bygons be bygons . Give rc and Bloy a pos and lets see your stuff.....



Cheers
Iseason

No you dont. You hold grudges for a very long time.

I always let moderators be moderators as long as theyre fair and honest. But your not are you? I tried being nice and just got a load of drunken abuse in return. Then RseCrack exposed itself as one of the admin and tried to pretend it didnt happen so now hes just getting more abusive and fake than ever.

I think the onus is on them to start learning how to be nice and not so pretentious first. That could maybe be the topic of your next meeting?
iseason
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 18 2008, 11:22 PM)
No you dont. You hold grudges for a very long time.

I always let moderators be moderators as long as theyre fair and honest. But your not are you? I tried being nice and just got a load of drunken abuse in return. Then RseCrack exposed itself as one of the admin and tried to pretend it didnt happen so now hes just getting more abusive and fake than ever.

I think the onus is on them to start learning how to be nice and not so pretentious first. That could maybe be the topic of your next meeting?

Wasn't about them....

Cheers
Iseason
NEONOM
QUOTE (iseason+Sep 18 2008, 10:43 AM)
Wasn't about them....

Cheers
Iseason

Liar.

QUOTE
Give rc and Bloy a pos and lets see your stuff.....


So it was about them and of course YOU being a concerned member of the admin team who thinks he has a good hiding position.

"Good hiding", apt and very clever isnt it? cool.gif



Anyway enough of this. we're wasting good time when we could be discussing god! ph34r.gif
Bloy
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 18 2008, 04:49 AM)
Anyway enough of this. we're wasting good time when we could be discussing god!  ph34r.gif

What's with this "we" stuff, neonom. You have this idea that everything you say is a derivative of "we". Soon you will learn that "it" (you) are just that ...a singular. Yet, you think you speak for many.
MisterBelfry
No, I have been led to believe the term is reticular evolution or better, cooperation for a set purpose at a set time for a special location---->Jerusalem and what I call the battle for New Jerusalem at the conclusion of a thousand years-not yet started.



>>> If you think to ask "...evolution is probably so altered as to not be a relevant medium any more...?"
It sounds like you miss understand what evolution essentially is at it's simplest level - Change over Time. <<<




QUOTE (Buttershug+)
But the way you use the term "darwinism" would be like a photographer only talking about techniques Daguerre used.



Hi MrB.

Can you explain what you wrote in reply? It all sounds a bit confused. Back tomorrow.

Cheers!

