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Laserlight
Hi C2,

QUOTE
The idea of changing fields generating waves may not be 'good' .. but I suspect it has the quality of being consistently bad .. and it will predict the right answers within the limits of its applicability .. could be wrong of course.


Let's set up a little gedanken experiment:

Wave a magnet at a constant frequency past a pickup wire attached to an
oscilloscope....on the screen you will observe..........................waves of
current being induced into the wire
.

Does this alter your perspective about changing (alternating) fields generating
waves?

Conversely, if you observe an AC current (waves) and flow them thru an AC motor
the rotor rotates past the alternating field poles in sync with the waving AC current.

smile.gif
LL
Laserlight
Hi Jal,

I understand your point.

QUOTE
So the very valid question, “What is there at the quantum level that make the geometric patterns in classical space?”
What is mechanism is there at the quantum level that removes the Chaos … Randomness …. Complexity … Unpredictability?
Maybe none of those things are there. Maybe it’s just our interpretation that is wrong.
Look for that answer and you will find that DSE will fall into the realm of “understood”.


The ONE thing that is common to symmetrical, asymmetrical, complexity, and
chaos is RELATIONSHIPS! The idea being that there are factors
involved that are necessary to create relationships. This is also why geometry
works, because of fixed relationships. True, geometry uses very structured and
predictable spatial relationships based upon a linear Cartesian coordinate system.
But, when you throw TIME into the mix you go from a pure linear relationship to
relationships that can be linear, non-linear or exponential in form.

As GE has stated Time is the reciprocal of frequency....and vice versa according
to T = 1/f, and f =1/T. IMO, frequency quantifies time. Basically,
a fixed number of identical events occuring over a fixed frequency interval of time.
In effect we have a frequency of events, partitioning a frequency of time.
So, for no obvious reason.....Tf = 1. TRoc should appreciate this concept.

LL
Laserlight
Hi Maybe and Welcome!

Jump right into the fray. Just an advance heads up, your concepts/ideas will be
closely scrutinized and contested by all. It is the nature of this board so don't take
it personally. We expect the same scrutiny from you. The goal is to find
the truth, and anything that might "shed light" (pun intended), or open a door
in a new direction to better understand the underlying physic's of the DSE is fair
game.

Just an FYI, if you click on a poster's "name" it will take you to the details page
of the individual where you can select to read all his posts in reverse chronological
order.

LL

jal
cool.gif Search for the butterfly! cool.gif

Look at Home page of Alexey A. Kryukov http://depts.uwc.edu/math/faculty/kryukov/
-----------
Keep reading from Kevin Brown
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/conclusion/conclusion.htm
Conclusion
---------
Look at M. V. Berry
http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/...rs/Berry274.pdf
------------
jal
Laserlight
Hi Montec, et al,

QUOTE
The "hill and valley" or changing field strength as electron moves at a relative speed across the grating can generate an EM field if the changes are rapid enough but they cannot by themselves generate the 120 deg angle of the emitted photons with respect to the grating's normal. Any electric field or magnetic field will perturb the electrons motion through space unless the force [1] acts along the electrons movement vector or [2] causes a harmonic movement at right angles to the movement vector. Simple changes in the field strength will not do this. There has to be a reversal in field polarities.


If there were no grating, which direction would the photon be emitted from the
normal path of the accelerating electron? Doesn't that depend upon the spin
direction of the electron relative to the vector direction? (the chirality)

I agree that accelerating electrons generate photon frequencies, no argument
there. Electron tubes generate "noise", and CRT tubes emit low energy soft x-rays.

Many electronic devices are used to generate RF frequencies, such as the
the magnetron which has a spaced array of high gauss magnets to helically spiral
the emitted electron paths as they move from cathode to anode. It also
has resonant cavities between the magnets to "amplify" and "tune" the RF photon
frequencies being generated by the accelerating/spiraling electrons. The more
current that is applied to the cathode, the more electrons that are emitted and the
higher/stronger the RF energy density that is generated.

Similarly, "hills and valleys" matter fields should represent varying cavity
resonances which might impart some field phasing interference effect on the
passing electron, but I've not given much thought to this idea.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The "hill and valley" or changing field strength as electron moves at a relative speed across the grating can generate an EM field if the changes are rapid enough but they cannot by themselves generate the 120 deg angle of the emitted photons with respect to the grating's normal. Any electric field or magnetic field will perturb the electrons motion through space unless the force [1] acts along the electrons movement vector or [2] causes a harmonic movement at right angles to the movement vector. Simple changes in the field strength will not do this. There has to be a reversal in field polarities.


If there were no grating, which direction would the photon be emitted from the
normal path of the accelerating electron? Doesn't that depend upon the spin
direction of the electron relative to the vector direction? (the chirality)

I agree that accelerating electrons generate photon frequencies, no argument
there. Electron tubes generate "noise", and CRT tubes emit low energy soft x-rays.

Many electronic devices are used to generate RF frequencies, such as the
the magnetron which has a spaced array of high gauss magnets to helically spiral
the emitted electron paths as they move from cathode to anode. It also
has resonant cavities between the magnets to "amplify" and "tune" the RF photon
frequencies being generated by the accelerating/spiraling electrons. The more
current that is applied to the cathode, the more electrons that are emitted and the
higher/stronger the RF energy density that is generated.

Similarly, "hills and valleys" matter fields should represent varying cavity
resonances which might impart some field phasing interference effect on the
passing electron, but I've not given much thought to this idea.



The energy used in the Smith-Purcell effect comes from the electron's momentum loss which is the same as the loss of momentum in the generation of synchrotron radiation.

Now if we want to say that the RF radiation does not come from the acceleration of charged particles then we must come up with a theory that applies to all cases of EM radiation.


Are you proposing a new field of particle physics? laugh.gif

LL
maybe
Laserlight

Thanks and I have had to do this test so long ago in different flavors or approaches. biggrin.gif But warning taken, will not take it personal yet I still have much reading to do on this subject on this post and the input given so I do not repeat what has been said.

I am now retired, I am one of those advisor's now helping others with there goals so I already understand there is so very much that needs to be better understood.

Sure I read that somewhere on this DSE site. blink.gif

maybe
Good Elf
Hi Jal, Laserlight, Montec, Confused2, Janrinze, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Jal, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, "THEY" and "THEY2" et al,

QUOTE (Jal+)
Search for the butterfly!

Look at Home page of Alexey A. Kryukov http://depts.uwc.edu/math/faculty/kryukov/
-----------
Keep reading from Kevin Brown
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/conclusion/conclusion.htm
Conclusion
---------
Look at M. V. Berry
http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/...rs/Berry274.pdf
------------
jal
It is a good "conclusion" there. I have been looking around regarding several topics and I am truly amazed to find a lot of work by people in the field relating to "self imaging" and the Talbot Spacing.
QUOTE
Aspects of nonlocality from a quantum trajectory perspective:
A WKB approach to Bohmian mechanics

A. S. Sanz∗ and S. Miret–Art´es†
Instituto de Matem´aticas y F´ısica Fundamental
Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cient´ıficas
Serrano 123, 28006 Madrid, Spain
(Dated: April 1, 2007)
Abstract
Nonlocality is a property of paramount importance both conceptually and computationally exhibited by quantum systems, which has no classical counterpart. Conceptually, it is important because it implies that the evolving system has information on what happens at any space point and time. Computationally, because such a knowledge makes any calculation intractable as the number of degrees of freedom involved increases beyond a few of them. Bohmian mechanics, with its trajectory–based formalism in real configuration space, can help to better understand nonlocality. A detailed analysis of how nonlocal information is transmitted to quantum trajectories in simple systems (free particle and harmonic oscillator) turns out to be very interesting when compared to analogous systems in classical mechanics, where  h/2π ≡ 0

http://export.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703161
Note that we have the best description of this phenomena being Bohmian Mechanics and individual particle trajectories but each particle has information about the whole environment through "Talbot Interferences". While stating that non-locality has no classical counterpart it is clear that quantum locality cannot answer these properties which are derived from classical and semi-classical treatments. Exactly how these relate to the problem of tunneling is explored through Bohmian Mechanics. The conclusion "seems to be" that while the "quantum particle's trajectory" is confined and not spread the classical trajectory is indeed spread and "probes" through Talbot Interferences the rest of the entire space. Thus the upshot reported indicates "that at every time any particle has information about the whole system configuration, unless h/2π ≡ 0" (My Note: ... The classical limit). It seems to me that a lot depends on how this is interpreted as to what this means in the context of spatial vacuoles. It suggests that some aspect of the entire space is encoded into the "particle state" of the "propagating photon wave". This can only be "measured" when it is absorbed so this is not a contradiction of my interpretation.

The Bohmian Mechanical view attributes a path to particles individually. This path cannot be know in advance. As an ansaz Bohm proposed that the particle "rode" on a wave that carried it to its final sink. This does not require additional physical dimensions but requires a description of the space in parametric "hidden variables". It is not suggested that this is actually what happens but it is one way in which it may be treated. Another possibility would be additional physical dimensions that remove the need for those parameters. Certainly this behavior is not possible to describe by straight quantum theory but are additional physical dimensions actually necessary? ... Big question eh!! The information of the rest of the reachable space must be encoded in an intermediate configuration space such that the particle can somehow "know" about the other parts of the experiment such as where all the matter is located. While the "spreading" wave provides "global" knowledge of the system the quantum particle cannot spread and so cannot normally have this information. If we allow a Bohmian Interpretation of the trajectory such that each and every particle has a history and different dynamics then this information can be carried to the quantum particle by this configuration space. Thus the local dynamics of the non-spreading quantum particle can "experience" a different version of space through this Talbot Carpet in the configuration space.

My take on this favors the idea that the space itself sees different photons at different frequencies differently... that is the empty space responds in a different way to each and every photon. This is like a resonant line and the way EM waves can pass down it allows the simultaneous superposition of many frequencies all at once ... each frequency carrying its own separate information that is oblivious to all other frequencies. It is as though each frequency and each photon packet has all the space to itself all the time. In the past we simply speak of this as Bose-Einstein Statistics... All photons see space as "personal property" and at low energies at least do not know of the existence of other photons that are co-travelers. On the other hand particles like electrons do not normally share their private space with other particles or other electrons. This is called space quantization and is mandated by the Pauli Exclusion Principle. What this Bohmian Dynamics suggest is even particles like electrons experience different spaces depending on the de Broglie wavelength. This accounts for the different trajectories the particles have. Quantum Physics cannot differentiate these paths so does not have much to say about it. As far a QM is concerned these paths are "indistinguishable".

Cheers
Montec
Hello Laserlight, et al.

QUOTE
If there were no grating, which direction would the photon be emitted from the normal path of the accelerating electron?


The radiation pattern (according to current theory) will be a spherical wave at right angles to the electron's acceleration vector (if the acceleration provides enough energy to overcome the resistance of space to EM radiation).

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If there were no grating, which direction would the photon be emitted from the normal path of the accelerating electron?


The radiation pattern (according to current theory) will be a spherical wave at right angles to the electron's acceleration vector (if the acceleration provides enough energy to overcome the resistance of space to EM radiation).

Doesn't that depend upon the spin direction of the electron relative to the vector direction? (the chirality)


I think spin has more effect on polarization (left/right circular) of light when the source (atom/molecule) is within a weak magnetic field. This polarization effect appears to be directional within the spherical wavefront with respect to the applied magnetic field.

There is a difference between the field produce by a charged particle moving past a point and an EM wave propagating past a point. The produced/measured electric field at the point only varies in strength when the particle move by. The EM wave, however, changes strength and polarity as it propagates by the point. This is because of the difference between charge and displacement charge. ie The rising field has a vector pointing up while a falling field has a vector pointing down.

QUOTE
Are you proposing a new field of particle physics? laugh.gif


Will only happen when all other fields laugh.gif of endeavorer fail.

smile.gif

jal
Hi Good Elf!
It is interesting that we can all read the same paper and get something different from it.
QUOTE
My take on this favors the idea that the space itself sees different photons at different frequencies differently... that is the empty space responds in a different way to each and every photon.

All I got was what he said
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703161v1
Aspects of nonlocality from a quantum trajectory perspective: A WKB approach to Bohmian mechanics
Authors: A.S. Sanz, S. Miret-Artes
(Submitted on 17 Mar 2007 (this version), latest version 22 Mar 2007 (v2))
p.8
“…. understand how nonlocality operates here, note that the wave packet does not spread with time but remains the same, with its center following the path tracked by the corresponding classical trajectory. This implies that the quantum motion is constrained.”
See!?... now I ask, "By what?"
Who else read the paper?
What did you get?
(Don't be worried by the formulas. We are not analysing the paper to that level.)
jal
Montec
Hello jal, et al.

What I got from reading http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703161v1 is that the total energy within a wavefront shape determines the future energy/wavefront shape as an ongoing process. The trick here is the energy must be of the same frequency and phase.

smile.gif

Montec
Hello GoodElf, TRoc, et al.

A quote from here.
QUOTE
The light being emitted by lasers has what you might call a coherence curve. It is a bell shaped curve which shows, in distance from the exit point of the laser, where the wavelengths are most in phase. This is usually a constant integer and depends on the wavelength or substance which is lasing, the size of the laser as well as how purely it is emitted. This number, as how purely it is emitted. This number, let's say eight inches reamins constant. At the peak of the curve, or every eight inches, the light is most in phase. you would make the path lengths of your beams multiples of twice the cavity length of your laser. In addition, the coherence function repeats itself. It is at maximum again at a distance of twice the mirror separation in the laser. It repeats itself. It is at maximum again at a distance of twice the mirror separation in the laser. It repeats itself every 2L distance.


Could the repeating coherency be a "Talbot cartpet" within the laser beam?

smile.gif

maybe
Hi,

Laserlight said that all is fair, & I know from a new person I will not get your attention but I hope this will change in the future if my information is correct and worth thought.

This will get you in trouble guys if you take this approach and I believe GOOD ELF is a fan. smile.gif

QUOTE
the Bohmian analysis as proposed
here could be of great help to provide a deeper inside in nonlocal effects.


There is a problem from my view due to the technology and all the mind experiments you make will not solve this problem using pilot waves, etc, I think Confused 2 has the closest explanation going but no one seem to like the collapse wave and quantum theory approach but that is the way it is as strange as it might be.

Yes again there is a problem but you seem to be just using new data to repeat yourself. Just want to help not make anyone mad, heck I am the new kid on the block even if I am a old fart that has been given this question presented to me over and over again by first yr grads.

Talbot had some great experiments that gave wonderful results but the out come never was explained by him. I think THEY said it best but no need to repeat due to the fact you did not pay any mind to her comment.


Please correct me if I am mistaken I will not take it personal. sad.gif smile.gif

maybe
Confused2
Hi maybe,THEY and all,
As was suggested a while back..
QUOTE (THEY+)
You guys could take turns... Spend one week (or more, or less if required) allowing one person to post his/her ideas and answer questions. Everyone would have to refrain from the "but I like my model better, it works like this:..." until its your turn. Just get the theory out in the open, and everybody's input on whether the bucket holds water (or light) or if there are far too many holes. Then once everyone is satisfied the theory has been fully probed, you move on to the next person's theory.

It might be a way round the Groundhog day effect.
Best wishes - C2.

Edit .. given that some/most/all of us have to work .. maybe book days for 'our' theory .. Exposition + Q&A .. the next day may not be contiguous but picks up from the end of the last day. ???

Edit2 .. some of us are literally and metaphorically 'poles apart' .. I'd suggest using GMT to define a 'day' .. I assume that comes with a unique date despite the odd things that that must happen when (say) Tuesday gets all round the world and suddenly bumps into Wednesday.. or vice versa unsure.gif
TRoc
Hi all,


Along with everyone else, let me welcome "maybe" to this thread.
"MB" to lazy typists!
biggrin.gif


I went back several pages, and did not see a post by "THEY", so I'm confused by this statement by MB,
QUOTE
Talbot had some great experiments that gave wonderful results but the out come never was explained by him. I think THEY said it best but no need to repeat due to the fact you did not pay any mind to her comment.



Although, for this reason, I would say that giving this phenomenon the title of "Talbot Interference" is not justified. He and Lund contributed greatly, but in the end, they only wanted to make cameras.


In some attempt to not "sidetrack" this conversation ( laugh.gif ), I've posted a very related post in another thread, which I would appreciate those that are interested in my method, would read. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=257263


LL asked me if I can explain this to my grandmother. Of course! As long as she didn't have the disadvantage of the complex method being her "method of choice".


There is no problem whatsoever, in telling a musician to "invert the perfect fifth", and you'll arrive at the "node" of the previous octave. Only if I tried to used "sq rt -1" to explain the relationship between "zero" ( a node), and "1/2" (a harmonic).


There is no problem whatsoever, in an artist understanding that NO amount of "red paint" (intensity) will change the "color" (frequency). They will also understand, from experience, that if we mix red and yellow, to get orange (a node, or 1/2 point), that the orange has an opposite, in "complex space" (the dualistic additive/subtractive theories of color).


As these "coincidences" go, I had an insight when answering Neil's question a few pages ago. I now have a valid explanation of why, through simple experiment, that "white light", passed through green glass (filter), creates a magenta shadow, within the "normal" shadow: caustics and phase nodes.

User posted image


As I have stated before, if it were not from the demi-god Mr. Newton, it might not have been accepted without question. In his book, "Optiks", these phase reversals are written off as "aberrations", and have been left in the dust, ever since. Goethe noted these clearly, as did Lund, and more recently, Berry, Visser, and T.Roc smile.gif .


The "missing link" is the "non-linear" perspective of the octave.


Maybe these links will be of more service now, than before:

Exploring the Colors of Dark Light, M Berry
Colored Phase Singularities, M Berry

User posted image


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Talbot had some great experiments that gave wonderful results but the out come never was explained by him. I think THEY said it best but no need to repeat due to the fact you did not pay any mind to her comment.



Although, for this reason, I would say that giving this phenomenon the title of "Talbot Interference" is not justified. He and Lund contributed greatly, but in the end, they only wanted to make cameras.


In some attempt to not "sidetrack" this conversation ( laugh.gif ), I've posted a very related post in another thread, which I would appreciate those that are interested in my method, would read. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=257263


LL asked me if I can explain this to my grandmother. Of course! As long as she didn't have the disadvantage of the complex method being her "method of choice".


There is no problem whatsoever, in telling a musician to "invert the perfect fifth", and you'll arrive at the "node" of the previous octave. Only if I tried to used "sq rt -1" to explain the relationship between "zero" ( a node), and "1/2" (a harmonic).


There is no problem whatsoever, in an artist understanding that NO amount of "red paint" (intensity) will change the "color" (frequency). They will also understand, from experience, that if we mix red and yellow, to get orange (a node, or 1/2 point), that the orange has an opposite, in "complex space" (the dualistic additive/subtractive theories of color).


As these "coincidences" go, I had an insight when answering Neil's question a few pages ago. I now have a valid explanation of why, through simple experiment, that "white light", passed through green glass (filter), creates a magenta shadow, within the "normal" shadow: caustics and phase nodes.

User posted image


As I have stated before, if it were not from the demi-god Mr. Newton, it might not have been accepted without question. In his book, "Optiks", these phase reversals are written off as "aberrations", and have been left in the dust, ever since. Goethe noted these clearly, as did Lund, and more recently, Berry, Visser, and T.Roc smile.gif .


The "missing link" is the "non-linear" perspective of the octave.


Maybe these links will be of more service now, than before:

Exploring the Colors of Dark Light, M Berry
Colored Phase Singularities, M Berry

User posted image


The result of the analysis in I, where the infinite-dimensional space of spectra is projected to the three-dimensional space of colours, is the distinctive universal pattern reproduced in figure 1. The colours appear when the region near the singularity, which is dark, is scaled to have constant luminosity. There is a symmetry axis, indicating the direction in which the zero moves with k. Approximately circular regions of colour, including intense blue, red and yellow, separated by a large white circle, merge into an unsaturated `asymptotic white'. As can be seen, and as was explained in I, the region in the total gamut of possible colours that the universal pattern occupies is rather small; most notably, there is no green.


user posted image


QUOTE
The universal colour pattern of figure 1 has been shown to emerge asymptotically in the limit where zeros are isolated, that is the achromatic limit . Thus the colour pattern of phase singularities joins a list of asymptotically emergent universal phenomena in physics. Other examples are critical phenomena (where universal scaling exponents emerge close to critical points in the thermodynamic limit), diffraction catastrophes (where characteristic patterns decorating caustics emerge in the short-wave limit) and random-matrix spectra in quantum systems that are classically chaotic (where universal level correlations emerge in the semiclassical limit of highly excited states).



Jal will be interested to know, that if we "tightly pack spheres" around a sphere, we have to deal with 6 "nodes", which might be rather "spot-like". In total, we will have 12 "cycles" to contend with, cycles being the complete view of node & anti-node. Take any 3 non-adjacent nodes, and you'll automatically "capture" all that is necessary to define the resonant relationships of the nodes, and anti-nodes as well. This may very well apply to "dimension parameters" too. wink.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FWM

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The universal colour pattern of figure 1 has been shown to emerge asymptotically in the limit where zeros are isolated, that is the achromatic limit . Thus the colour pattern of phase singularities joins a list of asymptotically emergent universal phenomena in physics. Other examples are critical phenomena (where universal scaling exponents emerge close to critical points in the thermodynamic limit), diffraction catastrophes (where characteristic patterns decorating caustics emerge in the short-wave limit) and random-matrix spectra in quantum systems that are classically chaotic (where universal level correlations emerge in the semiclassical limit of highly excited states).



Jal will be interested to know, that if we "tightly pack spheres" around a sphere, we have to deal with 6 "nodes", which might be rather "spot-like". In total, we will have 12 "cycles" to contend with, cycles being the complete view of node & anti-node. Take any 3 non-adjacent nodes, and you'll automatically "capture" all that is necessary to define the resonant relationships of the nodes, and anti-nodes as well. This may very well apply to "dimension parameters" too. wink.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FWM

Doing the math with the three input signals, you will find that 12 interfering frequencies are produced, 3 of which lie on one of original incoming frequencies.




regards,

T.Roc
Laserlight
Hi All,

Perhaps you have noticed my resounding lack of enthusiasm for Talbot carpets.

1st, let me say, I'm not all that "excited" about "Talbot carpets". IMO, they are
just light interference superpositions that create optical patterns according to
internal wave reflections emanating from a transmission source. They are an
energy phase "timing" generated phenomenon. I fail to see any useful information in the
phenomenon, but that is just me. Perhaps I am missing some subtleties that are
important, but IMO they are not much different than looking at the "bunny" shapes
that can be observed in cloud formations. laugh.gif

Talbot carpets might represent some resonance "shadow" phenomenon, but if
it is due to internal reflections originating from the source, is it relevant, other
than to indicate that indeed yes, interference is taking place? Don't we expect
that to happen? Geese, we can see similar energy "shadow" effects from light
passing thru a faceted crystal. OOOohhhh, see the pretty shapes and colors! laugh.gif

Coherency is phase alignment. Internal reflections in a confined/enclosed
transmission medium merely cause phase delays to part of the energy passing
thru it which establishes periodic superposition interference patterns, due to the
signal delays. I have expressed this phase timing delay conceptualization,
that creates superposition patterns in numerous prior posts, so you will excuse me
if I am not excited by recent "events".

Hmmm, it is groundhog day! What goes around, comes around.

LL


maybe
TRoc,

I have never felt if you need to explain in great detail because it can becomes muddled to the person or you lose there attention do to time allow.

QUOTE
However, the predicted Talbot reconstruction of caustics for smooth phase gratings has yet to be observed.


Because I am new I cannot put a site on a reply, so just check into "physicsworld article print 133 on the www.

This is why I said,

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
However, the predicted Talbot reconstruction of caustics for smooth phase gratings has yet to be observed.


Because I am new I cannot put a site on a reply, so just check into "physicsworld article print 133 on the www.

This is why I said,

Talbot had some great experiments that gave wonderful results but the out come never was explained by him.
Thanks, "THEY" now I must run a few extra miles. biggrin.gif

maybe unsure.gif
Why Not?
Hey jal, C2, THEY, TRoc, GE, LL, Montec, MB and all,

jal, thanks for the idea, I will open a new thread in the morning and include some detail on the circles. wink.gif

LL, thanks for the idea, but I am only talking about geometry at this point. Hopefully tomorrows thread will add some insight.

All, I second THEY's idea to focus on one idea per week and nominate C2 to be thread topic director. That said, I would also like to nominate Talbot and TRoc for the first week. Do I have seconds?

Mahalo
Laserlight
Hi Jal, et al,


QUOTE
understand how nonlocality operates here, note that the wave packet does not spread with time but remains the same, with its center following the path tracked by the corresponding classical trajectory. This implies that the quantum motion is constrained.”
See!?... now I ask, "By what?"


The energy is constrained within the volume and limits of the wavefunction, which
is a dynamic energetic process that oscillates/undulates as a consequence of the
complementary energy exchange between the electric and magnetic fields, and space.
"Local" energetic space resonates at the frequency of the oscillating fields.

A "conceptual" mechanism:

Space is displaced/distorted in the presence of fields and "absorbs" the increasing
electrical wave energy, like a capacitor, until the peak wave energy level is
achieved. Space then releases the accumulated/stored electrical energy back into
the modulating wavefunction, in a process similar to an electronic resonant "tank
circuit". This "reversal" reinforces the electrical field phasor expansion in the
opposite direction and with opposite polarity.

