QUOTE (Laserlight+)
IMO, the "answer" is sublte and complex but originates at the slits. The recent individual experimental evidence is very compelling and when summed together paints a fairly clear picture.
Perhaps we should try to agree what does and does not affect the result of the DSE.
1/ Distance between slits
2/ Distance to screen
3/ Wavelength of light used
4/ Slit material
5/ Temperature
6/ Gas pressure
7/ Time of year
8/ ?
Since we can predict where the bars will be by using only 1/, 2/ and 3/ and do not need to know 4/..7/ .. I fail to see how/why you feel they can possibly be the root cause of the observed effect.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Perhaps we should try to agree what does and does not affect the result of the DSE.
1/ Distance between slits
2/ Distance to screen
3/ Wavelength of light used
4/ Slit material
5/ Temperature
6/ Gas pressure
7/ Time of year
8/ ?
Since we can predict where the bars will be by using only 1/, 2/ and 3/ and do not need to know 4/..7/ .. I fail to see how/why you feel they can possibly be the root cause of the observed effect.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi C2,
You forgot slit width and "orientation". As we have all agreed, the factors that you
mentioned all follow the geometrical mathematics. I think that we are still not
all in agreement as to where the actual diffraction signal mixing is taking place
and why.
Regards,
LL
You forgot slit width and "orientation". As we have all agreed, the factors that you
mentioned all follow the geometrical mathematics. I think that we are still not
all in agreement as to where the actual diffraction signal mixing is taking place
and why.
Regards,
LL
GE,
There you go again.
Let's just say that we interpret the same information from different, diametrically
opposed, perspectives.
I will not be drawn into a "mine's bigger than yours" type of discussion as it is
a waste of both of our, and the board's, time.
LL
QUOTE
I doubt if I could at this rate. We need to use the same language first. It seems that I can't communicate a single concept to you at the moment. I appear to be "pitching way over your head". I apologize for that but maybe we are both becoming a bit "overwrought" and losing patience again. I am not making any headway here.
There you go again.
Let's just say that we interpret the same information from different, diametrically
opposed, perspectives.
I will not be drawn into a "mine's bigger than yours" type of discussion as it is
a waste of both of our, and the board's, time.
LL
Hello all
I would think that what ever "mechanism" generates knife edge refraction would also play a part in single slit diffraction. If we understand what this mechanism is then I believe that double slit and diffraction gratings results could be analyzed as to what is happening at the slit and what is happening at the screen.
Just a little steering nudge here.

I would think that what ever "mechanism" generates knife edge refraction would also play a part in single slit diffraction. If we understand what this mechanism is then I believe that double slit and diffraction gratings results could be analyzed as to what is happening at the slit and what is happening at the screen.
Just a little steering nudge here.
Hello all
Knife edge refraction is also called edge diffraction.

This is the pattern I am talking about.

Knife edge refraction is also called edge diffraction.

This is the pattern I am talking about.
Hi LL,Montec, jal et al,
QUOTE (LL+)
I think that we are still not all in agreement as to where the actual diffraction signal mixing is taking place and why.
Montec.. your nudge is noted
.
I claim that if you replace the screen with a device that can only see one slit at a time then the device will not 'see' any interference (except that due to diffraction of course). If you only receive light from the one slit then it would make no difference if the other slit is open or blocked. A fair test?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Montec.. your nudge is noted
I claim that if you replace the screen with a device that can only see one slit at a time then the device will not 'see' any interference (except that due to diffraction of course). If you only receive light from the one slit then it would make no difference if the other slit is open or blocked. A fair test?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hello Confused2, et all.
Here are some more pictures.

Razor blade corner. Opaque edge
Notice the pattern extends outward from the edge of the razor blade.

Opaque disk
Notice the spot at the center.
These two facts imply that the patterns go both directions from the edge. They also imply that the intensity of light at any one spot is the sum of all wavelets that reach it. The sensitivity of the detector determines what is seen.

Here are some more pictures.

Razor blade corner. Opaque edge
Notice the pattern extends outward from the edge of the razor blade.

Opaque disk
Notice the spot at the center.
These two facts imply that the patterns go both directions from the edge. They also imply that the intensity of light at any one spot is the sum of all wavelets that reach it. The sensitivity of the detector determines what is seen.
Hi Montec,
Going back to my post here http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=183204
A/ Let's assume a photon is emitted from somewhere on the bulb filament at t0, x0,y0.
B/ A narrow band filter is used as an attenuator .. I don't think it needs to have any other function.
C/ It gets through the green filter .. you can add in an extra step if you feel this might affect the result.
D/ Meets a single slit at t1,x1,y0
E/ Path diverges (Huygens)
F/ Photon now meets the pair of slits.. keeping it symmetrical for simplicity..
G/ Slit A at t2,x2,y2 and slit B at t2',x2,-y2
At step E we require that the light is spread out .. which can be interpreted as 'Huygens' or diffraction .. both should give the same answer.. we can check this if you like.
The beam from a slit gets wider as the slit narrows so to get the 'beam' wide enough requires a fairly narrow slit .. hence it might be convenient to borrow the analysis from http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...pt/mulslid.html or something similar.
Similarly at F we require 'Huygens'/diffraction to spread the light enough so that light from both slits falls onto a reasonable area of the screen.
If you look at the results here..
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif .. the single slit pattern is that of 'normal' diffraction (itself partly an interference effect).
I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with your edge diffraction .. just that the slits for which we have the results are two edges pretty close together .. the analysis is similar .. but twice over. For what it's worth I've a feeling Young himself might well have originally observed the effect as the result of single edge diffraction.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Going back to my post here http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=183204
QUOTE (me+)
A/ Let's assume a photon is emitted from somewhere on the bulb filament at t0, x0,y0.
B/ A narrow band filter is used as an attenuator .. I don't think it needs to have any other function.
C/ It gets through the green filter .. you can add in an extra step if you feel this might affect the result.
D/ Meets a single slit at t1,x1,y0
E/ Path diverges (Huygens)
F/ Photon now meets the pair of slits.. keeping it symmetrical for simplicity..
G/ Slit A at t2,x2,y2 and slit B at t2',x2,-y2
At step E we require that the light is spread out .. which can be interpreted as 'Huygens' or diffraction .. both should give the same answer.. we can check this if you like.
The beam from a slit gets wider as the slit narrows so to get the 'beam' wide enough requires a fairly narrow slit .. hence it might be convenient to borrow the analysis from http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...pt/mulslid.html or something similar.
Similarly at F we require 'Huygens'/diffraction to spread the light enough so that light from both slits falls onto a reasonable area of the screen.
If you look at the results here..
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif .. the single slit pattern is that of 'normal' diffraction (itself partly an interference effect).
I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with your edge diffraction .. just that the slits for which we have the results are two edges pretty close together .. the analysis is similar .. but twice over. For what it's worth I've a feeling Young himself might well have originally observed the effect as the result of single edge diffraction.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hello Confused2
If a knife edge produces a pattern and a slit is just two knife edges then why don't we see two patterns on the screen. For a double slit we have four knife edges and yet we see only one pattern. Yet the patterns for a knife edge, single slit, double slit, and diffraction grating are all different. The patterns are all affects from the same "mechanism" that causes edge diffraction. This "mechanism" that causes light to change direction is what I am interested in. What happens at the screen can be modeled by Huygens, Fresnel diffraction, and/or QM.

If a knife edge produces a pattern and a slit is just two knife edges then why don't we see two patterns on the screen. For a double slit we have four knife edges and yet we see only one pattern. Yet the patterns for a knife edge, single slit, double slit, and diffraction grating are all different. The patterns are all affects from the same "mechanism" that causes edge diffraction. This "mechanism" that causes light to change direction is what I am interested in. What happens at the screen can be modeled by Huygens, Fresnel diffraction, and/or QM.
Hi Montec, C2, TRoc, GE, and All,
Did you read the paper linked by Neil? There is excellent experimental
evidence there regarding SPP, IMO.
I'm still reading the Aether site that Jal posted. I may get "religion". I'm early
into it but WOW! I cannot argue with some of the logic presented there even
though I must really contemplate the information and weigh some things that
I may not fully understand or completely agree with yet. It has "answered"
(maybe not fully) some theoretical questions, that we have been arguing about
for months and for which there have not been complete satisfactory examples
or conceptualizations put forward. Very compelling stuff!
I would like to discuss the topics as they each offer a theoretical path that I
think we can all identify with and apply to the DSE and other contentious
physics topics that we have previously discussed.
Regards,
LL
Did you read the paper linked by Neil? There is excellent experimental
evidence there regarding SPP, IMO.
I'm still reading the Aether site that Jal posted. I may get "religion". I'm early
into it but WOW! I cannot argue with some of the logic presented there even
though I must really contemplate the information and weigh some things that
I may not fully understand or completely agree with yet. It has "answered"
(maybe not fully) some theoretical questions, that we have been arguing about
for months and for which there have not been complete satisfactory examples
or conceptualizations put forward. Very compelling stuff!
I would like to discuss the topics as they each offer a theoretical path that I
think we can all identify with and apply to the DSE and other contentious
physics topics that we have previously discussed.
Regards,
LL
Hi Montec,
Your pictures of the razor blade and the opaque disk nicely illustrate the energy
dissipation of the ISL and 1/2 wavelength interference "standing" waves.
"Nudge" a little harder!
Thanks,
LL
Your pictures of the razor blade and the opaque disk nicely illustrate the energy
dissipation of the ISL and 1/2 wavelength interference "standing" waves.
"Nudge" a little harder!
Thanks,
LL
Hi Montec,
I'd suggest starting with Huygens .. follow the link from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife-edge_effect . When you get to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huygens%27_principle .. I have to admit I have absolutely no idea why the article dives off into Fourier transforms .. as far as I can see it obscures far more than it reveals. There is a catch with Huygens .. it doesn't really work in two dimensions .. apparently it's fine in 3D.
From there I think hyperphysics is better. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...ffracon.html#c1
The sum of the two razor edges is the single slit diffraction pattern. The result I've posted many times just uses the middle hump in the middle of the diffraction pattern .. the ripples would be there if the scan was extended further out. The sum of the two humps gives the effect we're trying to explain.
Section I/ of my analysis here http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=183204 uses Pythagoras to calculate the path difference from the slits A,B to a point on the screen. Because the slits (A,B) are much further apart than the edges of the individual slits are from each other the dominant effect is the path difference from the point x,y to the slits (A,B). I could do a phase addition to calculate the relative intensity at any point but it looks dreadful in the notation I've used so far. Ideally we have to incorporate the full analysis of the output from the individual slits just to show it makes no difference. I can probably do this but I'll have to switch to e^(ix) notation which some people might not like. I've found a calculator applet that can do it but it's rather hard (for me) to get to grips with so no result as yet.
If anyone ever agreed (understood?) what I'm trying to show then it would get us to the point of understanding what is REALLY the problem. So far I'm on my own with little hope of success. Please forgive me if I seem a little desperate at times.
Best wishes,
-C2.
I'd suggest starting with Huygens .. follow the link from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife-edge_effect . When you get to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huygens%27_principle .. I have to admit I have absolutely no idea why the article dives off into Fourier transforms .. as far as I can see it obscures far more than it reveals. There is a catch with Huygens .. it doesn't really work in two dimensions .. apparently it's fine in 3D.
From there I think hyperphysics is better. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...ffracon.html#c1
The sum of the two razor edges is the single slit diffraction pattern. The result I've posted many times just uses the middle hump in the middle of the diffraction pattern .. the ripples would be there if the scan was extended further out. The sum of the two humps gives the effect we're trying to explain.
Section I/ of my analysis here http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=183204 uses Pythagoras to calculate the path difference from the slits A,B to a point on the screen. Because the slits (A,B) are much further apart than the edges of the individual slits are from each other the dominant effect is the path difference from the point x,y to the slits (A,B). I could do a phase addition to calculate the relative intensity at any point but it looks dreadful in the notation I've used so far. Ideally we have to incorporate the full analysis of the output from the individual slits just to show it makes no difference. I can probably do this but I'll have to switch to e^(ix) notation which some people might not like. I've found a calculator applet that can do it but it's rather hard (for me) to get to grips with so no result as yet.
If anyone ever agreed (understood?) what I'm trying to show then it would get us to the point of understanding what is REALLY the problem. So far I'm on my own with little hope of success. Please forgive me if I seem a little desperate at times.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi Montec (again),
There's a ripple tank to play with here http://www.echalk.co.uk/Science/Physics/ri...Tank/ripple.htm . Select Double slit from somewhere. The counts in the result here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif are the same as the amplitude of the wave .. ie where there is no wave (the points of destructive interference) are where there are no counts recorded.
http://www.echalk.co.uk/Science/Physics/ri...Tank/ripple.htm
If you add two vectors that are nearly in the same direction (eg one from each slit) you can resolve each vector into a vector in the direction of the result and a much smaller one. The vectors are time varying .. it's all there in the ripple tank. Maybe when I get the calculator thing working it will all be much clearer.
Best wishes,
-C2.
There's a ripple tank to play with here http://www.echalk.co.uk/Science/Physics/ri...Tank/ripple.htm . Select Double slit from somewhere. The counts in the result here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif are the same as the amplitude of the wave .. ie where there is no wave (the points of destructive interference) are where there are no counts recorded.
http://www.echalk.co.uk/Science/Physics/ri...Tank/ripple.htm
If you add two vectors that are nearly in the same direction (eg one from each slit) you can resolve each vector into a vector in the direction of the result and a much smaller one. The vectors are time varying .. it's all there in the ripple tank. Maybe when I get the calculator thing working it will all be much clearer.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi C2,

For your pleasure....
http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_Michelson.htm
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
as far as I can see it obscures far more than it reveals. There is a catch with Huygens .. it doesn't really work in two dimensions .. apparently it's fine in 3D.

For your pleasure....
http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_Michelson.htm
Regards,
LL
Hello LL, et al.
The links provided by Neil have optical switches implied in them.

The links provided by Neil have optical switches implied in them.
Hello Confused2, et al.
Would this qualify for a two dimension result of Huygens.

Crossed slits

The ripple tank animations are great (fun too) for showing the resultant wave patterns but the still don't tell me how a plane wave turns into a spherical wave by just going through the slit.
Would this qualify for a two dimension result of Huygens.

Crossed slits
The ripple tank animations are great (fun too) for showing the resultant wave patterns but the still don't tell me how a plane wave turns into a spherical wave by just going through the slit.
Hi Montec,
Would this qualify for a two dimension result of Huygens.
?
Clearly 3D. The slit experiment is 3D too .. it's effectively a slice through a 3D 'thing'. The ripple tank has 2D waves that model the slice reasonably well. The applet writer (and water) clearly know how to do Huygens in 2D.
Huygens... best I can do..
Imagine you have a wave in motion
Freeze time (makes it easier)
Pick a point on that wave.
Measure the potential at that point. say A
Reverse that potential -A
If you put the potential -A at that point it would reduce the wave to zero.
Now put potential A back at the point
Unfreeze time.
The wave spreads spherically..
If you do this for every point .. all the time .. you see each point is always a spreading point. On a plane wavefront the spreading is cancelled by the points either side .. remove the points either side .. eg by a slit .. and the points continue spreading but with nothing to cancel out where the original plane wave was stripped away by the slit.
I think John Baez explained why this doesn't work so well in 2 dimensions, maybe some problem resolving vectors. Cornell University Server has been off-line so I can't point you at it (too tired to check now) .. Huygens Baez should work.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Would this qualify for a two dimension result of Huygens.
?
Clearly 3D. The slit experiment is 3D too .. it's effectively a slice through a 3D 'thing'. The ripple tank has 2D waves that model the slice reasonably well. The applet writer (and water) clearly know how to do Huygens in 2D.
Huygens... best I can do..
Imagine you have a wave in motion
Freeze time (makes it easier)
Pick a point on that wave.
Measure the potential at that point. say A
Reverse that potential -A
If you put the potential -A at that point it would reduce the wave to zero.
Now put potential A back at the point
Unfreeze time.
The wave spreads spherically..
If you do this for every point .. all the time .. you see each point is always a spreading point. On a plane wavefront the spreading is cancelled by the points either side .. remove the points either side .. eg by a slit .. and the points continue spreading but with nothing to cancel out where the original plane wave was stripped away by the slit.
I think John Baez explained why this doesn't work so well in 2 dimensions, maybe some problem resolving vectors. Cornell University Server has been off-line so I can't point you at it (too tired to check now) .. Huygens Baez should work.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi Montec,
On a high frequency radar system that I worked on years ago, we used small
baffles that were "helically" staggered to cause phase and timing delays to
an RF frequency linear wavefront. When this circular polarizer was inserted
in front of the "beam" the wave was converted to a circularly polarized wave
so that it could penetrate thru rain and clouds. So it seems plausible that
a similar phase delay/shifting effect could be at work thru a properly
designed/tuned waveguide where the EM fields are distorted/delayed by
resonant field effects.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
The ripple tank animations are great (fun too) for showing the resultant wave patterns but the still don't tell me how a plane wave turns into a spherical wave by just going through the slit.
On a high frequency radar system that I worked on years ago, we used small
baffles that were "helically" staggered to cause phase and timing delays to
an RF frequency linear wavefront. When this circular polarizer was inserted
in front of the "beam" the wave was converted to a circularly polarized wave
so that it could penetrate thru rain and clouds. So it seems plausible that
a similar phase delay/shifting effect could be at work thru a properly
designed/tuned waveguide where the EM fields are distorted/delayed by
resonant field effects.
Regards,
LL
Hi LL,
Well, I guess that you didn't like my joke either. You didn't even wait around for the punch-line.
"It's the weight of the container that goes down, not the weight of the gas"
(a little conservation of humor, anyone?)
All kidding aside (I didn't really think you were suggesting anti-gravity), I think we agree on the one point that I wanted to make.
Man made "vacuum" is not as good as what is found in space. The "natural vacuum" (space) is never entirely free of matter. End result: man-made vacuum has more matter than space, which is never zero.
That's good enough for me!
It looks like the Arago (Fresnel) Spots, and the Cornu Spiral method are back on the table again. Will it be enough? Can it be classically explained?
Stay tuned ...
regards,
T.Roc
Well, I guess that you didn't like my joke either. You didn't even wait around for the punch-line.
"It's the weight of the container that goes down, not the weight of the gas"
All kidding aside (I didn't really think you were suggesting anti-gravity), I think we agree on the one point that I wanted to make.
Man made "vacuum" is not as good as what is found in space. The "natural vacuum" (space) is never entirely free of matter. End result: man-made vacuum has more matter than space, which is never zero.
That's good enough for me!
It looks like the Arago (Fresnel) Spots, and the Cornu Spiral method are back on the table again. Will it be enough? Can it be classically explained?
Stay tuned ...
regards,
T.Roc
OK we're back to whacking individual trees to see if an elephant drops out.
Let's imagine we are forced to consider two crossed slits.
We want to know where we get constructive and destructive interference.
Let us imagine that one slit gives an output with cylindrical symmetry on the x axis
Let us further imagine that the other slit also gives an output with cylindrical symmetry but this time on the on the y axis.
We know that where the difference in path length is 0 or an integral number of wavelengths we'll see a bright bit.
So we look at where these paths with cylindrical symmetry are going to meet with a path length difference either 0 or an integral number of wavelengths. The cylindrical symmetry on the x and the cylindrical symmetry on the y axis gives a sort of grid. .. with bright bits where the path length difference is either 0 or an integral number of wavelengths. The points meeting the condition for constructive interference lie at the intersections of these cylindrically symmetrical paths. So we get series of bright bits ( constructive interference) at these intersections (aka 'dots') . More explanation required?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Let's imagine we are forced to consider two crossed slits.
We want to know where we get constructive and destructive interference.
Let us imagine that one slit gives an output with cylindrical symmetry on the x axis
Let us further imagine that the other slit also gives an output with cylindrical symmetry but this time on the on the y axis.
We know that where the difference in path length is 0 or an integral number of wavelengths we'll see a bright bit.
So we look at where these paths with cylindrical symmetry are going to meet with a path length difference either 0 or an integral number of wavelengths. The cylindrical symmetry on the x and the cylindrical symmetry on the y axis gives a sort of grid. .. with bright bits where the path length difference is either 0 or an integral number of wavelengths. The points meeting the condition for constructive interference lie at the intersections of these cylindrically symmetrical paths. So we get series of bright bits ( constructive interference) at these intersections (aka 'dots') . More explanation required?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi Laserlight,
From what I am reading I see you believe in Aether and contraction of bodies in space without contraction of the space. Seems to me you are revisiting some pretty awful 19th Century Physics. Still its your choice.
From what I am reading I see you believe in Aether and contraction of bodies in space without contraction of the space. Seems to me you are revisiting some pretty awful 19th Century Physics. Still its your choice.
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
For your pleasure....
http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_Michelson.htm
Regards,
LL
http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_Michelson.htm
Regards,
LL
The illustrations are fine but the conclusions are bogus. But it is no point pointing to experiment it would seem.
Cheers
Cheers
Hi Good Elf,
The site is compelling. It is using a 21st century approach to 20th century physics
models and providing "solutions" to them. Just read chapter 1... I'll bet that
you will continue, just out of curiousity and fascination. I'm not saying it holds
all the answers but if you believe in "vibrating strings", this approach seems
more plausible and makes more sense. It might even open doors to your
extra dimensions. No foam! LOL.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
Seems to me you are revisiting some pretty awful 19th Century Physics. Still its your choice.
The site is compelling. It is using a 21st century approach to 20th century physics
models and providing "solutions" to them. Just read chapter 1... I'll bet that
you will continue, just out of curiousity and fascination. I'm not saying it holds
all the answers but if you believe in "vibrating strings", this approach seems
more plausible and makes more sense. It might even open doors to your
extra dimensions. No foam! LOL.
Regards,
LL
Hi all,
C2, Montec, LL, GE, Jal, Aero, and anybody else..
Here is a VERY basic, "tried and true" experiment, which was the foundation for many other key experiments, theories, etc. It is "do it yourself" qualified, and is, perhaps, the BEST KNOWN "phenomenon" in Science. Very simple "refraction" method is used to explain.

What is WRONG with this picture (the explanation) , and WHY?
How can we relate the qualities to the DSE?
ciao,
T.Roc
C2, Montec, LL, GE, Jal, Aero, and anybody else..
Here is a VERY basic, "tried and true" experiment, which was the foundation for many other key experiments, theories, etc. It is "do it yourself" qualified, and is, perhaps, the BEST KNOWN "phenomenon" in Science. Very simple "refraction" method is used to explain.

What is WRONG with this picture (the explanation) , and WHY?
How can we relate the qualities to the DSE?
ciao,
T.Roc
Hello Confuded2, et al.
Your explanation of what happens in a cross slit diffraction pattern is accurate. How and why still need to be explained. The only clues we have are that the pattern is influenced by both the frequency of the incident light and the width of the slits.
The grid pattern with spots at the intersections tells us that constructive interference will increase the intensity/'wave amplitude' at the detector. With a highly sensitive detector "single photons" will still produce this pattern. This sensitivity may be from a "time accumulation" device or a "pre-energized" device. A "pre-energized" device uses a bias to adjust the sensitivity of the detector. This allows an emitted wavelet (wave with a photon of energy) to expand/propagate and still be detected even though the energy at the point of detection is not the sum total of the emitted wavelet.
There may be a minimum amount of energy that a wavelet can have in order to overcome the work function of propagation in free space. At this point the wavelet can be viewed as a particle for all intent and purposes.
Your explanation of what happens in a cross slit diffraction pattern is accurate. How and why still need to be explained. The only clues we have are that the pattern is influenced by both the frequency of the incident light and the width of the slits.
The grid pattern with spots at the intersections tells us that constructive interference will increase the intensity/'wave amplitude' at the detector. With a highly sensitive detector "single photons" will still produce this pattern. This sensitivity may be from a "time accumulation" device or a "pre-energized" device. A "pre-energized" device uses a bias to adjust the sensitivity of the detector. This allows an emitted wavelet (wave with a photon of energy) to expand/propagate and still be detected even though the energy at the point of detection is not the sum total of the emitted wavelet.
There may be a minimum amount of energy that a wavelet can have in order to overcome the work function of propagation in free space. At this point the wavelet can be viewed as a particle for all intent and purposes.
Hi TRoc, Montec et al,
At the bottom of the wiki entry for Huygens is a link to his original paper .. Treatise on light .. download from here http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14725 .. it might be worth going direct to this and cutting out the middleman.
Montec .. any idea that we may be making progress doesn't seem to last very long. It is either the wrong colour of progress, insufficiently dimensional progress or inadequate in some other way.
We have been looking at this experiment here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...periments.shtml because it is reasonably well documented, includes a set of results and if all else fails we could try emailing them for extra data (or even to tell us how it works). Unless you have a crossed slits source with the same advantages could I encourage you to concentrate on this parallel slit experiment .. the principle remains unchanged.
At the bottom of the wiki entry for Huygens is a link to his original paper .. Treatise on light .. download from here http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14725 .. it might be worth going direct to this and cutting out the middleman.
Montec .. any idea that we may be making progress doesn't seem to last very long. It is either the wrong colour of progress, insufficiently dimensional progress or inadequate in some other way.
We have been looking at this experiment here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...periments.shtml because it is reasonably well documented, includes a set of results and if all else fails we could try emailing them for extra data (or even to tell us how it works). Unless you have a crossed slits source with the same advantages could I encourage you to concentrate on this parallel slit experiment .. the principle remains unchanged.
QUOTE (Montec+)
Your explanation of what happens in a cross slit diffraction pattern is accurate.
I seem to be the only one who thinks this is important. IMHO can immediately discard any theory that does not successfully predict where the bright and dark fringes will be. No theory has yet been able to give a correct prediction of fringe spacing so we haven't really needed to look at the prediction of actual intensity/photon count.
We have data and results for a DSE .. are you happy to use it?
Best wishes,
-C2.
I seem to be the only one who thinks this is important. IMHO can immediately discard any theory that does not successfully predict where the bright and dark fringes will be. No theory has yet been able to give a correct prediction of fringe spacing so we haven't really needed to look at the prediction of actual intensity/photon count.
We have data and results for a DSE .. are you happy to use it?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi all,
LL is right. You can also respond with "what is right" about this picture, and the classical explanation of the refraction.
I don't ever mean to say "green doesn't belong" here, just that, because of the nature of representing phenomena pictorially, we gain some, and we lose some. Without the proper disclosures, students can easily go "off track".
Showing the colors "inside" the prism is "wrong" (because it is not observable), but does show the velocity changes taking place because of refraction. So, it is instructive.
Showing colors "exiting" (as if in the air) is wrong as well, because we need the light to "reflect" off of something in order to be able to observe it. If we do this "on tabletop", as is very common, then we CAN see the colors "in flight" (not really, again, not in the air) reflected off of the table. In this case (as I showed before in true Photograph), you DO NOT see green until the TWO SEPARATE "beams" come into the same space. Call it what you will, but green was not there, until that junction.

Please, describe what you see. There is still more. When I said "wrong", it should have had a disclaimer. This disclaimer is 99% of the reason that we have so many problems agreeing on things in this thread.
We have Quantum Mechanics,
and we have
Classical Physics.
We can not "mix" the two, without solving this great problem. This implies "something new". The simple explanations that very adequately describe/predict the DSE, and the "rainbow" from a prism are "classical". If we take these solutions to other areas, they fail. They are not "wrong" in the normal sense.
So, a very well reasoned response to my question, would couch the terms of "right and wrong" only as understood from the opposite perspective. That is, we usually have "classical" explanations given for these things, so what is wrong from the QM perspective. And (if you agree that QM is "not perfect"), then you could state problems with the QM postulates, as perceived by the classical view. (IE. they WORK)
regards,
T.Roc
LL is right. You can also respond with "what is right" about this picture, and the classical explanation of the refraction.
I don't ever mean to say "green doesn't belong" here, just that, because of the nature of representing phenomena pictorially, we gain some, and we lose some. Without the proper disclosures, students can easily go "off track".
Showing the colors "inside" the prism is "wrong" (because it is not observable), but does show the velocity changes taking place because of refraction. So, it is instructive.
Showing colors "exiting" (as if in the air) is wrong as well, because we need the light to "reflect" off of something in order to be able to observe it. If we do this "on tabletop", as is very common, then we CAN see the colors "in flight" (not really, again, not in the air) reflected off of the table. In this case (as I showed before in true Photograph), you DO NOT see green until the TWO SEPARATE "beams" come into the same space. Call it what you will, but green was not there, until that junction.

Please, describe what you see. There is still more. When I said "wrong", it should have had a disclaimer. This disclaimer is 99% of the reason that we have so many problems agreeing on things in this thread.
We have Quantum Mechanics,
and we have
Classical Physics.
We can not "mix" the two, without solving this great problem. This implies "something new". The simple explanations that very adequately describe/predict the DSE, and the "rainbow" from a prism are "classical". If we take these solutions to other areas, they fail. They are not "wrong" in the normal sense.
So, a very well reasoned response to my question, would couch the terms of "right and wrong" only as understood from the opposite perspective. That is, we usually have "classical" explanations given for these things, so what is wrong from the QM perspective. And (if you agree that QM is "not perfect"), then you could state problems with the QM postulates, as perceived by the classical view. (IE. they WORK)
regards,
T.Roc
Hi TRoc, Montec et al,
At the bottom of the wiki entry for Huygens is a link to his original paper .. Treatise on light .. download from here http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14725 .. it might be worth going direct to this and cutting out the middleman.
Montec .. any idea that we may be making progress doesn't seem to last very long. It is either the wrong colour of progress, insufficiently dimensional progress or inadequate in some other way.
We have been looking at this experiment here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...periments.shtml because it is reasonably well documented, includes a set of results and if all else fails we could try emailing them for extra data (or even to tell us how it works). Unless you have a crossed slits source with the same advantages could I encourage you to concentrate on this parallel slit experiment .. the principle remains unchanged.
At the bottom of the wiki entry for Huygens is a link to his original paper .. Treatise on light .. download from here http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14725 .. it might be worth going direct to this and cutting out the middleman.
Montec .. any idea that we may be making progress doesn't seem to last very long. It is either the wrong colour of progress, insufficiently dimensional progress or inadequate in some other way.
We have been looking at this experiment here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...periments.shtml because it is reasonably well documented, includes a set of results and if all else fails we could try emailing them for extra data (or even to tell us how it works). Unless you have a crossed slits source with the same advantages could I encourage you to concentrate on this parallel slit experiment .. the principle remains unchanged.
QUOTE (Montec+)
Your explanation of what happens in a cross slit diffraction pattern is accurate.
I seem to be the only one who thinks this is important. IMHO we can immediately discard any theory that does not successfully predict where the bright and dark fringes will be. No theory has yet been able to give a correct prediction of fringe spacing so we haven't really needed to look at the prediction of actual intensity/photon count.
We have data and results for a DSE .. are you happy to use it?
Best wishes,
-C2.
TRoc ... I will try to comment on your post that came up while I was preparing this one.
I seem to be the only one who thinks this is important. IMHO we can immediately discard any theory that does not successfully predict where the bright and dark fringes will be. No theory has yet been able to give a correct prediction of fringe spacing so we haven't really needed to look at the prediction of actual intensity/photon count.
We have data and results for a DSE .. are you happy to use it?
Best wishes,
-C2.
TRoc ... I will try to comment on your post that came up while I was preparing this one.
Hi all,
My comments on LL's post are now "fuzzy"; his comments are gone!
At any rate, I dug up the PHOTO of the prism light. Please, understand the obvious difference between a drawing, or diagram (theory) and a photograph of an actual experiment (data).