RC.

~~~~~~~

I would tend to disagree. It has some coherence. It, as a theory, as I have often and maybe only said here on forum= 24 is in the eschatology. Devolution is a theory that can be falsified in this century pursuant to my signature involving the same Newton already mentioned in this thread! Devolution has no specific view on viruses beyond the natural selection vs. the artificial selection categorizations.
The artifacts of selection would represent intelligence. I have faith in the law {and lawgiver} of kinds, that the real selection power of man known as GMOs are not in any way dangerous. Even though Devolution, like the current Evolution is fumbling in the dark. That is why, as a historical science, the science has to be in the eschatology!

MrB.
NEONOM
QUOTE (Bloy+Sep 18 2008, 11:41 AM)
What's with this "we" stuff, neonom. You have this idea that everything you say is a derivative of "we". Soon you will learn that "it" (you) are just that ...a singular. Yet, you think you speak for many.

WE do not think the moderator is correct in his singular assumption. smile.gif
Grumpy
Bats


QUOTE

I would tend to disagree. It has some substance



It isn't even a failed hypothesis, much less a theory. It is a mish-mash of pre-conceptual, pseudo-scientific, religiously informed gibberish put forth by you because you obviously cannot face the ramifications of the FACT that all life evolved from simple beginnings. Even if the theories explaining that FACT change with our evolving understanding, the Fact itself does not change.

Grumpy cool.gif
Bloy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Sep 18 2008, 07:03 AM)
because ........ of the FACT that all life evolved from simple beginnings. Even if the theories explaining that FACT change with our evolving understanding, the Fact itself does not change.

Grumpy cool.gif

I beg to differ....

The FACT that neonom exists provides a strong case against the findings that ALL life evolved beyond simple beginnings.
NEONOM
QUOTE (Bloy+Sep 18 2008, 01:13 PM)
I beg to differ....

The FACT that neonom exists provides a strong case against the findings that ALL life evolved beyond simple beginnings.

biggrin.gif

Dont let me eat you up bloy. I cant resist the occasional maggot.
Bloy
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 18 2008, 07:15 AM)
biggrin.gif

Dont let me eat you up bloy. I cant resist the occasional maggot.

..heh! Your mentality inspires a false belief in you that somehow you are even capable of such an act!
NEONOM
QUOTE (Bloy+Sep 18 2008, 01:23 PM)
..heh!  Your mentality inspires a false belief in you that somehow you are even capable of such an act!

Does it really? Looks to me like your swallowing your own nuts cretin. And choking cos youve only learned how to do it sideways with the shells still on wink.gif
Bloy
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 18 2008, 07:25 AM)
Looks to me like your swallowing your own nuts cretin.

Remember? Your sense of perception is distorted as your evolvement has gone awry and has been retarded in its development .
photojack
Bloy and NEONOM, Please take your petty gripes and swats at each other elsewhere. dry.gif If you can't reply to the topic at hand, do your jousting through PM's. ph34r.gif wacko.gif

Grumpy cool.gif got it right when he said:
QUOTE
... you obviously cannot face the ramifications of the FACT that all life evolved from simple beginnings. Even if the theories explaining that FACT change with our evolving understanding, the Fact itself does not change.


The only "problem" with evolution is filling in the small gaps with new fossils and further enlightenment. The "theory" is as rock-solid as anything we are capable of understanding. It happened, is still happening, and the existing fossil record is more than enough proof of its occurrence to satisfy even the most doubting "minds" out there! blink.gif
NEONOM
QUOTE (photojack+Sep 18 2008, 03:41 PM)

Grumpy cool.gif got it right when he said:

The only "problem" with evolution is filling in the small gaps with new fossils and further enlightenment.  The "theory" is as rock-solid as anything we are capable of understanding.  It happened, is still happening, and the existing fossil record is more than enough proof of its occurrence to satisfy even the most doubting "minds" out there!  blink.gif

Couldnt agree more. smile.gif
photojack
NEONOM, You managed to get the quote wrong. unsure.gif I said that! I'm glad that you agree.
NEONOM
QUOTE (photojack+Sep 18 2008, 04:28 PM)
NEONOM, You managed to get the quote wrong. unsure.gif I said that! I'm glad that you agree.

I do agree, and I'm glad that your glad that I agree. And I'm glad that you said it and that we are both so glad about it. You are great and lovely and well just so...super! smile.gif
Argyll
QUOTE (NEONOM+Sep 18 2008, 04:38 PM)
I do agree, and I'm glad that your glad that I agree. And I'm glad that you said it and that we are both so glad about it. You are great and lovely and well just so...super! smile.gif

agreed.
NEONOM
QUOTE (Argyll+Sep 18 2008, 04:40 PM)
agreed.

Super! smile.gif
RealityCheck
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Hey photojack.

The neomoron seems to be taking the p!ss out of you here....

QUOTE (NEONOM to photojack+Sep 18 2008, 04:38 PM)
I do agree, and I'm glad that your glad that I agree. And I'm glad that you said it and that we are both so glad about it. You are great and lovely and well just so...super!    smile.gif



Can it be that the cret!n can't tell who's who in these threads; and so just takes a blind stab at responding according to some 'trigger word' noted in your comment to 'it'?

What more evidence do we need for this 'thing' being a chatbot program with the accasional manual intervention from its 'master'?

Good luck getting any sense out of either! smile.gif

PS: This 'thing' and its 'master' have all the hallmarks of a semi-automatic THREAD DISRUPTER program being trialled in web forums. BEWARE going to any 'outside links' posted by this 'thing' and its 'master'. Don't say you weren't warned! smile.gif

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MisterBelfry
Showtopic= 3414&view=findpost&p=373873


QUOTE
1. Darwinian Evolution: Accumulation of small mutations by natural selection. The pace of evolution may vary from "slow" (little change over millions of years) to "fast" (substantial change over millions of years), as long as no large step occurs in a single generation.


"Darwinian evolution includes all changes in a species, even if it occurs overnight. Punctuated Equilibrium is Darwinian evolution that occurs over several generations, followed(or preceded) by long periods of little change. Saltations of any type are still evolution(except magical intervention)" --Grumpy.




Showtopic= 3414&view=findpost&p=375168


"The only "problem" with evolution is filling in the small gaps with new fossils and further enlightenment. The "theory" is as rock-solid as anything we are capable of understanding. It happened, is still happening, and the existing fossil record is more than enough proof of its occurrence to satisfy even the most doubting "minds" out there!" --Photojack.



Interesting. Evolution is a done deal. Let's all go home now!

MrB.
DUPLICATE POST
NEONOM
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Sep 19 2008, 08:10 AM)



Interesting. Evolution is a done deal. Let's all go home now!

No. Evolution is never a done deal. Its an ongoing process.
eyeque
Evolotion is a silly word atracting creationist.

Im familiar with the anti evolutionary creationists. The look at ape skuls and say a human couldnt have evolved from that. I tell themm to look at a mungrel dog with ever dog breed expressin.ng in its geen pool then i say evelolution is cutting the balls of the orarange red freakly mungrels and the next generation is wiser and better.
MisterBelfry
QUOTE
No. Evolution is never a done deal. Its an ongoing process.
Drivel. Not meaningless drivel. But not worth much either.


MrB.
To help get my point across, I will quote a post-Newtonian paper:
"The constraints on the PPN parameters which we will derive in this paper are theoretical constraints—they do not tell us which theory is the correct theory of gravity. Only experiment can do that." To seperate foundations—the Bible as Newton enjoyed or Darwinism—I use the word Devolution for Evolution.
photojack
QUOTE
Evolotion is a silly word atracting creationist.

Im familiar with the anti evolutionary creationists. The look at ape skuls and say a human couldnt have evolved from that. I tell themm to look at a mungrel dog with ever dog breed expressin.ng in its geen pool then i say evelolution is cutting the balls of the orarange red freakly mungrels and the next generation is wiser and better.  blink.gif 
eyeque quote.

"Evelolution"? huh.gif "Geen pool"? "Orarange red freakly mungrels"? unsure.gif Come on dude, how far did you get in school? What IS your IQ? Were you at the top of your class? ((laugh.gif))
It's ONLY people like you who have problems with evolution! ohmy.gif
The rest of us understand it and know it is true.
Every scrap of science backs it thoroughly.
MisterBelfry
Rabbits in the Cambrian won't disuade the religious Photojack.
buttershug
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Sep 23 2008, 12:20 PM)
Rabbits in the Cambrian won't disuade the religious Photojack.

There being nothing even close to that doesn't disuade you.

You didn't show the "if" in your post but it's still there.

i.e. IF there was a rabbit in the Cambrian that still wouldn't disuade PJ.
El_Machinae
Rabbit fossils in the Cambrian layer would change all of science.
MisterBelfry

>>> Rabbit fossils in the Cambrian layer would change all of science. <<<
Nonsense.
Let me repeat Will's '71 paper(partIII):
"The constraints on the PPN parameters which we will derive in this paper are theoretical constraints—they do not tell us which theory is the correct theory of gravity. Only experiment can do that."

Looking back at the stars is suppose to be looking back in time—just so the fossil record. But this is hardly a proactive experiment!

These deliberate experiments are not easy and not easily done well.
Also, experiments should be duplicated regardless of the expense. And even then, I would add "more correct theory of..." People like to get ahead of themselves. The experiments, due to their difficultly, are also few and far between. I dismiss the exercise as repeatable science. "Forces are stupid ghosts." The exercises of natural selection and mass attraction have revealed nothing but our use of mathematics. Our want for violence is the true deviant force of nature that our philosophy can only hope to tame and but a short while.

Repeatable experimental science is repeatable science and not the game changer. Proverbs like the rabbits in the Cambrian are for a character tune-up and the time for a gut check.

MrB.
buttershug
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Sep 29 2008, 12:54 PM)
Repeatable experimental science is repeatable science and not the game changer. Proverbs like the rabbits in the Cambrian are for a character tune-up and the time for a gut check.

MrB.

There are repeatable experiments going on. And so far no contradiction with the fossil record.

And your rabbits in the Cambrian actually goes against you because you would not use it if you had something better. And almost anything concrete would be better than using such a big "IF" as rabbits in the Cambrian is.

Why do you use "rabbits in the Cambrian"? Why not use something real instead of a hypothetical?
MisterBelfry
QUOTE (MisterBelfry @ Sep 23 2008, 12:20 PM)
Rabbits in the Cambrian won't disuade the religious Photojack.

>>> Why do you use "rabbits in the Cambrian"? <<<

Webster{dictionary} points the way---->
Proverb ---->
Epigram, "often satirically" ..."with an ingenious turn of thought"

Try Wikipedia.

Mysource(iirc):

ISCID.

MrB.




Brainstorms: Ontogenetic Depth and the Origin of Animals

