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ashken
HOW DOES THE COLLAPSE OF THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION DEMONSTRATE THE TRUTH OF CREATION?

When we ask how life on Earth emerged, we find two different answers:

One is that living things emerged by evolution. According to the theory of evolution, which makes this claim, life began with the first cell, which itself emerged by chance or by some hypothetical natural laws of "self-organization." Again as a result of chance and natural laws, this living cell developed and evolved, and by taking on different forms gave rise to the millions of species of life on Earth.

The second answer is "Creation." All living things came into existence by being created by an intelligent Creator. When life and the millions of forms it takes, which could not possibly have come into existence by chance, were first created, they had the same complete, flawless, and superior design that they possess today. The fact that even the simplest-looking forms of life possess such complex structures and systems that could never have come about by chance and natural conditions is a clear proof of this.

Outside these two alternatives, there is no third claim or hypothesis today regarding how life emerged. According to the rules of logic, if one answer to a question with two alternative possible answers is proved to be false, then the other must be true. This rule, one of the most fundamental in logic, is called disjunctive inference (modus tollendo ponens).

In other words, if it is demonstrated that living species on Earth did not evolve by chance, as the theory of evolution claims, then that is clear proof that they were formed by a Creator. Scientists who support the theory of evolution agree that there is no third alternative. One of these, Douglas Futuyma, makes the following statement:

Organisms either appeared on the earth fully developed or they did not. If they did not, they must have developed from pre-existing species by some process of modification. If they did appear in a fully developed state, they must indeed have been created by some omnipotent intelligence.

The fossil record provides the answer to the evolutionist Futuyma. The science of fossils (paleontology) shows that all living groups emerged on Earth at different times, all at once, and perfectly formed.

All the discoveries from excavations and studies over the last hundred years or so show that, contrary to evolutionists' expectations, living things came into existence suddenly, in perfect and flawless form, in other words that they were "created." Bacteria, protozoa, worms, molluscs, and other invertebrate sea creatures, arthropods, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals all appeared suddenly, with complex organs and systems. There are no fossils that show any so-called "transition" between them. Paleontology bears the same message as other branches of science: Living things did not evolve, but were created. As a result, while evolutionists were trying to prove their unrealistic theory, they by their own hands produced proof of creation.

Robert Carroll, an expert on vertebrate paleontology and a committed evolutionist, comes to admit that the Darwinist hope has not been satisfied with fossil discoveries:

Despite more than a hundred years of intense collecting efforts since the time of Darwin's death, the fossil record still does not yield the picture of infinitely numerous transitional links that he expected.

The Cambrian Explosion is enough to tear down the theory of evolution

The world of living things is divided by biologists into such fundamental groups as plants, animals, fungae etc. These are then subdivided into different "phyla." When designating these phyla, the fact that each one possesses completely different physical structures should always be borne in mind. Arthropoda (insects, spiders, and other creatures with jointed legs), for instance, are a phylum by themselves, and all the animals in the phylum have the same fundamental physical structure. The phylum called Chordata includes those creatures with a notochord or, most commonly, a spinal column. All the large animals such as fish, birds, reptiles, and mammals that we are familiar in daily life are in a subphylum of Chordata known as vertebrates.

There are around 35 different phyla of animals, including the Mollusca, which include soft-bodied creatures such as snails and octopuses, or the Nematoda, which include diminutive worms. The most important feature of these phyla is, as we touched on earlier, that they possess totally different physical characteristics. The categories below the phyla possess basically similar body plans, but the phyla are very different from one another.

So how did these differences come about?

Let us first consider the Darwinist hypothesis. As we know, Darwinism proposes that life developed from one single common ancestor, and took on all its varieties by a series of tiny changes. In that case, life should first have emerged in very similar and simple forms. And according to the same theory, the differentiation between, and growing complexity in, living things must have happened in parallel over time.

According to Darwinism, life must be like a tree, with a common root, subsequently splitting up into different branches. And this hypothesis is constantly emphasized in Darwinist sources, where the concept of the "tree of life" is frequently employed. According to this tree concept, one phylum must first emerge, and then the other phyla must slowly come about with minute changes over very long periods of time.

