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frater plecticus
QUOTE
And YES, it was the Al Queda funded Arab jihadists who were solely responsible for all the death and destruction of 9/11.




Show me the proof.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (einsteen+Sep 18 2007, 05:24 AM)
OneWhiteEye,

Do you mind to summarize your video findings one time... as far as I can understand you talk about a window washing part that moves up a little bit, I assume that is the part connected at that hat truss. The animated .gif file is a part of the antenna and that seems also to move up a little bit before the move down starts, can I conclude that the whole upper part goes up a little bit if I understand that right ? But what is the object falling away at the left of that .gif, is that smoke ?

Well, yes. I'd only visually examined time averages of a few frames and before/afters. Until making the GIF, I hadn't seen it that way myself. And previous attempts at 2-D used probably too big an area. I still doubt the validity of that method for an open region like the dark band, but...

I ran a 2-D extraction just now (since you posted 'cause I could see it a little too!) with a tighter area than before, excluding the edges of the dark band. Pretty interesting. Let me get a picture up in a second.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (einsteen+Sep 18 2007, 05:24 AM)
But what is the object falling away at the left of that .gif, is that smoke ?

Yes, light colored smoke drifting by. The black background is courtesy other smoke.
wcelliott
QUOTE
Show me the proof.


Show me the proof that it was an inside job.

You have *zero* proof supporting *any* of your positions.
OneWhiteEye
You've got good eyes, einsteen.

This is the dark band, frame 675-929. The 3 second interval of the GIF is marked with red lines. According to this, it does go up a bit, but it's mostly the tail end of what looks like an oscillation. Again, I can't put too much confidence in this method. Change the boundary slightly and you get a different result. The 2-D method requires enclosure by contrasting background which is not the case here, so I'd take it with that in mind.

For comparison, the deflection calculated on the washer (which IS more or less enclosed graphically) is about 3x the magnitude of the pre-drop oscillation in this graph. The GIF catches only the end of that already small amount, so you do have good eyes, but also beware that the GIF is resampled, antialiased, palletized, etc.

User posted image

2D subpixel analysis of dark band without any real explanation or justification
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Sep 14 2007, 01:43 AM)
Without a doubt.  The antenna moves down and to the left in the image plane during this time.

I'm still sticking by this comment because:

1) the apparent upward deflection is at 'noise' level for the feature in terms of jitter AND the newly reviled thermal effects. I count the downward motion only because it's sustained.
2) I ran some hoodoo and got supporting numbers but I can run it again and get the opposite if I put my mind to it.
3) for viewing, variations in frame brightness can make features 'breathe' and for asymmetrical features affect perception - whereas the numerical methods aren't subject to perception.

and, most importantly:

4) time averaging to eliminate fluctuation and starting at my currently chosen T zero (frame 800) - with the modest number of 1-D strips I've run - do not show significant upward deflection.

But, as I say, it's a work in progress.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (Trippy+Sep 14 2007, 10:42 PM)
Something else to consider.  If a non-burning floor collapsed partially (or fully) onto a burning floor, the sudden introduction of fuel would have increased the volume of smoke being produced by the fire.

And possibly a bellows effect to spew the heat out and ruin my hopes of fine-grained analysis.
OneWhiteEye
Oh cr*p, I just went from newbie to member with that last post. Too many posts! It took less time to merely read this forum. I need to shut up!

I miss Mel. What ever happened to him?
zoktoberfest
UC Berkeley Professor, Albolhassan Astaneh, indicated that the WTC's radical architectural construction did not conform to NYC building code, nor did it process through the permit department, ultimately deferring to federal standards. He determined that the structures were sufficiently robust, to have stood indefinitely, had not a catastrophic incident occurred. If the project, however, had complied with city ordinances; additional robustness would have been realized, sufficient to maintain integrity post impact. Therefore claims of catastrophic durability were incompatible with actual building standards utilized in the final construction. His determination, via computer modeling, concluded that the building yielded to the plane. Had the reinforcement been increased, the plane would have yielded to the building. Duh!

Did I summarize that properly?

To reiterate, there were two structural standards in effect that were applicable to the (WTC) project. The very stringent NYC requirements, and the relaxed federal ones. Which structural criteria were the architects, ultimately, prepared to satisfy? Were they given the federal waiver at the very conception, or was there an earlier design that attempted to meet favor with city, but went over budget with the investors? It is my understanding that the uniquely open and flexible WTC design would be drastically compromised into a much different building, had conventional (NYC) construction practices been imposed. Could this explain why, early on, some people believed the towers were concrete reinforced? Did they have an understanding of a previous design concept that was never implemented? Remember "Christopher" fellow BP veterans.

I'm having a "chicken or egg" moment here.

If the good professor could determine that the WTC's were structurally compromised, and would never sustain an impact as claimed, why couldn't others, prior to 9/11, make the same determination? NUE-FONZE made reference to the harmonic significance of the impact sites with respect to the towers fundamental frequency. He even wondered whether OBL fully grasped it.

Speculative logic

Premise: Buildings were sub-standard with respect to aircraft impact

premise: harmonic significance of impact points

premise: perfect arial execution observed

conclusion: OBL might have understood the first two premises, but what did he really have to accomplish the third? Could inexperienced pilots, fly massive aircraft at 550MPH, at very low altitude, trying to stay between the goal posts, while trying to find the critical harmonic point along the vertical axis with no visual target. What flight school teaches that kind of flying. You would expect at least one misaligned approach, an abort, and a go around. Heck, experienced pilots are occasionally forced to abort standard landings, and do a go around. Not these guys. Dead on perfect first time. Airline pilots only open the throttle when they reach cruising altitude (+30,000 ft). Even they have little experience, flying flat out at a 1000ft above the ground. When would they ever do that? And when would they ever be asked to thread a needle in level flight at such speeds? So, how can anyone believe that these aviation hacks, could pull off 3 absolutely perfect impacts, unless there was divine (Allah), or technological intervention.

Astaneh said. "Airplanes are not very strong, but this building was even weaker than an airplane."
http://www.insidebayarea.com/localnews/ci_6870312

Hmm...airplanes are not very strong, but yet they were able to punch a tightly focused bore through 6 levels of nuclear blast resistant walls at the Pentagon. All those video cameras in the area and all we get to see is a moment of blur. Why hold back, if it showed the plane. Wouldn't that reinforce the hijacker tale, they want us to believe.
NEU-FONZE
zoctoberfest:

Nice Post!

Now let's talk about the role of Magnusson, Robertson and Saw-Teen See in writing the FEMA Report and it's lack of criticism of the structural design of the WTC Towers...
Chainsaw,
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Sep 17 2007, 11:39 PM)
I e-mailed this to Prof. Astaneh this afternoon:

Dear Professor Astaneh,

I was very pleased to read about your new findings on the causes of the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 as recently reported on the internet.

