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TRoc
Hi all,


C2 -
QUOTE
I regret that I don't seem to have established the validity of my method for showing that the results of the Teachspin experiment demonstrate that total number of photons (say per second) with both slits open is the sum of the number of photons per second from either slit individually.



I don't have a problem with the method, or that the total count, at the end, will be the same. Your numbers seem too small, and are not in line with what teachspin is saying, unless you are talking about just a part of the chart. But again, we agree that the total is the same, so it is not important here.


The total area is not our subject. The diffraction pattern is well defined as bands of light and dark, and is much less than the total. The point is that SOMETHING is causing the "bunching" and "anti-bunching"; it is safe to say that the increase in the bright bands is at the expense of the loss of "brightness" in the dark bands.

So, our logical deduction is it is just the "summing" of the intensity (counts). However, this is not a true statement, all of the time. It is an important distinction to make, that it is "correct" in certain circumstances. We want "Science" to be true ALL of the time. We need to refine this.

This "Quantum Thermodynamics" is a dynamic, symmetrical process, and is common to all types of cyclical processes. It ensures that the energy at the start, is the same at the end.


In interpreting the average, or "under the curve" is hard to physically do. It seems to wash out the reason for doing the test in the first place, to find out specific intensity counts for specific points.

At any rate, one thing that stands out, is that this goes against one of your other ideas, that no "photons" are arriving at the dark bands. Are you changing your stance on this?

Your "under the curve" average says that there is NO area without "photons" (in proportion to total area).


The diffraction at the slit is constant, per wavelength. All of the "photons" that go through the slits, and spread out at specific angles. The majority of either single slit results go straight to the screen. Taken as a pair, these major axis are "abandoned" for a "combined path", that draws a 4:1 (2400ps/600ps) "collapse" rate. That is the "new axis" that the interference creates. (actually, re-creates the fundamental axis, or path)

On either of the (left/right) single slit experiments, the "straight through axis" counts around 600ps, and with both slits open, around 2100ps.

Yes, you are correct, because in between these 2 paths, the count drops to 100ps, so we will have a lower average. This "oscillation" of the counts is also SPECIFIC to the 2-slits open version. The single slit counts form a gentle slope; the DSE is periodic.

This periodic exchange the realm of the dynamics of Resonance, and one of the places we find evidence that the 2 paths, or waves, interfered.

The specific, geometrical form, of energy density (many quanta) finds its' maxima at the center of 2 paths. The slit size to wavelength approximates 1:1 . At the center (axis), the fundamental distance is 1 wavelength from each slit-source. This means they coincide with the anti-node of the first harmonic, and "resonate" with constructive interference. At half of this distance (on each side), we have nodes. These are "phase singularities", and cause the maximum "destructive" interference, or our dark bands.

That's my take on it.


regards,

T.Roc
jal
Hi!
From http://www.quantum-physics.polytechnique.fr/#spin
click on "Classical physics" and you will find more java's.
The two slit is at tab #17, #18.
jal
janrinze
Hi all,

are there people on this forum that are willing to participate in testing the hypothesis of particles riding on a wave?

If the wave passes through both slits but the particle only through one it would still be able to be 'steered' by the wave interference.

That would answer the duality question.. It would also explain that detecting the particle would (at least) change the phase of the wave (energy or momentum interchange with the particle would change its momentum and therefore change the accompanying wave) and destroy the interference pattern.

Any ideas?

Jan Rinze.
TRoc
Hi all,


LL -
QUOTE
If we consider the area of one slit as being some finite value, then with 2 slits we are doubling the area. Doubling the area causes a squaring of the photon count.   If we had 3 equal slits then we would have 3x the area, wouldn't the photon count be cubed and be 9x that of a single slit? Or, would the photon count be 8x.....(2^3)?


Some of this is addressed in my last post. It is not "always" square (or sum). The dynamics are just slightly more complex, but still very simple.



Let me provide a few links here. The interaction of 3 "particles" (waves) is quite different from the more normally examined 2 party.

The entanglement aspect, and GHZ (Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger) is important.

Experimental test of quantum nonlocality in three-photon Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger entanglement
Abstract
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
If we consider the area of one slit as being some finite value, then with 2 slits we are doubling the area. Doubling the area causes a squaring of the photon count.   If we had 3 equal slits then we would have 3x the area, wouldn't the photon count be cubed and be 9x that of a single slit? Or, would the photon count be 8x.....(2^3)?


Some of this is addressed in my last post. It is not "always" square (or sum). The dynamics are just slightly more complex, but still very simple.



Let me provide a few links here. The interaction of 3 "particles" (waves) is quite different from the more normally examined 2 party.

The entanglement aspect, and GHZ (Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger) is important.

Experimental test of quantum nonlocality in three-photon Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger entanglement
Abstract
Bell's theorem1 states that certain statistical correlations predicted by quantum physics for measurements on two-particle systems cannot be understood within a realistic picture based on local properties of each individual particle even if the two particles are separated by large distances. Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen
first recognized the fundamental significance of these quantum correlations (termed `entanglement' by SchroÈdinger) and the two-particle quantum predictions have found ever-increasing experimental support. A more striking conflict between quantum mechanical and local realistic predictions (for perfect correlations) has been discovered; but experimental verification has been difficult, as it requires entanglement between at least three particles. Here we report experimental confirmation of this conflict, using our recently developed method to observe threephoton entanglement, or `Greenberger±Horne±Zeilinger' (GHZ)
states. The results of three specific experiments, involving measurements of polarization correlations between three photons, lead to predictions for a fourth experiment; quantum physical predictions are mutually contradictory with expectations based on local realism. We find the results of the fourth experiment
to be in agreement with the quantum prediction and in striking conflict with local realism.
NATURE | VOL 403 | 3 FEBRUARY 2000 |www.nature.com



We can revisit Gbur, Visser & Wolf in the 3 slit experiment.

Complete destructive interference of partially coherent fields
Abstract
QUOTE
A three-point source model is used to study the interference of wavefields which are mutually partially coherent. It is shown that complete destructive interference of the fields is possible in such a ‘‘three-pinhole interferometer’’ even if the sources are not fully coherent with respect to each other. An explanation of this surprising effect is given, and conditions necessary for complete destructive interference are stated. 
 2004 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.



A very recent paper, confirming my hypothesis, is here:

Experimental observation of three-color optical quantum correlations
Abstract
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A three-point source model is used to study the interference of wavefields which are mutually partially coherent. It is shown that complete destructive interference of the fields is possible in such a ‘‘three-pinhole interferometer’’ even if the sources are not fully coherent with respect to each other. An explanation of this surprising effect is given, and conditions necessary for complete destructive interference are stated. 
 2004 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.



A very recent paper, confirming my hypothesis, is here:

Experimental observation of three-color optical quantum correlations
Abstract
Quantum correlations among bright pump, signal, and idler beams produced by an optical parametric oscillator, all with different frequencies, are experimentally demonstrated. We show that the degree of entanglement between signal and idler fields is improved by using information on pump fluctuations. To our knowledge this is the first observation of three-color optical quantum correlations. © 2007 Optical Society of America



ciao,

T.Roc
janrinze
Hi TRoc,

which hypothesis were you referring to?

Jan Rinze.
Confused2
Hi TRoc,
Looking at http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...fications.shtml we see that the slits are given as 0.09mm .. about 160 times the wavelengths of light used (546nm) and the slits are 0.45mm apart (I think we calculated this a while back).

From http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif we see that 1st are of destructive interference is about 0.3mm (about 6000 wavelengths) from the central peak. The maxima seem to occur where the path length difference is a whole number of wavelengths ... and so on .. I won't repeat the DSE equation yet again.
"The specific, geometrical form, of energy density (many quanta) finds its' maxima at the center of 2 paths."
Agreed
" The slit size to wavelength approximates 1:1 . "
It doesn't .. (160:1)
"At the center (axis), the fundamental distance is 1 wavelength from each slit-source. "
We don't know the absolute distance .. simple geometry shows the distance to each slit will be the same at a point between the centre of the single slit diffraction patterns.
"This means they coincide with the anti-node of the first harmonic, and "resonate" with constructive interference."
The first harmonic is 1 x frequency = frequency .. do you mean second harmonic (2 x f) ? We have constructive interference - this might or might be the same as "resonance" if that is what you define it to be - I see no reason why a second harmonic term might be present at this point.
"At half of this distance (on each side), we have nodes"
Antinodes? At half of what distance?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Confused2
Hi Janrinze,
Particles on waves .. I think I see your point .. the particle can only go one way. Seems a bit too simple (ie clever). When all else fails we use the delayed choice quantum eraser http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim-scul...-scully-web.htm to eliminate any possibility of progress. I'll have a think .. perhaps if you do the same we can see what happens.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Good Elf
Hi TRoc, janrinze, "THEY", Montec, Pink Elephant, Laserlight, Neil Farbstein, Confused2, yquantum, Jal, et al,

TRoc... Those references surely demolish the locality of photons once and for all time? The first reference "Experimental test of quantum nonlocality in three-photon Greenberger±Horne±Zeilinger entanglement" shows that three or more photon correlations/entanglements are possible over large distances. It is assumed that each of these photons could be used in separate double slit experiments in the close proximity of each of the detectors... D1, D2, D3. This means that any local theory of photons would fail so photons "riding waves" to their final destination (like some sort of surfboard rider) and still being "entangled" is a little silly. There must be "non-locality". The distance between detectors may be meters or light years ... the correlated photons should still be entangled.

Visser's collaborative Paper "Complete destructive interference of partially coherent fields" naturally support a strong argument for the "spatial clumping hypothesis" of photons "on" or "near" the same wavefront, that is why real zeros in the screen plane can form regardless of the fact that way back at the "original" source there may be large "absolute spatial distances" between the uncorrelated sources in that place. This is fine as long as co-moving and spreading photons can "spontaneously partially correlate on the wavefront" along their path to the final target destination.

This effect is well known experimentally from the time of Thomas Young (though I doubt that he understood why). Photons from the vicinity of the sun's disk (of the same wavelength) must at least partially correlate and interfere otherwise Young's initial experiment would have failed. Photons coming from a very local spatial point in space can correlate with photons coming from a similar angular position and this is spontaneous partial spatial correlation of same wavelength photons. The wavefronts of the individual identical photons have a tendency to merge with each other through the effect of their dynamic and mutual electric and magnetic fields until they (like all photons) attempt to form simple and singular boson states where co-moving photons near or on the one wavefront all attempt to be in the one quantum state, similar to the quantum clumping particle phenomenon for a Bose-Einstein Condensate. They individually still "encode" individual information about their "individual seeking of all paths" but now they combine their influences not to "destructively interfere" but to "constructively interfere" holographically, carrying some of the information from their common sources to a single destination.

This is not a particle influence but a wave influence since the information is "mixing" not "dividing"... summing complex vectorially. In this case with photons the particle component is not the issue but separate situation of pairing in fermions due to 1/2 integer spin, this becomes the essential ingredient to allow the "paired" fermion particles (Cooper Pairs) to enter a single boson wave state due to integer spin... the same phenomenon we have had for space quantization. So real fermion particles and wave only bosons share a common process, the wave as a traveling propagating process at the speed of light and the fermion as a quasi-stationary process (chasing its tail at the speed of light). They only differ in their basic underlying character as flatspace propagation of light vs trapped resonant curved space propagation of light forced to be confined to a limited space. This mixing/unmixing superposition of waves has been supported by a recent Japanese Paper that appeared referenced by me on this thread quite some months ago, about how there is mutual self-organizing wave interactions in light fields... not through particle interactions but wave interactions imprinting "information" between two mostly uncorrelated beams. The combined beams "superimpose" their information becoming a single state.... or at least they try to.

On a more interesting point...Taco Visser's Paper is also a strong argument for my theory of actual spatial boundaries at specific frequencies related to sources that are like "mirrors" correlating them spatially. As I have said this is similar to Bragg's Law in empty space. This interpretation is supported by that reference from the Electron Optics Tutorials. This is why correlation over large regions can "clump" and be partially coherent. Of course this occurs in pure empty space as noted in that illustration Fig. 6 in Visser's paper. The reality of permanent vacuum spatial "vacuoles" near and inside cavities is strongly supported by this treatment.... agreed?

Maybe Janrinze has some comments about this idea of "particles" riding (surfing) on waves. I realize this was an "idea" that was a working concept for David Bohm's Interpretation. I would remark that this crude idea was not entirely a serious concept and it has been extended to a much less local interpretation through Bohm's "Holographic Principle".

What I would like to caution everyone about is the defining of some concepts as "classical" and not allowing the experimental data to redefine them further as still classical processes, as opposed to a very "dynamic" interpretation of quantum theory in which a great deal of flexibility has been allowed for it to morph itself into new paradigms to evade the consequences of the earlier theory. One such "morph" was quantum theory's of locality to be merged into a non-local theory that was never part of the original theory and has been "tacked on" ad hoc. Now the "Emperor's New Clothes" are far more acceptable. It is akin to having the classical theory "nailed by one of its feet to the ground" and unable to flee its hostile pursuers ,while quantum theory is allowed to "hide in the bushes".

This is why it is very necessary to allow the same flexibility to the classical concept to be reinterpreted (as quantum theory has been) to be "free" to show how it can evolve into a "new creature". Call it "neo-classical" or whatever but it is still a classical theory if it is a wave theory.

Cheers

PS: The last reference... "Experimental observation of three-color optical quantum correlations" indicates that correlation in parametrically down converted photons are correlated with pump sources. seems reasonable to me and a useful advance in the transmission of "entangled" information. This is probably extendable to a "large number" of different frequency photons. Some future communications systems will be able to use this trick to encode and entangle a whole lot of data easily. I am unsure what this is intended to show in the context of the other two papers? I would also like to confirm that people are not confusing "correlation" with "entanglement", they are separate though related phenomena.
Good Elf
Hi Confused2, TRoc, janrinze, "THEY", Montec, Pink Elephant, Laserlight, Neil Farbstein, yquantum, Jal, et al,

I would like to pass on that I have been able to duplicate the NASA Double slit experiment and it looks exactly the same as in the picture.
User posted image
... Click to enlarge...
I can assure Confused2 that even this result is easy to greatly improve on with the addition of a simple bit of masking tape and also a diverging lens, the result is "classic". I will see if I can photograph the result soon. I am unsure if my little digital camera is really able to handle this low light image properly but what I see with my eyes is "almost perfect". No conspiracy here C2, its a doddle.

Cheers
janrinze
Hi Good Elf,

the coherence can been show to work when two waves overlap and have the same wavelength. This will create a superposition and the concept of 'wave-riding' particles will extend itself in to a train of coherent particles..

Coherence and entanglement are indeed different things. The theory about entanglement is that it should be possible over many light-years. Thus far the only macroscopic measurements for entanglement have show that the entanglement extends only over millimeters at best. (most experiments are with much smaller distances)

Mathematically there is nothing wrong with the wave-riding principle, even in a Schrodinger equation.. It is just that there is no distinct 'something' that caters for the waving. But we have to keep in mind that the QM probability-waves are also just a mathematical concept that appears to be able to predict QM behavior. In the classical sense you might say that it tells what is possible given the amount of information we have about the state of a system It does not however imply (like Schrodinger's cat) that all possibilities have to be there at once. This is just a matter of interpretation. Since we don't measure anything we cannot be sure what it is. Heisenberg also confirmed that his uncertainty principle was not an axiom for QM but a mere consequence of the QM theory.

It is however by no means a solid theory and it might be easily show to fail to predict many QM phenomena. I just have not taken enough time to see which ones don't fit. From the looks of it, entanglement will be a very likely candidate to disprove the wave-riding mechanism although it hardly proves the validity of QM in the first place i.m.h.o.

I am contemplating some simulation setup to test some theories but I am afraid that I won't have enough time to do just that.

A holographic principle indeed would be able to explain the idea that particles can be 'seen' at different locations at once but in fact that would be just a projection. Since holographic projections make things much more complicated I prefer to keep that aside for the moment and just concentrate on the wave-riding concept itself.

If there is any phenomenon that implicitly contradicts the wave-riding hypothesis then I would like to know because that would be an excellent starting point to check its validity. Disproving it in one way would help to identify that hypothesis as a 'dead-end' or a false hypothesis and may get me back on track on the QM wagon.

I read the links sent by TRoc but I cannot find any information in there that would implicitly disprove the wave-riding hypothesis. They are all very nice examples of the wave phenomenon and just seem to confirm my intuition in respect to wave mechanics. (intuition is not a scientifically significant measure but it does steer one's thoughts through an infinite landscape of possibilities..)

So if anyone has a good pointer here I would be much obliged.

Jan Rinze.
Laserlight
Jan,

You will find excellent info here.

http://www.nat.vu.nl/~tvisser/Pubs.html

LL
Good Elf
Hi janrinze,

Nice to hear from you Jan.
QUOTE (janrinze+)
the coherence can been show to work when two waves overlap and have the same wavelength. This will create a superposition and the concept of 'wave-riding' particles will extend itself in to a train of coherent particles..

Coherence and entanglement are indeed different things. The theory about entanglement is that it should be possible over many light-years. Thus far the only macroscopic measurements for entanglement have show that the entanglement extends only over millimeters at best. (most experiments are with much smaller distances)
Quantum entanglement has been reliably demonstrated over distances of 10 kilometers or more and that was several years ago. I know of at least one experiment in which entangled photons have been recently sent over 144 Kms through free space...
Free-Space distribution of entanglement and single photons over 144 km
To go beyond this with line of sight would require space borne systems. I think we can say that in the vacuum of space we may achieve quite a considerable increase in distance. Personally I think there is no theoretical objection to entanglement over light years.
QUOTE (janrinze+)
Mathematically there is nothing wrong with the wave-riding principle, even in a Schrodinger equation.. It is just that there is no distinct 'something' that caters for the waving. But we have to keep in mind that the QM probability-waves are also just a mathematical concept that appears to be able to predict QM behavior. In the classical sense you might say that it tells what is possible given the amount of information we have about the state of a system It does not however imply (like Schrodinger's cat) that all possibilities have to be there at once. This is just a matter of interpretation. Since we don't measure anything we cannot be sure what it is. Heisenberg also confirmed that his uncertainty principle was not an axiom for QM but a mere consequence of the QM theory.
[...]
If there is any phenomenon that implicitly contradicts the wave-riding hypothesis then I would like to know because that would be an excellent starting point to check its validity. Disproving it in one way would help to identify that hypothesis as a 'dead-end' or a false hypothesis and may get me back on track on the QM wagon.
I think a concept of a particle riding on a wave is quite difficult to accept, I think that would be an unnecessary complication. It seems to me that a vacuum definitely has properties that are responsible for "charge" since electromagnetic waves exhibit instantaneous charges in antennas even though photon "particles" carry no charge individually. What properties do you suggest that photon particles carry if they are not responsible for the electric fields that are being carried by the waves??

