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Laserlight
Duality/Lisa,

QUOTE
We need to find a way to improve the language of the micro for sure.


Agreed. Currently, the best definition is the EM description. Everything is
basically a form of energy. IMO it is the definition and in depth understanding
of ENERGY that needs to be refined because it is the common component of all
matter and all interactions. The timing and phase relationships of the electrical
and magnetic field interactions is common to everything in the universe.

From the infinitely small to the immensely huge, everything is some higher harmonic
combination of the interactions of energy. We are still investigating how those
individual relationships maintain their descrete qualities while simultaneously
blending into whole energy systems. Complexity is just an exponential
extension of the relationship interactions of the very simple.

Carl Sagan said it, but I'm not sure who originated the philosophy:

"We are the universe contemplating itself"......

cool.gif

LL
TRoc
Hi all,


I have to make this fast. (that is very hard for me!) unsure.gif


Duality, C2:


When I say the "normal" version of superposition doesn't work, I mean: the simple addition of vectors.

http://www.answers.com/topic/superposition-principle

QUOTE
The superposition principle is important both because it simplifies finding solutions to complicated linear problems (they can be decomposed into sums of solutions of simpler problems) and because many of the fundamental laws of physics are linear. Quantum mechanics is an especially important example of a fundamental theory in which the superposition principle is valid and of profound significance. This property has proved most useful in studying implications of quantum theory, but it is also a source of the key conundrum associated with its interpretation.


And I mentioned 392 + 494 + 588 = 392 in real world wave mixing.

So, "JUST" summing the quantities is not enough, we need some RULES for HOW this happens, and also WHY sometimes the change is UP and sometimes DOWN.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The superposition principle is important both because it simplifies finding solutions to complicated linear problems (they can be decomposed into sums of solutions of simpler problems) and because many of the fundamental laws of physics are linear. Quantum mechanics is an especially important example of a fundamental theory in which the superposition principle is valid and of profound significance. This property has proved most useful in studying implications of quantum theory, but it is also a source of the key conundrum associated with its interpretation.


And I mentioned 392 + 494 + 588 = 392 in real world wave mixing.

So, "JUST" summing the quantities is not enough, we need some RULES for HOW this happens, and also WHY sometimes the change is UP and sometimes DOWN.

For vector fields, the principle of superposition states that the net displacement at a given place and time caused by two or more waves traversing the same space is the vector sum of the displacements which would have been produced by the individual waves separately. If the resultant sum is greater than either (displacement of an) individual wave, the event occurring when the waves meet is called constructive interference, and amplitude at that point is increased. When the resultant sum is less than either displacement, then destructive interference occurs, and overall amplitude decreases. If the superposition of waves brings the amplitude to zero, complete destructive interference has occurred.


NOW we're talking! Again, HOW MANY DIFFERENT WAYS DOES PHYSICS DESCRIBE THIS BASIC PHENOMENA?

This is what I've been trying to say all along. I PURPOSEFULLY did not want to use QM to explain this, and "alluded" to it not being predicted by QM. Nobody was paying attention, or whatever. The FACT is that both Schrodinger wave equations, and wave functions are PREDICTED to INTERFERE this way.

It is THE LACK of understanding of Resonance principles that lead to explaining things in "weird" ways. If I tried to use those QM explanations, I am led down the wrong path.

QUOTE
For time-varying signals, the principle of superposition states that the total response at a given place and time caused by two or more signals propagating in the same space is the sum of the separate responses which would have been produced by the individual signals.



So, LL's question:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
For time-varying signals, the principle of superposition states that the total response at a given place and time caused by two or more signals propagating in the same space is the sum of the separate responses which would have been produced by the individual signals.



So, LL's question: Is it fair to say that the actual "mixing" of the signals doesn't take place until the individual frequencies converge or overlap at the point of "detection"?
can be answered "yes, it is fair". But I CAN NOT say (or us) that is IS right. We can't see there.. This is why everybody had so many problems even TALKING about "interference".

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter too much. At least not to "get started". The pattern, that the electrons generate, INTERACTS. It could be "on the way", it could be "when it gets there". First, we should agree on what that pattern is, and why it happens.

What happens inside the "detector/counter" is what you said
QUOTE
the "detector" which is physically unable to discriminate the individual frequencies. Because it is being saturated with closely phased signals, it combines the "in phase" components of the total energy being applied. We sense the total energy applied, because we cannot separate the signals unless they are much out of phase coherency/alignment.



As Duality mentioned, we have the mass to contend with. We can (thanks to AE) describe this "mass" as energy, in terms of FREQUENCY, and its' symmetric dual the COMPTON wavelength.

C2's (?) link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor_(electronics)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
the "detector" which is physically unable to discriminate the individual frequencies. Because it is being saturated with closely phased signals, it combines the "in phase" components of the total energy being applied. We sense the total energy applied, because we cannot separate the signals unless they are much out of phase coherency/alignment.



As Duality mentioned, we have the mass to contend with. We can (thanks to AE) describe this "mass" as energy, in terms of FREQUENCY, and its' symmetric dual the COMPTON wavelength.

C2's (?) link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor_(electronics)

Within Electrical Engineering, the phase angle is commonly specified in degrees rather than radians and the magnitude will often be the rms value rather than a peak value of the sinusoid.


Just an example, that there are MANY ways to skin the cat.

QUOTE
The overarching conceptual motive behind phasor calculus is that it is generally far more convenient to manipulate complex numbers than to manipulate literal trigonometric functions. Noting that a trigonometric function can be represented as the real component of a complex quantity, it is efficacious to perform the required mathematical operations upon the complex quantity and, at the very end, take its real component to produce the desired answer. This is quite similar to the concept underlying complex potential in such fields (no pun intended) as electromagnetic theory, where—instead of manipulating a real quantity, u—it is often more convenient to derive its harmonic conjugate, v, and then operate upon the complex quantity u + jv, again recovering the real component of the complex "result" as the last stage of computation to generate the true result.


Even the "order" that these DIFFERENT ways are used makes a difference. Short cuts are "OK". biggrin.gif


So, is there anything wrong with THREE for the price of ONE?

Z * R^800 * Z = 1.234699775927720709976077627072e+20
Z / R^463 / Z = 2.4280595501659888483679094518892e-12

The product of these 2 values = 299,792,458.252..


So, electron frequency, Compton wavelength, and the constant wave velocity from "first principles", and One Constant, Z and One Scaled Measuring Device R . Not a bad start?

cool.gif


regards,

T.Roc



Note: this last part has NOTHING directly to do with chords, or colors. BUT, once you understand the BASIC principles of RESONANCE, and the RATIOS that control it, you can begin to understand the "beauty" of " R " the 12th root of 2. (2^(1/12) Look at the RECURSIVE integer ratios that it produces!
yquantum
One time appearance, ladies & gentlemen for awhile I think, et al,


Laserlight, you mentioned this!
QUOTE
Currently, the best definition is the EM description. Everything is
basically a form of energy.


I do not have the time in which to be involved, this is with much regret but much is on the disk/plate. sad.gif

There is really 2 fundamental forces in nature as far as we know now, check if you like, many do not seem to know so you are not alone. that remain outside the unification of the electromagnetic EM and weak fields.

It is G and SNF, the force responsible for the binding the particles which we call quarks together for form the protons and neutrons which you well know is the nucleus.

Hope this helps you on your journey guys, I am very impressed from my 'Frame of humble Reference'.

ciao_
yquantum

Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, "THEY"2, I hope it is the best one yet. Proud of you! biggrin.gif rolleyes.gif
Aerohead
Like THEY can't quit looking, I can't stop thinking about Good Elf's presentation and the possiblity of multi-dimensional holographic information explaining DS. Is the universe like the playback of a movie ? Is geometric information encoded in the the higher D's to satisfy continuity?

Sorry to interject here. I just love this thread, too.

Regards / Jim
Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, Yquantum, Duality, Jal, Confused2, TRoc et al,

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
GE, did you overlook the questions that I posed to you re your drawing, or are you just ignoring me?
All theoretical proposals should be open for scrutiny and skepticism. If an acceptable answer can be provided for potential conflicts to theoretical concepts, then other explanations/options can be justified.

Still keeping an open mind....

LL
I did miss you on the "Hi line" didn't I?... that was unintentional, I have a nasty habit of copying that line forward. The oversight cannot be corrected after 60 min, as you know. Being a "mud map" hand drawing of "hyper-dimensional objects" it was never meant to be the answer to all things for all people. It is not the first time this has appeared on this site though it may have been before "your time". Actually the answer above was meant to answer a lot of queries not merely yours. Your specific query was about isospin, in actual fact that last point was answered in this post...
Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later: Good Elf
It was almost all about your question. I am sorry about the 'Hi line". I go away for one day and at least a couple of pages of questions "pour" down onto this topic. It is very hard to keep up.

Here is the rest of your question .... I suppose you realize this is a complex issue since in all current theories charge is "primary"....
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Regarding the theoretical sketch of your proposed extra-dimensional field relationship between the electron and the positron.

Since both particles have a spin of 1/2, do they spin in opposite directions with an inverse torque component similar to what might be observed in motor's rotor and stator?

If the electron and positron establish an effective dipole charge relationship won't
the corresponding "virtual" electrical charge fields exist directly between them?

If this + - charge relationship exists between point charges it seems that the magnetic field should follow the right hand rule and form at a 90 degree phase offset encircling the electrical charge lines that exists between the "poles" of the point charges. Wouldn't this generate a thrust component to the electron and positron?
The electron positron do not establish a dipole charge it is the standing waves of EM that establish a dipole through the quantum postulate of
2πR = nλ... the condition for standing waves in a toroidally connected spatial cavity as we all know. Causally trapped "bright matter solitons". It does not matter what cavity.. a simple waveguide or the Universe itself. "N" is the so called principal quantum number but it has a direct interpretation.

Some issues about isospin are answered. Other questions about spin are answered by the "Holographic Principle" when you consider these theories as lower dimensional entities on the surface of a brane. Since an electron and positron will completely unravel each other apart and release the internal photons then it seems logical to say that the spins are opposite when you take into account CPT. The field lines "run" between nearby charges in higher dimensions as they do here in our three dimensions. The nearest charge in hyperspace will terminate the field lines. The main difference will be that they are the opposite "ends" of the field lines. do not confuse charge with the spin though... they are only part of the problem. The wrapping that creates charges are in separate dimensional spaces ... obviously so energetically they are unable to communicate with each other to make sense with that right hand rule which only works in three dimensions. Incidentally "artificial sources" of EM fields have the same static fields within, created by the same mechanisms but not in the higher dimensions... such as in the near field of radio transmitters (as those who work in the field will tell you... there are many horror stories related to these evanescent fields inside high power radiation fields of transmitters). No surprise huh! Static charges in regions where there are only dynamic fields should have rung some alarm bells in theoretically elevated circles. Radio Transmitters are designed only to launch photons and not to create higher dimensional cavities. Remember instabilities in that 'dead zone' can even kill. What I can say is people wandering around inside that "shell" will not "disappear" since they are not "prime examples" of quantum states and their mass spoil some symmetry conditions required for their "resonance"... he he he! Still... stories in the UFO lore abound about the USS Eldridge during WWII.

Cheers
Confused2
Aerohead, GE, y , D/l, jal, TRoc et al,

I have a problem where I see the tape .. if you rewind it and and play it forwards (or backwards) it all makes sense .. you always have the bits either side of now. But NOW (wherever you are) .. how does the stuff get in front of NOW to satisfy all the equations?

Best wishes,

C2.

y
Confused2
GE,LL,
Do 'hop over' my post .. no hurry.
Best wishes, C2.
"THEY"
Troc - trying to wrap my head around the functioning of this.... if 392 + 494 + 588 = 392 then what does 294 + 392 + 494 equal? Or do I try too hard?

I have so many bells going off in my head, and at the same time so many sirens and red flags....... (danger danger danger)



welcome aboard Aerohead! Good drugs going on in here eh?
Laserlight
Hi GE and All,

I wasn't "slighted" by your salutation. I fit into"All" very well, and I did
detect the last paragraph of your link was indirectly directed to one of
my questions, but that was just the appetizer. I thought perhaps the
waiter had forgotten to bring the main course..... biggrin.gif

GE, for some reason, and it may just be my inability to interpret what you just
said, your answer seemed deliberately ambiguous. I know we are
discussing theoretical concepts here, which may be difficult to explain or
communicate clearly, but I am left scratching my head trying to interpret
just what you said. I will read it again, for the 3rd time, to try to extract your
meaning.

I am still grappling with the "reality" of the concept of extra-dimensionality of the
E and M fields. We can't see air, but that doesn't mean it exists in some etherial
plane, since we live in it. Magnetic fields are invisible to our senses, but
their "real" existance, or the energy that they represent in our space-time, can be
observed or made visible by iron filings that are suitably "restrained" to prevent
their clumping together at poles. Their electrical field components are parallel
to the + - poles. Like a hologram, small pieces of a magnet maintain the same
field and polarity relationships regardless of their size.

I think that we can regressively correlate this same relationship all the way down
to the atomic level.

Regarding your explanation of a dipole as it relates to the positron and the
electron, a single point charge is not a dipole. The definition of a dipole states
that there are 2 equal but opposite charges or magnetic poles separated by a
distance. Perhaps it is another example of semantic interpetation, but my
understanding is that 2 opposite charges form a dipole arrangement, and in
the case of an atom that relationship exists between the nucleus and
each electron but is a dynamic situation. A dipole can be both a receiving and a
transmission antenna. I believe this is the underlying principle behind an
atoms capability to both transmit and receive energy of a specific spectral
wavelength. Each separate atomic energy shell is sensitive to a spectral energy
wavelength (frequency) according to the dipole charge gap distance.

Comments, discussion, disagreement, clarification, alternative opinions welcome.
wink.gif

LL
Laserlight
THEY,

QUOTE
if 392 + 494 + 588 = 392 then what does 294 + 392 + 494 equal? Or do I try too hard?


Are you adding the sum of the differences of all terms??

392 -294 = 98

494 - 392 = 102

494 - 294 = 200

so.... 98+102+200 = 400

I think my math is right. smile.gif

LL
Duality
Confused2,

What post are you referring to.

Duality/Lisa huh.gif

"THEY" & "2", when time allows he will check and respond. He gives you both his, Very best Wishes, & Happy Holidays.
Aerohead
Hi Duality and THEY...

Duality : THEY is referring to his reply to my post, I think. I interjected basically a non sequitur and THEY responded to it. The whole thing was "out of line" with the current discussion. My apologies.

THEY : Good drugs ? As an aeronautical engineer - and an "old guy," I think this thread literally rocks. So....yeah ! It's got me thinking a whole new way about "things."

To everyone reading this thread (new (like me), veterans, unregistered) : READ ALL THE LINKS.

Thanks to all the thread participants for a most delightful, ongoing experience.

Really !


Confused2
D/L

QUOTE

What post are you referring to?


Um. I'm not sure which post [mine,other^] I might have been referring to without first knowing which post [mine] you are referring to.

My last post was an invitation to GE et al to hop over my response to Aerohead as this was the introduction of a new and possibly spookier theme than that which has gone before. I hope that's the one!

Best wishes,

C2.

Aerohead .. I see you've posted again! .. I was hoping this would come up (past,present,future) .. don't lose it .. patience?
Aerohead
Confused2 & THEY: Yes, please substitue "Confused2" for "THEY" in the first part of my last. I'm confused, too. blink.gif
Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, Yquantum, Duality, Jal, Confused2, TRoc et al,

QUOTE
GE, for some reason, and it may just be my inability to interpret what you just said, your answer seemed deliberately ambiguous.
I knew there was something missing. Believe me I am not trying to be ambiguous (that just makes things so much harder for me) but these are not subjects you are going to easily latch on to without some slight background. Most people have not dealt with any of these questions and issues. It is very hard for me to answer open ended questions since it requires a level of mutual understanding that we are on the same "channel" at the same time. The "mud map" refers to how dimensional 'domains" might interlink. The picture is 'symbolic' of electric fields not dimensional connectivity or spin. as I have said different groups of three dimensions do not exchange energetic processes with each other except if something passes that boundary "resonantly" while passing into the "quantum state". This is why the quantum states are "stationary"... since they exist in a dimensionally distinct "region" it cannot exchange energy with our "region". The regions are separated because of the speed of light....

The photon undergoes a rotation on the dimensional boundary (where the field stresses are) of 90 degrees. This is often referred to as "Lorentz Contraction" but is simply a function of γ = 1/√1 - V²/C²)
... where the angle of rotation is arctan(V/C). Since light is always at the speed of light it is always on the surface of the light cone.

IMHO the way in which "charge" comes into existence is through stresses in the brane (in this case on the light cone wall of our Universe). Consider an electromagnetic wave in free space. There are no electric charges being carried by photons are there? Then how do you suppose that the electromagnetic field of the photons the electric wave executes positive and negative cycles as the electric field intensity goes from positive field strength to zero field strength to negative field strength then back to zero field and then back to positive field strengths. In the old days this was called electrical "tension", there are no charges there since all "permanent charge" is carried by or resides in sub-atomic particles such as electrons or quarks (protons) etc. Just understand and be clear in your own mind that there are no sources for charge in the propagating EM wave.

At the same time the magnetic intensity does the same thing.... executes positive and negative cycles as the electric field intensity goes from positive field strength to zero field strength to... etc. etc. In order to generate actual permanent electric and magnetic "charges" what is proposed is the propagating electromagnetic wave is trapped inside a cavity with just the right twist such that all negative "excursions" of the electric field are all "wrapped" topologically on the "outside" and all the positive "excursions" are wrapped to the "inside" of the electron (at its apparent "core"). This is seen here in this image from Williamson et al and as reported in other sources as well as the so called Hubius Helix.
User posted image
User posted image
Just click on image to enlarge. See previous reference to this here...
Hubius Helix of Qiu-Hong Hu and others
The twist in the wave is just right, topologically, to present all negative electric field values on the outside of the newly formed outer cavity wall of an electron (a kind of hyper dimensional ball) and all positive field values on the inside cavity wall of the electron toward its presumed center. This is shown in the Williamson and Van der Mark's Paper on the Topological Electron...
Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? J.G. Williamson and M.B. van der Mark
What we do not see is at or near the so called "center" of the electron is on the other side of a dimensional space like our own. Along a symmetric "inner edge" of the electron is the other 1/2 of the standing wave pattern where the positive excursions of the field occur (this is an inside-out positron that matches the outside-in electron). The frequency of all these internal electron waves is occurring at matter wave frequencies which are frequencies equivalent to the creation energy of the equivalent photons....
E = MC² which equals hf
Does this all make sense to you now? If not reduce the generality of your question and be a little specific, maybe that will help me understand what it is you are not getting.