I am not a civil engineer - I am a retired scientist - but I have researched the tragic events of September 11th, 2001, in some detail and I have come to the conclusion that the Twin Towers were doomed from the moment that they were struck by the aircraft.

I further believe that it is unacceptable that the original 1960s calculations, claiming to show that the buildings could survive aircraft impacts, are not available to researchers and subject to intense scrutiny. Professor Astaneh, if you are now saying that the Twin Towers could not have survived such impacts, why would any qualified engineer ever claim that they could?

I also believe that the NIST and FEMA Reports were mainly intended to protect the American construction industry and the designers of the WTC from any criticism and culpability for the catastrophic failures of WTC 1 & 2. Therefore I am not surprised that a proper scientific investigation, such as the one you have been undertaking for the past 5 years, would contradict the NIST and FEMA Reports and reveal the true cause(s) of the tragedy that unfolded in New York City on 9/11.

It is most regrettable that no legal actions or lawsuits associated with 9/11 have been able to make any headway in the face of the government’s position that 19 Arab jihadists were solely responsible for all the death and destruction of 9/11. That an extreme act of terror occurred in New York City on 9/11 is not in doubt. But the fact that the target buildings should have totally succumbed as they did with the loss of almost 3000 lives, needs to be investigated. If the towers were not “up to code”, and a well-designed structure could have survived the aircraft strikes, the American public has a right to know and steps should be taken to ensure that skyscrapers are better designed in the future.

In conclusion, Professor Astaneh, let me add that regardless of how the great 9/11 debate plays-out in the months ahead, I salute your tenacity and courage in speaking out at this time on this very important issue and I hope that your work leads to a reappraisal of the 9/11 tragedy.

Sincerely.....

I have to agree with you Frank, what I have found in the AP. experiments is shocking, even air voids accidentally left in the fire proofing, would doom the buildings in ordinary fires.
The Twin Towers should have been designed better, However the PA. decided to cut back on the structure to save money.
A few simple changes and the buildings would still be standing.
Daru
People can not be serious !!

WTC a "bad designed" ... LOL

It shows that OCT ers are getting desperat !

"We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer.
...
"However," he added, "I'm not saying that properly applied explosives - shaped explosives - of that magnitude could not do a tremendous amount of damage."
seattletimes

The only way to bring down the building was with explosives. Face it.
adoucette
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 18 2007, 04:48 AM)
UC Berkeley Professor,  Albolhassan Astaneh, indicated that the WTC's radical architectural construction did not conform to NYC building code, nor did it process through the permit department, ultimately deferring to federal standards. He determined that the structures were sufficiently robust, to have stood indefinitely, had not a catastrophic incident occurred. If the project, however, had complied with city ordinances; additional robustness would have been realized, sufficient to maintain integrity post impact. Therefore claims of catastrophic durability were incompatible with actual building standards utilized in the final construction. His determination, via computer modeling, concluded that the building yielded to the plane. Had the reinforcement been increased, the plane would have yielded to the building.  Duh!

Did I summarize that properly?


Yes,

But what neither you nor Astaneh nor Neu have shown is WHERE the structural strength of the WTC towers did NOT meet NYC building codes.

I refer you to NIST NCSTAR 1-1 Section E-11.2 Structural Safety - Applicable Building Codes.

The 1938 NYC building codes were in the process of being revised at the time of the WTC design.

The WTC buildings were thus allowed to be built under what would become the 1968 NYC Building codes.

This seems reasonable.

Unless of course if your work is being done for LEGAL reasons where 20/20 hindsight is the order of the day.

For instance, the 1938 codes required 3 hour fire ratings for columns, the 1968 codes lowered this to 2 hours, which is what is in use today. The SFRM was applied at thicknesses that were suppossed to give a 2 hour rating. The 1938 codes required a Fire Tower for use of the fire fighters going up. The 1968 code eliminated this provision (which is why modern buildings don't have separate fire towers anymore). Neither the 1938 nor the 1968 code required that the stairways were structural, only that they had a 2 hr fire rating and I can find NOTHING to indicate, as Astenah did, that there was ANY requirement that the building support GREATER LOADS (wind or gravity) than they were designed for. What is interesting is that, if anything, the external shell was somewhat over-engineered for the loads.

Arthur
wcelliott
QUOTE
could pull off 3 absolutely perfect impacts


They weren't perfect, they were sufficient. You don't need a perfect toss to get a grenade through a window.

By implying that the impacts had to be precise, you assert that the Dumb Arabs couldn't have pulled them off. All you need to do to fly into something is to keep the target in the middle of your windscreen. They trained pidgeons to do this in WWII, but decided to go with electronics instead. (They felt bad for the pidgeons.)

The Pentagon wasn't designed for resistance to nuclear weapons, once again you demonstrate that you're absolutely certain about stuff you know nothing about. The Pentagon was built before the Manhattan Project, and the designers knew nothing about nuclear blasts.

Maybe you should go back and check your "facts" before taking the soapbox to tell us all how naive we are.
beijingyank
[removed, offtopic]
adoucette
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 18 2007, 04:48 AM)
All those video cameras in the area and all we get to see is a moment of blur. Why hold back, if it showed the plane. Wouldn't that reinforce the hijacker tale, they want us to believe.

Apparently Zoc is a NO PLANER.

That's rich.

ROTFLMAO

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (beijingyank+Sep 18 2007, 10:19 AM)
There is plenty of proof of an inside job.

And after they start hanging the war criminals for crimes against humanity at The Hague, you DouBootlicks will be running to Paraguay.

Oh, its Beijingwanker.....

YAWN

laugh.gif

Arthur
frater plecticus
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 18 2007, 06:54 AM)

Show me the proof that it was an inside job.

You have *zero* proof supporting *any* of your positions.

I thought we had already discussed this. You should pay attention in future. I have no positions to prove.


As has been mentioned before.. the burden of proof is on you not me.

Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven (see negative proof).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

wcelliot
QUOTE
Bin Laden is the one who plotted the 9/11 attacks
adoucette
I guess you missed OBL admitting to it (after he first denied it) and then Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confession to planning the attack, or the succession of video tapes released of the hijackers over the years:

From the Khalid transcript:

"I was responsible for the 9/11 operation from A to Z,"

Please do try to keep up.

But even BETTER, take this political crap to a POLITICAL forum.

If you must post here, please try to stick to SCIENCE.

Arthur
carterelliott
QUOTE
But even BETTER, take this political crap to a POLITICAL forum.


Amen.

But the real problem is that the CDiots' position isn't based in physics, their whole argument rests on politics.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Sep 18 2007, 12:47 AM)
David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 18 2007, 06:37 AM)
The WTC buildings were thus allowed to be built under what would become the 1968  NYC Building codes.

What is interesting is that, if anything, the external shell was somewhat over-engineered for the loads.