As to not being able to measure anything concrete IMHO this is an error. I agree that there are no "probability meters" but we have a very large arsenal of experimental physics that can measure many quantum phenomena using many of the measurables that are possible, you can certainly measure quantum events and a host of other physical properties such as the electric and magnetic field and that is all that we need to know. I have discussed previously on this thread just why the methodology of theoretical quantum mechanics does not necessarily relate to any measurables but experimental sciences relate on a totally different methodology. This does not mean that measurables do not exist. The only troublesome point is making a measurement appears to "collapses" the state... or does it? These recent experiments show that a state that was formerly though to be "collapsed" by particle absorption has been subsequently resurrected. To me this is a sign that the Wheeler-Feynman Absorber Theory actually works. It may work in many other cases and when we are able to track some more of the disparate information "trails" the concept of "decoherence" and state collapse may be just a transition to another bifucation in the information trail.

While a wave has the property of non-locality, and this is the property that particles do not possess, there is a starting point right there. To have both wave and particles existing "simultaneously" for the one entity would need some experimental verification for me to believe it. What we actually have is no experiment that shows for the one quanta, the wave and the particle property being simultaneously present at the same time. This is very important to know. I can see no experimental justification to invoke "matter" or "materials" in this discussion other than the properties of the vacuum and its ability to respond to "electromagnetic stress or tension". "Something' that caters for the waving" as you put it in such concrete terms has never existed, and is the product of the ether theory and that error that some people never wish to drop. We do have actual experimental results that put a material substance to bed as the "cause" of electromagnetic waves (Michelson-Morley Experiment). To me curvature is the "cause" of electromotive fields and we see this with those propagating EM waves which are the force carriers of our Universe. Curvature is also a signature of acceleration and the equivalence of Inertial and Gravitational Force. It is what makes a ball curve relative to the earths surface. This curvature is the way we map space and the distances between points so we are dealing with something more basic and "concrete" than "material substances" and the energetics of this are the Lagrangian and the Hamiltonian and the Principle of Least Action. Indeed it may be the only thing that is "basic" to everything. Now does gravitational curvature have anything to do with electromagnetic curvature? I actually think so through a symmetrization of harmonic terms in electromagnetic fields (SU2 and SU3 for instance). To assume that gravity and the property of mass is a primary property of spacetime seems "too much". Like Einstein I think gravity is not a force at all and neither is mass, they will both be found to be electromagnetic derivatives. This makes sense since all other forces are derivatives of electromagnetism so through Unification these distinctions (if such a scheme is possible) should remove them as being primary. I also think that charge is also topological in nature. This all adds up to no photons riding the waves through the double slits.

Cheers
Confused2
Hi Jan,
Wave-riding .. very similar to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/This_quantum_...nman_route/Bohm ?
More discussion .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory .
I can't see a way to disprove the claim "That's what really happens" if it is tailored to fit what actually happens. Positive proof could come from finding a hidden variable and explicitly setting it in some way .. I guess that's been tried (and failed) many times.
Not helpful, sorry.
Best wishes -C2.
Edit .. possibly having a hidden variable (or several) would make entanglement more 'reasonable' .. but I'm not sure.
Confused2
Hi Goos Elf et al,
QUOTE (Good Elf+)
It seems to me that a vacuum definitely has properties that are responsible for "charge" since electromagnetic waves exhibit instantaneous charges in antennas even though photon "particles" carry no charge individually. What properties do you suggest that photon particles carry if they are not responsible for the electric fields that are being carried by the waves??

Hmm... might it be the case that EM waves cause a separation of charge rather then an absolute dollop of it? If we take a photon of (say) 30Mhz radiation ( E = 2E-26J ) .. wavelength about 10 meters .. can you say what you think is happenning when a photon is 'detected'?
Best wishes -C2.
After-thought - Do you get an interference pattern using slits cut in black card?
janrinze
Hi Good Elf,

This has become a big post so please be patient with it..

QUOTE (Good Elf+May 27 2007, 03:41 PM)

I think a concept of a particle riding on a wave is quite difficult to accept, I think that would be an unnecessary complication. It seems to me that a vacuum definitely has properties that are responsible for "charge" since electromagnetic waves exhibit instantaneous charges in antennas even though photon "particles" carry no charge individually. What properties do you suggest that photon particles carry if they are not responsible for the electric fields that are being carried by the waves??


An electro-magnetic wave i.m.h.o. should not be associated with a particle but it is sufficient to say that the electric and magnetic field is an inherent property of space. Fields in my perspective are 'local' properties of space and Maxwell's equations show how electric and magnetic fields interact. We don't need particles for that .. The trouble started with defining a quantum for a package of energy which could be seen by the photo-electric effect. I agree that the current view is that there must be a photon. Not sure how to combine those yet.. But that is the whole theme here, right?
As for EM waves and antenna's they are not related to quantum mechanical effects per se. In radio terms, the waves just make the free electrons move and the proper resonant electronic circuit will amplify the resonant frequency. The energy in a photon is not used when calculating absorbed energy from an EM wave by means of an antenna. So could you show a paper or calculation where the quanta are needed to have 'radio-reception'? The only place where they are necessary is with making electrons change their orbital (state) to a higher energy level.

I am not saying that we should abandon photons but apparently when we are dealing with (very) long wavelengths we use different methods of energy conversion and those don't seem to need quanta for their calculations.

Not sure how to mix those yet...

QUOTE (Good Elf+May 27 2007, 03:41 PM)

As to not being able to measure anything concrete IMHO this is an error. I agree that there are no "probability meters" but we have a very large arsenal of experimental physics that can measure many quantum phenomena using many of the measurables that are possible, you can certainly measure quantum events and a host of other physical properties such as the electric and magnetic field and that is all that we need to know. I have discussed previously on this thread just why the methodology of theoretical quantum mechanics does not necessarily relate to any measurables but experimental sciences relate on a totally different methodology. This does not mean that measurables do not exist. The only troublesome point is making a measurement appears to "collapses" the state... or does it? These recent experiments show that a state that was formerly though to be "collapsed" by particle absorption has been subsequently resurrected. To me this is a sign that the Wheeler-Feynman Absorber Theory actually works. It may work in many other cases and when we are able to track some more of the disparate information "trails" the concept of "decoherence" and state collapse may be just a transition to another bifurcation in the information trail.

I guess I have some reading to catch up on. It also shows that the views of wave collapse are in need of rethinking..
Quantum states can be a lot of things. It is not my intention to replace those with a hypothesis of a particle on a wave. It is just that the DS experiment hints at the possibility that there might be both present at the same time. (to make it a more consistent universe i.m.h.o. this would make much more sense to me)

So in short: The wave I suggest is neither EM nor a 'probability' wave. It seems to me that it must be a more fundamental property of space that does the 'waving' It might just be the related to gravity or inertia. (which is a long shot of course but the wave apparently has a direct link with mass and velocity)
EM and other waves will do their thing next to the wave that the hypothesis suggests. So a two slit experiment with photons can be seen as an EM interference pattern whereas a two slit experiment with atoms or even bucky-balls could be seen as an interference pattern of this newly proposed wave. (gravity related wave?)
Unless you suggest that all particles are made-up of EM waves..
QUOTE (Good Elf+May 27 2007, 03:41 PM)

While a wave has the property of non-locality, and this is the property that particles do not possess, there is a starting point right there. To have both wave and particles existing "simultaneously" for the one entity would need some experimental verification for me to believe it. What we actually have is no experiment that shows for the one quanta, the wave and the particle property being simultaneously present at the same time.

Actually we never really measure any waves at all!
We only measure indirect evidence of the wave because we measure the interference pattern by collapsing the wave and actually having a particle interact with another particle (the irony!)
QUOTE (Good Elf+May 27 2007, 03:41 PM)

This is very important to know. I can see no experimental justification to invoke "matter" or "materials" in this discussion other than the properties of the vacuum and its ability to respond to "electromagnetic stress or tension". "Something' that caters for the waving" as you put it in such concrete terms has never existed, and is the product of the ether theory and that error that some people never wish to drop.

I think you really misunderstand me here. It has only been about 100 years since we discovered EM waves. Gravity waves are a distinct possibility but we have not yet measured them (i.i.r.c.) The chances of other fields and waves are hardly 0 i.m.h.o. we just don't see them in our daily life. (just as we can't see radio waves without a radio.. The reason that we cannot 'see' them is purely a biological imperative. The fact that our eyes can sense light has spurred science to explain and prove theories about light.)
The fact that we have no receptors for those waves may either be because we cannot use the wave information usefully for our daily life (evolutionary imperative, if all objects would emit equal amounts of light in the same wavelength the world would be 'seen' as white all over) or the energy-conversion is not within the reach of biological systems like us.
So I am still convinced there may be other field properties of the vacuum next to magnetic and electric which could cater for waving phenomena. There is no real necessity for electrical and magnetic fields yet they exist. Their contribution to the processes in the universe are well understood ever since Maxwell but they don't cater for all the QM phenomena.

But for your ease of mind, an aether theory is absurd in it self since the use of a material substance to explain material substances is utterly nonsensical and creates a recursive loop of explanations..
QUOTE (Good Elf+May 27 2007, 03:41 PM)

We do have actual experimental results that put a material substance to bed as the "cause" of electromagnetic waves (Michelson-Morley Experiment). To me curvature is the "cause" of electromotive fields and we see this with those propagating EM waves which are the force carriers of our Universe. Curvature is also a signature of acceleration and the equivalence of Inertial and Gravitational Force. It is what makes a ball curve relative to the earths surface. This curvature is the way we map space and the distances between points so we are dealing with something more basic and "concrete" than "material substances" and the energetics of this are the Lagrangian and the Hamiltonian and the Principle of Least Action. Indeed it may be the only thing that is "basic" to everything. Now does gravitational curvature have anything to do with electromagnetic curvature? I actually think so through a symmetrization of harmonic terms in electromagnetic fields (SU2 and SU3 for instance). To assume that gravity and the property of mass is a primary property of spacetime seems "too much". Like Einstein I think gravity is not a force at all and neither is mass, they will both be found to be electromagnetic derivatives. This makes sense since all other forces are derivatives of electromagnetism so through Unification these distinctions (if such a scheme is possible) should remove them as being primary. I also think that charge is also topological in nature. This all adds up to no photons riding the waves through the double slits.

Cheers


Where should I begin here...

Ok, here it goes.

If curvature is the same as gravity (as proposed by Einstein) how can that same curvature be electrical and magnetical.. This would imply that you believe that electrical 'fields' are curvatures of space. Only 'visible' for particles with charge. The spin and magnetic properties become pretty hard to combine in such a model i.m.h.o. But I could put my mind to considering such a thing.
The analogy is not really good since the force of gravity is much less than the electrical and magnetic forces. In fact if EM waves are photons then photons would only be a form of knotted space. And both be a local and a non-local phenomenon so it not the space and yet it is .. (hmm.. got to think about that)

As for being topological I totally agree. I can almost say that all particles and properties are merely topological phenomenon within some aggregate of fields waving or something.. (eliminating the need for 'solid' particles..)
The hard thing to do is to get from non-locality to locality here. (we might even be able to do something within mathematics to cater for such an effect..)

That is it for now, I have to ruminate on this for a while I think..

Jan Rinze.
P.S. I like this mental chess game a lot! Cheers to all.
Laserlight
Hi All,

Just a different perspective on the whole photon "particle" wave riding theme.

Everywhere in nature, waves are energy dislocations that displace the medium
that is "transporting" the energy pulse as it moves. There is no single "particle"
that is radiating outward from the source that is perpetually riding the wave like a
surfer. The energy density of the travelling wave is distributed into the energy
density of the transporting medium until the energy is fully absorbed and the wave
dissipates/collapses because it cannot sustain itself, but that is a
physical/mechanical mechanism in a "closed" energy system where energy
is physically transported.

EM field energy has different characteristics. GE has rightly pointed out that EM
energy, in the form of a single photon "package", will traverse space forever,
perpetually regenerating its own wave. That wave package will only collapse
if it is absorbed by matter. It will maintain the same quantum of energy without
dissipating or distributing it to space.

This raises the question of how a pure energy pulse can self regenerate to sustain
a discrete, constant amount of energy without some causal factor that is
responsible for generating a localized field. Is a photon a particle or a
quasiparticle that is reactive with space and presents a waveform signature in our
spacetime? I believe that it was GE that previously proposed that a photon might
indeed be a type of particle that exists at the interface between our dimensionality
and some dimension perpendicular or parallel to our own. Under this scenario
a "wave riding" particle might be theoretically possible, but we could never detect
its physicality because it resides in a different plane of existence from our own.

We can measure its EM signature and "impact" on our spacetime, but it exists
outside of our physical ability to dimensionalize it other than measuring the
quantum energy that it displaces as kinetic energy when it displaces matter.
This could account for the wave-particle duality characteristics that are so
difficult to properly explain.

Comments?
LL
Laserlight
Hi Jan and All,

I would like to further develop/discuss some of the ideas that you have proposed, since
we are at an impasse on the root cause and nature of light and the DSE.... 200+
years and counting.

QUOTE
So I am still convinced there may be other field properties of the vacuum next to magnetic and electric which could cater for waving phenomena. There is no real necessity for electrical and magnetic fields yet they exist. Their contribution to the processes in the universe are well understood ever since Maxwell but they don't cater for all the QM phenomena.

But for your ease of mind, an aether theory is absurd in it self since the use of a material substance to explain material substances is utterly nonsensical and creates a recursive loop of explanations..


I agree, space has inherent qualities some which we may not yet know or
understand. It is these "characteristics" that influence matter, energy, and
spacetime as we know it, but I think we do not yet understand all that there is to
know. How do you prove something that you cannot measure? Science can
predict and assign similarities to known and well characterized phenomena but
physical proof can be a daunting or impossible task, so theory is our only vehicle
under these circumstances.

Actually, I think the concept of aether theory is "misplaced", due in part to the
technical and informational limitations of early scientific pioneers. I agree that it is
not directly related to "matter" as some early theories suggest, but that does not
include or exclude that it might exist as some other as yet undetected ubiquitous
energetic "field" phenomenon that changes its spatial "density" or impedance
characteristics when coupling to the localized energy fields surrounding matter.

I believe that matter couples its energy to the energy of space and this causes
distortions in the fabric of spacetime in the form of geodesics and is the basis
of gravity. This is why I conclude that gravity is a dislocation/warpage of
"static" spatial energy fields that react to the presence of energy/mass density and
are the cause and effect of spacetime.

If you can imagine a cubic meter of space located at much different distances from
an energy source, there will be an energy density that is coursing thru that volume of space.
That energy density will vary with square of the distance from the
energy source. Correspondingly, the gravitational field will vary with the
distance from the source. I know that GE will argue against this concept, he
already has, but consider that the gravitational field on the surface of the sun
is much stronger than the gravitational field say at 200 million miles away from the
surface. The gravitational field strength decreases with its dissipation over
distance, that is why geodesics follow a curved path, when in proximity to a
massive object, that have a locus that is the end point of a trajectory that ends
at a massive surface.

As you know, geodesics follow an exponential curvature that increases with
distance from the start point. Beyond a certain finite distance from the source,
the geodesic forms a relatively straight line. IMHO, there is a direct correlation to
energy density/displacement per unit volume of space and gravitational strength
that can be measured at that locale in space.

Potential energy can be associated with stationary electric and magnetic fields
generated by a mass such as the sun. It can also be associated with
dynamic/kinetic fields that are being emitted in the form of EM radiation/light, but
I also propose that energy coupling between a mass and adjacent space displaces
or changes the energy density of the localized space that is being coupled to.

Neutrons that have no external charge association still generate gravitational
attraction which I have suggested is due to energy coupling between the
internalized EM fields of the neutron and adjacent space. So, does a neutron
violate GE's requirement for an external electric or magnetic field as being
necessary for generating gravity? It is true that gravitationally massive neutron
stars possess very intense electric and magnetic fields, but this is likely due to
the electromagnetic dynamo effect of electrons cycling/aligned between the poles
of the star.


Comments, discussion welcomed?
LL
Guest
What if Gravity is a force bleeding through from the quantum or molecular to the celestial? Similar to the Van der Waals force for molecules, considering VdWF is created by a cluster of particles creating atoms, atoms creating molecules. What stops me from assuming a cluster of molecules working mutually doesn’t create another force in the celestial called Gravity? It could be a weak force if tuned to molecular or atomic scaled intensity, amalgamated forces creating a background emanating effect...

Just thoughts
janrinze
Hi Laserlight,

another long post from me, sorry..

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 08:34 PM)

Everywhere in nature, waves are energy dislocations that displace the medium
that is "transporting" the energy pulse as it moves.  There is no single "particle"
that is radiating outward from the source that is perpetually riding the wave like a
surfer.  The energy density of the travelling wave is distributed into the energy
density of the transporting medium until the energy is fully absorbed and the wave
dissipates/collapses because it cannot sustain itself, but that is a
physical/mechanical mechanism in a "closed" energy system where energy
is physically transported.


This is from a point of view where there is such a medium. I have pointed out much earlier in a post that for waves there needs to be an exchange between at least two types of energy. Like a pendulum the oscillation between these two kinds of energy can be described by a differential equation and have a solution in the form of e^(iwt) or more simple as sin(wt) and cos(wt). This principle applies to all waves and harmonic oscillations. So to say that energy is 'physically' transported is unfortunately never true. Atoms don't 'touch' and all interaction is based upon fields. (electric and magnetic fields mostly)
This implies that the vacuum must be able to store infinite amounts of energy..
(which we can call 'fields')

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 08:34 PM)

EM field energy has different characteristics.  GE has rightly pointed out that EM
energy, in the form of a single photon "package", will traverse space forever,
perpetually regenerating its own wave.  That wave package will only collapse
if it is absorbed by matter.  It will maintain the same quantum of energy without
dissipating or distributing it to space.


This seems strange to me since regenerating waves infinitely sounds like an infinite amount of energy needed to make that happen. (inverse square law etc.)

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 08:34 PM)

This raises the question of how a pure energy pulse can self regenerate to sustain
a discrete, constant amount of energy without some causal factor that is
responsible for generating a localized field.  Is a photon a particle or a
quasiparticle that is reactive with space and presents a waveform signature in our
spacetime?  I believe that it was GE that previously proposed that a photon might
indeed be a type of particle that exists at the interface between our dimensionality
and some dimension perpendicular or parallel to our own.  Under this scenario
a "wave riding" particle might be theoretically possible, but we could never detect
its physicality because it resides in a different plane of existence from our own.

pure energy is a myth in itself. there in no such thing. Energy is an abstract mathematical construct used for equivalence calculations.
Any particle will be subject to the influences of its surrounding space. Better it is a definition of a specific manifestation (or property) of space itself. Somehow people seem to see particles as something separated from the surrounding space. A picture that seems to be intensified by artistic impressions like a mass sitting on top of a curved membrane. The particle or mass will roll 'down' on the membrane towards a lower region.. This picture is very wrong and implicitly needs 'gravity' itself to prove gravity..

so mass does not 'curve' space but it is a bump in space itself.. And if this bump would only be the 'intensity' then it might even be just a wave.

We use too many analogies based on stuff we can see and therefore create recursive questions with recursive answers.. Membranes work by the fact that the molecules attract each other and we thus create a vast network of springs attached between neighboring molecules etc. This will all eventually lead to an aether like solution which in turn gets us back at square one.