That is the theory of evolution's claim. But is this really how it happened?

Definitely not. Quite the contrary, animals have been very different and complex since the moment they first emerged. All the animal phyla known today emerged at the same time, in the middle of the geological period known as the Cambrian Age. The Cambrian Age is a geological period estimated to have lasted some 65 million years, approximately between 570 to 505 million years ago. But the period of the abrupt appearance of major animal groups fit in an even shorter phase of the Cambrian, often referred to as the "Cambrian explosion." Stephen C. Meyer, P. A. Nelson, and Paul Chien, in an article based on a detailed literature survey, dated 2001, note that the "Cambrian explosion occurred within an exceedingly narrow window of geologic time, lasting no more than 5 million years."

Before then, there is no trace in the fossil record of anything apart from single-celled creatures and a few very primitive multicellular ones. All animal phyla emerged completely formed and all at once, in the very short period of time represented by the Cambrian Explosion. (Five million years is a very short time in geological terms!)

The fossils found in Cambrian rocks belong to very different creatures, such as snails, trilobites, sponges, jellyfish, starfish, shellfish, etc. Most of the creatures in this layer have complex systems and advanced structures, such as eyes, gills, and circulatory systems, exactly the same as those in modern specimens. These structures are at one and the same time very advanced, and very different.

Richard Monastersky, a staff writer at Science News journal, states the following about the Cambrian explosion, which is a deathtrap for evolutionary theory:

A half-billion years ago, ...the remarkably complex forms of animals we see today suddenly appeared. This moment, right at the start of Earth's Cambrian Period, some 550 million years ago, marks the evolutionary explosion that filled the seas with the world's first complex creatures.

Phillip Johnson, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley who is also one of the world's foremost critics of Darwinism, describes the contradiction between this paleontological truth and Darwinism:

Darwinian theory predicts a "cone of increasing diversity," as the first living organism, or first animal species, gradually and continually diversified to create the higher levels of taxonomic order. The animal fossil record more resembles such a cone turned upside down, with the phyla present at the start and thereafter decreasing.

As Phillip Johnson has revealed, far from its being the case that phyla came about by stages, in reality they all came into being at once, and some of them even became extinct in later periods. The meaning of the emergence of very different living creatures all of a sudden and perfectly formed, is creation, as evolutionist Futuyma has also accepted. As we have seen, all the available scientific discoveries disprove the claims of the theory of evolution and reveal the truth of creation.

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fivedoughnut Posted: Feb 3 2007, 09:24 AM Report this post · Quote


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Bio(nutbox)logist,

Collapse of evolutionary theory??? ... you must be having a laugh! .... the only likely collapse is one in which your head implodes because of the lashings of vacuum present.

What caused the Cambrian Explosion?
Understanding why the Cambrian explosion happened when it did revolves around three major themes: i) extrinsic forcing events such as environmental change; ii) intrinsic mechanisms such as the acquisition of complex genomes; and iii) intrinsic mechanisms such as the natural consequences of metazoan ecology.


Go bash a bible somewhere else 'faecal material' fer brains.


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Alpha Posted: Feb 3 2007, 09:44 AM Report this post · Quote


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QUOTE (Biologist @ Feb 3 2007, 01:35 PM)
Outside these two alternatives, there is no third claim or hypothesis today regarding how life emerged.



Woah woah woah, the most insane subforum with most insane idiots on the block.

If there are 2 "possible alternatives", then why not 100 or 1000???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma


QUOTE
According to the rules of logic, if one answer to a question with two alternative possible answers is proved to be false, then the other must be true..





Look at my first point.

I can only guess at why you have such a heavy cognitive disorder, but thanks for the laugh anyway.

This subforum is always worth visiting.