And the events of 9/11 demonstrated that under extreme events, the 1968 code wasn't good enough. I am under the impression that building codes are being upgraded to require more consideration of extreme events.

Actually, no, not for wind loads. The analysis in NCSTAR1--2A clearly indicates that some portions of the exterior wall would suffer some inelastic behavior under maximum design wind loadings. Hence using modern wind engineering studies, the only conclusion I can reach is that the understanding of wind engineering at the time the towers were designed was inadequate. Indeed, in NCSTAR1--2(?) there is a lengthy section attempting to explain the required statistics. It is clear from reading this that structural engineers mostly understand relatively little statistics. The S.E. exam should be up-graded to change this.

In this, I don't mean the towers would fall down because of a 98 mph wind, considered to be a once in 705 year event by NIST. But if the analysis is correct the towers would at least require significant repairs (likely) or at most have to be demolished (unlikely).
adoucette
Building codes MAY be changed to deal with extreme events and resistance to a progressive collapse, but that is for FUTURE codes and is, of course, irrelevant to Astenah's, Neu's or Zoc's claims that the WTC did not comply with the 1968 NYC building codes.

As to the over-engineered, I was referring to the gravity loads on the external columns, not the wind loads, as they weren't relevant that day.

Still, even with wind loads I'm not sure how you derive that from the NIST Summary published in 1-2A Pg 147.

Arthur
David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 18 2007, 11:49 AM)
As to the over-engineered, I was referring to the gravity loads on the external columns, not the wind loads, as they weren't relevant that day.

Still, even with wind loads I'm not sure how you derive that from the NIST Summary published in 1-2A Pg 147.

Maybe it is necessary to over-engineer for gravity loads to have the reserve for wind loads. I dunno.

I had the wrong document. See NCSTAR1-2, around page 71 and following. For example, consider Table 4--5, page 77 (191 ordinal), which shows that some exterior wall component had a DCR of over 1.67, according to the FEA. To me, that component fails.

Then carefully read the findings in Chapter 8, page 299 (413 ordinal), related to wind performance. As I read these, they indicate the necessity of better design methods, only required because some of the components, according to their FEA, were significantly overloaded.

In any case, somewhere in NCSTAR1--2 the authors admit that wind engineering is still not throughly understood...
David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 18 2007, 11:49 AM)
Building codes MAY be changed to deal with extreme events and resistance to a progressive collapse, but that is for FUTURE codes and is, of course, irrelevant to Astenah's, Neu's or Zoc's claims that the WTC did not comply with the 1968 NYC building codes.

In earthquake prone areas such as California, the building codes have already changed. FEMA has some sort of specification regarding progressive collapse avoidance, although I am unsure of its legal status. The DoD and GSA have progressive collapse avoidance requirements for the structural engineers who design buildings for these two agencies. Not all buildings, just those thought to be at risk.

However, while I haven't read as much of NCSTAR1 as you, for the portions I have read, I see nothing that was done that was not either in accordance with code or else the cognizant officials specifically allowed a variance. (These latter few cases strike me as extremely minor and not involving safety.)
adoucette
I think the most instructive diagram is in NIST NCSTAR 1-2 - Figure E-5 pg Liii.

Here one can see the DCR values of the external column structure under design load conditions.

There are NO external members with DCR values greater than 1 and in fact, MOST of the exterior columns in the impact areas have DCR values between 0.5 and 0.75.

This clearly refutes the claim made by Astenah that the tower's external frame was "flimsy".

Arthur
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Sep 18 2007, 06:07 PM)
Well done. Fascinating.

What are the units?

Thank you. The units are frames (X) and vertical pixels (Y). The method, in the context of this video, is only good for about a half pixel max deflection. In the context of the dark band, probably not too good at all.

If I expand the area being examined by just one pixel all around (from 11x7 to 13x9), this is the result:

User posted image

Dark band with 13x9 examination boundary
zoktoberfest
In the event, someone hasn't seen these: The complete set of the original North Tower blue prints, albeit facsimiles. Every detail, of every structure, on every level, right down to the cover pages. I recall a time, when these drawings were impossible to come by. I've been out of the loop, so indulge me while I gaze upon the Holy Grail of 9/11 research.

As found on 9-11 Research

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 19 2007, 05:10 AM)
In the event, someone hasn't seen these: The complete set of the original North Tower blue prints, albeit facsimiles. Every detail, of every structure, on every level, right down to the cover pages. I recall a time, when these drawings were impossible to come by. I've been out of the loop, so indulge me while I gaze upon the Holy Grail of 9/11 research.

As found on 9-11 Research

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

Very cool. Thank you.
adoucette
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 19 2007, 01:10 AM)
In the event, someone hasn't seen these: The complete set of the original North Tower blue prints, albeit facsimiles. Every detail, of every structure, on every level, right down to the cover pages. I recall a time, when these drawings were impossible to come by. I've been out of the loop, so indulge me while I gaze upon the Holy Grail of 9/11 research.

As found on 9-11 Research

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

Holy Grail?

laugh.gif

These have been available for a long time now and AFAIK haven't resulted in a SINGLE significant revelation.

Seems NIST was telling the truth about the towers after all.

Arthur

OneWhiteEye
The graphs I posted look very tantalizing but they are definitely wrong. I judge the total motion over these frames to be very close to 3 pixels just by looking at it, whereas this method puts it at just under a half pixel. Totally useless. Not trying to yank anyone's chain or look incompetent. The 2D thing is inapplicable to this region and I posted the graphs without having a look to check it out. Sorry.

Again, this is only expected to work when the region of interest is enclosed by a contrasting background. The inaccuracy is exacerbated by my choice of a smaller region, which I thought might make it better. I haven't figured out how to treat the antenna yet.

David B. Benson, thanks for asking about the units, because it made me look at the actual values and realize how off the mark it is!

What I need to do now is just draw some lines and convert those to numbers.
zoktoberfest
QUOTE (zoktoberfest @ Sep 19 2007, 01:10 AM)
In the event, someone hasn't seen these: The complete set of the original North Tower blue prints, albeit facsimiles. Every detail, of every structure, on every level, right down to the cover pages. I recall a time, when these drawings were impossible to come by. I've been out of the loop, so indulge me while I gaze upon the Holy Grail of 9/11 research.

As found on 9-11 Research

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html


QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 18 2007, 09:19 PM)
Holy Grail?

laugh.gif

These have been available for a long time now and AFAIK haven't resulted in a SINGLE significant revelation.

Seems NIST was telling the truth about the towers after all.

Arthur

Indeed a poor turn of phrase, implying the fruits of an out come, instead of the process leading to it. Speaking of fruits, if we still an accessible edit function, I would have immediately corrected "Holy Grail" to "forbidden fruit" since the blueprints were under lock and key following 9/11.