Cheers
Laserlight
Good Elf,

Thanks for detailing your explanation. It does offer a theoretical option for why
photons appear not to have physical mass but can propagate via self-regenerating
EM fields without the benefit of physical structure. IMO, there are still some
potential "inconsistencies" as to how different frequency EM fields of differing
wavelength and energy levels are developed and propagated interdimensionally
along the same brane.....hmmmm??? unsure.gif

As for the relationship of electron structure to positron structure and charge
relationships....well.......I relate those to large scale charge interactions and
scale those effects to the atomic level. As negative charge moves toward
a positive ground potential a postive charge dislocation moves in the reverse
direction. They are constantly trying to balance each other at the atomic
level to reach energy charge stability or a charge neutral steady state.

Many fundamental particles moving thru a bubble or wire chamber
detectors in a collider move in arcs due to magnetic influences of the high flux
density magnetic fields which indicates that most fundamental particles have
an inherent charge component. How this might relate to dimensional relationships
is uncertain. rolleyes.gif

LL
Good Elf
Hi Laserlight,

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
As negative charge moves toward a positive ground potential a positive charge dislocation moves in the reverse direction.
Ummm... where are the "charge dislocations" in a vacuum? The vacuum is not "condensed matter" unless you are thinking along Zephir's lines.

You seem to not quite get the idea. Electric fields of particles are "static" and magnetic fields are also "static" but the reality is the electric and magnetic fields must be "orthogonal". Thus we see sub-atomic charges as "sources" and magnetic fields as "sourceless". In reality they are both "sourceless" when you consider the orthogonal directions one group at a time when the role of the electric and magnetic fields are reversed. Remember the abortive search for magnetic monopoles. I can prove conclusively that the near field effects of EM (alternating) fields do result in "permanent static charges" in the near field.
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
IMO, there are still some potential "inconsistencies" as to how different frequency EM fields of differing wavelength and energy levels are developed and propagated inter-dimensionally along the same brane.....hmmmm???
Once again being very vague does not help me anymore than it will you. Photons of different frequency have naturally different wavelengths and penetrate barriers differently. We have already discussed how this effect leads to de Broglie Matter Waves "seeping out" of the evanescent zone. The "barrier" works both ways you realize to "resonance effects". As to "energy levels" Einstein proved that is relative to the frame in which it is measured. The brane is no sheet of rubber you know it is the light cone wall. The caution Einstein made regarding the Relativistic Energy and Mass is no idle point. Only the rest mass should be referred to in "comparisons" since energy has no "zero level" relativistically speaking.

As to the internal effects of charge on the internal propagating EM wave... naturally (as it does here in our Universe) photons are just about unaffected by charge. The charge is only seen externally to the particles... as is mass.

No matter, it is not important at this stage.
How standing waves work....
user posted image + user posted image = user posted image

Cheers
TRoc
THEY,


QUOTE

if 392 + 494 + 588 = 392 then what does 294 + 392 + 494 equal? Or do I try too hard?


LL was right, 400Hz

So, that is less that a G#.415, more than a G.392 . G minor?

You started with the tonic (fundamental) of D.294 when you changed it down an octave (from D.588) Inversion? Bah!, you know the rest.

For the sake of brevity, and the starting point of Resonance, stay with the Major (& #'s) chords. Zero beats . That's the "take home" part, for now.


What I am saying is that the "measured" frequency of a major (most resonant) chord, sums from the beats of the 3 frequencies. It is the same frequency as the fundamental note. The other 2 waves "disappear" in effect; they are "resonantly superimposed" and will be heard (measured) at the same time. This mathematical method of summing beat frequencies has not been used to describe this "consonance". (music uses many terms for the same things too!) There is a slight rise in amplitude. With sound wave velocities, we CAN perceive the difference between a note and a chord of the same frequency. With light, we can not. (IE red superimposed with green LOOKS the same as pure (monochromatic) yellow)


Beats are real: any beat within the range of hearing will be heard AS IF it were from a "string" as well. If you measure the beat, its' frequency is the same oscillation as is produced by a "real" oscillator.

It seems that EM waves are no different, in that sense. Because of the "self-perpetuating" nature of the coupled E and B fields, if the wave gets split into 2, there is going to be an evanescent zone if they uncouple momentarily. Their first attempt is to "reconnect"; that fails only if you have collapse of the wave-function/measurement. If the distance is greater, another "mate" will be produced, according to Maxwell's rules. What ever mate the first one requires, the other 1/2 will require the opposite.



ciao,

T.Roc



fivedoughnut
Good Elf etc,

Bit off topic (as per usual) biggrin.gif ..... Just had a notion; in the evanescent zone of a photon (below around 0.25 wavelengths), superluminal propagation is thought to occur ... is this right?; imagine a photon of 1 x 10^-4Hz ... the 'e' zone' would be of around 0.75 terametres. Could this ever be used as a superluminal carrier wave of sorts? blink.gif

5-D.
Good Elf
Hi Fivedoughnut,

QUOTE (Fivedoughnut+)
Bit off topic (as per usual) ..... Just had a notion; in the evanescent zone of a photon (below around 0.25 wavelengths), superluminal propagation is thought to occur ... is this right?; imagine a photon of 1 x 10^-4Hz ... the 'e' zone' would be of around 0.75 terametres. Could this ever be used as a superluminal carrier wave of sorts?

5-D.
Nice to hear from you again Fivedoughnut. When I used to go to University they used to teach such things about the superluminal nature of light in the nearfield. Whatever relativistic corner it is turning around due to the visual three dimensional effect of length contraction. The angle θ = arcsin (V/C). It does not matter what observer is looking at such an object the rotation is always "away" from all observers. Naturally at the speed of light a photon is "rotated" through an ange of 90 degrees if viewed in the transverse direction. Of course this is not possible for light but it is theoretically possible to do the same for an object. The real problem with any "transportation system" using "optics" is firstly the mass of the object to transmit. This can be seen by looking at the "low end" of relativity... de Broglie Matter Waves.
User posted image
However since we can be assured that gravity is simply a conformal mapping problem in higher dimensions, then it may be possible to pack things appropriately and send them on their way. An electron is then simply a photon that has gone completely "round the twist" biggrin.gif and is now confined by the light cone wall. In reciprocal space the bigger things are the smaller they will be and visa versa. Mass is the big spoiler for quantum travel. Consider this packet used in Boyds experiments...
Light propagating backwards... but also look at the light propagating forwards
It has "jumped" the intervening space. As the packet enters from the left the energy of the wave is transferred to the outgoing pulse via a "caustic". The incoming packet's energy is transferred to the outgoing wave that has "jumped space". The internal wave rushes to cancel the incoming packet and the outgoing wave is gathering the energy cumulatively over the time. This could happen to us as well if we could cancel our mass then we could simply walk towards a metamaterial "wall" and be transferred to the far side "optically". In Boyd's case this is not using metamaterials but a non-linear refraction event. However Infra-red metamaterials are already available which can do the same trick more uniformly.
http://www.physorg.com/news72714237.html
It would be interesting to see if chromatic abberation could be compensated for using some special coating.

we also know that experiments at NIST indicate that Optical Images using true matter waves result in physics and even chemistry of the Phantoms. Here is a famous image ...
http://physicsweb.org/objects/world/15/11/9/mirage.pdf
It is the subsequent experiments that are the interesting ones. The "image" can be made to be up to 60% as "strong" as the source image with the right sort of quantum corral. This is good enough to do real physics on them. If such a puny "picket fence" can produce "convincing" doppelgangers what about perfect resonant cavities?
QUOTE
Quantum Mirages: The Coherent Projection of Electronic Structure
H. C. Manoharan, C. P. Lutz, D. M. Eigler (IBM Research Division, Almaden Research Center, 650 Harry Rd., San Jose, CA 95120)

While the correlated electron physics underlying the varied manifestations of magnetism have long been studied via macroscopic behavior, only recently have novel local probes opened the door to a new class of studies on the nanometer length scale. On top of these technological advances, the advent of controlled atomic and molecular manipulation has provided us with a unique opportunity not only to detect magnetism at atomic length scales, but to manipulate it as well. In this talk we present new results that exploit these techniques using low-temperature scanning tunneling microscopy. Using the detection of the Kondo resonance localized around an isolated magnetic moment on a surface, we demonstrate that the electronic structure around an atom may be sampled and projected to a distant location by means of a surrounding 2D electron gas confined in an engineered nanostructure. The ``quantum mirage'' cast by a single magnetic atom can be refocused with coherent phase at a distinct point where it is detected as a phantom atom around which the electronic structure mimics that at the real atom.^1

^1H. C. Manoharan et al., to appear in Nature (1999).

And the force of gravity seems to be associated "possibly" with spin...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Quantum Mirages: The Coherent Projection of Electronic Structure
H. C. Manoharan, C. P. Lutz, D. M. Eigler (IBM Research Division, Almaden Research Center, 650 Harry Rd., San Jose, CA 95120)

While the correlated electron physics underlying the varied manifestations of magnetism have long been studied via macroscopic behavior, only recently have novel local probes opened the door to a new class of studies on the nanometer length scale. On top of these technological advances, the advent of controlled atomic and molecular manipulation has provided us with a unique opportunity not only to detect magnetism at atomic length scales, but to manipulate it as well. In this talk we present new results that exploit these techniques using low-temperature scanning tunneling microscopy. Using the detection of the Kondo resonance localized around an isolated magnetic moment on a surface, we demonstrate that the electronic structure around an atom may be sampled and projected to a distant location by means of a surrounding 2D electron gas confined in an engineered nanostructure. The ``quantum mirage'' cast by a single magnetic atom can be refocused with coherent phase at a distinct point where it is detected as a phantom atom around which the electronic structure mimics that at the real atom.^1

^1H. C. Manoharan et al., to appear in Nature (1999).

And the force of gravity seems to be associated "possibly" with spin...
Article Preview
Gravity's secret

    * 11 November 2006
    * Stuart Clark
    * Magazine issue 2577

It's a twist that not even Einstein expected. Large masses may exert a swirling influence when they rotate

GRAVITY has a secret side. As well as the brute force that holds us to the ground, large masses should also exert a subtle swirling influence when they rotate, a force called gravitomagnetism. It's so faint that a NASA spacecraft called Gravity Probe B has been orbiting the Earth for over two years to accrue enough evidence to have a chance of confirming this force.

Yet in a lab in Austria, Martin Tajmar and his team have already succeeded in detecting a faint signal that seems to be due to this elusive component of gravity. A reason for celebration? Not quite. Puzzlingly, the force they seem to have generated is vastly more powerful than anyone else expected.

Despite its name, gravitomagnetism has nothing to do with magnetic fields as we think of them. According to Einstein's general theory of relativity, a rotating mass such as a planet should twist the ...

Well there you are "optical teleportation"... who really knows? A Lense-Thirring effect billions of times larger than anticipated.

Cheers
"THEY"
Ok, thank you LL & Troc, I get it now. I obviously missed a post that described what you were doing with the three numbers! I tried too hard. laugh.gif

So are there any OTHER musical chords or "spreads" that it works with? Or mixes, or creates beats, or what ever... like a major 5th or octave + 5th?

Just scratching my head as to why it works with a major chord........... have I missed any other important parts like I did with adding the sums of the frequencies??? rolleyes.gif
Laserlight
Good Elf,

If you are going to quote me I think it is only fair to put it in the proper context of
the topic being discussed.

QUOTE
As for the relationship of electron structure to positron structure and charge
relationships....well.......I relate those to large scale charge interactions and
scale those effects to the atomic level. As negative charge moves toward
a positive ground potential a postive charge dislocation moves in the reverse
direction. They are constantly trying to balance each other at the atomic
level to reach energy charge stability or a charge neutral steady state.


I am talking about flow in an atomic matrix where electron/hole flow follows the
ionic charge states of the atoms of the matrix. In order for an electron to
move atom to atom in a matrix it must move to a positively charged ion where
there is a vacancy (hole). Conversely, the "hole" vacancy moves opposite to the
electron flow.

GE said:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As for the relationship of electron structure to positron structure and charge
relationships....well.......I relate those to large scale charge interactions and
scale those effects to the atomic level. As negative charge moves toward
a positive ground potential a postive charge dislocation moves in the reverse
direction. They are constantly trying to balance each other at the atomic
level to reach energy charge stability or a charge neutral steady state.


I am talking about flow in an atomic matrix where electron/hole flow follows the
ionic charge states of the atoms of the matrix. In order for an electron to
move atom to atom in a matrix it must move to a positively charged ion where
there is a vacancy (hole). Conversely, the "hole" vacancy moves opposite to the
electron flow.

GE said:
Electric fields of particles are "static" and magnetic fields are also "static" but the reality is the electric and magnetic fields must be "orthogonal".


I have no problem with that comment...here is what I said.

QUOTE
Many fundamental particles moving thru a bubble or wire chamber
detectors in a collider move in arcs due to magnetic influences of the high flux
density magnetic fields which indicates that most fundamental particles have
an inherent charge component
.


I fail to see any inconsistency with your comment. Magnetic fields only exist
when there are + - charge polarity alignments.....their associated EM fields are
always othogonal. The magnetic fields in my comment were due to the field
coils of the bubble chamber and how they affected the inherent charges of the
particles passing thru them, causing a deviation of their flight path. The point
being that fundmental particle charge is elementary.
------
Having worked on radar equipment, I am quite familiar with the concept of
standing waves, but I don't see their correlation to the dynamic environment
of the movement of electrons in the atomic structure. Can your explain what
point you were trying to make, somehow that eluded me?


Tia,
LL
TRoc
THEY,


QUOTE
Just scratching my head as to why it works with a major chord


The better question is WHY & HOW did the "major chord" come into existence? Just by trial & error, and by what people judged as "pleasing".


All other chords are "less that perfect" resonances, and the "final frequency" (beat-sum) will tell where, in an octave (and yes, you can "stretch up or down" an octave) the "quality" falls. This is why they have the abstract names for each "step" (interval) of the octave. The 7th, 9th, dim, etc. These are RELATIVE to the FUNDAMENTAL frequency.

Because music was developed this way, first from harmonic ratios, and then explained with labels, and "systems" (which changed as tastes and instruments changed) we end up with an "ad hoc" explanation. The labels eliminated the use of the values (frequencies), so that "math" was not in the mind. Because (apparently) NO ONE ever charted the "system" in actual values (numbers), the SIMPLE mathematical explanation eluded us. This is probably the longest standing physical "mystery" in our history! More so by the fact that we didn't even know it was "missing".


How similar is the DSE to a musical instrument, played by a burst of light instead of air, or the plucking of a string?


ciao,

T.Roc

"THEY"
QUOTE (TRoc+Dec 8 2006, 11:30 AM)
How similar is the DSE to a musical instrument, played by a burst of light instead of air, or the plucking of a string?

I was reading along taking it in and trying to make it fit for me, then came across that question ........ my brain promptly exploded. What a mess!

I can try to do a gedanken on that, but I guess I need to be educated first. My brain says that I will hear the same thing, but lets figure it out. What is it you want me to "do" in my DSE box? Bear with me and help me out here... and I will help you if I can.

Also, your frequencies work with whole numbers, but I can't get it to work with tuning freq. numbers that I found on the internet......... If I tune my piano to your frequencies, will it be pleasing to the ear? Or will I take my hatchet to it and turn my gorgeous piano into firewood? ph34r.gif The only thing I can figure so far is the ratio of a fifth (G to D) of 3:2 is just a mathematical coinkydink. But you say it works with colors and the periodical table too? (my brain wants to say I heard you say that......)

Ps, they 2 wants to work on this over the weekend too. rolleyes.gif
Duality
"THEY" & "TWO", all,

I was going to stay off the post until some issues were cleared up, but I made a promise and I will keep it. wink.gif

Hope this will helps and will give you some information you both can work with.

Have fun! biggrin.gif

http://members.cox.net/mathmistakes/music.htm

Duality/Lisa
TRoc
Hi all,


THEY,


Even if you had read everything perfectly in this thread, you probably couldn't get the entire idea I am saying. Believe it or not, this is (stuff in this thread) all in the interest of explaining the DSE.

I feel the frequency of the cavity needs to be included in the analysis.


You CAN use the tuning you find on the internet. You have to start at A.440 and work your way up or down.


The turning point here is the irrational number produced by dividing 2 (the natural octave, resonant ratio) by 12 equal parts. The INVERSE of this integer division is AN INCREASING RATE (frequency=cycles per second).

Start with 1, multiply (recursively) by 2^(1/12), until you reach 2. Takes this set of irrationals, and convert to fractions. Now you see the SET of ratios that can fully describe the system. (not just Pythagorean ratios)


This is QUANTUM music. Equal parts (discreet). Jumps to specific energies (resonance). The INVERSE law: integers on one side produce (mostly) irrationals on the other side. "Spin" is inherent to this as well. You need to see the matrix for this to be "instinctive". The visible and audible spectra's, the elements, the particles, BY MEASURING with a system designed to DETECT resonances, and starting from >1. (zero point)



regards,

T.Roc

Laserlight
Good Elf, TRoc, and Everyone,

Regarding the metamaterial develoment article and simulations shown here:

http://www.external.ameslab.gov/final/News/Lightmovies.htm

Left hand diffraction? Is it really diffraction or atomic scale mirroring where
the image and polarity of the applied pulse is reversed?

In movie #2, it shows how an applied pulse is delayed and attenuated
while passing thru a metamaterial and suffering "dispersion" energy
loss of the amplitude of the pulse. This is a signal "delay line" technique used
in an "old technology" analog radar system. The delay line in that application
was a "tuned" crystal component that effectively slowed a sample of each radar
frequency pulse so it could be used to provide a time coincident "delay" reference
between transmitted and received pulses which was later compared in the
electronics circuitry. There is a propagation delay latency, and energy attenuation,
thru refractive materials as energy waves react with the atomic structure.

A good reference:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/framed.ht...frn/u14l2b.html

LL
Duality
Hi guys,

Troc, your not the first to think of this so I hope it reinforces your direction.