/edit
Just incase you will ignore my post and a link which i supplied, because of your stupidity, possible inability to read, and an absence of critical thinking, i will post an important block of text from the link for everyone to see:


QUOTE (Wiki)
During legal battles in the creation-evolution controversy in the United States, the dichotomy between creationism and the theory of evolution has been noted as another instance of false dilemma and also termed a contrived dualism.See, for example, the 2005 opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, where Judge John E. Jones III writes "ID (intelligent design) is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed. (5:41 (Pennock)). This argument is not brought to this Court anew, and in fact, the same argument, termed “contrived dualism” in McLean, was employed by creationists in the 1980's to support “creation science.” The court in McLean noted the “fallacious pedagogy of the two model approach” and that “[i]n efforts to establish ‘evidence’ in support of creation science, the defendants relied upon the same false premise as the two model approach . . . all evidence which criticized evolutionary theory was proof in support of creation science.”



This post has been edited by Alpha on Feb 3 2007, 10:12 AM


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DiscipulusIgnorantus Posted: Feb 3 2007, 10:07 AM Report this post · Quote


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QUOTE (Biologist)
When we ask how life on Earth emerged, we find two different answers:

One is that living things emerged by evolution. [...] The second answer is "Creation." [...] Outside these two alternatives, there is no third claim or hypothesis today regarding how life emerged. According to the rules of logic, if one answer to a question with two alternative possible answers is proved to be false, then the other must be true.


Can anyone say "false dichotomy?"
Before you say, "Proffer your alternative hypothesis," let me remind you that the burden of proof lies with the claimant - in this case, that creation MUST be true if evolution isn't (which you claim is the case).

Just because you and a tiny minority of other biologists cannot believe that evolution by natural selection has taken place does not mean that is hasn't. To accept it because of the fact that the vast majority of experts accept it is certainly a more appropriate appeal to authority than one made on the basis of scripture or some other ancient text (by the way, Biologist, which creation myth would you have us believe?)

Remember, an argument from incredulity is no argument at all.

This post has been edited by DiscipulusIgnorantus on Feb 3 2007, 10:36 AM
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Physfan
ashken,
QUOTE
HOW DOES THE COLLAPSE OF THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION DEMONSTRATE THE TRUTH OF CREATION?
Let's get this straight; it is the LAW of evolution (this is to straighten out your lack of understanding of the language and semantics of science). Secondly, evolution has not "collapsed", whatever that is supposed to mean. ALL fossills are transitional, as indeed is all life today.
Physfan

Grumpy
ashken


QUOTE
According to the theory of evolution, which makes this claim, life began with the first cell


No, it does not, in fact the chemicals of life were at first very much simpler than a cell. Self replicating molecules are all that is required for evolution to begin. Cells came about much later. Google "RNA world".

Even if our current understanding of evolution is flawed(and we still have much to learn), the evolution of life on Earth is still a fact that cannot be denied by anyone with any knowledge of life's history.

Grumpy cool.gif
buttershug
QUOTE (ashken+Oct 12 2008, 04:06 AM)
The fossil record provides the answer to the evolutionist Futuyma. The science of fossils (paleontology) shows that all living groups emerged on Earth at different times, all at once, and perfectly formed.

Different times, all at once?
what does that mean?

I have seen photographs that prove the people are "born" as adults fully formed.
You seem to using the fossil record in this manner.

And I would like your take on ring species.
newguy
I recall that ashken lives in another country(Honduras?) and that he used to(maybe he still does) have to walk a long distance to get to some sort of internet cafe to post messages. I also recall that he used to download posts from the cafe to view at a later time. Anyhow, if you read what he RE-posted, it seems as if(based upon the quotes) these were originally the sentiments of someone name "Biologist". I also recall that ashken was NOT a creationist...I think that he just reposted these comments for discussion. Anyhow, hopefully he'll be along some time soon to clarify his intentions. Take care.
ashken
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 13 2008, 10:26 AM)
I recall that ashken lives in another country(Honduras?) and that he used to(maybe he still does) have to walk a long distance to get to some sort of internet cafe to post messages. I also recall that he used to download posts from the cafe to view at a later time. Anyhow, if you read what he RE-posted, it seems as if(based upon the quotes) these were originally the sentiments of someone name "Biologist". I also recall that ashken was NOT a creationist...I think that he just reposted these comments for discussion. Anyhow, hopefully he'll be along some time soon to clarify his intentions. Take care.