We should be looking more into the direction of minkowsky-like reality planes that connect the world as if it is a single event. (The minkowsky plane will be similar to the wavefront and maybe we should compress the wavefront mathematically to a single point.) I can't get any consistent theory around this single event idea but it has potential i.m.h.o.

We still need to make a bigger step..

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 08:34 PM)

We can measure its EM signature and "impact" on our spacetime, but it exists
outside of our physical ability to dimensionalize it other than measuring the
quantum energy that it displaces as kinetic energy when it displaces matter.
This could account for the wave-particle duality characteristics that are so
difficult to properly explain.

Comments?
LL

Yet another dimension needed for something to be explained.. why is it that whenever things get hard, people use solutions which exclude them from being verifiable. (as in implicitly undetectable and such..)
I would welcome theories that would reduce dimensions and simplify models without resorting to more complex reasoning. Even a solution that eliminates time (since it is only a frame of reference which seems to be moving consistently 'forward.') should be very feasible.

I think we're all still looking in the wrong direction somehow.

Jan Rinze.
Laserlight
Hi Guest,

I like your approach.

IMO, VdW force is an electrostatic force, which is a coupling of electrical charge
energy to nearby space, so it changes the ambient nature of that space that is
being affected. In this case opposite polarity charges attract, while even charges
repel and there is a polarity alignment requirement, which when scaled up can
yield a field orientation if poles are aligned. But what of the case of a multipolar
mass where the fields are evenly distributed?

London Dispersion Forces seem a likely candidate for promoting gravity
since it involves dipole attraction, and dipoles are energy "antenna" sources and
sinks at the atomic level. So that fits my "energy coupling to space" model and
it might also fulfill GE's EM field for gravitational field requirement.

Actually, I think we are visualizing the same elephant from different perspectives,
ala the analogy of the blind men describing an elephant by touching different
portions of the elephants anatomy. It is the same critter, but they see things
differently based on what they are "observing".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Waals_force

Comments, discussion welcomed.
LL
Laserlight
Hi Jan,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with almost everything you said.
Now what? biggrin.gif


QUOTE
Yet another dimension needed for something to be explained.. why is it that whenever things get hard, people use solutions which exclude them from being verifiable. (as in implicitly undetectable and such..)
I would welcome theories that would reduce dimensions and simplify models without resorting to more complex reasoning. Even a solution that eliminates time (since it is only a frame of reference which seems to be moving consistently 'forward.') should be very feasible.


How would you dimensionalize a fixed electric or magnetic field in a fixed volume of
space? The field is there, it is "static" but other than field intensity how can you
quantify anything more about the existence of the field that "exists" in that space?

It has no mass, it "fills" a volume, the energy that it contains/diplaces can be
"tapped", but it is relatively dimensionless. It has characteristics that we cannot
see, but that we can measure/observe as flux density or field strength, only when
it interacts with matter. As far as I know a fixed field has no time characterization,
however a moving field does have a time element/dimension.

So yes, it exists as a force, but how do you dimensionalize forces in our spacetime
without some causative or influencing variable. Personally, I have a tough time
accepting extra-dimensionality but am keeping an open mind/opinion on the
topic. We (GE and I) have argued this topic before. FWIW, you and I have
expressed the exact same argument, but I do admit that there are limits to
our current available knowledge and nothing should be summarily dismissed. smile.gif

Comments, discussion welcomed.
LL
TRoc
Hi all,


C2 -
QUOTE
(me) " The slit size to wavelength approximates 1:1 . " , (C2)
It doesn't .. (160:1)


Technically correct. Let me explain why I say that.


You asked earlier in this thread, about the value of the "pre-slit" (the first slit, before the slit pair-wall). I had started this conversation about the "tooth", or area between the slits (slit separation) reflecting back the central part of the wave. Very practically, the slit is a like a bandpass filter, allowing only wavelengths less than its' width through, without any change in wavelength due to reflections in the pre-slit cavity. (pre-slit cavity defined as the area between the first "staging" slit, and the 2-slit wall)

The 2-slit wall is carefully placed in the maxima of the diffraction pattern of the pre-slit. Side lobes are "lopped off" (reflected), and coherence is increased. This is not necessary with the laser. The "tooth" rejects the most probable path, and changes the flow of energy, perpendicular to the fundamental axis. This is the similarity to entanglement. I view Superposition, and Entanglement in an inverse relationship. Taking what was "one", and dividing it into "two" (w/ opposite phase) parts that are connected by their path, vs. taking two things, and making them "one", sharing the same space. I realize their differences, but, as GE said, "..they are separate though related phenomena".

Each new "beam", coming from each slit, has an adjusted wavelength (by equal amounts). The image is the slit, with its' specific size. This is what is being recreated at the screen. Because the spreading (wavelength increase) at the pre-slit diffraction is what goes through the 2-slit set up, the size limit of the slit itself becomes a better approximation for the adjusted wavelength. The cavity, with an exit aperture, is our ONLY real example of a "black body". In the DSE, the fact that the slit is larger than the incident wavelength, allows for reflections (with loss of energy) to still come through the "bandpass" slit. That is why I say we can use a 1:1 ratio for the slit width to wavelength. Recall that (your) method uses points drawn across the entire width of the slit to establish differences in path lengths. It also assumes a bandwidth wider than the source, because of the wider slits.

It is an oversimplification, of course, because there are more parameters that can affect our resulting pattern. However, the relationship of the ratios "will seek a minimum" when they are all included. [ slit width / slit separation .. wavelength / slit separation .. slit separation / distance to screen ]

Keep in mind, that my system uses ratios between 1:1 and 1:2 to define resonance, with the harmonic series.

At any rate, now we have 2 coherent sources, separated by a distance (the slit separation). With 2 interacting waves, the distance between them establishes modes, or a set of whole (integer) wavelengths (or double frequency "harmonics") that can exist. The fundamental mode is one wavelength, or the distance itself. This has a node at the center point, and is our fundamental (original) axis. From this center node, if we go 1/2 the distance towards the new axis, we would be at the anti-node of the second mode ( 2 wavelengths = slit separation).

The number of modes is directly proportional to the distance from the 2-slit wall, to the screen. There is symmetry in the # of modes from pre-slit, to 2-slit, and then from 2-slit, to screen. The entire pathlength is 1 meter, with the 2-slit wall ~halfway.


This is supported by Huygens Principle, that we can treat each slit as a new source. Even if we use 2 different sources (partially coherent), it is experimentally shown, that the waves coming from each slit are correlated all the way to the screen.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
(me) " The slit size to wavelength approximates 1:1 . " , (C2)
It doesn't .. (160:1)


Technically correct. Let me explain why I say that.


You asked earlier in this thread, about the value of the "pre-slit" (the first slit, before the slit pair-wall). I had started this conversation about the "tooth", or area between the slits (slit separation) reflecting back the central part of the wave. Very practically, the slit is a like a bandpass filter, allowing only wavelengths less than its' width through, without any change in wavelength due to reflections in the pre-slit cavity. (pre-slit cavity defined as the area between the first "staging" slit, and the 2-slit wall)

The 2-slit wall is carefully placed in the maxima of the diffraction pattern of the pre-slit. Side lobes are "lopped off" (reflected), and coherence is increased. This is not necessary with the laser. The "tooth" rejects the most probable path, and changes the flow of energy, perpendicular to the fundamental axis. This is the similarity to entanglement. I view Superposition, and Entanglement in an inverse relationship. Taking what was "one", and dividing it into "two" (w/ opposite phase) parts that are connected by their path, vs. taking two things, and making them "one", sharing the same space. I realize their differences, but, as GE said, "..they are separate though related phenomena".

Each new "beam", coming from each slit, has an adjusted wavelength (by equal amounts). The image is the slit, with its' specific size. This is what is being recreated at the screen. Because the spreading (wavelength increase) at the pre-slit diffraction is what goes through the 2-slit set up, the size limit of the slit itself becomes a better approximation for the adjusted wavelength. The cavity, with an exit aperture, is our ONLY real example of a "black body". In the DSE, the fact that the slit is larger than the incident wavelength, allows for reflections (with loss of energy) to still come through the "bandpass" slit. That is why I say we can use a 1:1 ratio for the slit width to wavelength. Recall that (your) method uses points drawn across the entire width of the slit to establish differences in path lengths. It also assumes a bandwidth wider than the source, because of the wider slits.

It is an oversimplification, of course, because there are more parameters that can affect our resulting pattern. However, the relationship of the ratios "will seek a minimum" when they are all included. [ slit width / slit separation .. wavelength / slit separation .. slit separation / distance to screen ]

Keep in mind, that my system uses ratios between 1:1 and 1:2 to define resonance, with the harmonic series.

At any rate, now we have 2 coherent sources, separated by a distance (the slit separation). With 2 interacting waves, the distance between them establishes modes, or a set of whole (integer) wavelengths (or double frequency "harmonics") that can exist. The fundamental mode is one wavelength, or the distance itself. This has a node at the center point, and is our fundamental (original) axis. From this center node, if we go 1/2 the distance towards the new axis, we would be at the anti-node of the second mode ( 2 wavelengths = slit separation).

The number of modes is directly proportional to the distance from the 2-slit wall, to the screen. There is symmetry in the # of modes from pre-slit, to 2-slit, and then from 2-slit, to screen. The entire pathlength is 1 meter, with the 2-slit wall ~halfway.


This is supported by Huygens Principle, that we can treat each slit as a new source. Even if we use 2 different sources (partially coherent), it is experimentally shown, that the waves coming from each slit are correlated all the way to the screen.


The first harmonic is 1 x frequency = frequency .. do you mean second harmonic (2 x f) ?


I would say that the 1f is the fundamental frequency, and 2f the first harmonic. This is where some terminologies get mixed up. My method uses frequency "doubling" as fundamental, rather than integer multiples.


I've run out of time for now, but would like to still talk about "how to get a single photon from a flashlight bulb, and a green filter, by turning down the voltage". I'll be counting how many electrons are in the tungsten filament for a little while. laugh.gif

Does anybody think that they could produce a low enough power radio wave that, after just one radio received the signal, that the wave "collapsed"?

Would anyone accept it if I spaced separate radio antennae just right, so that each one sequentially tuned in our pulsed signal, and then I claimed that there were no radio waves between antennae? What if I "measured" in between receivers?


regards,

T.Roc

janrinze
Hi Laserlight,

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 11:37 PM)
Hi Jan,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.  I agree with almost everything you said.
Now what? biggrin.gif


Personally for me it is time to get some sleep.. Maybe I can dream up some new theory wink.gif

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 11:37 PM)

How would you dimensionalize a fixed electric or magnetic field in a fixed volume of
space?  The field is there, it is "static" but other than field intensity how can you
quantify anything more about the existence of the field that "exists" in that space?

It has no mass, it "fills" a volume, the energy that it contains/diplaces can be
"tapped", but it is relatively dimensionless.    It has characteristics that we cannot
see, but that we can measure/observe as flux density or field strength, only when
it interacts with matter.  As far as I know a fixed field has no time characterization,
however a moving field does have a time element/dimension.


strictly speaking there are no fixed fields.. everything moves/changes and so there are only fluctuating energies in all sorts and sizes for each infinitesimal part of the vacuum.. probably just a matter of perspective and taste I guess.
Not having mass is also something we must consider to be irrelevant for 'existence' since mass is space curvature but does not necessarily imply charge. It would be great to find massless 'particles' that do have a charge..

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 11:37 PM)

So yes, it exists as a force, but how do you dimensionalize forces in our spacetime
without some causative or influencing variable.  Personally, I have a tough time
accepting extra-dimensionality but am keeping an open mind/opinion on the
topic.

It will only be perceived as a force at the particle. Which will eventually absorb this energy and convert it into some other form like kinetic energy.
So how it is 'stored' in a hard vacuum is hardly relevant but highly interesting from a more philosophical point of view I guess. Understanding differs tremendously from dogmatic answers.. We try to view the vacuum as a scaffolding for properties in the form of fields. But does that imply that the scaffolding is 'physical' or merely a metaphor.
QUOTE (Laserlight+May 27 2007, 11:37 PM)

We (GE and I) have argued this topic before.  FWIW, you and I have
expressed the exact same argument, but I do admit that there are limits to
our current available knowledge and nothing should be summarily dismissed. smile.gif


Guess I should conclude that we are 'alike' minds on this forum..
We still need more 'noise' from other participants in this forum to trigger us and get to a higher level of understanding.. (see Monte-Carlo approximation methods rolleyes.gif)

Jan Rinze,
(who is still very much enjoying this forum)
Laserlight
Hi Jan,

QUOTE
We try to view the vacuum as a scaffolding for properties in the form of fields. But does that imply that the scaffolding is 'physical' or merely a metaphor


I'd have a hard time "standing" on a metaphor while trying to build something
tangible. biggrin.gif

I'm not sure that we can state that space "stores" charge. Perhaps a better
description would be that space induces charges (or is displaced by energy fields)
between charged masses. Personally, I prefer the idea of fields displacing
or changing the characteristics of space.

Can we assign space the characteristics of a kind of tensor?

As you know, fields are an extension of a force that project beyond the physical
boundaries of matter. In that respect, they are coupling the polarized, radiated
potential energy of matter to space which creates a charge gradient imbalance
in a given volume of space that varies inversely with distance.

You make a good point about matter just being a knot or extreme curvature of
space. I agree that to some degree matter and space are "intertwined", but the
differences are extreme, and energy concentration/distribution per unit area and
topological geometry (structure) are the key elements.

I want to reiterate, the curvature of space is a consequence of energy coupling
between matter and space and represents a gradient of energy
density/displacement in proximity to matter.

Comments,
LL
Good Elf
Hi Confused2,

QUOTE (Confused2+)
Hi Goos Elf et al,
QUOTE (Good Elf+)
It seems to me that a vacuum definitely has properties that are responsible for "charge" since electromagnetic waves exhibit instantaneous charges in antennas even though photon "particles" carry no charge individually. What properties do you suggest that photon particles carry if they are not responsible for the electric fields that are being carried by the waves??
Hmm... might it be the case that EM waves cause a separation of charge rather then an absolute dollop of it? If we take a photon of (say) 30Mhz radiation ( E = 2E-26J ) .. wavelength about 10 meters .. can you say what you think is happening when a photon is 'detected'?
Best wishes -C2.
After-thought - Do you get an interference pattern using slits cut in black card?
Umm... thats "Good" Elf... he he he! What I am thinking about is photons in free flight. In empty space there are no charges but there is the electric and magnetic field of the EM wave passing bye. I am not trying to emphasize a physical approach but consider the change in energy density of the empty space suddenly being altered by the passage of the photon (which is without primary charge). Something is being stressed and relaxed on it's passing. We call this the electric field. It is not composed of charge since there are no particles in free space to supply those charges. Of course you could say there are virtual particles there but then you would need an 'excess" of one type or other and the numbers and quantities are far beyond the tiny statistical quantum fluctuations expected by the application of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Relationship.

It seems likely that these fields which usually signal charge arise from the stresses in the underlying 'continuum" the photons are passing through. These "stressors" give rise to the electric and magnetic fields as indicated by field free electromagnetic field equations. I do not believe in dielectric currents either... Still I am willing to listen to those who have thought about it. Overall these phenomena we identify with charge should be identified with fields since there is no specific substance that produces charge known. We see these fields and call then sources of charges when they appear static or stationary. IMHO this is a dynamic phenomenon where the wave 'crests" of one polarity are all "aligned" on the outer surface of this membrane. In the case of EM waves ... the surface of our spacetime, whatever that is... and in the case of "charged" particles.. "aligned" on the outside surface of the compact additional dimensional spaces of fermion spacetimes.

When a wave is detected it appears that the electric field "loops" which are contours on the surface of this 'spacetime" expend their energy by the loops shrinking in the transverse direction at hyper-luminal velocity to shrink down to 'points" or to particle size... there are papers that support this thesis. This is the 'collapse". This is like shadows on the pavement cast by a distant street light. These electric and magnetic field loops "ground" on conductors in a reverse of the transmission process by breaking and then shortening according to the remaining energy stored in them till they have disappeared into the 'absorber". Almost like running the movie you see here backwards only in this case the fields are virtually presenting a wavefront that is almost perpendicular to the propagation direction. The fields will "snap" virtually instantly into the sinks.
User posted image
Your comments welcome.... and others too.

QUOTE (Confused2+)
After-thought - Do you get an interference pattern using slits cut in black card?
Did not even try, too hard to cut accurate slits. The 'slits" in the metal coating on the mirror make an excellent medium for cutting. The steel blade is 'soft" relative to the "harder" glass so very good slits can be made. The reflection off the mirror surface in the 'cavity" increases the strength of the pattern many orders of magnitude if aligned perpendicular to the beam. It is like tuning a radio as you rotate the slit plane through a small arc. I get the distinct impression that the reflections are being tuned.to a maximum. Of course that is just an impression. I will post my results when I get some batteries for my camera.

Cheers
Laserlight
Hi GE and All,

Good post! I particularly liked your commentary on energy density change of
space and field stressors thru vacuum. The concept of dielectric currents is sort of
baffling, but perhaps "currents" is the wrong term or I am misunderstanding your
meaning.

If spacetime is displaced or altered by energy fields passing thru a fixed "volume" of
vacuum, that almost assigns energetic characteristics to something about
vacuum that responds like a switch...it is "conductive" and then "non-conductive"
(on-off) with the passing of energy, or has the properties of impedance and
inductance that present characteristic inductive reactance and capacitive reactance
to moving energy fields.
We know that vacuum has the characteristics of permittivity, permeability
and impedance. Can we exclude the possibility that it might have others as well?

This might help explain why photon EM fields have an orthogonal relationship as
they propagate thru a vacuum. A voltage build up in one plane induces a current
build up in its complementary/reciprocal orthogonal plane which displaces the
capacitive and inductive reactance components of vacuum. I kind of visualize
a dynamic process where the impedance of displaced space is "impeding"
and containing the building field of energy, and once the field is at its
peak the displaced vacuum reacts and compresses the field releasing all the
displaced energy back into the collapsing wave which helps to propagate
the field and reverses the field polarity. In this way the EM fields are self
sustaining because they are transferring energy back and forth with the
"displaced" energetic qualities of space/vacuum.

Just thinking out loud and something else to consider as an information point that
might prove useful in explaining how photons can propagate thru vacuum/space.
I know that this is off topic but if it provides possible clues to the relationship
between photons, space, and how they interact it might stimulate some different
approach or line of reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

Comments, discussion? Anyone?
LL
Confused2
Hi Jan et al,
Brainstorming.
Whatever the cause (or method) - the result seems to be (effectively) a loss free point-to-point communication across time and space.
Let us propose an amount of energy leaves P0 (x0,y0,z0,t0) and arrives at P1 (x1,y1,z1,t1). It is almost as though P0 and P1 are on top of each other.
In Minkowski space..
r^2 = x^2 +y^2 + z^2 -c^2 t^2
if we set t^2 = (x^2 +y^2 + z^2)/c^2
we get r=0
Just a thought.
Best wishes -C2.
Confused2
Hi Good Elf, TRoc, Jan, LL, Montec, yq et al,

Sorry about the 'Goos' typo.