QUOTE
I feel the frequency of the cavity needs to be included in the analysis.


http://crystal.chem.utk.edu/Outreach/atomi...tom/qmatom.html


"THEY",
http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/music/temperament/

Duality/Lisa
"THEY"
Ok I am about to just throw music theory out the window and use "quantum music theory" math instead. tongue.gif

Bear with me here and I will prove myself where I am coming from, then I (personally) will hopefully be able to move forward into your theory with the "modeling" I have learned from music theory and "approximate" it into your theory and see where it gets me. Confused? so am I.............. ph34r.gif laugh.gif

Ok... getting down to number crunching which is what I do best.. wink.gif
(D)588 - (B)494 = 94
(B)494 - (G)392 = 102
(D)588 - (G)392 = 196
196 + 102 + 94 = 392 = G

Now using the piano tuning chart in the link Lisa provided
(D)587.329535834815 - (B)493.883301256124 = 93.446234578
(B)493.883301256124 - (G)391.995435981749 = 101.887865275
(D)587.329535834815 - (G)391.995435981749 = 195.334099853
and the sums (verified on adding machine, my #s may be wrong on this page...)

equals 390.668199706 which is not equal to (G)391.995435981749 so if you played that pitch I would shiver and tell you to "tune up"...

My conclusion here is that you can model it APPROXIMATELY with a Western Major chord but not EXACTLY. This should make Good Elf happy, I remember him uttering a distasteful note (pun) a while back that the universe wouldn't pick western tones over others.

So now where do I go with this since all my red flags just went away? We have a QUANTUM MUSIC theory that approximates a chord that seems to have beat and frequencies and harmonics and all the fun stuff?
Duality
THEY, all,

Now you see the Pythagoras' theorem explanation can be used to describe waves/particles in classical terms. Check into it, and to think it was back, WHEN?

QUOTE
Standing waves do not display a continuous energy spectrum but rather have discrete energy levels; for a vibrating string, we are familiar with the 1st harmonic, 2nd harmonic, 3rd harmonic etc. For a two-dimensional or three dimensional wave, these harmonics are additive if the motion in each of the directions of motion, i.e. the motions along each coordinate, is uncoupled from the motions that involve the other coordinates. We therefore expect to have independent motions that depend only on each of the coordinates and, as the electron is a standing wave, we expect discrete levels for each of these independent parts of the overall wave motion of the electron.


They might have been a tight and close society, for we only have very little information on there discipline, but it will humble a person when you see the power of the mind when focused.

Duality/Lisa
Confused2
All? (anyone?)

[ quote=Duality/Pythagoras]
... electrons ... i.e. the motions along each coordinate, is uncoupled from the motions that involve the other coordinates. We therefore expect to have independent motions that depend only on each of the coordinates and, ... [ /quote]

electrons... and some kind of local coordinate system?

Might photons need a slightly more general coordinate system?

Oh dear!

Best wishes,

-C2.
"THEY"
Need a mental break from work so here I am cool.gif

in retrospect, the frequencies ARE close enough that the math DOES work from a music point of view. Just don't try to tune my piano to your hz or i will slap your hand! wink.gif My question, why is a perfectly tuned piano NOT the exact same frequencies as your chart?

Now to the musical DSE. If you throw a computer in the room, will it hear harmonics? (pattern). If you throw ME in the room, will I hear a single tone? (observer collapsing the waveform)

Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, "THEY" and "THEY 2", Yquantum, Duality, Jal, Confused2, TRoc et al,

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
I fail to see any inconsistency with your comment. Magnetic fields only exist when there are + - charge polarity alignments.....their associated EM fields are always orthogonal. The magnetic fields in my comment were due to the field coils of the bubble chamber and how they affected the inherent charges of the particles passing thru them, causing a deviation of their flight path. The point being that fundamental particle charge is elementary.
------
Having worked on radar equipment, I am quite familiar with the concept of standing waves, but I don't see their correlation to the dynamic environment of the movement of electrons in the atomic structure. Can your explain what point you were trying to make, somehow that eluded me?
We sure seem to be "hitting the light cone wall" regarding this concept stretching that analogy a little. The concept of "primary charge" is inconsistent with my theory. Indeed the only "primary anything" is electromagnetic energy dynamically propagating in "free higher dimensional space".

That is why it is called Geometrodynamics. In a "slogan"...
JA Wheeler said...
QUOTE
    * mass without mass,
    * charge without charge,
    * field without field.

A completely geometric theory ultimately removing all these concepts as primary. And then extending into the Holographic Universe and the AdS/CFT of Juan Maldacena ultimately even removing Gravity and reduction of dimensions to boundaries as in the Weak Holographic Principle. In the end anything less than this will fail because its "vision" was too limited. Still... an "elephant" needs to be described in terms of what we know so others can grasp the "vision" too since we can all suffer selective "blindness".

Your comment above does not recognize that when I am saying "orthogonal" I mean to our three dimensional space not just to one or more dimensions. The other issue you seem not to be able to consider is the concept of the "untouched quantum". You are pushing a purely classical interpretation as proposed in the 19th Century. While photons can be absorbed in various processes they cannot be partially absorbed of "worn down"... as in the old classical point of view... where each and every photon losing tiny bits of energy through continuous emission and absorption events. This classical view is flawed and is not borne out by experiment. To me experiment is the ultimate test of any scientific theory and if a theory does not pass that test it is to be totally discarded. While emission and absorption may occur in an individual photon this destroys qubits. Maybe I will drop this concept for now since this is not "everyones" theory.

I do not want to debate the meaning of various experimental outcomes and try and split hairs. We should be on topic with the DSE and questions related to that specifically.
Wikipedia: Geometrodynamics
Wikipedia: AdS/CFT correspondence

Cheers
Confused2
Hi All,

This might have some bearing on the theories in progress..

Good Elf .. I'm sorry but your theories have previously mostly been a potential solution to a problem that I was not aware of. I hope we have agreed to differ on the random/not random nature of the photon counts, likewise the wavefunction-psi and superpositions thereof.

TRoc.. this may be relevent to your ideas too, maybe not.

New problem.

We have spaceships at velocity v1 and v2 relative to Deep space Nine. . Ship one sends a beam of light at frequency f to the other one. We leave it to the smart guys to work out the red/blue and Doppler shifts and when they've given us the answer we use de Broglie to tell us the energy of the photon that ship two will detect. Sooo ... when the photon was in between .. did it it have the energy it was transmitted with or the energy it was received with or something else entirely?

Comments/therapy most welcome,

Best wishes,

-C2.
jal
Good Day!
Should we not look at the actual experiment and do less speculating?
http://www.tongue-twister.net/mr/physics/entangled.htm
QUOTE
one out of 10^6 ultraviolet photons converts into two photons.

That is an interpretation.
As a matter of fact ...if you look closely you can count the photons ... 1/2 went right and made a circle and the other 1/2 went left and made a circle.
Where the two circle intersect, there are twice as many photons than in the rest of the circle. That is what got captured by the film.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
one out of 10^6 ultraviolet photons converts into two photons.

That is an interpretation.
As a matter of fact ...if you look closely you can count the photons ... 1/2 went right and made a circle and the other 1/2 went left and made a circle.
Where the two circle intersect, there are twice as many photons than in the rest of the circle. That is what got captured by the film.

The elucidation of new physical phenomena that allow control of the spectral properties of generated entangled photon pairs is of paramount importance.

Look at what has been produced .... Then ... apply your interpretation.
Where is the picture of the bubble? You are making it up. Where is the evidence that there are only two photons? You are making it up.
QUOTE
The entangled photon pairs from this source were used to demonstrate a violation of Bell's inequalities by over 100 standard deviations in less than 5 min

Comments on the experiments.
jal
User posted image
Duality
Hi Laserlight, "THEY" and "THEY 2", Yquantum, Duality, Jal, Confused2, TRoc, Good Elf, all, Hey how did I get in there? laugh.gif copy from GE's, greeting.

Confused2, I was just illustrating how the Pythagoras theorem was in common with the music/tones/frequency well you get the notes of the comment.

Your deep space nine, I am not sure I have heard of that satellite, do you know what country was responsible, and what is its function? blink.gif

Duality/Lisa sad.gif

Someone sent this in hopes you would have some fun, and it just might put you all back in Kansas.

http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_...bin/quantum.htm
Laserlight
Hi Jal and All,

I just lost my hard drive and am in the recovey mode with a new drive...pain in
the arse....

Jal, if you superimpose the 2 circular patterns of each photon on top of each other
you will find that they are concentric. IMO, this is a confirmation of entanglement.
The fact that they are not exactly overlapping is either showing a slight phasing
or slight energy mismatch, which has other implications, IMO.

I believe that if you were to project the side view waveform representations
of the entire concentric arrangement onto a 2D screen you would observe the
same banding interference patterns that are seen on the DSE screen. JMHO.

rolleyes.gif

LL
"THEY"
Duality - I just got home and read your last link to me: http://www.terryblackburn.us/music/temperament/index.htmlNooooooooo! I am going to throw myself out the window! My piano isn't tuned perfectly! rolleyes.gif That paper wound up being FAR more fascinating than I thought it would.

Troc - please read this link and see if it affects your work in any way. It shouldn't since you have the math, BUT..... I can't tune my piano PERFECTLY and have an octave. Hm, and I always thought I was nuts for thinking I heard beats.... (that was probably explained to me when I was 6, but what 6 year old would understand you can't tune w/o SOME minor beats???) So why would you tune to perfect "fifths" with no beats, and not be able to obtain an octave???? WEll, I guess this problem (as the article says) has been around for centuries. So I stand corrected. The math works for your model, NOT MY PIANO. (sob!) sO why does it seem to work for "tuning light waves" and not sound waves..... and why... But I don't feel like going nuts tonight so I won't think of why my piano can't be tuned properly. Could be interesting to buy a 2nd piano for though. If you only played a linear melody it would be interesting to hear a "perfectly tuned piano"..... (that couldn't play an octave)

Well, as jal said a few minutes ago, this thread IS rather off track. And I surely am off topic! (although it may affect Troc's model)

LETS GET BACK TO THE DSE!!!! I will just say so far I think Troc's work is interesting and will investigate further after birthday parties are done.

Actually, just re reading my post, [QUOTE me in this post]why does it work for "tuning light waves" and not sound waves..... [/QUOTE] DOES IT? Is it just a mathematical coincidence that it works for light? I need to see more than the music part..... sad.gif

ps to duality - deep space nine is a tv program - a mythical space station
Good Elf
Hi Duality,

QUOTE (Duality+)
Someone sent this in hopes you would have some fun, and it just might put you all back in Kansas. http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_...bin/quantum.htm ... Quantum Mysteries
From the page that Duality offered as a "help"... my view is "what mysteries?"... I can see a lot of quantum mumbo jumbo when people speak with "awe" and in lowered tones when discussing with the "Pope" on these matters of "Orthodox Doctrine"...
QUOTE (Deepening the quantum mysteries+)
All of these experiments were carried out using beams of individual photons, and there is no way in which the results can be explained by using classical physics. They lay bare the mysteriousness of quantum mechanics in all its glory, and in particular demonstrate its "non local" nature -- the way in which a photon starting out on its journey behaves in a different way for each experimental setup, as if it knew in advance what kind of experiment it was about to go through.

Don't worry if you don't understand this. Richard Feynman didn't, and he warned "do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, 'But how can it be like that?' because you will go 'down the drain' into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that.

It seems to me these statements are "offered" without justification. Sure... 19th Century Physics can't explain these things but revised with 21st Century semi-classical theory and the results of well devised experiments we most certainly can. These statements just are "empty rhetoric" containing nothing more than appellation to "authority" (as eminent as it is). If we really believed that "authority" is the way we run our World then Adolf Hitler should have been made World President since he was the chief exponent of this "philosophy".

Anyone who actually believed in Science would always demonstrate, without any shadow of ambiguity, what is the most important experiment that demonstrates why this statement is true and why no existing explanation is possible. I think that the answer is very "simple", can be shown by by a simple college experiment, and able to be practically demonstrated. The Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser is working with standing waves set up along the "short" dimensional "resonant" path in space to the rest of the Universe (from beyond our time). The photon, once it "knows" everything about that path, apparently traces it out in time through propagation.
QUOTE (More atoms that communicate faster than light+)
Common sense tells us that the first atom cannot be excited until a finite time after the second atom decays -- until there has been time for radiation traveling at the speed of light to cross the gap. That is the result Fermi found. But it now turns out that he made a mistake in his calculation. Probably because the mistaken conclusion matched common sense, it took a long time for this to come to light. But Hegerfeldt's correct version of the calculation now makes it clear that there is a small chance that the first atom will be excited as soon as the second atom decays (Physical Review Letters, vol 72 p 596). As with all such quantum puzzles, this is only the beginning of the story; now, the experts have to explain what this mathematical result means. The best interpretation of the evidence so far seems to be that we should not think of any object, not even a single atom, as an "isolated system".
Clearly another case of resonance along that short path, mentioned above, that leads to the standing waves in higher dimensions. The standing wave pattern "conditions" events occurring in that propagating "event".
QUOTE (Solving the quantum mysteries+)
From a 50:50 probability of the flash occurring either on the hemisphere or on the outer sphere, the quantum wave function has collapsed into a 100 per cent certainty that the flash will occur on the outer sphere. But this has happened without the observer actually "observing" anything at all! It is purely a result of a change in the observer's knowledge about what is going on in the experiment. It requires an observer intelligent enough to infer what is happening, and what would have happened if the particle had been heading towards the inner hemisphere (so a cat, for example, clearly would not be intelligent enough to cause this particular collapse of a wave function). Under these circumstances, the absence of an observation can collapse the quantum wave function as effectively as an actual observation can. At least, so says the Copenhagen interpretation.

This central role for the observer -- not just any observer, but an intelligent observer -- lies at the heart of the standard Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Violation of Canonical Typicality. These guys are talking through their "hat". While it is true to say that 50% of the world's population are males and 50% are females it is not true to say that a single measurement will surely indicate that a single individual is 50% male and 50% female at the same time. Waves of probability just do not exist since a single photon does not have a statistical "distribution". It is true to say that a number of photons have a statistical distribution... and that is ABSOLUTELY ALL that can be said about an "ensemble" of photons. In the case of a single photon we know that the photon will land on a place that does not involve noise related signal. A photon can travel from a distant star system to earth taking billions of years and the image is just as crisp as the day the photons started on their journey. If noise was introduced into the system the nature of the source would be lost with increasing distance. So while we do not know where a particular photon will land on a screen we do know that the photon and its qubit reflects the source in "perfect" detail as long as it is still in a quantum mode. People should stop repeating "theories" which were in vogue 80 years ago when there was no experimental evidence. I am appalled by the naivety of this analysis.
QUOTE (Photons faster than light+)
[...]But the new experiment is so sophisticated that it can compare the arrival times of pairs of photons, one of which has gone past the barrier and one through it, and shows that the one which goes through the barrier arrives first. It tunneled through the barrier faster than the speed of light, in less than 3.6 femtoseconds. As the researchers put it, "it is as though the particle 'skipped' the bulk of the barrier". But don't ask them, or anyone else, what it means -- in the words of Richard Feynman, "nobody understands quantum mechanics".
Space is "quantized" such that we have standing waves in and around "barriers". If a particle strikes a barrier where there is an anti-node, there is a very high probability that the particle will be "absorbed" or scattered. If there is a node at that point it is almost impossible for a particle to be scattered or absorbed at a node since there is none of the energy of the particle there. If the barrier is thin enough the particle might pass through the barrier without any interaction. You can see this occurring in the vacuum in a similar way to the way it occurs in certain meta-materials. The speed is the same as in this case...
Boyd on Faster than light "voids"...
QUOTE (Molecules make quantum waves+)
[...]Not just diffraction (in which one beam, or wave, bends as it passes an obstruction) but interference (in which two beams or waves interact with one another) has been demonstrated both for electrons and atoms. Now, a team of researchers at the University of Paris-North, at Villetaneuse in France, has done the trick with molecules.

[...]In the traditional version of the interference experiment with light, two beams of light are generated by passing light from a single source through two slits in a screen. Then, the two beams are allowed to interfere, producing a characteristic stripey pattern of light and shade. The new experiment is conceptually similar, but instead of passing through holes in a screen the iodine molecules (I2, which each have a mass about 254 times that of a neutron) interact with laser beams. The first interaction, with a pair of laser beams, puts each molecule into what is known as a "superposition of states", effectively two wave packets marching side by side. A second pair of laser beams recombines the wave packets to make "particles". At least, that is the theory. What happens in practice? After they have passed through the laser beams, the iodine molecules arrive at a detector. The distribution of the molecules arriving at the detector does not resemble the pattern you would expect if they were a stream of particles traveling through the experiment, but exactly matches the stripey pattern of peaks and troughs corresponding to interference by waves (Physics Letters A, vol 188 p 187). These are the heaviest "particles" which have ever demonstrated their wave "character" directly in experiments.
Particles do not just "deflect" through the slots but they do form standing waves. This analysis shows a lack of real understanding of the events and "glossing" over the important details. Everything makes waves but for waves to work with large atoms they must literally interfere with themselves and not with any other particles. A particle can actually interfere or be scattered with other particles unlike bosons. The experiment is best done with real particles one atom at a time. The atoms must be "velocity selected" and for reasonable wavelengths the velocity will need to be really very low. The "dumbed down" statements are created to present the maximum "shock and awe".

This is not the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Lourdes but is presented to the "flock" that is about to be "fleeced" as an "apparition" of almost religious significance. Wide eyed credulity is usually required before "Doubting Thomas" demands a close examination of the eyewitness accounts.

Comments greatfully examined. However a "Profession of Faith" document will need to be signed before admission.

Cheers
jal
Good day all!
I had to take a quick peek at the thread. smile.gif
User posted image
Laserlight
QUOTE
...this is a confirmation of entanglement.
The fact that they are not exactly overlapping is either showing a slight phasing
or slight energy mismatch, which has other implications, IMO.

I believe that if you were to project the side view waveform representations
of the entire concentric arrangement onto a 2D screen you would observe the
same banding interference patterns that are seen on the DSE screen. JMHO.

STOP!
Explain to me how those two photons with their discreate energy can "light up" those thousands of electrons AND in two circles.
Let's stay with the simple explanation.
SORRY ... Lets look an experiment that can confirm that 2 photon will move in a circular pattern. dry.gif
What is the underlying mechanism?
How can you demonstrate that there were not 10^6 photons making those two circles?
jal
TRoc
Hi all,



THEY
QUOTE
My question, why is a perfectly tuned piano NOT the exact same frequencies as your chart?