hi newguy/and everyone
newguy thanks for taking the time to explain .Everything is correct what you said.
i believe in evolution.Even when few people does it in this biased country.What i try to point with this post is that someone said in the past in the forum that before posting anything people should be checking old posts to see if the subject had been brought up previously.
i have to admit that i haven´t read the entire 40 or so pages of the post of the problems with evolution thread but by just taking a quick look i saw things like the carbon 14 that if i remember correctly there was a thread of 120 or more pages with DAD 1 about the same issues and questions.I hope this is not the case. In fact i had saved many pages of those post in my hard drive by burning the cd´s in a public internet place and then taking those to home with me to download to my hard drive and read with more time that is why i feel that going back to the same issues i believe is a waste of time.Again everything newguy said is correct .originally it wasn´t my post but i found it in my hard drive as proof of the old discussions.
Is very hard to tell people that you believe in evolution with all those monkey-jokes and stuff but the way richard dawkins explains it makes sense to me.I just hope to one day have a chance to visit the USA and buy one of his books(buying on the internet nah...that is not for me).So far the only thing i have is a collection of videos downloaded from the internet.
newguy i hope you´re doing all right. tks and take care.
gmilam
Unfortunately, the same issues come up again and again as new people with the same old misconceptions join the forum. Everything's been debated ad naseum until... someone new comes along and sets it all back to point zero.

It's an endless cycle. wink.gif
newguy
QUOTE (ashken+)
newguy i hope you´re doing all right. tks and take care.


ashken: I'm fine and you're more than welcome. I hope that all is well with you and your family...I recall some division in regards to how your children were going to be raised. Take care and don't pay too much attention to the negative feedback of the undiscerning.
Physfan
QUOTE
I hope that all is well with you and your family
Aaaaahhhhh, isn't that nice (turns away and vomits).
Physfan
newguy
QUOTE (Physfan+)
Aaaaahhhhh, isn't that nice (turns away and vomits).
Physfan


Physfan: Perhaps a good old-fashioned vomit might actually help you. Does it bother you that ashken and I are friendly? If your desire in posting on this forum is to show everyone your bitterness, then you're doing a fine job. Take care.

P.S. My wife has even asked me in the past(on several different occasions) how ashken is doing and if I've heard from him(my wife is from Panama). Perhaps you'd like to vomit on her behalf as well? Unlike you, apparently, I genuinely care about people...even those whom I take a more straightforward approach with here.
voodoochile
creation facilitates evolution
Physfan
newguy,
QUOTE
Does it bother you that ashken and I are friendly?
Not at all; except you seem to think that people must be 'friendly' in order to discuss or debate. One need only post their views. That is all. whether or not any 'friendliness' is exhibited is besides the point.
My concern with you is your lack of maturity in wanting something that is not necessary. Dare I say it but it accords with your 'need' to have a sky fairy when none is necessary to explain the universe.

Physfan
newguy
QUOTE (Physfan+)
Not at all; except you seem to think that people must be 'friendly' in order to discuss or debate.


Physfan: Well, things are not always as they "seem" to be. There are several people on this forum that I wouldn't want to be "friends" with, mainly because I find them to be dishonest, insincere, lacking in intergrity, etc. That does NOT, however, mean that I wish them any harm. You, on the other hand, "seem" to have a desire to wipe those whom you disagree with off of the face of the earth. IF so, THEN you're as intolerant/potentially dangerous as the worst religious nut(I know that there are plenty of them...you apparently consider me to be one of them) that you rail against. Anyhow, out of fairness, I feel that I should add the following in light of your recent disagreement with RealityCheck on another thread...

Although I initially saw nothing terribly wrong with his "advice" regarding the dropping of deliberate name alterations when addressing other posters, in retrospect, perhaps there is something wrong with it afterall, especially if any such "droppings" wouldn't be a sincere reflection of the hearts of the individuals involved.