Evolutionists would likewise accommodate "rabbits in the Cambrian" through ...
For example, where the existence of rabbits in the Cambrian would be taken as
...
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-...000296-p-7.html - 74k - Cached - Similar pages


Brainstorms: Ontogenetic Depth and the Origin of Animals

So, it boils down to Walter claiming that cladistics creates a "way out" for
rabbits in the cambrian. But would it really, not just in some ...
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-...000296-p-8.html - 95k - Cached - Similar pages


Brainstorms: Ontogenetic Depth and the Origin of Animals

I said trilobites in the Cambrian are every bit as awkward for evolutionists to
explain as rabbits in the Cambrian. The issue is both complexity and lineage ...
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-...000296-p-9.html - 86k - Cached - Similar pages


Brainstorms: Ontogenetic Depth and the Origin of Animals
Rabbits in the cambrian would be quite a shock. I agree with Walter that
incompleteness in data is not necessarily thought of as evolutionary or ...
http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-...000296-p-6.html - 85k


MisterBelfry

>>> Try Wikipedia. <<<

The Top Two of Forty(with hopefully the best relevance):

Falsifiability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Richard Dawkins said that "If there were a single hippo or rabbit in the ... the
even more drastic example of the remains of a car in cambrian sediments), ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability - 93k - Cached


User talk:Robert Stevens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia... found elephants among the dinosaurs, rabbits in the precambrian etc. And the
Cambrian Explosion doesn't disprove evolution either (a lot of creationists ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Robert_Stevens - 84k - Cached




buttershug
Richard Dawkins uses it because it supports his views.
The arguement says nothing about your views.

My main point was that you use that arguement because you don't have any better one to support your views.
MisterBelfry
QUOTE
There are repeatable experiments going on. And so far no contradiction with the fossil record.

How does one measure 'complex'?
MrB.
HGT=horizontal gene transfer
-----------------------------------------------------
Posted by Walter ReMine (Member # 906) on 12. September 2003, 12:45:

Grape Ape writes:


quote:
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"Good grief, what do you want us to do, wait millions of years to see if these things happen? Go back in time and set up a video recorder?"
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No. But natural selection theory indicates our experimental demonstrations cannot be extrapolated. The contour and warping of the fitness terrain is complex, so experimental demonstrations over a small portion of the fitness terrain are unlikely to apply over other larger portions of the fitness terrain. Such extrapolations have no scientific validity, according to natural selection theory itself.

Fortunately this may be remedied by finding suitable fossils that fill-in the morphological gaps between species, thereby reducing the required magnitude of our experimental demonstrations. However, after nearly 150 years since Darwin's Origin, there still exists a wide-spread, systematic lack of correspondence between our experimental demonstrations of evolution and the morphological gaps in the record. Our experimental demonstrations do not span the numerous, systematically-placed, large morphological gaps. That causes the failure of this demonstration-based evidence for evolution.

There is, however, the alternate approach of using pattern-based evidence, and this includes virtually all the major evidence for macro-evolution. That is, it is based on pattern, rather than on sufficient experimental demonstrations of macro-evolution. This approach is inherently weaker scientifically, but in principle it can be sufficient, if the patterns are consistent and unique to evolution (which I claim they are not).

==================================


quote:
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"Once again, what you're doing is claiming that there's no pattern (or that a pattern is not predicted) simply because anomalies exist, and we have an explanation for them."
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No, he mis-stated my argument. The "existence of anomalies" has nothing to with it, except perhaps that they serve to probe evolutionary theory to help display its structure, or lack of it. My argument is that macro-evolutionary theory -- as practiced by modern evolutionists -- is a vast structureless smorgasbord, it makes no serious predictions.


quote:
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"It is possible both to predict an observed pattern and also explain the rare deviations from that pattern. There is simply no reason why the explanation for the anomaly negates the expectation of the pattern."
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He's focusing on the 'anomaly' and missing the forest. Let me put it this way. Suppose there were no hierarchical patterns in life -- just lots of transposition patterns. By the approach used by modern evolutionists, they would immediately abandon descent-with-modification and immediately embrace transposition (e.g. HGT) -- all based on pattern and their ability to "explain" it. Also, this would give evolutionists a way out from their greatest problems with life's patterns, namely:


A. The systematic absence of gradualism over large-scales (as measured by our experimental demonstrations).

B. The systematic absence of clear-cut lineages and ancestors.

C. The abundance of so-called "convergence."


Indeed, evolutionists themselves have stated the above three items as reasons to seek HGT explanations. This is a no-risk, no-lose strategy for evolutionists. If life's hierarchy pattern holds, then evolution wins (descent with modification). But if the hierarchy pattern doesn't hold, then evolution wins (HGT). Evolution wins either way.

(Note: But of the two, the observed pattern of life is far harder for evolutionists to scientifically/testably explain -- and that, I suggest, is a key reason for it's existence.)

==================================


quote:
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"I'm afraid you've done nothing to explain why we shouldn't expect trilobites in the Cambrian."
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That isn't what I said. I said trilobites in the Cambrian are every bit as awkward for evolutionists to explain as rabbits in the Cambrian. The issue is both complexity and lineage. Trilobites are every bit as complex as rabbits. And trilobites (like rabbits) have no clear-cut lineage leading to them. They just show up in the Cambrian.


quote:
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"[Trilobites]They're primitive arthropods, and we find them exactly where we should find them according to the phylogenetic tree."
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There is no clear-cut lineage leading to trilobites, so he cannot be speaking of a genuine "phylogenetic tree" as I would use that term. He must mean a hierarchical tree -- a cladogram or phenogram -- which do not indicate any real ancestors, nor the fossil sequence of any real organisms. For example, if trilobites didn't show up until the Pleistocene, that would be fully compatible with the cladogram or phenogram -- his so-called "phylogenetic tree." In other words, his above claim is mistaken.


quote:
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"Rabbits, on the other hand, contain many derived characters that we shouldn't expect to see until well after the appearance of primitive mammals."
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I am aware of the standard evolutionary story, (but gee he tells it so well!). His reference to "derived characters" means he is referring to cladograms. But there is nothing within a cladogram that predicts the sequence of any real organisms. Rather, cladograms speak of various hypothetical organisms showing up first, such as the 'first mammals' -- a hypothetical creature having mammal characters. The moment you speak of those 'first mammals' as being real, and leaving real fossils, you are no longer speaking of a cladogram. Rather, you have shifted, mostly likely to a paraphyletic group (which are emphatically dis-recognized within cladistics). This shifting to-and-fro between systematic methods is a common source of illusion -- through confusion.

So let me make it simple for you. If you never identify a clear-cut ancestor or descendant for organism X (which evolutionists generally do not), then organism X can comfortably appear any place in the fossil sequence -- and the only serious problem remaining for evolutionists is whether the organism is 'too complex' to have appeared so suddenly from the available forbearers. ...

buttershug
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+Sep 30 2008, 06:56 PM)
So let me make it simple for you. If you never identify a clear-cut ancestor or descendant for organism X (which evolutionists generally do not), then organism X can comfortably appear any place in the fossil sequence -- and the only serious problem remaining for evolutionists is whether the organism is 'too complex' to have appeared so suddenly from the available forbearers. ...

SO if I have the number 8 but not the number 7 or the number 9. I can put 8 anywhere on the number line?
MisterBelfry
QUOTE
SO if I have the number 8 but not the number 7 or the number 9. I can put 8 anywhere on the number line?
Yes, but i think would you have 8i.

R.C.-------> Showtopic= 16195,
"I merely point to the fact that NO PHYSICAL/ABSTRACT 'LINE CONSTRUCT' IS PROPERLY DEFINED or CORRECTLY ANALYSABLE UNLESS we RECOGNIZE AND ALLOW for the fact that no such line is EVER STATIC/FINITE in 'location/length' because all things have absolute/relative MOTION with respect to (spacetime? or) whatever the reality 'context' IS.

As such, the implication is that no analysis of ANY 'number line' PROPERTIES can be said to be COMPLETE without also considering the 'EXCURSION' across spacetime of the 'points' supposedly 'making up' that 'line' in any analysis/theory based on same."

Found Together Near The Top Fifty of about 21,500--while trying to remember what Euler called the "imaginary number". It will eventually come to me, I hope!

NUMB3RS Episode 402: Velocity--Wolfram Research Math Notes
Higher-order derivatives: Jerk. An interesting and not much known concept that
... The archetypical system are Euler's equations for a rigid body with no ...
http://numb3rs.wolfram.com/402/ - 58k - Cached -


Matt Visser: Recent Seminars
It is increasingly plausible that Einstein's general relativity (like Euler's
hydrodynamics), ... Jerk, snap, and the cosmological equation of state. ...
http://homepages.mcs.vuw.ac.nz/~visser/seminars.shtml - 52k - Cached


Thomas S. Ray - Aesthetically Evolved Virtual Pets - Leonardo 34:4
The child box includes an actuator that controls the Euler angles (yaw, ....
seven green or brown blocks that occasionally flex and then make a sudden jerk.
...
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/leonardo/v034/34.4ray.html


Derivative
Euler's notation is useful for stating and solving linear differential ... In physics [i], jerk , also called surge or lurch, is the rate of change of ...
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Derivative - 70k - Cached
buttershug
learn analogies.
MisterBelfry
Exactly.
QUOTE (MisterBelfry+ Sept. 29)
I dismiss the exercise as repeatable science. "Forces are stupid ghosts." The exercises of natural selection and mass attraction have revealed nothing but our use of mathematics.


ALSO See---->

Showtopic= 2843 which popped back up recently!

MrB.
Capracus