There is some HUP inside your piano too! Remember that for every TWO keys there is one string. This is probably the craziest thing I remember learning about tuning. The poor piano tuners (people)! Each time they adjust one key, the other side of the string is affected. Over, and over again, they must do this until BOTH strings are simultaneously in tune. A "spool" (not the right term) is what the string "hinges" on, and may or may not "slip" a little at any given moment. The math that makes this "possible" (to figure a MOVING length of mass, a CHANGING two-way tension) is the RATIO and approximations.

The second part for less than perfect tuning is the accuracy. BTW, the notes that I used for example were rounded off to integers. (sorry) I didn't start getting the accuracy needed to produce "c" as a constant, until I worked out 35 digits of 2^(1/12). Even if musicians wanted to calculate their frequencies this accurately, the gears (or mechanics) of the tuners themselves wouldn't allow for that SMALL of a change to the length & tension. (you would need <nano-tuners.)


So, onward, into the light!

To get the "linewidth" to a single frequency is impossible due to HUP. Here is a paper describing the current limit.

A phase locked, fiber laser-based frequency comb: limit on optical linewidth*
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
My question, why is a perfectly tuned piano NOT the exact same frequencies as your chart?


There is some HUP inside your piano too! Remember that for every TWO keys there is one string. This is probably the craziest thing I remember learning about tuning. The poor piano tuners (people)! Each time they adjust one key, the other side of the string is affected. Over, and over again, they must do this until BOTH strings are simultaneously in tune. A "spool" (not the right term) is what the string "hinges" on, and may or may not "slip" a little at any given moment. The math that makes this "possible" (to figure a MOVING length of mass, a CHANGING two-way tension) is the RATIO and approximations.

The second part for less than perfect tuning is the accuracy. BTW, the notes that I used for example were rounded off to integers. (sorry) I didn't start getting the accuracy needed to produce "c" as a constant, until I worked out 35 digits of 2^(1/12). Even if musicians wanted to calculate their frequencies this accurately, the gears (or mechanics) of the tuners themselves wouldn't allow for that SMALL of a change to the length & tension. (you would need <nano-tuners.)


So, onward, into the light!

To get the "linewidth" to a single frequency is impossible due to HUP. Here is a paper describing the current limit.

A phase locked, fiber laser-based frequency comb: limit on optical linewidth*
Abstract: A phase-locked fiber laser-based frequency comb is presented. Despite the broad linewidth of
the measured carrier-envelope offset frequency, the linewidth of a single line near the center of the frequency comb is ≤ 6 kHz.
* Work of NIST, an agency of the U.S. Government, not subject to copyright.
OCIS codes: (140.3510) Lasers, Fiber; (190.4370) Nonlinear Optics, Fibers; (120.3930) Metrological Instrumentation;



And, to "find the perfect octave?" Well, not "exactly" perfect!

Ultraprecise Measurement of Optical Frequency Ratios

QUOTE
We developed a novel technique for frequency measurement and synthesis, based on the operation of a femtosecond comb generator as transfer oscillator. The technique can be used to measure frequency ratios of any optical signals throughout the visible and near-infrared part of the spectrum. Relative
uncertainties of 10218 for averaging times of 100 s are possible. Using a Nd:YAG laser in combination with a nonlinear crystal we measured the frequency ratio of the second harmonic nSH at 532 nm to the fundamental n0 at 1064 nm, nSHn0  2.000 000 000 000 000 001 3 1 6 7 3 10219.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We developed a novel technique for frequency measurement and synthesis, based on the operation of a femtosecond comb generator as transfer oscillator. The technique can be used to measure frequency ratios of any optical signals throughout the visible and near-infrared part of the spectrum. Relative
uncertainties of 10218 for averaging times of 100 s are possible. Using a Nd:YAG laser in combination with a nonlinear crystal we measured the frequency ratio of the second harmonic nSH at 532 nm to the fundamental n0 at 1064 nm, nSHn0  2.000 000 000 000 000 001 3 1 6 7 3 10219.


Any absolute frequency measurement is finally limited by the frequency instability of the device realizing the unit of frequency, Hertz, such as a radio or microwave reference like the hydrogen maser. A possibility to avoid this limitation is the measurement of optical frequency ratios, which are unitless. Thus, frequency ratios for oscillators with better stability than that of the radio or microwave reference can be determined with smaller uncertainty than the
absolute frequencies if a technique is available to realize the frequency ratio without introducing additional noise.


QUOTE
The frequencydoubling process enabled the generation of a pair of reference frequencies with completely correlated fluctuations, leading to a fixed frequency ratio 2:1 even for the shortest averaging times.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The frequencydoubling process enabled the generation of a pair of reference frequencies with completely correlated fluctuations, leading to a fixed frequency ratio 2:1 even for the shortest averaging times.


The capability of such high precision measurements enables new applications in spectroscopy as soon as appropriate reference signals from optical transitions can be realized with sufficient frequency stability. Interesting questions are effects such as QED corrections, isotope shifts, or relativistic corrections to absolute transition frequencies [18]. Related to the expanding Universe, a variation of fundamental constants such as the coupling strengths of electromagnetic, weak, or strong interaction is expected.




C2
QUOTE
..Doppler shifts... when the photon was in between .. did it it have the energy it was transmitted with or the energy it was received with or something else entirely?


I would say, that anything Doppler effected would be AT the receiver due to velocity difference. Changes in velocities also happen in mediums, and
"obstacles" like barriers and slits.


regards,

T.Roc

Laserlight
Jal,

I re-read the experimental setup a couple of more times, and also your
original questioning of the post.

Here are the points that I think are important in the set up of the experiment.

http://www.tongue-twister.net/mr/physics/bbo_photo.htm

1. the UV-pump beam (wavelength 351nm)

2. They used high-speed infrared film

3. The UV-light from the pump laser and fluorescence from the crystal were held back by stacks of UV-cutoff filters.

4. We used 681nm, 702nm, 725nm interference filters

5. A stack of cutoff filters (UVHaze F3, UVHaze F4, O2 F5) further reduce the background light.

6. A great number of photographs were taken on Kodak high-speed BW infrared film with different exposure times.

7. The optimal contrast on the film was achieved for exposure times of 1 hour at a UV-pump power of 165mW.

8. Polarization-entangled photons are observed at the intersection of the two circles.
------------

The source beam is UV, it is filtered out so none reaches the infrared
sensitive film. Only infrared is reaching the film.

As to the actual number of discrete down converted photons, I haven't a real
clue, since each exposure was for an hour.

Notice that each color filter shows the overlap of the polarized cones of that
IR spectral wavelength/energy level.

Apparently the configuration of the crystal lattice polarizes the photons in different
orientations to the incident beam according to their phasing, which results in
circular patterns captured on the film.

QUOTE

Technical footnote
The down-conversion photon pairs are emitted in directions determined by the phase-matching conditions and energy conservation in the Beta Barium Borate (BBO) crystal. In type-II down-conversion the polarization of one cone is parallel while the other is perpendicular to the pump beam. Our photograph shows the projection of the cones on the infrared film for the pairs (681 & 725 nm), (702 & 702 nm), and (725 & 681 nm). Along the intersections of the cones of the same wavelength (in our photograph the green circles) polarization-entangled photon states can be observed.


User posted image

Jal said:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Technical footnote
The down-conversion photon pairs are emitted in directions determined by the phase-matching conditions and energy conservation in the Beta Barium Borate (BBO) crystal. In type-II down-conversion the polarization of one cone is parallel while the other is perpendicular to the pump beam. Our photograph shows the projection of the cones on the infrared film for the pairs (681 & 725 nm), (702 & 702 nm), and (725 & 681 nm). Along the intersections of the cones of the same wavelength (in our photograph the green circles) polarization-entangled photon states can be observed.


User posted image

Jal said:
Explain to me how those two photons with their discreate energy can "light up" those thousands of electrons AND in two circles.
Let's stay with the simple explanation.
SORRY ... Lets look an experiment that can confirm that 2 photon will move in a circular pattern. 
What is the underlying mechanism?
How can you demonstrate that there were not 10^6 photons making those two circles?


Fair questions. I think it takes us right back to the interference of the DSE and
why do single photons form the outline of a wave pattern and not fall anywhere
inside or outside of the wave outline?....

I'll take a WAG.

IMO, the photon's wavefunction energy follows the instantaneous amplitude at any point
along the sine wave curve. Depending upon where the sine wave "grounds out" along
the curve, that specific amplitude "energy point" of the wave is recorded as a detected point on the screen.

I'm guessing that the BBO crystal is emitting circularly polarized light.

Any other explanations?? Comments???

wink.gif
LL
Confused2
jal,LL,D/L, All,

Downconversion from BBO ( http://www.tongue-twister.net/mr/physics/entangled.htm )

I must admit I can't make much sense of this. I'm not sure I agree with LL's suggestion. There's a pdf file in this link http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/11/9 which I can't open due to primitive equipment. I assume you and LL have looked at it and it hasn't helped.

My guess would be that there are many millions of photons involved. I suspect the momentum of each photon will increase with frequency so conservation of momentum in the XY plane suggests that if the higher frequency photon paths deviates by an angle a from the incident beam then the lower frequency photon must deviate by a larger angle (and at 180 degrees), hence one dot on one circle matches a dot diametrically opposite on the other circle.

It looks like the total momentum of the two photons has to add up to the momentum of the pump photon so defining the frequency of the one photon automatically defines defines the frequency of the other.

My guess is that the importance of the result is that the frequency of the emitted photon has been decided by a filter AFTER the UV photon has hit the crystal and both photons 'agree' with whatever decision has been made.. hence 'entanglement' . I'm not sure the bright bit where the circles overlap is particularly important given the significance of the 'main' result about entanglement.

Could well be wrong.

Best wishes,

-C2.

Edit .. the absence of two concentric circles on each side suggests there must be some asymmetry about the way the 'decision' is made .. I don't understand where this might come from.
Duality
Good Elf, all,

"THEY", thanks now I feel quite ridiculous on the space nine satellite. sad.gif

Good Elf, Wooooooo there chap, it was how the tread was going as someone had mentioned already, off the subject. We are dealing with tangents and should stay focused that is all, no offense given and you did get the point. Congratulations! wink.gif

Get back back to the problem, of the Double Slit Experiment and you said it yourself best, stop the philosophy and deal with the problem in the 21 century mindset.

I told you to have fun, not to write a essay on the nutty paper, it was a satire on how things were going.

I like what Confused2, jal, TRoc, "THEY", and LL, but things went different directions and that seems to be the norm on most post, I wanted to help and keep our eye on the problem.

But what would happen if everyone stayed on track and worked on the problem as ONE! We do not need to agree on everything, but keep pushing towards the solution. If I caused you offense, I will step on there toes and tell them to register and tell you what they think, I kind of like the idea now that I mentioned it.

That was what the paper was all about. I am on your side!

Duality/Lisa
jal
Good Day all! smile.gif
Let’s look at the theory again.
http://www.joot.com/dave/writings/articles...anglement.shtml
QUOTE
The Theory
When a photon (usually polarized laser light) passes through matter, it will be absorbed by an electron. Eventually, and spontaneously, the electron will return to its ground state by emitting the photon. Certain crystal structures increase the likelihood that the photon will split into two photons, both of them with longer wavelengths than the original. Keep in mind that a longer wavelength means a lower frequency, and thus less energy. The total energy of the two photons must equal the energy of the photon originally fired from the laser (conservation of energy).
When the original photon splits into two photons, the resulting photon pair is considered entangled.
The process of using certain crystals to split incoming photons into pairs of photons is called parametric down-conversion.


User posted image
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The Theory
When a photon (usually polarized laser light) passes through matter, it will be absorbed by an electron. Eventually, and spontaneously, the electron will return to its ground state by emitting the photon. Certain crystal structures increase the likelihood that the photon will split into two photons, both of them with longer wavelengths than the original. Keep in mind that a longer wavelength means a lower frequency, and thus less energy. The total energy of the two photons must equal the energy of the photon originally fired from the laser (conservation of energy).
When the original photon splits into two photons, the resulting photon pair is considered entangled.
The process of using certain crystals to split incoming photons into pairs of photons is called parametric down-conversion.


User posted image
When a photon (usually polarized laser light) passes through matter, it will be absorbed by an electron. Eventually, and spontaneously, the electron will return to its ground state by emitting the photon.

Do you want to speculate on another/NEW mechanism to account for all of the electrons emitting a photon in two circular patterns?
QUOTE
The total energy of the two photons must equal the energy of the photon originally fired from the laser (conservation of energy).

ALSO, the total energy of all of the electrons in the circles MUST EQUAL THE TOTAL ENERGY OF THE TWO PHOTONS THAT WERE EMITTED.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The total energy of the two photons must equal the energy of the photon originally fired from the laser (conservation of energy).

ALSO, the total energy of all of the electrons in the circles MUST EQUAL THE TOTAL ENERGY OF THE TWO PHOTONS THAT WERE EMITTED.
LL
IMO, the photon's wavefunction energy follows the instantaneous amplitude at any point
along the sine wave curve. Depending upon where the sine wave "grounds out" along
the curve, that specific amplitude "energy point" of the wave is recorded as a detected point on the screen.

Keep in mind that you would not “see” the circle if there had not been energy/photon to activate the electrons at those positions.
What are we going to do….. science or science fiction or NEW SCIENCE?
JAL
Duality
Jal,

Make sure Good Elf reads the note above yours. It was not meant to cause harm.

Lisa wub.gif
jal
Duality biggrin.gif
No problems biggrin.gif
We just entangled our posts. biggrin.gif
To emphasize
What mechanism did the high-speed infrared film make a record for all of us to see?
ACCIDENTAL DISCOVERY?
jal
Duality
jal, all,

Understood, I live for discoveries and better understanding. If I did not, I would not get paid... laugh.gif

Remember, all light focused or not is still light, radio/< 3 x 10^9 Hz - Gamma Rays/ > 3 x 10^19 Hz and the speed limit is the same as well as the dynamics that goes with the laws already well established.

Will do some thought on this, but I do not see on the surface how it would change the weirdness/strange behavior of the DSE.

Best,
Duality/Lisa wub.gif
Laserlight
Jal and All,

Here is some info on BBO crystals and their characteristics.

http://bbo-crystal.optical-components.com/

http://www.optical-components.com/BBO-crystal.html

http://www.unitedcrystals.com/BBOProp.html

These crystals are non-linear and generate multi-order harmonics easily. This is a clue.

I believe that your question about how a circle is formed from a collective of
individual photons originates in the crystal and supports my contention of
the instantaneous detected energy level of the sine wave at a specific energy
point along the sine curve. I think perhaps C2 is correct also, in that the
momentum (a function of the energy of the secondary photons) comes into play.

I think that we have to also consider that we are dealing with a crystal matrix.
There are likely very different atomic locations performing the down conversions
thruout the depth of the crystal lattice, so the angle of photon emission from
different origination points in the lattice will refract at different angles according
to their energy levels and phase timing relationship to the incident UV photons.


Other opinions welcome.

LL
jal
Duality
I know that you have two eyes... biggrin.gif
You got to compartmentalize your brain or it will turn to mush. biggrin.gif
You have more tech knowledge in this area than us.
Put the theories that you have in an other compartment and look at the recorded info.
REMEMBER .... CONSERVATION OF ENERGY INVOLVES SPACE LOCATION AND TIME LOCATION.
There is a physical mechanism that was recorded.
When we have finished analysing the mechanisms .... what will be left ... will probably be IT.
JAL
ps In my opinion...The cones indicate a path towards understanding
Confused2
jal,
UV frequency is about 10^14 Hz
E per photon about 10^14 x 10^-34 = 10^-20 J
100mW laser is 0.1 J/sec so 0.1/ (10^-20) = 10^19
If we get 1 entangled pair out per 10^6 photons in we get 10^13 pairs per second (oodles!)
Best wishes, -C2.
jal
Confused2!
Hey! This is coming along just fine.
Great!
Now what mechanism made the photons light up the film in two circle pattern?
jal
Confused2
Hi jal,
You missed
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=152207
or did it not make sense?-C2.
TRoc
Hi all,


Maybe this will help.

user posted image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_polarization

QUOTE
In electrodynamics, circular polarization of electromagnetic radiation is a polarization such that the tip of the electric field vector, at a fixed point in space, describes a circle as time progresses. The name is derived from this fact. The electric vector, at one point in time, describes a helix along the direction of wave propagation (see the polarization article for pictures). The magnitude of the electric field vector is constant as it rotates. Circular polarization is a limiting case of the more general condition of elliptical polarization. The other special case is the easier-to-understand linear polarization.

Circular (and elliptical) polarization is possible because the propagating electric (and magnetic) fields can have two orthogonal components with independent amplitudes and phases (and the same frequency).
A circularly polarized wave may be resolved into two linearly polarized waves, of equal amplitude, in phase quadrature (90 degrees apart) and with their planes of polarization at right angles to each other.

Circular polarization may be referred to as right or left, depending on the direction in which the electric field vector rotates. Unfortunately, two opposing, historical conventions exist. In physics and astronomy, polarization is defined as seen from the receiver, such as a telescope or radio telescope. By this definition, if you could stop time and look at the electric field along the beam, it would trace a helix which is the same shape as the same-handed screw. For example, right circular polarization produces a right threaded (or forward threaded) screw. In the U.S., Federal Standard 1037C also defines the handedness of circular polarization in this manner. In electrical engineering, however, it is more common to define polarization as seen from the source, such as from a transmitting antenna. To avoid confusion, it is good practice to specify "as seen from the receiver" (or transmitter) when polarization matters.

(emphasis added)

You can also see the relevance to C2's last question about the "energy" changes due to Doppler being "seen" at the source, receiver, or "IN BETWEEN".

As far as "SEEING", I have to say, at the receiver. But "HAPPENING" is unprovable, at this stage of our technical ability.

This is the BIG difference between QM's "counter-intuitive" explanation, and one that could be understood by "mechanism" of "on the way" causation. They have their ANSWERS, and their EXPLANATIONS, that includes "the unknowable" factor (Copenhagen). The ANSWERS are right, but the EXPLANATION is not. I think most of us here will agree to that, to some degree or another.

If we come up with a model, whose "mechanism" takes the data from start to finish, and matches the answer, then we have what we are looking for. Cause "following" Effect in "time". Cramer pointed out, clearly, that Schroedinger's equations can (and ARE) solved for BOTH. This makes the "time" fuzzy, and leads to another "set" of explanations that are also "counter-intuitive" (don't make sense). Nobly, QM used Ockham's Razor, and said "we are not going to replace nonsense with nonsense". rolleyes.gif


My view on this is that we can still have cause following effect in the time-line, AND have two-way wave communication. The "effect" (receiver) does not communicate FROM the moment of the "cause", it ALREADY WAS there. I think of it sort of like a ZIPPER, two sides of "teeth", OFFSET by a MINIMUM ratio. Very different explanations are needed to describe the zipping, and UNzipping, and from the "sides" point of view, and the "zipper piece" (?) point of view.