PLEASE, if you can not see this clearly, go to the link and see for yourself. There are no tricks here, and no room for arguments.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0...-Prism-FigI.jpg
I consider this to be the MOST IMPORTANT, MOST OVERLOOKED phenomenon in modern Science. Why? I am NOT talking about "colors" here, nor human perception. I am talking about the interaction of light and matter, the validity of the "photon" model, and the foundations of QM. The frequencies are a direct representation of ENERGY.
The BlackBody Spectrum

No green. If anybody else has an explanation, I'd love to hear it.
ciao,
T.Roc
My comments on LL's post are now "fuzzy"; his comments are gone!
At any rate, I dug up the PHOTO of the prism light. Please, understand the obvious difference between a drawing, or diagram (theory) and a photograph of an actual experiment (data).

PLEASE, if you can not see this clearly, go to the link and see for yourself. There are no tricks here, and no room for arguments.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0...-Prism-FigI.jpg
I consider this to be the MOST IMPORTANT, MOST OVERLOOKED phenomenon in modern Science. Why? I am NOT talking about "colors" here, nor human perception. I am talking about the interaction of light and matter, the validity of the "photon" model, and the foundations of QM. The frequencies are a direct representation of ENERGY.
The BlackBody Spectrum

No green. If anybody else has an explanation, I'd love to hear it.
ciao,
T.Roc
QUOTE (TRoc+)
Please, describe what you see.
Of course, this is the most important thing of all..
I see a beam of white light entering from the left, being 'refracted' (I'll maybe come back to that) into the the glass of the prism and being 'refracted' again at the point of exit.
Of course, this is the most important thing of all..
I see a beam of white light entering from the left, being 'refracted' (I'll maybe come back to that) into the the glass of the prism and being 'refracted' again at the point of exit.
QUOTE (TRoc+)
We have Quantum Mechanics,
and we have
Classical Physics.
You suggest there is a problem here and I agree. There is certainly a problem when people discard what they see and invent a 'quantum explanation' that is no longer related to what they see. The quantum explanation of what you see simply explains what you see .. if it doesn't do that then it is not an explanation.
Taking TRoc's point a little further. Let's shine a beam of monochromatic light (frequency =f ) in from the left .. it hits a certain point on the right. We can use Huygens (and the refractive index) to predict where the beam will land. What we detect is made up of packets of energy all given by E=hf.
Let's do the same thing with single photons of energy E=hf. They all hit the same point as the original beam of light. Instead of panicking all we need to do is look at it and say "We can use Huygens (and the refractive index) to predict where the photons will land." This is either true or QM (and reality) is utterly flawed.
If you can use Huygens spreading on a single photon then clearly a single photon is not quite what they told us it was at school. The DSE is (maybe) the perfect tool for seeing what a photon is.
Like TRoc says .. let us try to look at what we are explaining .. there's no point in explaining anything else.
Best wishes,
-C2.
TRoc .. I am still a post behind.
and we have
Classical Physics.
You suggest there is a problem here and I agree. There is certainly a problem when people discard what they see and invent a 'quantum explanation' that is no longer related to what they see. The quantum explanation of what you see simply explains what you see .. if it doesn't do that then it is not an explanation.
Taking TRoc's point a little further. Let's shine a beam of monochromatic light (frequency =f ) in from the left .. it hits a certain point on the right. We can use Huygens (and the refractive index) to predict where the beam will land. What we detect is made up of packets of energy all given by E=hf.
Let's do the same thing with single photons of energy E=hf. They all hit the same point as the original beam of light. Instead of panicking all we need to do is look at it and say "We can use Huygens (and the refractive index) to predict where the photons will land." This is either true or QM (and reality) is utterly flawed.
If you can use Huygens spreading on a single photon then clearly a single photon is not quite what they told us it was at school. The DSE is (maybe) the perfect tool for seeing what a photon is.
Like TRoc says .. let us try to look at what we are explaining .. there's no point in explaining anything else.
Best wishes,
-C2.
TRoc .. I am still a post behind.
Hi TRoc,
I was hoping that you didn't see my previous comment
What I said was right and wrong so I deferred to another tact.
Black body is about spectral temperatures emitted from an absorbent "source".
IMO, green either isn't part of the atomic emission spectrum because of its
electron configuration, or because there are no overlapping yellow or blue
frequencies present.
I think it depends on the absorption characteristics of a black body.
Use the pull down to show the spectral lines of various elements.
http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/quantumzone/index.html
Regards,
LL
I was hoping that you didn't see my previous comment
What I said was right and wrong so I deferred to another tact.
QUOTE
No green. If anybody else has an explanation, I'd love to hear it.
Black body is about spectral temperatures emitted from an absorbent "source".
IMO, green either isn't part of the atomic emission spectrum because of its
electron configuration, or because there are no overlapping yellow or blue
frequencies present.
I think it depends on the absorption characteristics of a black body.
Use the pull down to show the spectral lines of various elements.
http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/quantumzone/index.html
Regards,
LL
Hi TRoc,
QUOTE (TRoc+)
the validity of the "photon" model,
We have not seen anything remotely like the QM 'photon model'. I am hoping (probably foolishly) that we can derive a 'photon model' from what we see and it will look like a QM photon model.
We have not seen anything remotely like the QM 'photon model'. I am hoping (probably foolishly) that we can derive a 'photon model' from what we see and it will look like a QM photon model.
QUOTE (TRoc+)
No green in BB radiation.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_la...-body_radiation we see BB radiation isn't a frequency .. it's a distribution of frequencies to be expected from a BB at a given temperature. If there is no temperature corresponds to a distribution of frequencies that we perceive as green .. so what?
Best wishes,
-C2.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_la...-body_radiation we see BB radiation isn't a frequency .. it's a distribution of frequencies to be expected from a BB at a given temperature. If there is no temperature corresponds to a distribution of frequencies that we perceive as green .. so what?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi all,
I find myself with free time today! yippee
I would like to say here something that I have been seeing more and more of lately. The statement, from "authoritative sources", that the "OLD QUANTUM MECHANICS" is wrong. That seems a bit of a "cop-out", by the "new guard". The foundations STILL are built from there.
C2 brings the "monochromatic" light into the prism. I have done this. The "color" does NOT change, and the angle is predictable by wavelength. Several times, he has said the equation E=hf may hide more than it shows, and I think I can agree with that. For me, that equation is nothing more than a statistical statement, offering NOTHING about what a "photon" is, or what type of "form" it has, etc.
LL, your "instinctive" response is logical. I thought along the same lines, however, it is untenable. There are PLENTY of elements giving off "green light", many of which DO NOT have the seemingly necessary cyan & yellow frequency range energies present, at all.
I'm going to throw a few of my observations out, on this "visual":

1. We have an ASSUMED slit creating the "beam" of "white light" ("photons"?) entering from the left.
This, however, is NOT necessary. Again, I have done this many times, and it is not "theory", it is "observation". You can walk outside with your prism, and in direct, full Sunlight, cast the rainbow refraction onto the ground (more visibly onto your own shadow). The slit is not necessary, but helpful, as is a dark room.
2. A major problem seems to be, that for every ONE "photon" going in, we have SEVEN going out. Now, let's not get caught up in semantics; this # is "flexible". The point is, NEW "photons" are being generated, in agreement with the Huygens model. This seems to conflict with the 1st Law (conservation of energy), AS interpreted by QM's E = n h f .
3. Without the "visual aid" of the slit created beam, we must realize that the WHOLE plane of the prism is "gathering" light. We can safely assume, that the frequencies from the Sun are both greater, and lower that what we can see. The glass "reflects" these frequencies though (IR & UV). What seems "transparent", is also a "filter". Based on observation, it would seem that green is also NOT allowed to "pass through", it is formed at a specific distance away.
Comments, additional observations, etc. ??
T.Roc
I find myself with free time today! yippee
I would like to say here something that I have been seeing more and more of lately. The statement, from "authoritative sources", that the "OLD QUANTUM MECHANICS" is wrong. That seems a bit of a "cop-out", by the "new guard". The foundations STILL are built from there.
C2 brings the "monochromatic" light into the prism. I have done this. The "color" does NOT change, and the angle is predictable by wavelength. Several times, he has said the equation E=hf may hide more than it shows, and I think I can agree with that. For me, that equation is nothing more than a statistical statement, offering NOTHING about what a "photon" is, or what type of "form" it has, etc.
LL, your "instinctive" response is logical. I thought along the same lines, however, it is untenable. There are PLENTY of elements giving off "green light", many of which DO NOT have the seemingly necessary cyan & yellow frequency range energies present, at all.
I'm going to throw a few of my observations out, on this "visual":

1. We have an ASSUMED slit creating the "beam" of "white light" ("photons"?) entering from the left.
This, however, is NOT necessary. Again, I have done this many times, and it is not "theory", it is "observation". You can walk outside with your prism, and in direct, full Sunlight, cast the rainbow refraction onto the ground (more visibly onto your own shadow). The slit is not necessary, but helpful, as is a dark room.
2. A major problem seems to be, that for every ONE "photon" going in, we have SEVEN going out. Now, let's not get caught up in semantics; this # is "flexible". The point is, NEW "photons" are being generated, in agreement with the Huygens model. This seems to conflict with the 1st Law (conservation of energy), AS interpreted by QM's E = n h f .
3. Without the "visual aid" of the slit created beam, we must realize that the WHOLE plane of the prism is "gathering" light. We can safely assume, that the frequencies from the Sun are both greater, and lower that what we can see. The glass "reflects" these frequencies though (IR & UV). What seems "transparent", is also a "filter". Based on observation, it would seem that green is also NOT allowed to "pass through", it is formed at a specific distance away.
Comments, additional observations, etc. ??
T.Roc
C2,
Then why are you using the QM equation, energy = integer multiples of h times the frequency??
This is specifically why I said, we can't mix these things up. You want the classical version, fine. YOU need to come up with a new equation for energy.
Then why are you using the QM equation, energy = integer multiples of h times the frequency??
This is specifically why I said, we can't mix these things up. You want the classical version, fine. YOU need to come up with a new equation for energy.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_la...-body_radiation we see BB radiation isn't a frequency .. it's a distribution of frequencies to be expected from a BB at a given temperature. If there is no temperature corresponds to a distribution of frequencies that we perceive as green .. so what?
WOW! That is shocking!
so what?? !!
First, you want to talk about OBSERVABLES. This is a REAL experiment, commonly known to blacksmiths. The material (any) changes color as it heats up. It's that simple. Are you suggesting that there is a "gap" in the temperature, or energy "spectrum"? If you are suggesting that this is just "perception", then WHY, if we pass this SAME spectrum of energy, through a slit and a prism, do we get green? Why is green in the rainbow? Why did the evolution of plants develop so predominately in that color?
Let me point something out here. "Black" is NOT a "color". There is NOT ONE atomic transition that produces black. There is no frequency for black. Green is the ONLY (accepted) color that ABSORBS ALL OTHER COLORS, and REFLECTS ONLY ITSELF. (I can say something about magenta here, but I am STAYING WITHIN THE TEXTBOOK here) Evolution is a work of art; it knows how to maximize energy, it will do more than survive, it will flourish, if given the chance.
The MAXIMUM intensity in the single OR double slit is CENTERED by frequency. If we just put a PRISM in between the slit(s) and the screen, this maximum intensity will appear green. Try it!
regards,
T.Roc
QUOTE
We have not seen anything remotely like the QM 'photon model'. I am hoping (probably foolishly) that we can derive a 'photon model' from what we see and it will look like a QM photon model.
Then why are you using the QM equation, energy = integer multiples of h times the frequency??
This is specifically why I said, we can't mix these things up. You want the classical version, fine. YOU need to come up with a new equation for energy.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| We have not seen anything remotely like the QM 'photon model'. I am hoping (probably foolishly) that we can derive a 'photon model' from what we see and it will look like a QM photon model. |
Then why are you using the QM equation, energy = integer multiples of h times the frequency??
This is specifically why I said, we can't mix these things up. You want the classical version, fine. YOU need to come up with a new equation for energy.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_la...-body_radiation we see BB radiation isn't a frequency .. it's a distribution of frequencies to be expected from a BB at a given temperature. If there is no temperature corresponds to a distribution of frequencies that we perceive as green .. so what?
WOW! That is shocking!
so what?? !!
First, you want to talk about OBSERVABLES. This is a REAL experiment, commonly known to blacksmiths. The material (any) changes color as it heats up. It's that simple. Are you suggesting that there is a "gap" in the temperature, or energy "spectrum"? If you are suggesting that this is just "perception", then WHY, if we pass this SAME spectrum of energy, through a slit and a prism, do we get green? Why is green in the rainbow? Why did the evolution of plants develop so predominately in that color?
Let me point something out here. "Black" is NOT a "color". There is NOT ONE atomic transition that produces black. There is no frequency for black. Green is the ONLY (accepted) color that ABSORBS ALL OTHER COLORS, and REFLECTS ONLY ITSELF. (I can say something about magenta here, but I am STAYING WITHIN THE TEXTBOOK here) Evolution is a work of art; it knows how to maximize energy, it will do more than survive, it will flourish, if given the chance.
The MAXIMUM intensity in the single OR double slit is CENTERED by frequency. If we just put a PRISM in between the slit(s) and the screen, this maximum intensity will appear green. Try it!
regards,
T.Roc
QUOTE (TRoc+)
The point is, NEW "photons" are being generated, in agreement with the Huygens model.
This sort of assumption is the point where it all starts to go horribly wrong.
Best wishes,
-C2.
This sort of assumption is the point where it all starts to go horribly wrong.
Best wishes,
-C2.
TRoc,
Rethink what you said. We have a multitude of frequencies (white light) entering
the prism. There are a full range of visible frequencies, plus rejected
(filtered) frequencies, and frequencies above and below our visual acuity limits.
If you look at the triangular shape of the prism you will notice that the angles
of the surface planes create different path lengths, so when you analyze the
red spectrum it varies from high infrared wavelengths to the lowest red frequency
before shifting to orange, etc. So the prism isn't just 7 wavelengths of color. it is
a full range of wavelengths that make up white light. UV frequencies are probably
partially filtered by the glass.
Just an observation...
LL
QUOTE
. A major problem seems to be, that for every ONE "photon" going in, we have SEVEN going out. Now, let's not get caught up in semantics; this # is "flexible". The point is, NEW "photons" are being generated, in agreement with the Huygens model. This seems to conflict with the 1st Law (conservation of energy), AS interpreted by QM's E = n h f .
Rethink what you said. We have a multitude of frequencies (white light) entering
the prism. There are a full range of visible frequencies, plus rejected
(filtered) frequencies, and frequencies above and below our visual acuity limits.
If you look at the triangular shape of the prism you will notice that the angles
of the surface planes create different path lengths, so when you analyze the
red spectrum it varies from high infrared wavelengths to the lowest red frequency
before shifting to orange, etc. So the prism isn't just 7 wavelengths of color. it is
a full range of wavelengths that make up white light. UV frequencies are probably
partially filtered by the glass.
Just an observation...
LL
Hi TRoc,
Black is the absence of reflections due to full spectrum absorption of all visible
frequencies.
No one ever contradicted my assertion that a black hole was so gravitationally
dense that the atomic structure at the core was compressed to the point that
electrons had different orbital characteristics and couldn't perform orbital
transition "jumps" as in "normal" atomic matter. If an electron cannot change
levels because "none?" exist, then photon's cannot be generated/emitted and
the energy is released as gravitational fields.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
Let me point something out here. "Black" is NOT a "color". There is NOT ONE atomic transition that produces black. There is no frequency for black.
Black is the absence of reflections due to full spectrum absorption of all visible
frequencies.
No one ever contradicted my assertion that a black hole was so gravitationally
dense that the atomic structure at the core was compressed to the point that
electrons had different orbital characteristics and couldn't perform orbital
transition "jumps" as in "normal" atomic matter. If an electron cannot change
levels because "none?" exist, then photon's cannot be generated/emitted and
the energy is released as gravitational fields.
Regards,
LL
Hi TRoc,
About the spectrum, you are right it is completely unseen as a quantum event until it reaches a screen. I understand your point but you are also missing some very important experimental evidence...
The "Full" Solar "visible" Spectrum

...Click to enlarge...
(note the image shows many detailed rows of the solar spectrum that are to be placed end to end).
Laserlight seems to not get your point but I do... I just disagree that all photons are created "equal" in that Black Body thermal process. The solar spectrum does have a lot of green in it and so do green lasers and fluorescent lights. What the solar spectrum is not is a continuous spectrum and I am not referring to the dark bands here I am saying that the photons themselves do not make a continuous spectrum. Clearly in the solar spectrum Green is not a "mixture" of two or more colors (check out the resolution and note all those single absorption lines within the green band... each one is a single frequency that is absorbed and not simply composed of a number of frequencies). This spectrum is created using a high discrimination spectrometer and not simply a hunk of "glass" which is inadequate instrument to resolve all the frequencies. It is "suggestive" to think that white light is composed of an emission just "philosophically" like a hot filament in an incandescent bulb but thermally generated photons do form an overlapping sequence as a sum never glows "green hot" or even "blue hot". The color temperature does not pass through those colors shown in your illustration, I think it is meant to be instructive not accurate about what is seen. White light is what we "see" as a subset of frequencies our eye is sensitive to, and the color temperature chart shown would be a chart "seen" by a sophisticated instrument and not our eyes. The center "mean" frequency of the Black-Body Spectrum is probably what is shown. I stress that our eye see a mixture of frequencies (mostly sensitive in the green band). Here is a simplistic but instructive discussion.
About the spectrum, you are right it is completely unseen as a quantum event until it reaches a screen. I understand your point but you are also missing some very important experimental evidence...
The "Full" Solar "visible" Spectrum