QUOTE (BigFairy+Oct 2 2008, 12:06 PM)
JOURNAL ENTRY 41

U FAIL
MisterBelfry
Gog and Magog ----------->Showtopic= 3684.
NEONOM
QUOTE (BigFairy+Oct 2 2008, 12:06 PM)
JOURNAL ENTRY 41
The paper is heavily soiled, but you can make out, ...Knives
untrustworthy, cultists unreliable, wizard insane and he seems very
dangerous. Expect little reliability from the New Alliance,
especially over the bonded subject. Will need to set up our own
observation team. Per...


JOURNAL 42
The letter reads, Friend of the Harpers, we are working to provide you
with allies. We have arranged for a rather unusual harp player to
meet you in Zhentil Keep. In the village of Hap, the mage of Akabar
Bel Akash works to counter Dracandros. Finally, two excellent
warriors have been sent to the Pit to aid you. The letter is
unsigned.

JOURNAL ENTRY 43
An important man from Phlan escaped proper justice. A traitorous
Council member, named Cadorna, was raised from the dead and has flown
to Dagger Falls.

JOURNAL ENTRY 44
I am the current leader of the Swanmays, since Kith and Belinda
disappeared on the Great Glacier. We need someone to infiltrate the
Red Wizard's Tower, and we heard the Dracandros was looking for a
party bearing those symbols on your arms.

Dracandros has gathered all the Black Dragons in the area to his
tower. We need to get a special piece of one of them. If you accept
our mark you will be eligible for a share of our reward. I have
influence with several families that are guarding these caves, so I
can get you to the tower. Once there, we would be most happy if you
could get us a part of a dragon's heart, or at least get them to leave
the tower.

JOURNAL ENTRY 45
The centaurs recently had a brush with spiders and Thri-kreen. These
monsters were heading north, apparently on a treasure hunting
expedition. They were probably headed for Myth Drannor. The
Thri-kreen can avoid arrows and their phase spiders are unhittable
after they strike.

JOURNAL ENTRY 46
Most Respected Mogion of Moander,
The Red Wizard Dracandros has provided a magical sending to me,
altering me that you are planning to exterminate the subjects of our
little test. While I realize that you are among the survivors of not
only a banished god but an earlier alliance, I must protest strongly
your intention to eradicate our subjects before they are fully tested.

If you carry out this mad plot and slay our pigeons, then Dracandros,
myself and Lord T will all be forced to hunt you down and slay both
you and anything you choose to bring onto this plane. Do not doubt
that we can do so. Remember that I represent a more active power that
is still at work in this part of the Realms, and will take poorly to
your hostile actions. Once the subjects have been fully tested, then
we may slay them.

One more thing: I performed the requested research for you, and you
are wrong. It is only gauntlets, not the appearance of Moander
himself, which can devour the Pool of Radiance. This further weakens
your argument to bring "old moldy" back onto this plane.

Yours in darkness,
Lord Fzoul Chembryl of Bane,
Zhentil Keep

JOURNAL ENTRY 47
Near the city of Dagger Falls is the waterfall it was named after.
Behind it are deep caverns, abandoned until recently. New activity
suggests that a man raised from the dead has taken them over. Dark
things are beginning to awake in response.

JOURNAL ENTRY 48
You have done well, my pets. The three artifacts that can do me harm
are now in my possession. More importantly, the bonds you wear can
act as the Pool of Radiance does. With them I can transfer into any
of your bodies and use it for as long as I need to. Then, should the
body be killed, I can transfer through the bond and back to the
Pool -- or to another of your bodies. I must thank you for the great
freedom you have afforded me. Now come along and we will dispose of
those dangerous objects.

JOURNAL ENTRY 49
A Dark Journey: The four dark elves take you down a long sloping
corridor. After many hours, you have descended many miles and begin
to pass massive black mushroom forests and a few bizarrely shaped
buildings.

Finally, you reach a glowing cavern, with a large temple in the
center. The dark elves march you up into the heart of the temple. In
an onyx walled room is a perfect, silvery web. In the center of the
web is a giant black spider. The spider speaks in a raspy, hollow
voice.

Greetings. I represent the god of the dark elves. You are my
prisoners. Your choice is simple, you may be my slaves, or be my
lunch.

As you consider retreat, huge stone blocks seal the entrance. A
tittering laugh echoes through the room.

JOURNAL ENTRY 50
Olive says, Well now, aren't we a fine bunch of adventurers. My name
is Olive Ruskettle and I know a bit about those tattoos on your arms.
A pal of mine had some similar marks a while back. I wonder where she
is...

Listen, you've got to get hold of the Amulet of Lathander. There is a
man who could help you but he's been captured and is being held
prisoner inside the temple. His name is Dimswart the Sage and he
helped that friend of mine I told you about. I have a secret way into
the temple. What do you say?

JOURNAL ENTRY 51
The human you are looking for named Dimswart. He's a very good sage,
and a music lover, which is why we get along -- did you know that I
was a Bard? Yes sir, I've got my harp right here and I could sing for
you-well, maybe now is not the time. Anyway, Fzoul Chembryl has cap-


JOURNAL ENTRY 52

JOURNAL ENTRY 53
Suddenly the roof vaporizes and King Azoun, his wizard Vangerdahast
and a troop of royal guards descend into the room. One of the guards
points at your party and says, Those are the ones who tried to kill
you, your highness. The princess leaps up and stands between you and
her father. They were under the Fire Knives control, they couldn't
help themselves. Besides that, they saved me.

The king looks at you and at the princess, Well, the fact remains that
you attempted to kill me. Also it looks as though you wear more
controlling bonds. I will not slay you, but you are banished from all
Cormyr lands.

The royal guards come up and begin escorting you out. Suddenly the
far door opens and Gharri of Gond steps unsteadily into the room. As
you leave the room, you see the princess run over to him and they
embrace. Heading out of the hideout you hear the king saying,
Nacacia, time for you to accept the duties of a princess. The voices
fade.

You are taken to the outskirts of town and the guards leave. As you
decide on your next move, a horse pounds out of the gate, bearing
Gharri and Nacacia. She waves as they race north.

JOURNAL ENTRY 54
The princess has been talking with the slightly recovered leader.
With a dagger to his throat he croaks, All right, I'll release them.
He mouths a meaningless syllable and your bonds fade.

JOURNAL ENTRY 55
Your aid of one of our fellows in Tilverton was much appreciated. In
return we must warn you that Fire Knives are watching the forest roads
for you. Also the Flamed One, in the ruins of Myth Drannor seems to
be taking an interest in you. Finally, something malignant seems to
be watching the Standing Stones. Beware and Good Luck.

JOURNAL ENTRY 56
The man says, Ask me not my name, for names are but labels men apply
to that which they do not understand. I know of your bonds, and of
your struggle to free yourselves, for I helped create the first bonds
what seems now so long ago.

Your last bond, that of Tyranthraxus the Flamed One, is the most
dangerous. Whither you know it or not, you are closer to eternal
slavery now than ever, for Tyranthraxus need no longer share his power
over you with others, he can turn his full fury to making sure that
you do not ever escape.

Your only hope is to catch the flamed one by surprise and deal with
him before he can evoke the power of your bonds.

JOURNAL ENTRY 57
It is good to speak with those with confidence enough to deal. My
clan has taken this spot as a place to rest for a few mortal
lifetimes. But, the Flamed One, Tyranthraxus, has stolen our
followers and threatened my clan. His power is such that we cannot
attack his temple directly, though we hate him with great passion.

Now to our deal. You wear the Flamed Ones mark, but I have been told
you are his enemy. When you attack his temple we will bend our power
to reclaim our followers. That may weaken him enough for you to be
victorious.

JOURNAL ENTRY 58
The letter is written in a crabbed script, I have deemed the Displacer
Beasts to be too weak for my needs. You are instructed to continue
their training in the mountains near Tilverton. It would take too
many of them to lay waste to the Dalelands, but I don't want them
destroyed when the dragons begin their flight. You will be contacted
periodically with new instructions. The letter is signed with a
symbol that matches the crescent moon bond on your arm.

JOURNAL ENTRY 59

TAVERN TALES
These entries include items which adventurers might overhear while
traveling and meeting other people. During the game these entries are
referred to by number. When the game refers to a Tavern Tale read the
specific entry and place a checkmark in the box to keep track of which
entries have come up in the game. Do not read ahead to other Tavern
Tales; some tales are false, and others are important clues that are
based on when and where you read them.

Tavern Tale 1
Both the Princess and King are in town in disguise.

Tavern Tale 2
A flame wreathed giant walks the Elven Court. He only fears three
ancient artifacts. One may lie below a waterfall to the north.

Tavern Tale 3
Many soldiers think the Pit is spooky. Some have gone AWOL rather
than be put on guard duty there.

Tavern Tale 4
The city's sewer is among the more dangerous in the Dalelands.

Tavern Tale 5
Groups of red robed assassins have been patrolling the forest trails.

Tavern Tale 6
A merchant adventurer named Akabar headed south to investigate Hap. A
female adventuring group also headed in that direction.

Tavern Tale 7
With Teshwave in Zhentrim hands the river has become dangerous to
travel.

Tavern Tale 8
The Princess always has some piece of purple clothing on, that's how
to spot her.

Tavern Tale 9
Someone has passed through recently with something he was sure would
destroy the plants. He was waving a wand about.

Tavern Tale 10
There's a trap door in the altar which soldiers use to deposit all
magic items from their raids.

Tavern Tale 11
A mercenary group from the south was slain by river pirates recently.

Tavern Tale 12
With all the war going on, the rivers are getting dangerous to travel.
Dragons and beholders have been seen along the Tesh.

Tavern Tale 13
I hear there are Zhentil Keep terror teams in the area.

Tavern Tale 14
Elminster of Shadowdale passed through in disguise, heading for
Teshwave. He may be checking on the river dragons.

Tavern Tale 15
Shamblers will'smother you if they can grab you. Have to hack them to
pieces quickly.

Tavern Tale 16
Bane likes beholders. Anyone else who gets close to them will die.
Best to keep your distance. If you see more than three, then they're
probably scouts for the Mulmaster Beholder Corps-flee for your lives!

Tavern Tale 17
Plants have a tendency to walk around here. Nastiest are the
Shambling Mounds.

Tavern Tale 18
Buccaneers are raiding the Moonsea again. Ship travel is getting
dicey.

Tavern Tale 19
The city was devastated by troops from Zhentil Keep and now all the
roads are heavily patrolled.

Tavern Tale 20
Watch out for falling buildings and sink holes in the rest of the
city.

Tavern Tale 21
Creatures have been raiding the Dale from the north and west.

Tavern Tale 22
The Zhentrim mages respect only those who are as smart as they are.

Tavern Tale 23
Zhentil Keep covets the Daggerdale because its the best land in the
Realms.

Tavern Tale 24
Dragons have been seen flying overhead. They also infest waterfalls
along the river Tesh.

Tavern Tale 25
The city clerk's been depressed ever since Tyranthraxus was defeated.
She hasn't had any commissions to hand out.

Tavern Tale