For convenience can we think of a centre-fed half wave dipole..

One of the classic radio 'tricks' is to put a flourescent tube near the tip of a transmitter aerial - it lights up - showing there is an intense electric field - one can also show that there are high currents at the centre of the dipole. In general the EM trick is so brilliant and consistent that it is very hard to dismiss it as an illusion. It might (or might not) be helpful to remember that our absolute velocity through space is both unknown and may not have any physical meaning. When we speak of 'stressed space' this implies a local Aether type space - which doesn't seem to be the sort of space we're looking at here.We can calculate the 'stress' but I'm not sure this is really anything more than Feynman's "Shut up and calculate" in a different package.

QUOTE (Good Elf+)
[.. of wave detection..].. These electric and magnetic field loops "ground" on conductors in a reverse of the transmission process by breaking and then shortening according to the remaining energy stored in them till they have disappeared into the 'absorber". Almost like running the movie you see here backwards only in this case the fields are virtually presenting a wavefront that is almost perpendicular to the propagation direction. The fields will "snap" virtually instantly into the sinks.

The receiver is (geometrically) in the wrong place to scoop up (snap up) the transmitted field .. I think it has to be done from the transmitter end... hence my poof and foop interpretation of Feynman-Wheeler.
QUOTE (TRoc+)
Does anybody think that they could produce a low enough power radio wave that, after just one radio received the signal, that the wave "collapsed"?

I see no alternative. If a single photon of energy E=hf is emitted and someone receives it then, like it or not, conservation of energy suggests that there cannot be anything left for anyone else to receive. Can anyone suggest an alternative?
Perhaps contraversial enough for one post.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Confused2
Hi Good Elf (Again!)

On thinking about it .. using slits scratched onto the silvered face of a mirror really does introduce a 'cavity' - formed by reflections between faces of the glass - could this be the effect you are seeing?

Best wishes - C2.
Confused2
This is going to be a really bad post .. a publish and be damned type post. Hopefully it might inspire someone to add some sense to it.

The high voltage at the ends of the dipole which causes a fluorescent light to (er) light .. this has the look of a classic impact .. momentum transfer and so on. Mildly interesting to note that the energy of a 30MHz photon is many orders of magnitude too low to excite an electron to a photon emitting level.. a similar process to heating perhaps?

Placed close to the middle of the aerial a conductor is going to get hot. A conducting ring around the aerial will get very hot (assuming you don't blow your driver stage) .. a kind of swirly zone .. like spin? It kind of suggests that a loop made out of a conductor has a 'spin' status beyond that of each individual electron. It looks (to me) like an individual photon can couple to the spin of the entire loop .. classically we might call this 'inducing a current' in the loop - it might be an inevitable consequence of this that the current in the loop is 'quantized'.

Sorry about the flood. I will do my best to resist posting for a bit.

Best wishes- C2.
Good Elf
Hi janrinze, "THEY", Laserlight, Confused2, yquantum, Jal, TRoc, Montec, Pink Elephant, Neil Farbstein, et al,

janrinze, I need a little time to bring some things together and address these issues. The same with Laserlight and Confused2. This thread is growing very fast and it is hard to lead a life and keep up. What I would say is that any theory that deals with a true dimensional theory that relates real space and time with additional dimensions must dovetail exactly with our known laws of physics. In that respect I really do not need to address the maths since this is handled by current theory which works well enough. If electromagnetic forces are all there is... then mass is a residual phenomenon of symmetric electromagnetic fields (electromagnetic fields are always anti-symmetric). The principle of superposition for instance of three spherical harmonic resonances on the surface of a sphere identical in every way but shifted in phase spatially and temporally can globally "almost " sum to zero. It can't sum to absolute zero since the sum will always be similar to those "Van Der Walls forces" Laserlight spoke about which have a long range effect called "London Dispersion Forces".
Wikipedia: Van der Waals force
Clearly though (... and I hope this is clear to most) this is an electromagnetic force related to the quantization of the states on the surface of the anti-deSitter Spherical Space. This quantization is a function of the surface geometry of the available spaces. To observe these curved spaces ... relative acceleration is required. When an inertial frame can be achieved in the space it appears "flat" to the observer. This is why the Universe appears very flat except on the enormous scale and "particles" appear as "hard" due to curvature and spin. The relationship is CPT-Lorentz Symmetry and the tendency of those waves to propagate on the curved or uncurved surface of a spacetime. It really depends on your point of view as an internal or external observer in an inertial frame of reference or an accelerated frame of reference.

The AdS-CFT theory (turned inside out) is the perfect candidate for a kind of "string theory".

QUOTE (Confused2+)
The receiver is (geometrically) in the wrong place to scoop up (snap up) the transmitted field .. I think it has to be done from the transmitter end... hence my poof and foop interpretation of Feynman-Wheeler.
Dead right, I take your point seriously. It is hard to put things in a context that is instantly understandable to everyone in this forum. Janrinze has not been following the source sink arguments so this probably does not make much sense. A source and a sink can map into the same object in the near field while maintaining the phase relationship of a source and sink in the far field. The idea of "travel" for light may not actually make very much sense in that context, what matters then are the waves.

I will get back to this all soon.

Cheers
"THEY"
Hi all!

Just thought I would share with you the pictures that we used in "they"2's classroom experiment this morning.

This first one, if I remember right, is two slits in foil. It is close to the Nasa DSE photos, but many reflections due to being foil and not black card. Also, the camera picks up far more reflections than what the eye can see... When it is on my wall it looks much closer to the pic that Good Elf posted a while back!

User posted image



This one I couldn't get the camera to not shake, so it is blurry. Was probably getting too close to bedtime and too dark for non flash photography, but oh well. It is a "plus" in black card. (starting to be creative here)

User posted image
"THEY"
And my piece de resistance (said with a fake French accent)(and a drumroll)

My favorite, the smiley face!
(looks like this smile.gif literally, but about 2mm big)

User posted image

Silly me! Trust me to go and ruin a science experiment for a cool pic! rolleyes.gif
Confused2
Hi THEY(2),

Nice pics. I think it will be interesting to see what Elf Labs. comes up with so we can compare like with like.

Best wishes,
-C2.
Neil Farbstein
QUOTE ("THEY"+May 29 2007, 08:14 PM)
And my piece de resistance (said with a fake French accent)(and a drumroll)

My favorite, the smiley face!
(looks like this smile.gif literally, but about 2mm big)

User posted image

Silly me! Trust me to go and ruin a science experiment for a cool pic! rolleyes.gif

what do you call your piece de reistance.
"THEY"
Hi Neil,

Instead of being just two pinholes in the foil, I also carved in a smiley mouth to make a smiley face in the foil. Made for a pretty picture! I will do anything to get a good picture.......... laugh.gif

Hi C2,

Yes, I can't wait to see Elf Labs results too. I will still try to get a better picture too using black card so there isn't quite so much reflection (and slits or pinholes only wink.gif ). The pictures we took last week (posted above) mostly were done with foil so the kids could see better. Same with doing the DSE in the classroom, we used foil to make it brighter. Except I think the kids were more interested in the fact that I had a LASER than what "they"2 could do with it...... But they did enjoy seeing the spot with waves on the wall. So now we will go back to the drawing board with black card to make you guys happy. wink.gif

And for fun I may keep playing around with different slits. A while back yquantum posted asking if anyone had done slits going both ways. I will see what fun stuff I can come up with. Since I don't know what the heck I am doing physics wise, I might as well have fun photography wise! Maybe in the mean time "they"2 and I will learn some science too. tongue.gif
Good Elf
Hi janrinze, "THEY", Laserlight, Confused2, yquantum, Jal, TRoc, Montec, Pink Elephant, Neil Farbstein, et al,

Likewise this is a very long post… I am always sorry for that but it is impossible to transfer my impressions using very short posts. It is also only the first of several points in your series of questions.
QUOTE (janrinze+)
P.S. I like this mental chess game a lot!
I like to think of this as scientific discussion. This differs from philosophy by being able to call upon the results of experiment. This is similar to calling on the Universe itself to enter into the discussion by playing 20 questions with it. An experiment is a “question" posed to the Universe. What mankind is doing is asking very specific questions about it's nature. The more specific these questions become, the greater the amount of insight we are gaining from them. In the past we asked similar questions but we were not as specific as we are now. This means we are learning "something". Godel had a different idea about all this, it would seem that the concept of testing human ideas against the Universe's reaction to them was not the philosophers way. Thus all theories were of equal value or lack of value, our free choice to evaluate. We are able to see this with the bulk of human wisdom such as politics and religion where it is simply a matter of personal choice. This does not make these ideas less worthy in man's eyes since men are willing to die for them. These ideas could be decided on by a show of hands. This is not the case with the Law of Gravity for instance where a show of hands cannot repeal that Law. Godel thought that man could never know any absolute truth and I agree with that. What I disagree with is man can know a relative truth and be confident that this partial truth is better than other partial truths by subjecting the two or more ideas to testing. Given two interpretations of what is true, a well designed experiment allows us to choose the answer that more closely reflects the results of the experiment. Superficially, to less sophisticated individuals, there appears to be little or nothing between the two interpretations… But to those who understand the deeper implications of these interpretations a choice between the two alternatives is as clear as the difference between black and white. Still... man is not able to know any absolute truth but he is able to approach a more unambiguous interpretation using his selective discernment.

A "for instance" was the most technological nation on Earth during World war II was arguably Germany. It appeared to possess the capacity and the technical knowledge to build the Atomic Bomb. If Germany had succeeded the war 'probably" would have been lost. The greatest scientific minds in Quantum Physics lived in Germany... surely they would develop this weapon first? They did not. There were many reasons for this... Some say it was Hitler's branding the development of the Atomic Bomb as "Jewish Physics", others say that some scientists in Germany could not bring themselves to develop a weapon for such an evil World Power… Umm maybe!. Whatever the specific reason was, it was not that Germany did not wish to understand this "great truth". In reality a very strange phenomenon occurred which ironically saved us all, Germany became preoccupied with the occult and this occurred at the highest levels of that administration. They were asking questions about the Universe but they became entrapped in human dogma, ideology and philosophy. When asked which theory did he think was the correct metaphysical theory of cosmology the Hollow Earth Theory (that we all live on the inside surface of a hollow sphere) or the Theory of the Eternal Ice (the distant stars were all made of ice), Hitler said "why not both theories be true at the same time". As a result, the Reich's Scientists were induced to believe they could use their infra red beams as a kind of radar to see across the English Channel by pointing the receivers almost straight up in the sky in the direction where they though England was on the inside of the hollow Earth, an "official theory" Hitler espoused. In such a climate of ambiguity and anti-science where human ego overruled the Physics of the Universe, there was little chance that the German Scientists would make further great advances in the pressure cooker conditions of the war. Accompanying all this was an abuse of human rights and a dictatorship that eventually led to Germany not winning the war.

Since World War II many in the west have adopted these ideas and others such as Creationism and Intelligent Design. They are a counter to Science and this has hampered development of our understanding of the Universe. Even worse, as a result of espousing the concept of some aspects of Quantum Theory which suggests that underlying everything is nothing but chaos, we are in the era of Post Modernist Nihilism… we have lost our “Philosophical Way”. Now some theories are similar to the “Hollow Earth Theory” and the holographic Universe concept of David Bohm may seem to be tinged with an obscure “theology”. It is very difficult to tread a path through this minefield of human ideas without scientific experimental results. This is why you will usually find my contributions strewn with references so that we all do not forget what it is and what principles we hold as constant.

QUOTE (janrinze+)
An electro-magnetic wave IMHO. should not be associated with a particle but it is sufficient to say that the electric and magnetic field is an inherent property of space. Fields in my perspective are 'local' properties of space and Maxwell's equations show how electric and magnetic fields interact. We don't need particles for that.. The trouble started with defining a quantum for a package of energy which could be seen by the photo-electric effect. I agree that the current view is that there must be a photon. Not sure how to combine those yet.. But that is the whole theme here, right?
As for EM waves and antenna's they are not related to quantum mechanical effects per se. In radio terms, the waves just make the free electrons move and the proper resonant electronic circuit will amplify the resonant frequency. The energy in a photon is not used when calculating absorbed energy from an EM wave by means of an antenna. So could you show a paper or calculation where the quanta are needed to have 'radio-reception'? The only place where they are necessary is with making electrons change their orbital (state) to a higher energy level.
Hmm... If the entire Universe was elevated relative to a zero reference level regarding the electric field, would we know it? The presence of an electric field is only understood relative to some base value and it is the difference between an arbitrary value of this field and a local zero level that results in electromotive force which can then do work. Do fields represent only local properties of space? Are EM waves lacking in quantum mechanical properties and quantum mechanical properties are only exhibited by atomic and sub-nuclear transitions?

We can distinguish two types of field... propagating and inductive fields. The propagating field carries energy away from sources towards sinks as "packets" where the energy can do work (such as pushing electrons around). The inductive field returns the energy to the source which still can push electrons around but it can result in very strong forces such as the ones you feel in permanent magnets and those fields that make your hair stand on end with Van Der Graff Generators.. The former is a static magnetic field and the latter is a static electric field. These fields have a frequency exceedingly close to zero. For a given size of a radiator, if I increase this frequency of the electric and/or the magnetic field slowly from zero to a very high frequency we find that for a very long time the photons are virtually totally reabsorbed and are not radiated away. The fields are trapped regeneratively in a relatively small region around the source, for large radiators energy can be dissipated in resistance but for sub-atomic radiators the energy can only be absorbed "whole or nothing". At some finite frequency we observe that some radiation will escape into the far field... At first only a very small amount. This is not exactly the photoelectric effect since photon absorption is required for electron emission which is the reverse of the emission process.

As you have noted a particular energy of a photon is required to emit a single electron from an atom and the rest of the energy the photon may have had is converted into potential or kinetic energy. A very specific frequency is required to trigger this first emission. Shorter wavelength photons will also work since they have more energy than what is minimally required. To be an efficient radiator is the reverse process and it requires that the frequency and thus the wavelength of the source must be a significant proportion of the "size" of the radiating body. The energy of the radiator escaping into the far field is dependent on the spreading of the field which appears to travel at the speed of light to become sufficiently advanced in it’s phase such that when the field begins to change direction it does not "suck the energy back into the source" but nip off a loop of energy which then continues to propagate outwards. Therefore there is both a forward and a backwards component to this radiation, the forward component is the retarded potential in the near field.

Radio Antenna's of a large size create photons that are of a similar dimension. The critical dimension is a half wavelength. Believe it or not there are individual photons created by some low frequency military sources that are a couple of kilometers in size. These are quanta identical to the quanta emitted from within the orbits of atoms, only the size and scale of them is our size and our scale. A quick calculation will show that regardless of their enormous physical size they are far more feeble than "ordinary" optical photons, they make up for this individual feebleness by their numerous quantities. Radio frequency photons are simply another part of the EM Spectrum whose frequency ranges from a zero in frequency to an almost infinite frequency. There is a difference though between these man-made megascopic low energy quanta and the sub-micron higher energy “optical relatives” The difference is we can create these physically large quanta “to order” with physical wires and conductors and other "plumbing" and these sources can be "driven" continuously unlike atomically produced quanta which are "one shot wonders" that have exactingly similar characteristics to each other by being built from the same ‘Meccano Sets” of basic particles.

In effect we “trim” these larger quanta producers to order by our engineering efforts and they represent the extreme of Cavity QED (strong coupling).
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~qoptics/Presen...ns/CQED-web.pdf
We are unable to dynamically vary the ‘size” of sub-atomic particles so the quanta from them are more or less ‘dictated’ by their physical dimensions as single particles and by their collective hybridized bosonic shells. The other factors about an artificial antenna are they can be made to emit large numbers of photons simultaneously and they are purpose built to be efficient radiators. The reason we can do this is the man made radiator elements have access to “continuous energy sources” whereas sub-nuclear component radiators have quantized amounts of energy to utilize to ‘power” those tiny radiators. Since they can only accept one quantum of energy at a time and emit one quantum of energy at a time, this level of the Universe suffers a “stop and go” blocking energy supply dictated by spatial and temporal truncation. This is the only reason why there are differences between large and small scale events. So all quanta are the result of “impulses” in the time domain which translate into “waves” in the frequency domain through the Fourier Transform. We can virtually “dial up” electric energy to supply our dipole radiators through the courtesy of Nicola Tesla and his excellent patents. The sub-atomic Universe has no such sources of continuous power and must make do with these truncated sine wave functions (ideally sync functions). This “quantization” is no mystery to me but the way it is taught in Schools and University is patently not telling the whole story as it should be. This is the true reason why there is no ultraviolet divergence and why there are a finite number of different quanta in the spectra of the light from stars.

In every other respect photons are identical in the way they behave and the way they are affected by the laws of physics such as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle which treats all photons identically other than for their specific energies. It is just that as we proceed to the smaller volumes of space we are very limited in the way nature throws up "building blocks" for our circuits and antennas. The basis of the Universe is truly a continuum but because Nature limits the number and types of particles to only a relatively few types through CPT-Lorentz Symmetry, quanta have only limited options. You certainly do not need to be Einstein to understand all this and the "maths" can all be done by your computers. The really hard bit is to get people thinking beyond quantum physics and about the concepts of photon resonance in higher dimensions.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=214129

Beyond that physical limit "construction" is possible but we are entering the realm of the Kondo Phantoms. I will continue this again soon. Everything here can be "Googled"!

Cheers
jal
Hi Good Elf janrinze, "THEY", Laserlight, Confused2, yquantum, TRoc, Montec, Pink Elephant, Neil Farbstein, et al,

Now, this last post I can identify with. (except for your last two sentences. smile.gif
My approach to get an understanding is to consider particles and waves as tools to find how everything is put together.

QUOTE
We are unable to dynamically vary the ‘size” of sub-atomic particles so the quanta from them are more or less ‘dictated’ by their physical dimensions as single particles and by their collective hybridized bosonic shells.
... sub-nuclear component radiators have quantized amounts of energy to utilize to ‘power” those tiny radiators.
Since they can only accept one quantum of energy at a time and emit one quantum of energy at a time, this level of the Universe suffers a “stop and go” blocking energy supply dictated by spatial and temporal truncation.
The basis of the Universe is truly a continuum but because Nature limits the number and types of particles to only a relatively few types through CPT-Lorentz Symmetry, quanta have only limited options.

The search for Experimental evidence for minimum length
femto, (f), 10^-15, femtometer, (1015 fm = 1 m), radius of a proton ~ 1 fm

I could not get this paper ($) which could have helped to support what you say.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1999APS..TSF.H5206S
The Structure of Atoms, Atomic Matter and Space, in the Sub-femtometer - Sub-femtosecond Scale
Simhony, Menahem
---------
If we know the minimum length and the structure then we can have a better understanding of what the tool (waves, particles ) are telling us.
jal



Laserlight
Hi GE and All,

Great post! You have condensed a lot of our prior conversations from last
year into a well written discussion. Kudo's!