My theory is very simple. The Universe is FULL of waves of all "kinds". They are all "in step" with c . They can superimpose, and form simple, and complex resonances. When an EM signal leaves the source, it is "zipping" along the E and B field lines. The PROBABILISTIC part of the wave is the one coming BACK from the "receiver", eliminating "dissonances" along the way. This is along the lines of Bayesian Logic. Reducing the "possible" by first eliminating the "impossible".

We already KNOW (fact) that these two bodies were ALREADY communicating. Mach's principle, Inverse square law, Newton Forces, etc. There are "waves" already there. This is a "carrier signal", a non-Zero-point energy, the "background radiation (CMB). If you want to include Gravity with QM, this is the way. It is the "missing fundamental" effect. The "setting" of the permittivity & permeability of free space; once that is stable, or in equilibrium (which it is) " c " is the constant speed for any transfer of energy done by a coupled EM wave. Uncoupled waves do not have to follow such rules (only E OR B, longitudinal/transverse). These do, in fact, have different "base" velocities, and each has very different velocity~vector relationships. (constructive/destructive)

From the Resonance Matrix, you can see that the CENTER of the values is based on the speed of light waves. The "center" for SOUND wave symmetry is NOT in the same place, yet not as far as you might think. The point I want to add here, without going off too far, is that, there is ONE more VELOCITY symmetry indicated by this "matrix". I am going to "presume" (postulate) that it will indicate a SUBLUMINAL average velocity, in addition to the two that we currently have. (for sound and light)


As GE has pointed out, the cavity has a PRE-SET geometry, and that will give "guidance" to the incoming radiation. I think that the Vibration of the wave has a definite geometry as well, AND BOTH are required to give the "final answer". The "handshake" ALREADY is "extended" towards the "hand" (signal). It is "circular" in free space, but can become "chiral" based on the medium (matter).

This should lead to a similar vein in polarization, chirality, and angular momentum.
"Quantizing" this spin into 12 parts (13 steps to "return") allows for a different geometry to be utilized, including just a "few" harmonic divisions of the "circle". The # of turns stays the same, but the distance between full cycles gets larger (the threads of the screw/helice).

Any "overlapping, mixing, interacting, reflecting, entangling, superimposing, etc." would be able to be described by a limited set of ratios to this primary, or Fundamental radius. This way, the "point" in the "center" is not necessarily REAL. Just the "trace" of the helice; a 3D sector of a circle, on a hyperbolic triangle could APPEAR BOTH as a straight line, and a curve, depending on your frame of reference.



regards,

T.Roc

jal
wacko.gif Yep!
I missed the post by Laserlight
Did I also miss (in the experiment) that they was more than 2 "smaller" photons?
QUOTE
I think that we have to also consider that we are dealing with a crystal matrix.
There are likely very different atomic locations performing the down conversions
thruout the depth of the crystal lattice, so the angle of photon emission from
different origination points in the lattice will refract at different angles according
to their energy levels and phase timing relationship to the incident UV photons.

Laserlight then how come, if there was more than 2 photons, that there was not a random distribution on the film?
TRoc good thing that I looked down or I would have missed your post too. smile.gif
The circular polerization that you speak of (yes, I read it and understand it) does not explain that the two photons went to all of those locations on the film.
It does not explain the fact that the walk was not random.
Therefore, are we saying that there was only two photons or are we saying that there was more than two photons?
I've put my theory in a compartment. We know yours, we know GE, we know duality.
What did the experiment/film tell us/record/observe?
jal

edit: I'm searching for r3c structure to get more info
http://www.unitedcrystals.com/BBOProp.html
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I think that we have to also consider that we are dealing with a crystal matrix.
There are likely very different atomic locations performing the down conversions
thruout the depth of the crystal lattice, so the angle of photon emission from
different origination points in the lattice will refract at different angles according
to their energy levels and phase timing relationship to the incident UV photons.

Laserlight then how come, if there was more than 2 photons, that there was not a random distribution on the film?
TRoc good thing that I looked down or I would have missed your post too. smile.gif
The circular polerization that you speak of (yes, I read it and understand it) does not explain that the two photons went to all of those locations on the film.
It does not explain the fact that the walk was not random.
Therefore, are we saying that there was only two photons or are we saying that there was more than two photons?
I've put my theory in a compartment. We know yours, we know GE, we know duality.
What did the experiment/film tell us/record/observe?
jal

edit: I'm searching for r3c structure to get more info
http://www.unitedcrystals.com/BBOProp.html
Crystal Structure: Trigonal, space group R3c
TRoc
Hi all,


Jal
QUOTE
The circular polerization that you speak of (yes, I read it and understand it) does not explain that the two photons went to all of those locations on the film. 

It does not explain the fact that the walk was not random.


I thought it did! Think about the coupled EM wave: part E field, part B field, orthogonally related. There is ANOTHER half of this picture, the PHASE that is the opposite. The POINT is, that 1/4 of the circle only exists at one time, WHILE in flight. When you "catch" this wave (measure), there is TOO LITTLE time to catch just 1/2, or 1/4. You catch the impression of a circle from 1/2 an opposite phase. Click the link so that you can see the picture that I TRIED to link (didn't work) in my last post. (edit)

In terms of the electron, in an atom, there is a small amount of time before re-emission occurs after absorption. During this time, the "rest of the circle" gets imprinted in the measuring device, even though the FIRST half was responsible for the "transition".

This is how SHG works: the DENSITY of waves (intensity) creates the SITUATION where ONE photon excites the electron, and ANOTHER one passes through the "gap". The results: TWO photons come out "from the same place and time".

This is also the process of the LASER (stimulated emission), and the "controlling" of light where there is no beat between the incoming photon and the outgoing photon.

From my last quote
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The circular polerization that you speak of (yes, I read it and understand it) does not explain that the two photons went to all of those locations on the film. 

It does not explain the fact that the walk was not random.


I thought it did! Think about the coupled EM wave: part E field, part B field, orthogonally related. There is ANOTHER half of this picture, the PHASE that is the opposite. The POINT is, that 1/4 of the circle only exists at one time, WHILE in flight. When you "catch" this wave (measure), there is TOO LITTLE time to catch just 1/2, or 1/4. You catch the impression of a circle from 1/2 an opposite phase. Click the link so that you can see the picture that I TRIED to link (didn't work) in my last post. (edit)

In terms of the electron, in an atom, there is a small amount of time before re-emission occurs after absorption. During this time, the "rest of the circle" gets imprinted in the measuring device, even though the FIRST half was responsible for the "transition".

This is how SHG works: the DENSITY of waves (intensity) creates the SITUATION where ONE photon excites the electron, and ANOTHER one passes through the "gap". The results: TWO photons come out "from the same place and time".

This is also the process of the LASER (stimulated emission), and the "controlling" of light where there is no beat between the incoming photon and the outgoing photon.

From my last quote ..if you could stop time and look at the electric field along the beam, it would trace a helix ..


BUT, we can NOT stop time, and see the helix. It collapses circular/spherical.


The "walk off" is not random, true. Spherical harmonics can be reduced in dimension, to "circular harmonics". Remember the relationship I pointed out among these 3 frequencies. Only ONE was the harmonic, equal to EITHER 2x the original frequency (when summed) or 2 OF the original frequency. The other 2 were both a 1/2 step (1.026) up or down, the MOST dissonant relationship. If we could see a few more examples, especially the 1/4 (1.25) and 1/2 (1.5) ratios, you would see the pattern much better.


ciao,

T.Roc

jal
TRoc
I don't want you to throw out your explanation/theory ... let us all try to put our theories on the back burner. smile.gif

I looked at r3c structure (Beta-Barium Borate (b-BaB2O4)) to get more info. on how the two photons are generated from the structure of the crystal.
Frankly, I walked into an area requiring the expertize of crystallography.
Any takers?

see
http://cst-www.nrl.navy.mil/lattice/spcgrp/index.html
Crystal Lattice Structures
And http://arxiv.org/ftp/nucl-th/papers/0309/0309035.pdf
The double tetrahedron structure of the nucleus
And
http://www.res.kutc.kansai-u.ac.jp/~cook/NVSIndex.html
The Nuclear Visualization Software

Let's not forget .... it's the crystal making the pattern.
How?

jal
Duality
All,

I am putting forth an effort to close one eye that is fundamental/technical as jal, has requested.

TRoc,
We know that so called normal matter, which includes plants, people, equipment and space, gives off electromagnetic radiation, or light correct? How does this fit into your model using the apparatus mentioned above in most of the post.

My only concern, with one eye closed the big issue is being looked into, unsure.gif but the nuances which are micro seem to be overlooked and this has turned my mind into mush #^%#? blink.gif

I am just asking with a very objective not critical perspective.

Duality/L wub.gif
TRoc
Hi all,



Jal
QUOTE
.... it's the crystal making the pattern.  How?


Is that the question you were asking before?

I'm not sure exactly what your question is. Why the circles end up in the photo?



Duality
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
.... it's the crystal making the pattern.  How?


Is that the question you were asking before?

I'm not sure exactly what your question is. Why the circles end up in the photo?



Duality How does this fit into your model using the apparatus mentioned above in most of the post.


Are you asking about the "recent" apparatus, the b-BaB2O4 crystal, or back to the DSE in general?



T.Roc


Duality
TRoc,

I want this to new approach of yours to work & you realize the crystal was used at first due to, well you know the history.

the b-BaB2O4 crystal but you can not overlook the DSE in general, and from your post it seem you want to cross all the t's & dot all the i.

Duality/Lisa smile.gif
Confused2
HI TRoc,
QUOTE (Duality+)

How does this fit into your model using the apparatus mentioned above in most of the post.


I'm not sure what Duality meant either (not for the first time biggrin.gif )

http://schools.matter.org.uk/Content/Inter...ce/formula.html

.. it was chosen as theory free 'derivation' where all you need to know is the wavelength and Bob's your bright bits.

A classical (EM) 'proof' of this result is easy.

With all the extra frequencies (wavelengths) you generate I feel you are going to end up predicting a different result .. which can be discarded as 'wrong'. IMHO opinion even if 'wrong' it is better physics and there is more hope for it than a totally handwaving approach.

Best wishes,

-C2.
Duality
Guys,

This is of my doing and I apologize. What I was concerned about was the results and I still stand on the problem of entanglement, wave collapse, etc., but jal wants me to close one eye.

This might be a little more simple dealing with the crystal, by calculating electronic states of the neutral molecule Ba3(B3O6)2, Cheng, Huang, and Lu have tried to obtain the nonlinear optical coefficients of the β-BaB2O4(BBO) crystal [Phys. Rev. B 57, 1527 (1998)].

In this Comment, they point out that they have wrongly related the crystal axes of the BBO crystal and those of their structural model.

When the axis systems are correctly set their calculated results disagree totally with the experimental ones. Does this cause a problem for you in your premise?

I hope this is simple if not I will try and do better next time, now to attend a meeting.

D/L

Confused2, I know what you mean I have to live with myself and that is why I do not sleep much, I have figured out how to turn my small gray matter from firing. laugh.gif
jal
Duality
QUOTE
but jal wants me to close one eye

Darn it.... not that eye .... close the one with the theory
Let's not forget .... it's the crystal making the pattern.
How?
diffraction??? absorption/emission??
mechanical??? quantum???
If you can figure out what made the effect or how it was made then the analysis of the effects should be easier.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
but jal wants me to close one eye

Darn it.... not that eye .... close the one with the theory
Let's not forget .... it's the crystal making the pattern.
How?
diffraction??? absorption/emission??
mechanical??? quantum???
If you can figure out what made the effect or how it was made then the analysis of the effects should be easier.
Cheng, Huang, and Lu

I could not open that pdf without paying

Off topic
There a lot of people studying materials.
http://cst-www.nrl.navy.mil/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...cffb47c2f9d432f
Spatial anisotropy of photoelastic and acoustooptic properties in β-BaB2O4 crystals

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5339324-description.html
Laser beam generator including automatic resonator length control

jal
Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, TRoc, "THEY" and "THEY 2", Yquantum, Duality, Jal, Confused2 et al,

QUOTE (Jal+)
Darn it.... not that eye .... close the one with the theory
Let's not forget .... it's the crystal making the pattern.
How?
diffraction??? absorption/emission??
mechanical??? quantum???
If you can figure out what made the effect or how it was made then the analysis of the effects should be easier.
Smoke and mirrors Jal... Smoke and mirrors! Nothing to do with Quantum Mechanics etc... the effect you see here is the same one you have in a "Music Hall"... your "awe" and the way it is presented makes for mystery and so you put it all down to "Science Magic".... This is a "game".... So I will tell you the "secret", something no real Magician would ever do...
http://www.tongue-twister.net/mr/physics/bbo_photo.htm
User posted image
The so called picture of the entangled photons is a fair bit more involved than you are being shown and all your attempts to understand it need a little "assistance". The key to this partially "classic" picture is in as much of what is not said as in what actually is said. Firstly this image is not a picture of a photon(s)... it is an interference pattern and is the result of an an Airy Disk plus an effect created by an interference filter with a narrow pass window (5nm). The next issue that is not spoken of but must be inferred is that the authors of the image left out one crucial bit of information.... there was an added component in the optical setup to "bend" the Extraordinary and the Ordinary rays (each of which carry one component of the down-converted pair of photons) away from each other so they do not contribute to only one interference pattern. This way you are able to see two separate patterns as seen in the image above (click on it).

You will already realize there is a "problem" since the two photons originate from the same point in the crystal and will propagate in the same general direction except the special BBO crystal has the double refraction polarization dependent property that also occur in other materials such as Iceland Spar. You must deflect each away from the other to distinguish them. To do this the laser must be diverged immediately after the BBO crystal similar to an Iceland Spar Crystal... the BBO crystal has that property. The ordinary ray will go directly through the crystal and the extraordinary ray will be "bent" away from the ordinary ray in the form of a "double image" of the source (this is not suitable). Each of these images should be displaced from the straight through path symmetrically to produce this symmetric result seen in the images. Each pattern created by the special interference filter will then form its own separate Airy Disk (well known to all Amateur Astronomers and also to Forum followers of this thread already). To produce the nice images seen, the ordinary ray must be deviated to one side of the straight through path by having a small angle set in BBO Crystal stage to cause the Ordinary Image to fall, say, left of center while the other Extraordinary Image falls right of center (symmetrically). Now we have the right geometry. Ignoring all the cut-off filters in this chain of "red herrings", the next most important fact is now the interference filters (used one at a time to expose "plates") which are used to individually produce each of the three interference Airy Ring images at the three different spatial wave numbers but using the one set of photons (702nm).

There is one Interference Filter (IF) centered on 702nm, an Interference Filter with 5nm bandwidth. This is matched to the center frequency of the wave packets of the down-converted photons. The center of the Airy Disk is suppressed by the act of deflecting the Ordinary ray to one side (this does not change the wavelength of light but it does change the path length of the "ray"... the wavenumber through the interference filter stack... which are successive resonant optical chambers that suppress all frequencies through standing waves except the "cut" frequency very strongly). 5nm band width means this is a "very impressive" IF stack. The interference stack is marked for the perpendicular frequency that will work most efficiently for normally incident light at the marked temporal frequency. This has only a 5nm tolerance so the spatial deflection of the ordinary ray by some small angle will suppress the primary central airy disk (destructively) but will pass all subsequent higher order disks.

Please note the errors in interpretation people make (we have been involved in some of these discussions earlier in this thread)... this does not change any frequency in the light that composes the wave-packets but the path length through the interference filter is increased by more than 5 nm by the deflection (diagonal paths) and thus causes cancellation of the primary zeroth order airy disk. This is a wave number effect due to diagonal path through the stack. The center of the Airy disk, which is the most important one to Astronomers, is then totally suppressed when it passes through the interference filter because of the angle of its diagonal path through it (diagonals are longer than normals to the filter so paths that are not equal to multiples of 702 nm are all canceled and only paths that equal multiples of 702 nm do pass. Its wave number has not changed (nor has the temporal frequency of light) so the reinforcement zones will now occur for the next 2π zone in the Airy sequence. This leaves an "empty" or "hollow" exposed Airy circle surrounded by more larger diameter Airy circles (not seen in these pictures) displaced to one side, concentric about the center of the deflected Ordinary Ray Beam (which has no zeroth order Airy Disk due to the path lengthening through the interference filter along a diagonal). The Extraordinary Ray is similarly deflected to the opposite side of the straight through path of the interference filter. Both reinforcement zones form symmetric concentric circles about the diverged centers of the left and right plane polarized beams at a distance from the center of the beam that are symmetrically 2π radians as measured in the light frequency units as path lengths. Since the center frequency of the Interference filter is specially made to coincide with the exact frequency of the down converted photons, the radius of both circles created by the Ordinary and the Extraordinary rays are the same and represents the same Airy number, they happily have the same radial size on the "plate". Repeating...The central Airy Disk in both E and O beams are suppressed by the increased path length about the center of the disk and only other orders (specifically the next order) are seen.
User posted image

Now coming to the identical geometrical situation with different interference filters cut 22 nm above and below the critical frequency still with a 5nm pass band (this last point is very important). The same effect occurs. The only issue is that we are starting below the exact interference frequency and (θs + θi)/2 deviation for one beam and θi/2 for the other and still cannot have a primary Airy disk since the shortest distance is shorter than the spatial wave length through the filter. The E and O ray beams are deflected more for one one of the beams than the other so we see two different Airy disks of different orders. Still no zeroth order but we have 2π... the first order and 4π... the second order disks (the higher deviated one) which are at the different angles for both deflected beams, the E Ray and the O Ray as you must recall are "deflected" to suppress the zeroth order Airy Disk and to symmetrically place the images on the "plate". It is just the 1st and 2nd order patterns are different radii due to different deflections for each component. This gives this pattern...
User posted image
and for the "longer" interference filter we have a similar but visually reversed situation...
User posted image
The last trick is to color and superimpose the images of the separate plates appropriately to suggest the effects of the different cut-off frequencies and orders of Airy Disk. There is no "entanglement" able to be shown with such simple setups just interference through a small aperature and here to visually suggest of "something more"... You need a much better "system" to actually show the physical entanglement. Is this "iconic" or indicative of the "moronic"... the audience who want "magic"? I firmly believe it is the latter, people really do not want to know "more" and prefer "magic".. all the photograph shows are two divergent conjugately polarized beams of light.
User posted image
Click on image for enlargement...