...Click to enlarge...
(note the image shows many detailed rows of the solar spectrum that are to be placed end to end).
Laserlight seems to not get your point but I do... I just disagree that all photons are created "equal" in that Black Body thermal process. The solar spectrum does have a lot of green in it and so do green lasers and fluorescent lights. What the solar spectrum is not is a continuous spectrum and I am not referring to the dark bands here I am saying that the photons themselves do not make a continuous spectrum. Clearly in the solar spectrum Green is not a "mixture" of two or more colors (check out the resolution and note all those single absorption lines within the green band... each one is a single frequency that is absorbed and not simply composed of a number of frequencies). This spectrum is created using a high discrimination spectrometer and not simply a hunk of "glass" which is inadequate instrument to resolve all the frequencies. It is "suggestive" to think that white light is composed of an emission just "philosophically" like a hot filament in an incandescent bulb but thermally generated photons do form an overlapping sequence as a sum never glows "green hot" or even "blue hot". The color temperature does not pass through those colors shown in your illustration, I think it is meant to be instructive not accurate about what is seen. White light is what we "see" as a subset of frequencies our eye is sensitive to, and the color temperature chart shown would be a chart "seen" by a sophisticated instrument and not our eyes. The center "mean" frequency of the Black-Body Spectrum is probably what is shown. I stress that our eye see a mixture of frequencies (mostly sensitive in the green band). Here is a simplistic but instructive discussion.
QUOTE (Q: Which is hotter white fire or blue fire?+)
A: This is a great question. As you suggest, the color of an object can tell us something about its temperature.
It turns out that an object which is at a fixed temperature will give off light over quite a broad range of wavelengths. The center, or average, of these wavelengths are related to the temperature. If you heat a piece of steel until it looks white, it is quite hot. The wavelengths of the light that this piece of steel gives off range from red to blue, which (when mixed together) look white to our eyes.
If something is even hotter than this (so hot that it looks blue to our eyes) it means that the wavelengths of the light that this object gives off probably range from blue up through the ultra-violet (UV). Since our eyes cant see UV light, it just looks blue to us.
So, unless something else is going on, an object that looks blue probably has a higher temperature than something that looks white.
Having said this, you should realize that this may not always be true. Some chemicals burn with a blue color, for example, so that if you burn some of these on an ordinary fire it will look blue for a while (some fireplace logs may do this). This does not mean that the temperature of the whole fire went up, just that these chemicals made the color change.
http://van.physics.uiuc.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1552
It turns out that an object which is at a fixed temperature will give off light over quite a broad range of wavelengths. The center, or average, of these wavelengths are related to the temperature. If you heat a piece of steel until it looks white, it is quite hot. The wavelengths of the light that this piece of steel gives off range from red to blue, which (when mixed together) look white to our eyes.
If something is even hotter than this (so hot that it looks blue to our eyes) it means that the wavelengths of the light that this object gives off probably range from blue up through the ultra-violet (UV). Since our eyes cant see UV light, it just looks blue to us.
So, unless something else is going on, an object that looks blue probably has a higher temperature than something that looks white.
Having said this, you should realize that this may not always be true. Some chemicals burn with a blue color, for example, so that if you burn some of these on an ordinary fire it will look blue for a while (some fireplace logs may do this). This does not mean that the temperature of the whole fire went up, just that these chemicals made the color change.
http://van.physics.uiuc.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1552
I would like to add that to appear blue the black body frequencies "up to blue" must be removed through a filtering process. Stars can have spectrums with center frequencies in the blue or UV range and this can change the way they appear since they can emit copious radiation in the UV and beyond. It is our eyes that is the instrument here that can only see from red to blue and this limitation masks these spectra with a cut-off window function. So almost everything appears only white hot "at best" regardless of its temperature.
Black Body Radiation is not the entire reason why photons are of a particular 'color"... it is the emission and absorption of photons from atomic shells or from "other resonant systems" such as driven antennas. Also the full spectrum is not made from an infinite number of oscillators but a finite number of oscillators and this is the essence of the origin of Planck's Constant. There are really no continuous spectra just poor instruments for resolving frequencies.
Cheers
Black Body Radiation is not the entire reason why photons are of a particular 'color"... it is the emission and absorption of photons from atomic shells or from "other resonant systems" such as driven antennas. Also the full spectrum is not made from an infinite number of oscillators but a finite number of oscillators and this is the essence of the origin of Planck's Constant. There are really no continuous spectra just poor instruments for resolving frequencies.
Cheers
Hi guys,
Good points by both of you.
C2, this was my reading of the common interpretation of the Huygens' model: treating the "overlaps" as NEW points of light.
I did not "stretch" anything at all (assumption). New points of light means new "photons", if you make the jump between the classical (CL) model, and the quanta of energy model.
Right?
LL, very good observation. This is where the simplistic model begins to break down, by asking some logical questions. I mentioned that the REAL story (as opposed to the "picture" model, geometry alone) has many frequencies incident upon the entire plane of one side of the prism. It is very logical to say, that we have a SPREAD of frequencies (an octave, in the Nyquist limit) from red to violet.
Then, the classical monster rears its' head again, because of another OBSERVATION: we have TWO BEAMS that converge to produce the familiar "spectrum". A red/yellow beam, and a cyan/violet beam. When they converge, the picture is complete, with the inclusion of green. This is the reason why I postulate that "photons" can interact, in some special circumstances, that I term "resonant".
We seem to have an "observer cone", as well as the "light cone". ISL does NOT agree with the the conservation idea here. The intensity, amplitude, energy have historical problems agreeing on which one is "in charge". This is not "my theory" here, just one of the problems between CL and QM. The "UV catastrophe" predictions of CL vs. Planks' BBR curve (QM). The "summing" of intensity (CL) vs. the non-reacting energy levels of the Photoelectric effect, and all atomic transitions (QM).
Energy does not "sum" in the simple way that CL predicts. The sine wave vectors are invalid there, as far as measuring ENERGY is concerned. You can "sum" red "photons" ALL DAY long, and not meet the quantum jump requirement, if it is just even "yellow".
This is why I asked about producing violet in TV's, etc. so many pages ago. It was not a "technical" question, it was about the fact that red + blue can NOT trigger a violet level of energy. In QM, it just does NOT work that way. This is not saying that we can't fool the human eye with such a method, obviously, we do.
We could run the "transactional" approach, taking the ISL from BOTH locations (emission/absorption), meeting in the middle (the sq.rt. of the distance between) with a "standing wave" harmonic node. This "delta"E, or beat-frequency does NOT violate conservation of energy, because the difference can only exist between what is already there. The cyan + yellow is TOO simplistic. We need to think of these TWO independent beams, that we OBSERVE "on the way" to the screen (after the prism), as TWO dipoles. The energy, having a LOWER limit, at the lowest red frequency, and an UPPER limit, at the highest violet frequency. Our "center frequency" then, becomes "elementary".
2f1*f2
-------- = Harmonic mean, for each "beam" (not a monopole)
f1+f2
then, repeat the process, for the Harmonic mean of the 2 beams, and we arrive at the frequency for green light.
regards,
T.Roc
Good points by both of you.
C2, this was my reading of the common interpretation of the Huygens' model: treating the "overlaps" as NEW points of light.
I did not "stretch" anything at all (assumption). New points of light means new "photons", if you make the jump between the classical (CL) model, and the quanta of energy model.
Right?
LL, very good observation. This is where the simplistic model begins to break down, by asking some logical questions. I mentioned that the REAL story (as opposed to the "picture" model, geometry alone) has many frequencies incident upon the entire plane of one side of the prism. It is very logical to say, that we have a SPREAD of frequencies (an octave, in the Nyquist limit) from red to violet.
Then, the classical monster rears its' head again, because of another OBSERVATION: we have TWO BEAMS that converge to produce the familiar "spectrum". A red/yellow beam, and a cyan/violet beam. When they converge, the picture is complete, with the inclusion of green. This is the reason why I postulate that "photons" can interact, in some special circumstances, that I term "resonant".
We seem to have an "observer cone", as well as the "light cone". ISL does NOT agree with the the conservation idea here. The intensity, amplitude, energy have historical problems agreeing on which one is "in charge". This is not "my theory" here, just one of the problems between CL and QM. The "UV catastrophe" predictions of CL vs. Planks' BBR curve (QM). The "summing" of intensity (CL) vs. the non-reacting energy levels of the Photoelectric effect, and all atomic transitions (QM).
Energy does not "sum" in the simple way that CL predicts. The sine wave vectors are invalid there, as far as measuring ENERGY is concerned. You can "sum" red "photons" ALL DAY long, and not meet the quantum jump requirement, if it is just even "yellow".
This is why I asked about producing violet in TV's, etc. so many pages ago. It was not a "technical" question, it was about the fact that red + blue can NOT trigger a violet level of energy. In QM, it just does NOT work that way. This is not saying that we can't fool the human eye with such a method, obviously, we do.
We could run the "transactional" approach, taking the ISL from BOTH locations (emission/absorption), meeting in the middle (the sq.rt. of the distance between) with a "standing wave" harmonic node. This "delta"E, or beat-frequency does NOT violate conservation of energy, because the difference can only exist between what is already there. The cyan + yellow is TOO simplistic. We need to think of these TWO independent beams, that we OBSERVE "on the way" to the screen (after the prism), as TWO dipoles. The energy, having a LOWER limit, at the lowest red frequency, and an UPPER limit, at the highest violet frequency. Our "center frequency" then, becomes "elementary".
2f1*f2
-------- = Harmonic mean, for each "beam" (not a monopole)
f1+f2
then, repeat the process, for the Harmonic mean of the 2 beams, and we arrive at the frequency for green light.
regards,
T.Roc
Hi All,
I do not want this to be taken as any individual sanction or trying to prevent people and their creativity but... Remember folks... if your "special theory" has no experimental verification that shows that your "brainstorm" is uniquely the only solution... Then you will need to invent an experiment yourself to show your special feature so others can believe in your heresy. That is the Scientific Method... evidence based Science! Most of what I am seeing here would have gone down well amongst Ptolemy and his friends because experiment was never considered as a means of sorting the "wheat from the chaff", it was down to debate and strong and authoritative figures to champion "causes". Sometimes a knife in the back led to a favorable outcome or in some cases burning at the stake. This was the legitimate way in which "wisdom" was maintained for thousands of years.
We have recently seen leaders of countries, faiths and political movements (... as well as Terrorist Groups) behave in totally irrational ways because they ignore all the evidence and only seek to surround themselves with true believers. Today we have the scientific method and most people here have no appreciation of the fact that a good argument works in politics and religion but will fail in science because you must do more than just gather a group of believers around you. Of course I really think people who act according to emotional attachment to ideas are quite "dangerous" to themselves and to others. They are able to "poison" the way people think and measure information. The total lack of self reflexion is an indication of disturbed mental processes and also of madness. There is a thin line between Science and madness and many "leaders" have crossed over. This is why it is essential to have some "tools" that you can use to evaluate your ideas. Science is supposed to provide you with those tools... but you can lead a horse to water but not make him drink.
This does not mean that your ideas can't be heresies ("elves" are full of heresies) but if you want to promulgate heresies you better be prepared to back them up with actual facts and experiments or at least be capable of seeing where you may fail in your postulates. What I am seeing is "dogma" and statements as if they were fact. They are not "facts". I am seeing nothing of any application to well known experiments here to some of these ideas. It is becoming impossible to build the tower of the knowledge of science if every statement being made completely demolishes that structure and requires some poor sucker to start at the bottom all over again. People think they understand "common sense"... what I know is there is no such thing... we need to build up a picture through methodical painstaking steps to be able to see further.
Cheers
I do not want this to be taken as any individual sanction or trying to prevent people and their creativity but... Remember folks... if your "special theory" has no experimental verification that shows that your "brainstorm" is uniquely the only solution... Then you will need to invent an experiment yourself to show your special feature so others can believe in your heresy. That is the Scientific Method... evidence based Science! Most of what I am seeing here would have gone down well amongst Ptolemy and his friends because experiment was never considered as a means of sorting the "wheat from the chaff", it was down to debate and strong and authoritative figures to champion "causes". Sometimes a knife in the back led to a favorable outcome or in some cases burning at the stake. This was the legitimate way in which "wisdom" was maintained for thousands of years.
We have recently seen leaders of countries, faiths and political movements (... as well as Terrorist Groups) behave in totally irrational ways because they ignore all the evidence and only seek to surround themselves with true believers. Today we have the scientific method and most people here have no appreciation of the fact that a good argument works in politics and religion but will fail in science because you must do more than just gather a group of believers around you. Of course I really think people who act according to emotional attachment to ideas are quite "dangerous" to themselves and to others. They are able to "poison" the way people think and measure information. The total lack of self reflexion is an indication of disturbed mental processes and also of madness. There is a thin line between Science and madness and many "leaders" have crossed over. This is why it is essential to have some "tools" that you can use to evaluate your ideas. Science is supposed to provide you with those tools... but you can lead a horse to water but not make him drink.
This does not mean that your ideas can't be heresies ("elves" are full of heresies) but if you want to promulgate heresies you better be prepared to back them up with actual facts and experiments or at least be capable of seeing where you may fail in your postulates. What I am seeing is "dogma" and statements as if they were fact. They are not "facts". I am seeing nothing of any application to well known experiments here to some of these ideas. It is becoming impossible to build the tower of the knowledge of science if every statement being made completely demolishes that structure and requires some poor sucker to start at the bottom all over again. People think they understand "common sense"... what I know is there is no such thing... we need to build up a picture through methodical painstaking steps to be able to see further.
Cheers
Hi TRoc et al,
QUOTE (TRoc+)
[..of Huygens.. ] I did not "stretch" anything at all (assumption). New points of light means new "photons", if you make the jump between the classical (CL) model, and the quanta of energy model.
The ratio of intensity before the slit and the intensity map after the slit is well documented. eg http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../sinint.html#c1 .. I can try to find experimental confirmation of this if you are not prepared to accept this as an agreed result.
If we look at the results of the single photon DSE here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif we see Huygens in operation on a single photon (and a great deal more).
Good Elf has pointed out that there is no such thing as common sense .. if the experimental data shows pigs flying then we have to accept that pigs can fly regardless of what our 'common sense' might be trying to tell us.
Best wishes,
-C2.
The ratio of intensity before the slit and the intensity map after the slit is well documented. eg http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../sinint.html#c1 .. I can try to find experimental confirmation of this if you are not prepared to accept this as an agreed result.
If we look at the results of the single photon DSE here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif we see Huygens in operation on a single photon (and a great deal more).
Good Elf has pointed out that there is no such thing as common sense .. if the experimental data shows pigs flying then we have to accept that pigs can fly regardless of what our 'common sense' might be trying to tell us.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi C2,
Since you are so fond of analogies, you might appreciate this satirical mystery.
Let's say you have a greenhouse, with a garden in it, that is located next to your
neighbors farm who owns some pigs. Every night you lock the doors to the
greenhouse, hang the key on a nail, but leave a window open at the top for
ventilation. One morning upon entering the greenhouse you find all of your ripe
tomatoes are eaten and there are pig tracks in all the paths between the rows of
tomatoes. The evidence is clear, since the door was locked and the window was
open, and there are pig tracks inside the greenhouse....there can only be one
conclusion, since pigs can't use keys...........your neighbor has a flying pig.
Regards,
Bullwinkle
QUOTE
Good Elf has pointed out that there is no such thing as common sense .. if the experimental data shows pigs flying then we have to accept that pigs can fly regardless of what our 'common sense' might be trying to tell us.
Since you are so fond of analogies, you might appreciate this satirical mystery.
Let's say you have a greenhouse, with a garden in it, that is located next to your
neighbors farm who owns some pigs. Every night you lock the doors to the
greenhouse, hang the key on a nail, but leave a window open at the top for
ventilation. One morning upon entering the greenhouse you find all of your ripe
tomatoes are eaten and there are pig tracks in all the paths between the rows of
tomatoes. The evidence is clear, since the door was locked and the window was
open, and there are pig tracks inside the greenhouse....there can only be one
conclusion, since pigs can't use keys...........your neighbor has a flying pig.
Regards,
Bullwinkle
Hi Laserlight,
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
there can only be one conclusion, since pigs can't use keys...........your neighbor has a flying pig.
Pretty close.. the general idea is to reach a conclusion based on the available evidence... no matter how absurd it may seem.
It seems your EM wave is not infinitely divisible. Which way do you want to cut it .. lengthways or across?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Pretty close.. the general idea is to reach a conclusion based on the available evidence... no matter how absurd it may seem.
It seems your EM wave is not infinitely divisible. Which way do you want to cut it .. lengthways or across?
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi C2,
I wasn't sure whether you could appreciate the "Bullwinkle" reference. Something
from my childhood, a "kids" show whose format was based on twisted satire and
absurdity. It completely warped "Aesop's Fables" and "Fractured Fairy Tales".
It was great stuff, a cartoon version along the lines of Monty Python and
Benny Hill.
One must look at ALL of the evidence and weigh it to reach a true
final conclusion, not just the obvious clues that you trip over.
EM waves are divisible down to a single wavelet from a single electron event.
They can scale up from there.
Regards,
LL
I wasn't sure whether you could appreciate the "Bullwinkle" reference. Something
from my childhood, a "kids" show whose format was based on twisted satire and
absurdity. It completely warped "Aesop's Fables" and "Fractured Fairy Tales".
It was great stuff, a cartoon version along the lines of Monty Python and
Benny Hill.
QUOTE
Pretty close.. the general idea is to reach a conclusion based on the available evidence... no matter how absurd it may seem.
It seems your EM wave is not infinitely divisible. Which way do you want to cut it .. lengthways or across?
It seems your EM wave is not infinitely divisible. Which way do you want to cut it .. lengthways or across?
One must look at ALL of the evidence and weigh it to reach a true
final conclusion, not just the obvious clues that you trip over.
EM waves are divisible down to a single wavelet from a single electron event.
They can scale up from there.
Regards,
LL
Hi LL,
QUOTE (LL+)
EM waves are divisible down to a single wavelet from a single electron event. They can scale up from there.
So now we look at the evidence:-
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
and we see only one interference peak (or possibly none at all).
Poor old Kennedy and Thorndike certainly have no interference fringes to look at.
Best wishes,
-C2.
So now we look at the evidence:-
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
and we see only one interference peak (or possibly none at all).
Poor old Kennedy and Thorndike certainly have no interference fringes to look at.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi C2,
One interference peak???? So how does your model explain the results of
this experiment? I had asked you this before.
Explain how your geometrical phase addition approach yields this interference
pattern. The door is locked, the window is open, and there are pig tracks on the
ground, and you are holding the key.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
So now we look at the evidence:-
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
and we see only one interference peak (or possibly none at all).
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
and we see only one interference peak (or possibly none at all).
One interference peak???? So how does your model explain the results of
this experiment? I had asked you this before.
Explain how your geometrical phase addition approach yields this interference
pattern. The door is locked, the window is open, and there are pig tracks on the
ground, and you are holding the key.
Regards,
LL
Hi all,
Wow, it seems that for the first time, everybody agrees on something. No rebuttals, and a list of relevant topics to choose from, to continue this fruitful conversation. Terrorists, Pigs, & Greenhouses. The standard experiment of light refracting from a prism is hard to argue with.
I'll try to respond to your clear questions, with brevity and respect.
GE -
No, I didn't miss that HUGE piece of evidence at all, you must have mistaken the source of that. I clearly stated that green frequencies (~5.47e+14 Hz) exist in the transitions of atomic states. The "Fraunhoffer lines" are a continuous spectrum, that exists between the "limits" of visible light.
GE-
No, I didn't miss that HUGE piece of evidence at all, you must have mistaken the source of that. I clearly stated that green frequencies (~5.47e+14 Hz) exist in the transitions of atomic states. The "Fraunhoffer lines" are a continuous spectrum, that exists between the "limits" of visible light.
GE- Also the full spectrum is not made from an infinite number of oscillators but a finite number of oscillators and this is the essence of the origin of Planck's Constant.
I agree that this is one of the flaws in Plancks' hypothesis. He assumed that "all frequencies" would be present, knowing nothing of the "atom" (it hadn't been "discovered" yet; Bohrs' quantized angular momentum as well). Planck also made the mistake of taking the "average" frequency, instead of the Harmonic mean. Pythagoras clearly educated the world on why this is wrong. If you don't understand this, then I would love for you to deposit your money in my bank.
You see the same mistake being made by Chandrasekhar Roychoudhuri, in his attempt at "proving" the "photons" do not display the resonant properties of interaction. The valuable information that he provides in his well documented and performed experiments, actually proves the opposite after being corrected for this error .
This is very reminiscent of Millikan, being emotionally driven to disprove Einsteins' Photoelectric theory. He ended up failing miserably, but won a Noble Prize for the excellent body of evidence that he accumulated in the process.
We take with us these two facts: 1.) Intensity = # of "photons" = magnitude of electric current. 2.) Energy = frequency of "photons" = cut off voltage (max. retarding potential).
I must assume that the rest of GE's statements were directed at LL's "black hole" postulating. Apparently, GE is also coming up with evidence to overthrow the equivalence of Heisenberg's Matrix mechanics, Schroedinger's Wave Mechanics, and Dirac's Quantum Algebra, as proved by Dirac's Transformation Theory, because we must have "experimental verification that shows that your "brainstorm" is uniquely the only solution". Good luck, GE.
LL, I missed your theory on the infinitely divisible EM wave, that C2 has "disproved" (C2-"Hi Laserlight,...It seems your EM wave is not infinitely divisible.), using this
C2 also apparently is going to abandon the Huygens model, based on the "intensity" of a single "photon". The nice thing about wanting to stick with the classical approach, is that you have several inadequate models to choose from. Just when logic closes in on you, you can just bring up another model, that doesn't rely on the same flaw as the one being pointed out at the time.
C2 also points out that we seem to have a velocity problem. Since refraction changes the velocity of a wave, based on frequency, and every medium has refractive index that is not "1.00", then every frequency, from the continuous/infinite spectrum, would amount to a similar continuous/infinite range of velocities. CL, QM, and S/GR don't want to agree on this.
Montec, get us out of here!
ciao,
T.Roc
Wow, it seems that for the first time, everybody agrees on something. No rebuttals, and a list of relevant topics to choose from, to continue this fruitful conversation. Terrorists, Pigs, & Greenhouses. The standard experiment of light refracting from a prism is hard to argue with.
I'll try to respond to your clear questions, with brevity and respect.
GE -
QUOTE
..but you are also missing some very important experimental evidence...The "Full" Solar "visible" Spectrum
No, I didn't miss that HUGE piece of evidence at all, you must have mistaken the source of that. I clearly stated that green frequencies (~5.47e+14 Hz) exist in the transitions of atomic states. The "Fraunhoffer lines" are a continuous spectrum, that exists between the "limits" of visible light.
GE-
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| ..but you are also missing some very important experimental evidence...The "Full" Solar "visible" Spectrum |
No, I didn't miss that HUGE piece of evidence at all, you must have mistaken the source of that. I clearly stated that green frequencies (~5.47e+14 Hz) exist in the transitions of atomic states. The "Fraunhoffer lines" are a continuous spectrum, that exists between the "limits" of visible light.
GE- Also the full spectrum is not made from an infinite number of oscillators but a finite number of oscillators and this is the essence of the origin of Planck's Constant.
I agree that this is one of the flaws in Plancks' hypothesis. He assumed that "all frequencies" would be present, knowing nothing of the "atom" (it hadn't been "discovered" yet; Bohrs' quantized angular momentum as well). Planck also made the mistake of taking the "average" frequency, instead of the Harmonic mean. Pythagoras clearly educated the world on why this is wrong. If you don't understand this, then I would love for you to deposit your money in my bank.
You see the same mistake being made by Chandrasekhar Roychoudhuri, in his attempt at "proving" the "photons" do not display the resonant properties of interaction. The valuable information that he provides in his well documented and performed experiments, actually proves the opposite after being corrected for this error .
This is very reminiscent of Millikan, being emotionally driven to disprove Einsteins' Photoelectric theory. He ended up failing miserably, but won a Noble Prize for the excellent body of evidence that he accumulated in the process.
We take with us these two facts: 1.) Intensity = # of "photons" = magnitude of electric current. 2.) Energy = frequency of "photons" = cut off voltage (max. retarding potential).
I must assume that the rest of GE's statements were directed at LL's "black hole" postulating. Apparently, GE is also coming up with evidence to overthrow the equivalence of Heisenberg's Matrix mechanics, Schroedinger's Wave Mechanics, and Dirac's Quantum Algebra, as proved by Dirac's Transformation Theory, because we must have "experimental verification that shows that your "brainstorm" is uniquely the only solution". Good luck, GE.
LL, I missed your theory on the infinitely divisible EM wave, that C2 has "disproved" (C2-"Hi Laserlight,...It seems your EM wave is not infinitely divisible.), using this
QUOTE
"Under the Fraunhofer conditions, the wave arrives at the single slit as a plane wave. Divided into segments, each of which can be regarded as a point source, the amplitudes of the segments will have a constant phase displacement from each other, and will form segments of a circular arc when added as vectors.
can you fill me in on that idea? It's ok to divide it by an arbitrary amount, just as long as you keep trying different numbers until everything "lines up" to match the results. That's the best way to understand why things happen, eh?C2 also apparently is going to abandon the Huygens model, based on the "intensity" of a single "photon". The nice thing about wanting to stick with the classical approach, is that you have several inadequate models to choose from. Just when logic closes in on you, you can just bring up another model, that doesn't rely on the same flaw as the one being pointed out at the time.
C2 also points out that we seem to have a velocity problem. Since refraction changes the velocity of a wave, based on frequency, and every medium has refractive index that is not "1.00", then every frequency, from the continuous/infinite spectrum, would amount to a similar continuous/infinite range of velocities. CL, QM, and S/GR don't want to agree on this.
Montec, get us out of here!
ciao,
T.Roc
Hi LL,
Divide the EM wave lengthways instead of across. Unfortunately this leaves us trying to divide our original assumption about the photon 'lengthways' so there would seem to be something very wrong with our assumption about the photon.
Best wishes,
-C2.
In other words it must be able to fulfill a full EM pulse wave phase cycle. You cannot divide below the phase of a single wavelet and maintain an EM cycle.
Please, just write that you only see one peak.
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
Best wishes,
-C2.
Divide the EM wave lengthways instead of across. Unfortunately this leaves us trying to divide our original assumption about the photon 'lengthways' so there would seem to be something very wrong with our assumption about the photon.
Best wishes,
-C2.
QUOTE (LL+)
You are holding the key
Unfortunately not holding key, possibly the key just doesn't fit the door anyway. I just see the tracks and the open window... and say what I see.
Unfortunately not holding key, possibly the key just doesn't fit the door anyway. I just see the tracks and the open window... and say what I see.
Hi TRoc,
I'm sorry you don't seem to accept that there is any evidence to show that EM cannot be divided indefinitely - it must make the single photon DSE seem pretty silly.
An analysis of a point doesn't prevent that point from being part of a line .. or area or volume .. it's just for convenience of analysis.
I suspect one of the points of 'difficulty' we seem to have relates to my claim that everything looks the same whether it's classical or QT, at least on a macroscopic scale. If it didn't then there really would be something wrong .. different experimental results according to whether you do a classical or QT analysis?
Velocity problem .. major.
Best wishes,
-C2.
I'm sorry you don't seem to accept that there is any evidence to show that EM cannot be divided indefinitely - it must make the single photon DSE seem pretty silly.
An analysis of a point doesn't prevent that point from being part of a line .. or area or volume .. it's just for convenience of analysis.
I suspect one of the points of 'difficulty' we seem to have relates to my claim that everything looks the same whether it's classical or QT, at least on a macroscopic scale. If it didn't then there really would be something wrong .. different experimental results according to whether you do a classical or QT analysis?
Velocity problem .. major.
Best wishes,
-C2.
C2,
I have NEVER made a statement concerning "that EM cannot be divided indefinitely".
The closest that I have come to this, is the opposite. The Fundamental "frequency" of the Universe being the limit. It would be non-linear: a maximum wavelength & minimum frequency, paired with a minimum wavelength & maximum frequency.
regards,
T.Roc
I have NEVER made a statement concerning "that EM cannot be divided indefinitely".
The closest that I have come to this, is the opposite. The Fundamental "frequency" of the Universe being the limit. It would be non-linear: a maximum wavelength & minimum frequency, paired with a minimum wavelength & maximum frequency.
regards,
T.Roc
Hi TRoc,
I took this as being said "tongue in cheek"
and aimed sarcastically at C2
for misstating the obvious. I have stated that a propagating wavefront has
intensity and is divisible down to the number of discrete, but simultaneous,
atomic electron emission events that formed the wavefront. A wave should be
divisible down to a single "photon" of some quantum EM equivalence. In other
words it must be able to fulfill a full EM pulse wave phase cycle. You cannot
divide below the phase of a single wavelet and maintain an EM cycle. There are
an integral number of wavelets in a wavefront, that cannot be divided below an
answer of 1.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
LL, I missed your theory on the infinitely divisible EM wave, that C2 has "disproved" (C2-"Hi Laserlight,...It seems your EM wave is not infinitely divisible.), using this ...
can you fill me in on that idea? It's ok to divide it by an arbitrary amount, just as long as you keep trying different numbers until everything "lines up" to match the results. That's the best way to understand why things happen, eh?
can you fill me in on that idea? It's ok to divide it by an arbitrary amount, just as long as you keep trying different numbers until everything "lines up" to match the results. That's the best way to understand why things happen, eh?
I took this as being said "tongue in cheek"
for misstating the obvious. I have stated that a propagating wavefront has
intensity and is divisible down to the number of discrete, but simultaneous,
atomic electron emission events that formed the wavefront. A wave should be
divisible down to a single "photon" of some quantum EM equivalence. In other
words it must be able to fulfill a full EM pulse wave phase cycle. You cannot
divide below the phase of a single wavelet and maintain an EM cycle. There are
an integral number of wavelets in a wavefront, that cannot be divided below an
answer of 1.
Regards,
LL
LL,
Bravo!
T.Roc
Bravo!
T.Roc
QUOTE (LL+)
In other words it must be able to fulfill a full EM pulse wave phase cycle. You cannot divide below the phase of a single wavelet and maintain an EM cycle.
Please, just write that you only see one peak.
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
Best wishes,
-C2.
C2,
I'm assuming that you mean divide it vertically as opposed to horizontally. When
you do this you are proposing shearing/attenuating/clipping off the electrical field
of a vertically polarized wave. In this case the horizontal slit will act as filter and
block a vertically polarized EM wave by inductively absorbing or reflecting the
electrical component of the individual photon wavelet.
In order for a wave to propagate, it must be able to sustain its mutually interactive
and balanced transverse and longitudinal energy components. If you reduce
either component it will decrease the intensity of the wave, IMO.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
Divide the EM wave lengthways instead of across. Unfortunately this leaves us trying to divide our original assumption about the photon 'lengthways' so there would seem to be something very wrong with our assumption about the photon.
I'm assuming that you mean divide it vertically as opposed to horizontally. When
you do this you are proposing shearing/attenuating/clipping off the electrical field
of a vertically polarized wave. In this case the horizontal slit will act as filter and
block a vertically polarized EM wave by inductively absorbing or reflecting the
electrical component of the individual photon wavelet.
In order for a wave to propagate, it must be able to sustain its mutually interactive
and balanced transverse and longitudinal energy components. If you reduce
either component it will decrease the intensity of the wave, IMO.
Regards,
LL
TRoc,
Ok now this is getting scary..... as this statement supports my contention of
what the Aether is. (I just got a "vision" of GE shaking his head and pulling a
gun out of a drawer
) We are talking about the fundamental frequency/energy
signature of the universe. Did you read the Aether link that Jal posted.....your
comment is exactly the underlying implication idealized in the models there. It
may not be the final answer but I found it extremely enlightening, though I have
much more to read.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
The closest that I have come to this, is the opposite. The Fundamental "frequency" of the Universe being the limit. It would be non-linear: a maximum wavelength & minimum frequency, paired with a minimum wavelength & maximum frequency.
Ok now this is getting scary..... as this statement supports my contention of
what the Aether is. (I just got a "vision" of GE shaking his head and pulling a
gun out of a drawer
signature of the universe. Did you read the Aether link that Jal posted.....your
comment is exactly the underlying implication idealized in the models there. It
may not be the final answer but I found it extremely enlightening, though I have
much more to read.
Regards,
LL
Hi C2,
Is it a velocity problem or a phase/polarity timing "issue"? Recall what I
proposed about the slits inducing phase timing delays along the wavefronts.
The velocity c is the same, but if there are timing delays induced into parts of
the propagating wavefront due to interacting with other "disruptive" EM fields
then the end results might deceptively appear to be a velocity problem.
Comments?
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
Velocity problem .. major
Is it a velocity problem or a phase/polarity timing "issue"? Recall what I
proposed about the slits inducing phase timing delays along the wavefronts.
The velocity c is the same, but if there are timing delays induced into parts of
the propagating wavefront due to interacting with other "disruptive" EM fields
then the end results might deceptively appear to be a velocity problem.
Comments?
Regards,
LL
C2,
I see one gaussian distribution peak, comprised of one fundamental peak and
six "ordered" peaks - 2 second order, 2 third order, and 2 fourth order peaks,
spaced equally from the centerline along each side of the fundamental peak.
The ordered peaks are aligned according to the energy or phase angles of the
photons that created the overall pattern. There was interference signal mixing at
some point that created the pattern and it doesn't appear to be at the screen, IMO.
Explain how you see it, because I am not getting the point that you are
trying to make. I'm also still awaiting an explanation of how your model
creates this pattern. Can you do that without changing the subject?
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
Please, just write that you only see one peak.
I see one gaussian distribution peak, comprised of one fundamental peak and
six "ordered" peaks - 2 second order, 2 third order, and 2 fourth order peaks,
spaced equally from the centerline along each side of the fundamental peak.
The ordered peaks are aligned according to the energy or phase angles of the
photons that created the overall pattern. There was interference signal mixing at
some point that created the pattern and it doesn't appear to be at the screen, IMO.
Explain how you see it, because I am not getting the point that you are
trying to make. I'm also still awaiting an explanation of how your model
creates this pattern. Can you do that without changing the subject?
Regards,
LL
C2,
Look at the title along the Y axis.... what is that telling you/us? How does that
affect your perception of the experiment?
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
Regards,
LL
Look at the title along the Y axis.... what is that telling you/us? How does that
affect your perception of the experiment?
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
Regards,
LL
Hello TRoc, C2, LL, GE, et al.
I'm working on it. My latest possible explanation for what happens at the slit/edge is predicated on Bloch waves and bounded electron radiation. Metallic slits are also affected by free electron refraction. An EM wave sets up a harmonic feedback from the electrons at or near the surface of the slit edge. This oscillating field generates a variable/changing potential that affects how fast the light's EM fields can change. This results in a pulsed speed change in the phase of the light near the slit edge.
This is still an idea in progress so anyone can add to it as it evolves but it is a start (at least I hope so).