How foolish of me to carelessly speak of the "Grail" around (King) arthur

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm
NEU-FONZE
Anyone who has visited this forum over the past year or two has surely noticed Arthur's oft-repeated mantra that no qulified engineer or scientist has come forward with any legitimate criticism of the impeccable NIST REPORT. Hence the NIST REPORT stands unchallenged and unrefuted as the one and only TRUTH about the collapse of WTC 1 & 2.

So when a scientist or engineer does in fact step up to bat and makes a point or two that hints of criticism of NIST, the ever vigilant Arthur calls FOUL!

Thus the scientist or engineer who had the temerity to so much as utter a single word of doubt about 9/11 is immediately branded by Arthur as INCORRECT: a poor researcher who is ill-informed and easily refuted. This is apparently a self-evident TRUTH because Arthur says so, and Arthur knows best because he has received enlightenment from the genius scientists and engineers at NIST.

Thus, so Arthur tells us, Lane, Quintere, Astaneh, Cherepanov et al. are right up there with Jones and Wood.... loony-tunes and CDidiots who blaspheme the holy word of NIST and are therefore to be despised and rejected of men!

Or, Arthur, tell me I'm missing something.....
newton
zoktoberfest,
laugh.gif

neu-fonze,
laugh.gif
David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 18 2007, 06:55 PM)
I think the most instructive diagram is in NIST NCSTAR 1-2 - Figure E-5 pg Liii.

Here one can see the DCR values of the external column structure under design load conditions.

There are NO external members with DCR values greater than 1 ...

All the ones in red have a calculated DCR equal to or greater than 1.08. All the ones in yellow have a calculated DCR equal to or greater than 1.00 but less than 1.08. Look again. dry.gif

However, Astaneh's claim of "flimsy" is obviously wrong: (1) the towers stood for over 30 years, and (2) the original design load conditions were for a 98 mph wind at the top. I assert the towers would have stood up under these conditions, more than Astaneh himself could do. wink.gif

His criticisms, at least those reported here, seem either wrong or petulantly childish to me...
carterelliott
QUOTE
tell me I'm missing something.....


Yes, that Arthur's been right every time.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (carterelliott+Sep 19 2007, 11:04 AM)
Yes, that Arthur's been right every time.

Almost. wink.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Sep 19 2007, 12:29 PM)
Thus, so Arthur tells us, Lane, Quintere, Astaneh, Cherepanov et al. are right up there with Jones and Wood.... loony-tunes and CDidiots who blaspheme the holy word of NIST and are therefore to be despised and rejected of men!

Or, Arthur, tell me I'm missing something.....

I might put YOU with Jones and Woods for your sillyness about AP on the tower structure, but clearly Lane, Quintere and Astaneh are NOT in that catagory.

You tend to miss a LOT.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Sep 19 2007, 01:54 PM)
All the ones in red have a calculated DCR equal to or greater than 1.08. All the ones in yellow have a calculated DCR equal to or greater than 1.00 but less than 1.08. Look again. dry.gif


I was talking about the fire impact/fire zones.

The fact that there were some DCRs between 1 and 1.08 (TRIVIAL IMHO) at the top, corners and near the bottom of the sturcture certainly didn't play a significant role in the fate of the towers that day.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 19 2007, 12:21 PM)

Indeed a poor turn of phrase, implying the fruits of an out come, instead of the process leading to it. Speaking of fruits, if we still an accessible edit function, I would have immediately corrected "Holy Grail" to "forbidden fruit" since the blueprints were under lock and key following 9/11.


Actually they were provided to qualified researchers.

Like Astenah.

But, you imply that there was something SINISTER about the fact that the 19 BOOKS that represent the WTC engineering drawings weren't immediately 'made public'.

But now its clear that NOTHING SINISTER was being covered up.

Your "Forbidden Fruit" turned out to be an ordinary apple.

Arthur
David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 19 2007, 11:52 AM)
I was talking about the fire impact/fire zones.

The fact that there were some DCRs between 1 and 1.08 (TRIVIAL IMHO) at the top,  corners and near the bottom of the sturcture[sic] certainly didn't play a significant role in the fate of the towers that day.

Oh.

You misunderstand the figure. Those are the loads for a 98 mph wind. The red indicates calculated DCRs equal to or greater than 1.08 under those wind conditions. The large swathes of yellow indicate DCRs between 1.00 and 1.08 under those wind conditions, as you say, a trivial over-loading.

By that as it may, at the time of impact only a moderate breeze was blowing and so the average DCR of the exterior wall columns was only 0.2! (And surely none was anywhere even near 1.00).

Probably an stronger point needs to be made: since the towers were designed to survive hurricane-force winds, there was considerable reserve to withstand the initial impact of the aircraft. I'd call that sturdy, not flimsy, but to each his own, I suppose... rolleyes.gif
wcelliott
QUOTE
Almost. 


Certainly more often than newton. When was he *ever* right?
adoucette
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Sep 19 2007, 03:10 PM)
Oh.

You misunderstand the figure. Those are the loads for a 98 mph wind. The red indicates calculated DCRs equal to or greater than 1.08 under those wind conditions. The large swathes of yellow indicate DCRs between 1.00 and 1.08 under those wind conditions, as you say, a trivial over-loading.

By that as it may, at the time of impact only a moderate breeze was blowing and so the average DCR of the exterior wall columns was only 0.2! (And surely none was anywhere even near 1.00).

Probably an stronger point needs to be made: since the towers were designed to survive hurricane-force winds, there was considerable reserve to withstand the initial impact of the aircraft. I'd call that sturdy, not flimsy, but to each his own, I suppose... rolleyes.gif

I understood the figure.

Astenah seems to be claiming that the buildings should have been more robust.

The Red areas could be used to show that, at least in those areas, the buildings were a bit under designed.

As Astenah claims.

I don't think any of us can argue that.

If NISTs calculations are correct and the towers had been hit with ~ 100 mph sustained winds the towers might have sustained some serious damage.

BUT

My point is those few Red areas had nothing to do with what ultimately happened that day as they were not on the fire/impact areas.

Even if they had strengthened all of those areas to DCRs < 1 under all design load conditions, the plane would have done the same damage and the towers would have still collapsed.

Arthur



David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 19 2007, 12:52 PM)
The Red areas could be used to show that, at least in those areas, the buildings were a bit under designed.

Possibly. (1) The FEA might be wrong. (2) The specifications for the towers might have just said that the towers were to withstand 98 mph winds, not specifying that no damage would occur. The result of the FEA produce results comparable to FEMA's Immediate Occupancy status, not that such existed at the time the towers were designed.

I think we are now in general agreement.
adoucette
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 19 2007, 03:29 PM)

Certainly more often than newton. When was he *ever* right?