As I was reading, it stimulated/inspired a wonderful thought...a light bulb went
on and regenerated a prior conceptual proposal/argument that I had made quite
some time ago about the nature of a propagating EM wave. That recollection
contradicts some points of your discussion, while at the same time it
conceptually supports some of it.

I would like you to consider an alternative to the following statement. I will
explain/detail why.

QUOTE
Radio Antenna's of a large size create photons that are of a similar dimension. The critical dimension is a half wavelength. Believe it or not there are individual photons created by some low frequency military sources that are a couple of kilometers in size.


First a question. If a photon is a quantum impulse of energy that is referenced at
the atomic level by the dislocation of an electron between energy shells, is a
wave of energy that is larger than that basic quantum level only a single photon?


In other words, how many photons does it take to make a wave of some given
wavelength?


Here is a description/conceptualization of what happens in an antenna that creates
a wave.

A long wave, radiated from an antenna, is the result of the polarity alignment of
billions of electrons in the mast of the antenna that have been nearly
synchronously stimulated by the application of regularly oscillating voltages and currents that
have been applied to the antenna. As the current (electrons) is applied to the
feed end (or in the center of the antenna) the electric current races from the point
of insertion toward the end(s) of the antenna that represent signal ground.
Signal ground follows the polarity of the voltage applied and the current will
follow the direction of the applied voltage, so the current direction and fields will
follow the voltage.

The atoms of the antenna are stimulated with the excess electrons being applied
and align their polarities to the EM fields being induced by the passage
of the electrical and magnetic fields generated by the flowing electron current.
This occurs at the speed of the electron current flow and at the frequency that is
being applied which creates an avalanche "cascade" of polarized field alignments
of the stimulated atoms within the antenna. So in effect, each atom is
stimulated to release a photon that is timed and polarized to the increasing wave
energy that is building within the antenna structure, which is an additive function
over some time interval.

Since the polarities of the atoms are stimulated to be aligned along the same polar
referernce frame they collectively generate a large EM field that radiates beyond
the confines of the antenna. The voltage polarity of the atoms cycles according to
the driving frequency oscillations of the reversing current flows. They align in one
direction and then reverse and align in the opposite direction following the
applied oscillating voltage polarity of the driving sinewave signal.

Due to the delay time that it takes for the electric current to travel thru the
material structure of the antenna, there is a "latency" delay as the wave energy
builds intensity (amplitude) during the stimulated avalanche polarity cascade.
The peak of the generated EM wave corresponds to the peak electron flow thru the
material/structure of the antenna which follows the polarity of the voltage applied.

So a long wavelength energy wave should be a composite of billions of individual
photons (wavelets) that are slightly out of phase alignment and timing to match
the rising and falling amplitude of the wave oscillations.
These photons couple
their collective EM energy to free space in the form of a wave that radiates
away from the antenna in the form of oscillations

In some respects this concept mimics how a laser works by stimulated emission,
except a laser typically uses photons to stimulate atoms to generate the
cascade, as opposed to electrons. A laser could be considered a type of
coherent antenna that operates at optical wavelengths.

There is more, but I will leave it here for now because this will likely generate
questions, disagreements, and further discussion.

Comments, discussion welcomed.
LL
janrinze
QUOTE (Laserlight+May 30 2007, 06:27 PM)

First a question.  If a photon is a quantum impulse of energy that is referenced at
the atomic level by the dislocation of an electron between energy shells, is a
wave of energy that is larger than that basic quantum level only a single photon?



EM waves and photons are one and the same is the postulate if I understand what GE said. So photons can be generated from any EM source. Not just the jumps of electrons in their orbital. Any accelerating charge should emit radiation. next to that there is the Cerenkov radiation.

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 30 2007, 06:27 PM)

In other words, how many photons does it take to make a wave of some given
wavelength?



I guess the answer here should be one. We could debate this however but is one atom emits a photon (only once) that should suffice to form a wave of a specific wavelength.
QUOTE (Laserlight+May 30 2007, 06:27 PM)

Here is a description/conceptualization of what happens in an antenna that creates
a wave.

A long wave, radiated from an antenna, is the result of the polarity alignment of
billions of electrons in the mast of the antenna that have been nearly
synchronously stimulated by the application of regularly oscillating currents that
have been applied to the antenna.  As the current (electrons) is applied to the
feed end (or in the center of the antenna) the electric current races from the point
of insertion toward the end(s) of the antenna that represent signal ground.  The
atoms of the antenna are stimulated with the excess electrons being applied
and align their polarities to the EM fields being induced by the passage
of the electrical and magnetic fields generated by the flowing electron current.
This occurs at the speed of the electron current flow and at the frequency that is
being applied which creates an avalanche "cascade" of polarized field alignments
of the stimulated atoms within the antenna.  So in effect, each atom is
stimulated to release a photon that is timed and polarized to the increasing wave
energy that is building within the antenna structure, which is an additive function
over some time interval.

The alignment of atoms to a magnetic field requires enormous field strengths, I doubt their contribution to the entire EM field is above negligible.

I think I will stop my comments here..

Consider that the energies of the photons that correlate with the EM waves are very small. The changes in the potential at a point in the antenna will accelerate the electrons. The power dissipated in this process is equal to the energy in the waves plus the energy related to the rise of temperature of the antenna and its environment. No real 'mystical' addition of the atoms here.

The reverse is also the same, electrons traverse over an antenna with the EM waves so the potential at a point of the antenna will oscillate with the wave.

Maybe I am missing the point here but this is all very 'simple'.

Jan Rinze.
Laserlight
Hi Jan,

Yep, I think that you missed the point. Perhaps I was too subtle but I left the
topic wide open for further development for a few reasons. To us it is simple
but to those without any electronics or physics background they may not
know or understand the mechanisms involved.

I am questioning whether the size of a wave, beyond the atomic scale photon
frequencies, is really a single photon.....a single quantum event. I need
to be convinced that this is true, because to be honest, I am not sure if it is.


A transmitted wave from a radiating multi-atomic antenna source is composed of
individual wavelets (individual photons) that travel as part of the nearly
synchronous wave front at the EM modulation frequency of the radiating
wavefront. As the EM wavefront energy dissipates over distance,
individual wavelets (photons) will still maintain their specific inherent quantum
energy package but will cycle according to the frequency at which they were
modulated and radiated from the source antenna.

Field strength is directly proportional to the number of stimulated atoms
synchronized to the applied field. The more atoms per unit surface area, the
higher the field strength that will be generated for a fixed amount of applied
energy, up to the point of diminishing returns or transmission efficiency curve
"fall off".

As you know, a single atom can only release a maximum quantum of energy per
interval regardless of the amount of external energy applied. It requires numerous
atoms in relative synchrony to efficiently dissipate/radiate high energy levels to
space or their adjacent environment.

If this is correct, then a wavefront beyond the energy level of a single quantum
event does not represent a single photon but is a cascade of coherent photons
all travelling and adding their discrete quantum EM energies together to form
and sustain the overall wave energy. Thus, the wave energy dissipates over
distance from the source, but the individual photons maintain their individual
quantum energy levels while still observing the original EM wave modulation
timing/frequency.

At some distance, far from the transmission source, the amplitude of the wave's
EM energy is decreased because the individual photons and fields have dispersed
to the point where the modulated EM energy they are mutually transporting falls
into the atomic background noise of a receiving antenna. The voltages and
currents of the radiating fields are so weakly dispersed that only individual
quantum EM currents are induced into the atoms of the receiving antenna, which is
not strong enough to form coherent fields and currents to synchronously resonate
with the atoms within the antenna.

If what I am proposing/questioning is wrong, please feel free to comment or
correct. I am open to other interpretations or arguments.

LL
janrinze
Hi LL,

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 30 2007, 08:41 PM)
Hi Jan,

Yep, I think that you missed the point.  Perhaps I was too subtle but I left the
topic wide open for further development for a few reasons.  To us it is simple
but to those without any electronics or physics background they may not
know or understand the mechanisms involved.

I am questioning whether the size of a wave, beyond the atomic scale photon
frequencies, is really a single photon.....a single quantum event.  I need
to be convinced that this is true, because to be honest, I am not sure if it is.


Neither am I. There is however the possibility that in the frequency domain the signal can be seen as an aggregate of different photons. Like in the case of a short radio burst of 2 long radio waves.. Perhaps the entire quantum is a misinterpretation and there is something entirely different going on.
The work function shows that for the domain of frequencies that lie within the energy range above the work function there will be one electron emitted from an atom. The effect itself may give the impression that there is a threshold which gives rise to the idea of a quantum of light. There might be another option here. Something in the form of resonance induced absorption of EM waves which effectively acts like E=hv - W. Not sure how to make this work but there are some idea's lurking in the back of my mind.. something like a pumped oscillator?

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 30 2007, 08:41 PM)

<..>
If this is correct, then a wavefront beyond the energy level of a single quantum
event does not represent a single photon but is a cascade of coherent photons
all traveling and adding their discrete quantum EM energies together to form
and sustain the overall wave energy.  Thus, the wave energy dissipates over
distance from the source, but the individual photons maintain their individual
quantum energy levels while still observing the original EM wave modulation
timing/frequency. 

This is probably the classical photon interpretation i.m.h.o.
It does not really explain why the photons are packets of energy and remain like that. Unless the packet itself is some sort of self coherence like the way successive photons cohere. Which could make the waveform a lot more complex in the 3d world..(like a standing wave lateral in the wavefront?)

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 30 2007, 08:41 PM)

At some distance, far from the transmission source, the amplitude of the wave's
EM energy is decreased because the individual photons and fields have dispersed
to the point where the modulated EM energy they are mutually transporting falls
into the atomic background noise of a receiving antenna.  The voltages and
currents of the radiating fields are so weakly dispersed that only individual
quantum EM currents are induced into the atoms of the receiving antenna, which is
not strong enough to form coherent fields and currents to synchronously resonate
with the atoms within the antenna.

in short, only if a sufficient amount of photons is present in the wave (radiation density or EM power, what ever you may prefer) a 'signal' or wave can be detected by means of an antenna.


I think this shows that also for EM waves we have the 'classical' domain and the QM domain depending on the wavelength.. This probably correlates perfectly with the segmentations of domains like relativistic,QM and classical Newtonian.. The difference here is the wavelength being the criterion for classification..

That is as far as I can go on this for now..

Lots of overlapping ideas but definitely showing that when we want to reach a level of conceptual understanding for all domains, we need a shift in our paradigms.

Jan Rinze.
Zephir
QUOTE (janrinze+May 31 2007, 01:59 AM)
we need a shift in our paradigms

Or even reciprocal perspective. Many things can be understood better, if we consider the light bending around massive objects like the consequence of variant speed of light, or the Universe interior like the exterior of black holes, and so on. It's possible, for the very general view the difference between inner and outer perspective will become so different, it could be possible to unify it on the reciprocity principle basis.
Laserlight
Hi Zephir,

Yep, exactly!....It is the Yin-Yang paradox of opposites. For every action there
is an equal and opposite reaction. Thank you Newton!

This is my basis/theory for the source of gravity, which is the reciprocal of
energy displacement of space. If energy is coupling to space and radiating
outward from a source of origin, it is displacing space as it advances forward,
which requires an equal reaction in the opposite direction...which IMO is gravity.

It really seems so elegantly simple.

Comments,
LL
Laserlight
Jan,

Good input! I am looking for conceptual elegance and simplicity. Everything
complex is merely a lot of simple principles/laws that when combined together
form relationships that appear (and are) complicated, but when broken down to their basic pixel elements can be easily managed and manipulated.

Every complex picture is nothing more than an organized myriad of small details.
The devil is in the details! LOL!

I'm looking forward to some of the ideas/concepts that you, GE, and TRoc
are "developing" that push the frontier and linking of scientific principles.

I really appreciate the different perspectives being offered and discussed, but
would like to "hear" from others that lurk and monitor the board.


Comments?
LL
Good Elf
Hi janrinze, "THEY", Laserlight, Jal, Confused2, Zephir, yquantum, TRoc, Montec, Pink Elephant, Neil Farbstein, et al,

I will prompt people about the "old wisdom" regarding transmitters. The importance of "Cooper Pairs" and to Space Quantization in "solids" by fermions such as metal antenna's with conduction band electrons, is not to be underestimated. When "semi-free" electrons are in conductors they are not behaving like electrons in single "insulating" atom shells. A half-wave antenna or resonant cavity (much the same in my theory, since it affects the neighboring space) does not involve tiny individual electrons jumping in and our of conduction "shells". The "wave" is formed by a quantum state of all these electrons spontaneously forming a partial boson state by pairs of 1/2 spin particles additively forming a collective boson of "roughly" integer spin. The equivalent in the semi-static sense to a Bose-Einstein Condensate at high temperature and to an electromagnetic wave in the far field propagating at the speed of light in the dynamic sense. Think of a Conga Chain of electrons in the "wire"... the electric field "prods" the feed point by "sucking a few electrons into and out of a resonant tank circuit. Allowing for the delay due to the speed of propagation, this small individual harmonic movement over a millimeter or two may result in a transferral of this "stress disturbance" over even a kilometer in an Omega Transmitter. A "Mexican wave" of small electron movements becomes steadily increased to become a mighty energetic electromagnetic wave disturbance.

The actual centers of charge may only move a couple of millimeters from each other before a restoring force and the tuned tank circuit "pulls them back", the frictional resistance is very small and with superconductors could be made zero. All that is occurring is the center of charge of all the free electrons and the center of charge of the fixed nuclei are relatively displaced by a very small amount, the rest is the complex "phase". The wave's physical scale depends on the resonant element. That scale defines the wavelength of the wave in artificial radiators. Of course there are processes in the Universe that will be non-artificial that do exactly the same thing but mostly we are interested in artificial sources such as radio antennas.

The next point is the distinctions between "matter waves" and propagating electromagnetic waves. In the case of photons the electromagnetic wavelength and the de Broglie wavelength are one and the same. In the case of the semi stationary "particles" such as those electrons the wavelength of the particle "as seen from the electromagnetic flatspace" is a reciprocal relationship due to the curvature relativistic rotation in the particle's light cone surface by a factor of arcsin(V/C). Naturally photons always travel at C. The larger the relative velocity of the 'soliton", the reciprocal wavelength in the evanescent region shortens because it is a relative wavenumber and not a true wavelength. Illustrations follow... First the simplified 2D surface...
user posted image
the null geodesics are the 4-dimensional cone... a more realistic higher dimensional "surface"...
user posted image
These are "Relativistic lenses" that alter the spatial and even temporal geometry through Riemann-Cartan Parallel Transport of Vectors on the surface of the hypersphere's Spacetime.
... references are here...
Wikipedia : Special relativity
Of course this is a very 'simple" surface and any real surface needs to account for all atomic shells and their hybridizations. You have all seen my impressions of the ideal model impulse function and the way these arrange on wavefronts and sum to at least partially coherent progressive waves...
User posted image
That was the impulse relationship between the time domain and the reciprocal frequency domain... A 'crude" model for particle-wave duality but obviously only one at a time...
User posted image
... Click to enlarge...
You can have one to infinity number of photons in the one boson state and they naturally "cluster" together unlike particles that will repel each other unless they sum to integer spin states.
QUOTE (Zephir+)
Or even reciprocal perspective. Many things can be understood better, if we consider the light bending around massive objects like the consequence of variant speed of light, or the Universe interior like the exterior of black holes, and so on. It's possible, for the very general view the difference between inner and outer perspective will become so different, it could be possible to unify it on the reciprocity principle basis.
Is that Zephir agreeing with the "reciprocal paradigm"?... I am very impressed! I would think of this as not so much a variant speed of light but changing free space refractive index as noted by Dr. Taco Visser. We already know experimentally that it can take on both positive and negative values on the boundaries of "particle solitons" in the theory of Singular Optics.

Cheers
Laserlight
Hi GE,

I think I understand your prior post, but am not clear on what point(s) you
were trying to make. Of course you were correct about a circulating tank circuit
being necessary to provide signal resonance in the antenna.

Do you disagree with the concept of individual atomic dipoles, located on the skin
of an antenna, each radiating quantums of energy that combine to form a
composite (entangled) EM waveform? Of course, there must be resonance for the
individual radiated energies to synchronize and form the wave.

Please elaborate.

Thanks,
LL
Confused2
Hi janrinze, Good Elf, "THEY", Laserlight, Jal, Zephir,jal, yquantum,jal, TRoc,jal, Montec,jal, Pink Elephant (are you still with us?), Neil Farbstein, jal et al,
I'm going to make some assumptions ..
All EM radiation is quantized .. at lower frequencies the energy of each 'quanta' is so small that you need a lot of them to detect anything - 'intensity' continues to be psi^2 . Classical field theories 'work' because the number of photons involved is (typically) huge.
To communicate between two locations (A, B ) we need the psi of whatever we do at A to be greater than zero at B. To make a good aerial we need to choose the geometry of the structure(s) to optimise psi(A, B ). If we wanted to and we were smart enough we could probably use the classical equations to probe the properties of 'psi'.
To work out the radiation pattern of an aerial we need to know the geometry of the whole aerial - the same must be true for psi so we can immediately see (or not) that the 'psi generator' is not located at any particular point in (or on) the aerial .. the whole thing is the generator.
To be provocative I'm going to suggest that Im(psi) MIGHT have the properties of current which might leave Re(psi) with the property of 'voltage'. For some reason (to carry information?) we need to turn psi into a rotating vector. The geometry becomes important because (obviously) we want our receiver at a point of maximum psi and not somewhere where it cancels out entirely.
Brain hurts now.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Montec
Hello all

I think what Good Elf is saying is that the entire resonant structure is responsible for the photon emission. This structure maybe as small as an atom (or smaller) or as large as a ULF antenna (maybe bigger). The harmonic structure may even be virtually created. It is the harmonic structure that determines the frequency of emission, not the emission frequency that determines the structure.

Photon adsorption is the reverse of harmonic emission. A harmonic structure must be present (whether virtual or real) to adsorb/detect the photon.

smile.gif

janrinze
Hi Montec,
QUOTE (Montec+May 31 2007, 05:22 PM)
Hello all

I think what Good Elf is saying is that the entire resonant structure is responsible for the photon emission. This structure maybe as small as an atom (or smaller) or as large as a  ULF antenna (maybe bigger). The harmonic structure may even be virtually created. It is the harmonic structure that determines the frequency of emission, not the emission frequency that determines the structure.

Photon adsorption is the reverse of harmonic emission. A harmonic structure must be present (whether virtual or real) to adsorb/detect the photon.

smile.gif



this is very short and accurate i.m.h.o.
It fails however to address the quantum nature of EM waves. Do EM waves (like ULF) have photons and how does that play a role in the 'large' antennas.
If I read your statement carefully there are photons even in ULF.

Jan Rinze.
Montec
Hello janrinze, et al.

The energy of an EM wave is tied up in the electric and magnetic fields of said wave. To detect/absorb some of this energy requires a harmonic structure that is tuned to the photon frequency of the EM wave. Think of a AM radio's ferric antenna. The tunning circuit creates a virtual harmonic structure that allows the detection of the radio wave. The amount of energy that can be detected depends on the size of the ferric antenna. An external antenna increases the detection area used by the harmonic structure. The light gathering power of telescopes (of all EM frequencies) is related to the size of the aperture (whether real or synthetic). The detecting elements of the telescopes are harmonic structures (biological or electronic).