QUOTE
Montec, get us out of here!
I'm working on it. My latest possible explanation for what happens at the slit/edge is predicated on Bloch waves and bounded electron radiation. Metallic slits are also affected by free electron refraction. An EM wave sets up a harmonic feedback from the electrons at or near the surface of the slit edge. This oscillating field generates a variable/changing potential that affects how fast the light's EM fields can change. This results in a pulsed speed change in the phase of the light near the slit edge.
This is still an idea in progress so anyone can add to it as it evolves but it is a start (at least I hope so).
Hi all,
C2-
LL-
LL- Is it a velocity problem or a phase/polarity timing "issue"? Recall what I proposed about the slits inducing phase timing delays along the wavefronts.
The velocity c is the same, but if there are timing delays induced into parts of
the propagating wavefront due to interacting with other "disruptive" EM fields
then the end results might deceptively appear to be a velocity problem.
Putting "photons" in quotes, keeping them "theoretical", or "heuristic" even, does something to address this problem. Remember, neither Planck nor Einstein agreed with the later add-ons and alterations of their hypotheses regarding quanta of energy.
If there is "nothing" traveling, in the particle sense, there is no velocity. What we have then, is a constant ratio of meters and seconds, as delineated by the inverse symmetrical measuring concepts of frequency and wavelength. These are familiar in "wave" terms, but we know that there is no "medium" that is undulating, and transferring/transmitting the energy.
This is consistent with Special Relativity. The EM waves self propagate, due to the electric and magnetic properties of free space. No Aether, as in a medium, but this does not mean we can not (or do not) have "wavelets" present, to perform the duty of conservation of energy. This is consistent with the Black Body Curve of the Cosmic Microwave Background. If we were to say that these wavelets (CMB) were the medium, we would go right back to the problem of what medium do they travel in? Keeping EM propagation the way it is, without the need for a medium, yet allowing waves to do what they do, which is to interact according to a basic set of rules of Resonance, and we have full agreement with our "measured" body of data.
If "time" is "not experienced" by the "photon", how can it have a "velocity"? You might want to say, "well, we have this thing called proper time", and so forth. I think a much more reasonable conclusion, is that the "photon" is not "traveling" at all. The emission and the absorption events are "the same" to the "photon". No time in between, no space in between; they are equivalent, after all.
Montec has given us another nudge. Guess in what direction?
"Bloch waves", are "..generally treated in the different forms of the dynamical theory of diffraction." I threw that out there a while back, saying that it has been said, in different terms already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_theory_of_diffraction
Unlike the kinematic theory of diffraction which describes the approximate position of Bragg or Laue diffraction peaks in reciprocal space, dynamical theory corrects for refraction, shape and width of the peaks, extinction and interference effects.
We still have much more ground to cover, but as Montec said, "it's a start".
But the REAL icing on the cake is this new link he has found: http://www.weather.nps.navy.mil/~psguest/E...module_2_8.html
I would suggest that you go right to figure 4, and play the animation. Here is the caption:
We still have much more ground to cover, but as Montec said, "it's a start".
But the REAL icing on the cake is this new link he has found: http://www.weather.nps.navy.mil/~psguest/E...module_2_8.html
I would suggest that you go right to figure 4, and play the animation. Here is the caption: Figure 4. Spreading of re-radiation. When an initial EM packet (indicated by the blue waves and phase lines) causes a bounded electron to accelerate, the resulting re-radiation (red waves and phase lines) ) spreads out. It is strongest in the same axis as the initial signal, but energy goes in other directions also. The initial radiation is from a distant source, therefore the phase lines are virtually straight and parallel. The re-radiation spreads out from the electron, therefore the phase lines are curved.
C2-
QUOTE
Velocity problem .. major
LL-
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Velocity problem .. major |
LL- Is it a velocity problem or a phase/polarity timing "issue"? Recall what I proposed about the slits inducing phase timing delays along the wavefronts.
The velocity c is the same, but if there are timing delays induced into parts of
the propagating wavefront due to interacting with other "disruptive" EM fields
then the end results might deceptively appear to be a velocity problem.
Putting "photons" in quotes, keeping them "theoretical", or "heuristic" even, does something to address this problem. Remember, neither Planck nor Einstein agreed with the later add-ons and alterations of their hypotheses regarding quanta of energy.
If there is "nothing" traveling, in the particle sense, there is no velocity. What we have then, is a constant ratio of meters and seconds, as delineated by the inverse symmetrical measuring concepts of frequency and wavelength. These are familiar in "wave" terms, but we know that there is no "medium" that is undulating, and transferring/transmitting the energy.
This is consistent with Special Relativity. The EM waves self propagate, due to the electric and magnetic properties of free space. No Aether, as in a medium, but this does not mean we can not (or do not) have "wavelets" present, to perform the duty of conservation of energy. This is consistent with the Black Body Curve of the Cosmic Microwave Background. If we were to say that these wavelets (CMB) were the medium, we would go right back to the problem of what medium do they travel in? Keeping EM propagation the way it is, without the need for a medium, yet allowing waves to do what they do, which is to interact according to a basic set of rules of Resonance, and we have full agreement with our "measured" body of data.
If "time" is "not experienced" by the "photon", how can it have a "velocity"? You might want to say, "well, we have this thing called proper time", and so forth. I think a much more reasonable conclusion, is that the "photon" is not "traveling" at all. The emission and the absorption events are "the same" to the "photon". No time in between, no space in between; they are equivalent, after all.
Montec has given us another nudge. Guess in what direction?
"Bloch waves", are "..generally treated in the different forms of the dynamical theory of diffraction." I threw that out there a while back, saying that it has been said, in different terms already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_theory_of_diffraction
QUOTE
In a wider sense, similar treatment is related to the interaction of light with optical band-gap materials or related wave problems in acoustics.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In a wider sense, similar treatment is related to the interaction of light with optical band-gap materials or related wave problems in acoustics. |
Unlike the kinematic theory of diffraction which describes the approximate position of Bragg or Laue diffraction peaks in reciprocal space, dynamical theory corrects for refraction, shape and width of the peaks, extinction and interference effects.
QUOTE
Anomalous absorption effects take place due to a standing wave patterns of two wave fields. Absorption is stronger if the standing wave has its anti-nodes on the lattice planes, i.e. where the absorbing atoms are, and weaker, if the anti-nodes are shifted between the planes. The standing wave shifts from one condition to the other on each side of the Darwin plateau which gives the latter an asymmetric shape.
We still have much more ground to cover, but as Montec said, "it's a start".
But the REAL icing on the cake is this new link he has found: http://www.weather.nps.navy.mil/~psguest/E...module_2_8.html
I would suggest that you go right to figure 4, and play the animation. Here is the caption:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Anomalous absorption effects take place due to a standing wave patterns of two wave fields. Absorption is stronger if the standing wave has its anti-nodes on the lattice planes, i.e. where the absorbing atoms are, and weaker, if the anti-nodes are shifted between the planes. The standing wave shifts from one condition to the other on each side of the Darwin plateau which gives the latter an asymmetric shape. |
We still have much more ground to cover, but as Montec said, "it's a start".
But the REAL icing on the cake is this new link he has found: http://www.weather.nps.navy.mil/~psguest/E...module_2_8.html
I would suggest that you go right to figure 4, and play the animation. Here is the caption: Figure 4. Spreading of re-radiation. When an initial EM packet (indicated by the blue waves and phase lines) causes a bounded electron to accelerate, the resulting re-radiation (red waves and phase lines) ) spreads out. It is strongest in the same axis as the initial signal, but energy goes in other directions also. The initial radiation is from a distant source, therefore the phase lines are virtually straight and parallel. The re-radiation spreads out from the electron, therefore the phase lines are curved.
(emphasis added)
and:
and:
QUOTE
IR, Visible, UV and Higher Frequencies
These frequencies are so great that the bounded electrons are not able to immediately respond to the fluctuating EM fields. This causes a delay in the re-radiation that is more due to the delayed electron acceleration than the angle effects described above. The higher the frequency, the more delayed (relative to the wavelength) the electron acceleration becomes. Therefore in these frequency ranges, the index of refraction is a function of frequency. Higher frequencies are slowed down more and have a higher index of refraction. Therefore, higher frequencies are more affected by index of refraction variations and refract (bend) more than lower frequencies in these ranges. These frequencies are also too great for electrons to shift the orientation of a bipolar molecules, therefore water vapor does not increase the index of refraction. The re-radiation and refraction still does depend on the number of bounded electrons and atoms in the air, therefore air density essentially is what controls refraction. This means temperature gradients can create conditions where IR, visible etc. rays will bend. But unlike VHF, UHF and EHF, the bending depends on frequency.
(emphasis added)These frequencies are so great that the bounded electrons are not able to immediately respond to the fluctuating EM fields. This causes a delay in the re-radiation that is more due to the delayed electron acceleration than the angle effects described above. The higher the frequency, the more delayed (relative to the wavelength) the electron acceleration becomes. Therefore in these frequency ranges, the index of refraction is a function of frequency. Higher frequencies are slowed down more and have a higher index of refraction. Therefore, higher frequencies are more affected by index of refraction variations and refract (bend) more than lower frequencies in these ranges. These frequencies are also too great for electrons to shift the orientation of a bipolar molecules, therefore water vapor does not increase the index of refraction. The re-radiation and refraction still does depend on the number of bounded electrons and atoms in the air, therefore air density essentially is what controls refraction. This means temperature gradients can create conditions where IR, visible etc. rays will bend. But unlike VHF, UHF and EHF, the bending depends on frequency.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| IR, Visible, UV and Higher Frequencies These frequencies are so great that the bounded electrons are not able to immediately respond to the fluctuating EM fields. This causes a delay in the re-radiation that is more due to the delayed electron acceleration than the angle effects described above. The higher the frequency, the more delayed (relative to the wavelength) the electron acceleration becomes. Therefore in these frequency ranges, the index of refraction is a function of frequency. Higher frequencies are slowed down more and have a higher index of refraction. Therefore, higher frequencies are more affected by index of refraction variations and refract (bend) more than lower frequencies in these ranges. These frequencies are also too great for electrons to shift the orientation of a bipolar molecules, therefore water vapor does not increase the index of refraction. The re-radiation and refraction still does depend on the number of bounded electrons and atoms in the air, therefore air density essentially is what controls refraction. This means temperature gradients can create conditions where IR, visible etc. rays will bend. But unlike VHF, UHF and EHF, the bending depends on frequency. |
(emphasis added)
Summary
We have seen how bounded electrons interact with EM radiation to cause a slowing of the phase speed. Incoming radiation cause the electrons to vibrate, which induces new EM waves. These new or re-radiated waves propagate at different angles from the electron sources. The combination of the original radiation with flat phase lines with the re-radiation with curved phase lines from the electrons creates a resultant wave that is delayed from the original. This delay increases the index of refraction and causes bending of the rays if gradients in index of refraction are present. These gradients are due to variations in humidity, temperature and pressure.
Summary
We have seen how bounded electrons interact with EM radiation to cause a slowing of the phase speed. Incoming radiation cause the electrons to vibrate, which induces new EM waves. These new or re-radiated waves propagate at different angles from the electron sources. The combination of the original radiation with flat phase lines with the re-radiation with curved phase lines from the electrons creates a resultant wave that is delayed from the original. This delay increases the index of refraction and causes bending of the rays if gradients in index of refraction are present. These gradients are due to variations in humidity, temperature and pressure.
(emphasis added)
Hopefully, reading this in someone else's' words will help to understand what I'm saying. "New waves" ("photons") does NOT mean we violate the Planck equation: we are NO WHERE NEAR 1 Hz with this light experiment. We are not dividing down to that level. The "intensity" measurements will not change here, C2.
I think that we should lift our earlier restrictions now, concerning "trying to keep this discussion on the basic (pre-laser & QM interpretation) side. We are still saying the same things about Fresnel & Huygens: they work, but we can't take them with us to the next level.
regards,
T.Roc
Hopefully, reading this in someone else's' words will help to understand what I'm saying. "New waves" ("photons") does NOT mean we violate the Planck equation: we are NO WHERE NEAR 1 Hz with this light experiment. We are not dividing down to that level. The "intensity" measurements will not change here, C2.
I think that we should lift our earlier restrictions now, concerning "trying to keep this discussion on the basic (pre-laser & QM interpretation) side. We are still saying the same things about Fresnel & Huygens: they work, but we can't take them with us to the next level.
regards,
T.Roc
Hi Confused2, TRoc, Jal, Montec, Laserlight et al,
I am not entering a vague argument about the "Aether" based on "waves" since "waves" are not an "Aether". And I will not be coerced into discussing "Aethers" of all kinds since nobody has ever found an "Aether" and nobody knows, as a consequence of that non-result, that we are able to discuss unknown properties of the "undiscovered Aether". I could just as authoritatively discuss the numbers of angels that can dance on the head of a pin since the "properties" of angels are also equally unknown. But I am sure that a million "eager souls" who would only love the opportunity to begin a theological discussion in the middle of this wandering and vague debate on what is supposed to be physics.
I had a quick look at Jal's papers and I am unsure what can be derived without some kind of interpretation of how this fits into this current topic of the Double Slit Experiment (but no matter... much of what is being bandied about seems only peripherally involved with the basics at this stage). Let me see if I can make some sense of this rather poorly organized cacophony of ideas. It seems you are trying to invoke a realistic interpretation of how electromagnetic waves can be divided into smaller and smaller sources each of which spread only in the forward direction at the speed of light on the surface of a spherical expanding shell. If you could explain that then the summation of a large number of individual sources would make sense such as that interference pattern made up of a "slit" in the form of a "plus sign". Clearly the double slit equation does not explain anything but the most basic case of ideal interference between two coherent sources. I understand that Confused2 will not move from the solution from that one simple generalization to the real world where there is "far more going on". Laserlight seems to be suggesting that:
I am not entering a vague argument about the "Aether" based on "waves" since "waves" are not an "Aether". And I will not be coerced into discussing "Aethers" of all kinds since nobody has ever found an "Aether" and nobody knows, as a consequence of that non-result, that we are able to discuss unknown properties of the "undiscovered Aether". I could just as authoritatively discuss the numbers of angels that can dance on the head of a pin since the "properties" of angels are also equally unknown. But I am sure that a million "eager souls" who would only love the opportunity to begin a theological discussion in the middle of this wandering and vague debate on what is supposed to be physics.
I had a quick look at Jal's papers and I am unsure what can be derived without some kind of interpretation of how this fits into this current topic of the Double Slit Experiment (but no matter... much of what is being bandied about seems only peripherally involved with the basics at this stage). Let me see if I can make some sense of this rather poorly organized cacophony of ideas. It seems you are trying to invoke a realistic interpretation of how electromagnetic waves can be divided into smaller and smaller sources each of which spread only in the forward direction at the speed of light on the surface of a spherical expanding shell. If you could explain that then the summation of a large number of individual sources would make sense such as that interference pattern made up of a "slit" in the form of a "plus sign". Clearly the double slit equation does not explain anything but the most basic case of ideal interference between two coherent sources. I understand that Confused2 will not move from the solution from that one simple generalization to the real world where there is "far more going on". Laserlight seems to be suggesting that:
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
QUOTE (TRoc+)
The closest that I have come to this, is the opposite. The Fundamental "frequency" of the Universe being the limit. It would be non-linear: a maximum wavelength & minimum frequency, paired with a minimum wavelength & maximum frequency.
I took this as being said "tongue in cheek" and aimed sarcastically at C2 for misstating the obvious. I have stated that a propagating wavefront has intensity and is divisible down to the number of discrete, but simultaneous, atomic electron emission events that formed the wavefront. A wave should be divisible down to a single "photon" of some quantum EM equivalence. In other words it must be able to fulfill a full EM pulse wave phase cycle. You cannot divide below the phase of a single wavelet and maintain an EM cycle. There are an integral number of wavelets in a wavefront, that cannot be divided below an answer of 1.
I though by now you would all realize that the individual photon's wavefront cannot be really known and it is the result of "searching all paths" in the Feynman sense. The photon particle is "indivisible" and I also thought this would also be "obvious" and anyone who has done any experimental work will see that this is indeed the case... at least when dealing with phenomena in "free space". Of course photons can be "joined" and "split" under very controlled conditions using highly coherent situations. We have that in holographic "reconstruction" and also in parametric down conversion as previously noted. This is not "debatable" since they are the results of experiments that are repeatable. What is also the result of experiment is the distribution of energy in individual photons can be moved from one point on its wavefront into longitudinal modes as shown by those images pointed to by TRoc earlier on:
Shaping of a Terahertz Pulse by a Slit in a thick screen
This is a very interesting result that shows that a single half-cycle terahertz photons or indeed a number of coherent half-cycle terahertz photons are "smeared out" into a broad distribution of wavelets. The question is since this is showing a large number of wavelets is this taking the original single pulse with a narrow expression on the wavefront and recombining the energy into a different group of frequencies and new photons? Alternatively is it delaying some photons so that they now comprise a section of sinusoidal radiation? I think the latter must be the case. The "pipe" is a "resonant chamber" that oscillates at a particular frequency. The incident photons "blow" into this "pipe" and it sets up standing waves with anti-nodes at both ends of that pipe. This is clearly an "oscillator circuit"... in an under-damped cavity... that will destroy the qubit that is being carried by the original wave photons. There is an experimental paper that accompanies this discussion here which indicates what happens for a single slit modifying the slit separation and the slit thickness independently and together...
Spatiotemporal shaping of terahertz pulses
What it reports is this... for slits (or holes) with "thin" cross section relative to the wavelength of the radiation, severe dispersion of the high frequencies will occur and this ultimately leads to a relatively sharp roll-off frequency for a specific slit width of
f(rolloff) = 1.5C/Πd
For thick cross sections these slits (or holes) behave just like organ pipes or cavities.
The "dispersion" of high frequencies is well known and is used in many instruments at optical frequencies. Note in fig 3 that the pulse transmitted by the thick filter is chirped and oscillates with a period that decreases as the slit width decreases. In the useful case of the former thin slit (or hole) a typical application is this kind of Fourier optical processor which utilizes the dispersion spatially when passing the "mask" which is usually a circular aperture but an even better mask is one which also includes airy disks in the opaque mask.
Fourier Optical Image Processor
Here the input scene become a multiple source (you could have a single point source but it is often more interesting to place a photographic image there as shown. This is a "multiple source" illuminated by coherent light. The first lens could also be a hole as in a "camera obscura" (or it could be a slit... one of two in a double slit experiment). A mask is places around the lens to limit the aperture of the image to a usable portion of the lens (lower the aberration). On a "screen" we now have a multiple diffraction pattern set up which is formed from the overlapping of millions of coherent sources originating from the image plane. Each point source is singly and airy disk as we all have seen. All these airy disks overlap and interfere with each other "constructively" to form an inverted image of all the individual sources on the plane (marked diffraction pattern). This is equivalent to a screen in the DSE. The image contains a repeating pattern of horizontal bars (scanlines) superimposed over the image. These two "artifacts" .... the image of a goblet and the image of the bars are "dispersed" into their complex frequencies radially and the horizontal bars are shown as a series of bright spots in a vertical plane and the goblet is a blob of frequencies in the center of the plane. These frequencies increase as we move to the edge of the Fourier transform plane (the "diffraction pattern" in this diagram which is brought to a sharp focus by the lens) and at the very center of the plane is a point which is the DC (or base intensity) component where much of the energy in the image is concentrated.

Fourier Transform
I would point out that in the case of a single pinhole the image is focussed less accurately at any point in the space behind the aperture as in the DSE this is identical to stopping a lens down to a tiny point where all "rays" pass only through the center of the "pinhole lens". A specially prepared mask with two chevrons removes cleanly these bright spots in the spatial hologram at the "diffraction pattern" from the overall complete diffraction pattern by simply blocking these Fourier components in frequency and spatial dispersion, the component which contains the scanline artifact. If the light is then allowed to pass through this mask the Hologram (spatial dispersion of the frequencies into their basic fringes) of that source plane, what remains is then focussed on a "screen" using a similar lens (usually with the same stopped aperture and the same focal length placed symmetrically on the other side of the "hologram of the 2D image sources"), reversing the hologram forming process but removing through selection the spatial components of the "scanline artifact" (those vertical row of dots in the "diffraction pattern").
This shows how the first lens makes a Fourier transform of the 2D image array of individual sources (at a single frequency... the frequency of the illuminating laser) and the "diffraction pattern" is where this multiple source plane is now sitting as optical frequencies in that "hologram" of the frequencies. A portion of this frequency hologram is removed that relates to this scanline artifact. It is a series of bars in the original image which have a series of Fourier frequency components now spatially orthogonal in this Fourier plane to the original bars. They have been dispersed radially outwards the highest frequencies towards the "rim". The fine detail in this image in in the high frequencies. These components can be selectively removed using the mask.
In summary... the "plane coherent radiation" illuminates the 2D sources in the image transparency. These acts as a large number of secondary spreading sources of different intensity, each one resulting in a "frequency transformed image" in the frequency domain at the position of the "diffraction pattern". The images of all sources occupy the same frequency space with no relative displacement even though originally the sources were displaced physically in space (in the plane of the transparency). Each and every spatial frequency in each and every spatially dispersed source now falls into that single complex plane of "diffraction pattern" where each individual spatial frequency in all sources occupies a single point on a perfect "circle" whose radius is proportional to the spatial frequency.
The position around that circle determines the spatial alignment of a single frequency component at that azimuth from all the original sources as a complex phase since this "point" is the sum of all similar azimuthal frequencies ... not summed as scalars but as complex vectors.... This pattern defines "source particles" fixed in space, this is a two dimensional sources but this could just as easily define three dimensional sources or "particles". We can filter this source information to enhance or express certain attributes in the original sources or even amplify them if we choose using sophisticated computer techniques that parallel this optical process mathematically. This is the science of Fourier image processing used by Hubble, Geophysics or in Military areas where more information is required from a small area of the image. Most of this is exactly duplicated using this simple optical system using a coherent source of plane radiation and two good quality lenses and their associated elements and this is all that optics is about. Some information is lost from the original source outside the evanescent zone, but there are theoretical techniques where this information may potentially be restored completing the description of particles everywhere.
The second lens reverses the transform in the first transformation restoring the 2D sources (with all depth information if required). If particles were composed of this information then a reconstruction of particles can be made as an optical entity. Suppose that a particle is composed of very high frequency "matter waves" and there was a technique in which the particle can be imaged in just this process then this would be a particle theory. "Physics" would be performed by the electromagnetic images of these objects that will obey the laws of conservation of energy. You may ask "where are these matter waves?" They must be everywhere and able to penetrate anything due to their incredibly high frequency.
Cheers
Shaping of a Terahertz Pulse by a Slit in a thick screen
This is a very interesting result that shows that a single half-cycle terahertz photons or indeed a number of coherent half-cycle terahertz photons are "smeared out" into a broad distribution of wavelets. The question is since this is showing a large number of wavelets is this taking the original single pulse with a narrow expression on the wavefront and recombining the energy into a different group of frequencies and new photons? Alternatively is it delaying some photons so that they now comprise a section of sinusoidal radiation? I think the latter must be the case. The "pipe" is a "resonant chamber" that oscillates at a particular frequency. The incident photons "blow" into this "pipe" and it sets up standing waves with anti-nodes at both ends of that pipe. This is clearly an "oscillator circuit"... in an under-damped cavity... that will destroy the qubit that is being carried by the original wave photons. There is an experimental paper that accompanies this discussion here which indicates what happens for a single slit modifying the slit separation and the slit thickness independently and together...
Spatiotemporal shaping of terahertz pulses
What it reports is this... for slits (or holes) with "thin" cross section relative to the wavelength of the radiation, severe dispersion of the high frequencies will occur and this ultimately leads to a relatively sharp roll-off frequency for a specific slit width of
f(rolloff) = 1.5C/Πd
For thick cross sections these slits (or holes) behave just like organ pipes or cavities.
The "dispersion" of high frequencies is well known and is used in many instruments at optical frequencies. Note in fig 3 that the pulse transmitted by the thick filter is chirped and oscillates with a period that decreases as the slit width decreases. In the useful case of the former thin slit (or hole) a typical application is this kind of Fourier optical processor which utilizes the dispersion spatially when passing the "mask" which is usually a circular aperture but an even better mask is one which also includes airy disks in the opaque mask.
Fourier Optical Image ProcessorHere the input scene become a multiple source (you could have a single point source but it is often more interesting to place a photographic image there as shown. This is a "multiple source" illuminated by coherent light. The first lens could also be a hole as in a "camera obscura" (or it could be a slit... one of two in a double slit experiment). A mask is places around the lens to limit the aperture of the image to a usable portion of the lens (lower the aberration). On a "screen" we now have a multiple diffraction pattern set up which is formed from the overlapping of millions of coherent sources originating from the image plane. Each point source is singly and airy disk as we all have seen. All these airy disks overlap and interfere with each other "constructively" to form an inverted image of all the individual sources on the plane (marked diffraction pattern). This is equivalent to a screen in the DSE. The image contains a repeating pattern of horizontal bars (scanlines) superimposed over the image. These two "artifacts" .... the image of a goblet and the image of the bars are "dispersed" into their complex frequencies radially and the horizontal bars are shown as a series of bright spots in a vertical plane and the goblet is a blob of frequencies in the center of the plane. These frequencies increase as we move to the edge of the Fourier transform plane (the "diffraction pattern" in this diagram which is brought to a sharp focus by the lens) and at the very center of the plane is a point which is the DC (or base intensity) component where much of the energy in the image is concentrated.

Fourier Transform
I would point out that in the case of a single pinhole the image is focussed less accurately at any point in the space behind the aperture as in the DSE this is identical to stopping a lens down to a tiny point where all "rays" pass only through the center of the "pinhole lens". A specially prepared mask with two chevrons removes cleanly these bright spots in the spatial hologram at the "diffraction pattern" from the overall complete diffraction pattern by simply blocking these Fourier components in frequency and spatial dispersion, the component which contains the scanline artifact. If the light is then allowed to pass through this mask the Hologram (spatial dispersion of the frequencies into their basic fringes) of that source plane, what remains is then focussed on a "screen" using a similar lens (usually with the same stopped aperture and the same focal length placed symmetrically on the other side of the "hologram of the 2D image sources"), reversing the hologram forming process but removing through selection the spatial components of the "scanline artifact" (those vertical row of dots in the "diffraction pattern").
This shows how the first lens makes a Fourier transform of the 2D image array of individual sources (at a single frequency... the frequency of the illuminating laser) and the "diffraction pattern" is where this multiple source plane is now sitting as optical frequencies in that "hologram" of the frequencies. A portion of this frequency hologram is removed that relates to this scanline artifact. It is a series of bars in the original image which have a series of Fourier frequency components now spatially orthogonal in this Fourier plane to the original bars. They have been dispersed radially outwards the highest frequencies towards the "rim". The fine detail in this image in in the high frequencies. These components can be selectively removed using the mask.
In summary... the "plane coherent radiation" illuminates the 2D sources in the image transparency. These acts as a large number of secondary spreading sources of different intensity, each one resulting in a "frequency transformed image" in the frequency domain at the position of the "diffraction pattern". The images of all sources occupy the same frequency space with no relative displacement even though originally the sources were displaced physically in space (in the plane of the transparency). Each and every spatial frequency in each and every spatially dispersed source now falls into that single complex plane of "diffraction pattern" where each individual spatial frequency in all sources occupies a single point on a perfect "circle" whose radius is proportional to the spatial frequency.
The position around that circle determines the spatial alignment of a single frequency component at that azimuth from all the original sources as a complex phase since this "point" is the sum of all similar azimuthal frequencies ... not summed as scalars but as complex vectors.... This pattern defines "source particles" fixed in space, this is a two dimensional sources but this could just as easily define three dimensional sources or "particles". We can filter this source information to enhance or express certain attributes in the original sources or even amplify them if we choose using sophisticated computer techniques that parallel this optical process mathematically. This is the science of Fourier image processing used by Hubble, Geophysics or in Military areas where more information is required from a small area of the image. Most of this is exactly duplicated using this simple optical system using a coherent source of plane radiation and two good quality lenses and their associated elements and this is all that optics is about. Some information is lost from the original source outside the evanescent zone, but there are theoretical techniques where this information may potentially be restored completing the description of particles everywhere.
The second lens reverses the transform in the first transformation restoring the 2D sources (with all depth information if required). If particles were composed of this information then a reconstruction of particles can be made as an optical entity. Suppose that a particle is composed of very high frequency "matter waves" and there was a technique in which the particle can be imaged in just this process then this would be a particle theory. "Physics" would be performed by the electromagnetic images of these objects that will obey the laws of conservation of energy. You may ask "where are these matter waves?" They must be everywhere and able to penetrate anything due to their incredibly high frequency.
Cheers
QUOTE (Laserlight+Mar 3 2007, 09:21 PM)
C2,
Look at the title along the Y axis.... what is that telling you/us? How does that
affect your perception of the experiment?
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
Regards,
LL
I cant stand it.
Look at the title along the Y axis.... what is that telling you/us? How does that
affect your perception of the experiment?
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
Regards,
LL
I cant stand it.
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 4 2007, 04:54 AM)
Hi Confused2, TRoc, Jal, Montec, Laserlight et al,
I am not entering a vague argument about the "Aether" based on "waves" since "waves" are not an "Aether". And I will not be coerced into discussing "Aethers" of all kinds since nobody has ever found an "Aether" and nobody knows, as a consequence of that non-result, that we are able to discuss unknown properties of the "undiscovered Aether". I could just as authoritatively discuss the numbers of angels that can dance on the head of a pin since the "properties" of angels are also equally unknown. But I am sure that a million "eager souls" who would only love the opportunity to begin a theological discussion in the middle of this wandering and vague debate on what is supposed to be physics.
I had a quick look at Jal's papers and I am unsure what can be derived without some kind of interpretation of how this fits into this current topic of the Double Slit Experiment (but no matter... much of what is being bandied about seems only peripherally involved with the basics at this stage). Let me see if I can make some sense of this rather poorly organized cacophony of ideas. It seems you are trying to invoke a realistic interpretation of how electromagnetic waves can be divided into smaller and smaller sources each of which spread only in the forward direction at the speed of light on the surface of a spherical expanding shell. If you could explain that then the summation of a large number of individual sources would make sense such as that interference pattern made up of a "slit" in the form of a "plus sign". Clearly the double slit equation does not explain anything but the most basic case of ideal interference between two coherent sources. I understand that Confused2 will not move from the solution from that one simple generalization to the real world where there is "far more going on". Laserlight seems to be suggesting that:
I though by now you would all realize that the individual photon's wavefront cannot be really known and it is the result of "searching all paths" in the Feynman sense. The photon particle is "indivisible" and I also thought this would also be "obvious" and anyone who has done any experimental work will see that this is indeed the case... at least when dealing with phenomena in "free space". Of course photons can be "joined" and "split" under very controlled conditions using highly coherent situations. We have that in holographic "reconstruction" and also in parametric down conversion as previously noted. This is not "debatable" since they are the results of experiments that are repeatable. What is also the result of experiment is the distribution of energy in individual photons can be moved from one point on its wavefront into longitudinal modes as shown by those images pointed to by TRoc earlier on:
Shaping of a Terahertz Pulse by a Slit in a thick screen
This is a very interesting result that shows that a single half-cycle terahertz photons or indeed a number of coherent half-cycle terahertz photons are "smeared out" into a broad distribution of wavelets. The question is since this is showing a large number of wavelets is this taking the original single pulse with a narrow expression on the wavefront and recombining the energy into a different group of frequencies and new photons? Alternatively is it delaying some photons so that they now comprise a section of sinusoidal radiation? I think the latter must be the case. The "pipe" is a "resonant chamber" that oscillates at a particular frequency. The incident photons "blow" into this "pipe" and it sets up standing waves with anti-nodes at both ends of that pipe. This is clearly an "oscillator circuit"... in an under-damped cavity... that will destroy the qubit that is being carried by the original wave photons. There is an experimental paper that accompanies this discussion here which indicates what happens for a single slit modifying the slit separation and the slit thickness independently and together...
Spatiotemporal shaping of terahertz pulses
What it reports is this... for slits (or holes) with "thin" cross section relative to the wavelength of the radiation, severe dispersion of the high frequencies will occur and this ultimately leads to a relatively sharp roll-off frequency for a specific slit width of
f(rolloff) = 1.5C/Πd
For thick cross sections these slits (or holes) behave just like organ pipes or cavities.
The "dispersion" of high frequencies is well known and is used in many instruments at optical frequencies. Note in fig 3 that the pulse transmitted by the thick filter is chirped and oscillates with a period that decreases as the slit width decreases. In the useful case of the former thin slit (or hole) a typical application is this kind of Fourier optical processor which utilizes the dispersion spatially when passing the "mask" which is usually a circular aperture but an even better mask is one which also includes airy disks in the opaque mask.
Fourier Optical Image Processor
Here the input scene become a multiple source (you could have a single point source but it is often more interesting to place a photographic image there as shown. This is a "multiple source" illuminated by coherent light. The first lens could also be a hole as in a "camera obscura" (or it could be a slit... one of two in a double slit experiment). A mask is places around the lens to limit the aperture of the image to a usable portion of the lens (lower the aberration). On a "screen" we now have a multiple diffraction pattern set up which is formed from the overlapping of millions of coherent sources originating from the image plane. Each point source is singly and airy disk as we all have seen. All these airy disks overlap and interfere with each other "constructively" to form an inverted image of all the individual sources on the plane (marked diffraction pattern). This is equivalent to a screen in the DSE. The image contains a repeating pattern of horizontal bars (scanlines) superimposed over the image. These two "artifacts" .... the image of a goblet and the image of the bars are "dispersed" into their complex frequencies radially and the horizontal bars are shown as a series of bright spots in a vertical plane and the goblet is a blob of frequencies in the center of the plane. These frequencies increase as we move to the edge of the Fourier transform plane (the "diffraction pattern" in this diagram which is brought to a sharp focus by the lens) and at the very center of the plane is a point which is the DC (or base intensity) component where much of the energy in the image is concentrated.