Dragons have been heading south for weeks. Hopefully far to the
south.

Tavern Tale 27
Moander once crawled to the south of here, made a swath called
Moander's Road.

Tavern Tale 28
Two ships have been lost travelling to Shadowdale. the river's gotten
very dangerous.

Tavern Tale 29
A thief in a purple vest has been raiding the rich houses. She's
escaped with the help of a hammer-wielding cleric.

Tavern Tale 30
The Knights of Myth Drannor fear some creatures that can lure people
willingly to their deaths.

Tavern Tale 31
Halflings are all thieves.

Tavern Tale 32
Dark Elves have been passing through town. Their equipment always
radiates magic.

Tavern Tale 33
Zhentil Keep is hiring mercenaries -- or rather several factions are
each hiring their own forces. They've also had trouble from an
ex-councilman from Phlan.

Tavern Tale 34
Crazy people, with green robes, have been wandering the countryside,
especially to the south.

Tavern Tale 35
Zhentrim forces are gathering in Teshwave, perhaps they will march on
Shadowdale or Dagger Falls.

Tavern Tale 36
A friendly village of centaurs is hidden in the forests to the south.

Tavern Tale 37
King Azoun of Cormyr is hunting for his wayward daughter in Tilverton

Tavern Tale 38
I heard that Dimswart the mage has joined the Zhentrim. Who'd of
imagined it.

Tavern Tale 39
Fzoul is sending specially trained terror teams to harass Yulash. I
hear that he's looking for mercinaries for special training.

Tavern Tale 40
Its been lucky that Zhentil Keep is looking westward for expansion.
At least they're a check against Hillsfar.

Tavern Tale 41
Something huge and skeletal has found a lair to the south.

Tavern Tale 42
If you don't want to get into trouble with the Zhentil Keep soldiers,
you have to act real humble.

Tavern Tale 43
Some walls and floors are dangerously shaky after Moander's rise from
The Pit.

Tavern Tale 44
Red wizards like creatures of fire. Cold attacks are often the best
defense.

Tavern Tale 45
Cultists of Moander are starting to roam the area again.

Tavern Tale 46
The Elven Court is guarded by a force of knights. they're trying to
keep something in, not keep people out.

Tavern Tale 47
A party of insects was seen heading into the forest, heading for Myth
Drannor.

Tavern Tale 48
The Temple of Bane employs beholders to discipline their priests.
They also have an entire corps of the critters to destroy major
enemies.

Tavern Tale 49
Voonlai's been building up troops again. Glad they have rotten
commanders.

Tavern Tale 50
That crazy halfling running around here thinks she's a bard. She
sings OK but she ain't as good as Zazania Swallowtounge.

Tavern Tale 51
A black ship with a large crate came back from Mulmaster -- Bane's
highest temple. The Inquisitors are probably in town.

Tavern Tale 52
The release of Moander from the Pit was a plot by Zhentil Keep.

Tavern Tale 53
If you're polite and respectful to a Bane priest, they have to be
respectful back, not matter what they really think.

Tavern Tale 54
Dragons have been seen flying near Hillsfar. Something happening in
the south. Also creatures have been accumulating near Dagger Falls --
some ancient caverns have been reopened.

Tavern Tale 55
The Cormyr representative was preparing to leave after hearing the
king found his daughter, but he was called back because she escaped
again.

Tavern Tale 56
Green robed cultists have been seen around the Pit. They must be
pining for Old Moldy.

Tavern Tale 57
The city guard is pulling out away from the Temple. They don't want
to get caught in a crossfire.

Tavern Tale 58
Voonlar hopes to build an arena for criminals, like Zhentil Keep has.

Tavern Tale 59
A young woman with a purple sash stole the crown jewels from the ruins
of the Yulash palace. Rode though the gate and escaped with a man.

Tavern Tale 60
Huge shapes have flown over the forest, heading south.

Tavern Tale 61
The Stojanow River valley is being converted to farms again. They
pyramid is now used as part of the irrigation system.

Tavern Tale 62
The previous high priest of Gond, Gharri, was Princess Nacacia's lover
for while.

MYSTERIOUS WAND


APPENDICES

RANGE OF ABILITY SCORES BY RACE

ABILITY DWARF ELF GNOME HALF-ELF HALFING HUMAN
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strength (Male) 8-18(99) 3-18(75) 6-18(50) 3-18(90) 6-17 3-18(00)
Strength (Female) 8-17 3-16 6-15 3-17 6-14 3-18(50)
Intelligence 3-18 8-18 7-18 4-18 6-18 3-18
Wisdom 3-18 3-18 3-18 3-18 3-17 3-18
Dexterity 3-17 7-19 3-18 6-18 8-18 3-18
Constitution 12-19 6-18 8-18 6-18 10-19 3-18
Charisma 3-16 8-18 3-18 3-18 3-18 3-18
Minimum Ability Score-Maximum Ability Score
(xx)=maximum percentage for an 18 strength



MAXIMUM LEVEL LIMITS BY RACE, CLASS, AND PRIME REQUISITE

CLASS ABILILTY DWARF ELF GNOME HALF-ELF HALFING HUMAN
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleric Any no no no 5 no 10*
Fighter STR 16- 7 5 5 6 4 12*
STR 17 8 6 5 7 5 12*
STR 18+ 9 7 6 8 no 12*
Paldin Any no no no no no 11*
Ranger STR 16- no no no 6 no 11*
STR 17 no no no 7 no 11*
STR 18+ no no no 8 no 11*
Magic-User INT 16- no 9 no 6 no 11*
INT 17 no 10 no 7 no 11*
INT 18 no 11 no 8 no 11*
Thief Any 12* 12* 12* 12* 12* 12*

no:Characters of this race cannot be of this class.
*:Highest Level Available in CURSE OF THE AZURE BONDS. Normal AD&D
Characters have unlimited level advancement in these classes.



ARMOR AND WEAPONS PERMITTED BY CHARACTER CLASS

CLASS MAX ARMOR SHIELD WEAPONS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleric any any club, flail, hammer, mace, staff,
staff ring
Fighter any any any
Paladin any any any
Ranger any any any
Magic-User none none dagger, dart, staff
Thief leather none club, dagger, dart, sling, short bow,
one-handed swords.



SPELL PARAMETERS LIST
This is a listing of spells available to player characters as they
gain in level. The following are abbreviations used in the list:

Cmbt=Combat only spell r=combat rounds
Camp=Camp only spel t=turns
Both=Camp or Combat spell /lvl=per level of caster
T=Touch Range targets=aim at each target
dia=diameter R=Red Mage Spell
rad=radius W=White Mage Spell
All=All characters in combat



1ST-LEVEL CLERICAL SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
--------------------------------------------------------------
Bless Both 6 5dia 6r
Curse Cmbt 6 5dia 6r
Cure Light Wounds Both T 1 -
Cause Light Wounds Cmbt T 1 -
Detect Magic Both 3 1 1t
Protection from Evil Both T 1 3r/lvl
Protection from Good Both T 1 3r/lvl
Resist Cold Both T 1 1t/lvl



2ND-LEVEL CLERICAL SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
--------------------------------------------------------------
Find Trap Camp 3 1 3t
Hold Person Cmbt 6 1-3 targets 4r+lvl
Resist Fire Both T 1 1t/lvl
Silence 15'Radius Cmbt 12 3dia 2r/lvl
Slow Poison Camp T 1 1 hour/lvl
Snake Charm Cmbt 3 All 5-8r
Spiritual Hammer Cmbt 3 1 1r/lvl



3RD-LEVEL CLERICAL SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
---------------------------------------------------------------
Cure Blindness Both T 1 -
Cause Blindness Cmbt T 1 -
Cure Disease Camp T 1 -
Cause Disease Cmbt T 1 -
Dispel Magic Cmbt 6 3x3 -
Prayer Both 0 3dia 1r/lvl
Remove Curse Both T 1
Bestow Curse Cmbt T 1 1t/lvl



4TH-LEVEL CLERICAL SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
-----------------------------------------------------------
Cure Serious Wounds Both T 1 -
Cause Serious Wounds Cmbt T 1 -
Neutralize Poison Camp T 1 -
Poison Cmbt T 1 -
Protection from
Evil 10' Radius Both T 2dia 1t/lvl
Sticks to Snakes Cmbt 3 1 1r/lvl



5TH-LEVEL CLERICAL SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
-----------------------------------------------------------
Cure Critical Wounds Both T 1 -
Cause Critical Wounds Cmbt T 1 -
Dispel Evil Both T 1 1r/lvl
Flame Strike Cmbt 6 1 -
Raise Dead Camp 3 1 -
Slay Living Cmbt 3 1 -



1ST-LEVEL DRUIDICAL SPELLS
(FOR HIGH-LEVEL RANGERS)

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
-----------------------------------------------------------
Detect Magic Both 0 1 12r
Entangle Cmbt 8 4 dia 1t
Faerie Fire Cmbt 8 8 dia 4r/lvl
Invisibility to Animals Both T 1 1t+1r/lvl



1ST-LEVEL MAGIC-USER SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Burning Hands Cmbt T 1 -
Charm Person Cmbt 12 1 -
Detect Magic Both 0 1 2r/lvl
Enlarge Both .5/lvl 1 1t/lvl
Reduce Both .5/lvl 1 -
Friends Camp 0 All 1r/lvl
Magic Missile Cmbt 6+lvl 1 -
Protection from Evil Both T 1 2r/lvl
Protection from Good Both T 1 2r/lvl
Read Magic Camp 0 1 2r/lvl
Shield Both 0 1 5r/lvl
Shcoking Grasp Cmpt T 1 -
Sleep Cmpt 3+lvl 1-16 5r/lvl



2ND-LEVEL MAGIC-USER SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Detect Invisibilty Both lvl All 5r/lvl
Invisibility Both T 1 -
Knock Camp 6 lvl -
Mirror Image Both 0 1 2r/lvl
Ray of Enfeeblement Cmbt 1+.25/lvl 1 1r/lvl
Stinking Cloud Cmbt 3 2x2 1r/lvl
Strength Camp T 1 6t/lvl



3RD-LEVEL MAGIC-USED SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
------------------------------------------------------------
Blink Both 0 1 1r/lvl
Dispel Magic Cmbt 12 3x3 -
Fireball Cmbt 10+lvl 2 rad -
Haste Both 6 5 dia 3r+lvl
Hold Person Cmbt 12 1-4 2r/lvl
Invisibility 10'Rad Both T 2 dia -
Lightning Bolt Cmbt 4+1/vl 4,8 -
Protection from
Evil 10'Rad Both T 2 dia 2r/lvl
Protection from
Normal Missile Both T 1 1t/lvl
Slow Cmbt 9+lvl 5 dia 3r+lvl



4TH-LEVEL MAGIC-USER SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
------------------------------------------------------------_
Charm Monster Cmbt 6 1+ -
Confusion Cmbt 12 2-16,3rad 2r+1/lvl
Dimension Door Cmbt 0 1 -
Fear Cmbt 0 6x3 cone 1r/lvl
Fire Shield (2 Types) Both 0 1 2r+1/lvl
Fumble Cmbt lvl 1 1r/lvl
Ice Storm (Dmg only) Cmbt lvl 5dia -
Min Globe of
Invulnerability Both 0 1 1r/lvl
Remove Curse Both T 1 -
Bestow Curse Cmbt T 1 1t/lvl



5TH-LEVEL MAGIC-USER SPELLS

SPELL NAME WHEN RANGE AREA DURATION
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Cloudkill Cmbt 1 3x3 1r/lvl
Cone of Cold Cmbt 0 .5/lvl cone -
Feeblemind Cmbt 1/lvl 1 -
Hold Monster Cmbt .5/lvl 1-4 targets 1r/lvl



WEAPON LIST
DAMAGE VS.
DAMAGE VS. LARGERTHAN NUMBER
NAME MAN SIZED MAN SIZED OF HANDS CLASS
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Axe, Hand 1-6 1-4 1 f
Bardiche+ 2-8 3-12 2 f
*** Sword 2-8 2-16 2 f
Battleaxe 1-8 1-8 1 f
Bec de Cordin+ 1-8 1-6 2 f
Bill-Guisarme+ 2-8 1-10 2 f
Bo Stick 1-6 1-3 2 f
Broad Sword 2-8 2-7 1 f,th
Club 1-6 1-3 1 f,cl,th
Dagger 1-4 1-3 1 f,mu,th
Dart 1-3 1-2 1 f,mu,th
Fauchard+ 1-6 1-8 2 f
Fauchard-Fork+ 1-8 1-10 2 f
Flail 2-7 2-8 1 f,cl
Fork, Military+ 1-8 2-8 2 f
Glaive+ 1-6 1-10 2 f
Glaive,Guisame+ 2-8 2-12 2 f
Guisarme+ 2-8 1-8 2 f
Guisarme-Voulge+ 2-8 2-8 2 f
Halberd+ 1-10 2-12 2 f
Lucern Hammer+ 2-8 1-6 1 f
Hammer 2-5 1-4 1 f,cl
Javelin 1-6 1-6 1 f
Jo Stick 1-6 1-4 1 f
Long Sword 1-8 1-12 1 f,th
Mace 2-7 1-6 1 f,cl
Morning Star 2-8 2-7 1 f
Partisan+ 1-6 2-7 2 f
Pick, Military 2-5 1-4 1 f
Pike, Awl+ 1-6 1-12 1 f
Quarterstaff 1-6 1-6 2 f,cl,mu
Ranseur+ 2-8 2-8 2 f
Scimitar 1-8 1-8 1 f,th
Short Sword 1-6 1-8 1 f,th
Spear 1-6 1-8 1 f
Spetum+ 2-7 2-12 2 f
Trident 2-7 3-12 1 f
Two-Handed Sword 1-10 3-18 2 f
Voulge+ 2-8 2-8 2 f
Composite
Long Bow* 1-6 1-6 2 f
Composite
Short Bow* 1-6 1-6 2 f
Long Bow* 1-6 1-6 2 f
Light Crossbow# 1-4 1-4 2 f
Short Bow* 1-6 1-6 2 f,th
Sling 2-5 2-7 1 f,th
Staff Sling 2-8 3-9 2 f,cl

Notes for Weapon List:
+Polearm
*Must have ready arrows to fire. Two Attacks per round.
#Must have ready quarrels to fire. One Attack per round.
f=fighter, cl=cleric, th-thief, mu=magic-user



ARMOR LIST
WEIGHT MAXIMUM
ARMOR TYPE IN SP AC MOVEMENT*
------------------------------------------------------------
None 0 10 -
Shield,Small# 50 9 -
Leather 50 8 12 squares
Padded 100 8 9 squares
Studded 200 7 9 squares
Ring 250 7 9 squares
Scale 400 6 6 squares
Chain 300 5 9 squares
Splint 400 4 6 squares
Banded 350 4 9 squares
Plate 450 3 6 squares

*A character carrying many objects, including a large number of coins,
can be limited in movement to a mazimum of 3 spuares per turn.

*A Shield subtracts 1 AC from any armor it's used with.