The capacitance (accumulator/capacitive reactance) effect of space arises as a
result of an energetic "delta" that exists between different energy levels at relative
points of reference in space. An alternating electric field, dynamically "displaces"
a volume of space, which is surrounded by non-energetic space, that is operating
at some zero point energy reference level.

The magnetic field component of the wavefunction has a 90 degree orthogonal
quadrature relationship to the electric field component, and represents the
lateral volumetric wavefunction energy displacement of space. Volumetric
expansion requires 3 dimensions and time. This could be considered an
electric expansion (Y axis), a magnetic expansion (z axis), and the displacement
current vector "expansion" along the x axis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_phase

Just some musings....
LL
jal
QUOTE
Laserlight
A "conceptual" mechanism:

Space is displaced/distorted in the presence of fields and "absorbs" the increasing
electrical wave energy, like a capacitor, until the peak wave energy level is
achieved. Space then releases the accumulated/stored electrical energy back into
the modulating wavefunction, in a process similar to an electronic resonant "tank
circuit". This "reversal" reinforces the electrical field phasor expansion in the
opposite direction and with opposite polarity.

Sighhhh!
This forum is full of "conceptual" mechanisms.
SUSY says the same thing by using super-partners that have not been found.
They have about 1,000 models ready to be compared to the data from CERN. (If we ever get it)
---------
Why Not?
I'll be looking forward to reading your thread.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Laserlight
A "conceptual" mechanism:

Space is displaced/distorted in the presence of fields and "absorbs" the increasing
electrical wave energy, like a capacitor, until the peak wave energy level is
achieved. Space then releases the accumulated/stored electrical energy back into
the modulating wavefunction, in a process similar to an electronic resonant "tank
circuit". This "reversal" reinforces the electrical field phasor expansion in the
opposite direction and with opposite polarity.

Sighhhh!
This forum is full of "conceptual" mechanisms.
SUSY says the same thing by using super-partners that have not been found.
They have about 1,000 models ready to be compared to the data from CERN. (If we ever get it)
---------
Why Not?
I'll be looking forward to reading your thread.
All, I second THEY's idea to focus on one idea per week and nominate C2 to be thread topic director. That said, I would also like to nominate Talbot and TRoc for the first week. Do I have seconds?

SECONDED
--------------
TRoc
QUOTE
Jal will be interested to know, that if we "tightly pack spheres" around a sphere, we have to deal with 6 "nodes", which might be rather "spot-like". In total, we will have 12 "cycles" to contend with, cycles being the complete view of node & anti-node. Take any 3 non-adjacent nodes, and you'll automatically "capture" all that is necessary to define the resonant relationships of the nodes, and anti-nodes as well. This may very well apply to "dimension parameters" too.

I'm glad that you are pointing out this example of geometry to the non-believers. biggrin.gif
Could you not find an example of chaos .... randomness?
I repeat my question... What is there at the quantum level that creates structures/geometry?
Remember to keep it simple enough for a 12 year old.
--------------
maybe
Welcome!
You may not feel welcome because this forum and thread will make you become a student and reevaluate a lot of what you learnt and taught to students.
On the other hand, I look forward to learning from your inputs.
---------
Let the search/fun continue
jal
Confused2
QUOTE
.. nominate C2 to be thread topic director


Thank you for the suggestion but this is not an option. Only partly because some would sell their daughters into slavery before they would accept me as a thread director. Also it is Tax Return Month .. when fact meets fiction and only one can triumph. Also major changes happening on the work front .. I expect to be very busy for the foreseeable future.

I (again) propose THEY as the one best qualified to organize the thread.

Best wishes - C2.

PS Thanks for the kind thought .. it really is appreciated.

Good Elf
Hi Jal, Laserlight, Montec, Confused2, Janrinze, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Jal, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, "THEY" and "THEY2" et al,

The question on this thread has often come round to this question. Whose voice do you wish to silence? While it is a nice idea that someone "organize" threads as long as we retain civility all ideas can and should be aired. I have never been one for "voting" on what people believe to be the best science. It should be a case of theory and then experimental proof or at least "substantiation".

Science can never be a "place of rest" for a weary traveler. There are no "ultimate truths" here. All that can be offered is the encouragement that we are still moving in a direction that answers more of the questions that people wish to have answered when compared to the immediate past. To me this is enough. Ask as many questions you will and see what can answer the largest number of them without experimental conflict. The very Universe itself gives us "encouragement" when we ask it through experiment "How well are we going, are we still on course?"

Anyone can be a mentor and anyone can be a judge of these matters and decide what is best for all of us. If people like to contribute to this discussion their views should be heard and we should all listen. However....This is not a court of law but a forum. This means we are not passing ultimate judgment but we are gathering "forensic evidence". The answers and the questions should not be decided by one judgmental individual no matter how qualified or "By twelve good men and true" picked from among our peers.

I have discussed here in this thread previously... The virtue and the error of Kurt Gödel. He proved from a philosophical viewpoint that we are unable to arrive at any ultimate truths through building on any human framework of logical propositions. Does this mean that a search for "truth" is then futile? It most certainly is if this is the kind of truth for which you search. There is a common "need" for g*ds and administration of the knowledge that gives access to them by the "high priests". Ask yourselves deep down could you live without all assurance that beneath it "all" there is some ultimate meaning. Be you Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, or Jew or any other denomination most will admit if they are truthful that they absolutely need something to fill that void.
QUOTE (Wikipedia: Kurt Gödel+)
Gödel's first incompleteness theorem, perhaps the single most celebrated result in mathematical logic, states that:

For any consistent formal, computably enumerable theory that proves basic arithmetical truths, an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory, can be constructed. That is, any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27...teness_theorems

It says more about this point further on...
QUOTE (Wikipedia: Gödel's incompleteness theorems+)
Gödel's theorems are theorems in first-order logic, and must ultimately be understood in that context. In formal logic, both mathematical statements and proofs are written in a symbolic language, one where we can mechanically check the validity of proofs so that there can be no doubt that a theorem follows from our starting list of axioms. In theory, such a proof can be checked by a computer, and in fact there are computer programs that will check the validity of proofs. (Automatic proof verification is closely related to automated theorem proving, though proving and checking the proof are usually different tasks.)

To be able to perform this process, we need to know what our axioms are. We could start with a finite set of axioms, such as in Euclidean geometry, or more generally we could allow an infinite list of axioms, with the requirement that we can mechanically check for any given statement if it is an axiom from that set or not (an axiom schema). In computer science, this is known as having a recursive set of axioms. While an infinite list of axioms may sound strange, this is exactly what's used in the usual axioms for the natural numbers, the Peano axioms: the inductive axiom is in fact an axiom schema — it states that if zero has any property and whenever any natural number has that property, its successor also has that property, then all natural numbers have that property — it does not specify which property and the only way to say in first-order logic that this is true of all properties is to have infinitely many statements.

Gödel's first incompleteness theorem shows that any such system that allows you to define the natural numbers is necessarily incomplete: it contains statements that are neither provably true nor provably false. Or one might say, no formal system which aims to define the natural numbers can actually do so, as there will be true number-theoretical statements which that system cannot prove. Some argue this refutes the logicism of Gottlob Frege and Bertrand Russell, which aims to define the natural numbers in terms of logic.

The existence of an incomplete system is in itself not particularly surprising. For example, if you take Euclidean geometry and you drop the parallel postulate, you get an incomplete system (in the sense that the system does not contain all the true statements about Euclidean space). A system can be incomplete simply because you haven't discovered all the necessary axioms.

What Gödel showed is that in most cases, such as in number theory or real analysis, you can never create a complete and consistent finite list of axioms, or even an infinite list that can be produced by a computer program. Each time you add a statement as an axiom, there will always be other true statements that still cannot be proved as true, even with the new axiom. Furthermore if the system can prove that it is consistent, then it is inconsistent.

It is possible to have a complete and consistent list of axioms that cannot be produced by a computer program (that is, the list is not computably enumerable). For example, one might take all true statements about the natural numbers to be axioms (and no false statements). But then there is no mechanical way to decide, given a statement about the natural numbers, whether it is an axiom or not.
Of course this "proves" that all mathematics can be "proved" to be ultimately flawed in it's ability to analyze the nature of reality.
QUOTE ("moreover"...+)
The following rephrasing of the second theorem is even more unsettling to the foundations of mathematics:

If an axiomatic system can be proven to be consistent and complete from within itself, then it is inconsistent.
Quoting from this theory... set theory is ultimately mathematically inconsistent and any theory based on number systems is internally inconsistent. This goes doubly for mathematical analysis... you all remember that pedantic and recursive process that seems to give "certainty" ... the ultimate proof that what we are doing is "internally consistent". At some time you must have all have some doubts that this "search" for human "perfection" or wisdom would bear "ultimate fruit"... Think again. It is all internally flawed and has recently been shown to be so. It is as flawed as the Science of Phrenology, the reading of bumps on your head.

"David Hilbert's second problem posed in 1900 as one of his 23 problems. It asks for a proof that arithmetic is consistent..... As Maxwell Smart would say... "Missed it by that much".

Allen Turing, another great mathematician, proposed an extension to Gödel's ideas... "Gödel's theorem has another interpretation in the language of computer science. In first-order logic, theorems are computably enumerable: you can write a computer program that will eventually generate any valid proof. You can ask if they have the stronger property of being recursive: can you write a computer program to definitively determine if a statement is true or false? Gödel's theorem says that in general you cannot."

So why am I rehashing this old chestnut over again? I would remind everyone that all these great men, who were all very deep thinkers, all showed that Mathematics is no strong basis for a "Theory of Everything" since it would be easy to show that any Mathematically provable "Theory of Everything" is not a theory of everything at all. It is just another mathematical theory. The "shut-up and calculate" adage is empty and baseless. It is a "pastime" that assures the diligent worker that he/she is gainfully employed. Mathematics in the end will "prove" nothing regarding the inner nature of an entire Universe simply because the Universe is truly bigger than all of us... physically and philosophically.

What I have said before and I will say again is we have a way out of this dilemma. We must recognize this "tendency" in ourselves to reach for the "Island of stability"... the still center... the human g*d created in the image we find most personally pleasing. To achieve this purpose we need someone to trust to take us out of the confusion into the "promised land"... A new Moses.

Well sorry folks ... there is no new Moses and any human theory will be ultimately flawed and lead to intellectual cul-de-sacs. IMHO the West is reaching one of these "cul-de-sacs" right now and like frogs in a bowl of gradually warming water we are all being cooked alive in our own "greenhouse gases" while we discuss the latest mindless soap opera on TV. The flaw starts as soon as we begin to become complacent. We are most assuredly very very complacent about our methods of analysis and what we hold as proof. As David Hilbert once (almost recently) said "We must not believe those, who today with philosophical bearing and deliberative tone prophesy the fall of culture and accept the ignorabimus (Meaning: "we do not know and will not know"). For us there is no ignorabimus, and in my opinion none whatever in natural science. In opposition to the foolish ignorabimus I offer our slogan:We must know — we shall know!"... Oops!.. Thank you Dr. Strangelove... the height of Mathematical and Scientific Hubris. We all know and understand slogans. That one eventually got etched on his tombstone.

Gödel, a true mental fruitcake, proved that Hilbert was dead wrong. Even Allen Turing, a flawed mathematical genius, proved that we cannot build machines to solve all our problems for us... not even Quantum Computers can do that, you just got to think for yourselves. All these individuals lived long enough to see that the "Triumph of the Will" of Nazi Germany was deeply flawed. We have similar hubris today that is afoot in the world. These are all belief systems just like our religions. So what is left is the politics of science and the politics of thought. What we are permitted to think or not think. A policy of "containment"... Remember what Winston Churchill said "Keep science on tap not on top"... with this logic he personally orchestrated the disassembly of the Colossus Computer into the smallest components and then had them all purposefully destroyed so that the future could never again "invent" these "damned computing machines". The rest is history... the failed history of a once great progressive nation. You need actual examples in history so that we can all learn from them... However you are not forced to learn from them.
User posted image

Cheers
Neil Farbstein
QUOTE (Good Elf+Sep 7 2007, 12:04 AM)
Hi Jal, Laserlight, Montec, Confused2, Janrinze, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Jal, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, "THEY" and "THEY2" et al,

The question on this thread has often come round to this question. Whose voice do you wish to silence? While it is a nice idea that someone "organize" threads as long as we retain civility all ideas can and should be aired. I have never been one for "voting" on what people believe to be the best science. It should be a case of theory and then experimental proof or at least "substantiation".

Science can never be a "place of rest" for a weary traveler. There are no "ultimate truths" here. All that can be offered is the encouragement that we are still moving in a direction that answers more of the questions that people wish to have answered when compared to the immediate past. To me this is enough. Ask as many questions you will and see what can answer the largest number of them without experimental conflict. The very Universe itself gives us "encouragement" when we ask it through experiment "How well are we going, are we still on course?"

Anyone can be a mentor and anyone can be a judge of these matters and decide what is best for all of us. If people like to contribute to this discussion their views should be heard and we should all listen. However....This is not a court of law but a forum. This means we are not passing ultimate judgment but we are gathering "forensic evidence". The answers and the questions should not be decided by one judgmental individual no matter how qualified or "By twelve good men and true" picked from among our peers.

I have discussed here in this thread previously... The virtue and the error of Kurt Gödel. He proved from a philosophical viewpoint that we are unable to arrive at any ultimate truths through building on any human framework of logical propositions. Does this mean that a search for "truth" is then futile? It most certainly is if this is the kind of truth for which you search. There is a common "need" for g*ds and administration of the knowledge that gives access to them by the "high priests". Ask yourselves deep down could you live without all assurance that beneath it "all" there is some ultimate meaning. Be you Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, or Jew or any other denomination most will admit if they are truthful that they absolutely need something to fill that void.

It says more about this point further on...
Quoting from this theory... set theory is ultimately mathematically inconsistent and any theory based on number systems is internally inconsistent. This goes doubly for mathematical analysis... you all remember that pedantic and recursive process that seems to give "certainty" ... the ultimate proof that what we are doing is "internally consistent". At some time you must have all have some doubts that this "search" for human "perfection" or wisdom would bear "ultimate fruit"... Think again. It is all internally flawed and has recently been shown to be so. It is as flawed as the Science of Phrenology, the reading of bumps on your head.

"David Hilbert's second problem posed in 1900 as one of his 23 problems. It asks for a proof that arithmetic is consistent..... As Maxwell Smart would say... "Missed it by that much".

Allen Turing, another great mathematician, proposed an extension to Gödel's ideas... "Gödel's theorem has another interpretation in the language of computer science. In first-order logic, theorems are computably enumerable: you can write a computer program that will eventually generate any valid proof. You can ask if they have the stronger property of being recursive: can you write a computer program to definitively determine if a statement is true or false? Gödel's theorem says that in general you cannot."

So why am I rehashing this old chestnut over again? I would remind everyone that all these great men, who were all very deep thinkers, all showed that Mathematics is no strong basis for a "Theory of Everything" since it would be easy to show that any Mathematically provable "Theory of Everything" is not a theory of everything at all. It is just another mathematical theory. The "shut-up and calculate" adage is empty and baseless. It is a "pastime" that assures the diligent worker that he/she is gainfully employed. Mathematics in the end will "prove" nothing regarding the inner nature of an entire Universe simply because the Universe is truly bigger than all of us... physically and philosophically.

What I have said before and I will say again is we have a way out of this dilemma. We must recognize this "tendency" in ourselves to reach for the "Island of stability"... the still center... the human g*d created in the image we find most personally pleasing. To achieve this purpose we need someone to trust to take us out of the confusion into the "promised land"... A new Moses.

Well sorry folks ... there is no new Moses and any human theory will be ultimately flawed and lead to intellectual cul-de-sacs. IMHO the West is reaching one of these "cul-de-sacs" right now and like frogs in a bowl of gradually warming water we are all being cooked alive in our own "greenhouse gases" while we discuss the latest mindless soap opera on TV. The flaw starts as soon as we begin to become complacent. We are most assuredly very very complacent about our methods of analysis and what we hold as proof. As David Hilbert once (almost recently) said "We must not believe those, who today with philosophical bearing and deliberative tone prophesy the fall of culture and accept the ignorabimus (Meaning: "we do not know and will not know"). For us there is no ignorabimus, and in my opinion none whatever in natural science. In opposition to the foolish ignorabimus I offer our slogan:We must know — we shall know!"... Oops!.. Thank you Dr. Strangelove... the height of Mathematical and Scientific Hubris. We all know and understand slogans. That one eventually got etched on his tombstone.

Gödel, a true mental fruitcake, proved that Hilbert was dead wrong. Even Allen Turing, a flawed mathematical genius, proved that we cannot build machines to solve all our problems for us... not even Quantum Computers can do that, you just got to think for yourselves. All these individuals lived long enough to see that the "Triumph of the Will" of Nazi Germany was deeply flawed. We have similar hubris today that is afoot in the world. These are all belief systems just like our religions. So what is left is the politics of science and the politics of thought. What we are permitted to think or not think. A policy of "containment"... Remember what Winston Churchill said "Keep science on tap not on top"... with this logic he personally orchestrated the disassembly of the Colossus Computer into the smallest components and then had them all purposefully destroyed so that the future could never again "invent" these "damned computing machines". The rest is history... the failed history of a once great progressive nation. You need actual examples in history so that we can all learn from them... However you are not forced to learn from them.
User posted image

Cheers

I believe the same thing you do, science cannot simply be a case of majority rule. There are ways to go about analyzing things scientifically, finding proof of a hypothesis etc. It's possible Goedel and Turing were flawed in their analysis of mathematics and artificial intelligence. Their arguments for the inability of computers to solve theorems and other problems seems to be based entirely on generating permutations and combinations of symbols as mindlessly as the proverbial monkeys with typewriters recreating the complete works of Shakespeare. If artificially intelligent machines have real intelligence they might be capable of understanding things in the same way we do.

Good Elf
Hi Neil,

QUOTE (Neil Fabstein+)
I believe the same thing you do, science cannot simply be a case of majority rule. There are ways to go about analyzing things scientifically, finding proof of a hypothesis etc. It's possible Goedel and Turing were flawed in their analysis of mathematics and artificial intelligence. Their arguments for the inability of computers to solve theorems and other problems seems to be based entirely on generating permutations and combinations of symbols as mindlessly as the proverbial monkeys with typewriters recreating the complete works of Shakespeare. If artificially intelligent machines have real intelligence they might be capable of understanding things in the same way we do.
I agree with you and yet I think that the world must remain "participatory" where man must continue to be "in touch" with his natural world as well as "in step" with his technology. If machines begin to be intelligent then the value of a man is in "how" he thinks not "how much" he thinks.

It seems to me that these "flawed" humans have convincingly proven to me that Mathematics is not to be relied upon to determine the fate of any human enterprise. The meaning in which I meant "flawed" was in their private lives not in the quality of their "mathematics". The bulk of all that we humans know and understand cannot be summarized by mathematical equations, nor through the wonders of pure analytical geometry. The qualities of our world's civilization all originated from inside the creative minds of a few thinkers that imagined outside the equations and saw a better world.

While science places so much promise in mathematics and in great computing "wonders" it is not in pure mathematics or in technological "wonders" that science rests but on the imagination of each and every one of us. What we can imagine is all that limits us since we invent the maths to convince us that what we have imagined can be realized. The best minds in the world seem to have all disappeared into the advertising and marketing areas and also into the stock exchange. They no longer waste their time with "science" since they have lost that sense of wonder. It was the Rev. Walter Wink who said "Without a vision, the people perish". The car, the plane, Einstein's Relativity, Electronic Circuitry, Computers, LASERS, Space Ships are all ideas that came before the mathematics... Mathematicians did not invent any of these things. The internet is also something that came together not through mathematics but through a vision of the world being linked. Most of those who wrote the programs and developed the technology were not mathematicians but simple technicians as was Tommy Flowers, the Inventor of the Colossus Computer... A simple worker in the Post Office with a public school education... despised by Churchill for his ingenuity and described by him as "a common upstart that did not know his place". Yet it was Tommy that had the vision, not Churchill. It was to Tommy that Alan Turing and Bletchley Park turned to design and to build the most powerful electronic programmable decryption device the world had ever seen... The first truly fully electronic digital computer. Still Britain buried Flowers and the Computer as deeply in history as it was possible to do.

You all must realize that Charles Babbage invented the Computer in the early 19th century and other earlier devices were perfected even as early as the end of the 18th Century. Everything in modern computers was functionally in place by 1849, yet this was not to be because mankind's imagination was not yet capable of the vision required to make it a reality.
User posted image
Here is a fully functional Programmable version of Babbage's Computer built using his blueprints and using the technology of the times. Everything is there right down to the punched card program, keyboard input and printer output. The ancient Greeks were up to the task and they built the Antikythera Computer which was every bit as complex as many of these 19th Century devices but also "before its time".
user posted image
What you see here is a device that computed the position of the planets and the stars and predicted the phases of the moon and all the eclipses of the Sun and the Moon in about 150 BC.

I would venture to say that all the best that man can achieve will first appear in his mind as a dream and then the beat of men will make those dreams come true. Einstein was also one of those flawed humans, yet without the flaws they probably would not be human.
QUOTE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Things_to_Come+)
H. G. Wells... The Shape of Things to Come
By 2036, mankind lives in gigantic underground cities. Everytown is one of them (the only one shown, with no information given on any others - or if there even are others), and the first flight to the Moon is about to be launched from a space gun nearby. However, Luddites among the population fear this new technology, lead by a sculptor who claims mankind needs a "rest" from further technological development, and that shooting people into the cold of space is not "natural". They start a riot, trying to destroy the space gun before it can be fired. The head scientist Cabal (the great grandson of the pilot in the previous section of the film, and also played by Massey) explains that the crowds are misguided and that technology has in fact saved humanity. He launches the space ship with his daughter and the daughter's boyfriend as the crew, and the blast from the launch knocks the crowd back. The film ends with Massey's character delivering a eulogy to the idea of Progress and man's quest for knowledge, claiming that if Man is merely an Animal then he must fight for every scrap of happiness he can, but if he is something more then he must strive for more...
“No, the world will never be safe for man - and there's no happiness in safety. Our choice is limited: either the whole Universe or nothing.”
...Taken from the original "uncut" version.
user posted image


Cheers
Confused2
Imho the intention was to give some of the 'quieter' contributors a fair hearing. Even the people who contribute most frequently are making no progress because they (myself included) are seeking ways round the critic (this may involve repetition!) instead of addressing the criticism directly.

My personal summary of some of the ideas 'on the table'..
Good Elf - reciprocal space based on what I believe to be an implicit misunderstanding of the way the Fourier transforms work. Any attempt to draw attention to the possible misunderstanding is ignored so no progress possible
Laserlight - the refractive index of space is modified by the presence of matter. The experimental evidence (more than one peak in the DSE pattern) is ignored so no progress possible.
TRoc - Something to do with frequencies .. assumes non-linearity where none (in general) exists so no progress possible
Montec - Classical, aether based, assumes the train moves and the station stays in the same place .. no progress possible.
Jal - structured space does not explain the observed isotropy of space .. no progress possible.
Why Not? Currently as Jal.
Confused2 - A finite Planck's constant predicts experimental results which others choose to interpret as 'something else' so no progress possible.

Best wishes - C2.
jal
Hi C2!
Let’s clarify you statement
QUOTE
Jal - structured space does not explain the observed isotropy of space .. no progress possible.
Why Not? Currently as Jal.

Isotropy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotropic
Isotropic radiation has the same intensity regardless of the direction of measurement, and an isotropic field exerts the same action regardless of how the test particle is oriented.
-----------
Isotropic coordinates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotropic_coordinates
In the theory of Lorentzian manifolds, spherically symmetric spacetimes admit a family of nested round spheres
-------------
Spherically symmetric spacetime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherically_symmetric_spacetime
A spherically symmetric spacetime is one whose isometry group contains a subgroup which is isomorphic to the (rotation) group SO(3) and the orbits of this group are 2-dimensional spheres (2-spheres). The isometries are then interpreted as rotations and a spherically symmetric spacetime is often described as one whose metric is "invariant under rotations". The spacetime metric induces a metric on each orbit 2-sphere (and this induced metric must be a multiple of the metric of a 2-sphere).
Spherical symmetry is a characteristic feature of many solutions of Einstein's field equations of general relativity, especially the Schwarzschild solution. A spherically symmetric spacetime can be characterised in another way, namely, by using the notion of Killing vector fields, which, in a very precise sense, preserve the metric.
-----------
Rotation group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation_group
In mechanics and geometry, the rotation group is the group of all rotations about the origin of 3-dimensional Euclidean space R3 under the operation of composition.
By definition, a rotation about the origin is a linear transformation that preserves length of vectors and preserves orientation (i.e. handedness) of space. A length-preserving transformation which reverses orientation is called an improper rotation.
Composing two rotations results in another rotation; every rotation has a unique inverse rotation; and the identity map satisfies the definition of a rotation. Owing to the above properties, the set of all rotations is a group under composition. Moreover, the rotation group has a natural manifold structure for which the group operations are smooth; so it is in fact a Lie group. The rotation group is often denoted SO(3) for reasons explained below.
------------
Spherical harmonics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonics
In mathematics, the spherical harmonics are the angular portion of an orthogonal set of solutions to Laplace's equation represented in a system of spherical coordinates. Spherical harmonics are important in many theoretical and practical applications, particularly in the computation of atomic electron configurations, the representation of the gravitational field, geoid, and magnetic field of planetary bodies, characterization of the cosmic microwave background radiation and recognition of 3D shapes in computer graphics.
--------------
Make sure to read the links for more info....especially Spherical harmonics
jal
Laserlight
Hi All,

Thought that I'd share this valuable tool.


http://www.snapfiles.com/reviews/unit-conv.../unitconex.html

Montec
Hello Confused2, et al.