Fourier Transform
I would point out that in the case of a single pinhole the image is focussed less accurately at any point in the space behind the aperture as in the DSE this is identical to stopping a lens down to a tiny point where all "rays" pass only through the center of the "pinhole lens". A specially prepared mask with two chevrons removes cleanly these bright spots in the spatial hologram at the "diffraction pattern" from the overall complete diffraction pattern by simply blocking these Fourier components in frequency and spatial dispersion, the component which contains the scanline artifact. If the light is then allowed to pass through this mask the Hologram (spatial dispersion of the frequencies into their basic fringes) of that source plane, what remains is then focussed on a "screen" using a similar lens (usually with the same stopped aperture and the same focal length placed symmetrically on the other side of the "hologram of the 2D image sources"), reversing the hologram forming process but removing through selection the spatial components of the "scanline artifact" (those vertical row of dots in the "diffraction pattern").
This shows how the first lens makes a Fourier transform of the 2D image array of individual sources (at a single frequency... the frequency of the illuminating laser) and the "diffraction pattern" is where this multiple source plane is now sitting as optical frequencies in that "hologram" of the frequencies. A portion of this frequency hologram is removed that relates to this scanline artifact. It is a series of bars in the original image which have a series of Fourier frequency components now spatially orthogonal in this Fourier plane to the original bars. They have been dispersed radially outwards the highest frequencies towards the "rim". The fine detail in this image in in the high frequencies. These components can be selectively removed using the mask.
In summary... the "plane coherent radiation" illuminates the 2D sources in the image transparency. These acts as a large number of secondary spreading sources of different intensity, each one resulting in a "frequency transformed image" in the frequency domain at the position of the "diffraction pattern". The images of all sources occupy the same frequency space with no relative displacement even though originally the sources were displaced physically in space (in the plane of the transparency). Each and every spatial frequency in each and every spatially dispersed source now falls into that single complex plane of "diffraction pattern" where each individual spatial frequency in all sources occupies a single point on a perfect "circle" whose radius is proportional to the spatial frequency.
The position around that circle determines the spatial alignment of a single frequency component at that azimuth from all the original sources as a complex phase since this "point" is the sum of all similar azimuthal frequencies ... not summed as scalars but as complex vectors.... This pattern defines "source particles" fixed in space, this is a two dimensional sources but this could just as easily define three dimensional sources or "particles". We can filter this source information to enhance or express certain attributes in the original sources or even amplify them if we choose using sophisticated computer techniques that parallel this optical process mathematically. This is the science of Fourier image processing used by Hubble, Geophysics or in Military areas where more information is required from a small area of the image. Most of this is exactly duplicated using this simple optical system using a coherent source of plane radiation and two good quality lenses and their associated elements and this is all that optics is about. Some information is lost from the original source outside the evanescent zone, but there are theoretical techniques where this information may potentially be restored completing the description of particles everywhere.
The second lens reverses the transform in the first transformation restoring the 2D sources (with all depth information if required). If particles were composed of this information then a reconstruction of particles can be made as an optical entity. Suppose that a particle is composed of very high frequency "matter waves" and there was a technique in which the particle can be imaged in just this process then this would be a particle theory. "Physics" would be performed by the electromagnetic images of these objects that will obey the laws of conservation of energy. You may ask "where are these matter waves?" They must be everywhere and able to penetrate anything due to their incredibly high frequency.
Cheers
Are you saying matter waves are really solid objects that penetrate other matter? The amplitude of the matter waves dropps off so rapidly that they appear to have edges and to and definite boundaries. They dont extend into infinity.
I am not entering a vague argument about the "Aether" based on "waves" since "waves" are not an "Aether". And I will not be coerced into discussing "Aethers" of all kinds since nobody has ever found an "Aether" and nobody knows, as a consequence of that non-result, that we are able to discuss unknown properties of the "undiscovered Aether". I could just as authoritatively discuss the numbers of angels that can dance on the head of a pin since the "properties" of angels are also equally unknown. But I am sure that a million "eager souls" who would only love the opportunity to begin a theological discussion in the middle of this wandering and vague debate on what is supposed to be physics.
I had a quick look at Jal's papers and I am unsure what can be derived without some kind of interpretation of how this fits into this current topic of the Double Slit Experiment (but no matter... much of what is being bandied about seems only peripherally involved with the basics at this stage). Let me see if I can make some sense of this rather poorly organized cacophony of ideas. It seems you are trying to invoke a realistic interpretation of how electromagnetic waves can be divided into smaller and smaller sources each of which spread only in the forward direction at the speed of light on the surface of a spherical expanding shell. If you could explain that then the summation of a large number of individual sources would make sense such as that interference pattern made up of a "slit" in the form of a "plus sign". Clearly the double slit equation does not explain anything but the most basic case of ideal interference between two coherent sources. I understand that Confused2 will not move from the solution from that one simple generalization to the real world where there is "far more going on". Laserlight seems to be suggesting that:
I though by now you would all realize that the individual photon's wavefront cannot be really known and it is the result of "searching all paths" in the Feynman sense. The photon particle is "indivisible" and I also thought this would also be "obvious" and anyone who has done any experimental work will see that this is indeed the case... at least when dealing with phenomena in "free space". Of course photons can be "joined" and "split" under very controlled conditions using highly coherent situations. We have that in holographic "reconstruction" and also in parametric down conversion as previously noted. This is not "debatable" since they are the results of experiments that are repeatable. What is also the result of experiment is the distribution of energy in individual photons can be moved from one point on its wavefront into longitudinal modes as shown by those images pointed to by TRoc earlier on:
Shaping of a Terahertz Pulse by a Slit in a thick screen
This is a very interesting result that shows that a single half-cycle terahertz photons or indeed a number of coherent half-cycle terahertz photons are "smeared out" into a broad distribution of wavelets. The question is since this is showing a large number of wavelets is this taking the original single pulse with a narrow expression on the wavefront and recombining the energy into a different group of frequencies and new photons? Alternatively is it delaying some photons so that they now comprise a section of sinusoidal radiation? I think the latter must be the case. The "pipe" is a "resonant chamber" that oscillates at a particular frequency. The incident photons "blow" into this "pipe" and it sets up standing waves with anti-nodes at both ends of that pipe. This is clearly an "oscillator circuit"... in an under-damped cavity... that will destroy the qubit that is being carried by the original wave photons. There is an experimental paper that accompanies this discussion here which indicates what happens for a single slit modifying the slit separation and the slit thickness independently and together...
Spatiotemporal shaping of terahertz pulses
What it reports is this... for slits (or holes) with "thin" cross section relative to the wavelength of the radiation, severe dispersion of the high frequencies will occur and this ultimately leads to a relatively sharp roll-off frequency for a specific slit width of
f(rolloff) = 1.5C/Πd
For thick cross sections these slits (or holes) behave just like organ pipes or cavities.
The "dispersion" of high frequencies is well known and is used in many instruments at optical frequencies. Note in fig 3 that the pulse transmitted by the thick filter is chirped and oscillates with a period that decreases as the slit width decreases. In the useful case of the former thin slit (or hole) a typical application is this kind of Fourier optical processor which utilizes the dispersion spatially when passing the "mask" which is usually a circular aperture but an even better mask is one which also includes airy disks in the opaque mask.
Fourier Optical Image ProcessorHere the input scene become a multiple source (you could have a single point source but it is often more interesting to place a photographic image there as shown. This is a "multiple source" illuminated by coherent light. The first lens could also be a hole as in a "camera obscura" (or it could be a slit... one of two in a double slit experiment). A mask is places around the lens to limit the aperture of the image to a usable portion of the lens (lower the aberration). On a "screen" we now have a multiple diffraction pattern set up which is formed from the overlapping of millions of coherent sources originating from the image plane. Each point source is singly and airy disk as we all have seen. All these airy disks overlap and interfere with each other "constructively" to form an inverted image of all the individual sources on the plane (marked diffraction pattern). This is equivalent to a screen in the DSE. The image contains a repeating pattern of horizontal bars (scanlines) superimposed over the image. These two "artifacts" .... the image of a goblet and the image of the bars are "dispersed" into their complex frequencies radially and the horizontal bars are shown as a series of bright spots in a vertical plane and the goblet is a blob of frequencies in the center of the plane. These frequencies increase as we move to the edge of the Fourier transform plane (the "diffraction pattern" in this diagram which is brought to a sharp focus by the lens) and at the very center of the plane is a point which is the DC (or base intensity) component where much of the energy in the image is concentrated.

Fourier Transform
I would point out that in the case of a single pinhole the image is focussed less accurately at any point in the space behind the aperture as in the DSE this is identical to stopping a lens down to a tiny point where all "rays" pass only through the center of the "pinhole lens". A specially prepared mask with two chevrons removes cleanly these bright spots in the spatial hologram at the "diffraction pattern" from the overall complete diffraction pattern by simply blocking these Fourier components in frequency and spatial dispersion, the component which contains the scanline artifact. If the light is then allowed to pass through this mask the Hologram (spatial dispersion of the frequencies into their basic fringes) of that source plane, what remains is then focussed on a "screen" using a similar lens (usually with the same stopped aperture and the same focal length placed symmetrically on the other side of the "hologram of the 2D image sources"), reversing the hologram forming process but removing through selection the spatial components of the "scanline artifact" (those vertical row of dots in the "diffraction pattern").
This shows how the first lens makes a Fourier transform of the 2D image array of individual sources (at a single frequency... the frequency of the illuminating laser) and the "diffraction pattern" is where this multiple source plane is now sitting as optical frequencies in that "hologram" of the frequencies. A portion of this frequency hologram is removed that relates to this scanline artifact. It is a series of bars in the original image which have a series of Fourier frequency components now spatially orthogonal in this Fourier plane to the original bars. They have been dispersed radially outwards the highest frequencies towards the "rim". The fine detail in this image in in the high frequencies. These components can be selectively removed using the mask.
In summary... the "plane coherent radiation" illuminates the 2D sources in the image transparency. These acts as a large number of secondary spreading sources of different intensity, each one resulting in a "frequency transformed image" in the frequency domain at the position of the "diffraction pattern". The images of all sources occupy the same frequency space with no relative displacement even though originally the sources were displaced physically in space (in the plane of the transparency). Each and every spatial frequency in each and every spatially dispersed source now falls into that single complex plane of "diffraction pattern" where each individual spatial frequency in all sources occupies a single point on a perfect "circle" whose radius is proportional to the spatial frequency.
The position around that circle determines the spatial alignment of a single frequency component at that azimuth from all the original sources as a complex phase since this "point" is the sum of all similar azimuthal frequencies ... not summed as scalars but as complex vectors.... This pattern defines "source particles" fixed in space, this is a two dimensional sources but this could just as easily define three dimensional sources or "particles". We can filter this source information to enhance or express certain attributes in the original sources or even amplify them if we choose using sophisticated computer techniques that parallel this optical process mathematically. This is the science of Fourier image processing used by Hubble, Geophysics or in Military areas where more information is required from a small area of the image. Most of this is exactly duplicated using this simple optical system using a coherent source of plane radiation and two good quality lenses and their associated elements and this is all that optics is about. Some information is lost from the original source outside the evanescent zone, but there are theoretical techniques where this information may potentially be restored completing the description of particles everywhere.
The second lens reverses the transform in the first transformation restoring the 2D sources (with all depth information if required). If particles were composed of this information then a reconstruction of particles can be made as an optical entity. Suppose that a particle is composed of very high frequency "matter waves" and there was a technique in which the particle can be imaged in just this process then this would be a particle theory. "Physics" would be performed by the electromagnetic images of these objects that will obey the laws of conservation of energy. You may ask "where are these matter waves?" They must be everywhere and able to penetrate anything due to their incredibly high frequency.
Cheers
Are you saying matter waves are really solid objects that penetrate other matter? The amplitude of the matter waves dropps off so rapidly that they appear to have edges and to and definite boundaries. They dont extend into infinity.
I'll try to take a back seat until you guys catch up with Huygens (1629-1695) and Thomas Young (1773-1829).
IMHO, once you can use the DSE to measure the wavelength of light you have a tool that can be used to gain a greater insight into the nature of light itself.. until then I don't think you have anything useful.
Best wishes,
-C2.
IMHO, once you can use the DSE to measure the wavelength of light you have a tool that can be used to gain a greater insight into the nature of light itself.. until then I don't think you have anything useful.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hi Neil Farbstein,
Look up Neutron bombs.
QUOTE (Neil Farbstein+)
Are you saying matter waves are really solid objects that penetrate other matter? The amplitude of the matter waves dropps off so rapidly that they appear to have edges and to and definite boundaries. They dont extend into infinity.
As sources of "matter" seen from a distance these must look like antinodes. As "sources" the sum of the fourier components in free space sum to a "dynamic minimum" through least action... but sum to particles with 'edges" and "solidity" where we identify the matter, bright matter solitons. These "particle surfaces" are actually light cone walls caused by relativistic effects I have explained previously. If a single particle is accelerated relative to other "inertial" particles an EM wave appears which opposes the change in the state of motion being an unbalanced condition very similar to Lenz's Law of Electromagnetism. The action is as if the "force" was coming from the "background" of our Universe and the most distant parts but is only seen during phases of relative non-inertial acceleration.
As a simple example consider an infinitely long hollow solenoid containing a small bar magnet in a uniform state of motion along the axis of the solenoid. There is no force on it until the state of motion changes (accelerates). When that happens there is an opposing force, the same as inertia, acting in the opposite direction to oppose the change in this condition. What happens is an electromagnetic force appears and it will appear as an "impulse". You could visualize this phenomenon in three dimensions in a space spanned and filled by a stationary state of moving particles acting under the principle of least action. Accelerating a particle will cause the appearance of a "matter wave" originating in the particle to oppose the acceleration. This will be equivalent to its inertia.
The particles are fermions and the rest of our "space" is a bosonic space filled with entangled waves which have reached a dynamic minimum. The particles and sub-atomic particles represent additional dimensional elements sharing our three dimensional space. "Inside" them are further dimensional spaces spanned by similar fields swapping bosonic for fermionic properties at each turn. They all obey the generalized laws of optics outlined in the previous post and a principle of least action for the "matter waves". The "matter waves" are always there but are only detected when there is acceleration.
This is a "Holographic Universe" since these waves form a holographic whole in which each part reflects what is in the whole and visa versa. As I have said earlier what if we lived in a completely dark Universe with only particles around us. There was a single source of coherent spreading radiation and a photographic plate somewhere with a thick transparent emulsion. A long time exposure would develop into a view of the entire Universe (provided it was stationary) due to reflections and waves reflecting off the "optical mirrors" of the dark particles creating a hologram in the emulsion which are optical standing waves occurring in the space of the emulsion. Matter waves extend through space but they do dynamically interfere with other matter waves unlike the waves of light which pass through each other without effect (this is the difference between bosons and fermions). Optical waves lead to interference fringes while matter waves lead to "mutual minimization" and "damping down" of acceleration in the intervening space.
Cheers
As sources of "matter" seen from a distance these must look like antinodes. As "sources" the sum of the fourier components in free space sum to a "dynamic minimum" through least action... but sum to particles with 'edges" and "solidity" where we identify the matter, bright matter solitons. These "particle surfaces" are actually light cone walls caused by relativistic effects I have explained previously. If a single particle is accelerated relative to other "inertial" particles an EM wave appears which opposes the change in the state of motion being an unbalanced condition very similar to Lenz's Law of Electromagnetism. The action is as if the "force" was coming from the "background" of our Universe and the most distant parts but is only seen during phases of relative non-inertial acceleration.
As a simple example consider an infinitely long hollow solenoid containing a small bar magnet in a uniform state of motion along the axis of the solenoid. There is no force on it until the state of motion changes (accelerates). When that happens there is an opposing force, the same as inertia, acting in the opposite direction to oppose the change in this condition. What happens is an electromagnetic force appears and it will appear as an "impulse". You could visualize this phenomenon in three dimensions in a space spanned and filled by a stationary state of moving particles acting under the principle of least action. Accelerating a particle will cause the appearance of a "matter wave" originating in the particle to oppose the acceleration. This will be equivalent to its inertia.
The particles are fermions and the rest of our "space" is a bosonic space filled with entangled waves which have reached a dynamic minimum. The particles and sub-atomic particles represent additional dimensional elements sharing our three dimensional space. "Inside" them are further dimensional spaces spanned by similar fields swapping bosonic for fermionic properties at each turn. They all obey the generalized laws of optics outlined in the previous post and a principle of least action for the "matter waves". The "matter waves" are always there but are only detected when there is acceleration.
This is a "Holographic Universe" since these waves form a holographic whole in which each part reflects what is in the whole and visa versa. As I have said earlier what if we lived in a completely dark Universe with only particles around us. There was a single source of coherent spreading radiation and a photographic plate somewhere with a thick transparent emulsion. A long time exposure would develop into a view of the entire Universe (provided it was stationary) due to reflections and waves reflecting off the "optical mirrors" of the dark particles creating a hologram in the emulsion which are optical standing waves occurring in the space of the emulsion. Matter waves extend through space but they do dynamically interfere with other matter waves unlike the waves of light which pass through each other without effect (this is the difference between bosons and fermions). Optical waves lead to interference fringes while matter waves lead to "mutual minimization" and "damping down" of acceleration in the intervening space.
Cheers
QUOTE
Are you saying matter waves are really solid objects that penetrate other matter? The amplitude of the matter waves dropps off so rapidly that they appear to have edges and to and definite boundaries. They dont extend into infinity.
Look up Neutron bombs.
Hello all
This is a question that relates to my idea a few posts back. Has anyone run across an experiment involving slits or edge diffraction and magnetic fields around the slit/edge? I have been searching but no luck so far.
The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process.
Thanks

This is a question that relates to my idea a few posts back. Has anyone run across an experiment involving slits or edge diffraction and magnetic fields around the slit/edge? I have been searching but no luck so far.
The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process.
Thanks
Hi Montec,
Light changes direction/diffracts when travelling thru the atomic structure of a lens
due to electric field interactions. Does that aswer your question?
Light changes direction/diffracts when travelling thru the atomic structure of a lens
due to electric field interactions. Does that aswer your question?
Since light is an oscillation, it is not affected by travelling through static electric or magnetic fields in a linear medium such as a vacuum. In nonlinear media such as some crystals, however, interactions can occur between light and static electric and magnetic fields - these interactions include the Faraday effect and the Kerr effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process.
Light changes direction/diffracts when travelling thru the atomic structure of a lens
due to electric field interactions. Does that aswer your question?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process. |
Light changes direction/diffracts when travelling thru the atomic structure of a lens
due to electric field interactions. Does that aswer your question?
Since light is an oscillation, it is not affected by travelling through static electric or magnetic fields in a linear medium such as a vacuum. In nonlinear media such as some crystals, however, interactions can occur between light and static electric and magnetic fields - these interactions include the Faraday effect and the Kerr effect.
QUOTE
As a photon is absorbed by an atom, it excites an electron, elevating it to a higher energy level. If the energy is great enough, so that the electron jumps to a high enough energy level, it may escape the positive pull of the nucleus and be liberated from the atom in a process called photoionisation. Conversely, an electron that descends to a lower energy level in an atom emits a photon of light equal to the energy difference. Since the energy levels of electrons in atoms are discrete, each element emits and absorbs its own characteristic frequencies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation
Regards,
LL
Hello LL
I was looking for an experiment with a setup something like this :

Faraday effect
Just replace the transparent dielectric with knife-edge,single slit,double slit, etc.
On a side note the explanations for the Faraday effect are quite interesting.

I was looking for an experiment with a setup something like this :

Faraday effect
Just replace the transparent dielectric with knife-edge,single slit,double slit, etc.
On a side note the explanations for the Faraday effect are quite interesting.
Hi all,
GE, you stated that you didn't want to be "coerced" into an "Aether" conversation, and then in you next post, do just that. I'm confused; no wait that's C2. Any way, by your own definition, calling it "This is a "Holographic Universe" since these waves form a holographic whole in which each part reflects what is in the whole and visa versa. " You're filling space with a medium? hmmm...
Now, if you are saying that this is not the same as a medium, or aether, then you are saying what I just said, to which you responded, that I was talking about an "aether".
C2, I think maybe I misunderstood you this whole time. I thought we were trying to look for the HOW and WHY of Young's DSE. You apparently wanted us to outdo them? Re-invent the wheel, so to speak? (half-humor there)
Honestly C2, do you think there is value in continuing the talk in just the terms of diffraction? My opinion has NOT changed one bit. I said "openly", in the very beginning, that we will not "improve" on the Fresnel model. The only "problem" is that the Fresnel model can't give us any answers in the realm of atomic spectra. This is EXACTLY the same as if you were asking us to NOT go beyond the Balmer model, that so simply, and adequately explained the Hydrogen atom. The only "problem" is, it doesn't explain ANY of the other elements. Is that a "problem"? YES, in terms of going further, it is. Can we find a more simple explanation? Not really. Bohr "one-stepped" him, with deriving the "Rydberg constant", and getting a good start on the rest of the elements. But, many others would have to extend his model, before the "final explanation" would be given.
I meant to also say that the original DSE is still included, just that we expand where we had tried to limit the conversation. I would suggest that we could use the terms "SSE-DSE", as we have been, and just add an "M" on the end, to represent the "Modern" addition to the experiment. "DSEM" would mean any result that one might have reason to believe was caused by using a laser, especially the exclusively DSEM version of "1-at-a-time" concept, that has been interpreted by QM as being "conscious", and "choosing" it's own path, after reading the experimenters' minds.
C2-
This is very true. His method, combined with Newton's method, is a TOOL. You can't "re-invent" the wrench, after its' been done. No other "tool" exists, as far as I know. This tool is used in defining the atomic spectra, which would ultimately be explained by QM. THIS is their crowning achievement; this is where they claim the "accuracy" that others must match. It is not in any "predictions" made by QM.
How I would LOVE to have been present, the day that Neils Bohr went to observe the demonstration of the first laser. His smug face, barely concealing his strict, "predictive" opinion: THIS DEVICE WILL NOT WORK, PHOTONS DO NOT INTERACT with each other. QM predicted NO laser. He "tactfully withdrew" from the demonstration, when the beam of light coherently formed.
I wonder then, why some of you are seeming so opposed to my tool. I can assure of one thing: in the DSE, the wavelength of "white light" was NOT measured. There is no frequency or wavelength associated with this concept. What WAS measured, by the "toolmaker", was COLOR. From the prism, the spectrum was mathematically broken down, and accurate estimations for wavelength were produced. My tool matches the spectrum in the same way. These two tools go together like the ratchet and the socket. Nothing else like it. By taking "oscillation" in "space", where an expanded "point", or area, goes from one distinct position to another. Like the phases of the moon, in between Full, and New; position One, and position Two, separated by discreet increments of superposition. Having the constant "speed" of light as a natural consequence. This is like going from Young, to Einstein, and skipping Maxwell and Bohr. Does my tool explain everything? Hell no, but it does explain the constant of c , and the rotational, or vortex symmetry of the inverse relationship of frequency and wavelength. I don't know how to respond to people who think that this is not important.
Back to the task at hand. Montec has a question, that I think I have a paper on. "I'll be back..."
regards,
T.Roc
GE, you stated that you didn't want to be "coerced" into an "Aether" conversation, and then in you next post, do just that. I'm confused; no wait that's C2. Any way, by your own definition, calling it "This is a "Holographic Universe" since these waves form a holographic whole in which each part reflects what is in the whole and visa versa. " You're filling space with a medium? hmmm...
Now, if you are saying that this is not the same as a medium, or aether, then you are saying what I just said, to which you responded, that I was talking about an "aether".
C2, I think maybe I misunderstood you this whole time. I thought we were trying to look for the HOW and WHY of Young's DSE. You apparently wanted us to outdo them? Re-invent the wheel, so to speak? (half-humor there)
Honestly C2, do you think there is value in continuing the talk in just the terms of diffraction? My opinion has NOT changed one bit. I said "openly", in the very beginning, that we will not "improve" on the Fresnel model. The only "problem" is that the Fresnel model can't give us any answers in the realm of atomic spectra. This is EXACTLY the same as if you were asking us to NOT go beyond the Balmer model, that so simply, and adequately explained the Hydrogen atom. The only "problem" is, it doesn't explain ANY of the other elements. Is that a "problem"? YES, in terms of going further, it is. Can we find a more simple explanation? Not really. Bohr "one-stepped" him, with deriving the "Rydberg constant", and getting a good start on the rest of the elements. But, many others would have to extend his model, before the "final explanation" would be given.
I meant to also say that the original DSE is still included, just that we expand where we had tried to limit the conversation. I would suggest that we could use the terms "SSE-DSE", as we have been, and just add an "M" on the end, to represent the "Modern" addition to the experiment. "DSEM" would mean any result that one might have reason to believe was caused by using a laser, especially the exclusively DSEM version of "1-at-a-time" concept, that has been interpreted by QM as being "conscious", and "choosing" it's own path, after reading the experimenters' minds.
C2-
QUOTE
IMHO, once you can use the DSE to measure the wavelength of light you have a tool that can be used to gain a greater insight into the nature of light itself.. until then I don't think you have anything useful.
This is very true. His method, combined with Newton's method, is a TOOL. You can't "re-invent" the wrench, after its' been done. No other "tool" exists, as far as I know. This tool is used in defining the atomic spectra, which would ultimately be explained by QM. THIS is their crowning achievement; this is where they claim the "accuracy" that others must match. It is not in any "predictions" made by QM.
How I would LOVE to have been present, the day that Neils Bohr went to observe the demonstration of the first laser. His smug face, barely concealing his strict, "predictive" opinion: THIS DEVICE WILL NOT WORK, PHOTONS DO NOT INTERACT with each other. QM predicted NO laser. He "tactfully withdrew" from the demonstration, when the beam of light coherently formed.
I wonder then, why some of you are seeming so opposed to my tool. I can assure of one thing: in the DSE, the wavelength of "white light" was NOT measured. There is no frequency or wavelength associated with this concept. What WAS measured, by the "toolmaker", was COLOR. From the prism, the spectrum was mathematically broken down, and accurate estimations for wavelength were produced. My tool matches the spectrum in the same way. These two tools go together like the ratchet and the socket. Nothing else like it. By taking "oscillation" in "space", where an expanded "point", or area, goes from one distinct position to another. Like the phases of the moon, in between Full, and New; position One, and position Two, separated by discreet increments of superposition. Having the constant "speed" of light as a natural consequence. This is like going from Young, to Einstein, and skipping Maxwell and Bohr. Does my tool explain everything? Hell no, but it does explain the constant of c , and the rotational, or vortex symmetry of the inverse relationship of frequency and wavelength. I don't know how to respond to people who think that this is not important.
Back to the task at hand. Montec has a question, that I think I have a paper on. "I'll be back..."
regards,
T.Roc
Hi Montec,
I thought at first, you were "questioning", but, after reading your second post, I'm not so sure you were not just "nudging"?
I was looking for an experiment with a setup something like this :
Faraday effect
Just replace the transparent dielectric with knife-edge,single slit,double slit, etc.
Can you give more detail to what you are asking/saying?
regards,
T.Roc
I thought at first, you were "questioning", but, after reading your second post, I'm not so sure you were not just "nudging"?
QUOTE
This is a question that relates to my idea a few posts back. Has anyone run across an experiment involving slits or edge diffraction and magnetic fields around the slit/edge? I have been searching but no luck so far.
The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process.
The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| This is a question that relates to my idea a few posts back. Has anyone run across an experiment involving slits or edge diffraction and magnetic fields around the slit/edge? I have been searching but no luck so far. The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process. |
I was looking for an experiment with a setup something like this :
Faraday effect
Just replace the transparent dielectric with knife-edge,single slit,double slit, etc.
Can you give more detail to what you are asking/saying?
regards,
T.Roc
Hi TRoc and All,
TRoc, just what constitutes a "medium", IYO. Give me an all encompassing
description. This question is "baited".
LL
QUOTE
These are familiar in "wave" terms, but we know that there is no "medium" that is undulating, and transferring/transmitting the energy.
This is consistent with Special Relativity. The EM waves self propagate, due to the electric and magnetic properties of free space. No Aether, as in a medium, but this does not mean we can not (or do not) have "wavelets" present, to perform the duty of conservation of energy. This is consistent with the Black Body Curve of the Cosmic Microwave Background. If we were to say that these wavelets (CMB) were the medium, we would go right back to the problem of what medium do they travel in? Keeping EM propagation the way it is, without the need for a medium, yet allowing waves to do what they do, which is to interact according to a basic set of rules of Resonance, and we have full agreement with our "measured" body of data.
This is consistent with Special Relativity. The EM waves self propagate, due to the electric and magnetic properties of free space. No Aether, as in a medium, but this does not mean we can not (or do not) have "wavelets" present, to perform the duty of conservation of energy. This is consistent with the Black Body Curve of the Cosmic Microwave Background. If we were to say that these wavelets (CMB) were the medium, we would go right back to the problem of what medium do they travel in? Keeping EM propagation the way it is, without the need for a medium, yet allowing waves to do what they do, which is to interact according to a basic set of rules of Resonance, and we have full agreement with our "measured" body of data.
TRoc, just what constitutes a "medium", IYO. Give me an all encompassing
description. This question is "baited".
LL
Montec,
The reason I though "a nudge" was possible, was that, seemingly, you've answered your own question. Perhaps not, though. ??
The diagram you posted

already has the B field considered. "B is the magnetic flux density in the direction of propagation (in teslas) "
Also include in there is "the Verdet constant for the material. This empirical proportionality constant (in units of radians per tesla per metre) varies with wavelength and temperature and is tabulated for various materials. "
Along with this statement
Jumping over to circular birefringence, we get "Birefringence, or double refraction, is the decomposition of a ray of light into two rays (the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray) when it passes through certain types of material, such as calcite crystals, depending on the polarization of the light. "
Certainly, our 2 "knife edges" result in double refraction.
We did talk about the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray before, but drew some objections.
Jumping over to circular birefringence, we get "Birefringence, or double refraction, is the decomposition of a ray of light into two rays (the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray) when it passes through certain types of material, such as calcite crystals, depending on the polarization of the light. "
Certainly, our 2 "knife edges" result in double refraction.
We did talk about the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray before, but drew some objections.
"Birefringence can also arise in magnetic, not dielectric, materials, but substantial variations in magnetic permeability of materials are rare at optical frequencies."
"Applying a magnetic field can cause a material to be circularly birefringent, with different indices of refraction for oppositely-handed circular polarizations (see Faraday effect). "
"It also plays important role in second harmonic generation and many other nonlinear processes."
Are you looking for an experiment?
The Zeeman effect?
The Effect of Magnetisation on the Nature of Light Emitted by a Substance
P. Zeeman
Nature, vol. 55
11 February 1897, pg. 347
http://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/webdocs/Chem-H...man-effect.html
regards,
T.Roc
The reason I though "a nudge" was possible, was that, seemingly, you've answered your own question. Perhaps not, though. ??
The diagram you posted

already has the B field considered. "B is the magnetic flux density in the direction of propagation (in teslas) "
Also include in there is "the Verdet constant for the material. This empirical proportionality constant (in units of radians per tesla per metre) varies with wavelength and temperature and is tabulated for various materials. "
Along with this statement
QUOTE
The Faraday effect is a result of ferromagnetic resonance when the permeability of a material is represented by a tensor. This resonance causes waves to be decomposed into two circularly polarized rays which propagate at different speeds, a property known as circular birefringence. The rays can be considered to re-combine upon emergence from the medium, however owing to the difference in propagation speed they do so with a net phase offset, resulting in a rotation of the angle of linear polarization.
Jumping over to circular birefringence, we get "Birefringence, or double refraction, is the decomposition of a ray of light into two rays (the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray) when it passes through certain types of material, such as calcite crystals, depending on the polarization of the light. "
Certainly, our 2 "knife edges" result in double refraction.
We did talk about the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray before, but drew some objections.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The Faraday effect is a result of ferromagnetic resonance when the permeability of a material is represented by a tensor. This resonance causes waves to be decomposed into two circularly polarized rays which propagate at different speeds, a property known as circular birefringence. The rays can be considered to re-combine upon emergence from the medium, however owing to the difference in propagation speed they do so with a net phase offset, resulting in a rotation of the angle of linear polarization. |
Jumping over to circular birefringence, we get "Birefringence, or double refraction, is the decomposition of a ray of light into two rays (the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray) when it passes through certain types of material, such as calcite crystals, depending on the polarization of the light. "
Certainly, our 2 "knife edges" result in double refraction.
We did talk about the ordinary ray and the extraordinary ray before, but drew some objections.
"Birefringence can also arise in magnetic, not dielectric, materials, but substantial variations in magnetic permeability of materials are rare at optical frequencies."
"Applying a magnetic field can cause a material to be circularly birefringent, with different indices of refraction for oppositely-handed circular polarizations (see Faraday effect). "
"It also plays important role in second harmonic generation and many other nonlinear processes."
Are you looking for an experiment?
The Zeeman effect?
The Effect of Magnetisation on the Nature of Light Emitted by a Substance
P. Zeeman
Nature, vol. 55
11 February 1897, pg. 347
http://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/webdocs/Chem-H...man-effect.html
regards,
T.Roc
Hello TRoc, et al.
What I am looking for is an experiment that replaces the "material" (pink cylinder) with a double (or single) slit diffraction grate. Then see what happens to the diffraction pattern when the magnetic field is varied.
If there is an effect (I would expect one) then the surface electrons, either bound or free, play a part in the diffraction mechanism. If not then I will proceed to take a different path to understand the mechanism behind the diffraction process.
I am at a fork in the decision tree if you know what I mean.