It is true that the amount of energy in an EM wave is dependent on the amount of energy available at the emission source. If a finite amount of energy is available at the source then the resultant EM wave will have a fixed amount of energy associated with it. For the atom this is fixed by the energy levels tied to the many harmonic structures developed by the interplay of electric fields and magnetic moments (and fields) present.

Interference is a property of waves. The amount of energy that can be detected by a harmonic structure is influenced by interference. For example you can have interference between AM radio stations that have overlapping coverages. When you have a point source then the planer EM wave fronts establish a set interference pattern for each frequency. Random events of quantified EM wave (photons) emission become an ordered set of wave fronts of increased intensity.

smile.gif
janrinze
Hi Montec (and the rest)

Apparently we all have the same background in education and we know our EM waves. Still we have not found a deeper understanding of the duality of the particle/wave.

Maybe we're just running round the theme and checking our grounds before we dare to take a jump..

Anyway, after reading back some posts I started thinking a 'what-if'

What if particles are riding on waves in (for example) the Higgs field. Would waves in the Higgs field be interfering in a DS experiment. If so, the momentum of the particles would change according to the interference pattern in the Higgs field. This would result in an observable interference pattern for DS experiments with uncharged particles.

Any thoughts?

(just steering a little back to the topic..)

Jan Rinze.
Montec
Hello janrinze, et al.

If particles are riding on EM waves then there must be some sort of coupling between the wave and particle. This would be similar to how a linear accelerator adds momentum to the electron by the electric field of a EM wave. The coupling mechanism must be explained by physics.

If a photon particle exits in more than our 3 dimensions then it may appear as just a wave to us 3Drs. This may or may not be the case but I may be interested in the math that describes these extra dimensions.

As for the neutral particles do not forget the Casimir effect. We do not know if there is also a time varying component to this effect. There is also the magnetic moment that all particles have. Vibrational modes of the slit structure may influence the path of the neutral particle via the magnetic moment. Heating or cooling the slit structure should say yes or no about the influence of the magnetic moment. Will have to do some searching on this topic.

smile.gif

Laserlight
Hi Jan, Montec, C2, GE, and All,

Janrinze said:
QUOTE
Still we have not found a deeper understanding of the duality of the particle/wave.

Maybe we're just running round the theme and checking our grounds before we dare to take a jump..


What do a sound wave, a water wave, an earthquake wave, and a light wave
all have in common?
.
.
.
.
They are energy shock impulses that displace the medium through which they
travel, and they all propagate/radiate from a disturbance with a point of origin.

The "particle" aspect could just be the medium that is displaced as the wave passes
a fixed point in time/space. Waves can change direction just because of a change
of refraction between mediums since they have different inate energy levels and
different efficiencies in transferring energy thru them.

Is a physical particle really required to transmit energy from one location to
another, or is the way energy is transferred merely a fundamental characteristic of the medium
thru which it is traveling?

Maybe waves are a 5th state of matter, or energy.

Just another perspective.

Comments?
LL
janrinze
Hi Montec,

Do you suggest that the Higgs field is an EM field??

Jan Rinze.
janrinze
Hi LL,

QUOTE (Laserlight+May 31 2007, 11:38 PM)

Is a physical particle really required to transmit energy from one location to
another, or is the way energy is transferred merely a fundamental characteristic of the medium
thru which it is traveling? 

Maybe waves are a 5th state of matter, or energy.

Just another perspective.

Comments?
LL


I think you have a very good point here.
The 'particle' is an assumption based on the aspects of having either a rest-mass or simply just a momentum. The mass/inertia and the momentum are all localized phenomena (as far as the theory goes) However these can only be verified through other particles (preferably in a cascade mode). In fact there hardly is any measurement done which does not need the conversion of either momentum or energy to a 'particle' for measurement.

come to think of it, we probably even cannot prove particles exist at all. Only 'localized' phenomena. It is merely the projection of macroscopic experience to the quantum scale. (am I repeating myself?)

Anyway, good point LL.

Jan Rinze.

"THEY"
I strike a bell, a sound wave radiates.

I drop a rock in a pond, a water wave radiates.

I ________, a light wave radiates.

What makes the light wave?
Aerohead
Hi They,

You shook an electron !

Jim
Laserlight
Hi Jan and All,

QUOTE
come to think of it, we probably even cannot prove particles exist at all. Only 'localized' phenomena. It is merely the projection of macroscopic experience to the quantum scale. (am I repeating myself?)


Could we describe "matter" as concentrated and balanced energy forces that are
displacing the fabric of spacetime in a localized relative position?

This description fits E=mc^2 and the concept of "mass".

An immediatequestion is why certain kinds of elements "clump" together and are
not randomly/evenly scattered in homogenous fashion. There appears to be a
fundamental characteristic about how "closed" energy systems interact....but I am
deviating from the current topic of discussion.

Perhaps there are associations to made about the general characteristics of
energy and energy "systems".

LL
Laserlight
Hi "They" and Aerohead,

Glad to see you posting/participating!

I "drop" an electron, a light wave radiates.

Like a bell, which is a tuned and closed energy system, an atom will "ring" because
it also is a closed, tuned energy system.

It's all about movement....dislocation from one position and recoil back to the
low energy "ground" state....back to energy equilibrium.

Since energy/force cannot be destroyed, it will always move toward the path of
least resistance/impedance.

Regards,
LL
Montec
Hello janrinze, et al.

I am not sure an EM field could due what is required to define mass. The "Mexican hat" shape of the proposed Higgs field looks like a harmonic function where most of the strength comes at the reversal of direction and less strength in the middle from just a constant motion. The container for this harmonic function should be just the particles involved. I would guess from the available data that the Higgs field is a function involving time. Only time will tell. But we digress from the topic of this thread.

A definition of a photon could be the emission energy from a harmonic structure that is supplied with a fixed amount of energy. In synchrotron radiation the amount of energy and frequency emitted by a single electron is based on the momentum of the electron and how fast its direction can be changed. The electron losses momentum equal to the energy emitted as a photon. The energy contained in the photon can be more or less than that produced by an atom at the same frequency.

The amount of energy contained in an EM wave that is detected at a harmonic structure is based on the size of said structure and the energy density of the EM wave. The energy density seen by the harmonic structure is influenced by EM wave interference.

smile.gif


janrinze
Hi Montec,

so do you propose that the momentum of a photon is a result of EM waves?
That would imply that inertia is EM related.

The other view could be that there is another cause for inertia which could be the Higgs field..

What explanation do you have for the adsorption of one photon and the instantaneous collapse of a wave function which is dispersed over a huge area. And how do you explain that the wave 'decides' to collapse at a certain point (since an interference pattern only shows the probability)

Jan Rinze.
P.S. with phonons there are similar conceptual problems..
Good Elf
Hi janrinze, "THEY", Laserlight, Jal, Confused2, Zephir, yquantum, TRoc, Montec, Pink Elephant, Neil Farbstein, et al,

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Do you disagree with the concept of individual atomic dipoles, located on the skin of an antenna, each radiating quantums of energy that combine to form a composite (entangled) EM waveform? Of course, there must be resonance for the individual radiated energies to synchronize and form the wave. Please elaborate.
You are right about individual atoms being a source of single photon resonance. The question is do these optical excitation give rise in any way to sub-optical frequencies? As you know I have argued that photons are in many ways nearly indestructible and represent "events". Conduction band photons are another phenomena altogether. I would agree that the solid state is not my main strong point. The size of quanta is dictated by the equation E = hf. This holds for all photons. In that respect all photons are quantized. The "effect" is mostly seen when the scale of particles reaches a level where there are only a certain number of small building blocks to use. This results in all "transmitters" in the sub-atomic realm having only a limited choice in hybridization. The energy processes of single atoms depends on the process of absorption of a quanta, storage of the quanta, emission of the quanta. Between absorption and emission the shell can't accept any more photons since resonant photons "fill" shells. I will not go into the details but this is already known. This results in a "stop and go" supply of energy and not a continuous supply. In short, the harmonic energy is discontinuous. It can emit the photon at E = hf for only a certain amount of time before it is "exhausted". This is "quantization", a sinewave truncated by a "boxcar function". Specifically... photons are all "impulses".
User posted image
...Click to enlarge...
The artificial nature of electromagnetic machinery is actually a wonderful idea that reached a pinnacle with Nicola Tesla and polyphase systems. It has harnessed the idea of resonance and combined it with power generation technology. I doubt very much if the 20th Century would have amounted to a hill of beans without it. The sub-atomic Universe is yet to discover this form of energy supply.... he he he! Tesla was a Century or two ahead of his time, I can't think of another Scientist who could think out of the box like he could and invent a process that is not found in nature... at least not in our neck of the Universe.

Individual atomic excitations are in the optical range of frequencies such as those you can see in the orange light of Sodium Vapor Lamps, or the whiter light of Mercury Vapor Lamps and even Fluorescent Lighting (another amazing invention of Tesla). The atoms do not emit using any principle of actual conduction but by stimulated emission of individual solitary atoms using gas discharge currents. The emission of photons of enormously longer wavelengths from radio transmitters do not apparently use atomic transitions in individual atoms, in fact the antenna itself is a kind of "super atom" the size of the whole structure and we have only recently devised Cavity QED (see previous references). The cavities are built to resonate and emit and nothing more. They differ from atoms in being entirely purpose built. In that respect they partially emulate that transition from a low energy state... a "ground state" of the antenna and the excited state which is capable of launching free photons into space. These photons are roughly the size of the antenna... at least in the longitudinal direction... in the transverse direction they are spreading very rapidly into our flat space. It is almost a coincidence that electrons are there to move "something" at the edge of our Universe...

The problem in the past has been the inability to see that the antenna and us share three dimensional space with these structures. Every "particle"contains an additional six "compact" reciprocal dimensions (plus reciprocal time... frequency) that are certainly not "simple extensions" of our three dimensional "bosonic" space or spacetime, but they do connect with our spaces in a reciprocal relationship. This is why when we walk into an electromagnetic field of a radio transmitter, we are unable to witness "additional dimensions". However additional dimensions are truly there but in a very strange "ghostly way"... through a reciprocal relationship. In this "super atom" the "nuts-and-bolts" structure of the antenna is composed mostly of fermions. In the space surrounding this structure there is an extension of this matter from the antenna into an unseen bosonic dual of that structure. This is the macroscopic equivalent of examining a single proton in isolation. Radio Techs call this phenomenon "sidebands".

Surrounding this "proton prototype" of an antenna are all the shells you would normally find in a "synthetic hydrogen atom" of equivalent size, just that it lacks electrons. The parallel is a real proton (hydrogen nucleus) which has resonant spatial extensions in the surrounding reciprocal space. Photons created by the transmitter enter into that higher dimensional space and what we are seeing in our "flat space" are ripples on the surface of spacetime as photons in that reciprocal environment "escape" and cast their "EM Shadows" into our Universe. Material particles cannot normally enter that quantum space because of their relatively curved geometry relative to our flatter three dimensional space. To get from here to there requires the process quantum tunnel into that other space through the action of spatial resonance.

What has this to do with the question? It is simply a little background to saying that photons are not about to mix since it is the nature of photons not to mix but photons can superimpose their states as bosons. This is not the same thing and it is not actually specifically related to entanglement. Correlation is not entanglement, but there are some relationships. The reason why photons cannot actually mix is because they are traveling at the speed of light and a little EM theory will show that the group and the phase velocity for photons are identical and equal to the speed of light in a vacuum. This could be interpreted as the sync function in the direction of propagation does not change at all it... Is like walking across the room holding a bent coat hanger wire in the shape of that sync function, that is the analogy for the photon in that longitudinal direction. Time itself is not progressing (it is an "event") because the photon is on the light cone wall. This make the photon internally virtually indestructible since it is on the literal edge of the light cone wall. This translates to electromotive force of mutual attraction repulsion if interacting with a similar photon and since photons cannot travel at a speed other than that of light it alters the refractive index of free space (we have already discussed this earlier in the thread). Thus we have the study of "Singular Optics" of Dr. Taco Visser.

Laserlight ... consider two optical photons with these properties how are they going to interact and produce longer and lower energy photons similar to that in a radio transmitter composed of these radient optical frequency photons? I have been arguing for almost indestructible photons and suddenly we are mixing "cocktails" with them. wink.gif
User posted image
... Click to enlarge...
This picture of a short segment of a continuous wave (which every wave ultimately is...) composed of identical photons is not a "mixture" but a superposition within co-moving and overlapping boson states (one photon or a trillion photons it is all the same for bosons, no crowding here)... simply a mode of longitudinal transport of mutually nearly indestructible "packets" defining "spreading" events. That "surface", and specifically for one photon, can be highly irregular depending on geometry, and defines a "spacetime event" as we have discussed previously. Photons can be absorbed or not from this "wave" all at once or not at all, there is nothing in between ... no partial absorptions without the loss of the qubit. One Caveat... I will still caution everyone about associating these "unseen waves" with a "particle" or "packet" as this is an interpretation and I must still use some words to describe this phenomenon. It is a wave and this is wave phenomena.
QUOTE (Confused2+)
All EM radiation is quantized .. at lower frequencies the energy of each 'quanta' is so small that you need a lot of them to detect anything - 'intensity' continues to be psi^2 . Classical field theories 'work' because the number of photons involved is (typically) huge.
Numbers of photons make no difference to detectability, efficient resonators can capture single photons.. experiments in Cavity QED show radio frequency photons can be detected with suitable resonant structures, I suggest a look into Gravity Wave Detectors and work out just what frequencies are relevant there and how many photons are being counted when measuring those signals. Confused2 wishes to say that all photons are quantized. This is true but the size of photons dictates the size of the emitter and we can trim emitters the size of a house to fit any requirement (it is still quantized), but we can't "knock the corners off" a proton or an electron or any sub-atomic particle to fit a "wish list" of frequencies. So "quantized" does not mean rigidly fixed but in practice the smaller the wavelength of the photon is, the more constrained the emitters to frequency. The building blocks of macroscopic radio transmitters are a little modular to allow "every possible quantization" between various standards... Thanks to Tesla we also know how to supply continuous energy to such structures as well providing us with nearly continuous wave energy. LASERS are another later advance in energy pumping that Einstein had "gedankened".

Cheers
Montec
Hello janrinze, et al.

I believe that the momentum a harmonic structure feels as a result of the emission or adsorption of a photon of energy is a result of the electric and magnetic fields of the EM wave affecting the charged particles that are part of the harmonic structure. I also believe that a harmonic structure is required to convert one form of energy to another.

Inertia may also be just the lack of a suitable "harmonic structure" to to couple energy to or from an object. As of yet, I have not come across any theory that gives the Higgs field the ability to cause inertia.

I believe that the adsorption of one photon is only a localized event that involves just the harmonic structure. That portion of the EM wave not affected/adsorbed by the harmonic structure just keeps on going. Therefore, the EM wave does not collapse at one point. Electronic eavesdropping would not work very well if the entire EM wave structure were to collapse. Remember there is no limit on the amount of energy that a harmonic structure can emit or absorb unless there is a constraint built into said harmonic structure. For atoms/molecules this constraint is related to the strength of the fields that hold them together.

smile.gif

P.S. My beliefs are always open to change/modification in the light of new data. Also as a caveat to Good Elf I am not limiting a harmonic structure to just the 3D world.
Laserlight
Hi Jan, Montec, and All,

Janrinze asked:
QUOTE
What explanation do you have for the adsorption of one photon and the instantaneous collapse of a wave function which is dispersed over a huge area. And how do you explain that the wave 'decides' to collapse at a certain point (since an interference pattern only shows the probability)


I had previously proposed that a photon collapses at the intersection of the E and H
planes along the centerline of the propagating waveform. In this scenario, the
energy of both EM fields must contribute to resonantly interfere with the EM fields
of the absorbing atom in order to facilitate wave collapse. The point of
greatest wave resonance should be maximum at the intersection of the x and y
planes.


I have also proposed that the line of flight of a waveform can deviate from a
straight path if the phase symmetry of either one or the other of the E or H fields
is distorted by interacting in close proximity with the fields of matter . If a
field "phase shape" is warped or distorted, the phase timing and therefore the
direction of the wave is affected.

The idea is similar to the line of flight of a ball that glances off of an oblique wall
that changes its normal straight line of flight. The ball will deflect according to the
angle of contact, which could be compared with the phase angle of the fields
of a photon at the point of collision/distortion caused by interacting with the
change of refractive index created by the geometry of the slits.

The probablility of the change of direction could be directly correlated with the
phase angle of each separate photon as it passes thru the slit cavities. The phase
angle of the photon as it enters the slits is the only variable in a fixed geometry
DS experiment. Every thing else in the experimental setup is spatially and
temporally "fixed".

Comments anyone?
LL
Good Elf
Hi Montec,

QUOTE (Montec+)
P.S. My beliefs are always open to change/modification in the light of new data. Also as a caveat to Good Elf I am not limiting a harmonic structure to just the 3D world.
Indeed... The 3D realm is the limit of Lagrangian and Hamiltonian Processes limited by the Principle of Least Action. Three dimensions of space and one dimension of time define a "set" of dimensions that confines all non-quantum processes in them to a "quantum box". Our universe has compact embedded higher reciprocal dimensions. There are other "sets" there. They are not reached by brute force but by quantum tunneling.

The small scale of some sub-atomic particle and EM processes will mean that while optical photons cannot pass these Nuclear and sub-Nuclear Boundaries (bandwidth limited) ... higher frequency "matter waves" most certainly can. This results in unseen Kondo Phantoms of external particles as internal fully functional images (a Hall of Mirrors... a "Looking Glass" Universe) by virtue of Wheeler-Feynman Absorber Theory. The significant point is these higher frequencies beyond the optical range are not partaking in Quantum Electrodynamic Atomic Processes in our Universe (because atomic shells cannot trap them). The QED processes are responsible for all we see and experience in our World (other than radioactivity and "gravity") so that "realm" represents the next level of a reality we cannot currently see. To our Physics this "realm" is "dark".

"He who has ears let him hear!" wink.gif

Cheers
Laserlight
Hi GE,

I appreciate the thoughtful response, but there appears to be some inconsistency
in parts of your argument that I feel we must discuss to clarify. I am very open
to critique from anyone wishing to comment.

QUOTE
What has this to do with the question? It is simply a little background to saying that photons are not about to mix since it is the nature of photons not to mix but photons can superimpose their states as bosons. This is not the same thing and it is not actually specifically related to entanglement. Correlation is not entanglement, but there are some relationships. The reason why photons cannot actually mix is because they are traveling at the speed of light and a little EM theory will show that the group and the phase velocity for photons are identical and equal to the speed of light in a vacuum. This could be interpreted as the sync function in the direction of propagation does not change at all it... Is like walking across the room holding a bent coat hanger wire in the shape of that sync function, that is the analogy for the photon in that longitudinal direction. Time itself is not progressing (it is an "event") because the photon is on the light cone wall. This make the photon internally virtually indestructible since it is on the literal edge of the light cone wall. This translates to electromotive force of mutual attraction repulsion if interacting with a similar photon and since photons cannot travel at a speed other than that of light it alters the refractive index of free space (we have already discussed this earlier in the thread). Thus we have the study of "Singular Optics" of Dr. Taco Visser.