The closest I can recall is when he said he was taking the existence of the Alien Space Lizards under advisement.

laugh.gif

Arthur
newton
geez. everything i ever said about the problems with the official explanation of the physics of the towers' demise has been repeated by mechanical engineers, phd. physicists, and structural engineers.

of course, if they're not 'our scientists', they aren't scientists at all, eh, big brother?

yuck it up on fantasy island, tattoo.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (newton+Sep 19 2007, 02:03 PM)
... the problems with the official explanation of the physics of the towers' demise has been repeated by


or first stated by

QUOTE
mechanical engineers
GR? biggrin.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
mechanical engineers
GR? biggrin.gif

phd.physicists
Stephen Jones? laugh.gif

QUOTE
structural engineers
Astaneh? Nope. Who then? huh.gif
metamars
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 16 2007, 03:06 AM)

I'm just dying to hear more about this.

Sources?

laugh.gif

Source (singular) is a first cousin of mine who took a Ph.D. in Applied Mathematics from Northwestern. Having known him literally since he was baby, I'm confident that he's not delusional or joking.

As far as I can tell, he doesn't believe in CD, either. He basically mentioned it in passing, when I went to him for help in understanding pulverization of concrete and the "pyroclastic" flow.
kahlmyishmael
QUOTE (newton+Sep 19 2007, 09:03 PM)
geez. everything i ever said about the problems with the official explanation of the physics of the towers' demise has been repeated by mechanical engineers, phd. physicists, and structural engineers.

of course, if they're not 'our scientists', they aren't scientists at all, eh, big brother?

yuck it up on fantasy island, tattoo.

Howdy Newton...Keep up the good work. I have sent you a Private Message to your PhysOrg Forum Account.
metamars
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Sep 16 2007, 08:33 AM)
No, they smuggled heroin out in the body bags of dead US servicemen.



biggrin.gif

Well, even if they did, I don't see the relevance. Certainly, smuggling requires no genius level of IQ to pull off.

I believe that the CIA's penchant for manipulation of societies, including corrupting the intelligentsia (see below), may be relevant. I have tentatively concluded that Bazant's original paper with Zhou was not merely premature, but wrong in ways that Bazant must have known at the time he wrote the paper. If he is propagating a fraud, the question arises as to why he would do so.

Should we come to learn that he has received money from the CIA, that would provide a motive (provided, of course, we also assume somebody in the CIA would have an interest in covering up CD. In the case of WTC7, a building that had the CIA as a tenant, CD is quite obvious.*)

The discussion of motive of the investigator, in general, is relevant, as you can glean, e.g., from adoucette's post :

p. 428

QUOTE

But, the PROBLEM is he(Quintere) is acting as a CONSULTANT to the family members that did not take the Govt settlement, thus its in THEIR INTEREST to find the BUILDING at fault.

i.e they can prevail in their damage claim ONLY if they can show that the buildings weren't safe even with INTACT SFRM.


Unless there's some compelling reason why we should feel that conflicts of interest of some researchers is an appropriate matter of inquiry, but that of others is verboten, I don't see the harm of asking the question. Not that I'm anticipating much in the way of an answer. sad.gif


from
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/CIAcultCW.pdf

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

But, the PROBLEM is he(Quintere) is acting as a CONSULTANT to the family members that did not take the Govt settlement, thus its in THEIR INTEREST to find the BUILDING at fault.

i.e they can prevail in their damage claim ONLY if they can show that the buildings weren't safe even with INTACT SFRM.


Unless there's some compelling reason why we should feel that conflicts of interest of some researchers is an appropriate matter of inquiry, but that of others is verboten, I don't see the harm of asking the question. Not that I'm anticipating much in the way of an answer. sad.gif


from
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/CIAcultCW.pdf


The CIA and the Cultural Cold War Revisited
by James Petras
November 1999
Monthly Review




Frances Stonor Saunders, Who Paid the Piper: The CIA and the Cultural Cold War (London: Granta Books), £20.

This book provides a detailed account of the ways in which the CIA penetrated and influenced a vast array of cultural organizations, through its front groups and via friendly philanthropic organizations like the Ford and Rockefeller Foundations. The author, Frances Stonor Saunders, details how and why the CIA ran cultural congresses, mounted exhibits, and organized concerts. The CIA also published and translated well-known authors who toed the Washington line, sponsored abstract art to counteract art with any social content and, throughout the world, subsidized journals that criticized Marxism, communism, and revolutionary politics and apologized for, or ignored, violent and destructive imperialist U.S. policies. The CIA was able to harness some of the most vocal exponents of intellectual freedom in the West in service of these policies, to the extent that some intellectuals were directly on the CIA payroll. Many were knowingly involved with CIA "projects," and others drifted in and out of its orbit, claiming ignorance of the CIA connection after their CIA sponsors were publicly exposed during the late 1960s and the Vietnam war, after the turn of the political tide to the left.

..............

The CIA, under the prodding of Sidney Hook and Melvin Lasky, was instrumental in funding the Congress for Cultural Freedom, a kind of cultural NATO that grouped together all sorts of "anti-Stalinist" leftists and rightists. They were completely free to defend Western cultural and political values, attack "Stalinist totalitarianism" and to tiptoe gently around U.S. racism and imperialism. Occasionally, a piece marginally critical of U.S. mass society was printed in the CIA-subsidized journals.

........
By 1953, Braden wrote, "we were operating or influencing international organizations in every field" (398).

......
The collaboration between the "Democratic Left" and the CIA included strike-breaking in France, informing on Stalinists (Orwell and Hook), and covert smear campaigns to prevent leftist artists from receiving recognition (including Pablo Neruda's bid for a Nobel Prize in 1964 [351]).
.......
The CIA, as the arm of the U.S. government most concerned with fighting the cultural Cold War, focused on Europe in the period immediately following the Second World War. Having experienced almost two decades of capitalist war, depression, and postwar occupation, the overwhelming majority of European intellectuals and trade unionists were anticapitalist and particularly critical of the hegemonic pretensions of the United States. To counter the appeal of communism and the growth of the European Communist Parties (particularly in France and Italy), the CIA devised a two-tier program. On the one hand, as Saunders argues, certain European authors were promoted as part of an explicitly "anticommunist program." The CIA cultural commissar's criteria for "suitable texts" included "whatever critiques of Soviet foreign policy and Communism as a form of government we find to be objective (sic) and convincingly written and timely." The CIA was especially keen on publishing disillusioned ex-communists like Silone, Koestler, and Gide. The CIA promoted anticommunist writers by funding lavish conferences in Paris, Berlin, and Bellagio (overlooking Lake Como), where objective social scientists and philosophers like Isaiah Berlin, Daniel Bell, and Czeslow Milosz preached their values (and the virtues of Western freedom and intellectual independence, within the anticommunist and pro-Washington parameters defined by their CIA paymasters). None of these prestigious intellectuals dared to raise any doubts or questions regarding U.S. support of the mass killing in colonial Indochina and Algeria, the witch hunt of U.S. intellectuals or the paramilitary (Ku Klux Klan) lynchings in the southern United States. Such banal concerns would only "play into the hands of the Communists," according to Sidney Hook, Melvin Lasky, and the Partisan Review crowd, who eagerly sought funds for their quasi-bankrupt literary operation. Many of the so-called prestigious anticommunist literary and political journals would long have gone out of business were it not for CIA subsidies, which bought thousands of copies that it later distributed free.