No magic but not well explained... quite on purpose. If you have been following the optical argument this has always been the answer to this problem and it is "semi-classical" without any Quantum Mechanical mumbo jumbo. This is a "Magician's Trick". No smoke but a lot of "mirrors"... To understand the psychological thinking and "presentation" behind this "magic" you should all invest some of your "research dollars" into watching "The Prestige" and you will learn something about what constitutes a good magical trick, "good science" and what constitutes a bad Magic Trick and why "Magicians never reveal their secrets". He he he!

Jal... you are the exception and you really want to know the secret, and you deserve, it but what of the others??? biggrin.gif

Some more background reading...
Spontaneous parametric down conversion
Wikipedia: Wavenumbers
http://www.falstad.com/diffraction/
"A Friendship, That Became a Rivalry...A Rivalry, That Became a Battle.
Are You Watching Closely?"
"The Prestige"
If you want to "ruin" a perfectly good story read this... If you have seen the movie please read this to gain an insight the movie does not have...
Wikipedia: The Prestige (Book and Movie "Spoiler")

Cheers
Laserlight
Jal,

QUOTE
Let's not forget .... it's the crystal making the pattern.
How?
diffraction??? absorption/emission??
mechanical??? quantum???
If you can figure out what made the effect or how it was made then the analysis of the effects should be easier.


A possible cause:

I suspect that it is the interaction of the cross-section shape of the UV laser beam
as it passes thru the oriented lattice of the crystal, like a halo effect around the moon. A form of scattering or dispersion birefringence.

Edit, GE seems to have knowedge concerning optical effects...I defer to his
expertise on the subject. But of interest.....


Optical Rotation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_rotation

Optical Rotary Dispersion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_rotatory_dispersion

Electro-optic effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_effect

Birefringence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birefringence

Pockels effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pockels_effect

cool.gif

LL
Good Elf
Hi All.... like this...

User posted image
Click on it to see a full size image...
http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/minerals/calcdref.htm
This is similar to the BBO Crystal except the e and the o rays are "entangled" and "coherent". No quantum physics in this picture or in the pictures above. It is what is "unseen" that is the important thing and "showmanship". The "real illusion" is between your ears.

Cheers... "Are You Watching Closely?"
Good Elf
Hi All,

Some more "spoilers" for Science "Magicians"...

This is quantum entanglement...

User posted image

An incoming "blue" photon is split at source by a BBO crystal into two magnetically linked "red" photons. Just like the rings in this picture. Think of these as their respective magnetic field lines propagating on the same wavefront together. When one set of the magnetic field lines (which communicate around the entire "loop" centered on the source) of one photon are "cut" and "dissipated" through contraction along its length, this induces a reciprocal orthogonal counter current in the other linked photon "flipping it" into the opposite state through Lenz's Law (perhaps they were "always" in opposite states right from the start). The speed of communicating is infinite along the transverse direction.

Here is a picture of the magnetic field lines in an ideal dipole source to help visualize...
User posted image
Click to enlarge...
Wikipedia: Lenz's Law
Blue lines are the magnetic field lines... black/red lines are the electric field lines. This is what the "iconic" image is suppose to "convey" but of course it cannot. You can't take pictures of the magnetic fields of individual propagating photons.

Gee... I guess this trick has lost some of its gloss now? Maybe I shouldn't have told? biggrin.gif Perhaps I will lose my membership in the Magicians Guild eh? sad.gif

Remember folks never tell your audience the secret otherwise you will lose your "Wizard" status. They want to be "fooled" .... lets keep it that way since that is where all the funding really is... in tricks and presentation.

However I have some "real magic" if you really want to know... He he he!

Cheers
Confused2
Hi All,

Of http://www.tongue-twister.net/mr/physics/bbo_photo.htm

I like most of Good Elf's explanation a lot.

Of the creation of lower frequencies .. I don't think we have sufficient evidence to say how they are formed

Here is a highly magical explanation of the the photon pair generation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_p...down_conversion
one might guess that energy considerations suggest it cannot happen without an additional input from 'outside'.

While Good Elf claims lower frequencies can be created 'classically' I am not aware of any precedent for this ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_harmonic_distortion ). The process of 'parametric downconversion' generally involves the deliberate introduction of a second frequency .. the output is then a series of sums and differences which give the desired 'downconversion'. In the case of the BBO there doesn't seem to be a second frequency .. hence (perhaps) the need to introduce 'vacuum fluctuations' in the (admittedly) 'magical' explanation..

Of evidence for 'entanglement' - I'm not sure which bit of the result is supposed to be the proof of entanglement.

Best wishes,

-C2.
Good Elf
Hi Confused2,

QUOTE (Confused2+)
Of evidence for 'entanglement' - I'm not sure which bit of the result is supposed to be the proof of entanglement.
Evidence for entanglement comes from Bells Inequality experiment as it should. The "photo" does not "prove" anything about the source being entangled other than the source is the same one used in other entanglement experiments. Is that what you mean? What is seen is a "blue" photon going in and two "red" photons coming out which are orthogonally polarized.

The actual "splitting" of photons must occur inside the BBO crystal lattice and the way the UV photon excites a part of the lattice structure into resonant harmonic secondary "quadrupolar radiation" (a standing wave non-linear oscillation) resulting in two correlated orthogonal dipolar radiation fields in the source, each one at 1/2 the input frequency. This leads to linked or entangled photons. In all other respects it is just "double refraction" as stated in the learned article referenced previously when it says "The image of the grid paper will appear double in the direction of this line. This double image is similar to the one produced by a calcite crystal." Down Conversion

Highly efficient "sourceless" RF or microwave correlated sources may be possibly "constructed" with appropriately manufactured quadrupolar antennas or arrays.

Cheers
Confused2
Hi Good Elf et al,

Of the picture where the filter matches half the input wavelength we see two rings of aprroxiamtely equal size and brightness .. 50-50 distrubution of energy and probabilty in either zone? If yes then (not surprisingly) we see an extra bright bit where the rings overlap simply because there are twice as many photons.

The problem comes in the small ring/big ring pictures .. conservation of momentum suggests that if one photon is of higher frequency then the other photon should be of lower frequency - I'm not sure of a classical analogue for this. Regardless..

Is the big ring the same frequency as the small ring? .. ie the 'other' photon is outside the passband of the filter .. this is an act of faith .. I don't know the answer.

IF (and only if) the unequal rings are both within the passband of the filter and the 'other photon' is outside the passband of the filter then there should be no bright bit where they intersect .. one or the other photon but not both. We see a nice bright bit where the rings intersect. THAT (might) be what they are trying to show us. ???

I could well be wrong.

-C2.

Laserlight
Guys,

What happens when you add high energy to a crystal lattice??? You generate
secondary emitted photons at the frequency of the crystal atomic structure and IR
photons in the form of HEAT from atomic excitation. Are the rings nothing more
than internal atomic heat (IR) dissipation radiating from the edges of the applied
long duration light "stream" as it refracts and disperses thru the crystal lattice?

We know that the BBO crystal lattice generates second+ order harmonics due
to its polarizing process/orientation. Won't each harmonic also generate a heat component (IR)?
Seems like conservation of energy to me. All energy applied to the crystal must
radiate from it in one form or another. The excitation of the atomic lattice
is doing some localized thermal expansion radiating from the periphery of the
harmonic component of the beams along the polarization orientation of the lattice.
A wave of the hands....

Voila!!......light rings!

Does that work?

blink.gif
LL
jal
good day ALL!

Good Day Good Elf!
Anyone who has posted a long post knows how much work that you put into your posts. Thanks!
Like C2 … I liked your explanation of what made the “circles”. If there is disagreement on your evaluation … your post is not going away… and someone will pick up on it and reopen the discussion.
I’m satisfied that it took more than 2 photons to make the circles.
The dynamic crystals structure just makes the photons leave the crystal at different angles which results in the “picture” on the film.
QUOTE
all the photograph shows are two divergent conjugately polarized beams of light….
You need a much better "system" to actually show the physical entanglement.


Moving on or I should say moving back in time …. Heheh …. When I was a child I used to use our flashlights/torch to make those circles. I usually got into trouble for “wasting" the batteries.
Moving again ….
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
all the photograph shows are two divergent conjugately polarized beams of light….
You need a much better "system" to actually show the physical entanglement.


Moving on or I should say moving back in time …. Heheh …. When I was a child I used to use our flashlights/torch to make those circles. I usually got into trouble for “wasting" the batteries.
Moving again ….
Experiments done by thousands of students with light ….
Classical mechanics is deterministic, quantum mechanics is probabilistic. But
for all its disturbing aspects, quantum mechanics has survived the test of time
to become the most successful physical theory ever invented!

After reading over the links/experiments provided …. I could feel the weirdness … hehehe
Moving on again …..
I still want to dig deeper and find answers.
I do not have to work with the calculations so I’m asking questions.
Now …. I’m not giving anyone a license to go off the deep end with another explanation of their theory …. Let’s keep looking at the experiments.
If we don’t understand and get someone’s feathers ruffled … then that someone will pick up on it and reopen the discussion.
Checking the thread …. I see that there are still questions that have not been answered ... hehehe
QUOTE
… Evidence for entanglement comes from Bells Inequality experiment as it should…

I want to come back to this later.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
… Evidence for entanglement comes from Bells Inequality experiment as it should…

I want to come back to this later.
…The actual "splitting" of photons must occur inside the BBO crystal lattice….

QUOTE
….. Are the rings nothing more than internal atomic heat (IR) dissipation radiating from the edges of the applied
long duration light "stream" as it refracts and disperses thru the crystal lattice?....

I think that I also made a question hehehe Let’s me put in the form of a question hehehe
Could The dynamic crystals structure just makes the photons leave the crystal at different angles which results in the “picture” on the film?
jal smile.gif
Confused2
Hi jal,

Eric might be the man of the moment..

http://web.mit.edu/edauler/www/research.html

Best wishes,

-C2.
Laserlight
Good Elf, Jal, C2, and Everyone else involved with the rings discussion.

We have drifted off topic, however. I think I must question some of the
analysis of the effect.

1st - The film is only recording the infrared (IR) component of the polarized beams. This does not account for "fairy" ring internal filter reflections due to the
frequencies involved, those should be UV components and be filtered out.

2nd - the bandpass of the IR filters insures that only infrared photons (there are
billions of them, not just 2 photons) get passed and exposed on the film.

3rd - The IR energy components are sub harmonics which each bandpass filter
passes discretely. Each color ring is a separate harmonic of the primary which
have been polarized. The size of each ring should be able to verify this when
compared to the size of each frequency ring above or below it in its same
polarization orientation.

In my opinion (and it could be wrong) there are 3 harmonic IR rings in each
"phase" orientation. The center ring is the 2nd order IR harmonic, the middle
ring is the 3rd order IR harmonic, and the outer ring is the 4th order IR harmonic.
If there was another IR filter it would have shown the 5th order IR harmonic, IMO.

User posted image

Other opinions, technical analysis, comments welcome.

cool.gif
LL
Laserlight
Jal,

QUOTE
Could The dynamic crystals structure just makes the photons leave the crystal at different angles which results in the “picture” on the film?


Isn't that how polarization works, by changing the phase relationship?

Keep in mind the film is only detecting the IR components being emitted/radiated.
I am contending that we are seeing the sub-harmonic orders of the emitted IR
photons.

Comments?

LL
Confused2
Hi LL, GE, jal et al,

Looking at the movie..
http://physics.nist.gov/Divisions/Div844/f...Type2Movie.html

My impression is that either Eric is wrong or you get a range of frequencies in the photons such that E_1 + E_2 = E_original . The range of frequencies suggests to me that the effect is 'photon based' (magic) and does not rely on any obvious classical process.

Best wishes C2.
Laserlight
Hi C2 and All,

Per the discussion of the QT movie:

QUOTE
each photon of a pair is emitted into separate, nonconcentric and orthogonally polarized output cones of light. See how the output light cones change as the crystal optic axis varies. The curves at the bottom show the wavelength of the PDC light as a function of its output angle.


They are varying the crystal orientation angle relative to the "observer", which
in this "experiment" follows what GE was stating in his analysis of the BBO
experiment. In that experiment they never indicated that they were changing
the orientation of the crystal angle, they did have the UV filter set at an angle
as an anti-reflective (AR) method but indicated that it was stationary in its
setting.

In the description quoted above, the output angle of the crystal determines the
size of the radiated light cones.

Regards,
LL

Confused2
Hi LL,

In the movie.. are we not seeing photons of all wavelengths regardless of the angle of the BBO?

-C2.

Edit .. not 'all' but a continuous distribution
Laserlight
C2,

I think we are only seeing the simulated IR of the full transmitted beam in 2
polarized cones.

They comment:
False color was used for the simulated image to map the 0.6 µm to 1.2 µm wavelength range into the visible

So it appears that the light ranges from 600 to 1200 nm, in the infrared range.
We are seeing all of the radiated IR photons.

LL
Confused2
LL,

My interpretation is that you always get a range of (IR) frequencies .. the angle of the cone depends on the frequency (and the orientation of the BBO).

With increasing frequency above 700nm the angle of the cone increases (big circle) and the angle of the other decreases (liitle circle) and vice versa for below 700nm.

Hence big circle/little circle seen with a filter selecting for a particular wavelength.

Looks like the angle of the BBO in the experiment was set so that with a 700nm filter both cones/angles were (roughly) the same sixe

??

-C2.
Good Elf
Hi Confused2,

QUOTE (Confused2+)
Of the picture where the filter matches half the input wavelength we see two rings of approximately equal size and brightness .. 50-50 distribution of energy and probability in either zone? If yes then (not surprisingly) we see an extra bright bit where the rings overlap simply because there are twice as many photons.

The problem comes in the small ring/big ring pictures .. conservation of momentum suggests that if one photon is of higher frequency then the other photon should be of lower frequency - I'm not sure of a classical analogue for this. Regardless..
If you persist in speaking about "probability" when we are only looking at classical effects, you will be unable to make any sense of this. The issues is purely 'classical" and related to Airy Disks. One of the two images is a first order Airy Disk the other is a second order Airy Disk. The "zeroth" order Airy disk is suppressed through tilting the beam away from the normal.
user posted image
This picture shows "all" Airy Disks. The zeroth order Airy Disk is the one in the center... this has been suppressed by the interference filter with the 5nm cut-off. Read up on Interference Filters and how they work. What we are seeing are the first order Airy disk for one deflected polarization beam and the second order Airy disk for the other oppositely deflected polarization beam. There are only one set of photons and they are all 702 nm in wavelength. This problem has come up before and you didn't get the point then either. What is happening is the path through a tilted Interference Filter increases the path by the length along the diagonal. IF are resonant cavities but they will only form constructive interference if the paths are multiples of integer wavelengths along the 'diagonals". This results in the Airy disk(s)... It is in the setup of the optical bench. you are confusing the difference between wavenumbers and wavelength and this is not helping the matter. The wavelength (and also the frequency of photons) remains fixed for photons from the entangled sources. It is 702 nm. The "beams" are diverged into an E ray and an O ray as per their diagram which I showed in my explanation. This is the same effect as in calcite (as they also say). If you have had some experience with these materials you will realize that the O Ray goes straight through a normally incident crystal resulting in no deflection. To get this result you need deflection.... this you put into the BBO crystal stage (see the theory). Thus the E ray and O ray are both separately deflected through different angles and the primary Airy Disk is "suppressed" by the slanting path the light executes through the Interference Filter.

Cheers
Good Elf
Ho Confused2, Laserlight et al,

Continuing:
The rest of your analysis is OK. The intersection of the two separate Airy Disks lead to overexposure at these points. The cut on the Interference Filters is 5nm which is a very highly tuned cavity. This means the Airy Disks are very narrow and crisp with defined edges. The Airy Disks in the image above are simple pinhole in a card type of Airy Disk image. The distance between Airy Disks are a function of the Aperture size.

I suggest everyone actually read the documentation that comes with all this and understand it first. Then you will see that this is exactly what it is saying.

Have a look here regarding Interference Filters.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...intfilt.html#c1
From a diverging beam through an aperture the Air Disks are formed from the "tilted" primary beams of left and right polarized photons all of 702nm. There are no others of interest... other frequencies are all removed with a barrage of blocking filters.

Do not be confused by the "markings" on an interference filter they are used to provide these effects defined by "normally incident light"(this is not the case here since the E and O ray have both been deflected. IF's work with all nearby frequencies.... that most certainly included 702nm creating those Airy Disks.

For example using the calculator provided in that page a 722nm IF at an angle of 18.4 degrees passed 702.02nm. If this is allowed to inscribe a circle of 1/2 conic angle of 18.4 degrees you get an Airy Disk around a point from which it diverges.

Cheers
Laserlight
Hi GE,

QUOTE
The Airy Disks in the image above are simple pinhole in a card type of Airy Disk image. The distance between Airy Disks are a function of the Aperture size.


So we are seeing interference rings with dark areas of "cancellation" as in
a single slit Fraunhofer Defraction Geometry experiment?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

See the "Single Slit Peak Intensities" window under "Intensity for Single Slit"
topic.

LL



TRoc
Hi all,


Yikes! This is so hard to decipher between the independent, specialized model perspectives. At this point, I am still not sure of Jal's question, or to anybodies attempt at answering it.

Jal
QUOTE
Could The dynamic crystals structure just makes the photons leave the crystal at different angles which results in the “picture” on the film?


Was this the original question, or a new one? Isn't birefringence enough to explain that?


I find it hard to believe that I'm having a conversation with the same people who argued that "photons don't interact". I could not figure out anyones' position then, and I find nothing definitive in these last rounds of posts.


I agree with GE's rant several pages back, about the "cult" aspects of modern Physics. I also agree with his last post about the "selling of magic" that seems to go on, especially in the "generic" wording that loosens up translations to the point of watering down any "truth" an experiment might contain.

I'll say again, that I don't want to replace one "magic" with another. I also will not leave any "magic" that is currently in place lie undisturbed.


Again, ALL these links are good: everybody is able to establish that their particular "specialized" look is valid.

I am trying to say that they are equivalent. Get rid of the redundant terminology, the 1-discovery-at-a-time compartmentalization that has built up like plaque on the smile of Physics.

The road to Unification will be paved with Simplification, and a Unified approach. This conversation (everybody in it) is a good example of the different approaches that exist in Science. I believe that we MUST look at what is the SAME in these different approaches, rather that point out the differences, and end up arguing semantics.