What I am looking for is an experiment that replaces the "material" (pink cylinder) with a double (or single) slit diffraction grate. Then see what happens to the diffraction pattern when the magnetic field is varied.
If there is an effect (I would expect one) then the surface electrons, either bound or free, play a part in the diffraction mechanism. If not then I will proceed to take a different path to understand the mechanism behind the diffraction process.
I am at a fork in the decision tree if you know what I mean.
Hi all,
LL-
I'm not trying to alter the standard definition. What I said was partially just a reflection on the historical "build-up" of models based on "wave" phenomena.
Frequency and wavelength obviously come from this history. Because water was a typical "medium", Science looked for this same feature, when the wave properties of electro-magnetism were discovered. No such luck, according to the MME.
I've seen that you agree with the "self-propagation" of the EM wave. This model means that we don't need a medium.
When I mention the background waves, I am talking about the cosmic background radiation. These are very real.
When I mention resonance (in the context of this "medium"), I'm talking about interactions with this background. I definitely am NOT saying that a "photon" needs this background to propagate.
This background is "ever changing". This gets us by Einstein's (& GE) very "tight" idea, that we can't have a "preferred frame of reference". Ironically (for me), this is called an "Acoustic Metric". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_metric
I'm not trying to alter the standard definition. What I said was partially just a reflection on the historical "build-up" of models based on "wave" phenomena.
Frequency and wavelength obviously come from this history. Because water was a typical "medium", Science looked for this same feature, when the wave properties of electro-magnetism were discovered. No such luck, according to the MME.
I've seen that you agree with the "self-propagation" of the EM wave. This model means that we don't need a medium.
When I mention the background waves, I am talking about the cosmic background radiation. These are very real.
When I mention resonance (in the context of this "medium"), I'm talking about interactions with this background. I definitely am NOT saying that a "photon" needs this background to propagate.
This background is "ever changing". This gets us by Einstein's (& GE) very "tight" idea, that we can't have a "preferred frame of reference". Ironically (for me), this is called an "Acoustic Metric". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_metric
Unlike some other metrics, acoustic metrics can seem to show some very nonlinear behavior: where special relativity's Minkowski metric is fixed and unchanging, and general relativity's metric is more flexible (Wheeler: "spacetime tells matter how to move, matter tells spacetime how to bend"), acoustic metrics take this a stage further: in the most familiar example of an acoustic metric, the behavior of sound in air, the motion of a sound wavefront through a region moves air, creating local variations and offsets in the average speed of air molecules along the signal path, which in turn modifies the local speed of sound at different points along that path. The passage of a signal through an acoustic metric itself modifies the metric and the notional speeds at which signals are transmitted.
My resonant chord model allows the "soliton-like" wave to propagate without spreading, as Schrodinger's wave equation does. This is a self-interaction, conserves energy, and does get around many conceptual problems of the current way of thinking. Historically, the path taken has been linear; I believe that we need to go to the non-linear approach.
ciao,
T.Roc
LL-
QUOTE
TRoc, just what constitutes a "medium", IYO. Give me an all encompassing description. This question is "baited".
I'm not trying to alter the standard definition. What I said was partially just a reflection on the historical "build-up" of models based on "wave" phenomena.
Frequency and wavelength obviously come from this history. Because water was a typical "medium", Science looked for this same feature, when the wave properties of electro-magnetism were discovered. No such luck, according to the MME.
I've seen that you agree with the "self-propagation" of the EM wave. This model means that we don't need a medium.
When I mention the background waves, I am talking about the cosmic background radiation. These are very real.
When I mention resonance (in the context of this "medium"), I'm talking about interactions with this background. I definitely am NOT saying that a "photon" needs this background to propagate.
This background is "ever changing". This gets us by Einstein's (& GE) very "tight" idea, that we can't have a "preferred frame of reference". Ironically (for me), this is called an "Acoustic Metric". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_metric
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| TRoc, just what constitutes a "medium", IYO. Give me an all encompassing description. This question is "baited". |
I'm not trying to alter the standard definition. What I said was partially just a reflection on the historical "build-up" of models based on "wave" phenomena.
Frequency and wavelength obviously come from this history. Because water was a typical "medium", Science looked for this same feature, when the wave properties of electro-magnetism were discovered. No such luck, according to the MME.
I've seen that you agree with the "self-propagation" of the EM wave. This model means that we don't need a medium.
When I mention the background waves, I am talking about the cosmic background radiation. These are very real.
When I mention resonance (in the context of this "medium"), I'm talking about interactions with this background. I definitely am NOT saying that a "photon" needs this background to propagate.
This background is "ever changing". This gets us by Einstein's (& GE) very "tight" idea, that we can't have a "preferred frame of reference". Ironically (for me), this is called an "Acoustic Metric". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_metric
Unlike some other metrics, acoustic metrics can seem to show some very nonlinear behavior: where special relativity's Minkowski metric is fixed and unchanging, and general relativity's metric is more flexible (Wheeler: "spacetime tells matter how to move, matter tells spacetime how to bend"), acoustic metrics take this a stage further: in the most familiar example of an acoustic metric, the behavior of sound in air, the motion of a sound wavefront through a region moves air, creating local variations and offsets in the average speed of air molecules along the signal path, which in turn modifies the local speed of sound at different points along that path. The passage of a signal through an acoustic metric itself modifies the metric and the notional speeds at which signals are transmitted.
My resonant chord model allows the "soliton-like" wave to propagate without spreading, as Schrodinger's wave equation does. This is a self-interaction, conserves energy, and does get around many conceptual problems of the current way of thinking. Historically, the path taken has been linear; I believe that we need to go to the non-linear approach.
ciao,
T.Roc
Hi Montec et al,
QUOTE (Montec+)
This is a question that relates to my idea a few posts back. Has anyone run across an experiment involving slits or edge diffraction and magnetic fields around the slit/edge? I have been searching but no luck so far.
The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process.
The reason I ask is because a null result would imply that the electrons whether bound or free play no part in the diffraction process.
Yes there is an experiment where a "magnetic field" affects the fringes in the DSE., It is the Aharonov-Bohm Effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharonov-Bohm_effect
Only the field in the ideal experiment is passed through the 'superconducting bar or through a superconducting ring" which define the slits and it is done in such a way to exclude any possibility of electric or magnetic fields from the actual slits themselves. What is found is very strange. The interference fringes are shifted either side according to the magnetic field "inside" a superconducting strut". This indicates that the shift is not due to electric and magnetic fields but due to the vector and scalar potentials appearing "globally".... a different thing altogether... something we cannot detect as such with our instruments and was not thought to be "real" until the experiment was done with a great deal of accuracy. Naturally it was predicted in advance. It showed a global "defect" acting non-locally in a local electron double slit interference experiment.
here is an example of the "Optical" Aharonov-Bohm Effect ...
Polarized excitons in nanorings and the optical Aharonov-Bohm effect Once again it is not related to electric or magnetic fields and it produces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharonov-Bohm_effect
Only the field in the ideal experiment is passed through the 'superconducting bar or through a superconducting ring" which define the slits and it is done in such a way to exclude any possibility of electric or magnetic fields from the actual slits themselves. What is found is very strange. The interference fringes are shifted either side according to the magnetic field "inside" a superconducting strut". This indicates that the shift is not due to electric and magnetic fields but due to the vector and scalar potentials appearing "globally".... a different thing altogether... something we cannot detect as such with our instruments and was not thought to be "real" until the experiment was done with a great deal of accuracy. Naturally it was predicted in advance. It showed a global "defect" acting non-locally in a local electron double slit interference experiment.
here is an example of the "Optical" Aharonov-Bohm Effect ...
Polarized excitons in nanorings and the optical Aharonov-Bohm effect Once again it is not related to electric or magnetic fields and it produces
QUOTE (Abstract+)
Polarized excitons in nanorings and the optical Aharonov-Bohm effect
The quantum nature of matter lies in the wave function phases that accumulate while particles move along their trajectories. A prominent example is the Aharonov-Bohm phase, which has been studied in connection with the conductance of nanostructures. However, optical response in solids is determined by neutral excitations, for which no sensitivity to magnetic flux would be expected. We propose a mechanism for the topological phase of a neutral particle, a polarized exciton confined to a semiconductor quantum ring. We predict that this magnetic-field induced phase may strongly affect excitons in a system with cylindrical symmetry, resulting in switching between ‘‘bright’’ exciton ground states and novel ‘‘dark’’ states with nearly infinite lifetimes. Since excitons determine the optical response of semiconductors, the predicted phase can be used to tailor photon emission from quantum nanostructures.
The quantum nature of matter lies in the wave function phases that accumulate while particles move along their trajectories. A prominent example is the Aharonov-Bohm phase, which has been studied in connection with the conductance of nanostructures. However, optical response in solids is determined by neutral excitations, for which no sensitivity to magnetic flux would be expected. We propose a mechanism for the topological phase of a neutral particle, a polarized exciton confined to a semiconductor quantum ring. We predict that this magnetic-field induced phase may strongly affect excitons in a system with cylindrical symmetry, resulting in switching between ‘‘bright’’ exciton ground states and novel ‘‘dark’’ states with nearly infinite lifetimes. Since excitons determine the optical response of semiconductors, the predicted phase can be used to tailor photon emission from quantum nanostructures.
A very interesting phenomenon and if this result is correct then it is uncertain how this affects the standard AB Effect if it is "magnetic" as stated. As far as I know the electric and magnetic fields in slits still has no effects, this neutral phenomenon attracts a kind of Berry Phase. IMHO I thnk it is related to "topological charge" or in this case "circulation"
Cheers
Cheers
Montec,
Just one more point of clarification:
do you want the magnetic field to be "localized" at the slits specifically?
Or, the path length (in between),
or, even the screen?
ciao,
T.Roc
Just one more point of clarification:
do you want the magnetic field to be "localized" at the slits specifically?
Or, the path length (in between),
or, even the screen?
ciao,
T.Roc
Looking at the specifications for the Teachspin DSE ( http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...fications.shtml ) I see they quote:-
All Slit Widths: 0.09 nm
Double Slit Separations: 0.35, 0.40, 0.45 nm
Either they have updated the page or I've only just looked at this with the right glasses on. I have emailed them for the correct spec.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Edit .. Teachspin have responded .(efficient!) . unfortunately nobody there able to give the correct information until next week.
All Slit Widths: 0.09 nm
Double Slit Separations: 0.35, 0.40, 0.45 nm
Either they have updated the page or I've only just looked at this with the right glasses on. I have emailed them for the correct spec.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Edit .. Teachspin have responded .(efficient!) . unfortunately nobody there able to give the correct information until next week.
Confused2!
Ask them for data of their experiments for when they made the thickness of the slit thicker.
What happened?
jal
Ask them for data of their experiments for when they made the thickness of the slit thicker.
What happened?
jal
Hello TRoc, GE, et al.
TRoc
Just at the slits. Need to keep the number of unknowns to a minimum.
GE
Interesting information on the Aharonov-Bohm Effect. This effect seams to involve particles and/or quasi particles (holes) in resonance situations. I will need to ponder this subject some more before I can make any concrete inferences.

TRoc
Just at the slits. Need to keep the number of unknowns to a minimum.
GE
Interesting information on the Aharonov-Bohm Effect. This effect seams to involve particles and/or quasi particles (holes) in resonance situations. I will need to ponder this subject some more before I can make any concrete inferences.
Hello GE, et al.
There seams to be a link/correlation between the Aharonov-Bohm effect and both the Faraday effect and Voigt effect. Both the Voigt and Faraday effects involve setting up a matrix of electron spin orientations in matter. These magnetic moments/dipoles affect the separate phase components of the polarized light. The Aharonov-Bohm effect appears to be the reverse of this effect. ie the magnetic field affecting the electron verses the electron effecting the magnetic field.

There seams to be a link/correlation between the Aharonov-Bohm effect and both the Faraday effect and Voigt effect. Both the Voigt and Faraday effects involve setting up a matrix of electron spin orientations in matter. These magnetic moments/dipoles affect the separate phase components of the polarized light. The Aharonov-Bohm effect appears to be the reverse of this effect. ie the magnetic field affecting the electron verses the electron effecting the magnetic field.
Hi Montec,
Not an experiment just some additional info:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod3.html
LL
Not an experiment just some additional info:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod3.html
LL
QUOTE (jal+)
Ask them for data of their experiments for when they made the thickness of the slit thicker.
If they could just tell us how many paths make two we'd be a lot further forward
.
Best wishes,
C2.
If they could just tell us how many paths make two we'd be a lot further forward
Best wishes,
C2.
Hi Montec, Laserlight, TRoc, Confused2 et al,
I will try and give a laypersons idea of the Aharanov-Bohm Experiment (AB). It is easy enough to describe but it is more difficult to explain. There are three versions of the experiment ... The Aharanov-Bohm, Aharanov-Anandan, Aharanov-Cashir Effects. And there is also the "Optical" AB which is another version altogether. This seems to be a universal effect due to matter waves and even de Broglie waves in light as previously discussed. It seems linked with Spun Light, Berry (Geometric) Phase and the Instantons discussed in reference to Singular Optics and the works of Dr. Taco Visser previously.
In the stock standard AB it is electron diffraction through double slits just like in Youngs DSE diffraction. The only difference is between the two slits is placed an "infinite" solenoid in which the external magnetic field is zero (totally shielded out). One way to do this is to encase the solenoid inside a superconductor in which quantum theory says that the magnetic field of the solenoid is unable to escape. As you change the DC potential in the solenoid the interference fringes change and shift. According to Classical EM Theory there is "nothing" between the slits (the fields are only inside the solenoid). Restating this... in the slits themselves.. no electric or magnetic fields exist - you can be assured of that. The solenoid field cannot be detected using any known instrument between the slits, yet the fringes can be shifted and moved repeating endlessly as they rotate through 2Π radians by changing the current through the solenoid. One obvious way to do this (artificially) is to change the refractive index in one of the slits differentially. This seems to be what is happening in a vacuum when we reflect on Dr. Taco Visser's recent papers.
A definitive experiment was made recently using a superconducting loop by Akira Tonomura in which the fringes inside the loop shifted relative to the fringes outside the loop. The loop was superconducting so that "quantumwise" no fields were able to exist on the outside.
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/global/fellow_tonomura.cfm

... Click to enlarge...
This is not the actual experiment that he did but this is a reference to his experiment...
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/global/abe.cfm
Where we see this illustration showing the fringes...

Notice the shift... If you has a control knob you could wind the fringes back and forth with endless repetition... dotted lines in the STEM Photo indicate where the fringes are inside the loop and outside the loop. Akira Tonomura rightly won a number of prestigious awards for this effort since it clinched this result without any nay saying after decades of speculation.
The fringes as in the DSE are described in this interesting paper...
The Aharanov Bohm Effect: Still a thought provoking Experiment MD Semon and JR Taylor
In which this image indicates the relationship to the DSE.

Read the annotation please... click to enlarge...
Classically this should not happen... there is no field in the slits. The answer seems to arise from the Electromagnetic Vector or Scalar Potential which pervades space globally.
Of course prior to recent experiments this was "black art" and covered with "quantum effects" etc. Clearly this can be accounted for by having these instantons and classically replacing these "vortex fields" with optical "black holes" as it were. Remember we need to think of this phenomenon in three dimensions not just in the two dimensions of the classical DSE. I hope this helps and I hope this places it into context. Comments welcome...
Cheers
I will try and give a laypersons idea of the Aharanov-Bohm Experiment (AB). It is easy enough to describe but it is more difficult to explain. There are three versions of the experiment ... The Aharanov-Bohm, Aharanov-Anandan, Aharanov-Cashir Effects. And there is also the "Optical" AB which is another version altogether. This seems to be a universal effect due to matter waves and even de Broglie waves in light as previously discussed. It seems linked with Spun Light, Berry (Geometric) Phase and the Instantons discussed in reference to Singular Optics and the works of Dr. Taco Visser previously.
In the stock standard AB it is electron diffraction through double slits just like in Youngs DSE diffraction. The only difference is between the two slits is placed an "infinite" solenoid in which the external magnetic field is zero (totally shielded out). One way to do this is to encase the solenoid inside a superconductor in which quantum theory says that the magnetic field of the solenoid is unable to escape. As you change the DC potential in the solenoid the interference fringes change and shift. According to Classical EM Theory there is "nothing" between the slits (the fields are only inside the solenoid). Restating this... in the slits themselves.. no electric or magnetic fields exist - you can be assured of that. The solenoid field cannot be detected using any known instrument between the slits, yet the fringes can be shifted and moved repeating endlessly as they rotate through 2Π radians by changing the current through the solenoid. One obvious way to do this (artificially) is to change the refractive index in one of the slits differentially. This seems to be what is happening in a vacuum when we reflect on Dr. Taco Visser's recent papers.
A definitive experiment was made recently using a superconducting loop by Akira Tonomura in which the fringes inside the loop shifted relative to the fringes outside the loop. The loop was superconducting so that "quantumwise" no fields were able to exist on the outside.
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/global/fellow_tonomura.cfm

... Click to enlarge...
This is not the actual experiment that he did but this is a reference to his experiment...
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/global/abe.cfm
Where we see this illustration showing the fringes...

Notice the shift... If you has a control knob you could wind the fringes back and forth with endless repetition... dotted lines in the STEM Photo indicate where the fringes are inside the loop and outside the loop. Akira Tonomura rightly won a number of prestigious awards for this effort since it clinched this result without any nay saying after decades of speculation.
The fringes as in the DSE are described in this interesting paper...
The Aharanov Bohm Effect: Still a thought provoking Experiment MD Semon and JR Taylor
In which this image indicates the relationship to the DSE.

Read the annotation please... click to enlarge...
Classically this should not happen... there is no field in the slits. The answer seems to arise from the Electromagnetic Vector or Scalar Potential which pervades space globally.
Of course prior to recent experiments this was "black art" and covered with "quantum effects" etc. Clearly this can be accounted for by having these instantons and classically replacing these "vortex fields" with optical "black holes" as it were. Remember we need to think of this phenomenon in three dimensions not just in the two dimensions of the classical DSE. I hope this helps and I hope this places it into context. Comments welcome...
Cheers
Hi GE,
Do you know if they reversed the polarity of the applied DC current in the
"shielded" solenoid to compare the effect? Apparently, something is changing
since there is an obvious change in the direction or phase relationship of the
electrons leaving the slit "sources". Current flowing thru a superconductor
implies that there is a voltage gradient across the shielded conductor, which is
what allows internal currents to flow. So, there should be a voltage gradient or
capacitance "induced" between the superconductor and the immediate "space" that
surrounds it.
Current or magnetic flux passing thru a material should align (polarize) the dipoles
of the atoms in the material in the direction of current flow or internal field polarity, which changes its capacitance and the dielectric constant relative to that of
the "space" to which it is "coupled". If you change the relative capacitance
between two points then an electron "passing by" should be "affected", IMO.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...s/magpr.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../elefie.html#c3
Do you know if they reversed the polarity of the applied DC current in the
"shielded" solenoid to compare the effect? Apparently, something is changing
since there is an obvious change in the direction or phase relationship of the
electrons leaving the slit "sources". Current flowing thru a superconductor
implies that there is a voltage gradient across the shielded conductor, which is
what allows internal currents to flow. So, there should be a voltage gradient or
capacitance "induced" between the superconductor and the immediate "space" that
surrounds it.
Current or magnetic flux passing thru a material should align (polarize) the dipoles
of the atoms in the material in the direction of current flow or internal field polarity, which changes its capacitance and the dielectric constant relative to that of
the "space" to which it is "coupled". If you change the relative capacitance
between two points then an electron "passing by" should be "affected", IMO.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...s/magpr.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../elefie.html#c3
Classically this should not happen... there is no field in the slits. The answer seems to arise from the Electromagnetic Vector or Scalar Potential which pervades space globally.
Can you elaborate on this mechanism. Perhaps my "explanation" stated above
has some bearing on this phenomenon.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
The only difference is between the two slits is placed an "infinite" solenoid in which the external magnetic field is zero (totally shielded out). One way to do this is to encase the solenoid inside a superconductor in which quantum theory says that the magnetic field of the solenoid is unable to escape. As you change the DC potential in the solenoid the interference fringes change and shift. According to Classical EM Theory there is "nothing" between the slits (the fields are only inside the solenoid). Restating this... in the slits themselves.. no electric or magnetic fields exist - you can be assured of that. The solenoid field cannot be detected using any known instrument between the slits, yet the fringes can be shifted and moved repeating endlessly as they rotate through 2Π radians by changing the current through the solenoid.
Do you know if they reversed the polarity of the applied DC current in the
"shielded" solenoid to compare the effect? Apparently, something is changing
since there is an obvious change in the direction or phase relationship of the
electrons leaving the slit "sources". Current flowing thru a superconductor
implies that there is a voltage gradient across the shielded conductor, which is
what allows internal currents to flow. So, there should be a voltage gradient or
capacitance "induced" between the superconductor and the immediate "space" that
surrounds it.
Current or magnetic flux passing thru a material should align (polarize) the dipoles
of the atoms in the material in the direction of current flow or internal field polarity, which changes its capacitance and the dielectric constant relative to that of
the "space" to which it is "coupled". If you change the relative capacitance
between two points then an electron "passing by" should be "affected", IMO.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...s/magpr.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../elefie.html#c3
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The only difference is between the two slits is placed an "infinite" solenoid in which the external magnetic field is zero (totally shielded out). One way to do this is to encase the solenoid inside a superconductor in which quantum theory says that the magnetic field of the solenoid is unable to escape. As you change the DC potential in the solenoid the interference fringes change and shift. According to Classical EM Theory there is "nothing" between the slits (the fields are only inside the solenoid). Restating this... in the slits themselves.. no electric or magnetic fields exist - you can be assured of that. The solenoid field cannot be detected using any known instrument between the slits, yet the fringes can be shifted and moved repeating endlessly as they rotate through 2Π radians by changing the current through the solenoid. |
Do you know if they reversed the polarity of the applied DC current in the
"shielded" solenoid to compare the effect? Apparently, something is changing
since there is an obvious change in the direction or phase relationship of the
electrons leaving the slit "sources". Current flowing thru a superconductor
implies that there is a voltage gradient across the shielded conductor, which is
what allows internal currents to flow. So, there should be a voltage gradient or
capacitance "induced" between the superconductor and the immediate "space" that
surrounds it.
Current or magnetic flux passing thru a material should align (polarize) the dipoles
of the atoms in the material in the direction of current flow or internal field polarity, which changes its capacitance and the dielectric constant relative to that of
the "space" to which it is "coupled". If you change the relative capacitance
between two points then an electron "passing by" should be "affected", IMO.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...s/magpr.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../elefie.html#c3
Classically this should not happen... there is no field in the slits. The answer seems to arise from the Electromagnetic Vector or Scalar Potential which pervades space globally.
Can you elaborate on this mechanism. Perhaps my "explanation" stated above
has some bearing on this phenomenon.
Regards,
LL
Hi all,
Montec, I think you'll have to "read between the lines" to try to understand the affects your looking for. This is similar to trying to find the DSE done "in vacuum": it's not out there under the "historical" version, because the effects are too small to observe without a little help. By the time you get the "help" that you need, the experiment no longer resembles the DSE.
Here is a strange Chinese (Taiwan) paper, talking about "Prototype Hybrid Symmetry Undulator Magnet in SRRC" (Synchrotron Radiation Research Center). A bit from the Abstract:
"A prototype Halbach hybrid magnet structure undulator with period of 10 cm was
used to achieve a high magnetic field. A nearly sinusoidal magnetic field strength of
0.964 Tesla at 24 mm gap was achieved.
..
The real field profile was measured to find the magnetic field behavior
and the photon energy spectrum characteristics. In addition, field distributions
obtained from the field measurement and simulation were used to calculate the photon spectrum characteristic."
http://psroc.phys.ntu.edu.tw/cjp/download.php?d=1&pid=441
I am not familiar with "spectrum shimming", unless this is a "translation issue", and is know to us by something else. Anybody??
I think that we will have to go back to things like vortex dynamics, spin-spin coupling, and even the surface dynamics, that LL wanted to look at further. You'll notice the disclaimer on the Faraday effect, saying that the levels near visible light are very hard to measure. We have similar resources in Lande'G moment, spin waves, the Shubnikov-de Haas Effect, the Hanle Effect, even laser ablation and filamentation have good data built up.
The geometry and size of the slit would seem to have more control over the affect, than the particular atomic make-up of the slit-wall. Treating the slit as a "quantum bit", we can see similar effects from ~wavelength to sub-wavelength sizes. Looking at the world of "quantum dots", there is much to glean.
regards,
T.Roc
Montec, I think you'll have to "read between the lines" to try to understand the affects your looking for. This is similar to trying to find the DSE done "in vacuum": it's not out there under the "historical" version, because the effects are too small to observe without a little help. By the time you get the "help" that you need, the experiment no longer resembles the DSE.
Here is a strange Chinese (Taiwan) paper, talking about "Prototype Hybrid Symmetry Undulator Magnet in SRRC" (Synchrotron Radiation Research Center). A bit from the Abstract:
"A prototype Halbach hybrid magnet structure undulator with period of 10 cm was
used to achieve a high magnetic field. A nearly sinusoidal magnetic field strength of
0.964 Tesla at 24 mm gap was achieved.
..
The real field profile was measured to find the magnetic field behavior
and the photon energy spectrum characteristics. In addition, field distributions
obtained from the field measurement and simulation were used to calculate the photon spectrum characteristic."
http://psroc.phys.ntu.edu.tw/cjp/download.php?d=1&pid=441
I am not familiar with "spectrum shimming", unless this is a "translation issue", and is know to us by something else. Anybody??
I think that we will have to go back to things like vortex dynamics, spin-spin coupling, and even the surface dynamics, that LL wanted to look at further. You'll notice the disclaimer on the Faraday effect, saying that the levels near visible light are very hard to measure. We have similar resources in Lande'G moment, spin waves, the Shubnikov-de Haas Effect, the Hanle Effect, even laser ablation and filamentation have good data built up.
The geometry and size of the slit would seem to have more control over the affect, than the particular atomic make-up of the slit-wall. Treating the slit as a "quantum bit", we can see similar effects from ~wavelength to sub-wavelength sizes. Looking at the world of "quantum dots", there is much to glean.
regards,
T.Roc
Many years ago Michelson and Morley wanted to compare the speed of light along two separate paths. The most accurate way to compare two paths was (and probably still is) by using interference to compare the two paths.
This rather makes me wonder whether the interference effect is crucial to the Aharanov-Bohm effect or whether it is (again) a very accurate way to compare two paths. The careful observer of path length interferometry (if such existed) would notice that the paths are as much divided before the slits as after.
There was some mention in one of the papers referenced by Good Elf that the 'double slit' interference slides 'within' the single slit envelope .. naturally a phase change between slits would not affect the single slit envelope but would (of course) affect the relative phase at which the combined paths meet at the detector .. hence the 'double slit' effect would move within the single slit effect.
Both Good Elf and myself have made many references to 'seeking all paths' as a quantum effect which cannot be predicted classically. Could the Aharanov-Bohm effect simply be a side effect of this 'seeking all paths'? The interference effect being irrelevant except, as has already been suggested, once the nature of the DSE is understood it becomes a tool that can be used to analyze other effects.
Just a thought, could be wrong of course.
Best wishes,
-C2.
This rather makes me wonder whether the interference effect is crucial to the Aharanov-Bohm effect or whether it is (again) a very accurate way to compare two paths. The careful observer of path length interferometry (if such existed) would notice that the paths are as much divided before the slits as after.
There was some mention in one of the papers referenced by Good Elf that the 'double slit' interference slides 'within' the single slit envelope .. naturally a phase change between slits would not affect the single slit envelope but would (of course) affect the relative phase at which the combined paths meet at the detector .. hence the 'double slit' effect would move within the single slit effect.
Both Good Elf and myself have made many references to 'seeking all paths' as a quantum effect which cannot be predicted classically. Could the Aharanov-Bohm effect simply be a side effect of this 'seeking all paths'? The interference effect being irrelevant except, as has already been suggested, once the nature of the DSE is understood it becomes a tool that can be used to analyze other effects.
Just a thought, could be wrong of course.
Best wishes,
-C2.
Hello all
I came across this gem while searching for diffraction from triangular holes. http://www.union.edu/PUBLIC/PHYDEPT/jonesc...ific_photos.htm
Have a look see.