The second cultural track on which the CIA operated was much more subtle. Here, it promoted symphonies, art exhibits, ballet, theater groups, and well-known jazz and opera performers with the explicit aim of neutralizing anti-imperialist sentiment in Europe and creating an appreciation of U.S. culture and government. The idea behind this policy was to showcase U.S. culture, in order to gain cultural hegemony to support its military-economic empire. The CIA was especially keen on sending black artists to Europe -- particularly singers (like Marion Anderson), writers, and musicians (such as Louis Armstrong) -- to neutralize European hostility toward Washington's racist domestic policies. If black intellectuals didn't stick to the U.S. artistic script and wandered into explicit criticism, they were banished from the list, as was the case with writer Richard Wright.

The degree of CIA political control over the intellectual agenda of these seemingly nonpolitical artistic activities was clearly demonstrated by the reaction of the editors of Encounter (Lasky and Kristol, among others) with regard to an article submitted by Dwight MacDonald. MacDonald, a maverick anarchist intellectual, was a long-time collaborator with the CIA-run Congress for Cultural Freedom and Encounter. In 1958, he wrote an article for Encounter entitled "America America," in which he expressed his revulsion for U.S. mass culture, its crude materialism, and lack of civility. It was a rebuttal of the American values that were prime propaganda material in the CIA's and Encounter's cultural war against communism. MacDonald's attack of the "decadent American imperium" was too much for the CIA and its intellectual operatives in Encounter. As Braden, in his guidelines to the intellectuals, stated "organizations receiving CIA funds should not be required to support every aspect of U.S. policy," but invariably there was a cut-off point -- particularly where U.S. foreign policy was concerned (314). Despite the fact that MacDonald was a former editor of Encounter, the article was rejected. The pious claims of Cold War writers like Nicola Chiaromonte, writing in the second issue of Encounter, that "[t]he duty that no intellectual can shirk without degrading himself is the duty to expose fictions and to refuse to call `useful lies,' truths," certainly did not apply to Encounter and its distinguished list of contributors when it came to dealing with the `useful lies' of the West.

One of the most important and fascinating discussions in Saunders' book is about the fact that CIA and its allies in the Museum of Modern Art (MOMA) poured vast sums of money into promoting Abstract Expressionist (AE) painting and painters as an antidote to art with a social content. In promoting AE, the CIA fought off the right-wing in Congress. What the CIA saw in AE was an "anti-Communist ideology, the ideology of freedom, of free enterprise. Non-figurative and politically silent it was the very antithesis of socialist realism" (254). They viewed AE as the true expression of the national will. To bypass right-wing criticism, the CIA turned to the private sector (namely MOMA and its co-founder, Nelson Rockefeller, who referred to AE as "free enterprise painting.") Many directors at MOMA had longstanding links to the CIA and were more than willing to lend a hand in promoting AE as a weapon in the cultural Cold War. Heavily funded exhibits of AE were organized all over Europe; art critics were mobilized, and art magazines churned out articles full of lavish praise. The combined economic resources of MOMA and the CIA-run Fairfield Foundation ensured the collaboration of Europe's most prestigious galleries which, in turn, were able to influence aesthetics across Europe.

AE as "free art" ideology (George Kennan, 272) was used to attack politically committed artists in Europe.
........



* After I wrote this entire post, I had a thought. Everbody knows about Silverstein, but what of the group of investors that he represents? Many people have speculated regarding a motive for the CD of WTC 7, but perhaps it's as simple as one of it's key tenants (CIA) was also an investor, and profited via insurance dollars.
As far as I know, the investment group that Silverstein heads is privately owned, so we don't know anything about who they are.
Just speculating on who is behind Silverstein, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
wcelliott
QUOTE
I'm confident that he's not delusional or joking.


What about "wrong"?

I'm still dying to hear how a cement truck got "smuggled" out of the Eastern Bloc.

And why?

I hate to be the one to point out something so obvious, but a cement truck's load will harden in the truck within a specific timeframe. I can't for the life of me figure out why the CIA would be interested in getting a truck full of set concrete. Even if they wanted to determine the characteristics of the concrete (another good question being "Why?"), it wouldn't be the same if it'd set-up inside the truck as it would be if it was poured.

Or are you insinuating that they, excuse me, "THEY", had some sinister plot that required a Russian-built cement truck as an essential part of the plan?

I think it's already been established that the towers didn't have any concrete in them, other than in the floors.

blink.gif
zoktoberfest
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 19 2007, 12:39 PM)
The closest I can recall is when he said he was taking the existence of the Alien Space Lizards under advisement.

laugh.gif

Arthur

I to, have heard accounts of (alien space) lizards. It's been a couple of years, but if I recall it went something like this:

zoktoberfest
Posted: Dec 8 2005, 09:47 PM
The duties of an ordained keeper of the Official Flame are sacrosanct. Anomalies, absolved. Objectivity, subjected. Transparency, opaqued. Now that the table has been cleared, all take a seat. The Book Of (Fairy) Tales is open to 11 September 2001 and the reading will begin... uhm one moment... as soon as I can determine, what is affecting the flame... that's odd? Oh well, lets proceed from where we left off.

Keeper: ...then a second dragon, cometh forth, this time from the south. The scaly creature burrowed into and disappeared inside the neck of the towering giant, missing the spine and wrenching a furious inferno into the east.

Skeptic: Excuse me sir. If the aircraft came in on such an oblique vector, dumping much of its' fuel and missing the core, why did the south tower sever, list and eventually fall before the other, considering that the north tower took a more direct hit and was struck sooner?

Keeper: (thinking to himself: the unbelievers' skepticism is why the flame behaves oddly).... Yes, well... the dragon of Islam causeth the scrolls and tapestries to burn like the fires of hell. They scorched upon the neck of the soaring Goliath, until the head slumpeth forward. A warrior that can not hold his head high in the face of onslaught, will fall quickly, in disgrace. His noble brother to the north, made no such concessions to his honor and stood tall on the battle field, until the inevitable demise from the breath of the beast.

Skeptic: Sir, the Pentagon sustained unusual damage, considering the size and type of aircraft, that supposedly hit it.

Keeper: The third dragon was the most swift of all. In flight, it turneth this way and that, over much of the incognizant kingdom. When it finally cometh into the occult region of the five faces, it maketh a final and most abrupt switchback, to engage the mighty castle of war. The furious flapping of mighty wings, did almost touch the earth. As the beast prepared to strike, it spewed forward a fury of flame and bared prodigious teeth. It then became a slender biting serpent, masticating voraciously into the great fortress a deep portal; and then the beast was no more. Only a lingering conflagration, to suggest it was ever there.