I believe that all trains can come to the station at the same time as long as they come from different directions. Its those trains that come from the same direction that cause problems.

smile.gif

TRoc
Hi all,



While I appreciate the idea of "stream-lining" our approaches, it is probably too much to ask of a group of volunteers that are all living busy lives, all in different parts of the world.


No one has the time to "moderate" consistently, and I, for one, do not have the time to "post the answer", and respond to every possible question, within the time frame of a week. A "week" is 2 or 3 posts for me, realistically. sad.gif


At any rate, we'll just continue as we have been, eh?


I'd like to comment of more "semantics", which really seems to "define" our ongoing problem: because Science has been built by very many separately developed parts, each "specialist" has their own set of tools, and definitions. Many that are left "growing in the garden", are indeed "weeds", but some "editors" like to leave these in, to convey the "awkwardness" of our historic approach. I think that this is a mistake; however, because we do not have the "final answer", this is tantamount to saying "we're not pulling any weeds because we are still deciding what weeds are", and that is probably just "the way it must be" (for now).


The show must go on! What are our teachers and professors to do, say "everyone is free to do what ever they want, because we haven't figured it all out yet"? NO, they must "teach" the theories, and in some fashion or another, act as though "we know", even though we don't (have the final answer). The kids would not pay any attention if this were not the case. At the higher levels, the "cracks" start to become visible, and the "nude emperor" can be peeked at by those who look hard.


GE has some good points about "math", especially the "abstract" kind, which is essentially, "infinitely interpretable", or at least, enough ways to cause really good arguments!


I agree with Godel, in that we can not ever have the "last answer", because the question has not even formed yet. That is in my own "twisted version". However, I find just enough philosophical room to squeeze this statement in:


This does NOT mean that we can not have a unified, self-consistent way of looking at everything we know NOW, and leave the door to "future questions" open, in the same self-consistent manner. A perspective that says "future questions can only be answered in terms relative to what already exists now" does not disagree with Godel.


If we have the "all inclusive", self-consistent model, and each and every time something "new" pops up, and is answered satisfactorily by said model, then that is our zenith. We do NOT have that now, so I find it rather pointless to go on about such things. We are trying to "clean up" the inconsistencies that are present in our current, competing models.


Semantics & Definitions:


GE and LL had a pretty good go at the "difference" between "standing" waves, and "traveling" waves superimposed. There is no difference, AFAIC, because they are "equivalent". The only "wrong" answer is to say that ONLY one or the other is valid. This is a perfect example of "dualistic": the duality is only observable from an opposite position, which requires "movement" (from your position) to see.


Because they are dynamically related, either perspective is ok; but it seems that adding another perspective, that is neither, is even better. Finding the "density" pattern in the longitudinal nodes, and transforming that into a perpendicular "intensity pattern" is a good "trick", but it seems to be inconsistent.


If we are seeing a transverse (to axis) pattern on the screen, why didn't we include the transverse mode pattern of the wave interferences? Certainly, the slit wall constitutes a boundary that we must include. The Talbot distance would seem to indicate that we must shift from "normal" (ideal) of TEM modes, given by the "plane wave" of "monochromatic frequency", and attempt a hybrid mode interpretation.


This is the curvature of the near field, possibly held together by "resonant unity", expanding in such a way as to decrease the possible paths, in a "beat by beat" transaction process, that recognizes the "convenience & efficiency" of reducing the number of paths to "full clicks" of "fundamental size" (whole cycles, wavelengths), and "half clicks".


If we assume that the fundamental frequency is the axis, then as we move away from the "new source" (slits), the "intensity", which we know to decrease by a factor of ¼ as the distance (from "new" source) r is doubled, takes on a "resonant" definition: it is the fundamental frequency, "continually revived".


When we interfere sources (>1), "something" is causing the inverse of the ISL. In the DSE, we find that the intensity at the axis is 4x (2a^2, a=1) that of the "side lobes". Fractional parts of the side lobes are re-directed to the fundamental, so that the amplitude is double there. This makes the side lobes "less intense", of course. These fractional parts can not be "symmetric", in the sense that the pairs can NOT be the same. This simple limit allows, for example, 1/4 and 3/4 to "pair up", but not the 1/2 points; these cancel to produce the "off phase" dark bands in the fringe pattern. [this is from the side lobe's perspective, or the straight line from center of slit to screen]


These fractional inverse symmetries are equivalent to transverse modes. Symmetric positions left or right of the axis can NOT be "in phase". When you combine this with the idea that the fundamental frequency IS the axis, the same left or right interval taken from those symmetric positions will have frequencies that are + or - by the same ratio.


This leaves an interpretation that says that the frequency of the axis will reduce by 1/2 at 90 deg (perpendicular, "left side"), or increase by 2 at the 180 deg (perpendicular, "right side"). These lines NEVER are involved "at the screen", in the fringe pattern, that is why it is INCORRECT to think of this as a "color change". The spread that you see in the fringe pattern represents a very "slight" change in frequency. Not only have these frequencies never been measured in the DSE, we are, even now, just BARELY able to measure frequency with the kind of "slight variation" (accuracy) that I am talking about.


In order to calculate this "angle limit", we just need to know f_0 (fundamental frequency), and the RI for f_0 (which gives v_0, the fundamental velocity). From there, measuring from the "sides closest to the axis" of each slit (thereby incorporating the separation of the slits) to the axis point at the screen, we set our inversely paired df (change in frequency) to arrive at the same place AND time, to superpose amplitudes. This is a very slight change from just the "path lengths" model.


It is critical to note, that these 2 "rays" are not traveling at the same speed. Their mean velocity is that which is calculated by the RI for that f , and that allows them to arrive simultaneously. This is with the agreement of the equi-spaced observers of the screen, perpendicular to the axis. Ones to the left of axis will see a "blue shifted" beam that is EXACTLY the opposite of the "red shifted" beam, as seen by observers on the other side of the axis. The Doppler shift is already in the RI calculations.


The next "pair" of simultaneous beams is the straight lines from slit centers, to screen. Relative to the axis, these frequencies are symmetric (equal) by the same rate: 1/2 . They are off phase, both relative to each other, and the axis (f_0). Remember that, in general, "off phase" produces beats (difference), while "in phase" produces sums. So, this off phase beat breaks the symmetry limit of 2, and quite easily explained, drops below our 1 octave limit in the visible band.


This explanation works for either a quasi-monochromatic laser beam, or a "white light" mixture, narrowed by the slit. The difference is in our perception, and "light gathering" ability. The term "black and white interference fringe" is a contradiction in itself, as noted by Mr. Berry. They are a product of the way that we see, as is the term "intensity". Mixtures of frequencies that "sum" to above our threshold are seen as "white", and those that "beat" immediately fall below perceptive range.


Either way, the original frequencies are still there. The equipment that we have designed to "measure" this, so we're not "depending on perception" (ha!), operates exactly the same. We set a threshold energy level (tuning out the "dark" current), so that essentially we have this result: everything "less than 1" = 0, and everything "over 1" = 1. I have given the full technical argument already, with our avalanche detectors, and the photoelectric effect.


I'm way past the ASL (attention span limit), as noted by maybe. Questions are always welcome.


regards,

T.Roc

Laserlight
Hi TRoc,

Interesting concept. Can you relate the DSE pattern to antenna side lobe energy
distribution? Is it an ordered "frequency shift" or a phase angle shift that
generates side lobe distributions?


Recall my circular phase diagrams, where the frequency from the source remains
the same but the phase angle shifts, due to circular/spherical rotation. Consider
what happens when 2 "offset" counter-rotating circles/spheres (for 2 slits) are
formed (according to the distance of the ISL ) and interfere at a fixed focal
length/plane, as happens at the DSE detection screen.

You wind up with + and - sidelobes equally spaced on each side of your
"fundamental frequency", or main power lobe (highest phase superposition amplitude).
The superpositions should follow the circular offsets, according to the
circular/spherical gap offset represented by the position of each of the slits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_lobe

LL
Confused2
Hi TRoc, Laserlight et al,
QUOTE (TRoc+)
The Talbot distance would seem to indicate that we must shift from "normal" (ideal) of TEM modes, given by the "plane wave" of "monochromatic frequency", and attempt a hybrid mode interpretation.

Looking at my post here http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=255829 we can see that the Talbot effect is simply the result of sinewaves of a single frequency and geometry. You can check the wavelength of 'waves' in the simulation using 2 slits and the DSE effect .. knowing the wavelength there are sufficient dimensions given to see that the repeat ('Talbot effect'?) is at 200 x wavelength .. the chances of there being two effects involving sinewaves at exactly the same distance is extremely small. In fact it is worse than extremely small because if there is another effect at 200 wavelengths then the problem becomes one of explaining why the other effect occurs and not the one due to superposition (as seen in the wave applet) .. what mechanism do you propose that suppresses the effect of superposition?
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Is it an ordered "frequency shift" or a phase angle shift that generates side lobe distributions?

I think he's trying to be nice (probably because he's a nice guy) .. a phase shift doesn't give a new frequency .. it is just a phase shifted version of the old one. ALMOST NOTHING will give you a new frequency without some way to introduce non-linearity into the experiment (eg high power lasers, BBO crystals and so on)
Best wishes - C2.

Laserlight
smile.gif
Laserlight
Hi All,

A curious thought has been nagging at me for the last several days and I am
not sure how to interpret it, or the implications that it may have on the quantum
wave model of a photon. I will try to describe/detail what is bothering me and
am asking for ideas that might help explain the "phenomenon".

We are all familiar with the photon EM wave model that we see on nearly every
reference document discussing the subject. The wave model shows the
electric and magnetic field oscillations that occur over some time interval. The
E field "waves", and the H field "waves" in synchronous, alternating periodic cycles
as the amplitude, and phase angle of each component varies over time. The
entire process over a time interval corresponds to wave frequency, and the "wavefunction".

user posted image


If we "freeze"/stop the wave action, and take a instantaneous time slice of the
wavefunction, we should see a straight vertical tensor that represents the E
component of the wave, and a horizontal/ortogonal H tensor forming a right
angle to the E line. The two "proportional" tensors converge to a "point" of
origin. The point of origin (crossover point) forms the vector energy centerline of
travel for the wavefunction, over time and distance.

What is bothering me, is that when time is stopped, and the E line and H tensors
are "frozen", the energy is not a wave, it is two separate, but complementary
energy "spikes".

If you can imagine taking sequential time slices of a wavefunction using stop
action for each sample, the E and H amplitude's and phase angle of each tensor
varies with its position along the timeline.

1. What causes this instantaneous tensor amplitude and phase angle change?

2. Why is it changing along the vector direction of travel?

Keep in mind that both tensors periodically oscillate, and sequentially varying their
amplitudes, and phases, in a rising and falling wave cycle over time. WHY?

3. Is it photon "spin" that is responsible for the periodicity of the repetitive tensor
variation and wave cycle over time? If so, how does this change the amplitude
and phase angle of the tensor, since it is a massless and chargeless energy
"entity".

LL
TRoc
Hi all,



Yes! LL is a nice guy. biggrin.gif


I understand you "electronic" guys, and your view on frequency.


The "phase shift" is RELATIVE to the fundamental frequency, and doesn't change it.


Maybe I should use another word for this "frequency dependent pattern" that I am trying to describe?


The frequency that is measured is the same as the fundamental frequency, the "carrier wave". The "side lobes" can be "resolved" by amplitude modulation, or.. by frequency modulation. We've had this conversation before.


No, beat-frequencies are not "real", unless you measure them inside their interaction zone, which we are not doing, unless we use crystals, and other NLM.


They create "virtual" nodes and anti-nodes, which, relative to f_0, are equivalent to "virtual" frequencies, with the "phase shift" relative to f_0. I believe that a "phase singularity", in terms of Huygens' principle, can be considered a "new source". I don't think that "spreading vectors" are going to be allowed. laugh.gif


It's all about the relative positions of the nodes and anti-nodes, and how they can represent other frequencies, by their geometry. This geometry is a "virtual medium", and when it changes, the nodes & anti-nodes go back to their original geometry. Just like when exiting a denser medium, the wave's apparent velocity (distance between nodes x time between nodes) "increases" back to its "fundamental" velocity.


I don't know if this helps. We need to try to work this out, so I can use terminology that doesn't "offend" the ways of other models.


ciao,

T.Roc

Laserlight
Hi TRoc,

I sense a bit of struggling to explain the "virtual frequency" concept, on your part.

Let me propose a "model".

If we pluck a single string on a guitar, it sends out waves that vibrate at a single
frequency....a tone.

If we simultaneously pluck the same string on a second guitar (same
frequency tone), the two tones (notes) will resonate at periodic intervals
from the separate guitar sources, according to their "separation", and the
detection distance from the sources. The oscillating sound waves that are
radiating from each source, spatially overlap and move in and out of synchrony,
creating a pleasing, harmonic modulation effect. (This is a 4d effect,
and actually could be considered two independent, but overlapping, 4d effects
that occur in the same space. WOW, relativity!)

This is similar to the DSE, where two optical frequencies are simulataneously
generated, and move in and out of resonance/timing phase according to the
distance separation between the slits, and the detection distance to the screen.
There is also the inverse squaring effect of the wave energy over distance, that
follows the rules of the ISL.

So, realistically, we have the same fundamental frequency originating from
each slit "source", it just changes amplitude at various radial geometric points in
space, over distance, where the radiating wave action is subject to
superposition "summing" that is taking place.

Keep in mind that the superposing wave energy is moving thru, and interacting in
4d space, but the visual pattern that we are observing is truncated by a 2d plane,
which "distorts" and changes the relative wave timing along the superposing
spherical wavefronts. It "shortens" part of the observed wave timing, along
the frontal surface of the 2d plane.

So, in actuality, we are observing a planar, cross-sectional timing slice of
the radiating spherical wavefronts. The energy timing, and phase relationship, of
the lines/bars that we are observing, are out of phase with the actual spherical
wavefronts because they have been "cut off"/truncated by the 2d plane of
observation/detection. In effect we lose wave timing and phase synchrony due to
the flat geometric 2d plane of observation. So, the observed "response" is out of
phase alignment with the actual position of the wave amplitude that should exist
at that instant of time. The wavefronts cannot fully develop and the energy that
they contain, are periodically "phase compressed" at the points of intersection
along the 2d planar surface.

Edit added:

Imagine what interference pattern that we would observe if the detection screen
was spherical, and matched the curvature of one of the spherical wavefronts
at the point of detection, or was spherically centered, equally between the slits.


LL
DavidD
I have one question about double slit expierement:
do those waves have energy in all points of wave or this wave when strock a n ecran became a electron or photon? In another words, do wave can push in many parts and directions?
TRoc
Hi all,


I meant to respond to a comment of LL's a while back. Included "just for fun".


QUOTE
..IMO they are not much different than looking at the "bunny" shapes
that can be observed in cloud formations..



What would you say, then, if we sent a remote retrieval into the cloud for a sample, and when it returned, we opened it to find a real bunny?

laugh.gif


Seriously, though, if we measure (collapse the wavefunction) at any of these Talbot distances, we get a replica of the "original". That is more causal than you are inferring.



Confused2 Posted on Today at 1:23 AM
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
..IMO they are not much different than looking at the "bunny" shapes
that can be observed in cloud formations..



What would you say, then, if we sent a remote retrieval into the cloud for a sample, and when it returned, we opened it to find a real bunny?

laugh.gif


Seriously, though, if we measure (collapse the wavefunction) at any of these Talbot distances, we get a replica of the "original". That is more causal than you are inferring.



Confused2 Posted on Today at 1:23 AM
..what mechanism do you propose that suppresses the effect of superposition?



Laserlight Posted on Today at 2:19 PM
QUOTE
If we simultaneously pluck the same string on a second guitar (same
frequency tone), the two tones (notes) will resonate at periodic intervals
from the separate guitar sources, according to their "separation", and the
detection distance from the sources.



LL just gave an example of "constructive interference". Those 2 same frequency notes will NOT beat. There is no difference between them to cause this. Their amplitudes will add, and we get.. louder sound. That's it. Yes, there are a few "trick" positions you can find where there is a "cancellation", and this is exactly the same as "path length" in the DSE. (unless you have Bose speakers!) wink.gif


But C2 wants to know, "how to make it stop", or suppress this +interference. Beats are the answer. If we take a light wave, and send it into a "deep clear medium" (the ocean), eventually it will be dampened out completely. If (by magic) we could place "air pockets" every so many meters down, this would not happen; the wave would get "recharged", so to speak.


Since water absorbs the visible spectrum better (I think) than almost anything else, this requires more explaining. It is the "free and random" movement of the H20 molecules, and no consistent path lengths that would allow "resonance", that ends the journey. This is a simple version of the explanation, of course. There are actually many things still not yet understood about water.


In air, sound works basically the same. It gets dampened over distance in this medium. In LL's example, of 2 degenerate frequencies, they will travel FURTHER than one of them alone, before dampening out. This is because of the increased intensity of resonant superposed waves. If we sent 2 slightly "off phase" frequencies in the same medium, they would travel even LESS distance. This is because they have "spatial separation", which is counter to "perfect" superposition. Some of their energy is lost due to "destructive" interference. This is represented by the "beat frequency", whose energy must go back into the medium (conservation) if it can not add to the wavefront. The only way for this NOT to happen, is if the beats reinforce the fundamental. That is our "non-spreading" wave; soliton, chord, etc.


Part of these effects are opposite: the velocity of light decreases in any other medium than "free space", and sound moves faster in (most) every medium other than air. So, the velocity change that occurs in a medium, for either type of wave, can be said to be changed by the density of the medium. The density would be the "average" path length between "relay stations", which are our atom absorbers. (free electrons have an effect too, but we'll save that)


The RATIO of our wavelength, or distance between nodes (or anti nodes), to the path length is the key. If something causes our medium to change enough, then the path lengths will change too. The OTHER way to change this ratio, is to change the relative phase, or distance/time between nodes. These represent very well studied parts of the EM wave, namely the separation between "peaks".


Every wave has node at the 1/2 way mark, and 2 anti-nodes, one at the 1/4, and one at the 3/4 position. The 1/4 is a peak +phase, and the 3/4 is a "peak -phase". We know that these can NOT exist in the same time and space; they "repel" each other, which is the cause for our constant ratio that we call "velocity of light".


So, superposition can only cause one of three things to the "fundamental" distance (wavelength, w_0): 1. perfect (harmonic) positioning strengthens the amplitude, 2. if a superposed wave "squeezes" an extra "node set" (cycle) in there, a new node the w_0 is stretched longer (lower frequency), and 3. if a "new set of nodes" is outside the w_0, then this can compress w_0 (higher frequency).


This is what I mean by "shades of resonance", or by 100% resonant, etc. The saving feature to this, is the LIMIT. There can NOT be a "50%" resonant value, because that is already covered as a harmonic of 100%. All these interactions take place between "1 and 2". 100% could be either at w_0 /2 , or w_0 x2. This is the time to mention that the MINIMUM, or fundamental geometry is a triangle, which requires 3 waves, in "closed space". Two notes are just "intervals", and DO require a 1:1 ratio to be called "resonant". This is the "standard" version/definition that is used in Physics.


Once again, Pythagoras has already noted this relationship, in his "triples", which are also connected to Fibonacci series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_triple

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If we simultaneously pluck the same string on a second guitar (same
frequency tone), the two tones (notes) will resonate at periodic intervals
from the separate guitar sources, according to their "separation", and the
detection distance from the sources.



LL just gave an example of "constructive interference". Those 2 same frequency notes will NOT beat. There is no difference between them to cause this. Their amplitudes will add, and we get.. louder sound. That's it. Yes, there are a few "trick" positions you can find where there is a "cancellation", and this is exactly the same as "path length" in the DSE. (unless you have Bose speakers!) wink.gif


But C2 wants to know, "how to make it stop", or suppress this +interference. Beats are the answer. If we take a light wave, and send it into a "deep clear medium" (the ocean), eventually it will be dampened out completely. If (by magic) we could place "air pockets" every so many meters down, this would not happen; the wave would get "recharged", so to speak.


Since water absorbs the visible spectrum better (I think) than almost anything else, this requires more explaining. It is the "free and random" movement of the H20 molecules, and no consistent path lengths that would allow "resonance", that ends the journey. This is a simple version of the explanation, of course. There are actually many things still not yet understood about water.


In air, sound works basically the same. It gets dampened over distance in this medium. In LL's example, of 2 degenerate frequencies, they will travel FURTHER than one of them alone, before dampening out. This is because of the increased intensity of resonant superposed waves. If we sent 2 slightly "off phase" frequencies in the same medium, they would travel even LESS distance. This is because they have "spatial separation", which is counter to "perfect" superposition. Some of their energy is lost due to "destructive" interference. This is represented by the "beat frequency", whose energy must go back into the medium (conservation) if it can not add to the wavefront. The only way for this NOT to happen, is if the beats reinforce the fundamental. That is our "non-spreading" wave; soliton, chord, etc.


Part of these effects are opposite: the velocity of light decreases in any other medium than "free space", and sound moves faster in (most) every medium other than air. So, the velocity change that occurs in a medium, for either type of wave, can be said to be changed by the density of the medium. The density would be the "average" path length between "relay stations", which are our atom absorbers. (free electrons have an effect too, but we'll save that)


The RATIO of our wavelength, or distance between nodes (or anti nodes), to the path length is the key. If something causes our medium to change enough, then the path lengths will change too. The OTHER way to change this ratio, is to change the relative phase, or distance/time between nodes. These represent very well studied parts of the EM wave, namely the separation between "peaks".


Every wave has node at the 1/2 way mark, and 2 anti-nodes, one at the 1/4, and one at the 3/4 position. The 1/4 is a peak +phase, and the 3/4 is a "peak -phase". We know that these can NOT exist in the same time and space; they "repel" each other, which is the cause for our constant ratio that we call "velocity of light".


So, superposition can only cause one of three things to the "fundamental" distance (wavelength, w_0): 1. perfect (harmonic) positioning strengthens the amplitude, 2. if a superposed wave "squeezes" an extra "node set" (cycle) in there, a new node the w_0 is stretched longer (lower frequency), and 3. if a "new set of nodes" is outside the w_0, then this can compress w_0 (higher frequency).


This is what I mean by "shades of resonance", or by 100% resonant, etc. The saving feature to this, is the LIMIT. There can NOT be a "50%" resonant value, because that is already covered as a harmonic of 100%. All these interactions take place between "1 and 2". 100% could be either at w_0 /2 , or w_0 x2. This is the time to mention that the MINIMUM, or fundamental geometry is a triangle, which requires 3 waves, in "closed space". Two notes are just "intervals", and DO require a 1:1 ratio to be called "resonant". This is the "standard" version/definition that is used in Physics.


Once again, Pythagoras has already noted this relationship, in his "triples", which are also connected to Fibonacci series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_triple

Starting with 5, every other Fibonacci number is the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle with integer sides, or in other words, the largest number in a Pythagorean triple. The length of the longer leg of this triangle is equal to the sum of the three sides of the preceding triangle in this series of triangles, and the shorter leg is equal to the difference between the preceding bypassed Fibonacci number and the shorter leg of the preceding triangle.

The first triangle in this series has sides of length 5, 4, and 3. Skipping 8, the next triangle has sides of length 13, 12 (5 + 4 + 3), and 5 (8 − 3). Skipping 21, the next triangle has sides of length 34, 30 (13 + 12 + 5), and 16 (21 − 5). This series continues indefinitely.


also worth noting:

QUOTE
Infinite sums over reciprocal Fibonacci numbers can sometimes be evaluated in terms of theta functions.
..
and there is a nice nested sum of squared Fibonacci numbers giving the reciprocal of the golden ratio



What I am proposing, is that we have a new "golden ratio", that applies not to 2 terms, but to 3 or more, and has the ability to "gage" resonance in a way that has not been done before.



Here is a visual to see how/why the relative movement between oscillators can either "reinforce", or strongly dampen.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mode
User posted image

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Infinite sums over reciprocal Fibonacci numbers can sometimes be evaluated in terms of theta functions.
..
and there is a nice nested sum of squared Fibonacci numbers giving the reciprocal of the golden ratio



What I am proposing, is that we have a new "golden ratio", that applies not to 2 terms, but to 3 or more, and has the ability to "gage" resonance in a way that has not been done before.



Here is a visual to see how/why the relative movement between oscillators can either "reinforce", or strongly dampen.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mode
User posted image

Normal modes in quantum mechanics

Usually, when involving some sort of potential, the wavefunction is decomposed into a superposition of energy eigenstates, each oscillating with frequency of  user posted image .




ciao,

T.Roc

TRoc
Hi all,


Welcome DavidD.
QUOTE
In another words, do wave can push in many parts and directions?



I think that the answer is "yes", but it can only "collapse" at one point (if you are talking about "just one photon").



Other tidbits that I have had meant to include. They may appear "off phase" at this time. tongue.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airgap

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
In another words, do wave can push in many parts and directions?



I think that the answer is "yes", but it can only "collapse" at one point (if you are talking about "just one photon").