Laserlight ... consider two optical photons with these properties how are they going to interact and produce longer and lower energy photons similar to that in a radio transmitter composed of these radient optical frequency photons? I have been arguing for almost indestructible photons and suddenly we are mixing "cocktails" with them.


My argument:
If we have a very tall transmitting antenna, your contention is that each cycle
of the waves transmitted is a discrete, single photon that is the exact size
of the antenna. Also, according to quantum theory a photon cannot be
divided into smaller parts, all energy contained within that "photon" must
be absorbed instantly at a receiving location. There can be no partial absorption.

This contradicts my contention that a long EM wave is a composite of
billions/trillions of time and phase synchronous photons that comprise an
expanding EM wavefront. They do not have to be radiating in the optical spectrum
since they are being resonantly time and frequency modulated by a sinewave
that synchronizes and combines their total energy output. This composite output signal
is a harmonic response whose frequency is some integral multiple of a fundamental frequency.

This is fine, I am after the truth, even if my contention is "wrong". The truth can
be black or white, occasionally with shades of grey. biggrin.gif

Now I will offer an example that questions your contention of a huge photon that
cannot be divided. If an AM radio antenna, 100 meters tall, radiates a photon of
that size that cannot be divided into smaller parts, how can a small transistor radio
absorb a 100M photon with an antenna tank circuit that is some integral portion
of that photon? It is apparent that a portion of the EM field is inducing voltages
and currents into the radio's resonant antenna tank circuit, but this seems to
contradict the concept of an energy indivisible, supersized photon which would
require an antenna of the same length to be absorbed.

If however, a single radiated AM wave is actually comprised of trillions of
individual photons that have interactive/harmonic resonating fields that are not in
the optical spectrum, then the wave energy should be divisible with a tuned
resonant receiver that can tap into those harmonic subfields.

This is a bit beyond my depth and I admit to being "rusty" on the topic.....

Looking forward to your counterpoint argument, or anyone elses.

"He who has eyes, let him see!" cool.gif
LL
Confused2
Hi LL, GE et al,

If you view your little AM radio as a photon counter with a very very low efficiency then the problem raised by LL simply doesn't exist.

If however, a single radiated AM wave is actually comprised of trillions of individual photons
No problem
that have interactive/harmonic resonating fields that are not in the optical spectrum
Can you explain why you introduce 'optical spectrum' here? I've never seen anything in a transmitter that could possibly make anything in the optical spectrum (except temporarily and catastrophically)
Best wishes - C2.

Edit .. it may be helpful/important/useful to remember that AM waves (from AM radio stations) are coherent - like lasers (but at radio frequency)
Laserlight
Hi C2,

Regarding the optical photon spectrum. The examples most given by quantum
theory are that when an atom releases energy when an electron drops back into
the ground state is that a photon of specific optical frequency is released. You and
I have experience in radar systems where helically spinning electrons travelling
thru high magnetic flux fields aligned to tuned resonant cavities produce
microwaves. Depending upon the distance the electron travels thru the fields and
the size and resonant tuning of the cavity, different non-optical freqencies are
produced. In all cases all the frequencies produced fall within a modulating
band width. As TRoc has pointed out, an emitted "frequency" waveform is an
average of all the sub-frequencies that are integral harmonic multiples of the
fundamental. (I think I stated that correctly?)

Sidelobes are sub-harmonics of the primary/fundamental frequency waveform.

C2 stated:
QUOTE
If you view your little AM radio as a photon counter with a very very low efficiency then the problem raised by LL simply doesn't exist.


Can you explain how you can tap only a portion of a single photon? Another
radio right next to the 1st will register a click at the same time, that can't be
a single huge photon since both radio's detected it simultaneously, if we
follow the rules of quantum theory.


LL
Confused2
Hi LL,
QUOTE
an emitted "frequency" waveform is an average of all the sub-frequencies that are integral harmonic multiples of the fundamental. (I think I stated that correctly?)


I'm sorry .. I'm not sure what that means.
Examples please

We have an AM radio station transmitting on (say) 500khz without modulation the frequencies present would be ..?

We have an AM radio station transmitting on (say) 500khz with 100% modulation at 1Kz the frequencies present would be ..?

Best wishes -C2.

Edit my answers 1 ) 500khz 2) 499khz and 501kHz .. hence I can't see what you want to average and what you get when you've done it.
Confused2
QUOTE (LL+)
Can you explain how you can tap only a portion of a single photon? Another
radio right next to the 1st will register a click at the same time, that can't be
a single huge photon since both radio's detected it simultaneously, if we
follow the rules of quantum theory.


The probability of detection varies sinusoidally (as shown by the DSE). There is no reason to suggest that two radios are ever detecting the same photon - there are plenty enough (zillions) for both radios.
Best wishes -C2.

Edit .. the 'wavelength' that we saw with the single photon DSE manifests itself as a variation in counts. Using photographic film it manifests itself as a series of dots. If you didn't have a big enough piece of film to cover a whole wavelength you would simply count less dots (an inefficient detector) - I don't see the problem. I'll look for photographic single photons - about time we had them again.
Confused2
Not great but the best I can find
User posted image
From http://www.physics.brown.edu/physics/demop...demo/7a5520.htm
Best wishes -C2.
Laserlight
C2,

QUOTE
We have an AM radio station transmitting on (say) 500khz without modulation the frequencies present would be ..?

We have an AM radio station transmitting on (say) 500khz with 100% modulation at 1Kz the frequencies present would be ..?


There is a bandwidth of integral frequencies that comprise the 500Khz carrier
signal. The carrier is cycling at 500K times a second according to f= 1/t.
Thats a 2 microsecond wave cycle interval t = 1/f.

500Khz is the bandwidth. What I am talking about are the range of frequencies
that reside within the 500Khz oscillating frequency bandwidth as it oscillates over
360 degrees angular rotation.


Do you disagree that there is an integral range/band of freqencies within the
wave of the 500K signal? I agree with TRoc, that there are multiple wavelength
freqencies within that signal that are modulated at that 500Khz average frequency
output.
------

Your second example is a sine wave frequency superimposed on another sine
wave frequency (frequency modulation) so you have a composite oscillating
waveform rather than a pure oscillating waveform. There is a bandwidth of
operation that is +/- 1000Khz of 500Khz. 499Khz-501Khz.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../sumdif.html#c3

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../sumdif.html#c1


I do admit being a bit rusty... Perhaps TRoc can elaborate, this is within
his realm of expertise.


Comments?
LL
Montec
Hello C2

AM radio is "amplitude modulation" The frequency does not change. The amplitude (signal strength) is modulated to produce a signal.

FM radio is "frequency modulation". The amplitude of the signal does not change. The frequency is modulated to produce a signal.

There are other schemes to produce a signal but most involve one of the above as there basis.

Just a little clarification.

smile.gif
Laserlight
C2,

We are obviously not talking about the same single GIANT photon. Just 1 impulse.

QUOTE
The probability of detection varies sinusoidally (as shown by the DSE). There is no reason to suggest that two radios are ever detecting the same photon - there are plenty enough (zillions) for both radios.


We were talking theoretically about a single huge photon radiating from
an antenna of very large size, not a chain of photons.

The question/issue was regarding how a small tuned circuit, that was smaller than
the size of the photon, could trap any partial energy from that huge photon and still
adhere to the laws of quantum theory. That seems inconsistent with the idea of
a single huge photon, as opposed to the idea of lots of small quantum energies
(photons) travelling as discrete "parts" of a coherent modulated wave of
specific frequency.

LL

Montec
Hello Laserlight, et al.

Are you saying that the strength of the signal from an AM radio antenna is a function of the number of photons produced by the accelerating elections within the antenna? That the higher signal strength at a receiver is a function of the number of photons absorbed?

Would not this demand that the fixed number of electrons within the antenna radiate more photons as a function of the driving AC signal voltage.

The strength of the EM wave produced by an antenna is a function of the applied voltage of the AC signal. The AC signal is phase matched to the antenna. A stronger applied voltage causes the electrons to move faster and this generates a higher current and magnetic field. The alternating current and magnetic field generate the EM wave. The charge flow per unit volume (current) determines the strength of the magnetic field generated and hence the strength of the EM wave generated.

For a given EM wave frequency there is an optimal sized antenna (harmonic structure) to both send and receive a signal. Any harmonic structure can be a mixture of both real and virtual structures.

smile.gif

Confused2
Hi LL,

I was also talking about a single 'huge' photon and trying to use the DSE to show (experimentally) how a single photon behaves in reality. To have a 100% probability of detecting a single photon would (potentially) require a 'huge' apparatus but for AM radio we don't need 100% probability.. you can (surely?) see that the single photon DSE shows counts are not all the same and not all in the same place? With just a small region you still stand a chance of detecting some - except at the points of total destructive interference.

I suspect one of the conceptual problems lies in the 'tuned' circuit .. this keeps coming up but is difficult to deal with because there is an element of truth in it. For best reception the impedance of the aerial needs to be matched to the amplifier - if the match is not perfect then the probability of detection is substantially reduced. To get perfect matching the aerial must (normally) behave as a perfect resistor otherwise 'photons' or 'waves' (whichever) bounce straight out again without being detected. The wodge of ferrite in an AM radio is to increase the inductance of the receiving coil/capacor loading so it looks (fairly) resistive over the range of frequencies of interest - the resistive match happens (not uncoincidentally) to be when the whole lot is resonant at the frequency of interest. We need to match impedances - that is all. Too much detail? Or not enough?

Best wishes-C2.

Edit .. perfect resistor = perfect absorber (no reflection)
Edit2 .. As a point of interest .. mu0, epsilon0 and quarter wave whip (on a ground plane) combine to give 50ohm resistive load .. hence the popularity of 50ohm cable.
Confused2
Hi Montec,

QUOTE
Are you saying that the strength of the signal from an AM radio antenna is a function of the number of photons produced by the accelerating elections within the antenna? That the higher signal strength at a receiver is a function of the number of photons absorbed?

Maxwell's equations deal with a mysterious E's and H's which can't really be related to individual electrons. Personally I am being forced into the view that these equations are pretty much 100% quantum which strongly suggests the electron and the whole (say) aerial are behaving in QM mode rather than classical mode.

There is (almost) certainly an optimum sized aerial for any situation - but even a bad one can work - just a matter of probality - or grey rather than black and white.



Best wishes -C2.
Laserlight
Hi Montec,

QUOTE
Are you saying that the strength of the signal from an AM radio antenna is a function of the number of photons produced by the accelerating elections within the antenna? That the higher signal strength at a receiver is a function of the number of photons absorbed?


Basically, YES!

The number of photons propagating in phase = waveform amplitude =
signal power.


A single photon has only a single quantum of energy at a fixed voltage amplitude.

GE made a statement that is correct, that an antenna acts like a very large
atom, this is because all of the atoms that make up the antenna are being
coherently/resonantly stimulated to add their total field energies together, that is
why antenna surface area is important. Length controls the wavelength desired,
but surface area controls the total power that can be transmitted per unit area.

I almost agree with everything else that you said. There is an issue with only
applying voltage to an antenna, to have power you must have current applied
to attain efficiency, but I understood your intention.

I x E x PF
1000

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Useful/formulas.htm


Apparently, I have not explained my position clearly enough, which is my fault.
Let me try another tact.

If you have a single atom that you are stimulating with a set amount of power, it
can only produce a fixed maximum amount of power/field output without ionizing.

If you have 10 atoms being coherently stimulated they will produce a field strength
of 10x that which can be expected by a single atom.

Likewise a small magnet has a fixed size H field which is limited by the number of
atoms that make up the mass of the magnet, but if you increase the size of the
magnet the H field strength will increase geometrically with the dimensions of the
magnet.

More atoms means a bigger field can be developed and more power (intensity)
can be developed. This works the same for E and H fields. The amount of power
(signal amplitude) that an antenna can radiate in each EM wave is determined by
its physical size and dimensions.

My original point was that it is the number of atoms in the antenna that are
are emitting photons (EM energy) in a cascade fashion (wave) which gives the
wave its intensity/power. A single photon can only transfer a fixed quantum of
energy per wave cycle.

Does this make my contention clearer?

I'm open for critique, comments.

LL

Laserlight
Hi C2,

QUOTE
you can (surely?) see that the single photon DSE shows counts are not all the same and not all in the same place? With just a small region you still stand a chance of detecting some - except at the points of total destructive interference.


I have no problem with this. Never have.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
you can (surely?) see that the single photon DSE shows counts are not all the same and not all in the same place? With just a small region you still stand a chance of detecting some - except at the points of total destructive interference.


I have no problem with this. Never have.

To get perfect matching the aerial must (normally) behave as a perfect resistor otherwise 'photons' or 'waves' (whichever) bounce straight out again without being detected. The wodge of ferrite in an AM radio is to increase the inductance of the receiving coil/capacor loading so it looks (fairly) resistive over the range of frequencies of interest - the resistive match happens (not uncoincidentally) to be when the whole lot is resonant at the frequency of interest. We need to match impedances - that is all. Too much detail? Or not enough?


An aerial must be a perfect conductor to maximize voltage and current flow,
we are matching the impedance to maximize conduction to the impedance
represented by the circuitry at the frequency we are detecting. The idea is to tune
the antenna to minimize parasitic signal losses. A different perspective. laugh.gif

QUOTE
Edit .. perfect resistor = perfect absorber (no reflection)


A blackbody "sink" is a perfect absorber that allows full current flow with no
losses. A resistor resists current flow and generates heat (losses) as a byproduct.....

Am I being anal? rolleyes.gif

LL
Confused2
QUOTE (LL+)
A "sink" is a perfect absorber that allows full current flow, a resistor resists current flow..... Am I being anal?


Clearly I wasn't clear (I TRY - GOD KNOWS I TRY) .

We assume the aerial is made of a perfect conductur but it behaves like a resistor .. the energy is radiated, which is what we want. Any capacitative or reactive component from the aerial will send currents back down our feeder (SWR) and we don't want MORE current in our output stage we have enough problems keeping it cool already.

Best wishes - C2.
Laserlight
C2,

QUOTE
Clearly I wasn't clear (I TRY - GOD KNOWS I TRY) .


ROTFLMAO! You are a good sport! I knew what you meant,
I couldn't resist! (pun intended) laugh.gif

Best Regards,
LL
Good Elf
Hi Laserlight, janrinze, "THEY", Jal, Confused2, Zephir, yquantum, TRoc, Montec, Pink Elephant, Neil Farbstein, et al,

While I am away many pages of posts flow in and I cannot thoughtfully answer all these ideas at once but I will try. Once again this may be long winded but I hope that by being long winded this will settle the matter. I would remind everyone that I am not usually speaking about anything revolutionary in regard to these technologies and they are subject to a lot of cross checking and basic understanding but usually this understanding is compartmentalized by our educational systems so the "head" does not know what the "tail" is doing. As usual I will give my "simple" elven ideas. I am fully qualified in Physics and have my degrees in several disciplines so I am not unaware that what I am saying leaves a lot out ... mathematics in its discipline also "leaves a lot out" but it is often surrounded by much "hubris" just because it is mathematics. As heads of business say when confronted by technical issues... "I do not need brains to run a business, I can buy brains". A paraphrase of this concept would be... "I do not need to know how to physically perform the mathematics, I can buy mathematicians and I have powerful tools that can also perform the maths for me readily available on the web and off the software shelf." I suggest you all consider the disciplines of maths as simply being a technical skill and not an ability to understand anything at all. For that we need to be Physicists (and Technicians). What counts is how the physics dovetails with the experiments... Nothing else matters...
QUOTE (Einstein+)
"Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted."
Think about that.

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Hi GE,

I appreciate the thoughtful response, but there appears to be some inconsistency
in parts of your argument that I feel we must discuss to clarify. I am very open
to critique from anyone wishing to comment.
I appreciate your curteousy and good will and I realize that some aspects of this theory can be very technical and this tends to obscure the underlying physical phenomenon with technical jargon. Some are using probability to describe these points and I am attempting to use a more concrete almost Bohmian approach to these quantum phenomena.

Please lets not become embroiled in the argument about individual photon destinies and the ability/inability to predict them only by their gross properties (I have discussed the folly of this before). A particular photon is either absorbed or not ... probability is not the determining factor for individual photons since individual photons cannot be allocated any specific value because it can only take a value in the end of 0 or 1 probability, a whole photon is absorbed or is not, nothing in between. What is more important is to understand what is happening. The destiny of a single photon can be expressed as a probability, but it is not probability that "excites" a detector circuit, it is the efficient reception of whole photons. There are no 50% photon excitations due to a 50% probability of absorption, it is all or nothing... capisci!. The photon can sail right through "solid matter" by tunneling if conditions for absorption are not satisfactory.. Experimental fact and that is logical too from what I have said. We are not about counting the unreceived photons (of which there are many) and asking the question how or why we did not measure them. What is very clear is we can detect only whole photons and not partial photons. The corrolary is there are no partial absorptions that leave the qubit unchanged, if the qubit is changed it is now no longer the same photon since the information being carried from the source is no longer correlated.
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
My argument:

If we have a very tall transmitting antenna, your contention is that each cycle of the waves transmitted is a discrete, single photon that is the exact size of the antenna. Also, according to quantum theory a photon cannot be divided into smaller parts, all energy contained within that "photon" must be absorbed instantly at a receiving location. There can be no partial absorption.

This contradicts my contention that a long EM wave is a composite of billions/trillions of time and phase synchronous photons that comprise an expanding EM wavefront. They do not have to be radiating in the optical spectrum since they are being resonantly time and frequency modulated by a sinewave that synchronizes and combines their total energy output. This composite output signal is a harmonic response whose frequency is some integral multiple of a fundamental frequency.
The confusion is that you are seeing only one mechanism for generation of photons. Some "electromagnetic machines" generate many photons all at once. The use of electromagnetic machines to generate copious photons all in the same state and all at the same frequency is dependent on the generator... in the case of atoms the 1/2 wave dipole is sub-atomic, the power source is "discontinuous" and the frequencies are optical. In the case of radio waves (or microwaves) the 1/2 wave dipole is quite large physically and the power source is "effectively" continuous, the size can be centimeters or kilometers (the size of the antenna... like the TV antenna on the roof of the house or the Magnetron in your Microwave Oven, you can physically manipulate it) you can choose to build photons depending on its size to order since this is just physically trimming the basic "cavity" designs. You cannot trim the optical frequency of the Sodium D line. This is because sodium atoms are fixed frequency oscillators and they work strictly one photon at a time.