Skeptic: hhmmm--uh-- sir, can you comment on the newly released videos that captured powerful explosions occurring just prior to the south tower collapse.

Keeper: Before the fiery lizard was about to be entombed by the wreckage of begotten conquest, it thrashed about periodically like the slow pounding of a great drum; to begin the end. That is what your mortal ears perceiveth, from across the chasm of dark waters.

Skeptic: I-I-I don't know what to say to that.

Keeper: Then be silent. Your inquiries disturb the flame. Behold the burning of the truth.
wcelliott
QUOTE
Here, it promoted symphonies, art exhibits, ballet, theater groups, and well-known jazz and opera performers with the explicit aim of neutralizing anti-imperialist sentiment in Europe and creating an appreciation of U.S. culture and government.


Those BASTARDS!!!

laugh.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Here, it promoted symphonies, art exhibits, ballet, theater groups, and well-known jazz and opera performers with the explicit aim of neutralizing anti-imperialist sentiment in Europe and creating an appreciation of U.S. culture and government.


Those BASTARDS!!!

laugh.gif

that grouped together all sorts of "anti-Stalinist" leftists and rightists. They were completely free to defend Western cultural and political values, attack "Stalinist totalitarianism" and to tiptoe gently around U.S. racism and imperialism.


I guess it's OK when pro-Marxist authors publish this cr@p for gullible pseudo-intellectual Westerners to consume. Hate to burst your bubble, mate, but the KGB was just as active doing the same thing here in the West. (That book, for instance, sounds like one of theirs.)

I especially liked the quotes around "Stalinist totalitarianism", as if there were in reality no such thing.

And how many Russians died in his purges?
David B. Benson
This is physics? rolleyes.gif
wcelliott
QUOTE
This is physics? 


Are any of the CDiots' positions based in physics?

Point taken, but explaining physics to newdumb/zoktoberpest/Darube is a complete waste of time, as none of them care whether the physics supports their political views. On occasion, it seems worth pointing out that their politics are as naive as their knowledge of physics is weak.

They argue from the perspective that they're more enlightened philosophically than us dumb technodroids. I'm more than happy to talk political philosophy and show them the errors of their naive political views. Sticking strictly to physics might appear to them that we have no stomach to match them in the political/philosophical arena. Avoiding politics only makes this thread pointless, they don't care that the physics doesn't support their positions, they're arguing politics, not physics. To them, this is just an opportunity to spread their agitprop.
adoucette
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Sep 19 2007, 09:10 PM)
This is physics? rolleyes.gif

The CT'ers LONG AGO abandoned PHYSICS.

The problem for them is that as more and more data gets out their story gets more and more absurd.

So they are now talking about rumors that the CIA was sneaking Cement Trucks out of Russia to get Bazant to understand their sinister use of SUPER DUPER ADVANCED CONCRETE (Probably made possible by Stalinist Space Lizards.)

Arthur
wcelliott
QUOTE
So they are now talking about rumors that the CIA was sneaking Cement Trucks out of Russia...


I'm still dying to hear more about *that* covert op.

laugh.gif
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 20 2007, 12:38 AM)
I to, have heard accounts of (alien space) lizards. It's been a couple of years, but if I recall it went something like this:

...

That was a good ride.
Trippy
PLease tell me that Zoktoberfest is kidding?
adoucette
QUOTE (Trippy+Sep 20 2007, 02:19 AM)
PLease tell me that Zoktoberfest is kidding?

No CT'ers are working on dumbing down their messaging, since they have no scientific proof they have to use this level of "story telling" trying to suck in the gullible.

Example is the long ago answered question:

QUOTE
If the aircraft came in on such an oblique vector, dumping much of its' fuel and missing the core, why did the south tower sever, list and eventually fall before the other, considering that the north tower took a more direct hit and was struck sooner?


Which ignores the FACTS that the plane that hit the WTC 2 was going much faster, thus carried much more energy. That the amount of fuel burned inside the tower was not a significant factor to EITHER tower. That WTC 2 was hit on the "short" side, where the core columns were half the distance to the exterior wall, thus the plane arrived at the core carrying far more of this energy. That the plane did more damage to more core columns in WTC 2 than in WTC 1, including taking out one of the massive corner core columns (the 4 corner core columns were larger than most core columns). That the asymmetrical nature of the damage was worse from a structural point of view than the center hit on WTC 1 and finally that the fire was also asymmetrical, staying predominately on one side of the tower, not surprisingly the side that bowed in and led to the failure.

Of course Zoc knows ALL of this as each and every one of these points has been discussed in this thread.

So its NOT that he doesn't know the FACTs.

Its that he doesn't CARE about them.

Never has.

Arthur
beijingyank
[removed, offtopic]
TaddPeake
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 19 2007, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE (zoktoberfest @ Sep 19 2007, 01:10 AM)
In the event, someone hasn't seen these: The complete set of the original North Tower blue prints, albeit facsimiles. Every detail, of every structure, on every level, right down to the cover pages. I recall a time, when these drawings were impossible to come by.

"Impossible" is just plain wrong.

One of my family worked for one of the firms that built the WTC. We had a set of original blueprints in storage.

About a week after 9/11, some early WTC CT'ers we ran into told us, "if only we could see the blueprints, we could prove it was a controlled demolition!" (or whatever they were saying back then)

We offered to let them have our blueprints copied. They declined. No fooling.

I guess it was too good a story to say the blueprints we're being kept from them as part of the conspiracy.

It was a huge deal, to work on the Towers. There were dozens (maybe hundreds) of sets of blueprints, some of which were kept as mementos like ours, but many more as records in the offices of firms that worked on the project as proofs against liability, and so one.

If you couldn't get your hands on a set, you just weren't trying very hard.
zoktoberfest
The "Great Divide" that bifurcates though this once great nation; by default, also runs through this forum. It's not about "more physics or less, it's about how some chose to fiddle while Rome burns. Or is it the fiddlers who are setting the torch? Besides arthur, are the rest of you on a payroll? Are you involved in some kind of technical assignment, so serious, that the effects of eclectic levity could alter some grand purpose? This is a public forum not a private enterprise. Right? Am I missing something here?

Why does the accepted official account require so much reinforcement, after the fact? Is its' integrity no better than pre-Katrina levees? I find it hilarious, for lack of a better word, that you spend so much energy dealing with the theoretical behavior of certain sub structural components when you could've had the real thing to hold in your hands, to observe, to test, to measure, to analyze... had "they" respected the evidence. I never hear you question the efficacy, or fathom the ultimate purpose of destroying the elements of the most important aftermath in recent history, so quickly, so completely.