Other tidbits that I have had meant to include. They may appear "off phase" at this time. tongue.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airgap

Airgap is an invention in microelectronic fabrication by IBM. By insulating copper wires within a chip with vacuum holes, capacitance can be minimized enabling chips to go faster or draw less power. A vacuum is believed to be the ultimate insulator for what is known as wiring capacitance, which occurs when two adjacent wires on a chip, draws electrical energy from one another, generating undesirable heat and slowing the speed at which data can move through a chip. IBM estimates that this technology alone can lead to 35% higher speeds in current flow or 15% lower power consumption.

When making the chips the entire wafer is prepared with a polymer material that when removed at a later stage leaves trillions of holes, just 20 nm in diameter, evenly spaced. Even though the name suggests that the holes are filled with air, they are in fact filled with nothing, vacuum.



Perhaps you've all heard, that "even between the electron (in orbit) and the nucleus, there is "no vacuum". I think that the absolute closest thing to "nothing" is the node of a closed form wave (non-spreading). At any rate, these 20nm holes are "less dense" of potential "absorbers" than the rest of the "medium". Note the increase in velocity, and the decrease in losses.



Maybe wanted to post this link, but couldn't. Some comments on that too.


http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/22097


QUOTE
The atoms were probed using a technique that was originally developed by Norman Ramsey from Harvard University, for which he shared the 1989 Nobel Prize for Physics. It involved firing a short pulse of microwaves at one position along the beam, followed - a few milliseconds later - by another short pulse further along the beam. Interference between the excitation of the atoms by the two probe pulses creates a set of fringes as a function of the microwave frequency. These interference fringes, the widths of which are inversely proportional to the interval between pulses, sub-divide the absorption profile of a single pulse, thereby increasing the spectral resolution.



How did these 2 spatially separated pulses "communicate"? THROUGH THE BEAM. This is why no amount of "chopping", or lowering the voltage, can create "non-communicating" pulses that might be interpreted as a "single photon". The "1-at-a-time-photon" is just a bad interpretation, saying "it must interfere with itself", because we deem it "isolated". BS! It is no more "isolated" (ie. in vacuum) than our electron and nucleus. All that is happening there, is "slow motion" build up of the same diffraction fringe pattern. If they were truly independent, AND only followed "probabilities", then WHY has NO ONE EVER ran a "failed" DSE? Certainly, it has been done enough times for the predicted "anomalies" to have occurred? Shouldn't we have seen a "groundhog" or bunny by now?


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The atoms were probed using a technique that was originally developed by Norman Ramsey from Harvard University, for which he shared the 1989 Nobel Prize for Physics. It involved firing a short pulse of microwaves at one position along the beam, followed - a few milliseconds later - by another short pulse further along the beam. Interference between the excitation of the atoms by the two probe pulses creates a set of fringes as a function of the microwave frequency. These interference fringes, the widths of which are inversely proportional to the interval between pulses, sub-divide the absorption profile of a single pulse, thereby increasing the spectral resolution.



How did these 2 spatially separated pulses "communicate"? THROUGH THE BEAM. This is why no amount of "chopping", or lowering the voltage, can create "non-communicating" pulses that might be interpreted as a "single photon". The "1-at-a-time-photon" is just a bad interpretation, saying "it must interfere with itself", because we deem it "isolated". BS! It is no more "isolated" (ie. in vacuum) than our electron and nucleus. All that is happening there, is "slow motion" build up of the same diffraction fringe pattern. If they were truly independent, AND only followed "probabilities", then WHY has NO ONE EVER ran a "failed" DSE? Certainly, it has been done enough times for the predicted "anomalies" to have occurred? Shouldn't we have seen a "groundhog" or bunny by now?


Indeed, atomic clocks are now so good that time and frequency can be measured more precisely than any other physical quantity.


This fact is a "big plus" for my method, which looks at the natural pattern in the "frequency equivalent" of mass or energy.


QUOTE
There are three main elements to an optical clock. The first is a highly stable reference frequency provided by a narrow optical absorption in an atom or ion. This "clock transition" will typically have a natural line width of a few hertz or less. The second element of the clock is a laser, known as a "local oscillator", which should also have a very narrow line width so that it does not broaden the atomic transition. The third component is some way of counting the extremely rapid oscillations of the local oscillator; these oscillations are the "ticks" of the clock. A device called a femtosecond comb is used for this part of the device (see "femtosecond comb").



User posted image
The ticks of an optical clock - which occur at a frequency fopt - can be counted using a "femtosecond comb". This device consists of a series of regularly spaced modes, like the teeth of a comb. The mode spacing frep and the offset frequency f0 are referenced to a microwave standard. The value of f0 can be determined by taking a low-frequency infrared mode with a value (nfrep + f0), passing it through a nonlinear crystal so that its frequency doubles to (2nfrep + 2f0) and then mixing it with a green mode with a frequency of (2nfrep + f0). The two signals form a beat at a frequency f0, which can be measured with a photodiode. The frequency fopt of an optical standard equals pfrep + f0 + fbeat, where fbeat is the beat frequency between the optical standard and the nearest comb mode p.



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
There are three main elements to an optical clock. The first is a highly stable reference frequency provided by a narrow optical absorption in an atom or ion. This "clock transition" will typically have a natural line width of a few hertz or less. The second element of the clock is a laser, known as a "local oscillator", which should also have a very narrow line width so that it does not broaden the atomic transition. The third component is some way of counting the extremely rapid oscillations of the local oscillator; these oscillations are the "ticks" of the clock. A device called a femtosecond comb is used for this part of the device (see "femtosecond comb").



User posted image
The ticks of an optical clock - which occur at a frequency fopt - can be counted using a "femtosecond comb". This device consists of a series of regularly spaced modes, like the teeth of a comb. The mode spacing frep and the offset frequency f0 are referenced to a microwave standard. The value of f0 can be determined by taking a low-frequency infrared mode with a value (nfrep + f0), passing it through a nonlinear crystal so that its frequency doubles to (2nfrep + 2f0) and then mixing it with a green mode with a frequency of (2nfrep + f0). The two signals form a beat at a frequency f0, which can be measured with a photodiode. The frequency fopt of an optical standard equals pfrep + f0 + fbeat, where fbeat is the beat frequency between the optical standard and the nearest comb mode p.



One of the key challenges in building an optical clock is to count the "ticks" - the oscillation of the light source. However, light oscillates so fast - roughly once every femtosecond (10-15 s) - that it would be impossible to count individual oscillations using any conventional electronic device. The solution is to use a device called a "femtosecond comb".

..

The frequency of any line in the comb is an integer multiple of the comb spacing (nfrep) plus an offset frequency (f0), which depends on the difference in the group velocity and phase velocity within the laser cavity. The all-important tick rate, fopt, is related to frep and f0, both of which can be determined experimentally.

The comb spacing, or repetition rate frep, can be measured from the beat signal between adjacent comb modes (figure 4). The simplest way of determining f0 is to have a comb that spans a complete optical octave, i.e. a factor of two in frequency.
..

- the comb can be used to measure the frequency of an optical standard fopt. This is done by determining the beat frequency between the optical frequency and the precisely known frequency of the nearest comb mode.

..

To do any better, we will have to work even harder at stabilizing environmental factors such as magnetic and electric fields. The effects of general relativity will also become highly significant; after all, two clocks that are separated by just 1 cm in height will have transition frequencies that are gravitationally redshifted by one part in 1018 with respect to each other.





To LL's "sidelobe" comment:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_lobe

User posted image


I hope that the picture here, is worth a thousand words!


The "main beam" is the "fundamental". The "grating lobes" are the dispersion/diffraction from the slits. The principles of the "frequency comb" are well represented here.


Between any "peaks", we have a "steps" that have their minimum at the center (1/2 way). If we "compare" 2 peaks, and move step by step towards the center (limit), we will find that they have inverse ratios. IE the first step to the right of the left peak, might be 1/8, while the first step to the left, from the right peak, would be 7/8, so that the simple sum (limit) is 1/1. The center limit is always 1:2 ratio.


So, call it what you will, but since the "peak" has a frequency, then the other values can be represented by "fractional" frequencies, or "wavelets".


Does anyone think that the "dark current" that is rejected in the traditional "counting", is set "loose enough" (sloppy) so that frequencies of 1/2 are counted? Hell no! They set that parameter as close as possible to the frequency equivalent of the "fundamental". How about "double the energy"? No way.


How many legs of QM do I have to chop off before you see the problem?


Ad hoc starts are not "bad" unto themselves. It is when they are proven to NOT be unique, that is the "hole in the dike".


"Hop on the bus, Gus".

biggrin.gif


regards,

T.Roc



janrinze
Hi all..

we must remember that radiation (E=hf) is generated when a charged particle accelerates/decelerates..

all the dipole stuff is just a mere variation of this .. (e.g. 2 particles with opposite charge..)

The entire problem stared when we needed to explain why orbitals are stable.. (electrons are constantly accelerated/decelerated in every 'Cartesian' orientation.)

So.. yes there are waves .. yes they interfere and yes we can create may different and interesting patterns with that..

Also the difference between longitudinal waves and transversal waves have now been through this forum..

BUT .. we still lack the insight into what makes a wave able to spread out but converge to one point when needed..

I for one am really amazed about the fact that we can easily do calculations on waves and particles.. inverse square law.. constant speed of light .. conservation of energy etc.. but we totally have no comprehension of the concepts of causality and 'space-time' ..

So in all .. I hope to see more of the postings and find the gems hidden in them..

Jan Rinze.


TRoc
Hi all,



Hey! I'm on a roll. The meeting of chance, and preparedness.


Some info regarding the more "GE -like" interpretation. I value your input, GE.


Integer, fractional, and fractal Talbot effects
M. Berry, S Klein
Journal of Modern Optics, 1996

(pg 20)
QUOTE
With finite N, there is a transition from the Fresnel to the Fraunhoffer regime.

..

As L increases, the sum of unit vectors in the complex plane, of S_L(&), representing the phase and intensity of the Talbot wave,  traces out curves of fantastic complexity, whose structural elements, 'curlicues', are discreet generalizations of the Cornu spiral.   The curves have a hierarchal structure that depends sensitively on the arithmetic nature of the Talbot position..



Optical vortices evolving from helicoidal integer and fractional phase steps
M Berry
Journal of Optics A, 2004

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
With finite N, there is a transition from the Fresnel to the Fraunhoffer regime.

..

As L increases, the sum of unit vectors in the complex plane, of S_L(&), representing the phase and intensity of the Talbot wave,  traces out curves of fantastic complexity, whose structural elements, 'curlicues', are discreet generalizations of the Cornu spiral.   The curves have a hierarchal structure that depends sensitively on the arithmetic nature of the Talbot position..



Optical vortices evolving from helicoidal integer and fractional phase steps
M Berry
Journal of Optics A, 2004

Abstract
The evolution of a wave starting at z = 0 as exp(iαφ) (0  φ < 2π), i.e. with unit amplitude and a phase step 2πα on the positive x axis, is studied exactly and paraxially. For integer steps (α = n), the singularity at the origin r = 0 becomes for z > 0 a strength n optical vortex, whose neighbourhood is described in detail. Far from the axis, the wave is the sum of exp{i(αφ + kz)} and a diffracted wave from r = 0. The paraxial wave and the wave far from the vortex are incorporated into a uniform approximation that describes the wave with high accuracy, even well into the evanescent zone. For fractional α, no fractional-strength vortices can propagate; instead, the interference between an additional diffracted wave, from the phase step discontinuity, with exp{i(αφ + kz)} and the wave scattered from
r = 0, generates a pattern of strength-1 vortex lines, whose total (signed) strength Sα is the nearest integer to α. For small |α − n|, these lines are close to the z axis. As α passes n + 1/2, Sα jumps by unity, so a vortex is born. The mechanism involves an infinite chain of alternating-strength vortices close to the positive x axis for α = n + 1/2, which annihilate in pairs differently whenα > n + 1/2 and whenα < n + 1/2. There is a partial analogy between α and the quantum flux in the Aharonov–Bohm effect.


QUOTE
Some of the results of this work were anticipated on the basis of a partial analogy with the Aharonov–Bohm (AB) effect in quantum mechanics [6]. The geometry is slightly different in the two cases. Instead of a phase step originating at a singular point in three dimensions, AB is diffraction from a singular line of magnetic flux, which in quantum units has the value α.

..

Instead of the physical singularity at the flux line R = 0, we have phase singularities at the vortices.  In AB, the emphasis is generally in the far field, that is, infinitely far from the flux line, but the flux line itself is a vortex [14], whose strength is the nearest integer to α.

..

In AB, as here, the singularity strength increases by unity as α passes through m + 1/2. The mechanism in AB is that when α = m + 1/2 a nodal line issues from the flux line and reaches to infinity. As α passes m + 1/2, each wavefront, that is, each line argψ = constant(mod 2π), reconnects with its neighbour, a process that has been observed [14] in a waterwave analogue of AB, in which surface ripples are diffracted by a bathtub vortex. AB is a degenerate version of the problem
considered here, in the sense that the nodal line for α = m+1/2 replaces the infinite chain of vortices, and for general α the total AB vortex strength is concentrated at R = 0.



The Aharonov–Bohm wave and the Cornu spiral
M Berry, A Shelankov
Journal of Physics A, 1999

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Some of the results of this work were anticipated on the basis of a partial analogy with the Aharonov–Bohm (AB) effect in quantum mechanics [6]. The geometry is slightly different in the two cases. Instead of a phase step originating at a singular point in three dimensions, AB is diffraction from a singular line of magnetic flux, which in quantum units has the value α.

..

Instead of the physical singularity at the flux line R = 0, we have phase singularities at the vortices.  In AB, the emphasis is generally in the far field, that is, infinitely far from the flux line, but the flux line itself is a vortex [14], whose strength is the nearest integer to α.

..

In AB, as here, the singularity strength increases by unity as α passes through m + 1/2. The mechanism in AB is that when α = m + 1/2 a nodal line issues from the flux line and reaches to infinity. As α passes m + 1/2, each wavefront, that is, each line argψ = constant(mod 2π), reconnects with its neighbour, a process that has been observed [14] in a waterwave analogue of AB, in which surface ripples are diffracted by a bathtub vortex. AB is a degenerate version of the problem
considered here, in the sense that the nodal line for α = m+1/2 replaces the infinite chain of vortices, and for general α the total AB vortex strength is concentrated at R = 0.



The Aharonov–Bohm wave and the Cornu spiral
M Berry, A Shelankov
Journal of Physics A, 1999

Our purpose is to describe and explain a remarkable property of the Aharonov–Bohm (AB) wave ψAB(r,α) ..  has a natural and convenient geometrical representation in terms of the Cornu spiral (Fresnel integral) of optics.



After reading that paper, you'll be able to use the term "cornufied". unsure.gif


Besides the obvious "gold mine" that Mr Berry represents, he also shows the "self-consistent career" that must be taken, in order to "single-handedly" (not literally) make a change in Science. It is not always done in a single paper (or year).


I've also dug up a "new" term, that is "not new". Mr. Berry published another treasure that has gone forgotten: the Airy packet. That is the term that I will use from now on, as the "optical equivalent to the musical chord", since it should not raise as many eyebrows as the soliton reference.


Nonspreading Wavepackets
M Berry, NL Balazs
U of NY, Stony Brook 1978

QUOTE
We show that for a wave ψ in the form of an Airy function, the probability density lψl^2 propagates in free space without distortion and with constant acceleration.

..

Dispersion in the Schrodinger equation (embodying the ability of classical wave packets to move at different speeds) suggests that all wave packets must change their form as they propagate in free space.  And Ehrenfest's theorum (embodying Newton's second law for classical particles) suggests that no wave packet can accelerate in free space.

It therefore comes as no surprise to discover a wave packet ψ(x,t) whose probability density lψ(x,t)l^2 not only remains unchanged in form, but also continually accelerates, even though no force acts.


[tell that to Mr Boltzmann laugh.gif ]

Equations 1, 2, and 3 will give you all the details you need. (pg 1)


Then, he closes with this recommendation:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
We show that for a wave ψ in the form of an Airy function, the probability density lψl^2 propagates in free space without distortion and with constant acceleration.

..

Dispersion in the Schrodinger equation (embodying the ability of classical wave packets to move at different speeds) suggests that all wave packets must change their form as they propagate in free space.  And Ehrenfest's theorum (embodying Newton's second law for classical particles) suggests that no wave packet can accelerate in free space.

It therefore comes as no surprise to discover a wave packet ψ(x,t) whose probability density lψ(x,t)l^2 not only remains unchanged in form, but also continually accelerates, even though no force acts.


[tell that to Mr Boltzmann laugh.gif ]

Equations 1, 2, and 3 will give you all the details you need. (pg 1)


Then, he closes with this recommendation:

We think the Airy packet is worth introducing into elementary quantum mechanics courses.  Its unfamiliar properties, apparently contradicting the subject's folklore, provide a nontrivial illustration of the fact that a wave function corresponds to a family of orbits, and not a single particle.



I think, as GE also mentioned about the Talbot effect, that these things are purposefully left off the "menu", because they don't go with the main course.


No single particle-photon. Quantum premise is what..?


QUOTE
Moreover, the role played by the caustic shows dramatically,  how features of wave functions can be dominated by forms (envelopes of families of orbits, which can accelerate, even in empty space) rather than things (individual particles, which are constrained to move with constant velocity).



Recall that I wish to designate the "photon" as a verb, and not a noun, and that the basic form of a triangle dominates Resonance.

ph34r.gif

wink.gif


T.Roc

Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, janrinze, TRoc, Jal, Montec, Confused2, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, "THEY" and "THEY2" et al,

I will try once more to explain electromagnetism... If you have a question please ask and don't let this just go over your heads...
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
A curious thought has been nagging at me for the last several days and I am not sure how to interpret it, or the implications that it may have on the quantum wave model of a photon. I will try to describe/detail what is bothering me and am asking for ideas that might help explain the "phenomenon".
It is the mere realization that the propagation of light is "corpuscular" in nature and not a continuous wave as you seem to suggest by your understandable but still impossible "slicing" process noted below...
User posted image
... Click to enlarge...

Launch a single wavepacket from a single atomic dipole...
User posted image
... Click to run animation below...
http://web.mit.edu/course/urop/8.emfields/...ions/create.mov

This is a "step up" function that starts from nothing and launches a single photon packet from a single elementary dipole (with a fixed energy resource) then leaves the field in the inductive region "inflated"... In order that you can ready the system to launch another photon you must collapse this "residual field" by "deflating" the inductive field with a "step down" function. While the "dipole" in this state it cannot perform another photon release even if energy is available from the "far field", it is "reflecting". Together they form an impulse function... Notice how the inductive field remains linked to the source and the propagated energy forms closed loops and is dissociated from the source but continues to spread at the speed of light?

Of course this is the "retarded version" and it is also flattened into a sync function rather than a spiral function. This is for simplicity sake not because it is the one and only way to describe it. The first picture does not show spreading either ... for simplicity. The animation does show spreading.
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
What is bothering me, is that when time is stopped, and the E line and H tensors are "frozen", the energy is not a wave, it is two separate, but complementary energy "spikes".
If you can imagine taking sequential time slices of a wavefunction using stop action for each sample, the E and H amplitude's and phase angle of each tensor varies with its position along the timeline.
The variation along that direction should be considered as a spaceline and not a timeline since the progress of "time" relative to the speed of light is dependent of the relative velocity compared with the source velocity which is "implicitly unspoken" in that animation... and with that consideration the waveform is "immobile" in time simply filling the space and defining its geometry as it goes. All temporal "motion of charges" is confined to the source (evanescent region) and is not available to the far field where it is in the process of propagation. The "pretty moving picture" does not include a source and as drawn cannot include a source so there is no "motion" (read: progress of time) there. Read my lips... Special Relativity says all inertial frames of reference are equivalent. All observer frames will see light traveling at 3*10^8 M/s. This is "universal", all light spreads at ©. Leaving aside for the moment that you cannot actually observe these quanta "moving" without collapsing the electric and magnetic fields... and focusing on the far field only.. Careful scrutiny of your "animation" will surely convince you that nothing is really moving "inside the wave"... Nothing happening there the electric and magnetic fields are static and unchanging and the spreading is not increasing the electric and magnetic vectors inside the packets ... the "wave motion" is not a movement but a spreading in space and the wave is just the "reflection" of that spreading. It is the observer that carries the stopwatch not the wave. The electric and magnetic fields are "stationary fields" within their own frame in constant motion... the velocity of light.

It is working just like the animation itself... snapshots of this series of events would quickly tell you that the wave form, other than Inverse Square Law (ISL) spreading, is totally unchanging relative to your time. The ISL scaling is all that is happening. That scaling is the only property that indicates the frequency of the wave to all and any observers in relative motion with the emitting source. That frequency will depend on the stopwatch that the observer carries and its relation to the stopwatch at the source. That animation cannot be explained without the source.

Special Relativity is nothing other than an accounting of the relative velocity between a source of EM radiation and an observer frame in relative motion. Depending "only" on your relative velocity, your "scale" for the spherically spreading "wavelets" of light is what determines the frequency since the velocity of light (©) is always seen as being constant at © and so the amount of time for observations of successive wavefronts determines the "scale" of the EM radiation and its frequency. From the observers point of view of the spreading wavelets... If your clock is considered "normal" (and because we are very anthropically centered/self-centered) and the source clock as seen from your observer frame is running real slow ... you are moving away from the source at near to the speed of light and so we observe a lowered source frequency.

Conversely... If your clock is considered "normal" (and because we are very anthropically centered/self-centered) and the source clock as seen from your observer frame is running very fast ... you are moving towards the source at near to the speed of light and so we observe a heightened source frequency.

The source is however "unchanged" in all this and is constantly emitting one and only one frequency in its own frame of rest.... The observer (you) see these things and it is not a "perception" of the source where things are totally unchanged due to your chaotic personal motion and your personal accounting for time.

Ignoring "modes" and "reflections"... Light spreads from the source on the surface of a spreading sphere.

I would also like to call your attention to the fact that Laserlight's animation illustrates only what is happening along a single one dimensional line, presumably in a radial direction away from the source. You must also account for all the other directions in three dimensional space. That is why I always use this simple animation, compressed by zephir. which alway includes a source.
user posted image

It is a "no-brainer" that all consideration of electromagnetism must include sources and the observation of the "wave" in isolation as shown in laserlight's animation is "bunk". It is a "children's tool" and not an "educational tool" and as you indicate... simply creates confusion.

The inability to think about what is occurring leads people to be unthinking robots and accept things as if it was programming. I can't do anything about that other than to point it out.

Alternative "Proof" of the fact that light packets are spreading and not simply "spreading out" as tiny billiard balls to provide the Inverse Square Law (ISL) and that all photon waves occupy the whole spanned space. We need this short proof in addition to previous proofs I have provided because of some very woolly thinking about phenomena. Assume that photons of light are like billiard balls and as they leave the source simply retain the same size (laterally along the wavefront as well as longitudinally) and "spread out" away from each other in space, away from other photons on the same crest of the wave. This would mean that the electric field associated with photons would distance itself from the field of other co-moving photons. This means that the photons are "doing work" on each other through mutual repulsion. This work should result in the photons losing energy E=hf and this would lead to the frequency changing to longer wavelengths. Light would get "tired" the further it traveled in space. In actual fact this process has been experimentally disproven. I know you would all like to believe otherwise but this is a fact. Please accept it.

The next point about this "spreading out" of photons is that the distance between co-moving photons would naturally increasing on the one wavefront. It would be common sense if it was not for the contradiction... Being a process that requires time, tell me where on earth this time is coming from to make this observation by these co-moving photons. The photons cannot observe the passage of time so they cannot move apart since they are traveling at the speed of light and are particularly immune to "time". No time ... no movement. The one and only causal influence photons are subject to is absorption into a sink.... Remember these are quanta.

Aside from my other arguments about spreading light... this should help the pennies drop on this one.

QUOTE (laserlight+)
What is bothering me, is that when time is stopped, and the E line and H tensors are "frozen", the energy is not a wave, it is two separate, but complementary energy "spikes".

If you can imagine taking sequential time slices of a wavefunction using stop
action for each sample, the E and H amplitude's and phase angle of each tensor
varies with its position along the timeline.

1. What causes this instantaneous tensor amplitude and phase angle change?

2. Why is it changing along the vector direction of travel?

Keep in mind that both tensors periodically oscillate, and sequentially varying their
amplitudes, and phases, in a rising and falling wave cycle over time. WHY?

3. Is it photon "spin" that is responsible for the periodicity of the repetitive tensor
variation and wave cycle over time? If so, how does this change the amplitude
and phase angle of the tensor, since it is a massless and chargeless energy
"entity".

Forget this animation and forget time slices ... look at my animation and you can see that the electric field (in spatial section) in the far field forms spreading loops and in the near field are "attached" to the source. These far field electric field loops if you follow them around reverse in direction from the left side of the loop to the right side of the loop, positive then negative. Note that the loops are "sourceless" when they are being propagated in the far field and have "sources" when they are still in the evanescent zone. In the near field the sources remain linked with the fields and some of those linked fields "collapse" back into the near field when a photon packet is launched. This is "antenna impedience... or radiation impedience". Provided the source is "lossless" and offers no real resistance this energy can feed back to the source and be reused in the next cycle.