Contrary to what you insinuated, I'm the type who prefers people to be brutally upfront/honest in their dealings with me...even if that brutal honesty includes insults. Unlike some, I haven't gone boo-hooing to the moderators/administrators when someone has insulted me. As I've plainly stated before, I prefer those who "shoot straight from the hip" and I detest hypocrites. Anyhow, where ashken and I are concerned, if you're familiar with our past dialogue, then it should be painfully obvious to you that we have many glaring differences. At the same time, however, since ashken has always shown himself to be honest with me, I could easily recognize him as my FRIEND, in spite of our differences. The same could be said of some(definitely NOT all) other posters here with whom I greatly disagree.

QUOTE (Physfan+)
One need only post their views. That is all. whether or not any 'friendliness' is exhibited is besides the point.


I agree with that to the degree that I just described.

QUOTE (Physfan+)
My concern with you is your lack of maturity in wanting something that is not necessary.


That is simply a misread on your part. I've never voiced such a "want". In fact, I've plainly stated in the past that some of the people that I respect the most are those who basically hate my guts. The respect is the direct result of them being brutally honest with me in regards to their TRUE feelings. As I've also plainly stated in the past, I despise "kiss-ups". In fact, I've mentioned on at least a couple of different occasions that one of my favorite(if not THE favorite) passages of scripture in the Bible is the following:

"Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful."(Proverbs 27:5-6)

Although you're obviously no "fan" of scripture, a proper reading of the above passage ought to give you a proper understanding of whom I genuinely consider to be my "friend" and whom I genuinely consider to be my "enemy". My TRUE friends "wound me" from time to time FOR MY OWN GOOD, whereas "kiss-ups" are only deceitful enemies of mine. ¿Comprende?

QUOTE (Physfan+)
Dare I say it but it accords with your 'need' to have a sky fairy when none is necessary to explain the universe.


By all means, say what you "believe" to be true. I have no such "need". At one point in my life, I examined the Bible's claims in regards to Jesus Christ. When I did things according to God's instructions, I got the promised results(it isn't all "a bed of roses", contrary to the "beliefs" of some). Just for the record. Take care.
Physfan
QUOTE
"Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful."(Proverbs 27:5-6)

I prefer the bits where Lot has sex with his daughters and David chops off the foreskins of 200 Phillistines. Much meatier.
Physfan
hawksecho
Why is it when the human race is to stupid to figure something out we default to a supernatural explanation? Just because something is complex, doesn't mean it's unknowable. Take off the blinders. Yesterday I met with a young student of mine who was a dyed in the wool creationist. She presented a very complex argument on how Noah could have trapped and put on the arc every manner of insect, bacteria, etc. I felt her conclusions were totally out to lunch, but her faith did not permit questions. The tragedy of any religion afraid of its own shadow.

She presented her arguments each of witch I could shoot down very quickly. But what impressed me with this lady was her steadfast use of logic. Even the religious fanatics had not ripped this from her. Based not on her conclusions but how she got there, I gave her an A-
newguy
QUOTE (hawksecho+)
She presented her arguments each of witch I could shoot down very quickly.


hawksecho: So, you're "shooting down witches"? I thought we were supposed to burn them... huh.gif Just a silly joke from someone who is very tired. Good night.
skepticgriggsy
[I] Creationists would find Talk Origins riddled with duplicitous information put out by Satan- influenced dogmatic scientists.
Their dogmatism requires them ever to keep from really thinking through what we have to offer. One can hope that our rebuttals to their stupidity will resound postively on others.
The problem with creationism reflects no research and no evidence, bases itself on a book beset with false history and science, and uses misinformation, including lies and out of context quotes. tongue.gif Rational people know it errs. laugh.gif rolleyes.gif
Yes, the God-notion cannot overcome the presumption of naturalism as it lacks evedence to do so.It also cannot overcome the ignostic-Ockham challenges.
Double depresion is so depressing1 Your happy, neurotic schizotypal. That, photojack, explains why the every six months deal. The subject matter still matters just as philosophere ever debate the ontological argument. The problem of Heaven is new.

Thanks DuzmA Gorgeous and Sandra!
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