I came across this gem while searching for diffraction from triangular holes. http://www.union.edu/PUBLIC/PHYDEPT/jonesc...ific_photos.htm
Have a look see.
Hi Confused2, Montec, TRoc, Laserlight et al,
QUOTE (Confused2+)
Both Good Elf and myself have made many references to 'seeking all paths' as a quantum effect which cannot be predicted classically. Could the Aharanov-Bohm effect simply be a side effect of this 'seeking all paths'?
It seems clear to me that "seeking all paths" means in the form of waves since it makes no sense that particles could "seek all paths". Waves spread and naturally "seek all those paths" but when the superposition of the states collapses when the photon is scattered or absorbed then it behaves like a particle and it behaves in a localized fashion. This is why I do not "like" the particle interpretation inside our "space". I think that it is an unnecessary conclusion to say that waves and photon particles "travel" between sources and sinks at all. Whatever "photon particles" do they probably do not actually travel between points in that sense. The same goes for wave behavior for the DSE. Asking the question "which slit the photon or particle passed through?" does not work logically since unless you force this to happen (force the "wave" to pass through a single hole or slit), what we are referring to are waves and only waves and they pass through both slits.
I have been very impressed by the possibility of changing the vacuum dielectric even if it is only a relative change. It has many very interesting consequences to experiment. Since the refractive index can be conceived as the ratio of the speed of light in a "medium" to the speed of light in a vacuum it gives rise to "optical solitons" where empty space can trap photons and other stuff due to total internal refraction and reflection within a dimensionally confined bubble space. Thus this velocity change between various places in our space leads to a "connection to other spaces" as I have been saying. Something that is not immediately measurable. If "light" can't enter certain regions of space it may mean that our dimensional space is defined by these null energy barriers or "light cone walls" where energy can't actually pass except during a quantum leap. Parallel transport of a 'vector" around such a closed path may lead to a Berry Phase and those interesting stationary states we refer to as quantum states separated by 2π.
I have been very impressed by the possibility of changing the vacuum dielectric even if it is only a relative change. It has many very interesting consequences to experiment. Since the refractive index can be conceived as the ratio of the speed of light in a "medium" to the speed of light in a vacuum it gives rise to "optical solitons" where empty space can trap photons and other stuff due to total internal refraction and reflection within a dimensionally confined bubble space. Thus this velocity change between various places in our space leads to a "connection to other spaces" as I have been saying. Something that is not immediately measurable. If "light" can't enter certain regions of space it may mean that our dimensional space is defined by these null energy barriers or "light cone walls" where energy can't actually pass except during a quantum leap. Parallel transport of a 'vector" around such a closed path may lead to a Berry Phase and those interesting stationary states we refer to as quantum states separated by 2π.
QUOTE (Wikipedia: Instanton+)
An instanton or pseudoparticle is a notion appearing in theoretical and mathematical physics. It is a classical solution to equations of motion with a finite, non-zero action, either in quantum mechanics or in quantum field theory. More precisely, it is a solution to the equations of motion of the classical field theory on a Euclidean spacetime. In such a theory, solutions to the equations of motion may be thought of as critical points of the action. The critical points of the action may be local maxima of the action, local minima, or saddle points. Instantons are important in quantum field theory because (a) they appear in the path integral as the leading quantum corrections to the classical behavior of a system, and (
they can be used to study the tunneling behavior in various systems such as a Yang-Mills theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instantons
Cheers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instantons
Cheers
Hi all,
GE has pointed out a few of what I think are very important items. Montec is thinking about the magnetic portions, that can uncouple. This also ties into the Polaritons (the plasmons that LL want to look at). Sorry C2, but I say, let's give it a go, and dump out the QM goodies. I don't necessarily like the way QM is "patched together", but there is a lot of good Scientific data to play with here.
Tying it all together will take some time, but patience has been displayed by everyone here.
First, a "primer", so that we know the terminology in some of these papers. Even then, we will find that often, the same phenomenon gets a different name, because it it looked at in a slightly different way, by the many different specialty branches that have developed over the last 50 years, or so.
There's nothing like a Thesis, to get "the whole story" (probably more than needed!, large file).
Polaritonics: An Intermediate Regime Between Electronics and Photonics
David W. Ward
Jan. 18, 2005
submitted to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dept. of Chemistry
(partial) Abstract
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/27873/1/60804556.pdf
Also, before we get to far, I'd like to point out what appears to be some connections, among a few very different phenomena.
You all know that I am fond of the spiral, in different forms, including the Parker wave, the helice, and in general, the vortex.
GE has linked the "Falaco" (sorry Brazilians) soliton, to an extra-dimensional parameter. Pool-side Physics is right up there as my favorite! That is where I saw my first "inverse refraction rainbow" in "nature".
THE FALACO SOLITON
Cosmic Strings in a Swimming Pool
http://www22.pair.com/csdc/pdf/falaco97.pdf
Be sure to look at the photo on the last page.
Now, I'm going to jump over to Black holes. Think about the "basics" here: 2 vortices, coupling, and a good "birds eye view" of a Parker spiral being formed.

Two black holes near each another. This is a still image from an animation

This second still from the animation shows the black holes much closer together.
movielink: http://www.aip.org/mgr/png/images/bhmergermovie.mpg
and last, the magnetic spin waves. First, from PhysOrg: http://www.physorg.com/news76259883.html
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/27873/1/60804556.pdf
Also, before we get to far, I'd like to point out what appears to be some connections, among a few very different phenomena.
You all know that I am fond of the spiral, in different forms, including the Parker wave, the helice, and in general, the vortex.
GE has linked the "Falaco" (sorry Brazilians) soliton, to an extra-dimensional parameter. Pool-side Physics is right up there as my favorite! That is where I saw my first "inverse refraction rainbow" in "nature".
THE FALACO SOLITON
Cosmic Strings in a Swimming Pool
http://www22.pair.com/csdc/pdf/falaco97.pdf
Be sure to look at the photo on the last page.
Now, I'm going to jump over to Black holes. Think about the "basics" here: 2 vortices, coupling, and a good "birds eye view" of a Parker spiral being formed.

Two black holes near each another. This is a still image from an animation

This second still from the animation shows the black holes much closer together.
movielink: http://www.aip.org/mgr/png/images/bhmergermovie.mpg
and last, the magnetic spin waves. First, from PhysOrg: http://www.physorg.com/news76259883.html
Groups of nanoscale magnetic oscillators are known to synchronize their individual 10-nanowatt signals to achieve a signal strength equal to the square of the number of devices. .. —the oscillators accomplish this feat by communicating by means of “spin waves,” their magnetic emissions caused by oscillating patterns in the spin of electrons.
..
The NIST oscillators—nanoscale electrical contacts applied to sandwiches of two magnetic films separated by a non-magnetic layer of copper..
Sort of a "magnetic double-slit sandwich", eh?
)
This is exactly the same result from "cutting" the Falaco Soliton apart. (less dimensions)
This is also remarkably (inverse) similar to the Alfven waves traveling in the Solar plasma. The magnetic fields get twisted, and separate; then after passing the Earth and cooling down, reconnect and discharge energy into the Earth's atmosphere. From Parker spiral of the Sun, to the vortex of the Earth's magnetic field.
and from http://www.physorg.com/news83937945.html

Figure 1: Dynamical reversal of the vortex core: The upper section shows the "magnetic needles" of the vortex core, pointing down on the left and up on the right. The lower section shows these two magnetization directions of the vortex core in two images, taken with a magnetic scanning X-ray microscope at the Advanced Light Source in Berkeley, Calif. In the center is the bipolar magnetic field pulse (250 MHz, 1.5 milli-Tesla at the peak) which causes the vortex core to reverse. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research in Stuttgart

Figure 2: Micromagnetic simulation of the reversal of the vortex core with a short magnetic pulse. (a) Initial status: vortex core points downwards; (b ) additional upwards magnetization becomes visible; (c ) a double peak forms: a vortex-antivortex pair; (d) final status: after the original vortex has been eliminated by the antivortex, a vortex core pointing upwards remains. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research
GE has pointed out a few of what I think are very important items. Montec is thinking about the magnetic portions, that can uncouple. This also ties into the Polaritons (the plasmons that LL want to look at). Sorry C2, but I say, let's give it a go, and dump out the QM goodies. I don't necessarily like the way QM is "patched together", but there is a lot of good Scientific data to play with here.
Tying it all together will take some time, but patience has been displayed by everyone here.
First, a "primer", so that we know the terminology in some of these papers. Even then, we will find that often, the same phenomenon gets a different name, because it it looked at in a slightly different way, by the many different specialty branches that have developed over the last 50 years, or so.
There's nothing like a Thesis, to get "the whole story" (probably more than needed!, large file).
Polaritonics: An Intermediate Regime Between Electronics and Photonics
David W. Ward
Jan. 18, 2005
submitted to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dept. of Chemistry
(partial) Abstract
QUOTE
This thesis contains the foundational work behind the field of polaritonics. Corresponding to a frequency range from roughly 100 gigahertz up to 10 terahertz, polaritonics bridges the gap between electronics and photonics. In this regime, signals are carried by an admixture of electromagnetic and lattice vibrational waves known as phonon-polaritons, rather than currents or photons.
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/27873/1/60804556.pdf
Also, before we get to far, I'd like to point out what appears to be some connections, among a few very different phenomena.
You all know that I am fond of the spiral, in different forms, including the Parker wave, the helice, and in general, the vortex.
GE has linked the "Falaco" (sorry Brazilians) soliton, to an extra-dimensional parameter. Pool-side Physics is right up there as my favorite! That is where I saw my first "inverse refraction rainbow" in "nature".
THE FALACO SOLITON
Cosmic Strings in a Swimming Pool
http://www22.pair.com/csdc/pdf/falaco97.pdf
Be sure to look at the photo on the last page.
Now, I'm going to jump over to Black holes. Think about the "basics" here: 2 vortices, coupling, and a good "birds eye view" of a Parker spiral being formed.

Two black holes near each another. This is a still image from an animation

This second still from the animation shows the black holes much closer together.
movielink: http://www.aip.org/mgr/png/images/bhmergermovie.mpg
and last, the magnetic spin waves. First, from PhysOrg: http://www.physorg.com/news76259883.html
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| This thesis contains the foundational work behind the field of polaritonics. Corresponding to a frequency range from roughly 100 gigahertz up to 10 terahertz, polaritonics bridges the gap between electronics and photonics. In this regime, signals are carried by an admixture of electromagnetic and lattice vibrational waves known as phonon-polaritons, rather than currents or photons. |
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/27873/1/60804556.pdf
Also, before we get to far, I'd like to point out what appears to be some connections, among a few very different phenomena.
You all know that I am fond of the spiral, in different forms, including the Parker wave, the helice, and in general, the vortex.
GE has linked the "Falaco" (sorry Brazilians) soliton, to an extra-dimensional parameter. Pool-side Physics is right up there as my favorite! That is where I saw my first "inverse refraction rainbow" in "nature".
THE FALACO SOLITON
Cosmic Strings in a Swimming Pool
http://www22.pair.com/csdc/pdf/falaco97.pdf
Be sure to look at the photo on the last page.
Now, I'm going to jump over to Black holes. Think about the "basics" here: 2 vortices, coupling, and a good "birds eye view" of a Parker spiral being formed.

Two black holes near each another. This is a still image from an animation

This second still from the animation shows the black holes much closer together.
movielink: http://www.aip.org/mgr/png/images/bhmergermovie.mpg
and last, the magnetic spin waves. First, from PhysOrg: http://www.physorg.com/news76259883.html
Groups of nanoscale magnetic oscillators are known to synchronize their individual 10-nanowatt signals to achieve a signal strength equal to the square of the number of devices. .. —the oscillators accomplish this feat by communicating by means of “spin waves,” their magnetic emissions caused by oscillating patterns in the spin of electrons.
..
The NIST oscillators—nanoscale electrical contacts applied to sandwiches of two magnetic films separated by a non-magnetic layer of copper..
Sort of a "magnetic double-slit sandwich", eh?
QUOTE
The NIST team previously reported “locking” the signals of two oscillators but were not sure why this occurred. They suspected spin waves, which propagate through solid magnetic materials, or magnetic fields, which propagate through air or a vacuum. So they did an experiment by making two oscillators on the same slab of magnetic multilayer, locking their signals, and then cutting a gap in the solid material between the two devices. The locking stopped. .. Each oscillator shifts the frequency of its own spin waves to match that of the incoming wave; this “frequency pulling” gets stronger as the frequencies get closer together, until they lock. Each oscillator also adjusts the peaks and troughs of its wave pattern to the incoming wave, until the two sets of waves synchronize.
(emphasis added This is exactly the same result from "cutting" the Falaco Soliton apart. (less dimensions)
This is also remarkably (inverse) similar to the Alfven waves traveling in the Solar plasma. The magnetic fields get twisted, and separate; then after passing the Earth and cooling down, reconnect and discharge energy into the Earth's atmosphere. From Parker spiral of the Sun, to the vortex of the Earth's magnetic field.
and from http://www.physorg.com/news83937945.html

Figure 1: Dynamical reversal of the vortex core: The upper section shows the "magnetic needles" of the vortex core, pointing down on the left and up on the right. The lower section shows these two magnetization directions of the vortex core in two images, taken with a magnetic scanning X-ray microscope at the Advanced Light Source in Berkeley, Calif. In the center is the bipolar magnetic field pulse (250 MHz, 1.5 milli-Tesla at the peak) which causes the vortex core to reverse. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research in Stuttgart

Figure 2: Micromagnetic simulation of the reversal of the vortex core with a short magnetic pulse. (a) Initial status: vortex core points downwards; (b ) additional upwards magnetization becomes visible; (c ) a double peak forms: a vortex-antivortex pair; (d) final status: after the original vortex has been eliminated by the antivortex, a vortex core pointing upwards remains. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The NIST team previously reported “locking” the signals of two oscillators but were not sure why this occurred. They suspected spin waves, which propagate through solid magnetic materials, or magnetic fields, which propagate through air or a vacuum. So they did an experiment by making two oscillators on the same slab of magnetic multilayer, locking their signals, and then cutting a gap in the solid material between the two devices. The locking stopped. .. Each oscillator shifts the frequency of its own spin waves to match that of the incoming wave; this “frequency pulling” gets stronger as the frequencies get closer together, until they lock. Each oscillator also adjusts the peaks and troughs of its wave pattern to the incoming wave, until the two sets of waves synchronize. |
(emphasis added
)
This is exactly the same result from "cutting" the Falaco Soliton apart. (less dimensions)
This is also remarkably (inverse) similar to the Alfven waves traveling in the Solar plasma. The magnetic fields get twisted, and separate; then after passing the Earth and cooling down, reconnect and discharge energy into the Earth's atmosphere. From Parker spiral of the Sun, to the vortex of the Earth's magnetic field.
and from http://www.physorg.com/news83937945.html

Figure 1: Dynamical reversal of the vortex core: The upper section shows the "magnetic needles" of the vortex core, pointing down on the left and up on the right. The lower section shows these two magnetization directions of the vortex core in two images, taken with a magnetic scanning X-ray microscope at the Advanced Light Source in Berkeley, Calif. In the center is the bipolar magnetic field pulse (250 MHz, 1.5 milli-Tesla at the peak) which causes the vortex core to reverse. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research in Stuttgart

Figure 2: Micromagnetic simulation of the reversal of the vortex core with a short magnetic pulse. (a) Initial status: vortex core points downwards; (b ) additional upwards magnetization becomes visible; (c ) a double peak forms: a vortex-antivortex pair; (d) final status: after the original vortex has been eliminated by the antivortex, a vortex core pointing upwards remains. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research
A magnetic pulse (see fig. 1) is used to build a magnetic field at right angles to the vortex, so that the whole structure is stimulated to execute a collective spin movement. As micromagnetic simulations show (fig. 2), this creates an opposite magnetisation at the edge of the original vortex, whereby virtually no energy is used. The result is a vortex-antivortex pair. The antivortex cancels out the original vortex which leaves just one vortex with reverse polarisation.
..
The directions of the small nanoscopic magnetic needles define a digital bit that is extremely stable in the face of frequently unavoidable external factors such as heat or interference from magnetic fields.
This is exactly the same result from "cutting" the Falaco Soliton apart. (less dimensions)
This is also remarkably (inverse) similar to the Alfven waves traveling in the Solar plasma. The magnetic fields get twisted, and separate; then after passing the Earth and cooling down, reconnect and discharge energy into the Earth's atmosphere. From Parker spiral of the Sun, to the vortex of the Earth's magnetic field.
and from http://www.physorg.com/news83937945.html

Figure 1: Dynamical reversal of the vortex core: The upper section shows the "magnetic needles" of the vortex core, pointing down on the left and up on the right. The lower section shows these two magnetization directions of the vortex core in two images, taken with a magnetic scanning X-ray microscope at the Advanced Light Source in Berkeley, Calif. In the center is the bipolar magnetic field pulse (250 MHz, 1.5 milli-Tesla at the peak) which causes the vortex core to reverse. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research in Stuttgart

Figure 2: Micromagnetic simulation of the reversal of the vortex core with a short magnetic pulse. (a) Initial status: vortex core points downwards; (b ) additional upwards magnetization becomes visible; (c ) a double peak forms: a vortex-antivortex pair; (d) final status: after the original vortex has been eliminated by the antivortex, a vortex core pointing upwards remains. Credit: Max Planck Institute of Metals Research
A magnetic pulse (see fig. 1) is used to build a magnetic field at right angles to the vortex, so that the whole structure is stimulated to execute a collective spin movement. As micromagnetic simulations show (fig. 2), this creates an opposite magnetisation at the edge of the original vortex, whereby virtually no energy is used. The result is a vortex-antivortex pair. The antivortex cancels out the original vortex which leaves just one vortex with reverse polarisation.
..
The directions of the small nanoscopic magnetic needles define a digital bit that is extremely stable in the face of frequently unavoidable external factors such as heat or interference from magnetic fields.
(emphasis added)
From Synchrotron X-Ray PEEM study of vortex dynamics in ferromagnetic nanodots http://www.msd.anl.gov/highlights/docs/gus...m_highlight.pdf
From Digital spiral imaging
http://www.opticsexpress.org/DirectPDFAcce...FTOKEN=82019546
From Digital spiral imaging
http://www.opticsexpress.org/DirectPDFAcce...FTOKEN=82019546
Abstract: A major application of optics is imaging all types of structural,
physical, chemical and biological features of matter. Techniques based
on most known properties of light have been developed over the years to
remotely acquire information about such features. They include the spin
angular momentum, encoded in the polarization, but not yet the orbital
angular momentum encoded in its spiral spectrum. Here we put forward
the potential of such spiral spectra. In particular, we use several canonical
examples to show how the orbital angular momentum spectra of a light
beam can be used to image a variety of intrinsic and extrinsic properties
encoded, e.g., in phase and amplitude gradients, dislocations or delays.
© 2005 Optical Society of America
Maybe this paper is more relevant now, than 100 pages ago.
Quantized Rotation of Atoms From Photons with Orbital Angular Momentum
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0607/0607171.pdf
Maybe this paper is more relevant now, than 100 pages ago.
Quantized Rotation of Atoms From Photons with Orbital Angular Momentum
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0607/0607171.pdf
We demonstrate the coherent transfer of the orbital angular momentum of a photon to an atom in quantized units of ~, using a 2-photon stimulated Raman process with Laguerre-Gaussian beams to generate an atomic vortex state in a Bose-Einstein condensate of sodium atoms. We show that the process is coherent by creating superpositions of different vortex states, where the relative phase
between the states is determined by the relative phases of the optical fields. Furthermore, we create vortices of charge 2 by transferring to each atom the orbital angular momentum of two photons.
regards,
T.Roc
From Synchrotron X-Ray PEEM study of vortex dynamics in ferromagnetic nanodots http://www.msd.anl.gov/highlights/docs/gus...m_highlight.pdf
QUOTE
The magnetization distribution in small ferromagnetic particles (dots) depends on their size and shape.
..
Calculations of the eigenfrequencies of quantized spin excitations in small magnetic elements are complicated due to their non-ellipsoidal shape and non-uniform ground state.
..
The vortex core positions oscillate on a 10-ns timescale in a self-induced magnetostatic potential well after the in-plane magnetic field is turned off. The measured frequencies as a function of the aspect ratio (thickness/radius) of the dots are in agreement with theoretical calculations for the same geometry. The observed vortex core position oscillations are interpreted as the translational mode of the vortex motion around the equilibrium position induced by a gyroforce and a dynamic magnetostatic restoring force. The non-zero gyrovector, an intrinsic property of the vortex arising from non-zero topological charges of the vortex core, is principally important for the vortex dynamics description.
..
Calculations of the eigenfrequencies of quantized spin excitations in small magnetic elements are complicated due to their non-ellipsoidal shape and non-uniform ground state.
..
The vortex core positions oscillate on a 10-ns timescale in a self-induced magnetostatic potential well after the in-plane magnetic field is turned off. The measured frequencies as a function of the aspect ratio (thickness/radius) of the dots are in agreement with theoretical calculations for the same geometry. The observed vortex core position oscillations are interpreted as the translational mode of the vortex motion around the equilibrium position induced by a gyroforce and a dynamic magnetostatic restoring force. The non-zero gyrovector, an intrinsic property of the vortex arising from non-zero topological charges of the vortex core, is principally important for the vortex dynamics description.
From Digital spiral imaging
http://www.opticsexpress.org/DirectPDFAcce...FTOKEN=82019546
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The magnetization distribution in small ferromagnetic particles (dots) depends on their size and shape. .. Calculations of the eigenfrequencies of quantized spin excitations in small magnetic elements are complicated due to their non-ellipsoidal shape and non-uniform ground state. .. The vortex core positions oscillate on a 10-ns timescale in a self-induced magnetostatic potential well after the in-plane magnetic field is turned off. The measured frequencies as a function of the aspect ratio (thickness/radius) of the dots are in agreement with theoretical calculations for the same geometry. The observed vortex core position oscillations are interpreted as the translational mode of the vortex motion around the equilibrium position induced by a gyroforce and a dynamic magnetostatic restoring force. The non-zero gyrovector, an intrinsic property of the vortex arising from non-zero topological charges of the vortex core, is principally important for the vortex dynamics description. |
From Digital spiral imaging
http://www.opticsexpress.org/DirectPDFAcce...FTOKEN=82019546
Abstract: A major application of optics is imaging all types of structural,
physical, chemical and biological features of matter. Techniques based
on most known properties of light have been developed over the years to
remotely acquire information about such features. They include the spin
angular momentum, encoded in the polarization, but not yet the orbital
angular momentum encoded in its spiral spectrum. Here we put forward
the potential of such spiral spectra. In particular, we use several canonical
examples to show how the orbital angular momentum spectra of a light
beam can be used to image a variety of intrinsic and extrinsic properties
encoded, e.g., in phase and amplitude gradients, dislocations or delays.
© 2005 Optical Society of America
QUOTE
Traced back to the fundamental properties of light, the known techniques rely on a particular use of the energy, the energy spectra and the energy density of light signals, their longitudinal and transverse linear momenta, their temporal and spatial coherence, and their angular momentum associated to the polarization of the electromagnetic fields.
However, the angular momentum can contain not only a spin contribution associated to the polarization, but also an orbital contribution associated to the spatial profile of the light beam amplitude and phase-front [1, 2].
..
Nevertheless, while the spin angular momentum is a workhorse in imaging across the electromagnetic spectrum, the orbital angular momentum spectrum has not yet been added to the toolkit. Our aim in this paper is to illustrate the potential of the spiral spectra of light beams for remotely image suitable features of matter.
The concept we put forward comprises illuminating the target with a light beam with a convenient spatial shape, expanding the reflected or transmitted signal into the spiral eigenstates of orbital angular momentum, and acquiring information of the target by analyzing the corresponding spiral spectrum [18]. The shape of the spiral spectrum, its bandwidth, or the weights of prescribed eigenstates carry the sought after information. A principal difference between the spin angular momentum and the orbital angular momentum is that the former forms two dimensional light states (e.g., vertical o horizontal polarization) while the latter encodes information in infinite-dimensional states, hence providing multi-dimensional acquisition alphabets. Also, while the spin angular momentum manifests itself in the vectorial nature of the light fields and is thus particularly sensitive to material anisotropies, the orbital angular momentum can be
associated to the topological properties of the light wavefront and hence is specially sensitive to phase gradients and discontinuities.
However, the angular momentum can contain not only a spin contribution associated to the polarization, but also an orbital contribution associated to the spatial profile of the light beam amplitude and phase-front [1, 2].
..
Nevertheless, while the spin angular momentum is a workhorse in imaging across the electromagnetic spectrum, the orbital angular momentum spectrum has not yet been added to the toolkit. Our aim in this paper is to illustrate the potential of the spiral spectra of light beams for remotely image suitable features of matter.
The concept we put forward comprises illuminating the target with a light beam with a convenient spatial shape, expanding the reflected or transmitted signal into the spiral eigenstates of orbital angular momentum, and acquiring information of the target by analyzing the corresponding spiral spectrum [18]. The shape of the spiral spectrum, its bandwidth, or the weights of prescribed eigenstates carry the sought after information. A principal difference between the spin angular momentum and the orbital angular momentum is that the former forms two dimensional light states (e.g., vertical o horizontal polarization) while the latter encodes information in infinite-dimensional states, hence providing multi-dimensional acquisition alphabets. Also, while the spin angular momentum manifests itself in the vectorial nature of the light fields and is thus particularly sensitive to material anisotropies, the orbital angular momentum can be
associated to the topological properties of the light wavefront and hence is specially sensitive to phase gradients and discontinuities.
Maybe this paper is more relevant now, than 100 pages ago.
Quantized Rotation of Atoms From Photons with Orbital Angular Momentum
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0607/0607171.pdf
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Traced back to the fundamental properties of light, the known techniques rely on a particular use of the energy, the energy spectra and the energy density of light signals, their longitudinal and transverse linear momenta, their temporal and spatial coherence, and their angular momentum associated to the polarization of the electromagnetic fields. However, the angular momentum can contain not only a spin contribution associated to the polarization, but also an orbital contribution associated to the spatial profile of the light beam amplitude and phase-front [1, 2]. .. Nevertheless, while the spin angular momentum is a workhorse in imaging across the electromagnetic spectrum, the orbital angular momentum spectrum has not yet been added to the toolkit. Our aim in this paper is to illustrate the potential of the spiral spectra of light beams for remotely image suitable features of matter. The concept we put forward comprises illuminating the target with a light beam with a convenient spatial shape, expanding the reflected or transmitted signal into the spiral eigenstates of orbital angular momentum, and acquiring information of the target by analyzing the corresponding spiral spectrum [18]. The shape of the spiral spectrum, its bandwidth, or the weights of prescribed eigenstates carry the sought after information. A principal difference between the spin angular momentum and the orbital angular momentum is that the former forms two dimensional light states (e.g., vertical o horizontal polarization) while the latter encodes information in infinite-dimensional states, hence providing multi-dimensional acquisition alphabets. Also, while the spin angular momentum manifests itself in the vectorial nature of the light fields and is thus particularly sensitive to material anisotropies, the orbital angular momentum can be associated to the topological properties of the light wavefront and hence is specially sensitive to phase gradients and discontinuities. |
Maybe this paper is more relevant now, than 100 pages ago.
Quantized Rotation of Atoms From Photons with Orbital Angular Momentum
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0607/0607171.pdf
We demonstrate the coherent transfer of the orbital angular momentum of a photon to an atom in quantized units of ~, using a 2-photon stimulated Raman process with Laguerre-Gaussian beams to generate an atomic vortex state in a Bose-Einstein condensate of sodium atoms. We show that the process is coherent by creating superpositions of different vortex states, where the relative phase
between the states is determined by the relative phases of the optical fields. Furthermore, we create vortices of charge 2 by transferring to each atom the orbital angular momentum of two photons.
QUOTE
..In both cases, mechanical OAM was likely transferred to the atomic clouds, but not directly observed. (Such an observation would have been difficult, since the atomic clouds were incoherent, thermal samples.) No experiment has demonstrated the quantized transfer of the OAM of a photon to an atom.
..
Here, we report the direct observation of the quantized transfer of well-defined OAM of photons to atoms.
..
Here, we report the direct observation of the quantized transfer of well-defined OAM of photons to atoms.
regards,
T.Roc
Hi Laserlight, Confused2, Montec, TRoc et al,
Firstly... I have not analyzed TRoc's submission and this is not a comment on what he has said there. I do see that physically close identical oscillators can "pull" each other into sync and thus create mutually coherent waves. Also the further the wavelets propagate together the more likely they will ride a common wavefront. And you know my view that the particles may not be a part of the process of "propagation through space". The idea of "spin waves" is closely allied with de Broglie waves of particles like electrons which incorporate half integer spin. Falaco Solitons are a most engaging phenomenon... but remember we are unable to see a connection through "the string" that is joining them in nature (or in pools) unless higher dimensions are proposed. I really do not think the "massive environment" theory can help because there is no matter to be massive. This concept is suggestive that electromagnetism which also is an origin for the strong and weak forces may also be ultimately responsible for mass and gravity as well. The symmetry for electromagnetism is "odd" while gravity is "even". Remember two "odd" things added together can make one "even" thing. Don't worry I will have a read of your post TRoc.
Firstly... I have not analyzed TRoc's submission and this is not a comment on what he has said there. I do see that physically close identical oscillators can "pull" each other into sync and thus create mutually coherent waves. Also the further the wavelets propagate together the more likely they will ride a common wavefront. And you know my view that the particles may not be a part of the process of "propagation through space". The idea of "spin waves" is closely allied with de Broglie waves of particles like electrons which incorporate half integer spin. Falaco Solitons are a most engaging phenomenon... but remember we are unable to see a connection through "the string" that is joining them in nature (or in pools) unless higher dimensions are proposed. I really do not think the "massive environment" theory can help because there is no matter to be massive. This concept is suggestive that electromagnetism which also is an origin for the strong and weak forces may also be ultimately responsible for mass and gravity as well. The symmetry for electromagnetism is "odd" while gravity is "even". Remember two "odd" things added together can make one "even" thing. Don't worry I will have a read of your post TRoc.
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Do you know if they reversed the polarity of the applied DC current in the "shielded" solenoid to compare the effect? Apparently, something is changing since there is an obvious change in the direction or phase relationship of the electrons leaving the slit "sources".
Reversing the DC polarity changes the direction of the shift. Something is definitely changing and it is the result of a topological influence in the space like charge is the topological influence of a photon forced to weave a twisted path inside of a toroidal space.