All I can say is the same thing I keep saying. In the context of "quantum weirdness" the DSE falls apart. The definitions and assumptions that have stemmed from 100 years of the rhetoric, and the inability to find the answers to the problems, have clearly evolved to BELIEF.


A SINGLE "photon" is what happens when ONE electron is raised a SINGLE state, and then relaxes down. WHEN we are able to ISOLATE and CONTROL a SINGLE ATOM, and a SINGLE electron (at both ends), we will be able to say that we are measuring a single "photon".


Rather than write "my" version, I'll just quote reputable sources, and put things I've already said in BOLD.


http://physics.nist.gov/Divisions/Div844/f...hotonSource.htm
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Could The dynamic crystals structure just makes the photons leave the crystal at different angles which results in the “picture” on the film?


Was this the original question, or a new one? Isn't birefringence enough to explain that?


I find it hard to believe that I'm having a conversation with the same people who argued that "photons don't interact". I could not figure out anyones' position then, and I find nothing definitive in these last rounds of posts.


I agree with GE's rant several pages back, about the "cult" aspects of modern Physics. I also agree with his last post about the "selling of magic" that seems to go on, especially in the "generic" wording that loosens up translations to the point of watering down any "truth" an experiment might contain.

I'll say again, that I don't want to replace one "magic" with another. I also will not leave any "magic" that is currently in place lie undisturbed.


Again, ALL these links are good: everybody is able to establish that their particular "specialized" look is valid.

I am trying to say that they are equivalent. Get rid of the redundant terminology, the 1-discovery-at-a-time compartmentalization that has built up like plaque on the smile of Physics.

The road to Unification will be paved with Simplification, and a Unified approach. This conversation (everybody in it) is a good example of the different approaches that exist in Science. I believe that we MUST look at what is the SAME in these different approaches, rather that point out the differences, and end up arguing semantics.


All I can say is the same thing I keep saying. In the context of "quantum weirdness" the DSE falls apart. The definitions and assumptions that have stemmed from 100 years of the rhetoric, and the inability to find the answers to the problems, have clearly evolved to BELIEF.


A SINGLE "photon" is what happens when ONE electron is raised a SINGLE state, and then relaxes down. WHEN we are able to ISOLATE and CONTROL a SINGLE ATOM, and a SINGLE electron (at both ends), we will be able to say that we are measuring a single "photon".


Rather than write "my" version, I'll just quote reputable sources, and put things I've already said in BOLD.


http://physics.nist.gov/Divisions/Div844/f...hotonSource.htm
As currently implemented, single-photon sources cannot be made to produce single photons with high probability, while simultaneously suppressing the probability of yielding two or more photons. Because of this, single photon sources cannot really produce single photons on demand.


This is NOW; This is NIST. The historic interpretations are INVALID.


http://web.mit.edu/edauler/www/research.html
QUOTE
Entangled Photons

A laser incident on a birefringent crystal is intense enough so that non-linear effects lead to the spontaneous emission of pairs of photons. The conditions this process must obey are the conservation of energy and momentum, which is also known as phase-matching. The conservation of energy constraint requires the frequency (which is proportional to the energy) of the two output photons to equal that of the laser's input photon. The constraint from the conservation of momentum is more complicated because the velocity of the photons depends on the index of refraction within the crystal. Since the crystal is birefringent (it has a direction or multiple directions in which the indices of refraction are different), the angle at which the output photons exit the crystal will affect their velocity and in certain cases allow momentum to be conserved. It is these cases, in which the angles of the output photons allow their total momentum to equal the original momentum, that phase-matching occurs.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Entangled Photons

A laser incident on a birefringent crystal is intense enough so that non-linear effects lead to the spontaneous emission of pairs of photons. The conditions this process must obey are the conservation of energy and momentum, which is also known as phase-matching. The conservation of energy constraint requires the frequency (which is proportional to the energy) of the two output photons to equal that of the laser's input photon. The constraint from the conservation of momentum is more complicated because the velocity of the photons depends on the index of refraction within the crystal. Since the crystal is birefringent (it has a direction or multiple directions in which the indices of refraction are different), the angle at which the output photons exit the crystal will affect their velocity and in certain cases allow momentum to be conserved. It is these cases, in which the angles of the output photons allow their total momentum to equal the original momentum, that phase-matching occurs.


The pairs of photons are produced because of a one-photon per mode background radiance that exists throughout space, including in a vacuum. An additional source of radiance can be added to stimulate further production of photons (also called down-conversion). By measuring the ratio of down-converted photons with and without the additional source, the radiance of the source, rather than just its power, can be determined.


QUOTE
Another advantage this method has, particularly for long wavelengths, is that the photons detected do not even have to be at the wavelength being measured.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Another advantage this method has, particularly for long wavelengths, is that the photons detected do not even have to be at the wavelength being measured.


Another application of entangled photons is measuring the relative delay of two photons of different polarization within a material. This delay is too small in many materials to measure electronically, so instead the quantum interference of two entangled photons can be measured.


QUOTE
Depending on the experimental setup, different interference patterns are produced. The accuracy with which the position of this pattern can be found is dependent on the length of the crystal, spectral filters and laser wavelength used for downconversion as well as the strength of the signal (See publications).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pockels_effect
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Depending on the experimental setup, different interference patterns are produced. The accuracy with which the position of this pattern can be found is dependent on the length of the crystal, spectral filters and laser wavelength used for downconversion as well as the strength of the signal (See publications).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pockels_effect
A Pockels cell, combined with a polarizer, can be used for a variety of applications. Switching between no optical rotation and 90° rotation creates a fast shutter capable of "opening" and "closing" in nanoseconds. The same technique can be used to impress information on the beam by modulating the rotation between 0° and 90°; the exiting beam's intensity, when viewed through the polarizer, contains an amplitude-modulated signal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_%28waves%29
QUOTE
..f has units of cycles per second( = 2pi radians/sec = 360°/sec), which represents the frequency of the oscillations. Frequency is defined as the rate at which the instantaneous phase changes.  ..  When the frequency of an oscillation is time invariant, then time is sometimes used (instead of angle) to express instantaneous phase.  ..  Other measures of phase are: (1) distance, and (2) fraction of the wavelength.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
..f has units of cycles per second( = 2pi radians/sec = 360°/sec), which represents the frequency of the oscillations. Frequency is defined as the rate at which the instantaneous phase changes.  ..  When the frequency of an oscillation is time invariant, then time is sometimes used (instead of angle) to express instantaneous phase.  ..  Other measures of phase are: (1) distance, and (2) fraction of the wavelength.


Phase shifting describes relative phase shift in superimposing waves. Waves may be of electromagnetic (light, RF), acoustic (sound) or other nature. By superposing waves using different phase shifts the waves can add to (0° shift = "in phase") or cancel out each other (180°).


QUOTE
Phase difference is similar to phase shift, but more likely to be applied in the context of two signals, particularly when neither is a standard reference. Two waves that have the same frequency and different initial phases, have a phase difference that is constant (independent of t).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_path_length
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Phase difference is similar to phase shift, but more likely to be applied in the context of two signals, particularly when neither is a standard reference. Two waves that have the same frequency and different initial phases, have a phase difference that is constant (independent of t).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_path_length
.. optical path length (OPL) is the product of the geometric length of the path light follows through the system, and the index of refraction of the medium through which it propagates. A difference in optical path length between two paths is often called the optical path difference (OPD). Optical path length is important because it determines the phase of the light and governs interference and diffraction of light as it propagates.


QUOTE
An electromagnetic wave that travels a path of given optical path length arrives with the same phase shift as if it had traveled a path of that physical length in a vacuum. Thus, if a wave is traveling through several different media, then the optical path length of each medium can be added to find the total optical path length. The optical path difference between the paths taken by two identical waves can then be used to find the phase change. Finally, using the phase change, the interference between the two waves can be calculated.
Fermat's principle states that the path light takes between two points is the path that has the minimum optical path length.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyot_filter
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
An electromagnetic wave that travels a path of given optical path length arrives with the same phase shift as if it had traveled a path of that physical length in a vacuum. Thus, if a wave is traveling through several different media, then the optical path length of each medium can be added to find the total optical path length. The optical path difference between the paths taken by two identical waves can then be used to find the phase change. Finally, using the phase change, the interference between the two waves can be calculated.
Fermat's principle states that the path light takes between two points is the path that has the minimum optical path length.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyot_filter
..a type of optical filter that uses birefringence to produce a narrow passband of transmitted wavelengths.


QUOTE
..(in multi-plate filters) each plate being half the thickness of the previous one. Because the plates are birefringent, light traveling through them is split into two rays (the ordinary and extraordinary rays), each experiencing a different refractive index and thus having a different phase velocity.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
..(in multi-plate filters) each plate being half the thickness of the previous one. Because the plates are birefringent, light traveling through them is split into two rays (the ordinary and extraordinary rays), each experiencing a different refractive index and thus having a different phase velocity.


Only wavelengths at which the ordinary and extraordinary rays have optical path lengths equal to an integer multiple of the wavelength exit the plates in the same polarization state as they entered the plates.


QUOTE
Although their mechanisms are different, modelocking lasers and Lyot-filter lasers both produce a comb of multiple wavelengths ..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birefringence
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Although their mechanisms are different, modelocking lasers and Lyot-filter lasers both produce a comb of multiple wavelengths ..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birefringence
Birefringence, or double refraction, is the decomposition of a ray of light into two rays (the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray) when it passes through certain types of material..


QUOTE
Birefringence is widely used in optical devices, such as liquid crystal displays, light modulators, color filters, wave plates, optical axis gratings, etc. It also plays important role in second harmonic generation and many other nonlinear processes.




regards,

T.Roc



Laserlight
Hi TRoc,

QUOTE
I find it hard to believe that I'm having a conversation with the same people who argued that "photons don't interact". I could not figure out anyones' position then, and I find nothing definitive in these last rounds of posts.


Here we again...LOL! laugh.gif

I think we all agree that light waves (rays) do interact in the context of a steady
stream of continuous cyclical energy wave cycles. These can be identified as
constructive or destructive interference as energy waves interact in a phase relationship.

I believe that we were arguing that individual discrete "entity" photons do not interact because they are self contained unto themselves. That refers to your
definition of a single photon being:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I find it hard to believe that I'm having a conversation with the same people who argued that "photons don't interact". I could not figure out anyones' position then, and I find nothing definitive in these last rounds of posts.


Here we again...LOL! laugh.gif

I think we all agree that light waves (rays) do interact in the context of a steady
stream of continuous cyclical energy wave cycles. These can be identified as
constructive or destructive interference as energy waves interact in a phase relationship.

I believe that we were arguing that individual discrete "entity" photons do not interact because they are self contained unto themselves. That refers to your
definition of a single photon being:

A SINGLE "photon" is what happens when ONE electron is raised a SINGLE state, and then relaxes down. WHEN we are able to ISOLATE and CONTROL a SINGLE ATOM, and a SINGLE electron (at both ends), we will be able to say that we are measuring a single "photon".


If we were to perfectly inversely phase 2 opposing continuous laser beams, would they
cancel each other out? If so, where does the canceled energy go?


Do we really want to go there again? biggrin.gif

Regards,
LL
Good Elf
Hi Laserlight and Confused2, Jal et al,
QUOTE

Hi GE,



QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Hi GE,



The Airy Disks in the image above are simple pinhole in a card type of Airy Disk image. The distance between Airy Disks are a function of the Aperture size. So we are seeing interference rings with dark areas of "cancellation" as in
a single slit Fraunhofer Diffraction Geometry experiment?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

See the "Single Slit Peak Intensities" window under "Intensity for Single Slit"
topic.

LL
Put a question clearly and indicate what you want from them instead of forcing me to "guess" without much luck. We are not talking "slits" here we are talking "apertures" .... "circular" slits if you like. It is fraunhofer diffraction through an "aperture".The source of this light must be diverged and is no longer incident normally on the Interference Crystal. See their illustration.

This picture shows how the diverged beams (not planar beams) have "tilted" the Ordinary ray away from the normal. That will increase the slant path of the O ray sufficiently to remove the zeroth Airy Ring... the one in the middle. It only needs a 5nm path lengthening to do that to completely suppress it.
User posted image
The middle bright opaque disk will appear when you have a single source of light incident normally on a Interference Filter matched to the primary frequency. Tilt the crystal stage and that disk disappears. Both the E and the O ray cones of illumination are both tilted away from the normal by 1/2 the total angle between them to produce the rings. The bending of the E ray is due to the different refractive index of the rays along that direction of the crystal axis.

My understanding of these experiments is that you cannot have correlated photons that are each different in frequency. That means that each correlated photon is the same frequency as the other. I have no idea just what NIST is trying to say there. Parametric down-conversion producing entanglement involve "splitting" a single UV photon into two IR photons of the same frequency. All the sources (other than this particular NIST source you referred to) refer to two photons at "exactly" the same frequency and this frequency is each exactly 1/2 the primary frequency. This is by design and is an essential part of the experiment. There are no "thermal losses" in these entangled photon sources. My suggestion is this information is general information about what happens when you down-convert UV photons from a single source through a BBO crystal in general. The angle of the crystal can split the photons up into unequal packets (maybe one red and one blue for instance) but only equal packets will produce "entanglement" and that will occur at a pretty sharp "edge". What do you think? No claim about entanglement was made, just down conversion. Tunable lasers have been around for some time and this is the way you can do it by splitting the photons up into unequal fractions with a BBO? crystal and passing the light through a conventional prism giving you all the pretty colors. In that sense the article is only marginally related to the discussion. We should stay with entangled photons.

Assuming what I am saying is right, the double refraction treats the different frequencies of light differently ... by how much in BBO crystals I do not know but it seems it is quite a bit dispersing the frequencies over a spectrum as would occur with an ordinary prism. This is naturally an non-linear effect we can all appreciate. The entangled photons at a single frequency would necessarily be the one true resonant state in the crystal where photons are split symmetrically. This will produce the narrowest band of frequencies possible. Obviously there may be a residual spread at this "minimum" but many of the "spread" photons will constitute noise since the useful photons will need to be 100% entangled.

Cheers
Confused2
QUOTE (LL+)
I think we all agree that light waves (rays) do interact in the context of a steady stream of continuous cyclical energy wave cycles. These can be identified as constructive or destructive interference as energy waves interact in a phase relationship.


ohmy.gif

Just because it may be dfficult to show that something is true does not prove that it is false.

Of single photon generation..
Single-photon detector characterization using correlated
photons: the march from feasibility to metrology


http://physics.nist.gov/Divisions/Div844/p...e_metrology.pdf

QUOTE

Spontaneous parametric down-conversion [1–3] (PDC) provides the most convenient source of correlated photons for detector calibration. In the downconversion process, a nonlinear crystal allows photons from a pump laser to be converted into pairs of photons under the constraints of energy and momentum conservation,
wp  = w1 + w2
kp  = k1 + k2
where wp and kp are the frequency and wave vector of the pump, and wi and ki
(i = 1, 2) refer to a pair of down-converted output photons


The above is the physics of particles and snooker tables .. no more, no less. Strangely it seems pumped BBO type II sources at NIST obey this rule (somewhat modified by the birefringent nature of the crystal) - it less easy to know what is going on elsewhere. Observer dependence?.. wishful thinking? .. who knows.

A non-BBO experiment..
http://www.roxanne.org/epr/experiment.html

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Spontaneous parametric down-conversion [1–3] (PDC) provides the most convenient source of correlated photons for detector calibration. In the downconversion process, a nonlinear crystal allows photons from a pump laser to be converted into pairs of photons under the constraints of energy and momentum conservation,
wp  = w1 + w2
kp  = k1 + k2
where wp and kp are the frequency and wave vector of the pump, and wi and ki
(i = 1, 2) refer to a pair of down-converted output photons


The above is the physics of particles and snooker tables .. no more, no less. Strangely it seems pumped BBO type II sources at NIST obey this rule (somewhat modified by the birefringent nature of the crystal) - it less easy to know what is going on elsewhere. Observer dependence?.. wishful thinking? .. who knows.

A non-BBO experiment..
http://www.roxanne.org/epr/experiment.html

The source consists of excited calcium atoms which have a valence electron in the 4p2 1S0 state. Notice that the calcium atom's valence electron has been placed into an excited state where it has no net angular momentum (L = 0). As the atom de-excites, the electron cascades into the 4s4p 1P1 state and releases a green photon at 551.3 nm. This state then decays back to the 4s2 1S0 state releasing a blue photon at 422.7 nm. Because the total angular momentum at the beginning and end of the cascade is zero, the two photons emitted must each have opposite angular momentum and thus the two photons must be circularly polarized in opposite directions. The filters in figure 1 only allow the transmission of one of the two colors. Thus, these filters guarantee that emitted photon pairs travel to opposite detectors such that the green photons go along path A and the blue photons go along path B.


Again the physics of the snooker table dictate matching of (angular) momentum. The EPR experiment as described is inherently performed with photons of different frequencies (energies).

I don't seem able to see the stream of continuous cyclical energy in quite the same way as everyone else. In fairness I didn't expect it to be quite that simple.

Best wishes, C2.

jal
Good day ALL!
TRoc, my questions are being slowly answered. My model is helping me focus on the harder questions that are being sought in this thread. In the end it does not matter if my model is wrong or right. I’m searching for an answer…. How is the universe made/works.
I’ll use someone else words from a link provided by C2.
http://www.roxanne.org/epr/end.html
QUOTE
Where does this leave us? Well, there are two main points which we should take away from this. First, reality is not what it might appear to be. Although we may want to disbelieve Quantum Mechanics because it is too bizzarre, nature seems to come out in favor of it. Secondly, we should focus our attentions not on testing Quantum Mechanics as we have done here, but rather on studying how non-locality and non-separabilty might impact Relativity and our concepts of nature.

I want to add the following:
(Can we take a step backward?)
3. What we have is ONE MEASURING STICK. The speed of light.
4. What we have are problems that arise because of the way we measure (with experiments) what a photon is doing.
5. We do not have a clear/exact definition of a photon. This is reflected in the way we describe it. (Wave-like, particle-like, point-like, and even infinite)
That is a big big problem.
TRoc, your approach, might be a way out of the box that we find ourselves unable to get out.
I would like to investigate how a photon gets defined with your approach.
Can you download or give a link to a spreadsheet of your number crunching?
jal
TRoc
Hi all,



LL,

QUOTE
I believe that we were arguing that individual discrete "entity" photons do not interact because they are self contained unto themselves. That refers to your definition of a single photon..