TABLE OF EXPERIENCE PER LEVEL

The following charts show the amount of experience a character must
earn in order to gain a level in his character class. The charts also
list the number of spells that a character can have memorized at one
time. Fighters and Thieves can never memorize spells.

Remember that all experiences earned by a non-human, mutiple-class
character is divided by the number of classes that character has. The
experience is divided even after the character has reached his maximum
level in a particular class. A Human dual-class character only earns
experience in his second class. The character cannot use the
abilities of his first class until his level in his second class
exceeds his level in his first class.



CLERIC
NUMBER OF SPELLS
HIT CLERICAL SPELL LEVEL
LEVEL EXPERIENCE DICE 1 2 3 4 5 LEVEL TITLE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 0-1,500 1d8 1 - - - - Acolyte
2 1,501-3,000 2d8 2 - - - - Adept
3 3,001-6,000 3d8 2 1 - - - Priest
4 6,001-13,000 4d8 3 2 - - - Curate
5 13,001-27,500 5d8 3 3 1 - - -
6 27,501-55,000 6d8 3 3 2 - - Canon
7 55,001-110,000 7d8 3 3 2 1 - Lama
8 110,001-225,000 8d8 3 3 3 2 - Patriarch
9 225,001-450,000 9d8 4 4 3 2 1 High Priest
10 450,001-675,000 9d8+2 4 4 3 3 2 -

*Bonus Spells For Clerics with High Wisdom Ability Score



CLERIC'S WISDOM
BONUS SPELLS
1 2 3 4 5
-----------------------------------
9-12 - - - - -
13 +1 - - - -
14 +2 - - - -
15 +2 +1 - - -
16 +2 +2 - - -
17 +2 +2 +1 - -
18 +2 +2 +1 +1 -

Note that these bonus spells are only available when the cleric is
entitled to spells of the applicable level. Thus a 6th-level cleric
with a Wisdom of 18 can memorize the following spells:

NUMBER OF SPELLS PER LEVEL
1 2 3 4 5
------------------------------------------------------
6th-Level Cleric
with 18 Wisdom 5 5 3 - -



FIGHTER
HIT
LEVEL EXPERIENCE DICE LEVEL TITLE
-----------------------------------------------------
1 0-2,000 1d10 Veteran
2 2,001-4,000 2d10 Warrior
3 4,001-8,000 3d10 Swordsman
4 8,001-18,000 4d10 Hero
5 18,001-35,000 5d10 Swashbuckler
6 35,001-70,000 6b10 Myrmidon
7 70,001-125,000 7d10 Champion
8 125,001-250,000 8d10 Superhero
9 250,001-500,000 9d10 Lord
10 500,001-750,000 9d10+3 -
11 750,001-1,000,000 9d10+6 -
12 1,000,001-1,250,000 9d10+9 -



PALADIN
NUMBER OF SPELLS
HIT
LEVEL EXPERIENCE DICE 1 2 LEVEL TITLE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 0-2,750 1d10 - - Gallant
2 2,751-5,500 2d10 - - Keeper
3 5,501-12,000 3d10 - - Protector
4 12,001-24,000 4d10 - - Defender
5 24,001-45,000 5d10 - - Warder
6 45,001-95,000 6d10 - - Guardian
7 95,001-175,000 7d10 - - Chevalier
8 175,001-350,000 8d10 - - Justiciar
9 350,001-700,000 9d10 1 - Paladin
10 700,001-1,050,000 9d10+3 2 - -
11 1,050,001-1,400,000 9d10+6 2 1 -



RANGER
NUMBER OF SPELLS
DRUIDIC & MAGIC
HIT USER SPELL LEVEL
LEVEL EXPERIENCE DICE 1 1 LEVEL TITLE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 0-2,250 2d8 - - Runner
2 2,251-4,500 3d8 - - Strider
3 4,501-10,000 4d8 - - Scout
4 10,001-20,000 5d8 - - Courser
5 20,001-40,000 6d8 - - Tracker
6 40,001-90,000 7d8 - - Guide
7 90,001-150,000 8d8 - - Pathfinder
8 150,001-225,000 9d8 1 - Ranger
9 225,001-325,000 10d8 1 1 Ranger Knight
10 325,001-650,000 11d8 2 1 Ranger Lord
11 650,001-975,000 11d8+2 2 2 -



MAGIC-USER
NUMBER OF SPELLS
MAGIC-USER
HIT SPELL LEVEL
LEVEL EXPERIENCE DICE 1 2 3 4 5 LEVEL TITLE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 0-2,500 1d4 1 - - - - Prestidigator
2 2,501-5,000 2d4 2 - - - - Evoker
3 5,001-10,000 3d4 2 1 - - - Conjurer
4 10,001-22,500 4d4 3 2 - - - Theurgist
5 22,501-40,000 5d4 4 2 1 - - Thaumaturgist
6 40,001-60,000 6d4 4 2 2 - - Magician
7 60,001-90,000 7d4 4 3 2 1 - Enchanter
8 90,001-135,000 8d4 4 3 3 2 - Warlock
9 135,001-250,000 9d4 4 4 3 2 1 Sorcerer
10 250,001-375,000 10d4 4 4 4 2 2 Necromancer
11 375,001-750,000 11d4 4 4 4 3 3 Wizard



THIEF
HIT
LEVEL EXPERIENCE DICE LEVEL TITLE
-------------------------------------------------------
1 0-1,250 1d6 Rogue
2 1,251-2,500 2d6 Footpad
3 2,501-5,000 3d6 Cutpurse
4 5,001-10,000 4d6 Robber
5 10,001-20,000 5d6 Burglar
6 20,001-42,500 6d6 Ficher
7 42,501-70,000 7d6 Sharper
8 70,001-110,000 8d6 Magsman
9 110,001-160,000 9d6 Thief
10 160,001-220,000 10d6 Master Thief
11 220,001-440,000 10d6+2 -
12 440,001-660,000 10d6+4 -

I dont think this deserves repeating
Bloy
Eh!!
neonumbskull makes his daily appearance to further his exercise in futility.... dry.gif

....in this case, his degenerating use of a forum...disguised as some form of obscure humor. dry.gif
NEONOM
QUOTE (Bloy+Oct 2 2008, 04:16 PM)
Eh!!
neonumbskull makes his daily appearance to further his exercise in futility.... dry.gif

biggrin.gif

AND YOU DONT, BLOYFAIRY? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Bloy
QUOTE (NEONOM+Oct 2 2008, 10:18 AM)
biggrin.gif

AND YOU DONT, BLOYFAIRY? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Hey! aren't you supposed to be out selling t-shirts? I know great minds often take jobs that allow them to focus their thinking into their true work, but, aren't you supposed to think?
NEONOM
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

He did it twice! laugh.gif laugh.gif
MisterBelfry
>>> I dont think this deserves repeating <<<

I second the motion.

OTOH, Gog and Magog does deserve something more than numerology and a very short thread.

MrB.
photojack
Where do all these degenerates come from? wacko.gif
How about posting something that shows you can read, comprehend science and comment with intelligence and foresight. ohmy.gif

IF NOT, GO AWAY! ph34r.gif We've got much better things to do.

Since there are no problems with evolution, how about commenting on this? biggrin.gif

Mass extinctions and the evolution of dinosaurs.

Reporting in Biology Letters, Steve Brusatte, Professor Michael Benton, and colleagues at the University of Bristol show that dinosaurs did not proliferate immediately after they originated, but that their rise was a slow and complicated event, and driven by two mass extinctions.

"The sheer size of dinosaurs like Tyrannosaurus makes us think there was something special about these animals that preordained them for success right from the beginning," Brusatte said. "However, our research shows that the rise of dinosaurs was a prolonged and complicated process. It isn't clear from the data that they would go on to dominate the world until at least 30 million years after they originated."

Importantly, the new research also shows that dinosaurs evolved into all their classic lifestyles – big predators, long-necked herbivores, etc. – long before they became abundant or diversified into the many different species we know today.


Brusatte added: "It just wasn't a case of dinosaurs exploding onto the scene because of a special adaptation. Rather, they had to wait their turn and evolved in fits and starts before finally dominating their world."

Dinosaurs originated about 230 million years ago and survived the Late Triassic mass extinction (228 million years ago), when some 35 per cent of all living families died out. It was their predecessors dying out during this extinction that allowed herbivorous dinosaurs to expand into the niches they left behind.

The rapid expansion of carnivorous and armoured dinosaur groups did not happen until after the much bigger mass extinction some 200 million year ago, at the Triassic-Jurassic boundary. At least half of the species now known to have been living on Earth at that time became extinct, which profoundly affected life on land and in the oceans.

Historically the rise of the dinosaurs has been treated as a classic case in which a group evolves key features that allow it to rapidly expand, fill many niches, and out-compete other groups. But Professor Benton said the story isn't so simplistic: "We argue that the expansion of the dinosaurs took up to 50 million years and was not a simple process that can be explained with broad generalizations." From: http://machineslikeus.com/news/mass-extinc...ution-dinosaurs
vkamath
QUOTE (BigFairy+Oct 3 2008, 03:07 PM)




BUT I COMPLETED THE GAME WHEN I WAS 14

NOPE FAIL K ?
MisterBelfry
>>> FFS SOMEONE QUOTE SOME FKING BIBLE PASSAGES OR SOMETHING! QUICK! <<<

What is the hurry? What is FFS? How about, repent, the time is near? tongue.gif

MrB.

pnelson419
QUOTE (BigFairy+Oct 3 2008, 07:13 PM)
SOMEONE QUOTE SOME BIBLE PASSAGES QUIK!

Matthew 23:33 (New International Version)

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
TheDoc
EVERYONE KNOWS THAT BIBLE PASSAGES ARE THE WAY FORWARD. EVEN EINSTEIN KNEW.

"I WANT TO KNOW HOW GOD CREATED THIS WORLD. I WANT TO KNOW HIS THOUGHTS. THE REST ARE DETAILS." ALBERT EINSTEIN

SEE? HE WASN'T AN ATHEIST. PERIOD. tongue.gif

MITCH RAEMSCH --LIGHT MAKES A COMEBACK--
pnelson419
Ephesians 4 (New International Version)

29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
pnelson419
Habakkuk 3:18 (New International Version)

yet I will rejoice in the LORD,
I will be joyful in God my Savior.
Sinister Utopia
Oh crap their evolving! mad.gif




"Problems with Evolution" laugh.gif
FGG
QUOTE (TheDoc+Oct 3 2008, 05:38 PM)
EVERYONE KNOWS THAT BIBLE PASSAGES ARE THE WAY FORWARD. EVEN EINSTEIN KNEW.

"I WANT TO KNOW HOW GOD CREATED THIS WORLD. I WANT TO KNOW HIS THOUGHTS. THE REST ARE DETAILS." ALBERT EINSTEIN

SEE? HE WASN'T AN ATHEIST. PERIOD.  tongue.gif

MITCH RAEMSCH --LIGHT MAKES A COMEBACK--

read more about Einstien's beliefs before spouting off about his beliefs. Hi idea of god was more akin to "mother nature" than any religions god!

The way back to the dark ages is through religion and god! The way forward is secular!

FGG
NEONOM
BigFairy = imploding creationist. wink.gif
NEONOM
QUOTE (BigFairy+Oct 4 2008, 07:03 AM)



IAM COMPLETELY SELF CONTAINED




Nah, your on the payroll. wink.gif
pnelson419
Jeremiah 18 (New International Version)

7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
NEONOM
QUOTE (pnelson419+Oct 4 2008, 08:49 AM)
Jeremiah 18 (New International Version)

7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

Sid 6:66 fuckoff you twanny.
Capracus
ll
Capracus
BigFairy at work.
http://www.worldofwar.net/gallery/data/500/southpark.jpg
MisterBelfry
>>>

Again, you didn't define travel properly, I'm only 19 ...


--------------------



I ams what I ams. <<<


CHARLIE
Dad, this is Dr. Ray Galinski. He's
helping me perform a mathematical analysis
of this crash here.

ALAN
(off computer graphics)
Where's the math? I just see a couple
of lines on a road.

GALINSKI
Embedded in the model.

CHARLIE
A computer simulation is just a
mathematical representation of the
real world. Sir Isaac Newton --
</pre>


While the problem at hand is more one of mechanics than pure mathematics, Charlie has no trouble solving it. Historically, physics has initiated many important mathematical concepts. So Charlie keeps up with various areas of physics in order catch developments with potential mathematical ramifications. But to make sure he will not miss a crucial practical aspect, Charlie teams up with a mechanical engineer. And, as of today, mathematical papers about simple-looking mechanics regularly appear in top mathematical journals.




CHARLIE
That article I wrote, A Mathematical
Analysis of Friendship Dynamics?

DON
Yeah, yeah.

CHARLIE
McCadden Books want to publish it,
but not as a text book. As a
self-help book.


Interestingly, one source of unexpectedly useful crash information is light bulb filaments (which includes halogen headlights but excludes LED headlights, as well as the LED taillights in recent BMW models). It just so happens that the filaments of everyday incandescent light bulbs are quite sensitive to accelerations of 20 to 50g (1g is the normal acceleration due to gravity at the surface of the Earth) over periods of around 100 milliseconds, which are precisely the sort of conditions encountered in typical accidents.


CHARLIE
The LAPD accident analysis will tell
you how that happened, right?

DON
Thing is I got to find out why.

CHARLIE