From your early text books it is clear in the rest frame of the source we see that the "apparently attached and linked" fields are "spatially orthogonal"... A current flows along a wire ... the impressed electric field is in the same direction... the magnetic field circumnavigates the wire. If the electric field was impressed into a circuit then the magnetic field threads it like in a bar magnet or solenoid. The relationship is the rate of change of the electric field is directly proportional to the magnetic field. If there is no magnetic filed or electric field change there is no electric field or magnetic field change respectively. Note also it is a reaction to the impressed field change.... this is exactly the same as Newton's Laws of Inertia but for electromagnetism. Notice this is something that can only occur in sources since it requires a time rate of change.

In free space while propagating there is no time rate of change of the propagating packet... the wave "freezes" the electric and the magnetic field in place up against the spreading lightcone wall, after all it is traveling at the speed of light. Here the "loops" of electric and magnetic fields are simply storage rings of the energy that was placed there in the evanescent field when time was a function in the field. The energy can never dissipate since there is nothing on which to dissipate them such as into a sink which could be the reverse of a source. In free space the electric and magnetic fields of propagating "waves" are non-dissipative... This means that in the regions of no charge and no currents the divergence of the field is zero. At the same time the curl of the electric and magnetic fields are minus the rate of change of the "other" field. Since there is no time it is "frozen". These are a succinct statement of all four Maxwell Equations in free space from the point of view of the photons. Taken to this extreme the values of the electric and magnetic fields in free space are entirely stationary. The energy cannot dissipate and the loops retain the energy forever unless they "ground" on an appropriate sink.

I will restate this another way...

Near the source and in the frame of the source the rate of change of the electric and magnetic fields define the both the fields in time. When one field reaches a "maximum value"... its rate of change is zero. When one field is "zero value" the rate of change is a maximum... so the "other" field is zero when one field reaches it maximum and a maximum when the other field is zero respectively. In free space the electric and magnetic fields are not changing at all so there is no change in either the electric or the magnetic fields so they "retain" their prior values till they are "absorbed" in an evanescent zone or till "eternity".
QUOTE (laserlight+)
1. What causes this instantaneous tensor amplitude and phase angle change?
Other than the mathematical reason as stated above it is "spatial and temporal elasticity", spacetime is elastic as a complete unit in 4D, it is due to the "appearance/non-appearance" of space "seen/not seen" from other frames of reference... Most clearly shown from the "rest frames" of the phenomenon and then compared with other frames in relative motion.
QUOTE (laserlight+)
2. Why is it changing along the vector direction of travel?
I suggest you look carefully again and note that nothing is changing along the propagating direction. The inappropriate illustration is just a nonsense and you cannot note any velocity other than the light velocity relative to the wave ... this is a tenant of Special Relativity. Light always travels at © and what you are seeing is similar to a freight train passing you (.. or are you passing the freight train?)... the train is not changing it is your position relative to the train that changes and you are measuring that.
QUOTE (laserlight+)
3. Is it photon "spin" that is responsible for the periodicity of the repetitive tensor variation and wave cycle over time? If so, how does this change the amplitude and phase angle of the tensor, since it is a massless and chargeless energy "entity".
No... and it doesn't.

Cheers
TRoc
C2,


QUOTE
TRoc - Something to do with frequencies .. assumes non-linearity where none (in general) exists so no progress possible



Are you seeing that this is not an "assumption"?


Every wave envelope has an infinite intensity at its "center". When waves are superimposed, there are always "non-linear" effects that can be accessed.


Progress is possible.



regards,

T.Roc

DavidD
QUOTE (TRoc+Sep 8 2007, 07:26 PM)


I think that the answer is "yes", but it can only "collapse" at one point (if you are talking about "just one photon").




Yes, I mean, one photon.
So this wave (of photon) at time t0 push in many directions, and at time t1 collapse at one point. But where is limit between, when it push in many directions, and when it collapse in one direction? And if it can push in many directions, then it means what wave struck in many directions screen (obstacle), but then doesn't wave collapse to photon, when it touch screen? I mean if wave touch screen then it must to collaspe to photon and then can't push screen in many directions (in many points).
I think, what there no any waves, and double slit expierement can be excplainet without waves. Photon or electron just interference with himsefl at early stage and then with some probability choosing one of many directions and there flying one photon in one direction. Just at early stage photon behave like wave and after what became photon again and behave like photon even before struck a screen. I mean photon split and then gravitation of those two parts combine this parts again in one photon and just change direction of flying photon in sence like this parts was waves and gives with some probability one direction, but this probability depend how this two parts interference, but after this process flying again one photon.
Confused2
Hi TRoc,Laserlight et al,

Sorry(TRoc) .. you posted faster than I was keeping up .. these are comments on more then one post

I think the Talbot Bunny is significant because
1/ Once we knew where to look for the Bunny it turned up clear as day on the ray tracing applet .. fair (but not absolute) confirmation that the ray tracer and reality are closely related. If it looks like a Talbot Bunny and smells like a Talbot Bunny than I'm pretty sure it is a Talbot Bunny. My 'Bunny suppression' question was something to do with being English .. please ignore it.
2/ For the rest I will assume the coincidence is more than coincidence .. we have the bunny by the ears.

Thoughts about the Talbot Carpet Bunny for discussion..
3/ No single source can produce the effect
4/ The effect relies on precise phase matching from each source... therefore each source IS phase matched.
5/ The phantom slits/carpets are not sensitive to the precise pattern of emission from each slit/source/dot... all it needs is that the phase information from the source is preserved.
6/ Since the effect was observed long before lasers were invented .. in fact in daylight .. I think we're seeing evidence that each photon ignores what the other guys are doing and makes its own interference pattern all by itself..

Imho the above gives insight into what a photon does but not how it does it.

QUOTE (TRoc+)
...Those 2 same frequency notes will NOT beat. There is no difference between them to cause this.

Yes! Yes! Yes! (I agree).
---------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mode

QUOTE (wiki+)
Usually, when involving some sort of potential, the wavefunction is decomposed into a superposition of energy eigenstates, each oscillating with frequency...


Quantum oscillation might be on the quantum songsheet but that doesn't mean I understand it.

Not sure about the relevance of airgaps .. and short of time so will pass on them

On to Ramsey and his microwaves ( http://physics.nobel.brainparad.com/norman...ter_ramsey.html )
QUOTE
In 1949 Ramsey perfected a method to study the structure of atoms by sending them through two separate oscillating electromagnetic fields. The rapid energy-level transitions thereby induced in a beam of atoms produced an interference pattern that could provide important data about the structure and behaviour of atoms. When synchronized with a microwave oscillator, the atoms' oscillations could also be used to measure the passage of time with extreme accuracy..

I'd guess we're in the realms of hyperfine transitions .. possibly creating a beam of atoms with either 'both states' or a 'superposition of states' .. hence (possibly) an interference pattern which is visible 'later'. I suggest the atoms in the beam are the method of communication between the applied fields/pulses.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
In 1949 Ramsey perfected a method to study the structure of atoms by sending them through two separate oscillating electromagnetic fields. The rapid energy-level transitions thereby induced in a beam of atoms produced an interference pattern that could provide important data about the structure and behaviour of atoms. When synchronized with a microwave oscillator, the atoms' oscillations could also be used to measure the passage of time with extreme accuracy..

I'd guess we're in the realms of hyperfine transitions .. possibly creating a beam of atoms with either 'both states' or a 'superposition of states' .. hence (possibly) an interference pattern which is visible 'later'. I suggest the atoms in the beam are the method of communication between the applied fields/pulses.
atomic clocks are now so good that time and frequency can be measured more precisely than any other physical quantity.

We're back to non-linear crystals again .. pass.
Sidelobes..
"For an antenna with a uniformly illuminated rectangular aperture," .. to me this looks like we're back to diffraction again. Solve one and you solve 'em all. ( http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...ffracon.html#c1 ). The Fourier Transform solves for the far field with continuous excitation ( e^(jwt) ) .. as before. With multiple elements there's a Talbot Bunny on the way .. a bit further away than the drawings normally show.
Cornufication..
I can't really get very excited about cornu spirals .. there's nasty maths involved but (as far as I can see) .. not much physics. At some point we should try to determine the mechanism of spreading at a slit/opening .. Huygens/Sum over paths/Other .. once that is determined the cornu spirals will look after themselves.
Non-spreading wavepackets (Airy function)
From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_function
QUOTE
The Airy function describes the appearance of a star — a point source of light — as it appears in a telescope. The ideal point image becomes a series of concentric ripples because of the limited aperture and the wave nature of light (Suiter 1994). It is also the solution to Schrödinger's equation  for a particle confined within a triangular potential well .

Q.Why does a particle in a triangular potential well behave like a particle in a triangular potential well? A. Because it's a particle in a triangular potential well (the clue is in the question).
--------------------
I'm sorry this is a bit 'abrupt' .. I have tried to cover as much as possible AND get some work finished.
Summary ..
So far I've only seen any non-linear effects where non-linear elements have been explicitly involved.
Best wishes - C2.
Confused2
Hi DavidD et al,

As I see it the photon momentum problem is rather nasty. To conserve momentum the source and sink should be kicked in opposite directions. Until the photon reaches its sink the source can't know what to do.. this could take millions of years. Maybe momentum isn't conserved at this level. ??

Best wishes - C2.
TRoc
Hi all,



C2, thanks for the response, I know you've got a busy schedule right now. You should think about going "non-profit", eh? haha



I'm confused as to the "non-linear" category. I think that this is worth discussing, in the most general terms that we can state.


Starting with a wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear


QUOTE
Whilst some nonlinear systems and equations of general interest have been extensively studied, the general theory is poorly understood.



That's a good place to start. I think that we might fit into that category: "poor understanding". But, from my perspective, you seem to have a "built in" resistance to this. Is it mathematical in nature?


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Whilst some nonlinear systems and equations of general interest have been extensively studied, the general theory is poorly understood.



That's a good place to start. I think that we might fit into that category: "poor understanding". But, from my perspective, you seem to have a "built in" resistance to this. Is it mathematical in nature?


In mathematics, a nonlinear system is one whose behavior can't be expressed as a sum of the behaviors of its parts (or of their multiples.) In technical terms, the behavior of nonlinear systems is not subject to the principle of superposition. Linear systems are subject to superposition.



If it weren't for the word "mathematics", I would be thrown off by that quote. After all, we are talking about "superposition" as part and parcel of the DSE. However, at least from my perspective, we are talking about an actual "physical" superposition, and whatever math we use is up to us. This is one of the "classic" reasons that I prefer a "physical math", that does not use imaginary numbers as fundamental parts.


For now, we'll stick to what is "in the books". Recall that I am trying to "translate" my findings into something that can be understood by modern Physics.


QUOTE
Nonlinear equations and functions are of interest to physicists and mathematicians because most physical systems are inherently nonlinear in nature. Physical examples of linear systems are relatively rare.



I find this statement much harder to argue with, at least as a counter to your statement that "T.Roc is using nonlinear ideas where, in general, none are found"?


"In general", that is false.


Physical examples of linear systems are relatively rare, most physical systems are inherently nonlinear in nature.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Nonlinear equations and functions are of interest to physicists and mathematicians because most physical systems are inherently nonlinear in nature. Physical examples of linear systems are relatively rare.



I find this statement much harder to argue with, at least as a counter to your statement that "T.Roc is using nonlinear ideas where, in general, none are found"?


"In general", that is false.


Physical examples of linear systems are relatively rare, most physical systems are inherently nonlinear in nature.


When a system is linear, people examining it can make certain mathematical assumptions and approximations about its behavior, allowing for simple computation of results.
..
In nonlinear systems these assumptions cannot be made. Since nonlinear systems are not equal to the sum of their parts,  they are often difficult (or impossible) to model, and their behavior with respect to a given variable (for example, time) is extremely difficult to predict.




The "parts" of the DSE: the frequency "mean" of the laser, or the "mean" of "mixed" light (white), the width of the slit, the separation of the slits, the distance to screen. That's pretty much all that is used, and if you change ANY of these parameters, the fringe pattern (results) CHANGES. That seems to fit into the "non-linear" category.


If we have evidence of some phenomenon, that has NEVER been falsified, don't we get to drop the word "assumption"? I realize, that to mathematicians, this is not a "proof" until the exhaustive math has been done.


The phenomenon of "beats", or secondary vibrations, being a natural consequence of 2 or more other vibrations being in the same general space, is NOT an assumption. That there is a simple (ironically linear) solution to these beats, that allows for the "superposition" to continue. That is specifically, that without this simple solution, they will NOT continue to "share space", which would be interpreted on the outside, as having "spread", or be "suppressed".


I digress; I do not want to stray from finding out what your definition, or distinction between linear, and non-linear is, and why you think it must be "one or the other", and not possibly "both". (or whatever)


regards,

T.Roc


edit/ps. I forgot 2 things.

1. How is a crystal, with regularly spaced "windows", formed by a patterned lattice of absorbers/emitters (atoms), any different from a 2 slit (or multiple grating) barrier that also provides "windows" between to guide the wave?

They both force the geometry of the nodes to change, and then reform.


2. Your "Airy function" is not what I linked. You probably did not have the time to read it, but it is a new term (apparently) coined by M Berry, called "Airy packet", where he has solved the "spreading" issue of the wavefunction, that Schrodinger could not find a way around. (without a potential well) Berry does use the Airy function, as a start, but the distinction of his solution is self-evident.

Nonspreading Wavepackets - Link -
M Berry, NL Balazs
U of NY, Stony Brook 1978
jal
Hi TRoc!
QUOTE
1. How is a crystal, with regularly spaced "windows", formed by a patterned lattice of absorbers/emitters (atoms), any different from a 2 slit (or multiple grating) barrier that also provides "windows" between to guide the wave?

I said that in this thread a long time ago.
Nobody paid any attention.
The double slit experiments have moved down ... down ... to the sizes of atoms.
ohmy.gif
jal
Laserlight
Hi GE,

That was a thoughtful "effort" on your part to respond to my model and questions,
even if there was unnecessary arrogance in several of your statements.

I have several logical alternatives to your definitive "proposals" on several fronts,
but am leaving your "version" open so that others can express their opposing
views on the model(s) that you have contrived/expressed.

I will be sorely disappointed if no one else confronts some of the inconsistencies
that seem conspicuous in your verbal illustrations/models of the theory/physics
involved. Remember we are after the truth, no matter how "ugly", or
disturbing that it may seem, or whose "ego" might get bruised.

Since your explanation is very long, I will address specific arguments over the
course of the coming week, one subject per post, as time allows.

The "floor" is open for all to participate. Let the arguments and alternative
perspective conceptualizations begin.

Any takers? TRoc, C2, Jal, Jan, Wulf, WN, YQ, Maybe ????,....and anyone else that
I may have forgotten.

LL
Laserlight
Hi TRoc, et al,

QUOTE
1. How is a crystal, with regularly spaced "windows", formed by a patterned lattice of absorbers/emitters (atoms), any different from a 2 slit (or multiple grating) barrier that also provides "windows" between to guide the wave?

They both force the geometry of the nodes to change, and then reform.


You are overlooking the obvious....the issue is dependent upon
geometrical SYMMETRY. A requirement that there be symmetrical energy
relationships, is necessary to generate symmetrical patterns. Random events or
amorphous "ratio's" will not generate periodic patterns. The definition of "pattern"
is a repeating or predictable sequence.

The pattern that is "projected" is an artifact of the ratio's/patterns originating from
the source "pattern".

User posted image

OOhhhh, see the bunny! laugh.gif


LL
TRoc
LL,



Your post didn't answer the question, or help any. sad.gif


How is "geometrical SYMMETRY" not said in "geometry of the nodes "?


Periodic patterns are easily represented by ratios, namely the ratio of the "periodic" to the "pattern" (geometry).

(which you seem to say anyway: "The pattern that is "projected" is an artifact of the ratio's/patterns originating from the source "pattern". )


Why are you being defensive? Is the "difference" between "regularly spaced", and "geometrically symmetric", worth arguing over?


How about any "difference" between "mathematical symmetry", and "ratios"? I can't see any value in beating that dead horse, either.


smile.gif

T.Roc

Laserlight
Hi TRoc,

Sorry if the post seemed ambiguous, I thought what I had posted was
"self apparent".

The "point" that I was making, is that the geometrical patterns that are observed
in the far field, are merely phase and timing superposition "artifacts" that are
a response to the physical symmetry that originates at/from the source.

The patterns in the far field can be predicted beforehand, according to the
shape of the source
, thus the bunny illustration.

A symmetrically "shaped" source, will yield "expanded symmetry" in the far field,
and will be exactly predictable, because we know the relationships and
geometries/symmetries that are involved in the entire "carpet" process.

This is the reason that I am not overwhelmed by the Talbot carpets, they are
absolutely predictable, IMO. A computer program can perfectly map the result
before a single photon interferes with the symmetry of the secondary source.

Yeah, interesting patterns, but of no real useful consequence, IMO. Thus, my
"crack" about bunny shaped cloud patterns.



LL
Laserlight
TRoc, et al,

http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/kap27...TwoSlit/app.htm

Play with this applet by varying the top slider all the way to the right.

Interference patterns emerge.

LL
TRoc
Hi all,



LL, if words were all that were required, this conversation wouldn't be happening (still). Science demands more, ie. math and/or geometry, etc.


Even then, your words are NOT adequate. You are falling back to "square one" here, by thinking you can "simply" describe the ENTIRE "set" of experiments that define this phenomenon. If this were possible, QM would not have had been developed to "explain" this.


QUOTE
The "point" that I was making, is that the geometrical patterns that are observed in the far field, are merely phase and timing superposition "artifacts" that are a response to the physical symmetry that originates at/from the source.



Do you mean the Sun, or the laser? (rhetoric)

No, you do not.


Tell me then, in words, why we can treat the slit as a "new source". Don't use geometry, or math.


Ok, don't tell me, I already know that "words" aren't going to "cut it".

Why?


Because, as C2 has pointed out, you are ignoring the facts:

(1) With one slit, we get ONE peak, with two slits, we get THREE. (essentially)


So, your "photocopy of the bunny" doesn't hold water. The bunnies might have had sex on the way, I'm not sure.


(2) Not only that, but the center peak, is NOT a copy of EITHER slit, as far as intensity is concerned. (copy = same)


(3) NOR is it a copy of the single slit version. (4x intensity)


(4) To delineate the difference between 1 or 2+ slits, we try to "peek" at the process, to see what is happening "in mid stream". Of course, we "peek" with an absorber, and guess what? One of the Talbot revivals gets absorbed, and we lose the interference: from a "photocopy" of 2 slits, we get a picture of ONE slit, just by "lifting the lid on the copier", so to speak.


This means that the Talbot revivals play an integral role in the final result. In analogous form, the Talbot carpet is woven with ONE thread. Pull the thread anywhere in the carpet, and the whole thing unravels. (back to a copy of one slit, even though the image that we input was of 2 slits)


Do I make sense?


regards,

T.Roc
Guest
Size to density ratio of the source. unsure.gif
TRoc
Guest,



Ahhh! You mean the density of the "imaginary slit", that is in between the other 2 real slits. That is where the extra intensity comes from?


blink.gif


Laserlight
TRoc,

Contrary to your emotional protest, DENIAL is not a river in Egypt. laugh.gif

QUOTE
Because, as C2 has pointed out, you are ignoring the facts:

(1) With one slit, we get ONE peak, with two slits, we get THREE. (essentially)


User posted image

User posted image


Count the peaks from one slit.....how many do you see...come on you can do
it! biggrin.gif

Double slit vs. single slit intensity patterns:

user posted image


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Because, as C2 has pointed out, you are ignoring the facts:

(1) With one slit, we get ONE peak, with two slits, we get THREE. (essentially)


User posted image

User posted image


Count the peaks from one slit.....how many do you see...come on you can do
it! biggrin.gif

Double slit vs. single slit intensity patterns:

user posted image


(4) To delineate the difference between 1 or 2+ slits, we try to "peek" at the process, to see what is happening "in mid stream". Of course, we "peek" with an absorber, and guess what? One of the Talbot revivals gets absorbed, and we lose the interference: from a "photocopy" of 2 slits, we get a picture of ONE slit, just by "lifting the lid on the copier", so to speak.


This means that the Talbot revivals play an integral role in the final result. In analogous form, the Talbot carpet is woven with ONE thread. Pull the thread anywhere in the carpet, and the whole thing unravels. (back to a copy of one slit, even though the image that we input was of 2 slits)


Wasn't the discussion about "Talbot carpets", which are basically ENERGY PATTERNS caused
by superposition of wavefronts? FWIW, your single thread approach is incorrect,
it takes AT LEAST 2 signals (threads) to produce repeating energy patterns.
Remove 1 thread and the patterns disappear but there is still the energy available
from the remaining "thread".

Even you must concede that resonance requires at least 2 separate signals (threads),
one being a physical mixing point for resonance to occur. It is the basis
of resonance. Resonance, cannot spontaneously occur in space without the benefit
of a physical point of mixing, so effectively there are a minimum of
3 components necessary for signal mixing to occur...2 signals plus a
physical point of mixing/summation.

Is this "direct" enough? laugh.gif

Comments,
LL
TRoc
Hi all,


QUOTE
Contrary to your emotional protest, DENIAL is not a river in Egypt



There was no emotion in that post, sorry.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Contrary to your emotional protest, DENIAL is not a river in Egypt



There was no emotion in that post, sorry.


Is this "direct" enough? 



No, its playing games with words and pictures.


Let's look at all the facts, and not select just the ones that will support an isolated statement.


User posted image


One picture, showing both results (SSE, DSE), with intensity, and diffraction included.


I see: one peak for the SSE, with 2 very minor sidelobes.

I see: three peaks for the DSE, with 2 minor sidelobes, and a few more very minor sidelobes.


We could probably play this game some more, but let's not, OK?


My simple point is that a simple "photocopy", or direct (but proportional) reproduction of the "image of a slit" does not answer all the questions.


QUOTE
Even you must concede that resonance requires at least 2 separate signals (threads) across a mixing point for resonance to occur. It is the basis of resonance. Resonance, cannot spontaneously occur in space without the benefit
of a physical point of mixing, so effectively there are a minimum of 3 components for signal mixing to occur.



laugh.gif


No, there is nothing for me to concede. I have been saying we need 3 sources for a "new definition" of resonance all along, including prior to this thread (by years).


An analogy is an analogy. Do not attempt to further misconstrue what I said. "What goes up, must come down" is very true, but does not result in a good "theory of gravity".


The "single thread" analogy of the Talbot carpet refers to the "wavefunction". The inclusion of the rest of the analogy (TWO slits, ONE carpet) already implies "more than one" component. If you "pull the thread" (collapse the wavefunction of ONE of the sources), the "carpet" (interference) is destroyed, and you go back to the SSE result. (note: this is AFTER the slits, we go from 2, to 1 slit results)


As for the "physical point of mixing", we have already covered that. Since we are not in a "perfect-vacuum", the MEDIUM that the experiment takes place in IS that point of mixing. Nothing more is required.


Just like the term "black and white interference fringes" is a misnomer, so is "interference in a vacuum": nothing is there to interfere with. Period. That is, of course, imagining that a perfect vacuum exists, which it does not. So, as long as there are ALWAYS wavefunctions in the medium, then interference in that medium is possible.


If you start from imaginary assumptions, you can only arrive at an imaginary theory. I'm not going to vote for that.


Now do I make sense?

smile.gif



T.Roc


ps.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Even you must concede that resonance requires at least 2 separate signals (threads) across a mixing point for resonance to occur. It is the basis of resonance. Resonance, cannot spontaneously occur in space without the benefit
of a physical point of mixing, so effectively there are a minimum of 3 components for signal mixing to occur.



laugh.gif


No, there is nothing for me to concede. I have been saying we need 3 sources for a "new definition" of resonance all along, including prior to this thread (by years).


An analogy is an analogy. Do not attempt to further misconstrue what I said. "What goes up, must come down" is very true, but does not result in a good "theory of gravity".


The "single thread" analogy of the Talbot carpet refers to the "wavefunction". The inclusion of the rest of the analogy (TWO slits, ONE carpet) already implies "more than one" component. If you "pull the thread" (collapse the wavefunction of ONE of the sources), the "carpet" (interference) is destroyed, and you go back to the SSE result. (note: this is AFTER the slits, we go from 2, to 1 slit results)


As for the "physical point of mixing", we have already covered that. Since we are not in a "perfect-vacuum", the MEDIUM that the experiment takes place in IS that point of mixing. Nothing more is required.


Just like the term "black and white interference fringes" is a misnomer, so is "interference in a vacuum": nothing is there to interfere with. Period. That is, of course, imagining that a perfect vacuum exists, which it does not. So, as long as there are ALWAYS wavefunctions in the medium, then interference in that medium is possible.


If you start from imaginary assumptions, you can only arrive at an imaginary theory. I'm not going to vote for that.


Now do I make sense?

smile.gif



T.Roc


ps.

Wasn't the discussion about "Talbot carpets", which are basically ENERGY PATTERNS caused by superposition of wavefronts?



No, the question at hand was to C2, and what his distinction between linear and non-linear was, and in which category he would place a "slit wall in a medium", and "a crystal with a periodic/symmetric lattice" in.


Not that you are not free to discuss what you'd like, but I am interested in what you (and anyone else) think about that. I'm not so interested in having general analogies taken apart as if they were Science. They are used to help further understanding of the underlying Physics, and that's it.
Laserlight
TRoc,

Perhaps, a bunny is too confusing, I should have used something that you could relate to:

User posted image


An energy pattern is created because of the geometry originating from
a source
...a stencil....a mask.... slits, and how energy interacts with those
pattern originating "sources".