The reason I "went there again" is because (as Jal also mentioned) this "conversation" will not get anywhere without the RE-DEFINING of what the term "photon" means. The historical "narrowing down" of the slits won't produce "single photons", and neither will "chopping up a laser beam".

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I believe that we were arguing that individual discrete "entity" photons do not interact because they are self contained unto themselves. That refers to your definition of a single photon..


The reason I "went there again" is because (as Jal also mentioned) this "conversation" will not get anywhere without the RE-DEFINING of what the term "photon" means. The historical "narrowing down" of the slits won't produce "single photons", and neither will "chopping up a laser beam".

If we were to perfectly inversely phase 2 opposing continuous laser beams, would they cancel each other out? If so, where does the canceled energy go?


No. You will burn up lasers, though. wink.gif


QUOTE
UV frequency is about 10^14 Hz , E per photon about 10^14 x 10^-34 = 10^-20 J , 100mW laser is 0.1 J/sec so 0.1/ (10^-20) = 10^19
If we get 1 entangled pair out per 10^6 photons in we get 10^13 pairs per second (oodles!)
Best wishes, -C2.


As C2 says here, THERE ARE 10^19 "photons" per second from the laser. Where do THEY all go? That is the question someone needs to answer.

Don't forget: the laser is NOT entirely monochromatic either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochrome
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
UV frequency is about 10^14 Hz , E per photon about 10^14 x 10^-34 = 10^-20 J , 100mW laser is 0.1 J/sec so 0.1/ (10^-20) = 10^19
If we get 1 entangled pair out per 10^6 photons in we get 10^13 pairs per second (oodles!)
Best wishes, -C2.


As C2 says here, THERE ARE 10^19 "photons" per second from the laser. Where do THEY all go? That is the question someone needs to answer.

Don't forget: the laser is NOT entirely monochromatic either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochrome
In physics, the word is used more generally to refer to electromagnetic radiation of a single wavelength. In the physical sense, no real source of electromagnetic radiation is purely monochromatic, since that would require a wave of infinite duration. Even sources such as lasers have some narrow range of wavelengths (known as the linewidth or bandwidth of the source) within which they operate.


From the topic at hand:

QUOTE
681nm, 702nm, and 725nm interference filters


Are these FILTERS of frequencies, or PRODUCERS of new frequencies? Doesn't PRODUCING a single frequency require a single electron transition?

WHY would these "filters" work at all, IF there were not OTHER FREQUENCIES PRESENT? This is a "702nm" laser: if there are no other "photon" frequencies present, then what is being filtered? Take another look, if you need to, at the manufacturers' specifications of ANY filters that you can find. They do NOT narrow it "cleanly" down to ONE frequency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_%28optics%29
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
681nm, 702nm, and 725nm interference filters


Are these FILTERS of frequencies, or PRODUCERS of new frequencies? Doesn't PRODUCING a single frequency require a single electron transition?

WHY would these "filters" work at all, IF there were not OTHER FREQUENCIES PRESENT? This is a "702nm" laser: if there are no other "photon" frequencies present, then what is being filtered? Take another look, if you need to, at the manufacturers' specifications of ANY filters that you can find. They do NOT narrow it "cleanly" down to ONE frequency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_%28optics%29
An optical filter is a device which selectively transmits light having certain properties (often, a particular range of wavelengths, that is, range of colours of light), while blocking the remainder.

QUOTE
Interferential filters are manufactured by deposition of materials in layers which block some wavelengths by interference and let other wavelengths pass. These filters are sensitive to the angle of incidence of incoming light (spectral transmittance varies with angle).


The other thing, that apparently, no one realized right up front: the "media ready" 3 colored photo was NOT indicative of the real frequencies. This experiment was in THREE shades of RED. That's what I was talking about when I said this is only a 1/2 step up or down. Not enough to be a "different color".


Particles do not act this way.

C2 gave the same link (NIST) to show this NEW, preferred method of "photon" counting. This means ALL previous measurements and theories of "single photon" QM strangeness are ERROR prone. The DSE has been around a long time. Everything we are talking about (as far as trying to explain the variations in the experiment methods that have produce "strange" results) is based on the WRONG turn taken ~50 years ago (or ? yrs). It is these assumptions that mislead us today.

The laser BEAM is superimposed frequencies ("photons"). MEASURING them independently would REQUIRE the same number of detectors (electrons) to ALSO exist "in the same place and time"; THIS is IMPOSSIBLE (Exclusion Principle).

One electron CAN NOT measure TWO or more "photons", unless they are STILL the TOTAL energy that is resonant. If there is MORE energy present than is equal to the electrons' resonant state, IT (the excess energy) will NOT be measured. It gets dissipated into the lattice (matter).

When 2 equal halves combine to be resonant with a measuring electron, ONE "photon" (quanta of energy) is measured. Other evenly divisible (integers) quanta, and certain harmonic ratios, will SUM to equal the quanta being measured.

You can see that the ERRORS in counting can happen in BOTH directions. Sometimes, MORE "photons" are passing through, UNCOUNTED, and other times, these "partial photons" (beats) are not enough energy to bump the electron count.


Jal
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Interferential filters are manufactured by deposition of materials in layers which block some wavelengths by interference and let other wavelengths pass. These filters are sensitive to the angle of incidence of incoming light (spectral transmittance varies with angle).


The other thing, that apparently, no one realized right up front: the "media ready" 3 colored photo was NOT indicative of the real frequencies. This experiment was in THREE shades of RED. That's what I was talking about when I said this is only a 1/2 step up or down. Not enough to be a "different color".


Particles do not act this way.

C2 gave the same link (NIST) to show this NEW, preferred method of "photon" counting. This means ALL previous measurements and theories of "single photon" QM strangeness are ERROR prone. The DSE has been around a long time. Everything we are talking about (as far as trying to explain the variations in the experiment methods that have produce "strange" results) is based on the WRONG turn taken ~50 years ago (or ? yrs). It is these assumptions that mislead us today.

The laser BEAM is superimposed frequencies ("photons"). MEASURING them independently would REQUIRE the same number of detectors (electrons) to ALSO exist "in the same place and time"; THIS is IMPOSSIBLE (Exclusion Principle).

One electron CAN NOT measure TWO or more "photons", unless they are STILL the TOTAL energy that is resonant. If there is MORE energy present than is equal to the electrons' resonant state, IT (the excess energy) will NOT be measured. It gets dissipated into the lattice (matter).

When 2 equal halves combine to be resonant with a measuring electron, ONE "photon" (quanta of energy) is measured. Other evenly divisible (integers) quanta, and certain harmonic ratios, will SUM to equal the quanta being measured.

You can see that the ERRORS in counting can happen in BOTH directions. Sometimes, MORE "photons" are passing through, UNCOUNTED, and other times, these "partial photons" (beats) are not enough energy to bump the electron count.


Jal ..we should focus our attentions not on testing Quantum Mechanics as we have done here, but rather on studying how non-locality and non-separabilty might impact Relativity and our concepts of nature.



Non-Local and Non-Separable means NO PHOTONS. (IMO)

Just vibrating electrons interacting with other vibrating electrons, according to the principles of Resonance that I have stated. A "field" type theory, with a new, complete explanation of what is Resonance. The integer approach of QM does NOT fully explain Resonance, and that is why QM has problems explaining things in a way that makes sense.


Take the examples (in many of the papers that have come up in this thread) of the THIRD harmonic generation. How does this quantity arise? Harmonics are either DOUBLE or HALF; so how does the fundamental, according to the limited QM explanation of Resonance, explain the 1.5 lower harmonic of 3? How did the 1.5 quantity come into existence, if we are limited to integer steps?

The simple mathematical problem is this: we KNOW that the relationship between wavelength and frequency is INVERSE. Wavelengths of 20, 10, 5, 2.5 , and 1.25 are harmonics. Their frequencies would be 14,989,622.9 , 29,979,245.8 , 59,958,491.6 , 119,916,983.2 , and 239,833,966.4 . The symmetry of the integer method is broken. The singularity is NOT avoided; the integer harmonics can never reach the fundamental value of ONE. HUGE gaps exist in the frequencies, that are not present in the spectrum of the atomic elements.

Next, you turn to the RATIO method. There is a problem there too. What is the inverse of an integer fraction? 1/4 becomes 4 , 1/3 becomes 3, 1/2 becomes 2, etc. Now, the problem is this: What are the harmonics (+/-) of 1/4? 1/2 and 1/8 . Again, we are headed for problems: we can never get to (or from) ONE. Yet we KNOW that the RATIOS are important for resonance. Think of your 1/2 wave, & 1/4 wave antennae.

We need an idea (for measuring a RESONANT SYSTEM) that meets ALL of these requirements. The inverse, the ratio, and the harmonics (1/2n & 2n), AND discreet quanta.

NON-LOCAL means no "singularity"; NON-SEPARABLE means no Zero.

Our measuring system, or math, needs to avoid ONE and ZERO, FIND the harmonics, "click" in discreet quanta, and work the same in BOTH directions (inverse symmetry).

The decimal system doesn't produce this naturally. 1, 10, 20, 30 are the "harmonics" of our number system; 1, 2, 4, 8 leaves "gaps" in measurements. Measurement with JUST this system will JUMP around unpredictably, or seemingly chaotic.

When the irrational value of 2^(1/12) is used, everything starts to fall into place. All that is needed then is a "starting value" that makes the resonant measurements agree with all of our empirical data.

In the end, all I have is the math. I can no more "prove, or disprove" individual "photons" than anybody else. Planck's hypothesis of h was for explaining the black body radiation curve. Einsteins' photoelectric equation was "heuristic". Neither one supported an individual "photon" theory.

In a few generations of having "simple math", the old QM superstitions will die away with the old "high priests".


This is the direction we need to go:

The Nonequilibrium Thermodynamics of Small Systems
HTTP://WWW.AIP.ORG/PT/VOL-58/ISS-7/P43.HTML


regards,

T.Roc

TRoc
In case you have problems with the link.

try:

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-7/p43.html



T.Roc
Good Elf
Hi Confused2,

QUOTE (Confused2+)
[...]Again the physics of the snooker table dictate matching of (angular) momentum. The EPR experiment as described is inherently performed with photons of different frequencies (energies).

I don't seem able to see the stream of continuous cyclical energy in quite the same way as everyone else. In fairness I didn't expect it to be quite that simple.
I see your point and I understand where you are coming from. But there are two ways to see this problem. Alain Aspects derivation is a closed system and it works. I do not disagree with that. what I am saying is there are alternative explanations for the results. Hidden variables is one way to say it but actually it is the action of taking inner products which is not reversible that leads to the inability to recover the results which may be beyond the three dimensional "box"...
Projection Amplitudes going from linear to circularly polarized light
Once you do this you destroy any hope of finding any additional dimensional "elements". It is the result of the fact that the Lagrangian is self contained in three dimensional space. Naturally when a particle is not in "three dimensional space" it plays no part in this Lagrangian. It is now in the classical "quantum state"... where we know that no energy processes we are studying in three dimensions play any part. There are phenomena in wave theory that still can be seen but we cannot measure through their non-existent energy exchanges... any exchanges with them such as de Broglie matter waves are evanescent and cannot transfer a "test" photon unless the state is collapsed. This leads to such effects as quantum postulates such as "stationary states". Think of the "free Kondo Phantoms" which are "gratis" but dependent on the primary particle for existence. This is also the problem of virtual particles to a lesser extent. A mirror is a potential source of "virtual particles" yet is not "paid for" in terms of energy and momentum. Similarly higher dimensional D6 branes 'reflect" particles in the external environment.

The other point I would like to establish is that of Canonical Typicality. This relates particles within the framework of statistics that lead to individualism on a one on one basis yet leads to apparent randomness when dealt with in large numbers. Statistics cannot find or establish any Canonical Typicality in an ensemble of photons. That is just hte nature of statistics. Quantum Mechanics has never been shown to be mathematically complete... it is just an operational theory. This oversight has been know for quite a long time. if the Quantum Mechanist's could fix it don't you think they would have by now?

Let me make an analogy.... It is like trying to study birds flying in the sky by their shadows they cast on the ground. No matter what you do you cannot reconstruct the "birds" from their "shadows". This is because they are a projection.... An inner product.

Cheers
Good Elf
Hi TRoc and Jal,

Lasers can be correlated spatially (but that does not necessarily mean entangled). Some experiments exist in the literature. You can then cause nodes to form over large areas of the experiment but not everywhere. The areas where you are unable to force cancellation of the waves will be the areas where anti-nodes will certainly exist and the laser will dump all the energy there. The intervening space the photons "jump" as seen in the Boyd Experiments and animations you have seen ad-nausium. This is equivalent to tunneling IMHO.

I really think that you still have the situation that for a single boson state (on the one wavefront) all photons create the same pattern and interfere with themselves (and not with any other photons). With separate lasers that are simply highly synchronized this forms one single cavity with larger nodes and anti-modes through beats. These standing patterns are not photons interfering with each other they are the property of the space and the cavity at that frequency. Just putting two lasers in line with each other "causes" the cavity (it is just geometry). You then need to switch the laser on... he he he!

Cheers
yquantum
Ladies and gentlemen,

Just stopping by for a moment and wanted to summit a humble view of what I have read on the last few post.

I understand there is a need to know, Why?

But from my point of view you have tried to explain the why yet you have only conjectures until you can make predictions that will give you theory any validity.

You should understand by now that I would not offend anyone, but the truth be known nothing that I have read, has been looked at before by non professional and professionals in the field of optics.

If a theory has any merit then it can give not only cause, but prediction of results.

If it cannot then it is just a belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. If you want to accomplish something of worth, I would humbly suggest that you find a way to make a prediction of the, double slit experiment and show what will happen instead of why you think it happens.

I just know those on this one post have the minds to achieve what ever they choose, with in reason of course.

I truly wish you the best, but you have to come up with something NEW and Predictive.

ciao_
yquantum
jal
Hi yquantum and all!
QUOTE
...a way to make a prediction of the, double slit experiment

Heads I win... tails you lose. biggrin.gif
The double slit experiment has the weirdness.
A new approach which would predict that the weirness does not exist would not be believed. It would be called wrong.
Even a new approach that would say that the weirdness is there would lose.
The "standard" theoretical approach predicts the "weirdness".
That is the only acceptable prediction. biggrin.gif
see http://www.roxanne.org/epr/end.html
TRoc .... let's see your approach.
jal
Laserlight
Hello All,

Of interest, more info on the diffraction pattern that creates Airy disks.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials...photography.htm

user posted image User posted image


http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/java/im...tion/index.html

I am a bit curious about the effect since it is normally associated with lenses in
microscopes, telescopes, and circular orifices when projected on a 2D surface.
Our camera in the experiment had the lens removed, and no orifice.
Perhaps the shape of the"beam itself", being a focused coherent
beam, acted as the "lens" mechanism and generated the Airy Rings.

In the experiment the central UV component of the beam (the Airy Disk) was
filtered out, which implies that a large component of the UV photons of the
applied UV laser beam must not have undergone down conversion. An Airy disk and
its rings are always "annularly" concentric according to what the demonstrations/
explanations indicate. I understand the issue of polarized divergent beams and
their "offset" from each other, but the central Airy disk, in each separate plane,
maintains its original UV spectrum.

I am also curious why only the Airy Rings are in the IR range, while no
component of the central Airy Disk itself is in the IR range.

Does anyone else see it this way too?

blink.gif

LL
Confused2
Hi LL,

QUOTE (LL+)

I am also curious why only the Airy Rings are in the IR range, while no component of the central Airy Disk itself is in the IR range.


Looking at the movie from NIST ( NIST = National Institute for Standards and Technology see http://www.nist.gov/ ) http://physics.nist.gov/Divisions/Div844/f...Type2Movie.html it seems the predicted angle to the straight path at 700nm is about 3 degrees. Given the the path between BBO and film is 106 mm this suggests each ring is about 6mm at 700nm. With higher and lower frequency filters you get the big ring / small ring effect. Of course NIST could be wrong. Personally, at such a small deviation from the normal angle, I wouldn't expect the filters to be far off their claimed passband.

Is it possible that any UV that blasts through the BBO is effectively removed by the UV filter? - hence the UV does not make any contribution to the picture. If there is no IR matching the passband of the filter on the 'straight through' path then there would be no central disk. .. and we see no central disk.

The plot thickens.

Conservation of energy ( hf_UV = hf_1 + hf_2 ) suggests that if the wavelength of one photon is longer than 702nm then the other must be shorter than 702nm. Hence the problem with the bright bit where the rings overlap.

Best wishes,

C2.

Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, Confused2, Yquantum, Jal, TRoc et al,

The distance between the layers in an interference filter will equal a multiple (mostly one) wavenumber at the required frequency. Of course that is the perpendicular distance. This is not the case in this situation with diverged light.
Interference Filters: The Key to It All
The way I see the physical setup is something like this with all the cut-off filters and even the aperture removed.
User posted image
Click on image to enlarge. I have dotted in the suppressed zeroth order airy disk. It has sufficient "tilt" to be more than 5nm longer than the cutoff bandwidth of the Interference filter. The stage is rotated so that the ordinary ray is "off to the left" and the extraordinary ray is "off to the right". The crystal axis is aligned so the images are displaced as shown. I hope this makes some sense. Notice I have used a converging lens to first converge the laser light to a point then to diverge it from that point onwards... The Airy disks are circles drawn such that the path length as shown by the sloping outside of the cones equal a multiple of the number of wavelengths inside the Interference Filter. The locus of equal paths are the two circles. You need to understand the optics as shown in the original supplied image to make some sense. The zeroth order disks are both suppressed since the outer edge of the dotted areas have longer paths than the straight through paths by being on the diagonal. Therefore destructive interference occurs. Only in the two "heavy" circles does constructive interference occur.

Cheers
Confused2
Hi GE,

I get the impression you feel the NIST movie is 'wrong' .. can you explain why?

Best wishes,

-C2.
Good Elf
Hi Confused2,

QUOTE (Confused2+)
I get the impression you feel the NIST movie is 'wrong' .. can you explain why?

Best wishes,
Not "wrong" just irrelevant. I have already explained that the NIST movie is not about "entangled" photons it is about parametric down conversion and tuning lasers polychromatically.
Earlier post by Good Elf with comment on NIST movies
BBO crystals are a "tool" that is used in more than one place. Entanglement is tested with pairs of matched photons... I think you are not reading the literature and becoming disoriented. You are wandering off the classic experiment and into other areas that are not related. We need to stick with one experiment at a time.

Cheers
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