That's tricky -- finding motives in
skid marks and trajectories.

DON
That's what I got you for, right?
--Episode 402
eyeque
Mr Belfry, You are in the godly contemplative pressense os chhris soultech momentito piatlat eyeque : Thousands of science ideas posts!

Mr Belfrey? what is that? a grotty name for a dumb *** who cant fight amongst the bastards like nom and the dtc. Your not a middile aged baldy looser, your a kid in disguse. And dont give me any more Misters because this fifty year old wild crush your fist in a test of streanght any day
MisterBelfry
Re: Eyeque{Grace without Race Spirituality------> Showtopic= 23237}
...consider the Name of God YHVW (Yahweh, meaning "I Am Who I Am"), illustrated below
http://numb3rs.wolfram.com/404/images/YHVH.gif
as written in Phoenician (1100 BC to AD 300), Aramaic (10th Century BC to 0) and modern Hebrew scripts.
http://numb3rs.wolfram.com/404/images/Gematria.gif
Using the above gematria table to assign values to the Hebrew characters yodh he waw he (read right to left) then gives a gematria value of 10 + 5 + 6 + 5 = 26.


Mathematical beauty in nature and art

ALEX TROWBRIDGE
You don't believe any of this, do you?

CHARLIE
What, that numbers are spiritual and
magical and mystical, no. I'm a
mathematician.

ALEX TROWBRIDGE
What about Fibonacci numbers, the Golden
Ratio?

CHARLIE
There is evidence that math occurs
spontaneously in nature and in art.
And I do acknowledge that there is
some mystery to that -- some beauty
to that...



Mathematics of natural form=?Grace

LIZ
Seems like it's not just about the
numbers. The racial elements of the design
are just as important.

This sparks Charlie, he studies the imagery, the nautilus
shell...

FLASH CHARLIE VISION

Spiralling numbers flowing out of the nautilus shell like
a vivid natural life force.

TheDoc
QUOTE (eyeque+Oct 6 2008, 01:13 PM)
And dont give me any more Misters because this fifty year old wild crush your fist in a test of streanght any day

laugh.gif Was that supposed to scare him, Chris?
MisterBelfry
23342 =Showtopic<-------------More for the Complex Problems within Evolution.

& I would add carbon dioxide is not a pollutant!! The "far from equilibrium" is just as much about the surface as it is about Earth's 'top of atmosphere'.


MrB.
eyeque
MisterBelfrey, I think i discused this paradox with yor-on previously about Carbon 14 dating (Its got nothiting to do with dating a 14 y old, putting her in the boot and threatening to reduce the car to carbon if she doesnt compromise lol)

Why C14 evaporates at a period whilst fresh c14 (from where) nourishes everything to pretend today? where from, Like to shed some phylosophy on carbon 14 dating MrBelfrey?
Grumpy
IQ=0

Carbon 14 is everywhere in the atmosphere, it is a rare isotope of normal carbon with a known rate of breakdown(halflife) over time. When a plant or animal is alive it is constantly taking in the carbon 14, but this intake stops when the organism dies. Since the carbon 14 is no longer being replenished the ratio of C14 to regular carbon drops off over time. Measuring this ratio gives the time since the death of that organism. Since the halflife is somewhere on the order 0f 10,000 years(for half the C14 to breakdown), the technique is only good for about 50,000 years before C14 levels fall to near zero.

Grumpy cool.gif
MisterBelfry
Re: Any previous posting history with Eyeque - None that I could find, however "eyeque" did post in this------>

Showtopic= 22340 thread.

QUOTE (Re-Posted by: MisterBelfry Jan 13 2008 @ 12:39 PM)

As a devolutionist myself, all I have got to say is the estimated age of most anything varies wildly, so I remain agnostic. A devolutionist accepts evolution to the point of being a creationist. One age fits all, yes, but it does not have to be six thousand.



QUOTE
http://www.icr.org/articles/print/64/
Process 70 of 76 listings of Indicated Age
Escape of high-velocity stars from globular clusters 40,000 years



http://www.grisda.org/origins/08020.htm
Radioactive Decay Sequences (20)
...
Discordant ages generally have a rational explanation in terms of metamorphic events that the sample may have experienced.
It is well known that a radiometric age is equivalent to the corresponding real time age if the initial conditions are specified with sufficient accuracy and precision, the associated radioactive decay constant(s) has (have) not changed essentially during the time involved, and the sample has been chemically isolated during this time. The large number of cases in which essential agreement exists between diverse radiometric age determinations can hardly be fortuitous, and indicate that samples can be obtained which meet the requirements for conversion of radiometric age into real time. All the radiometric age data that have accumulated for minerals from meteorites, the Moon and planet Earth lead to the conclusion that these portions of the Solar System have been in existence and contained solid material for 4.56 b.y. The available radiometric evidence indicates that the present crust of Earth does not contain rocks older than 3.9 b.y.

Posted in Showtopic= 20198: MisterBelfry Feb 3 2008, 09:22 AM

http://www.icr.org/articles/print/64/

Nevertheless, all things considered, it seems that those ages on the low end of the spectrum are likely to be more accurate than those on the high end. This conclusion follows from the obvious fact that: (1) they are less likely to have been affected by initial concentrations or positions other than "zero"; (2) the assumption that the system was a "closed system" is more likely to be valid for a short time than for a long time; (3) the assumption that the process rate was constant is also more likely to be valid for a short time than for a long time.

...

Posted by: MisterBelfry Aug 2 2008, 10:11 AM
However, the data presented by Dr. Dalrymple are not incompatible with a model which allows for most of the Solar System to have come into existence about 4.5 billion years ago, the creation of life on planet Earth within the last 10,000 years, and a subsequent reorganization of the planet's surface by a cataclysm in which there was water burial of a vast number of organisms.

The final technical treatment in the book (Chapter 8) completes age considerations with a summary of speculative models concerning the ages of stars and galaxies. Readers who follow details carefully should correct Table 8.5 on p. 388 to specify 1/137.88 for R of 235U/238U.
In concluding this review, I should say that in my opinion it is both incorrect and inadequate to model the physical features of the universe on the basis of natural evolution from an unexplainable initial "Big Bang"; and that it is equally incorrect to ignore the evidence for physical process and change. The basic data and their implications as given in The Age of the Earth present no conflict with biblical testimony as long as the creation account is interpreted strictly in accord with the definitions given in Genesis 1:8-10, and if the radioisotope ages of material that encloses or overlies fossils are recognized as having no more relationship to fossil age than similar data for a modern cemetery, or a community buried by a landslide, have to the dates of the interments therein.

This link:
http://www.grisda.org/origins/19087.htm

is found[Url=http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html] in the link[url] I just gave above. Hey Brother, Brown!


Posted by: MisterBelfry Yesterday 9/2 2008 at 11:34 AM
On the second day of Creation, the waters covering the earth's surface were divided into two great reservoirs—one below the firmament and one above, the firmament being the "expanse" above the earth now corresponding to the troposphere. The mechanism whereby this result was accomplished, together with any side effects, has not been revealed. p. 229
Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood. ------->Showtopic= 22842, Forum= 14.
MisterBelfry
QUOTE
23342 =Showtopic<-------------More for the Complex Problems within Evolution.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
23342 =Showtopic<-------------More for the Complex Problems within Evolution.MisterBelfrey, I think i discused this paradox with yor-on previously
QUOTE
Re: Any previous posting history with Eyeque - None that I could find,
Ahh, Yoron or yor_on, Showuser= 15825...


http://www.physforum.com/index.php?&showtopic=20725&st=30

buttershug
QUOTE (Grumpy+Oct 10 2008, 06:15 PM)
IQ=0

Carbon 14 is everywhere in the atmosphere, it is a rare isotope of normal carbon with a known rate of breakdown(halflife) over time. When a plant or animal is alive it is constantly taking in the carbon 14, but this intake stops when the organism dies. Since the carbon 14 is no longer being replenished the ratio of C14 to regular carbon drops off over time. Measuring this ratio gives the time since the death of that organism. Since the halflife is somewhere on the order 0f 10,000 years(for half the C14 to breakdown), the technique is only good for about 50,000 years before C14 levels fall to near zero.

Grumpy cool.gif

I think you should also mention that carbon14 is being replenished in the atmoshpere. (by solar radiation I believe).


Hey wait a minute if that is how it works then how did they carbon date the gold in the movie Time Cop?
(I hated that movie)
Grumpy
buttershug


QUOTE
I think you should also mention that carbon14 is being replenished in the atmoshpere. (by solar radiation I believe).


Yes, the supply is relatively steady from natural sources.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I think you should also mention that carbon14 is being replenished in the atmoshpere. (by solar radiation I believe).


Yes, the supply is relatively steady from natural sources.


Hey wait a minute if that is how it works then how did they carbon date the gold in the movie Time Cop?


They DIDN'T!!! And I have yet to see a movie from the "Muscles from Brussels" that didn't suck!

Grumpy cool.gif
MisterBelfry
13. R. S. Boekl, "Search for Carbon 14 in Tektites", Journal of Geophysical Research, Vol. 77, No. 2 (1972), pp. 367-368.

45. Formation of Carbon 14 on meteorites 100,000 years [Ref.]13

The origin of all things by special creation—already necessitated by many other scientific considerations—is therefore also indicated by chronometric data.

Finally, the reader should note that these conclusions were reached with no reference at all to the testimony of the Bible relative to chronology. It is, therefore, all the more significant that these results correspond closely to the brief chronology of terrestrial and human history given long ago by divine revelation in the Holy Scriptures.

TABLE I
Uniformitarian Estimates—Age of the Earth
(Unless otherwise noted, based on standard assumptions of closed systems, constant rates, and no initial daughter components.)

http://www.icr.org/articles/print/64/
originally published August, 1974




1991
G. Brent Dalrymple. .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There has been a long-standing need for a convenient compilation of the radiometric data from which conclusions have been drawn concerning the length of time planet Earth and other components of the Solar System have been in existence. The Age of the Earth meets this need more than adequately. The author is Research Geologist at the U.S. Geological Survey, Menlo Park, California, and is preeminently qualified to give a comprehensive, authoritative, and readable treatment of the topics he addresses.
In his Preface he states that the book was "written for people with some modest background in science, ... [to be] useful and informative to those without a deep knowledge of geology or physics." The book provides valuable resource material for individuals who make a professional-level witness for a creationist viewpoint, although the author's analysis of data is from a purely secular, uniformitarian approach that dismisses concepts of supernatural and revelation as purely human and non-authoritative.