Did you adjust the sliders to derive superposition energy patterns that can
be observed in the waveforms? Of course this is only a simulation viewing
one cross-sectional "projection" plane arising from two slits, where the
geometry can be changed, to change the pattern generated.


LL
TRoc
LL,


laugh.gif


Well, for C2 and GE, you are correct.


Can you make a Condor, or a Llama?


(wrong southern continent)



ciao,


T.Roc


ps. Yes, I see what you mean in that java model.

another ps. I noticed that M Berry refered to one of the interference patterns in his paper a "hedgehog". I don't know that one!
Laserlight
TRoc,

Sorry 'bout that? A pleasant surprise. Your mastery of English is very good.

C2 is in England. GE is Aussie.

User posted image

Peru? Bolivia? Equador? Colombia? What country?

LL
TRoc
LL,


Do you have the whole ark in there?

laugh.gif


Chile.


Don't be too impressed with my english, it is my "first" language (or more than 1/2). Mixed family; dual citizen, etc.


I am in the US now (just for a few more weeks), too.


I'm not sure why I thought C2 was also from australia? Same accent as GE? laugh.gif



OK, a technical question (because I forgot to mention this difference in my "list".)


Do those "puppet shadows" get bigger, if you use smaller source (slit)? (like the DSE)


The DSE has too many "surprises" to be explained by the "classic" method, as they say, and the QM explanation just leaves logic by the wayside.


regards,

T.Roc


Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, janrinze, TRoc, Jal, Montec, Confused2, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, "THEY" and "THEY2" et al,

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
That was a thoughtful "effort" on your part to respond to my model and questions, even if there was unnecessary arrogance in several of your statements.
it is not so much arrogance (though I admit to some) but it is related to my frustration having to repeat myself endlessly. From what is transpiring it would appear that this entire discussion is traveling in circles.

On to more interesting parts of the discussion... Thanks TRoc for your points about Talbot carpets... Unfortunately it is very difficult to analyze the fine points regarding them. The issue about Airy Packets being non-spreading... that is interesting and could be very important. Another interesting packet is from Bessel Beams and are produced and investigated in a single interfering photons regime. Bessel beams are collections of individual bessel photons in the strong source situation but individual photons one at a time behave in the same self-interfering (actually non-interfering) way as the beam ... in the weak source limit. This is shown in this paper (Application Note).
Bessel-type interference patterns detected in single photon regime
R. Grunwald and M. Bock
Bessel-type interference patterns detected in single photon regime (App Note)

QUOTE
Bessel-type interference patterns detected in single photon regime
R. Grunwald and M. Bock
Application Note

Introduction
Many Interference experiments for proving the quantum mechanical nature of single photons are based on the well-known Young’s double slit [1]. In this case, an attenuated spherical or plane wave passes through a multiple diffracting structure. In our novel approach, modified setups with beamshaping axicons were utilized to study for the first time the quantum interference non diffracting beams [2]. Single-photon statistics in space was analyzed with a high-resolution EMCCD camera of large quantum efficency.

Two different situations are provided....

Modified Young-type setups – diffractive

Bessel-like beams using near Bessel "shaped" photons.
Physical approximation of Bessel beams by finite zones of quasi- non diffracting propagation.

Image Fig 1: Caption: Bessel-like interference fringes generated by an array of thinfilm microaxicons (Gaussian shape, 5.7 μm, fused silica on silica, period 405 μm) in single photon regime. The light source (diode laser, wavelength 822.7 nm) was attenuated by filters. The EMCCD detector was operated in accumulating mode. The pictures correspond to an exposure time of (a) 0.2 s, ( b ) 10 s, and ( c ) 20 s (field of view 405 x 405 μm2). Picture (d) shows the hexagonal array structure of the beam for 7 selected sub-beams (period 405 μm).
[...]
The results of the interference experiment confirm the non-local quantum mechanical nature of single photon diffraction. In contrast to the Young‘s setup with a diffracting double slit, the interference from refracted beams was observed in the near-field instead of the far field. Because of their broader spectral transfer functions compared to diffractive configurations, axicon interferometers enable for experiments with polychromatic ultrashort pulses which are the subject of further investigations.
[...]
Conclusions
1. The well-known fundamental statements of quantum theory about non-local photon propagation were well-confirmed by a modified Young-type interference experiment based on Bessel-like beams.
2. The non diffracting nature of such beams was strongly indicated to hold even in the case of ultra low intensity.
3. The spatially resolved photon statistics shows that single photons can be prepared to follow a diffraction-less path. Thus, they can be regarded to be
“non diffracting single photons”.

http://www.lot-oriel.com/site/site_down/cc...type_deen01.pdf
In this case you can all see the differences between spatial and temporal correlation. Here we see that the "diffraction" leads to single photon correlation to the single pattern... all around it as shown by the detail in the "Setup" image detail of the frontpage of this application note. I would have got better examples of Bessel Beams but I wanted to emphasize the single packet response of this system to the ensembles of photons.

These are very special shaped wavepackets produced by 'wedge shaped"... in this case "gaussian shaped" optical elements through which conventional photons have been propagated. The other interesting feature is the ability of the Bessel Beam to penetrate dispersing media without any diffraction (up to a point)... depends on the quality of the beam.

I suggest this has a very great bearing on the interpretation of the quantum phenomena and to features of these special "shaped" photons. Note that these patterns represent single photon interference patterns for single wavepackets 'constricted" to a finite size by the Bessel Function "shaping". Individual photons are still required to build up a picture over time but the packet that the image is building on is the same shape for all the single correlated photons. This is limited specifically by the nature of the non-spreading Bessel packet. other ordinary photons have a spreading wave packet and that would normally lead to mutual interferences between the packets. IMHO the entire DSE interference pattern which is due to spreading and mixing of single wavepackets ... one at a time to produce the whole pattern is the "norm" and this is the "exception condition" by taking the norm and passing it through a wedge shaped lens resulting in the non-dispersive Bessel reshaped wavepacket from each of the seven 'separated sources".

Does everyone see this as evidence for "spreading" wavepackets that would converge through successive 'morphing" of the "wedge shaped" lens into the normal multi-pinholed DSE... especially if these were arrayed in a line? These are also a kind of soliton packet... there are several examples of soliton producing wavepackets in the literature beside bessel and airy Packets.

Cheers
Laserlight
Hi TRoc,

Chile, I eat it all the time....oh, sorry, that's chili. dry.gif

QUOTE
OK, a technical question (because I forgot to mention this difference in my "list".)


Do those "puppet shadows" get bigger, if you use smaller source (slit)? (like the DSE)


The size of the "projected" image varies according to the ISL, It depends upon
how far the source is from the screen, but you know this. Ever go to a movie
theater?....small 35mm film image.....HUGE expanded image on screen.
It depends upon the image focal point from the source.

If you really think about the interference process, every object image that we see
is an interference pattern that replicates the details of the image.

The viewed object is the "secondary emission source", and the interference pattern
is imaged on our retina. We have discussed the physiology of the process
at length previously.

LL
Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, janrinze, TRoc, Jal, Montec, Confused2, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, "THEY" and "THEY2" et al,

Referring to the entry above..

Some slight corrections... I mentioned "wedge shaped" lenses when in fact they should be an "Axicon" cone shaped lenses.

These little cones produce images of the packet on small footprint areas beneath them. The argument about how many nodes are to be found in an airy Disk should be understood as a question as to what level of the field where the ripples are too small in amplitude to be detectable. In actual fact the ability to detect these smaller ripples would be highly dependent on the signal to noise ratio of signal photons to noise photons and the period of exposure. The 'count" is simply you arbitrarily determining the limit. The trailing and leading edge of these packets depends on your belief/understanding of Wheeler Feynman Absorber Theory and the possibility of parasitic emergent behavior in the far field. This cannot be ruled out simply because experiments have not been performed to test when and where this emergent behavior occurs... Just like Talbot Carpets. It is possible to restore the entire packet no matter how small these amplitudes become "attenuated" through distance simply because this is a quantum event so even the slightest "response" could result in the full "revival" of the entire packet .... do not write packets off just because you cannot individually see then because of "distance". Photons never die.

The other types of beam that we have spoken of before are "Orbital Angular Momentum" (OAM) enhanced packets. These lead to "twisted light" and this carries additional orbital spin quanta which are used to confine the packet and prevent spreading. This can only be "demonstrated" up to a point but it is an apparently very successful technique (optical tweezers etc.). You can all remember these objects from which result from topological charge and optical vortices and instantons as discussed by Dr. Taco Visser way earlier in this thread. OAM is an infinite level quantum number that could be used to encode an infinite amount of information on a single monochromatic photon. We have previously discussed how this information could be read using an optically resonant "tree" structure that 'sorts" the photon among the resonant states of OAM until it is finally detected along a uniquely resonant path that resonant to that specific mode of OAM where a light sensor 'confirms" the data encoded on the single photon. In theory you could write the Bible on a single photon and then read it by providing a resonant tree that responds uniquely to that one 'resonance".

Cheers
Guest_iseason
QUOTE (Good Elf+Sep 23 2006, 04:41 AM)
Hi wesden, Confused2, Neuro, Nick et al,


An even more remarkable experiment is
the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment
Now this can be performed by photons but the result will be the same as when using electrons except the slits would need to be very much closer to notice diffraction. Here we see as noted in our time frame an event that has occurred long after the "destruction" of a photon affects the result of the "destroyed" photon being part of a diffraction pattern or not. Using entangled pairs of "matched" photons if the slit one of the entangled photons passed through is known, it's "twin" will "de-cohere" and form part of an "ensemble" of photons that contain no interference pattern. This "test" can occur long after the original photon impacted on the screen. From an observer point of view this means that an "event" that happens later in "history" can affect the past. This is like saying that filling out a questionnaire today can affect the result of a poll that was counted and published in 1900.

Of course this is a quantum event and is not to be directly compared with the example I have just given. Nevertheless an amazing result.

Here is something else that may amuse you taken from Paul Dirac when speaking about this same double slit experiment...

(my emphasis) That will give me something to think about very carefully. It is all about "bosons" and Bose-Einstein Statistics, and this crops up all the time with LASER action. No such thing as truly "destructive" interference. Love it!

Cheers

i have an answer which takes into account several observations in duality...the study is about a 'singular particle universe'.

"singular particle Universe"

This defines 'quantum' as being the only 'real' particle , and then there being only one of them. Though this may seem bizzare , the problem of causality is resolved in this fashion.
the "particle" behaviors according to duality. Meaning it has only two states. One occupies all space as a volumed particle. (The even distribution of itself).In the other state it becomes a quanta of energy>
Looking at it this way , it takes no longer to compress to any point in space than to any other.Because only one particle is doing this , it does not create causality and can never meet or interact with itself in either of the two states.....hence causality is preserved...there is only ever one..

the important difference in this is that whatever theory you use , you must go from a zero energy state (before causality) to an increased energy state (after something is caused). Unless you start with a state where all the energy is already present and distributed and compressed, (such as the big bang)..Unfortunately , it's the chicken and the egg. Where did the energy come from...

Which singular particle theory, The same level is repeated by the same particle. There is a type of causality which always remains as one when the particle has repeated the contraction to quanta and expansion to universal volume .

it must never occupy two "pixels" of space at the same time. This breaks causality and calls for twice the energy to be created.Further, It cannot take up a position that it has already occupied.It seeks opposing positions in a uniform fashion to create a balanced distribution.
However , this distribution is not limited by space alone but time as well. if this were not so the light created and received from a star would not be able to exist in our future.So the quanta particle places or "occurs in an even distribution."The alpha and the omega"

Only when ALL the universe has been occupied by quanta can time be seen to operate.Even at this point Chaos is more relevant than intelligence, structure and design.

We need to remember that throughout all of this the quanta states have not been able to interact with each other,But once the universe has been totally mapped the cycle continues to operate.for the first time causality can be created.Unfortunately we are a long way from increasing energy.
the interim states between quanta and volumization can add up to a quanta,And there are as many of these occupying the universe as quanta itself.Because each time the cycle was run it made the transition through volumes.This means that :

1/2 cycles + 1/2 cycles can equal a quanta.
1/10 cycles + 9/10Th's of a cycle can equal a quanta

Because in retrospect (after space has been filled) , There are many new possibilities

Diversity has been created for the first time. Still only one quanta at a time but using a very different method of volumisation and reduction to quanta.once the diversity cycle completed.
Time now becomes a factor since the new cycle does not rely on the reduction from one point to another point only. But the interaction between two or several points.
localization occurs where High combination cause voids in the system which and motion becomes necessary (as we see it today. Since the Quanta is still responsible for all this it needs to repairs it's clusters of occurrences which are occurring.

Planetary motion keeps the quanta from occupying the same space again while still being able to maintain the reality of an object.Since the object is made up of occurrences , These must be replaced at the same rate as the quanta originally created it's cycle.

In all this Causality is preserved by ONE. No energy is added nor subtracted by any thing that occurs in the universe since it only has one source and that source gave nothing more that it's occurrence.

cheers
iseason
:rolleyes: iseason@igrin.co.nz
Good Elf
Hi Guest_iseason,

Firstly it is customary to register with the Forum so that we can know that we are speaking with a single person and that the identity is not an alias for an existing board member. You would not want others to make problems for you here on the Forum. In the past I have had some "awkward" experiences with individuals that refuse to properly identify themselves and want their identity to be mistaken for someone else.

Secondly I really cannot relate to that theory of a single particle Universe. Too weird even for me... Science requires experimental proof... You need to provide this theory with "substance" through existing experiment or through a Gedanken Experiment based on known physical principles with predictions that indicate outcomes that match with our reality. Otherwise it is an unsupported "belief" sounding more like something out of Genesis than from a physics book.

The next point is you have decided to abandon the whole of current physics that has worked so well without any justification. Remember that existing physics does have merit since it has demonstrated a mastery over certain processes that lead to knowable and reproducible outcomes. This is something belief cannot do regardless of how earnestly we might like these theories. Your theory offers no immediate promise of any similar capabilities and seems to be the basis of a religious belief rather than thoughtful science.

It is not good to directly publish your email address and it is usually better to deal in the way the Forum operates with Personal Messages and Forum email which is "effectively" the same since the limited anonymity and available communication channels are ways to protect our privacy and to stop any obsessive behavior by those who may become agitated by some of the ideas expressed here.

Please feel free to join in but also think deeply about those ideas in constructive and arguably scientific ways... Nobody needs to be be a scientist but it sure helps here to talk about the same things in the same way. wink.gif

Thank you for quoting me but my ideas are not for everyone so I do not expect that everyone should try to follow them without thinking carefully about exactly what they mean as a collection of concepts. The Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment is a very interesting experiment and it demonstrates a very subtle point about the underlying nature of time. Propagating photons do not experience the passage of time, similarly they cannot distinguish between spatial events. This is because photons are subject to the most extreme form of time dilation and length contraction possible. From the reference frame of the photon the emission and absorption of a photon are simultaneous even though in our observer frame of reference any amount of time may separate these events. So from the rest frame of the two entangled photon it is possible to consider that the events of emission and absorption are simultaneous even though we "observe" them separated in time. This is no mystery since this happens all the time even in our rooms where light must travel some distance to reach us, and this is interpretable as spatial distance. Everything we can see is in the past... It remains to be seen how much in the past these photon events in the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment are relative to each other and that is the only thing that is really surprising to us.

Cheers
Confused2
Hi All,

By the grace of the amazing Paul Falstad and his 2D applet ( http://www.falstad.com/wave2d/ )
we can count the rabbits. With this latest version we can switch between waves and intensity so no more problems there.

Count the rabbits here:-

User posted image

As TRoc suggests .. most of the light seems to be projections of the invisible rabbits which live between the slits.

Source here:- http://www.falstad.com/wave2d/Wave2d.java . . praise and gratitude. I see he's using FFT's .. no flowchart unfortunately so we have to work backwards .. watch this space.

Best wishes - C2.
Confused2
user posted image
Guest
QUOTE (Guest+Sep 9 2007, 07:35 PM)
Size to density ratio of the source. unsure.gif

By measuring far fields our only goal is to determine the properties of the source. The size, density and temperature of the original source is what allocates the wavelength and frequency to the field. Thinking logically i would have to say the interference is created by the unsynchronized phase of the superimposed wavelengths because their path lengths vary in length between source and slit. What happens if we move the source closer to slit 1 run the experiment and during the data recording session or energy capturing by our equipment we move the source closer to slit 2, does the interference change?

If moving the source does change the interference then the slits don't act as a source, merely a repeater of the field with its maintained properties.

If moving the source doesn't change the interference then the slits act as a source.
Confused2
Hi Guest,

Set up the Falstad applet ( http://www.falstad.com/wave2d/ ) and change the 'Incidence Angle' .. this should give a good insight into what happens when you move the source .. and why.

Best wishes - C2.
Laserlight
Hi C2,

QUOTE
Count the rabbits here.


You asked for it.




User posted image

Only one wascally wabbit.


LL
TRoc
Hi all,


[edit: LL, GREAT!! laugh.gif ]


Great Java simulation, C2. Thanks for the link.

(tri-chromatic and holographic phase too!)

biggrin.gif




Guest_iseason,


I would also add my vote that you register, and join in.


I agree with the principles in your post, although, I agree with Good Elf that you need a lot more to begin a "Scientific" theory, rather than a sound "Philosophy".


I will respond more in another thread, that some participants from this thread have started, to specifically address the "start from one", or at least, some minimum distance (or other measurement). That way, this thread can deal more specifically with the details that emerge from interference (which, you can understand, start a few steps away from "One"). wink.gif
link to "structured spacetime"



GE,


Your link was great too. I like to see "integrity", which I would further define as "willing to PULL weeds", in a paper. Although, to get published, it's better not to pull everything in the garden! You've got to leave some of the "interpretations" on the table, and chip away at the problems a little at a time.


They avoid saying "monochromatic source", and instead, state their "center frequency" [center wavelength 822.7 nm] .

They state how many "photons" the source is creating per set unit of time [10^15 photons/0.05 s], because of the limitations of the detector [minimum exposure time: 0.05s, quantum efficiency 0.43 @ 800 nm, >10^4 grey levels, accumulating mode].

And then, they tell you how they "attenuated" the source" [set of calibrated filters (>10^10), number of channels (10^6), intensity profile (up to 10), in total 10^16-10^17 range],

so that you may better understand their statements:


QUOTE
At the chosen parameters, the setup worked in single photon regime in the most parts of the detector area.



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
At the chosen parameters, the setup worked in single photon regime in the most parts of the detector area.



This holds even in the case of spatio-temporally well-separated quanta (e.g. single photons). The phenomenon is interpreted as an interference of the
quanta with themselves and as an expression of the statistical contribution of many possible pathways to the propagation of the quantum



So, they only "hint" at their being other interpretations of the "single photon". The single photon ends up with "particle" properties, if also following the logic that "single = 1". One what? Amount of energy. One~amount is a quantity of something.


If we give it a wave only definition (also embodied in bar h ; h/2pi), then their summary comment:

QUOTE
Single-photon characterization of few cycle wavepackets extends the quantum interference experiments to more complex spectral interference effects
like X-pulses with multi-dimensional correlation information.


makes more sense. The single "photon" can not be a point particle. It is a stable area created by the geometry of resonant interference, analogous to a stable orbit/spherical harmonic.


What you may want to call a "single photon", must be viewed as having more than 2 "independently vibrating" cycles, together in a "packet", or "envelope". This does NOT violate the E = hf hypothesis, because :

A. The "center" frequency, which is the "fundamental" original source, ALSO exists at the "wavefront", or leading edge. The leading edge velocity is limited (by harmonics) to the velocity of the "center" of the packet; both the constant c . There is "zero" Doppler shift, from that frame of reference. This is the "fundamental axis", derived by this "bow shock" wavefront "point", and the "center point" (both are called nodes). Bottom line: the frequency of the emission starts at a node, the center of the packet is a node, and the wavefront (at a point on the axis) is a node, and finally, the absorption/measurement must be on a node as well, or not resonant with the receiver, which would be false by definition for absorption.

And we end up with our fundamental QM equation, E = hf working at the "beginning and end" of the experiment, verifying the definition of the distance between emitter and absorber, divided by an integer # of cycles (distance between nodes x2, or 1/2 wavelength x2) , will yield the frequency of those rates, that produces a constant ratio of the distance traveled, per time (the velocity of c ).


B. In between these nodes, we have "phase velocity" that CAN "travel" at faster than c , but within the limits of the first, and last nodes. This distance (from source to sink) is the "primary mode", and has a constant relationship to c .

These nodes (and the ever present, 'in between the nodes', anti-node peaks) have a relativistically Doppler shifted (RDS) frequency, that has curvature that will be symmetric to the timing of the absorber phase (node location), will self correct, due to this delay, and "off phase" arrival.

http://www.exphy.uni-duesseldorf.de/Resear...t/FundPhys.html
User posted image
In the two frames in relative motion, the experimenters measure the same electric force between two charges

User posted image
Time dilation for a moving atom:
In the rest frame, the transition frequency of an atom is f. If it moves with a velocity v with respect to the laboratory, its fluorescence is reduced when it is irradiated simultaneously by two laser waves of frequencies f‘ and f‘‘ that propagate against and in the direction of the atom‘s motion, respectively. Special Relativity predicts that the two laser frequencies obey the relationship f‘ f‘‘ = f2 . Experiments that test this prediction are performed at the Max-Planck-Institut für Kernphysik in Heidelberg (Gwinner et al.)



While in the absorption process, the atom is in the moving frame, however, not in the opposite direction of the RDS, but with symmetric curvature to the recoil. Note that, unless physically "blocked or absorbed", the other side of the wavefront curvature will be arriving "inversely off phase" to the above example, and those velocity shifts will cancel.


These RDS frequencies, rather than the usual "time" methods, can be measured "cycle by cycle", as a change in distance between nodes of the fundamental wavelength, which gives the definition of "beat frequency".


Resonance Theory suggests that the same method of solving the constant ratio of inversely changing quantities, such as frequency and wavelength of any wave, can be used to answer fundamental questions like:


Why absorption and emission happen in specific quanta.

What kind of frequency ratios "spread",

and

What kind of frequency ratios "maintain locality" in the moving frame.

Why is the frequency of a major chord (a manipulated shape, non-spreading sound wave packet) the same as the "fundamental" frequency?

Why does the Inverse Square Law not apply to these wavepackets fundamental frequency, and only the density of that frequency, off axis?

Why didn't Euler's method succeed at answering the question of consonance in musical ratios?

Why (and how) do dispersed wavepackets "regroup" to converge upon one absorber?

-restated: How does interference happen, and why.


Possibly the best question, specific to this thread:


Do the "invisible bunnies" between the slits in the DSE represent "a new kind of x-ray", that works off "phase beats", like a "black light sandwhich"? Meaning: do the caustics, or phase node singularity, go RIGHT THROUGH the barrier, in an electron tunneling/braking & re-radiation process?

OR

Does the medium, based on the average distance between potential absorbers (nodes), and the inverse symmetric curvature of RDS beat frequencies (easily verified by real lines of RI scalar velocities), create a local non-linear effect at the phase singularity, which favors summing of the monochromatic vector beat frequencies towards the fundamental axis due to inverse symmetry of the phases as you move off axis? (transverse modes)


ohmy.gif


regards,

T.Roc
Laserlight
Hi TRoc,

Some interesting ideas.

Consider the idea that the E field and the H field components are orthogonally
90 degrees off axis, but are "in phase" as far as timing and OAM are
concerned
.

Quick question(s).... a bit off topic from your discussion points, but food for
thought.

1. Is the OAM specific to each frequency/wavelength?

Doesn't the OAM limit the "extent" that the E and H field boundaries (volume) can
expand from an average centerline value photon? If not, then the rotational
speed of the OAM must increase as a wavefront expands, or else the accepted
EH field wave "model" is somehow inconsistent.

2. If the energy of the wave expands/dissipates over distance, per the ISL, how
does this relate to a source to sink relationship.

Wave expansion radiates omnidirectionally from a "point source".

According to that conceptual model, any resonant atom located anywhere along
the spherical wavefront will collapse the wave, and any subsequent wave fronts
that "touch" it or atoms in the general "neighborhood". This would imply that there
would be an absolute limit to the extent that omnidirectional waves could radiate.
They would always be collapsing at any resonance point along the wavefront
"surface" of the expanding "sphere".

It would be like expanding bubbles being popped whenever they encounter a sharp point.
They could never expand beyond a certain radius because they are being
"collapsed" at fixed points along the leading edge of the wavefront, where ever
there is a sympathetic resonance/detector.

LL
Confused2
Hi Laserlight et al,
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Wave expansion radiates omnidirectionally from a "point source"... [they] would be like expanding bubbles being popped whenever they encounter a sharp point.

A conceptual model that gets round this obvious difficulty is to propose that a spherical wave has a probability to interact with (say) a point. If the point were moved to a distance equal to twice the original distance then the probability of interaction would be reduced by a factor of four .. just as the inverse square law predicts. This rather unlikely conceptual model gets round the difficulty of the photon spreading out 'spherically' by proposing that it is only the probability of interacting with the photon that 'spreads out'. .. the photon itself always has the same energy.
Best wishes - C2.