Atoms cannot be "powered" like a microwave or like the TV Channel to provide continuous waves, we use other methods to provide continuous wave energy for them. I know off only one way presently to downconvert short wavelength photons into longer wave photons ... the use of BBO crystals (resulting in "inefficient" entanglement). This works by "splitting" the photons not combining them. Do not confuse this with LASERS since it is a separate means of excitation to produce continuous wave energy. Both LASERS and Radio Transmitters produce correlated photons but the mechanism is totally different... Stimulated Emission with population inversion in a much longer optical cavity. In general each individual photon is a separate entity like blowing bubbles from a straw in soapy water, only in this case all "photon bubbles" on the same wavefront occupy exactly the same physical space. You can "pack them in"... trillions at a time.

The soap bubble analogy (and it is an analogy... a "Membrane Theory" akin to M-Theory) can be extended a little to include a soap bubble ring (1/2 wavelength dipole "bubble" radiator) where when you blow into it many bubbles of the same size (depending on the size of the ring) are formed. Atoms and their cavities have only enough "suds" and "puff" to form one bubble of a particular size at a time in this analogy. One bubble in... One bubble out. Electromagnetic "bubble" machines can supply continuous "suds" to the hoop and blow continuously with a continuous impressed source of power making one bubble at a time of a particular size. "Bosons " like light photons can all exist in superimposed states at the same time unlike soap bubbles which are "fermions" and must observe "space quantization". If I blow too slowly the bubble remains attached to the hoop and if you stop blowing at the critical moment the bubble collapses back to the source and not escapes but returns the "suds" and the "puff".... This is an "inductive" soap bubble. There is a minimum "speed of blowing" that can effectively form intact radiated "bubbles" below a critical energy no radiated bubbles can form. After each "bubble" emission some suds are snapped back onto the hoop to form part of the next "radiated" bubble (near field suck back)... Get it? I hope this analogy is not too patronizing?
User posted image
The generation of continuous waves depends on how the individual impulses translate into waves through individual state collapses... millions at a time to create tiny movements of electrons in electronic circuits which can be amplified. Warning: I am forced to use the common language in these discussions because if I start to talk about it in terms of a string theory nobody will understand and, even worse, people will be outraged by the unfamiliar paradigm to the point that they will think I am speaking gibberish.

The physical size of photons is tied directly through a constant in free space to the frequency... the equation linking the two is C = fλ where C is the free space speed of light. We have another equation E = hf which locks the frequency or the wavelength in free space to a quantum of energy at every frequency, the only point is question is how can we vary the frequency continuously in the sub-atomic realm to produce photons of any "size"... the answer is there are limits to construction of oscillators being built to be of any nominated size since the Universe is filled with building block solitons of fixed size (though CPT-Lorentz Symmetry) and though there are a lot of frequencies to be found naturally at this level of the Universe it is not possible to construct a variable frequency optical cavity at optical frequencies simply on the grounds of engineering limitations. Without complicating this story, we are a resourceful species and we can find ways around this limitation practically but it will not be by "knocking corners off atoms". That is the free space answer to that problem. The speed of light "may" change in condensed matter but it the only way in which the speed of light can change in free space would be through the modification of free space refractive index. Refractive index is a complex quantity so while "speed" does not change, its direction can. That is the way refractive index can vary through variation is direction by using complex space. This is natural with all electromagnetic phenomena and you can do nothing in EM theory without the square root of minus one. This adds another simultaneous dimension to each of the three existing dimensions of the measurables through a property of phase. Regardless of the apparent contradiction of terms there is nothing "imaginary" about these quantities... they are as real as any other and they represent a phase space, the complement to three dimensional space and orthogonal to it. Is this a physical space?

QUOTE (Laserlight+)
....They do not have to be radiating in the optical spectrum since they are being resonantly time and frequency modulated by a sinewave that synchronizes and combines their total energy output.
In a word... No. There is no mechanism for this. Transitions are either in the the optical frequencies and discontinuous or they are correlated to electric fields in free electrons in the conduction bands of larger structures. LASERS use optical frequencies, MASERS use microwave frequencies, radio transmitters use tank circuits and radiating antennas, the radiation generated is in proportion to the cavity size or sometimes a fraction of the cavity size as in LASERS, Klystrons or Magnetrons.

The basic principle uses a tank circuit... It can literally be a physical resonant tank or it can be a delay line with inductive and capacitive components which also can resonate.

How can a small antenna pick up and transduce a really big photon? Specially phase loaded miniature antennas effectively change the speed of light through them using dielectric ferrite materials reducing the free space propagation wavelength to a much shorter and more manageable one inside the material that we then match this transmission line to a "load" that can amplify the feeble signals. They are not efficient aerials but they occasionally do impedance match the tiny signal to the line for individual photons and can amplify the signal from them sufficiently to be useful.
Wikipedia: Antenna (radio)
Wikipedia: Antenna tuner
Remember most transducers are converting the complex voltages in elements into "projections" through their cross product. This loses the phase information which is very useful... for instance in making Holograms... but if you only want to listen to a "DJ" this is no problem. This is an apparently irreversible process... according to standard theory but now at least "some" experiments can go a little further (previously referenced here) and absorbed photons can be made to recover and still carry that information "back from the dead". Shades of Feynman and Wheeler.

Cheers
Nick
GOODELF YOU SAID SOMETHING I WISH TO COMMENT ON:
QUOTE (GOODELF+)
the whole photon is absorbed or is not, nothing in between.


I READ THAT IN INVERSE COMPTON SCATTERING A PHOTON CAN PICK UP ENERGY FROM AN ELECTRON. ALSO THERE IS PARTIAL ABSORPTION OF THE ENERGY OF LIGHT IN NORMAL COMPTON SCATTERING. THE ELECTRON STEALS SOME ENERGY FROM THE LIGHT WAVE. I READ ALL THIS IN WIKIPEDIA.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS VALID?

JUST ASKING.

MITCH RAEMSCH -- LIGHT FELL --


Good Elf
Hi Nick,

QUOTE
READ THAT IN INVERSE COMPTON SCATTERING A PHOTON CAN PICK UP ENERGY FROM AN ELECTRON. ALSO THERE IS PARTIAL ABSORPTION OF THE ENERGY OF LIGHT IN NORMAL COMPTON SCATTERING. THE ELECTRON STEALS SOME ENERGY FROM THE LIGHT WAVE. I READ ALL THIS IN WIKIPEDIA.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS VALID?
Thanks for that question... Of course! These photons are not the same incident photons and they have been scattered inelastically (read absorbed into a cavity). The photons can no longer be used to gain information from their original sources... They are no longer coherent. They now contain information derived from their scattering event in the space near the electron. For this to work the electron must present some kind of dimension to the photon at least around the scale of a 1/2 wavelength of the incident light. Alternatively there is some shell character in the space the electron is in for the photon to be scattered by the electron.

All experiment shows that electrons have no "apparent" dimensional size to present but they exhibit a magnetic dipole and a charge. This fact does suggests they will have some structure in the space (according to my interpretation of the theory). It is firmly experimentally backed property through creation of an artificial electron-positron atom in a laboratory (Positronium... see below). These "atoms" must have shell structure because they are "atoms" and reciprocally so since the particles are mirror images and the "atom" can exist for a short period. The electron and the positron must both exhibit shells through the invocation of symmetry. If electron-positron "atoms" can absorb photons, and they can, so will single electrons... but the wavelength must be pretty short... but still longer than in Hydrogen Atoms. You may conjecture that an isolated electron may have a virtual positron surrounding it for a "Heisenberg" amount of time. In this exceedingly short time an electron will certainly have shells. Why does this additional "particle" appear then?... well obviously because of the approach of the photon "provokes" the structure in space at its resonant frequency through "mirrors". "Chicken or egg" situation... It does not matter which in the end, this spatial cavity structure will affect the outcome. The photon will be absorbed and then it will be re-emitted with a changed frequency... up or down with the electron recoiling.
Compton and Inverse Compton Scattering
Wikipedia: Positronium

Cheers
jal
Hi everyone!
I found the following. It could be of interest to the more advanced readers.

http://www.uni-muenster.de/Physik.KP/anrep...ep97/chap5.html
Collisions of Cooled and Polarized Sodium Atoms
5.3 Development of New Types of Electron Cyclotron Resonance Ion Sources

Figure 4a shows the projections of the electron density of ECRIS I (E012 - mode) for the time window 900ns < T < 1 µs. The highest electron density is found in the region of  B just below  Bres on a hexagone around the z-axis which touches  Bres at the corners and which along the z-axis is a continuous band of high density wound in loops at both ends, also defined by  B just below  Bres or touching it. In the region of Bmin the density is very low. These are very intriguing and surprising results which shed new light on the behaviour and operation of this standard type of ECRIS

jal
janrinze
Hi Good Elf,

I must admit that your explanation about EM and photons regarding aerials (antennas) is very thorough and aligns perfectly with my knowledge. I have not been able to express this like you have and I hope that LL can 'see' its value.

The soap bubble analogy is intriguing. I noticed that you show equi-potentials as bubbles. This is a bit hard to understand this step in reasoning. If indeed the energy is quantized we should see a kind of staircase like step function related to the encapsulated individual 'bubbles'.
To keep with the bubble analogy, the membrane of the bubble can be seen as a single 'event' spread out over space-time. Any contact with such a bubble would make it burst but inverse to 'real' bubble collapse, the bubble membrane is being 'drained' and at the far opposite point of the bubble the membrane becomes too thin to hold and breaks. Essentially collapsing towards the draining point and vanishing. The entire membrane is now converted at the draining point. Something should prevent the bubble from being drained at two places simultaneously..

As for the usage of imaginary numbers with EM, this was all before Heaviside started the use of vector calculus on the Maxwell equations. In fact the imaginary numbers with electronics have not the same meaning as Maxwell used it in EM. I do agree that all wave functions in QM are complex wave functions but we need to keep in mind that with EM the real part is the electric field and the imaginary part is the magnetic field. Since the change in one results in the change in the other there are no particles necessary to sustain an EM wave.

I think I am deviating from the subject here but it is very nice to see your input on the thread as being able to properly define a common ground.

Can the bubble analogy be useful in explaining interference?

Jan Rinze.
Confused2
Hmmmm .. am I being 'got at' here. Hiss. About 25 years ago there was a craze for CB radios in the UK - one tiny problemette was that they were illegal and very hard to get hold of. C2 solution - take a cheap car radio and build a CB transmitter and receiver into it. Sooo.. theory aside.. I have designed, built and manufactured transmitters. Cackle. Also repaired many more different types. Cackle. Loaded ordinary car aerials for 27Mhz TX/RX .. been there, done that, and more. Cackle. As well as a fair bit of circuit analysis. Cackle. Hiss. Cackle. Far be it from me to object when years of theory, practice and experience are discarded in favour of an 'idea'. Hiss. Spit. Bitter? Twisted? Nooo nooo nooo, not I. Hiss. Spit. With a pi-tank you can match anything to anything - what do these guys know? - how could they know? Cackle. Spit. Cackle. But I don't know enough about QM so I had best say nothing. Except AAAAARGH.
janrinze
Hi C2,

As Feynman nicely put it, those who claim to understand QM probably don't understand it at all..

as for the aerial being a resistor. This is opposed to being a perfect conductor. I guess what you mean is that in electronical terms the aerial can be seen as a sine wave voltage source which is connected to a load (the rest of the radio).
Hence it becomes a load in respect to the EM wave.

connected to a transmitter, the environment is a load and the aerial is just like a 'connector' interfacing with the environment. From the point of view of a transmitter the aerial looks like a load now.

If nothing would be connected to the aerial it would act like a 'mirror' reflecting the wave since it will not be dissipated.

I don't think we're trying to get at you in any way though. Hopefully the remarks from your last post are not all that serious.

We are all very much open to ideas i.m.h.o. Maybe we're just not the best socially skilled people around..

Jan Rinze.

P.S. the main part of my knowledge of EM waves comes from 'Lorain Corson Lorain' Electromegnetic fields and waves. third edition. 1988. during my phisics studies.. I also have built fm transmitters and radios way before i studied physics. I learnt then (before studying) the resonant circuit after the aerial is much more important than the length of the aerial..
Confused2
Hi Janrinze et al,
QUOTE
Maybe we're just not the best socially skilled people around.

No, you're fine. The frustration is all with myself and my lack of knowledge.
The point about aerial matching is (I think) important.
The output of a transmitter is normally matched to 50 ohms. The cable is usually a match to 50ohm and is effectively (theoretically and nearly practically) lossloss. If there is any reactive component in the response of the aerial then you will get energy reflected back into the output stage. When the aerial is perfectly matched to 50 ohms it must be radiating all the power that went into it because there is nowhere else for it to go - and it behaves as a 50ohm resistor V=I x 50 .. but instead of getting hot it radiates EM at (in this case) a single frequency. I repeat (for emphasis) .. radiated because there is nowhere else for it to go. The radiation pattern of a randomly chosen aerial can be a bit wild .. but all the power goes out.. none is lost, there is no mechanism in space for it to get lost in.
Best wishes,
-C2.

Laserlight
Hi GE and All,

That again, was a thoughtful response. I'm not sure where some of it came from
as you brought up issues that presented arguments that I did not address/claim
which somewhat misrepresented my arguments and took them in a different
direction. But I will not belabor the points.

In any case, I have a question which I will try to present as a situation for your
analysis/commentary/explanation.

Here is the situation:
(I am using arbitrary numbers for the sake of illustration)

We have a fixed antenna, and we initially apply a fixed frequency to it at 10 watts
of power.

It will radiate an EM waveform in the form of RF sinewave photons periodically at
our desired frequency. Let's say that we receive this transmitted signal at
an antenna located 1 km away and we have an O-scope attached to the antenna
circuit that is measuring the arriving signal amplitude. Let's say the measured
sinewave voltage is 10 microvolts at our fixed frequency.

Now, we increase the current power output to our transmitting antenna to 10,000 watts, while
keeping the frequency the same. Now our o-scope at the receiving end still shows the
same sinewave frequency, but the amplitude of the signal is now reading
10 millivolts (10,000 microvolts) applied to the antenna circuit.

What is this indicating to us? The frequency hasn't changed, but the amplitude
of the frequency has changed. There is more energy developed/transmitted in
each wave cycle. The intensity of the wave energy has increased.

Please comment. Anyone else may also comment.

LL
Laserlight
C2,

I think you have an excellent grasp of the issues. Why the frustration?

I think of the antenna as a "transformer" that needs to match the impedance
between the output driver section of the transmitter to space in order to perfectly
couple the RF energy without incuring losses in either direction. Ok, maybe
a simplification.....

LL
Confused2
Hi LL,

Thank you for your most kind comment.
Excellent question.
May I propose that the test be conducted with a storage scope used in single shot mode .. it kind of makes clearer when we're looking at the 'right-way-up' photons and the 'upside-down' photons .. or whatever it is. You approve?

Best wishes -C2.
Laserlight
Hi C2,

The type of scope probably is not important as long as the amplitude of the
wave can be measured and recorded. It's been many years since I last used
a scope, so I will defer to those with more recent experience.

My most recent experience is with variable power output 13.56Mhz RF generators
of various sizes driving across 50 ohm RF cables to a RF matching network and a
"showerhead plate" antenna or a wide hexode "antenna" to a plasma load. Our
RF power output ranged up to 3KW.

The matching network had auto closed loop feedback to match the impedance
between the generator and the various chemistries and low pressure plasmas we
used for processing. Our typical plasma load was around 7 ohms.

The internal tuning adjustments were a variable capacitor and a widely spaced
coil inductor with an adjustable field interruption blade for changing the
RF field inductance. Very simple and sweet design.

You lost me with the right side up vs upside down photons. biggrin.gif What about the
circularly polarized ones? rolleyes.gif

Regards,
LL
Confused2
QUOTE (LL+)
You lost me with the right side up vs upside down photons.  What about the circularly polarized ones? 


When the photons are coming in 'heads-up' the litle bright bit on the scope goes up smile.gif .
When the photons are coming in 'heads-down' the litle bright bit on the scope goes down unsure.gif .
It follows naturally that circularly polarised photons will make the little bright spot go round and round wacko.gif .
Best wishes -C2.
Laserlight
Hi Jan, C2, GE, TRoc, Montec, et al,

QUOTE
The soap bubble analogy is intriguing. I noticed that you show equi-potentials as bubbles. This is a bit hard to understand this step in reasoning. If indeed the energy is quantized we should see a kind of staircase like step function related to the encapsulated individual 'bubbles'.
To keep with the bubble analogy, the membrane of the bubble can be seen as a single 'event' spread out over space-time. Any contact with such a bubble would make it burst but inverse to 'real' bubble collapse, the bubble membrane is being 'drained' and at the far opposite point of the bubble the membrane becomes too thin to hold and breaks. Essentially collapsing towards the draining point and vanishing. The entire membrane is now converted at the draining point. Something should prevent the bubble from being drained at two places simultaneously..


Let's view this analogy from another perspective, outside of the box.

We have a cavity (the ring). We have an EM field (the soap film). We have
a fixed amount of energy which represents the photon (the wind force).

If the minimum amount of wind energy to blow a full bubble represents the
energy of a single photon, then you can repeat blowing individual photons all
day long at regular periodic intervals. So, in this minimalist case an enclosed
bubble is a closed energy system of finite bounds with repeatable fixed stresses.
The bubbles will all be the same size because they have the same energy
content. No problem, these are individual photons.

Now, same set up, but we blow for the same time interval but with higher
force (more photons). The bubble gets bigger in the same amount of time, it
encompasses a larger volume. The bubble contains the energy of more than one
photon, yet it is a single timed entity event. It is no longer a single photon.

The total energy exists within the same time envelope but can it be divided?

If instead of a bubble we use a balloon, then the energy trapped in the balloon can
be tapped in more than one location or time to generate (release) other
individual photons that can be separated from the original time event.


Agree or disagree? Counterpoint arguments or comments welcomed.
LL
janrinze
Hi LL,

the bubble analogy fails to address the wave aspect..
like in the 2 slit experiment it should be able to show interference.

Jan Rinze.
Laserlight
Hi Jan,


QUOTE
the bubble analogy fails to address the wave aspect..
like in the 2 slit experiment it should be able to show interference.


In this case, the energy of two (or more) bubbles within the same time envelope
can be considered as a superposition of wave energies since they increase the
amplitude of the wave as represented by the size of the bubble.

My point being that wave amplitude is intensity, and intensity has to do with the
number of photons existing in the same space at the same time. Energy density.
A single photon has a fixed energy amplitude, any higher wave amplitude above
this amount represents the presence of more energy, thus more photons.

They are phase and time superposed and the wave contains more energy.

Agree or disagree?
LL
janrinze
Hi LL,

if you refer to the wave consisting of multiple quanta, even in the same place, I agree.

There is however the problem that a wave can spread over an enomous area.

are you suggesting that they line up in a row along the wave front?

Jan Rinze.
Laserlight
Jan,

QUOTE
if you refer to the wave consisting of multiple quanta, even in the same place, I agree.

There is however the problem that a wave can spread over an enomous area.

are you suggesting that they line up in a row along the wave front?


They are synchronously time and phase aligned (superposed) so it seems that
they must be "absorbed" at some detector simultaneously, but that energy can be
divided/separated back to the individual photon quantum energy thru down
conversion, which could take several forms such as a voltage divider network arrangement.

Comments? Anyone, please feel free to develop or tear this idea apart.
LL
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