Technical terms and concepts are explained within the text so that the treatment is understandable to the non-specialist. A 14-page glossary provides additional assistance. The treatment is well-illustrated by 15 half-tones, 14 maps, and 98 high-quality line drawings. Many readers will not be interested in the extensive mineralogical and geological detail in some sections of Dr. Dalrymple's treatment, but the persistent reader will be well rewarded.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/19087.htm

Scratch planet------->Showtopic= 22521.
Posted by: MisterBelfry Today-8/18-2008 at 11:37 AM
QUOTE
Nobody now suggests that the Earth does not orbit the Sun,



I does. Use special relativity, which can be understood as there is no center that is not a center somplace else.

MrB.

QUOTE

I think you should also mention that carbon14 is being replenished in the atmoshpere. (by solar radiation I believe).

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

I think you should also mention that carbon14 is being replenished in the atmoshpere. (by solar radiation I believe).

Yes, the supply is relatively steady from natural sources.

QUOTE
Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood. ------->Showtopic= 22842, Forum= 14.

Cosmic rays and cloudiness is more in the supernatural realm!
MrB.
eyeque
Thank you vey kindly for addressing the jist of the my Carbon 14 delema, but your answer doest tell where the above ground c14 comes from!! Your a good juvenile, however i would like a dumb arse quantum proffessor to answer the question you respondes to, im 50 aswell, thewse fuckers have a hard nut to crack, i dont fa;; fpr their boloney lol, i know just as much as them, almost age wise
eyeque
QUOTE (Fairy+Oct 12 2008, 11:38 AM)
cool.gif



thank you

Yoh!!! Im feeling very happy, I have dowen numerous bottle os fortified wine 18% but im a kind soul becawuse nome hase enrageged m7y emotiont of real dignity.

So i love you all

But i will be an intoxicated basket case if omeone insults me!!!
TheDoc
QUOTE (eyeque+Oct 12 2008, 11:44 AM)
But i will be an intoxicated basket case if omeone insults me!!!

laugh.gif Was that meant to scare people, you idiot?
Grumpy
Bats


QUOTE
Cosmic rays and cloudiness is more in the supernatural realm!



biggrin.gif laugh.gif biggrin.gif

FSTDT material!!!

Grumpy cool.gif
MisterBelfry
>>> FSTDT material!!! <<<

If you are thanking me for filling in the gap that you left in response to Buttershug, you are then welcome.


MrB.
MisterBelfry
>>> "Search for Carbon 14 in Tektites", <<<

Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood, page 381.

"The significant feature about the relatively small ages indicated for the tektites is that they seem to be smaller than those of some of the terresterial strata in which they are deposited."

page 382:

"Another significant fact, difficult to reconcile with uniformitarianism, is that the tektites are apparently not found in any strata earlier than Tertiary."

Ref. "Tektites and the lost planet"
Grumpy
Bats

Trying to equate the carbon 14 found in extraterrestrial and inorganic materials is just ignorance, not science. Carbon 14 dating can only be used to date once living organisms and is limited to 50,000 years. Whitcomb and Morris are therefore seen for the idiots they are, not as a valid scientific source.

Grumpy cool.gif
MisterBelfry
QUOTE
Bats

Trying to equate the carbon 14 found in extraterrestrial and inorganic materials is just ignorance,
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Bats

Trying to equate the carbon 14 found in extraterrestrial and inorganic materials is just ignorance,page 382:

"Another significant fact, difficult to reconcile with uniformitarianism, is that the tektites are apparently not found in any strata earlier than Tertiary."

Ref. "Tektites and the lost planet" 


Web Results 1 - 213{the first two, then five and six} of about 1,290 for tektites "carbon 14". (0.41 seconds)

NOTICE THE DATE, About a Decade Older than The Genesis Flood.

Search for carbon 14 in tektites.Search for carbon 14 in tektites. Authors: Boeckl, R. S.. Publication: J.
Geophys. Res., Vol. 77, p. 367 - 368. Publication Date: 00/1972. Origin: ...
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1972JGR....77..367B - Similar pages


Energy Citations Database (ECD) - - Document #4705083Related Subject, CARBON ISOTOPES C-14/detection of cosmic-ray produced, in
tektites, (E);TEKTITES/carbon-14 in, cosmic-ray-produced, ...
http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/produc...ti_id%3D4705083 - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

PhysOrgForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums ...Oct 13, 2008 ... "Search for Carbon 14 in Tektites", <<< Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood,
page 381. "The significant feature about the relatively ...
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3414&st=600 - 41k - Cached - Similar pages


NASA Technical Reports ServerTitle: Search for carbon 14 in tektites. Author(s): Boeckl, R. S.. Abstract: An
attempt was made to detect cosmic-ray produced C-14 in australites and ...
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=480195&i...N%3D4294903555- 22k - Cached - Similar pages


http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=480195&i...=N%3D4294903555

Title: Search for carbon 14 in tektites.
Author(s): Boeckl, R. S.
Abstract: An attempt was made to detect cosmic-ray produced C-14 in australites and far-east tektites. No C-14 activity was found outside of statistical fluctuations. If a terrestrial age of 10 thousand years is assumed for australites, a maximum cosmic-ray exposure time of one thousand years is obtained for these tektites on the basis of a 2-sigma statistical error.
NASA Center: NASA (non Center Specific)
Publication Date: Jan 10, 1972
Document Source: Other Sources

No Digital Version Available: Go to Tips On Ordering
Document ID: 19720034095
Accession ID: 72A17761
Publication Information: Journal of Geophysical Research, 77, Jan. 10, Number of Pages = 2
Contract-Grant-Task Number: NGL-05-009-005
Related Information: 1972, p. 367, 368
Keywords: CARBON 14; COSMIC RAYS; GEOCHRONOLOGY; RADIOACTIVE AGE DETERMINATION; TEKTITES; AUSTRALITES; ERROR ANALYSIS; GEOCHEMISTRY; HALF LIFE;
Notes: Journal of Geophysical Research, vol. 77, Jan. 10, 1972, p. 367, 368.
Accessibility: Unclassified; Copyright; Unlimited; Publicly available;
Updated/Added to NTRS: 2004-11-03


+ Back to Top

MisterBelfry
>>> ERROR ANALYSIS; <<<

Page 200-1:
Carbon-14 ages may be in error by much more than the analytical uncertainty. Because of the extensive use of carbon-14 dating in studies of active tectonism, consideration should be given to the following three types of carbon-14 dating problems.
Fluctuations in Atmospheric Carbon-14
Based on carbon-14 dating of tree rings whose absolute age is known, carbon-14 ages deviate from actual ages by amounts that are significant for some tectonic studies. For example, in the interval from 5000 to 8000 yr ago, carbon-14 ages are about 500–900 yr too young (Klein et al., 1982). In the late Holocene, fluctuations in atmospheric carbon-14 introduce significant uncertainty in dating tectonic events (Figure 13.4 http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=624&page=202 ).

For example, a carbon-14 age of 150+20 ya (years before AD 1950) only defines an age in the interval from 0 to 295 calendar years before AD 1950 (Klein et al., 1982, Table 2).
Contamination with Old Carbon
Independent of the age of the sample, the effect of contamination with old carbon is constant (Figure 13.5 http://http://books.nap.edubooks.nap.edu/o...id=624&page=203 , upper left half). Regardless of whether a sample is 1 or 30 ka, incorporation of 10 percent “dead” carbon will make ages 800 yr too old. Old carbon may contaminate a sample in two ways. First, detrital carbon, such as that from coal of pre-Quaternary age which contains no carbon-14 or that from humic soil material which may have an age of several thousand years, may be incorporated in a sample. Second, plants and animals living underwater can incorporate lower activity carbon from CO2 in the water either because the water is old or because it has bicarbonate from old rocks. For marine mollusks from the North Atlantic, the age of CO2 in ocean water increases ages by 400 to 750 yr (Mangerud and Gulleksen, 1975).

Contamination with Young Carbon
Contamination with recent carbon can alter ages greatly. Samples whose ages are beyond the range of carbon dating (>75 ka) that are contaminated with only half a percent of recent carbon will yield an age of about 40 ka (Figure 13.5 http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=624&page=203 , lower right half). Even the most exacting of analyses can be in error: a carbon-14 enrichment age of 71 ka (representing only 0.014 percent of the original carbon-14 activity) was thought to date the Salmon Springs glaciation of northwest Washington State (Stuiver et al., 1978) until associated ash deposits were fission-track dated at 700 and 800 ka (Easterbrook et al., 1981).




http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-V1/1evlch06a.htm
31 - TEKTITES
Tektites are a special type of glassy meteorite. Large areas containing them are called "strewn fields." Although some scientists claim that tektites are of earthly origin, there is definite evidence that they are actually meteorites. Every so often, a shower of tektites falls to the earth. The first were found in 1787 in what is now western Czechoslovakia. Those in Australia were found in 1864. They were given the name tektites, from a Greek word for "molten," because they appear to have melted in their passage through the atmosphere. Tektites have also been found in Texas and several other places. Each shower lies on the surface or in the topmost layers of soil; they are never found in the sedimentary fossil-bearing strata. If the earth were 5 billion years old, as suggested by evolutionists, we should expect to find tektite showers in all the strata. If the earth is only a few thousand years old, and a Flood produced all the strata, we would expect to find the tektites only in the topmost layers of the ground, and not in the deeper strata. And that is where they are.

The tektites are found on top of, what evolutionary theory calls, "recent" soil, not beneath it. The evidence is clear that the tektites did not work their way up from beneath or wash down from older sediments at a higher elevation. Stream erosion studies in Czechoslovakia show that glass objects similar to tektite material will wear down to 1/90th of their original mass within only 40 km [24.84 miles]. In addition, studies made of australites (tektites found in Australia) revealed a complete lack of etching (scratch marks) on them. Comparing the data from the Czech and Australian tektites, it is clear that (1) both were found in their original locations, and (2) neither have been subjected to terrestrial weathering more than a few thousand years (see *Smithsonian Contributions to the Earth Science, No. 17).

In the 1960s two independent teams of investigators searched for additional australites in the field and, upon finding them, made radiocarbon datings of the wood by them and beneath them. Based on a Carbon 14 age of 7,300 years, these investigators say that the tektites cannot be older than an adjusted 6,500 years. This would make the age of the earth very young (see *Journal of the Geological Society of Australia, 18:409-418, and "Journal of Geophysical Research, 75:996-1002.)
(We recognize that carbon 14 dating tends to yield dates that are too old, but 6,500 years is far less than the millions that the evolutionists offer.)
That, in brief, is the story of the tektites, and it is yet another striking evidence of a young earth.

For a counter-View:
http://razd.evcforum.net/Age_Dating.htm
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