(I liked the wabbit smile.gif )
Confused2
Hi TRoc,
QUOTE (TRoc+)

...Do the "invisible bunnies" between the slits in the DSE represent "a new kind of x-ray", that works off "phase beats", like a "black light sandwhich"? ..
OR
...[ the medium ]  create[s] a local non-linear effect at the phase singularity, which favors summing of the monochromatic vector beat frequencies

OR
could it be the waves just 'add' (superposition)?
Best wishes - C2.
Laserlight
Hi C2,

QUOTE
A conceptual model that gets round this obvious difficulty is to propose that a spherical wave has a probability to interact with (say) a point. If the point were moved to a distance equal to twice the original distance then the probability of interaction would be reduced by a factor of four .. just as the inverse square law predicts. This rather unlikely conceptual model gets round the difficulty of the photon spreading out 'spherically' by proposing that it is only the probability of interacting with the photon that 'spreads out'. .. the photon itself always has the same energy.


Doesn't your idea violate the source to sink model, which is an "absolute" theory
that eliminates probability. According to that theoretical model, the photon is
only generated when there is a "handshake" between two resonant atoms that
represent a transmitter and a receiver, which is the ultimate "selectivity".

The omnidirectional wave theory seems to have critical "flaws", IMO. It would
seem that for a source to sink theory to work that there must be a type of
directional particle effect at play.

LL
Good Elf
Hi TRoc,

I will try and address a few of your points if I can.
QUOTE (Troc+)
The single "photon" can not be a point particle. It is a stable area created by the geometry of resonant interference, analogous to a stable orbit/spherical harmonic.
It is certainly true that nothing in the universe is a "point particle" and this fact is where everything must go wrong. The reason for String Theory was to address just this point. Whatever may happen in the future this point is where standard physics fails critically. At a "point" everything "explodes" because you have division by zero and infinities popping up and naturally this is not handled by standard physics. The problem is everyone who wants to measure things "assumes" that you can continually measure things with greater and greater precision ad infinitum. You know what they say about "assume"... "Assume" makes an "a-s-s" out of "you" (u) and "m-e". rolleyes.gif
QUOTE (TRoc+)
What you may want to call a "single photon", must be viewed as having more than 2 "independently vibrating" cycles, together in a "packet", or "envelope". This does NOT violate the E = hf hypothesis, because :

A. The "center" frequency, which is the "fundamental" original source, ALSO exists at the "wavefront", or leading edge. The leading edge velocity is limited (by harmonics) to the velocity of the "center" of the packet; both the constant c . There is "zero" Doppler shift, from that frame of reference. This is the "fundamental axis", derived by this "bow shock" wavefront "point", and the "center point" (both are called nodes). Bottom line: the frequency of the emission starts at a node, the center of the packet is a node, and the wavefront (at a point on the axis) is a node, and finally, the absorption/measurement must be on a node as well, or not resonant with the receiver, which would be false by definition for absorption.

And we end up with our fundamental QM equation, E = hf working at the "beginning and end" of the experiment, verifying the definition of the distance between emitter and absorber, divided by an integer # of cycles (distance between nodes x2, or 1/2 wavelength x2) , will yield the frequency of those rates, that produces a constant ratio of the distance traveled, per time (the velocity of c ).


B. In between these nodes, we have "phase velocity" that CAN "travel" at faster than c , but within the limits of the first, and last nodes. This distance (from source to sink) is the "primary mode", and has a constant relationship to c .

These nodes (and the ever present, 'in between the nodes', anti-node peaks) have a relativistically Doppler shifted (RDS) frequency, that has curvature that will be symmetric to the timing of the absorber phase (node location), will self correct, due to this delay, and "off phase" arrival.
The photon is a special "spreading particle", this is clearly different from the "less spreading particles" like electrons. Fourier Theory does "construct" particles out of harmonics but do not think that these harmonics are separately vibrating independent phases inside the packet. It would be better to view this packet as a scaffolding on which a structure can be built. The photon is not just a "wiggly line" it is a spatial fuzziness where the electric and magnetic fields loop back on themselves, the edge of which is more and more defined the more harmonics that are added. Add an infinite number of harmonics and then and only then the packet is fully localized with a very distinct "edge" to it. The basic packet is E = hf and it is a formula that includes all that fuzziness and is quantized. The packet has a quantum size defined by Planck's Constant which is experimentally determined and is . Classical waves with a single frequency use a value of zero for Planck's Constant and so carry no packeted energy.

The photon can be absorbed as a whole or not at all. If the packet has been "shaped" it still contains a quantum of energy equal to hf but it may also contain more enrgy in the form of Orbital Angular Momentum. If the photon is absorbed it is absorbed as the E = hf packet of energy .... the rest of the energy that was used to shape the packet will end up as some other kind of energy .... potential or kinetic. Obviously to absorb a photon packet with OAM the specific electron transition will occur and the OAM will transfer as spin energy to the atom actually imparting some force to the particle as a whole.

In the case of certain other transfers of packets the spin energy is also transferred and the spin of all photons is the same. The photon carries spin angular momentum that does not depend on its frequency. The magnitude of its spin is user posted image and the component measured along its direction of motion, its helicity, must be user posted image. The OAM is a separate spin quantum number that takes values from 0 to infinity... the way it has been classically been manipulated was through the use of tiny holograms to modify the packets.

Returning to the problem of single photon events... It is possible to reduce the intensity of a LASER beam to such a degree using filters that you can positively guarantee that single photons are all that the benchtop experiment is being supplied. In that situation we are observing single quantum events. I know what has been said by some authors but IMHO they are wrong. I fully accept that single photons are being created and propagated and they are source correlated even though there are many wavefronts separating one photon from others that come before and after it.

During the absorption event it is not a node but an antinode. This is the time reversed event of emission which you would clearly identify as a source and an antinode.... a dipole source (turned sink). The sink is also an antinode but phase reversed compared with the source.

Now it is very important to clearly understand that these processes make no sense unless we think of it as a Wheeler Feynman Absorber "pair". The source cannot emit without the sink being able to absorb in the future. Time symmetry is essential for far too many processes and this is a reality that we must accept for individual particle interactions. The future of that particle at the other end is locked in and at the instant the photon is emitted in the "retarded photon" frame of reference from the source the "anti-photon" is launched in a mirror symmetric event from the future of the sink. The way this happens is through the passage of a advanced potential wave that matches the retarded potential wave.... photon by photon as if they were part of the one cavity excitation. Just forget the prejudice about the time asymmetry and possible distance between source and sink (which may be light years) and forget that you are unable to view this event in the far field, the emission and absorption is "prearranged" for that one event... this is essentially why the Feynman Diagrams actually work well.... they too are time symmetric. The photon is "non-local" and this is why it can do this trick, it is connected (entangled) to it's future self in the sink. It can go nowhere else and the photon is time stamped and coordinate stamped and it has a destination address as well. Quantum Theory is a non-local theory. Non-local Events in quantum theory in the earlier years were scoffed at it (that is why the development of the particle theory was so successful) is very clear now that recent developments (Alain Aspect et al) show that any number of "impossible things" now are actually "very possible" in real benchtop experiments. This is the reason why entanglement actually occurs in the real world and it is tagged onto quantum theory as if it was an oversight and is totally "alien" without Absorber Theory.
QUOTE (Troc+)
Why absorption and emission happen in specific quanta. What kind of frequency ratios "spread",
The absorber theory explains why absorption occurs and spreading is a function of the packet "mode". In the same way the mode of transmitting antenna can be modified a similar process modifies these packets. In the case of Bessel Waves they need to be passed through a special lens to shape the pulse just like shaped charges provide different kinds of compression waves so do these lenses.

I suggest that the energy of the Bessel Photons comes from a redistribution of the spatial energy to a limited extent by photon energy "pooling". "Perfect" Bessel Beams do not have a limited extent and extend axially as a series of concentric circular equally spaced standing waves to "infinity". A practical beam falls short of this ideal shape. The energy for the Bessel photons come from the fact that the axicons are optical resonators and transfer photon energy into the Bessel photons passing through the "lens".
Resonators supporting Bessel beams: P. Muys, E. Vandamme
The Bessel beam phenomenon is similar to the use of "resonators" used in radio antennas to modify the beam shape except we now deal with optical frequencies. Lenses are optical resonators, we just do not think of them that way. There is no substantial difference between Radar Plumbing and these optical devices except the scale.

All suggestions are accepted and will be considered...

Cheers
TRoc
Hi all,



Laserlight Posted on Today at 4:23 AM
QUOTE
Consider the idea that the E field and the H field components are orthogonally 90 degrees off axis, but are "in phase" as far as timing and OAM are
concerned.



Well, we all know the areas that this is valid in. Relative to the "photon", however (co-moving frame), too many problems arise in finding the appropriate field lines. They are "emergent and dynamical"; they can get "twisted" so much that they "disconnect" from those original relative coordinates. Then you need to understand "reconnection dynamics", analogous to MHD & Alfven waves.


IMO, these "reconnection dynamics", give a causal explanation for the "after the fact" measurements, of the "single photon" interpretation.



Confused2 Posted on Today at 8:00 AM
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Consider the idea that the E field and the H field components are orthogonally 90 degrees off axis, but are "in phase" as far as timing and OAM are
concerned.



Well, we all know the areas that this is valid in. Relative to the "photon", however (co-moving frame), too many problems arise in finding the appropriate field lines. They are "emergent and dynamical"; they can get "twisted" so much that they "disconnect" from those original relative coordinates. Then you need to understand "reconnection dynamics", analogous to MHD & Alfven waves.


IMO, these "reconnection dynamics", give a causal explanation for the "after the fact" measurements, of the "single photon" interpretation.



Confused2 Posted on Today at 8:00 AM
..could it be the waves just 'add' (superposition)?



Not really. We've covered all the reasons. Why do they NOT have the same effect everywhere? If you're going to "quote" QED "path length" method, then you must understand that "tinkering" with the wavelength dependent RI, and "contracting time", to calculate which "paths" will add or subtract (which ones form loops, or cornu spirals) is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than "tinkering" (for purposes of calculation) with the instantaneous frequency.


My method is dimensionless, and already is "scaled" to the metric that produces c, as well as having the right symmetry to integrate with the Doppler method, and the Relativistic Doppler effect.


I'll segway right into GE comments, they are all related.


First of all, there is a tragic flaw in the "one at a time, linear approach" that has historically been developed. Namely, the multiple quantification of the "field", and "the field" (saying the "photon" and the emitting electron, and the absorbing electron are ALL SEPARATE), giving "infinite" degrees of freedom, that do not exist in the "3D + time" model.


So, while I agree with GE about the "Wheeler-Feynman~Cramer" perspective being needed, in Resonance Theory (RT), it is "built in", and would be redundant to "re-include".


Also, let's not forget that the QM model states directly, that the "probability waves" can interfere, and sum, and beat. They want you to interpret this as the real part, NOT me. I'm telling you, that FROM these values, calculated by the relative frequency changes, I get the answer for resonance.


A very important distinction lies between me EXPLAINING the answer that I already have, and me trying to convince you of a "theory" that might be right. I am doing the former; as well as pointing out either flaws in interpretations, as I see them, and showing that IN EVERY MODEL that we are discussing, the EQUIVALENT to a change in frequency is ALREADY implicit to said model.


I don't need any "agreement", or permission. It is already taking place in every model that you already agree with.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_shift

QUOTE
For waves that travel at the speed of light, such as radio waves, the relationship between observed frequency f' and emitted frequency f is given by:

Change in frequency user posted image

Observed frequency  user posted image

Because the detected frequency increases for objects moving toward the observer, the source's velocity must be subtracted when motion is moving toward the observer. (This is because the source's velocity is in the denominator.) Conversely, detected frequency decreases when the source moves away, and so the source's velocity is added when the motion is away. As mentioned previously this equation is only a first approximation to an exact formula, ..



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
For waves that travel at the speed of light, such as radio waves, the relationship between observed frequency f' and emitted frequency f is given by:

Change in frequency user posted image

Observed frequency  user posted image

Because the detected frequency increases for objects moving toward the observer, the source's velocity must be subtracted when motion is moving toward the observer. (This is because the source's velocity is in the denominator.) Conversely, detected frequency decreases when the source moves away, and so the source's velocity is added when the motion is away. As mentioned previously this equation is only a first approximation to an exact formula, ..



It is important to realize that the frequency of the sounds that the source emits does not actually change.

..

So it is actually the wavelength which is affected; as a consequence, the perceived frequency is also affected. It may also be said that the velocity of the wave remains constant whereas wavelength changes; hence frequency also changes.



QUOTE
If the moving source is emitting waves through a medium with an actual frequency f0, then an observer stationary relative to the medium detects waves with a frequency f given by:

user posted image

..

Other interesting cases are that the Doppler effect is time dependent in general (thus we need to know not only the source and receivers' velocities, but also their positions at a given time) and also in some circumstances it is possible to receive two signals or waves from a source (or no signal at all). In addition there are more possibilities than just the receiver approaching the signal and the receiver receding from the signal.

All these additional complications are for the classical i.e. non relativistic Doppler effect. However, all these results also hold for the relativistic Doppler effect as well.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_Doppler_effect

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If the moving source is emitting waves through a medium with an actual frequency f0, then an observer stationary relative to the medium detects waves with a frequency f given by:

user posted image

..

Other interesting cases are that the Doppler effect is time dependent in general (thus we need to know not only the source and receivers' velocities, but also their positions at a given time) and also in some circumstances it is possible to receive two signals or waves from a source (or no signal at all). In addition there are more possibilities than just the receiver approaching the signal and the receiver receding from the signal.

All these additional complications are for the classical i.e. non relativistic Doppler effect. However, all these results also hold for the relativistic Doppler effect as well.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_Doppler_effect

Since the wavefront moves with velocity  and the observer escapes with velocity , the time observed between crests is:

(see page for full details)

so the corresponding frequency is

User posted image



starting with our "green hand shadow"


User posted image


we will find our "magenta phase bunny", as we approach the LIMIT ©


User posted image


but, it did NOT "go through the wall", or reproduce (by "real" frequencies) any new bunnies. We just "squeeze" things relativistically (without preferred dimension), and we get, through inverse symmetry, the "final answer" which matches our E = hf . It is the REACTION of an accelerated electron in the MEDIUM which plays the vital role in this "chain of transactions".



This is the Rainbow Bridge that must be crossed for us to unite.



biggrin.gif


regards,

T.Roc


ps. GE, I agree that the START of the absorbtion "process" begins on the anti-node, as you said, BUT, it FINISHES on the node. This is that last "relativistic adjustment" than takes place, and is now posible to measure with attosecond resolution. It is this time and space "in between" these events, that has not been able to be measured well enough to make predictions from.

Confused2
Quick summary (hope it's not too far off)..

In the LL,GE,C2 huddle we have some lack of clarity about spherically expanding wavefronts (dipole if you prefer).

LL (still?) favours corpuscles which make the Talbot/two slit interference patterns by a mechanism that does no involve two (or more) slits. Corpuscles fired at random? Corpuscle size not specified.

At present GE offers a photon of size ? which is big enough to 'see' two (or more) slits at once and small enough to go through them. From the pattern it would seem photons normally go through both slits and never just the one slit. No mechanism yet offered to explain this. No obvious method to find anything to make the Feynman-Wheeler exchange with.

C2 favours a probability function which makes the probability of detecting a photon proportional to the area you're looking for it in (modified by vector sum of all paths to that region). Two slits or twenty slits work in just the same way in the C2 camp. Photon size .. probably a point.

TRoc .. ongoing. (Einstein took years to get anywhere .. no criticism intended).

Best wishes - C2.
Laserlight
Hi C2,

You stated:
QUOTE
LL (still?) favours corpuscles which make the Talbot/two slit interference patterns by a mechanism that does no involve two (or more) slits. Corpuscles fired at random? Corpuscle size not specified.




You have truncated, simplified, and mangled our disparate conceptual approaches
with your "summary" statement.

Perhaps I should provide my own simplified "summary", as should TRoc and GE,
but remember to keep it BRIEF....it is after all a summarization of our position(s).



1. Photons are energy impulses, emitted when an electron drops into a lower energy band/shell.
It is a potential energy to kinetic energy conversion process that propagates as
an "enclosed" wavefunction.

2. Elemental atoms are resonant "systems" that have their own energy
signature, according to their net energy levels, and have multi-frequency
characteristics. They emit specific frequencies, and they respond to the same
frequencies due to their inherent resonance characteristics caused by their atomic
structure.

3. Photons have finite volume (extent), that is determined by the frequency and
spatial density of the E and H fields. Fields can only expand at a rate of ©, so their
"extent"(range) is limited by the frequency at which the photon is propagating.

4. The energy "content" of a photon is directly proportional to the area (volume)
over which it is spread, according to the frequency and "field" concentration.
Smaller volume photons have higher energy levels, and higher frequencies.

5. Corpuscular photons can be considered enclosed energy "bubbles", that travel
via wave dynamics. This photon bubble can conform to accomodate different
physical geometrical shapes
, and can "ooze" (for lack of a better word) around
small obstructions that do not interfere with, or "break", the complementary
EH field relationship. The "bubble" form can be distorted up to the point of
breaking wave symmetry, which would cause a collapse and photon detection.
Like water, the photon bubble will seek the path of least resistance to its forward
progress along its propagation centerline energy vector.

6. Coherently emitted photons (bubbles) combine their fields to create a
"cohesive" wavefront that spreads via the laws of the ISL. The coherent photons
will retain coherency to all other photons of the wavefront, regardless of the
distance between them, caused by spreading or dispersion, since coherency is a
point of emission, timing, and phase relationship.

7. A photon's directional propagation vector ("flight" vector) can be altered if it
encounters a change of refractive index in the space thru which it travels. This
includes gravity, energy "wells", refractive media, and "shaped" transparent
media.

8. Coherent corpuscular photons, having wave properties, can interfere and
form energy density patterns, if they have interacted with a geometrical
shape with refractive properties.

Brief, but poignant.

LL
Good Elf
Hi Confused2,

QUOTE (Confused2+)
At present GE offers a photon of size ? which is big enough to 'see' two (or more) slits at once and small enough to go through them. From the pattern it would seem photons normally go through both slits and never just the one slit. No mechanism yet offered to explain this. No obvious method to find anything to make the Feynman-Wheeler exchange with.
The photon can have 'extent"... this is "spreading', which occcurs to the full extent that geometry of the space the photon is spreading into can allow, "photons explore all paths" as waves. The fact that some areas in some patterns are very dark is simply because these are the optical limits of the space in which the light is spreading. Remember the light can't stand around or go backward while it fills up the gaps, each photon mostly exists on a single wavefront of light... Onward ever onward. This defines the space according to spreading light. The way it spreads and the pattern it spreads with define space the same way that the walls of your room define your space you can move around in. To move outside that space would mean that according to the Law of Constancy of the Speed of Light in a vacuum the photon would need to exceed the speed of light or go slower than the speed of light in a vacuum. It can't!! There are exceptions to this of course but in general it can't!! As a group of particles you can retrace your steps and wander around in circles... light can't do that. Particles can... light converted into particle mode can do that.... but this is not the example here.

The spreading is controlled by the "modes". The lowest possible mode photon is a spherically spreading photon but there are others. spin is movement just the same as translation is movement. Light always travels at the speed of light and it can be composed of modes. all photons have some spin but there can be even more spin such as OAM etc. Light with high spin is constrained to a smaller space or to a smaller area... The motion of light can be converted to an eddy or a vortex and then it can't move outside that boundary except as an evanescent phenomena as de Broglie waves. The extreme of these functions are OAM free photons with maximum spread and true particles like electrons that can sit on your desk occupying a very small volume of space. A plane light wave propagating through free space is of the transverse electromagnetic (TEM) type and these are also the type of modes generated in a laser's optical resonator. These waves have no electric or magnetic fields in the direction of propagation and the fields are both orthogonal to the direction of propagation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transverse_mode

The "length" of a photon is only an arbitrary function depending on how long you believe the "fore and aft tails" of the wavepacket extends. In the case of the lowest mode of propagation the shape of the wavepacket is like a big curved spreading pancake of a constant thickness defined by the propagation speed of light (about a wavelength). The majority of the energy of a photon exists within a single 1/2 wavelength of the propagation packet. In Wheeler-Feynman Absorber theory this tail extends across space back to the source and out to the sink, even across time to the other 'end" of the single event.

Photons as particles only have "meaning" at the source where they are created and the sink where they are absorbed. Everywhere else there is absolutely no evidence that they exist as other than that wave form that is spreading in space. IMHO that is all that is really there, there is no such thing as particles between those two endpoints. you may ask what if you intervene and put something there to stop hte photons at a midpoint... According to Wheeler Feynman Absorber Theory this was ever anticipated and it cannot be tricked by "really fast moves" by the experimenter... Check out Alain Aspect etc.. The event happens or it does not.

The emission and absorption events are time symmetric and therefore represent a source with an anti-node "in" a dipole "antenna" radiator and since antinodes are where the energy is and the sinks are also antinodes then that is where there is another dipole "antenna" absorber exactly tuned to the source dipole antenna but the phase is reversed. This time reversed source absorbs the photon rather than emits the photon.... Phase inverted source.

To answer Confused2's question... this is the explanation for the event... there is no photon particle at all outside sources and sinks... until it is absorbed so it spreads only as a wave confined not by an "imaginary" particle "shell" but by the confines of space. We do not need to invent particles where there are no particles and never been particles so the waves pass through both slits and they have no preference. There is no particle riding on the wave .... the wave is all there is to "see".

Does everyone "get" this concept... it is the one I have been 'pushing" all the time. Wave Particle duality means that you can't see any wave aspect if you are seeing particles and visa versa. The Fourier Transform has the time domain and the frequency domain... never the twain should meet.

Cheers
Laserlight
Hi All,

Hmmm, let's see.... we shine a coherent laser beam thru a clear vacuum chamber
(or space) such that the source end of the laser, when viewed from a side angle, is blocked from view.

We do not observe any laser light along the length of the beam, or emanating
from the sides of the vacuum chamber. True, it is collimated coherent light, but
the beam only diverges from its centerline path over very long distances from the
source.

Yes, it is wave energy, and they are photons, but it is concentrated along the beamline. Where is the
omnidirectional spherical wavefront that should be radiating in all directions,
according to photon emission theory? Over extreme distances the beam will
spread away from the centerline at some critical angle of "declination", but
observers viewing it from the side, outside of the beam profile will not observe the
beam, unless they are within that critical angle of spread.

Comments?
LL
"THEY"
So, I finally found a few minutes to briefly read what everyone is explaining over the last 24 hrs. Now I have to ask (since I have no idea what an elephant is to know if you are describing different parts of the same elephant) rolleyes.gif

In what ways are all 4 (or more, but it seems you guys are debating C2, Good Elf, Laserlight, and TRoc's theories) theories THE SAME? aka , what are the commonalities even if said with different descriptions?

I ask because in the past I have had the feeling (at times) you all were arguing over the same elephant, so I want to understand what parts are the elephant, and what parts are the kangaroo.

(ps laserlight - LOVED the wabbit!)
Confused2
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
[ re L.A.S.E.R light ] Where is the omnidirectional spherical wavefront that should be radiating in all directions, according to photon emission theory?

See endfire antenna .. made up of ordinary dipole elements ( http://www.tpub.com/neets/book10/42k.htm ) .. the result is a highly directional beam. A laser has millions (billions?) of elements all working together .. hence the extremely narrow beam.
TRoc
Hi all,


I agree with THEY, that most of the time, we are describing the exact same "phenomena", with different methods, that give different labels, and definitions.



Janrinze pointed out one of the fundamental problems, namely, to predict the "outcome" (absorption) of spontaneous emission. We do not have (perhaps I should say, have not had) the "resolution" to do this.


This is NOT the case for stimulated emission. (the laser, among others).


This discrepancy is the cause of most of the disagreements that are seen on this thread. Radio antennae and lasers are just TOO different, with the current model.


It DOES come down to the SAME principle: the number and positions of the "resonator/absorbers". When the timing of a large body of bound electrons going through transitions is random/chaotic, the effective radiation, as a whole, is spherical, and evenly distributed (between phases). [polychromatic]


When the timing of a body of electrons going through transitions is NOT random, but "self-similar", the timing and direction of emission is NOT random, but in one general direction, then the resonance phenomenon kicks in. Specifically, superpositions are caused, and that creates the "run-away" effect of a high intensity. High intensity is "infinite curvature" (a circle or loop), and by Doppler analysis, is "monochromatic". [the center loop, with no shift ; while changes to these concentric circles denotes a change in frequency]


When this beam of intensity strikes another bound electron, the electron responds to ONE unit of energy (a "photon"), and the superimposed unit of energy CONTINUES on the same path. Since there will be another cycle right behind this initial (exciting) n quanta of energy, when the bound electron relaxes, the photon that it emits is superimposed with this next quanta, REVIVING the extra intensity.


This means, quite simply, that the laser process, described by the "resonator length", continues to be valid "on the way" to the sink (final measurement) via ANY/ALL bound electrons it encounters on that path. This is our medium, and in the case of the DSE experiments, we are in air.


Air is a gas, and the equipartition of energy in that body (in the thermodynamic limit) gives us a lattice that is identical (quantum-ly) to any other "structured" lattice. The limit is "equilibrium", and that is lost the moment the energy pulse enters its boundary. At that point, "fluctuations" are PREDICTED to occur. The Talbot carpet is a holistic view of the relationship between the "photon" moving through this lattice, and CHANGING the equipartition of the potential absorbers, into a PREDICTABLE fluctuation pattern.


Our detectors may have the "dark energy" tuned out, but the MEDIUM can not.