... click to enlarge...
... from Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?:J.G. Williamson and M.B. van der Mark

... click to enlarge...
... from Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?:J.G. Williamson and M.B. van der Mark
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
Current flowing thru a superconductor implies that there is a voltage gradient across the shielded conductor, which is what allows internal currents to flow. So, there should be a voltage gradient or capacitance "induced" between the superconductor and the immediate "space" that surrounds it.
Not in this case, the superconductor removes the appearance of any electric or magnetic fields outside of the superconducting sheath. Special adaption ensures that to demonstrate the effect, currents are removed from the vicinity of the solenoid. Check out the references above.
QUOTE (Laserlight+)
QUOTE (Good Elf+)
Classically this should not happen... there is no field in the slits. The answer seems to arise from the Electromagnetic Vector or Scalar Potential which pervades space globally.
Can you elaborate on this mechanism. Perhaps my "explanation" stated above has some bearing on this phenomenon.
Your explanation is allowing for somethings that have to be specifically removed to prove that they are not the cause. This is why the effect was in dispute for about 40 years, a foolproof test of this process was not known.
Aharonov-Bohm_Effect with movies
What happens is the "electromagnetic influence" creates a Lorentzian Force (just like gravity) in the absence of all obvious electromagnetic influences being shielded and beyond the influence of the external slit system.. In other words this topologically induced manipulation of quantum interference results in a kind of "pseudo-gravity" produced by pure electromagnetism but not due to charge and not due to direct electromagnetism but due to electromagnetism in a space not accessible to the moving wavelike electrons. This "same" effect also occurs with uncharged particles (Aharonov-Casher Efect), with spin related particles (Aharonov-Anandan Effect) and with (Optical AB Effect) photons as well so it is not directly due to "electric fields and their normal influence". This is the reason why Einstein was right in saying Gravity was a pseudo-force. It would seem this is apparently due to the unmeasurable "global" (non-local) influence of the electromagnetic vector or scalar potential.
Aharonov-Bohm_Effect with movies
What happens is the "electromagnetic influence" creates a Lorentzian Force (just like gravity) in the absence of all obvious electromagnetic influences being shielded and beyond the influence of the external slit system.. In other words this topologically induced manipulation of quantum interference results in a kind of "pseudo-gravity" produced by pure electromagnetism but not due to charge and not due to direct electromagnetism but due to electromagnetism in a space not accessible to the moving wavelike electrons. This "same" effect also occurs with uncharged particles (Aharonov-Casher Efect), with spin related particles (Aharonov-Anandan Effect) and with (Optical AB Effect) photons as well so it is not directly due to "electric fields and their normal influence". This is the reason why Einstein was right in saying Gravity was a pseudo-force. It would seem this is apparently due to the unmeasurable "global" (non-local) influence of the electromagnetic vector or scalar potential.
QUOTE (Kendall Clark's Conclusion+)
The results of all of the previous effects is the somewhat shocking conclusion that in quantum mechanics particles, whether charged or neutral, are influenced by electromagnetic potentials even if the particles are not in a region of the electromagnetic fields. These potentials have definite physical influence on the particles even though they are in a field free region. This directly contradicts classical mechanics because in classical systems the equation of motion does not contain any quantities that could lead to potentials having physical significance, they only act as purely mathematical quantities. In quantum mechanics we use Schrodinger wave equations to describe the motion of particles and this is where the potentials emerge. Although there has been, and most certainly will be in the future, controversy over the exact interpretation of these potentials, I cite for example a paper by Boyer [7] where he attributes the phase shift of the Aharonov-Casher effect to a classical lag. The theoretical and experimental proof of the physical results of these effects cannot be denied and is directly the result of a quantum mechanical system
The Aharonov-Casher and Aharonov-Anandan Effect by Kendall Clark
The Aharonov-Casher and Aharonov-Anandan Effect by Kendall Clark
I would like to add that I partially disagree. While the results are all true it is not the result of "Quantum Mechanics" but of non-local influences seen in many optical situations that we are only starting to come to grips with as a relatively new phenomenon such as entanglement. It may not be classical but it is not something to be in awe or wonder at. Electromagnetics has some "missing bits" that will need to be corrected retrospectively such as those "spin waves". How or why these were missed along the way toward modern science seems quite anomalous. Vortex electromagnetic phenomena are strange and unfamiliar but they are still "a known". The odd part about it is the way that the functions no longer exhibit smooth infinitely differentiable continuity due to this asymmetry. This should not be seen as something strange since this will be the result of certain well defined constants in our Universe chipping in when they are encountered such as the Speed of Light and Planck's Constant resulting in a sudden change in the system's state leading to an apparent "instability" in under determined EM states.
I realize this is going to come as a shock to many but this is a well experimentally researched area with many results "on the table" and only a lot of gobbledygook and "quantum weirdness" as the explanation. I think the "weird" explanations are anomalous and we need to view this stuff with "quantum reality" so we can understand it. All we are seeing is one end of a spectrum of phenomena that are expressions of bright matter solitons forming in the electromagnetic field leading to stationary states. These stationary states are energy and information traps if the process is carried out with the right symmetry, and leads at the other end of this spectrum to the Lorentz-CPT conservation laws where charge and magnetism are not "fundamental" and are expressions of a "dynamic process" involving electromagnetism and topological twists in the internal fields leading to the appearance of "mass".
Comments are welcome and encouraged.
Cheers
I realize this is going to come as a shock to many but this is a well experimentally researched area with many results "on the table" and only a lot of gobbledygook and "quantum weirdness" as the explanation. I think the "weird" explanations are anomalous and we need to view this stuff with "quantum reality" so we can understand it. All we are seeing is one end of a spectrum of phenomena that are expressions of bright matter solitons forming in the electromagnetic field leading to stationary states. These stationary states are energy and information traps if the process is carried out with the right symmetry, and leads at the other end of this spectrum to the Lorentz-CPT conservation laws where charge and magnetism are not "fundamental" and are expressions of a "dynamic process" involving electromagnetism and topological twists in the internal fields leading to the appearance of "mass".
Comments are welcome and encouraged.
Cheers
Hi TRoc et al,
That is a very interesting article on magnetic vortices. They seem incredibly stable, a 1/2 Tesla is quite a strong field. The article on OAM is also very interesting and because OAM is an infinite state variable can convey vast quantities of information. A single photon could potentially carry all the knowledge of our civilization encoded in the OAM.
The two ideas are not specifically linked (at least in my mind) other than the vortex ideas or these spin states are very suggestive of a "black hole" in our understanding. The first seem to be a kind of magnetic soliton and the second is related to twisted light and optical dislocations. Would you like to explain what you think is the issue here. I am all ears.
I would like everyone to recall the geometry of a spinning disk subject to Relativity... (Length contraction/rotation and simultaneous time dilation for the trapped photon)

... Click to enlarge...
This is a geometry defined by a trapped state that is forced to rotate. You can see that for light in such a situation the circumference of the "shell" would depend on the relative refractive index of the structure.
As V -> C the circumference -> 0. This does not mean that R -> 0. What "could" happen in such "underspecified states" is as R -> ∞ the circumference (or the surface area of a circumscribed sphere) can shrink to a very tiny figure along an enclosing light cone boundary. A kind of "bubble space" can exist within or embedded in our normal space. It also has an interesting "dual" when considered from within the reciprocal region. Hope this helps...
Cheers
That is a very interesting article on magnetic vortices. They seem incredibly stable, a 1/2 Tesla is quite a strong field. The article on OAM is also very interesting and because OAM is an infinite state variable can convey vast quantities of information. A single photon could potentially carry all the knowledge of our civilization encoded in the OAM.
The two ideas are not specifically linked (at least in my mind) other than the vortex ideas or these spin states are very suggestive of a "black hole" in our understanding. The first seem to be a kind of magnetic soliton and the second is related to twisted light and optical dislocations. Would you like to explain what you think is the issue here. I am all ears.
I would like everyone to recall the geometry of a spinning disk subject to Relativity... (Length contraction/rotation and simultaneous time dilation for the trapped photon)

... Click to enlarge...
This is a geometry defined by a trapped state that is forced to rotate. You can see that for light in such a situation the circumference of the "shell" would depend on the relative refractive index of the structure.
As V -> C the circumference -> 0. This does not mean that R -> 0. What "could" happen in such "underspecified states" is as R -> ∞ the circumference (or the surface area of a circumscribed sphere) can shrink to a very tiny figure along an enclosing light cone boundary. A kind of "bubble space" can exist within or embedded in our normal space. It also has an interesting "dual" when considered from within the reciprocal region. Hope this helps...
Cheers
QUOTE (Good Elf+Mar 8 2007, 02:44 PM)
Hi TRoc et al,
That is a very interesting article on magnetic vortices. They seem incredibly stable, a 1/2 Tesla is quite a strong field. The article on OAM is also very interesting and because OAM is an infinite state variable can convey vast quantities of information. A single photon could potentially carry all the knowledge of our civilization encoded in the OAM.
The two ideas are not specifically linked (at least in my mind) other than the vortex ideas or these spin states are very suggestive of a "black hole" in our understanding. The first seem to be a kind of magnetic soliton and the second is related to twisted light and optical dislocations. Would you like to explain what you think is the issue here. I am all ears.
I would like everyone to recall the geometry of a spinning disk subject to Relativity... (Length contraction/rotation and simultaneous time dilation for the trapped photon)

... Click to enlarge...
This is a geometry defined by a trapped state that is forced to rotate. You can see that for light in such a situation the circumference of the "shell" would depend on the relative refractive index of the structure.
As V -> C the circumference -> 0. This does not mean that R -> 0. What "could" happen in such "underspecified states" is as R -> ∞ the circumference (or the surface area of a circumscribed sphere) can shrink to a very tiny figure along an enclosing light cone boundary. A kind of "bubble space" can exist within or embedded in our normal space. It also has an interesting "dual" when considered from within the reciprocal region. Hope this helps...
Cheers
I cant belive it.
That is a very interesting article on magnetic vortices. They seem incredibly stable, a 1/2 Tesla is quite a strong field. The article on OAM is also very interesting and because OAM is an infinite state variable can convey vast quantities of information. A single photon could potentially carry all the knowledge of our civilization encoded in the OAM.
The two ideas are not specifically linked (at least in my mind) other than the vortex ideas or these spin states are very suggestive of a "black hole" in our understanding. The first seem to be a kind of magnetic soliton and the second is related to twisted light and optical dislocations. Would you like to explain what you think is the issue here. I am all ears.
I would like everyone to recall the geometry of a spinning disk subject to Relativity... (Length contraction/rotation and simultaneous time dilation for the trapped photon)

... Click to enlarge...
This is a geometry defined by a trapped state that is forced to rotate. You can see that for light in such a situation the circumference of the "shell" would depend on the relative refractive index of the structure.
As V -> C the circumference -> 0. This does not mean that R -> 0. What "could" happen in such "underspecified states" is as R -> ∞ the circumference (or the surface area of a circumscribed sphere) can shrink to a very tiny figure along an enclosing light cone boundary. A kind of "bubble space" can exist within or embedded in our normal space. It also has an interesting "dual" when considered from within the reciprocal region. Hope this helps...
Cheers
I cant belive it.
Hi Neil,
QUOTE (Neil Farbstein+)
I cant believe it.
I would never ask anyone to believe anything "elves" tell them. However you must find out for yourself. Put together the different bits of information... The ability to alter the velocity of light in confined spaces (local refractive index) in a vacuum as indicated by the studies of Dr. Taco Visser and the paper on Relativistic Rotating Disks...
The Curvature of the Relativistic Rotating Disk: Brian Keating
Where you can confirm the equations given.
The amount of elapsed time in circumnavigating a disk is (click to enlarge)...

and and the measured circumference of the disk at radius R is...

as seen in this reference...
Two SR puzzles, paradoxes...? Good Elf
Look at the limiting case for light itself when it is confined. This will lead to geometric phase and non-commutative phenomena in those underspecified regions. The definition of Instantons discussed previously indicates how this may be incorporated in a semi-classical way. Will this structure take on a spherical shape? We have experiments that show the ability to create/generate bright matter solitons and spontaneous matter anti-matter particle creation from photons of high energy. Can photons be trapped in optical vortices by differential refractive indices leading to total internal reflection forcing the photons to undergo a trapped state? I think it is a matter for the experimental record and not a theory. I just put a "couple of bits" together and come up with the "big picture" looking at a number of existing Photonic experiments performed by John Pendry over the last few years and by others and instead of using "glass" or "meta-materials" you can use empty space and these "fields".
The treatment of the rotating disk using Special Relativity is actually a very valid approach and is acknowledged in the literature. Not only that, it is very graphic and "compelling" and in keeping with Einstein. You must add in Geometric Phase to complete the picture. Other concepts which I have used before are also still applicable such as this reference...
The resemblances in mathematical structures between the optical constants of artificial electromagnetic media and some physical phenomena in field theory: Jian Qi Shen
There is no compulsion to "believe" and I only ask that you look to existing experiment for support of these ideas.
Cheers
The Curvature of the Relativistic Rotating Disk: Brian Keating
Where you can confirm the equations given.
The amount of elapsed time in circumnavigating a disk is (click to enlarge)...

and and the measured circumference of the disk at radius R is...

as seen in this reference...
Two SR puzzles, paradoxes...? Good Elf
Look at the limiting case for light itself when it is confined. This will lead to geometric phase and non-commutative phenomena in those underspecified regions. The definition of Instantons discussed previously indicates how this may be incorporated in a semi-classical way. Will this structure take on a spherical shape? We have experiments that show the ability to create/generate bright matter solitons and spontaneous matter anti-matter particle creation from photons of high energy. Can photons be trapped in optical vortices by differential refractive indices leading to total internal reflection forcing the photons to undergo a trapped state? I think it is a matter for the experimental record and not a theory. I just put a "couple of bits" together and come up with the "big picture" looking at a number of existing Photonic experiments performed by John Pendry over the last few years and by others and instead of using "glass" or "meta-materials" you can use empty space and these "fields".
The treatment of the rotating disk using Special Relativity is actually a very valid approach and is acknowledged in the literature. Not only that, it is very graphic and "compelling" and in keeping with Einstein. You must add in Geometric Phase to complete the picture. Other concepts which I have used before are also still applicable such as this reference...
The resemblances in mathematical structures between the optical constants of artificial electromagnetic media and some physical phenomena in field theory: Jian Qi Shen
There is no compulsion to "believe" and I only ask that you look to existing experiment for support of these ideas.
Cheers
Hi GE and All,
So, can we state/accept that a change of refractive index can be caused by a
change in the relative relationship that exists between the geometry of a light
wave and the geometry of an enclosed space (matter)? If you leave one
parameter constant, but vary the other the n changes. Of course, this
only applies within certain limits.
Any time a light wave is "slowed", or returns to its normal propagation speed
after passing thru some interactive medium, a change of refractive index occurs.
I do have a couple of questions for anyone to weigh in on or discuss.
1. At the interface between two refractive indices, will there always
be a directional change to the "normal" incidence of light?
2. Is there some known or theoretical phase "coupling" mechanism that exists
at the inteface between refractive indices? It seems that there should be, since
the photons are changing net speed and phase angles as they propagate
between different "media". I'm interested in how/why this coupling takes
place.
Regards,
LL
QUOTE
The ability to alter the velocity of light in confined spaces (local refractive index) in a vacuum as indicated by the studies of Dr. Taco Visser and the paper on Relativistic Rotating Disks...
So, can we state/accept that a change of refractive index can be caused by a
change in the relative relationship that exists between the geometry of a light
wave and the geometry of an enclosed space (matter)? If you leave one
parameter constant, but vary the other the n changes. Of course, this
only applies within certain limits.
Any time a light wave is "slowed", or returns to its normal propagation speed
after passing thru some interactive medium, a change of refractive index occurs.
I do have a couple of questions for anyone to weigh in on or discuss.
1. At the interface between two refractive indices, will there always
be a directional change to the "normal" incidence of light?
2. Is there some known or theoretical phase "coupling" mechanism that exists
at the inteface between refractive indices? It seems that there should be, since
the photons are changing net speed and phase angles as they propagate
between different "media". I'm interested in how/why this coupling takes
place.
Regards,
LL
Good Elf, C2, NF, TRoc, et al,
I think it would be safe to say
that some of the comments stated on this post in connecting all the possibilities of the DSE -- you will not find in any textbook or Physics Journal as of today.
BTW, that is good.
Best and hope the year is treating everyone with respect.
I will need time to answer all the messages but will do my best.
ciao_
yquantum
I think it would be safe to say
BTW, that is good.
Best and hope the year is treating everyone with respect.
I will need time to answer all the messages but will do my best.
ciao_
yquantum
Hello All,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index
This quote above is exactly explaining what would happen with surface
polaritons/plasmons in slit sidewall dielectric EM fields that are interacting with
photon EM fields.
IMO, depending upon the photon frequency and the slit geometry, part of the wave
will maintain its normal phase angle relationship while the wavelets that are in
contact with the edges of the dielectric surface fields will incur some refraction
phase delays. This is what causes the refraction that we see from a single slit.
I'm still favoring the previously proposed surface plasmon/polariton interference model
along the output wall between the slits which I think occurs due to natural
vibrations in the atomic "lattice" structure regardless of the wall material used.
I have seen nothing else that offers a workable physical model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index
This quote above is exactly explaining what would happen with surface
polaritons/plasmons in slit sidewall dielectric EM fields that are interacting with
photon EM fields.
IMO, depending upon the photon frequency and the slit geometry, part of the wave
will maintain its normal phase angle relationship while the wavelets that are in
contact with the edges of the dielectric surface fields will incur some refraction
phase delays. This is what causes the refraction that we see from a single slit.
I'm still favoring the previously proposed surface plasmon/polariton interference model
along the output wall between the slits which I think occurs due to natural
vibrations in the atomic "lattice" structure regardless of the wall material used.
I have seen nothing else that offers a workable physical model.

A gradient-index lens with a parabolic variation of refractive index (n) with radial distance (x). The lens focuses light in the same way as a conventional lens.
LL
QUOTE
At the microscale, an electromagnetic wave's phase velocity is slowed in a material because the electric field creates a disturbance in the charges of each atom (primarily the electrons) proportional to the permittivity of the medium. The charges will, in general, oscillate slightly out of phase with respect to the driving electric field. The charges thus radiate their own electromagnetic wave that is at the same frequency but with a phase delay. The macroscopic sum of all such contributions in the material is a wave with the same frequency but shorter wavelength than the original, leading to a slowing of the wave's phase velocity. Most of the radiation from oscillating material charges will modify the incoming wave, changing its velocity. However, some net energy will be radiated in other directions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index
This quote above is exactly explaining what would happen with surface
polaritons/plasmons in slit sidewall dielectric EM fields that are interacting with
photon EM fields.
IMO, depending upon the photon frequency and the slit geometry, part of the wave
will maintain its normal phase angle relationship while the wavelets that are in
contact with the edges of the dielectric surface fields will incur some refraction
phase delays. This is what causes the refraction that we see from a single slit.
I'm still favoring the previously proposed surface plasmon/polariton interference model
along the output wall between the slits which I think occurs due to natural
vibrations in the atomic "lattice" structure regardless of the wall material used.
I have seen nothing else that offers a workable physical model.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| At the microscale, an electromagnetic wave's phase velocity is slowed in a material because the electric field creates a disturbance in the charges of each atom (primarily the electrons) proportional to the permittivity of the medium. The charges will, in general, oscillate slightly out of phase with respect to the driving electric field. The charges thus radiate their own electromagnetic wave that is at the same frequency but with a phase delay. The macroscopic sum of all such contributions in the material is a wave with the same frequency but shorter wavelength than the original, leading to a slowing of the wave's phase velocity. Most of the radiation from oscillating material charges will modify the incoming wave, changing its velocity. However, some net energy will be radiated in other directions |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index
This quote above is exactly explaining what would happen with surface
polaritons/plasmons in slit sidewall dielectric EM fields that are interacting with
photon EM fields.
IMO, depending upon the photon frequency and the slit geometry, part of the wave
will maintain its normal phase angle relationship while the wavelets that are in
contact with the edges of the dielectric surface fields will incur some refraction
phase delays. This is what causes the refraction that we see from a single slit.
I'm still favoring the previously proposed surface plasmon/polariton interference model
along the output wall between the slits which I think occurs due to natural
vibrations in the atomic "lattice" structure regardless of the wall material used.
I have seen nothing else that offers a workable physical model.
A gradient-index lens with a parabolic variation of refractive index (n) with radial distance (x). The lens focuses light in the same way as a conventional lens.
LL
Hello all
After reading and thinking about the latest round of links that have been listed, I had a "out of the box" thought. What if permeability and permittivity are mechanisms that control the rate at which magnetic and electric fields can change. Higher values result in faster change rates for the fields. This could help explain a lot.
For diffraction the falling permeability/permittivity field gradient extending from matter would influence both growing and shrinking EM fields and change the propagation vector depending on whether the EM field was growing or shrinking. Add in harmonics from moving bound or free electrons and you have a diffraction pattern going both ways behind the slit edge.
The impedance of space is frequency independent yet diffraction/refraction are frequency dependent. The falling permeability/permittivity field gradient would would affect faster frequencies more.
Now could I use de Broglie waves of matter to explain inertia. The resistance to changing electric and magnetic fields in matter. Hmmm....
Just a thought.

After reading and thinking about the latest round of links that have been listed, I had a "out of the box" thought. What if permeability and permittivity are mechanisms that control the rate at which magnetic and electric fields can change. Higher values result in faster change rates for the fields. This could help explain a lot.
For diffraction the falling permeability/permittivity field gradient extending from matter would influence both growing and shrinking EM fields and change the propagation vector depending on whether the EM field was growing or shrinking. Add in harmonics from moving bound or free electrons and you have a diffraction pattern going both ways behind the slit edge.
The impedance of space is frequency independent yet diffraction/refraction are frequency dependent. The falling permeability/permittivity field gradient would would affect faster frequencies more.
Now could I use de Broglie waves of matter to explain inertia. The resistance to changing electric and magnetic fields in matter. Hmmm....
Just a thought.
Hi Montec, TRoc, GE, C2, et al,
Montec, IMO, you are moving in the right direction.
Some good information about dielectric properties, dipoles, field interactions, types of dielectric properties, index of refraction, surface charges, etc.
Look under the topic of Dielectrics: Start with section 3.1. Use the green arrow at
the bottom of the pages to advance.
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/index.html
The information provided should tie some ideas together.
Enjoy,
LL
Montec, IMO, you are moving in the right direction.
Some good information about dielectric properties, dipoles, field interactions, types of dielectric properties, index of refraction, surface charges, etc.
Look under the topic of Dielectrics: Start with section 3.1. Use the green arrow at
the bottom of the pages to advance.
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/index.html
The information provided should tie some ideas together.
Enjoy,
LL
Hi all,
Sorry for the length between posts.
I wanted to add a little more on the Hanle effect, for those interested. We are not talking about the Sun per se, but can't forget that the early experiments, and theories were completed with "natural" light, filtered through slits.
The Hanle Effect in Atomic and Molecular Lines:
A New Look at the Sun’s Hidden Magnetism
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0612/0612678.pdf
As GE said, we have a "black hole" in our understanding. This should not be "new"; collectively, we still know "next to nothing".
Here is another abstract, but without a link (it's not free). It does show the direction you can take from the above paper, into interference of "photons".
Quantum-mechanical interference in two-photon absorption: A nonlinear analog of the Hanle effect
As GE said, we have a "black hole" in our understanding. This should not be "new"; collectively, we still know "next to nothing".
Here is another abstract, but without a link (it's not free). It does show the direction you can take from the above paper, into interference of "photons".
Quantum-mechanical interference in two-photon absorption: A nonlinear analog of the Hanle effect
When an atom is irradiated by two light beams whose sum frequency corresponds to an allowed two-photon transition between two 1S states, no radiation is absorbed if the electric vectors of the two beams are perpendicular to each other. Application of a magnetic field in a direction perpendicular to the plane defined by the two electric vectors permits two-photon absorption to take place. According to quantum theory the effect is interpreted as an interference phenomenon. That is, if no field is applied, the intermediate states are degenerate and the interference is destructive; when a magnetic field is applied, two different paths through intermediate states are possible, permitting population of the upper state. The effect is related to the Hanle effect and likewise provides the basis for an experimental method of determining Landé factors.
©1985 The American Physical Society
Sorry for the length between posts.
I wanted to add a little more on the Hanle effect, for those interested. We are not talking about the Sun per se, but can't forget that the early experiments, and theories were completed with "natural" light, filtered through slits.
The Hanle Effect in Atomic and Molecular Lines:
A New Look at the Sun’s Hidden Magnetism
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0612/0612678.pdf
QUOTE
Abstract. This paper1 reviews some of the most recent advances in the application of the Hanle effect to solar physics, and how these developments
are allowing us to explore the magnetism of the photospheric regions that look
“empty” in solar magnetograms—that is, the Sun’s “hidden” magnetism. In
particular, we show how a joint analysis of the Hanle effect in atomic and molecular
lines indicates that there is a vast amount of hidden magnetic energy and
unsigned magnetic flux localized in the (intergranular) downflowing regions of
the quiet solar photosphere, carried mainly by tangled fields at sub-resolution
scales with strengths between the equipartition field values and ∼ 1 kG.
are allowing us to explore the magnetism of the photospheric regions that look
“empty” in solar magnetograms—that is, the Sun’s “hidden” magnetism. In
particular, we show how a joint analysis of the Hanle effect in atomic and molecular
lines indicates that there is a vast amount of hidden magnetic energy and
unsigned magnetic flux localized in the (intergranular) downflowing regions of
the quiet solar photosphere, carried mainly by tangled fields at sub-resolution
scales with strengths between the equipartition field values and ∼ 1 kG.
As GE said, we have a "black hole" in our understanding. This should not be "new"; collectively, we still know "next to nothing".
Here is another abstract, but without a link (it's not free). It does show the direction you can take from the above paper, into interference of "photons".
Quantum-mechanical interference in two-photon absorption: A nonlinear analog of the Hanle effect
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Abstract. This paper1 reviews some of the most recent advances in the application of the Hanle effect to solar physics, and how these developments are allowing us to explore the magnetism of the photospheric regions that look “empty” in solar magnetograms—that is, the Sun’s “hidden” magnetism. In particular, we show how a joint analysis of the Hanle effect in atomic and molecular lines indicates that there is a vast amount of hidden magnetic energy and unsigned magnetic flux localized in the (intergranular) downflowing regions of the quiet solar photosphere, carried mainly by tangled fields at sub-resolution scales with strengths between the equipartition field values and ∼ 1 kG. |
As GE said, we have a "black hole" in our understanding. This should not be "new"; collectively, we still know "next to nothing".
Here is another abstract, but without a link (it's not free). It does show the direction you can take from the above paper, into interference of "photons".
Quantum-mechanical interference in two-photon absorption: A nonlinear analog of the Hanle effect
When an atom is irradiated by two light beams whose sum frequency corresponds to an allowed two-photon transition between two 1S states, no radiation is absorbed if the electric vectors of the two beams are perpendicular to each other. Application of a magnetic field in a direction perpendicular to the plane defined by the two electric vectors permits two-photon absorption to take place. According to quantum theory the effect is interpreted as an interference phenomenon. That is, if no field is applied, the intermediate states are degenerate and the interference is destructive; when a magnetic field is applied, two different paths through intermediate states are possible, permitting population of the upper state. The effect is related to the Hanle effect and likewise provides the basis for an experimental method of determining Landé factors.
©1985 The American Physical Society
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRA/v32/i5/p2739_1
The "intermediate state" serves as the "interaction medium". I think you can see that the terms "constructive and destructive" interference have a connection to the coupled state (orthogonal) of the E and B fields. Otherwise, our "degenerative state" (that is equal energy, normally resonant) would have been constructive. The other thing to think about, is the "linearity" being changed. When the magnetic field is applied in this situation, we get the non-linear affect of accessing the "upper state", and have the familiar "2 path interference".
LL-
If you start looking very (quantum) closely, as we are doing, and consider the "evolving" states of refraction index, you start to get a different picture than the "ideal state" Physics tries to have us buy into. If you count the "light/matter" interaction as an interface, the answer is "no".
The RI of air is 1.003. This means that the group velocity is slowed down, and the only way that happens is the time "subtracted" from the measurement, while the energy is "inside" the atom (in the process of re-emission). If you do the math, you'll get quite a few interactions with gas molecules being necessary to slow down the light, even by that small amount.
As pointed out in this thread several times (as evidence for NON-interference), MOST of the light does NOT change direction (scattered), either in free space, or in the air~gas. This is why I've asked the question "what is transparency"? It does NOT means that "nothing" is happening, from the QM perspective. We still have transactions taking place. The thing that seems to fit here is "braking radiation" (sorry I can't remember how to spell "bralmshtrung"
). The "photon beam" from the ~wavelength (limit) rectangle slit sets the stage for polarization/angular momentum "coherence". This allows us to SEE the process that is always happening, but "overshadowed" by the "normal" response. Remember, the "diffraction pattern" disappears at a certain distance. The DSE is a "micro look" at a "macro phenomenon". Also think about the REAL RI of space, since the "vacuum" is not "ideally perfect".
It's not exactly "1" .
The slit does allow higher energies through, so we are going to have changing effects taking place. Geometrical alignments, ionization, changing RI, backscattering, internal reflectance, etc. This is not "black and white" !
I still would like to link some more references, before continuing.
This page gives a good summary of the different approaches to E & B fields applied to "the most important factors that determine the energy levels of atoms and molecules." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_level As well as "resonant" terms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_energy_level, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bound_states with "negative" energies.
More later...
ciao,
T.Roc
The "intermediate state" serves as the "interaction medium". I think you can see that the terms "constructive and destructive" interference have a connection to the coupled state (orthogonal) of the E and B fields. Otherwise, our "degenerative state" (that is equal energy, normally resonant) would have been constructive. The other thing to think about, is the "linearity" being changed. When the magnetic field is applied in this situation, we get the non-linear affect of accessing the "upper state", and have the familiar "2 path interference".
LL-
QUOTE
1. At the interface between two refractive indices, will there always
be a directional change to the "normal" incidence of light?
be a directional change to the "normal" incidence of light?
If you start looking very (quantum) closely, as we are doing, and consider the "evolving" states of refraction index, you start to get a different picture than the "ideal state" Physics tries to have us buy into. If you count the "light/matter" interaction as an interface, the answer is "no".
The RI of air is 1.003. This means that the group velocity is slowed down, and the only way that happens is the time "subtracted" from the measurement, while the energy is "inside" the atom (in the process of re-emission). If you do the math, you'll get quite a few interactions with gas molecules being necessary to slow down the light, even by that small amount.
As pointed out in this thread several times (as evidence for NON-interference), MOST of the light does NOT change direction (scattered), either in free space, or in the air~gas. This is why I've asked the question "what is transparency"? It does NOT means that "nothing" is happening, from the QM perspective. We still have transactions taking place. The thing that seems to fit here is "braking radiation" (sorry I can't remember how to spell "bralmshtrung"
The slit does allow higher energies through, so we are going to have changing effects taking place. Geometrical alignments, ionization, changing RI, backscattering, internal reflectance, etc. This is not "black and white" !
I still would like to link some more references, before continuing.
This page gives a good summary of the different approaches to E & B fields applied to "the most important factors that determine the energy levels of atoms and molecules." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_level As well as "resonant" terms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_energy_level, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bound_states with "negative" energies.
More later...
ciao,
T.Roc
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