The "wavelets" that connect our "pulses of packets separated by time" never drop to zero. Strictly speaking, the fluctuation in the medium DOES NOT have any "zero energy" time to relax back to equilibrium. This is why, in the "1 photon regime", the SAME pattern builds up, as would have if we sent them "all at once".


As long as the laser is "on", this pattern holds. The medium is measuring modes that the detector has no chance at finding, given the "tuning out" of the "less than 1 photon" fundamental node separation, and the greater than 1 unit node separation (wavelength).



As stated in my original premise, we must take into consideration, the "on the way" interactions, and the "hidden parameter" of the fluctuation that is predicted to occur in the equipartition of energy of the medium, to get our final "on screen" answer.


Only when you understand this pattern, can you get to the point of predicting the re-radiation from that pattern, onto the screen. The pattern follows the same sort of "cascade" as the electrons inside the photon counter: it gets bigger (transversally) as it progresses, forming a triangle, or cone.


Just like all energy transfer, it takes MORE energy to continue "mode hopping" (quantum leap) further out. This is why the pattern has peripheral boundaries.


It takes LESS energy to "revive" along the fundamental axis. This drives the intensity towards the center.


This is the fundamental relationship between beam width, and beam length, as well.



"One Java to bind them, and rule them all".

laugh.gif

http://www.falstad.com/ripple/ex-doppler.html


Number of sources, frequency difference, position difference, boundaries, beats, 3D, ... whatever you want!


regards,

T.Roc


ps. also see this post for further details of the "unit circle" relationship to the "unit radius", outside of pi.
Laserlight
Hi C2,

Your reference took me back to my military radar days. One of the systems
that I supported was a precision radar with highly directional vertical and horizontal
beam profiles used for guiding fighter aircraft on landing approach at night, or in
bad weather. Our antenna arrays used this multi-dipole, phased array scheme, but
were enhanced with focused parabolic reflectors to maintain a narrow beam
profile. We also had beam "circular polarizers" (angled vanes) that could be rotated in front
of the dipoles, that minimized reflections during rain, fog, or dust storms.

Inevitably the coherent radar beam profiles would spread with distance and our
target reflection cut off was 10 miles, since it was only used by air traffic controllers
to verbally give instructions to pilots on landing approach.

QUOTE
A laser has millions (billions?) of elements all working together .. hence the extremely narrow beam.


It is the cavity resonance that takes place between the end mirrors that establish
a highly collimated, directional beam profile.

The issue is the ability to collimate an omnidirectional radiation
pattern
, emanating from a dipole source, or an array of dipole sources.

Even highly focused radar beam profiles have radiation "sidelobes" that can
be detected/observed.

LL
Laserlight
Hi "THEY",

Good to know that someone is still out there. I was thinking that some had
opted to "end it all" by jumping off a bridge. laugh.gif

QUOTE
In what ways are all 4 (or more, but it seems you guys are debating C2, Good Elf, Laserlight, and TRoc's theories) theories THE SAME? aka , what are the commonalities even if said with different descriptions?


IMO, there are more conceptual differences than similarities regarding the
"morphology" of a photon, and emitter-absorber theory. We seem to
be at odds about what a photon "is", what is its essence, its composition, its
geometry, its physics. I think we all agree that there are "flaws" in certain
theoretical elements of QM, QED, QCD, that we are grappling with. Unfortunately,
we have taken our conceptual positions and cannot be pried loose from them.

It's a big elephant, and we can't even agree on its color, much less the finer
details. sad.gif

LL



Good Elf
Hi TRoc, "THEY", "THEY2" Laserlight, janrinze, Jal, Montec, Confused2, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, et al,

QUOTE (TRoc+)
This is NOT the case for stimulated emission. (the laser, among others).

This discrepancy is the cause of most of the disagreements that are seen on this thread. Radio antennae and lasers are just TOO different, with the current model.

It DOES come down to the SAME principle: the number and positions of the "resonator/absorbers". When the timing of a large body of bound electrons going through transitions is random/chaotic, the effective radiation, as a whole, is spherical, and evenly distributed (between phases). [polychromatic] [...] When this beam of intensity strikes another bound electron, the electron responds to ONE unit of energy (a "photon"), and the superimposed unit of energy CONTINUES on the same path. Since there will be another cycle right behind this initial (exciting) n quanta of energy, when the bound electron relaxes, the photon that it emits is superimposed with this next quanta, REVIVING the extra intensity..
There is nothing chaotic in this process unless you subject this to standard quantum theoretical analysis, which we all should be in agreement can only provide bland statistics. These statistics cannot be used to describe individual path or history. We must look into that path and history of photons individually to understand the overall process. These patterns we are seeing are not random and this is simply because there are "hidden variables" in this process that quantum theory cannot provide for well known reasons... Quantum theory cannot predict the fine pattern of lines in a hologram because that involves "paths" and "histories" that differentiate individual photons from similar co-moving photons.

So what TRoc is saying about in resonant systems is very true but we need to identify what it is that resonates. The LASER is a case in point. The gas that is filling the resonator (for gas lasers) is atom by atom resonant with the primary frequency of the photons being produced. Sure it is a cascade, but there are two separate resonances here. The first is the individual atomic resonance and the second is at the integer multiple wavelength of the LASER Cavity length that is also 'tuned" to the exact same frequency of the primary source photons. This latter large cavity tuning affects atoms in the cavity when the individual atoms are positioned at an antinode in the oscillation of the secondary long period semi-continuous wave created by the overall cavity. However the individual emission of single photons is caused by individual atoms being in the right place and time to absorb that excitation energy. Remember there is an excitation source of energy that needs to be supplied to the cavity. This could be in the form of polychromatic light such as a flash tube for instance. Whatever the excitation source the effect is the same... the entire cavity resonates with continuous wave excitation but the source of that resonance is due to individual one off photon excitations and demolitions.

This is very similar to the old Hertzian Resonators which used a spark gap associated with a resonant loop. 'Hit" this loop circuit with a spark impulse and the spark jumps the gap and then the loop resonates like a bell. The continuous ringing is related to a continuous wave excitation that will eventually die away.... the whole "resonant chamber" is ringing. The subtle point is in the case of a LASER that it is not the chamber that is the source of the ringing it is the exact dimension of the cavity that is filled with a resonant "material" that is actually ringing. The resonant "material" is the gas. It must be there for this excitation to occur. You can't lase a vacuum. Individual resonant atoms are absorbing energy from this process and are stimulated to release the energy in a population inversion event. If you look carefully at this that phenomenon the individual atom is the primary oscillator ... individual gas atoms not the chamber itself. The chamber is involved in another process.

This is where the story becomes divergent. TRoc wants (I think... I hope I am not misconstruing TRoc here...) to say that the continuous excitation excites a single atom over and over resonantly whereas I want to say that the individual atom is a "one shot" source of photons.... the quantum is a limited phenomenon ... it starts and it ends. This is not a mystery since this is all the energy that the single atom can hold. There is no internal source of continuous power. Further... the atom can only hold ONE and only ONE photon at one time for just one excitation demolition event. While in that 'charged up state" it cannot accept any further photons and the system is like a primed mousetrap ready to go off, just in need of a "trigger". While this situation is "holding" the atom in it's excited state it is reflective not absorptive. It has accepted one quanta and it can release only one quanta of that same energy, there is no current room for additional quanta. Covering all options this is not strictly true all the time. The release process could be in two steps or perhaps more but the "charging up" process is most certainly a single step process. What I mean by this is for the elemental atoms which are the single source of photons of a particular wavelength. When they are "primed" they may be triggered by a resonant disturbance in the bulk to discharge. But what kind of "disturbance"?

The standing wave in the tube goes from a maximum amplitude in the electric field to a minimum (0) in the electric field. That is at the antinodes (where almost all the energy is). At the nodes ... there is no apparent energy fluctuation there in the transverse direction. What is there at the nodes and at the antinodes in that cavity is that the electric field has a very small component in the direction of propagation. When the photon is "free", in the far field, this component disappears but in the near field inside the resonator, as a secondary source and also in the Fresnel Zone, there is a very small longitudinal component to the electric field (there is also an even smaller component to the magnetic field as well but leave that for the moment). This is a longitudinal field that "pushes" rather than "wiggles".... it is this harmonic "push" in the direction of propagation that dislodges the photon inside the resonant chamber from its filled excited state to do a "step down" impulse in the electron state (or a "step up" impulse for the photon electric field emission process). Atoms that are unsuitably positioned relative to the anti-nodes, even if their state is primed will not respond to the push since they move at the crest of the waves not the toughs... This is a crude but accurate description of the process. Of course there are always a lot of atoms primed and in suitable positions to be triggered into a population inversion event. After the triggered pulse is in the process of propagating inside the resonant tube its influence can then shift this pulse phase along the tube with the velocity of the speed of light sweeping up the remaining primed atoms ready to spontaneously emit... Very much like a "Mexican Wave" at a stadium.

This longitudinal component is a measure of the transformation from a particle excitation evolving into a zero longitudinal component when it becomes entirely a wavelike phenomenon... An entirely transverse wave phenomenon. The property of the proto-photon "particle" is "moving" from a state in which the particle that can experience the passage of time to a state in which the wavelike photon can no longer experience the passage of time and is "frozen" in the far field on the wall of the light cone. This is a small relativistic rotation away from all observers as the photon "accelerates" from the rest frame of the dipole to the moving frame of the "free propagating" photon (almost all totally within the evanescent zone of the finite sized particle). This relativistic propagation phase angle of this photon due to its velocity is arcsin (V/C) where this V is the V inside the evanescent zone of the source, this can be slightly less than C or even far greater than C, but not for long. There is still some residual effect to be seen of this out until it reaches the far field (Fraunhofer zone). I suggest this is due to the "fore and aft" tails of the photon wave packet being connected to the source (and through Wheeler Feynman Absorber theory) to the eventual sink.

It is clear from this analysis that a number of other phenomena are explainable from this perspective. One that comes to mind in the appearance of a tiny neutrino mass which is due to a path resonance. This effect is a function of sources and also secondary sources. The photon is clearly affected by a slight longitudinal component of the electric field whenever it passes a barrier or aperture of any kind. It is probably imperceptible and it cannot be actually easily measured because a measurement will force a collapse of the wavefunction. Protective measurements or effects due to the Quantum Zeno Effect are closely related to state resets. Consider moving from "free open space" into some confined cavity space... the Talbot Carpets in the space makes the photon partially collapse and reset as it encounters the new regime, the photon phase changes 'step" when it encounters this "proximal matter field". This process can happen continually over and over effectively preventing the collapse of the wavefunction through "quantum revivals".

Cheers
yquantum
QUOTE ("THEY"+Sep 12 2007, 07:02 PM)
So, I finally found a few minutes to briefly read what everyone is explaining over the last 24 hrs.  Now I have to ask (since I have no idea what an elephant is to know if you are describing different parts of the same elephant) rolleyes.gif

In what ways are all 4 (or more, but it seems you guys are debating C2, Good Elf, Laserlight, and TRoc's theories) theories THE SAME?  aka , what are the commonalities even if said with different descriptions?

I ask because in the past I have had the feeling (at times) you all were arguing over the same elephant, so I want to understand what parts are the elephant, and what parts are the kangaroo.

(ps laserlight - LOVED the wabbit!)

I must make this brief, but "THEY" could not have said it better.

I know this is fun and great as interaction goes -- but the very best minds in the world have not been able to tell you where the micro elephant is until the wave collapses on its tail. ohmy.gif

If you want something different to chew on, check out decoherence histories.

http://almaak.usc.edu/~tbrun/Data/decoherence_list.html

Best and back to work,
ciao_
yquantum

BTW, it is only theoretical due to the mathematics. blink.gif
Laserlight
GE,

That was an excellent conceptualization of gas ionizaton lasing dynamics, recall
that typically two or more gases are required to create a lasing action. There is
a resonance effect that is established between the energy levels of different gases.

Solid state lasers are somewhat different, requiring different elements in a
lattice matrix, but the result is the same.

Care to tackle an explanation regarding my prior post re a laser beam
not expanding as an omni-directional spherical wavefront?

Regards,
LL
Confused2
Hi All,
On the Elephant front .. I don't think we're seeing the same thing at all, there are bits of llama, kangaroo, apple pie , simpleton and many other things, including (all too often) red herring. Edit **

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Care to tackle an explanation regarding my prior post re a laser beam  not expanding as an omni-directional spherical wavefront?


The endfire antenna was intended as an answer to the 'not expanding' question rather than as an in-depth description of how a laser worked. I was hoping you might might see the narrow beam is the superposition of many spherical (or dipole) wave patterns. My answer to "Why isn't it expanding?" is that they are expanding.

Mirrors and lenses can also be used to create a large number of 'virtual sources' which have the same property of creating a beam that (apparently) does not expand.

I just looks at the applets and says what I see .. does anyone else see the same thing?

Best wishes - C2.

yquantum .. a feast of links .. many thanks. I'm not sure we're quite ready sad.gif .. maybe in a week or two biggrin.gif .

Edit - As a bookmark for myself .. and perhaps anyone wishing to discuss..
"Can the Decoherent Histories Description of Reality be Considered Satisfactory?"
http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9811/9811050v4.pdf

** Two hundred years ago Thomas Young understood that he had a way to measure the wavelength of light ..
Zarabtul
It has to do with perfect resonance. Also it is normally started at least in real laser useage thast is of good calibur with a very low inductance and then a good balance found to make a proper frequency which then you smash an electron at about say 50k-300k watts of power and viola you have this nifty beam that will burn up literally anything in it's path. Now this is all based on the first stage and I've never seen it attached to an actual transmitter and working though i will say that this is one field of study you'll likely not get much intel on since two countries share it at this point and it's China and the U.S. and we know neither of those own these boards. maybe they'll be willing to share maybe they won't... If you coil a wire of say 2 millimeters maybe slightly smaller about three times around your pinkey finger and pray you may be in the right range....
Laserlight
C2,

You are completely missing the point.

LL
Confused2
QUOTE (LL+)
You are completely missing the point.


This isn't an admission of guilt .. but .. you leave me no alternative but to ask you to clarify what you feel the point unsure.gif actually is.

Best wishes - C2.


Laserlight
Hi C2,

QUOTE
This isn't an admission of guilt .. but .. you leave me no alternative but to ask you to clarify what you feel the point  actually is.


I thought you'd never ask! laugh.gif

The point being that "absolute" statements about what a photon "is", it's
morphology, and the requirement for it to spread across all of space
and then instantaneously collapse to a point presents conceptual and theoretical
problems.

Issues, like "it travels in a straight line but must spread as an omni-directional
spherical wavefront are inconsistent". It cannot do both at the same time. A
centerline of direction implies containment/"extent" around the centerline of
travel. An advancing omni-directional wavefront has no centerline or focal point,
and the idea of fields instantaneously collapsing from the far reaches of the
universe to some arbitrary detection point along the wavefront at superluminal
speeds is ludicrous. This "model" presents too many conflicts to be considered
viable.

It appears, that under certain conditions, a photon can be "localized" to a relative
volume of space which is a probability function. It also appears that a photon
can conform
to the space in which it is physically enclosed, up to some
minimum, or maximum, limitation.
Then there is the observation, as in a laser
beam, that a photon can be "controlled" or "structured" to maintain a very tight
particle like (bubble) symmetry, without spreading its contained energy, indefinitely.
It is a part of a coherent wavefront, but maintains it's individual
intrinsic properties while at the same time maintaining a phase and timing
relationship with other photons that comprise the collimated wavefront.

JMHO,
LL
TRoc
Hi all,



Continuing forward...



I don't want to spend too much time pointing out apparent "miscommunication" between my posts, and the "summaries" provide by others, as LL mentioned.


This would be one problem:


Good Elf Posted on Today at 1:21 AM
QUOTE
This is where the story becomes divergent. TRoc wants (I think... I hope I am not misconstruing TRoc here...) to say that the continuous excitation excites a single atom over and over resonantly whereas I want to say that the individual atom is a "one shot" source of photons.... the quantum is a limited phenomenon ... it starts and it ends. This is not a mystery since this is all the energy that the single atom can hold. There is no internal source of continuous power. Further... the atom can only hold ONE and only ONE photon at one time for just one excitation demolition event. While in that 'charged up state" it cannot accept any further photons and the system is like a primed mousetrap ready to go off, just in need of a "trigger". While this situation is "holding" the atom in it's excited state it is reflective not absorptive. It has accepted one quanta and it can release only one quanta of that same energy, there is no current room for additional quanta.



The hope was in vain, I'm afraid. It would be easier for me just to say that, "laser technology" is adequately understood, and explained by the users (in experiments). I have nothing to "disagree" with there.


As for any "divergence", it was in the "translation" from me to you. You are asking me to "argue with the straw man". Giving a "one by one" explanation does not imply that there is only one participant, by itself. If, by my stating "in a large body" you did not get that I was talking about "very many" atoms doing this dance together, then, now, you can.


The "one by one" explanation was given, so that people can see that the NEXT RESONANT PHOTON already implies that the atom is in its relaxed state (the node), OR at the excitation peak (anti-node). Because "photons" have this same property (phase duality), the word "Resonant" means "phase matched": we have TWO ways to do this.


If the REAL value (QM's words) is the "peak" excited state, then this atom would ALSO be SIMULTANEOUSLY resonant with the IMAGINARY (the negative peak anti-node) part of an incident "photon". So, you are right, in that if a Real anti-node phase photon meeting a Real anti-node phase atom (in its first excited state peak) would cause "reflection" (as perfect as their phase match); the atom is "busy" for that caller. HOWEVER, if the Imaginary anti-node (peak) of a "photon" meets with same atom described above, then it IS NOT reflected. It exists in the "opposite phase-space": it GOES THROUGH the atom "undetected". It exits this space with the EXACT same phase as the NEW "photon" that was being created in the process of excite/relax dynamic. That is the superimposed, high intensity wave.


This does indeed happen, and is the cause for an increase in intensity due to superposition. I have offered an alternative to the "real vs. imaginary" phase space interpretation of QM". But you do NOT need to accept my premise, to believe that this is the way it happens, because it is also the same explanation that the experimenters are giving, that agrees with "current" new~QM.


This "feedback loop" is essential for the inversion process to happen. If this did not happen, there would be no conservation of energy, and the population inversion could not happen. That is why Mr. Bohr fully expected the first demonstration of the laser to FAIL; QM predicted NO interference.


There is a combination of stimulated, and spontaneous emission taking place. This explanation (stimulated) did NOT exist at the time the laser came into being, it GREW from experimenting with the laser.


The population inversion is a pure display of Resonance in action: the reflected AND the newly spontaneously created photons (same energy, different phase) INTERACT in the cavity UNTIL the "exit conditions" are met: ALL phases will "settle down" like the "black body curve", where we have a predictable "peak energy", if we know the starting parameters.


The " 1:1 " ratio will never get off the ground, so to speak.


The phases that can exit can be "EITHER / OR" anti-node peaks (real or imaginary phase space).


The phases that are "BOTH" (meaning Doppler shifted off "center" in one "phase space direction" or the other) do not get to leave the cavity.


They must literally go back to the "drawing board" and keep communicating until they "meet in the middle", and agree (resonate).

wink.gif


It is the "triple" potential, that can be divided disproportionately, so that one pair dominates the lone remainder. "Either + Or" trumps "Neither".


Positive and Negative can not co-exist in a "fuzzy" world, WITHOUT "Neutral".


Phase space is a fuzzy world.


A node, plus an anti-node, is only a half-measure; in an "all or nothing world", it equals "Nothing". "Dark~Energy"

biggrin.gif


ciao,

T.Roc
TRoc
Hi all,



I was a little disappointed that no one responded to this link:

http://www.ece.nus.edu.sg/stfpage/elezhucx...olarization.pdf
Dielectric Materials
Chunxiang Zhu


We can simply use the electric dipole moment, based on the distance between a positive and negative equal charge.


There is our node and anti-node relationship.


They consider a dielectric slab. A regularly spaced lattice.


They talk about the "average" dipole moment, and the number of molecules per unit volume. The density of the potential absorbers.


They talk about "macroscopic" measurements, and local (internal) fields.


They say that these local fields "grow", when they are surrounded by "larger dipoles". Huygens' principle at work in molecules (macro collection of node-anti-node pairs).


They say that when these pairs are "spread out", such as in a gas, the local field (medium) is effectively the same as the applied field (EM wave).


They say that electronic polarization is "everywhere", because it is atomic in nature.


They remark that the speed at which the dipoles can respond plays an important role. And that the frequency of the applied field does too.


When the applied field is removed, this polarization vanishes. So does any "standing" waves. Standing waves can not stand alone.


The "fast response" of optical energies (visible band) is in the 10^15 - 10^16 Hz range. This is necessary for Talbot revivals. This is required to explain, that if we increase the "resolution" of a black and white fringe, we get colors. Specifically, we get a "red/yellow" pair, and a "cyan/violet" pair, and these DIRECTLY represent our "half-measures" of node to anti-node distance. "Conspicuously absent" (quote M. Berry) is green.


Resonance Theory predicts that "black and white" are just "magenta and green " that do not have the "intensity" to trigger a response in our (fantastically better than anything built by man) detector/cones. This has nothing to do with "perception", it is the "imaginary space" that was invented by Science, that contains the "imaginary explanation" that magenta is not "real".


This means that we are dealing with a non-linear phenomenon, by approximating "reality" with linear equations. Just like the "book" says.


They go on to say, that there 3 equations that combine (Clausius Mossotti) to explain the relationship between the macro, and the micro.


They continue to explain how large collection of node anti-node pairs (molecules) constitute (equivalent) to a larger pair, which must emit longer wavelengths. This matches the results: lower frequencies.


Then, they talk about "total polarization" being the sum of the different types, all interacting to produce the "final answer": end frequency matches energy expectation.



Let's move forward, and closely examine "the field", so that we can include it in a logical explanation for the SSE/DSE "foundational" results.


regards,

T.Roc

Confused2
LL ..significant post.. we must get back to it. TRoc's on a roll .. I don't want to interrupt.. (again!)

QUOTE (TRoc+)
The field ..

Good Elf
Hi laserlight, TRoc, Neil farbstein et al,

QUOTE (laserlight+)
Care to tackle an explanation regarding my prior post re a laser beam not expanding as an omni-directional spherical wavefront?
It is a very cleaver case of a "phased array" in a field of "active antennas". The resonant cavity is one way to form a phased array by the population inversion followed by the "Mexican Wave" progressing along the tube reinforced by the boundary conditions where the walls are forced nodes and each atom is a microscopic dipole antenna.
Wikipedia: Phased Array
The phased array is a one shot in this case rather than simply continuous "beam steering" by modifying the delays in various antennas using line delays. In the laser tube the "line" is the traveling wave passing through the tube which triggers each primed atom into a directed one sided pulse along the direction wave.

The tubes side lobes are suppressed by having a spatial filter at the exit to the tube to reduce all but the primary transverse mode or even several spatial filters. These will suppress the side lobes even more. It is also conceivable that special pulse shaping is used in the military case to enhance the beam characteristics.
QUOTE (TRoc+)
As for any "divergence", it was in the "translation" from me to you.
Apologies if there is no disagreement and I am being a bit too pedantic. Sorry about that. You all know I am "obsessive".

Regarding charge polarization, I know it is heresy but who still thinks that elementary charge is 'static' and not "dynamic" as in the case of Williamson and Van Der Mark? Static fundamental charge implies that the property of charge relies on two separate mechanisms for formation.... there would be instantaneous fields that "create" charges" in free space from nothing and the existence of charges in particles. On my mind there seems to me that we need to explain charge with a single explanation of topologically wrapped electromagnetic fields which are dynamic in their 'internal" nature... what do others think? What do you think TRoc since I am unsure that you have made a statement on this concept. I think that the charge is not fundamental and it is the electric field that is fundamental and standing waves can produce "topological charge" even in atomic partivcles. That the "wrapping" internal to fermion particles of photons result in charge , parity and the evolution of time as previously discussed... this is CPT-Lorentz Symmetry and related to stable soliton production.

In Williamson and Van Der Mark's Paper....
User posted image
and also...
User posted image
...Click to enlarge...
Where we have the Hubius Helix in there as an internal structure. I think the photon 'spreads" internally and that this may be signalling additional physical dimensions.
User posted image
...Click to enlarge...
Taken from "The nature of the electron" by Qiu-Hong Hu

There would need to be internal structure not necessarily seen in these illustrations to support spreading such as "standing waves" and "diffraction". The appearance of mass is also the appearance of time and space and all particle properties. The absence of time and space and mass seems to me to be the initial state of our Universe (before the "Big Bang"). Correct me if I am wrong but take away the property of mass and we have lost the property of time since massless particles seem to always travel at the speed of light. A universe entirely composed of light and devoid of mass could have no observer ... all observers need mass to have time to make observations. Anything in that reference frame can make no observations of any Universe. All that can be done to that frame of reference is to observe it. So this is a unique "condition"... ontologically nothing can come "before light".... this has philosophical implications even in our Universe.... Agreed?

Cheers
Laserlight
Hi TRoc,

Good stuff!

QUOTE
A node, plus an anti-node, is only a half-measure; in an "all or nothing world", it equals "Nothing". "Dark~Energy"


A half wave cannot be naturally "generated" as a photon, since it cannot propagate
away from a source. A half field would represent a pulsed "DC" component.

It could, however, possibly represent a localized oscillating "field"
possessing a DC polarity component. Such a field could temporarily "change" the
dipole moment/alignment of an atom, making it oscillate/jiggle from its "normal" polar orientation.

JMHO,
LL

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