9/11 is an event, that has been deconstructed into countless singular images. Few, if any, can see the Chevy truck when only shown the left steering arm. So to, the deconstructed images need to be sequenced and played at the required speed to approach a more comprehensive understanding of what happened 6 years ago.

You demonstrate the intellectual elasticity, and philosophical playfulness of dark-sun-glassed, secrete service agents on duty. Perhaps this new research into the workings of the human mind will shed some light on the behavioral demeanor witnessed here.


Study finds left-wing brain, right-wing brain
Even in humdrum nonpolitical decisions, liberals and conservatives literally think differently, researchers show.
By Denise Gellene
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

September 10, 2007

Exploring the neurobiology of politics, scientists have found that liberals tolerate ambiguity and conflict better than conservatives because of how their brains work.

In a simple experiment reported todayin the journal Nature Neuroscience, scientists at New York University and UCLA show that political orientation is related to differences in how the brain processes information.

Previous psychological studies have found that conservatives tend to be more structured and persistent in their judgments whereas liberals are more open to new experiences. The latest study found those traits are not confined to political situations but also influence everyday decisions.

The results show "there are two cognitive styles -- a liberal style and a conservative style," said UCLA neurologist Dr. Marco Iacoboni, who was not connected to the latest research.

Participants were college students whose politics ranged from "very liberal" to "very conservative." They were instructed to tap a keyboard when an M appeared on a computer monitor and to refrain from tapping when they saw a W.

M appeared four times more frequently than W, conditioning participants to press a key in knee-jerk fashion whenever they saw a letter.

Each participant was wired to an electroencephalograph that recorded activity in the anterior cingulate cortex, the part of the brain that detects conflicts between a habitual tendency (pressing a key) and a more appropriate response (not pressing the key). Liberals had more brain activity and made fewer mistakes than conservatives when they saw a W, researchers said. Liberals and conservatives were equally accurate in recognizing M.

Researchers got the same results when they repeated the experiment in reverse, asking another set of participants to tap when a W appeared.

Frank J. Sulloway, a researcher at UC Berkeley's Institute of Personality and Social Research who was not connected to the study, said the results "provided an elegant demonstration that individual differences on a conservative-liberal dimension are strongly related to brain activity."

Analyzing the data, Sulloway said liberals were 4.9 times as likely as conservatives to show activity in the brain circuits that deal with conflicts, and 2.2 times as likely to score in the top half of the distribution for accuracy.

Sulloway said the results could explain why President Bush demonstrated a single-minded commitment to the Iraq war and why some people perceived Sen. John F. Kerry, the liberal Massachusetts Democrat who opposed Bush in the 2004 presidential race, as a "flip-flopper" for changing his mind about the conflict.

Based on the results, he said, liberals could be expected to more readily accept new social, scientific or religious ideas.

"There is ample data from the history of science showing that social and political liberals indeed do tend to support major revolutions in science," said Sulloway, who has written about the history of science and has studied behavioral differences between conservatives and liberals.

Lead author David Amodio, an assistant professor of psychology at New York University, cautioned that the study looked at a narrow range of human behavior and that it would be a mistake to conclude that one political orientation was better. The tendency of conservatives to block distracting information could be a good thing depending on the situation, he said.

Political orientation, he noted, occurs along a spectrum, and positions on specific issues, such as taxes, are influenced by many factors, including education and wealth. Some liberals oppose higher taxes and some conservatives favor abortion rights.

Still, he acknowledged that a meeting of the minds between conservatives and liberals looked difficult given the study results.

"Does this mean liberals and conservatives are never going to agree?" Amodio asked. "Maybe it suggests one reason why they tend not to get along."

denise.gellene@latimes.com

OneWhiteEye
Here's my latest composition for fiddle, though it's really just a cover of someone else's tune. These come from digitized hand-drawn points from one video, the same one I've been posting about lately. Choose the set that fits best or take all three.

einsteen posted data obtained from this video earlier in the thread so this is nothing new. There are differences in our methodology and since I'll eventually post other datasets I wanted to include this video for completeness. I don't know that one method is better than the other; they should give roughly equivalent results but the presentation is a little different.

I'd complained about the quality of videos but, for hand-drawn curves, this one is plenty good. Maybe the others I've got are, too; we'll see. Still need to order DVDs.

Three datasets are listed, all measurements of the dark band on the antenna from three adjacent pixel columns (447-449). There are different numbers of records because points are placed according what looks good to me. I got a little crazy in the first one and decided to cut back on the number of points for the other two, but with all there are less points than frames (which are horizontal pixels in 'einsteen images').

The units are seconds and pixels. Time zero begins at frame 800. The error band is no less than +/- 1 pixel, despite the number of significant digits. In this video, 18 floors have a vertical component measured at 258.67 pixels, though it's good to keep in mind the floors are measured at the wall and these curves come from the antenna, about another 100 ft distant from the camera.


Pixel Column 447
CODE

0.0028,0.0000
0.6606,0.0835
1.4802,0.0000
2.0405,0.0835
2.4753,0.0835
2.8321,0.0835
3.1666,0.0835
3.4928,0.2506
3.7325,0.5013
4.0029,1.0025
4.2287,2.0050
4.3458,2.9240
4.4628,4.0936
4.6412,6.2656
4.7249,7.6024
4.8280,9.5239
4.9367,11.6124
5.0287,13.7845
5.1792,17.6274
5.2796,20.5514
5.3827,24.2273
5.4998,28.5715
5.5695,31.4119
5.6782,36.0068
5.7563,39.8497
5.8343,43.3585
5.9319,48.1204
6.0071,52.0469
6.0685,55.3050
6.1354,58.8973
6.1911,62.3225
6.2524,65.9985
6.2999,69.0895
6.3470,72.0052
6.4224,76.3514
6.4894,80.7019
6.5535,85.2967
6.6343,90.7269
6.7068,95.7395
6.7904,101.7545
6.8688,107.2139
6.9217,111.0547
7.0051,117.7020
7.0901,124.1977
7.1923,132.3201
7.2888,139.5865
7.3996,147.8801
7.4875,155.0607
7.5926,163.1833
7.6748,169.8503
7.7570,177.1164


Pixel Column 448
CODE

0.0000,0.0000
0.6937,0.0000
1.3466,0.0000
2.0811,0.0001
2.6565,0.0001
3.1502,0.0001
3.5623,0.2447
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wcelliott
QUOTE
Am I missing something here?


Yes. Credibility.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 20 2007, 11:17 AM)
Am I missing something here?

Yes. Go back to the first page to read the limitations for this thread set by the moderator.

You are out-of-bounds. And by the way, this board is hosted in Britain, I believe.

The fact is that no 'new physics' is required to understand the collapse of the towers. Just 'old physics' , which requires some study to understand. It also helps to understand the scientific method. Try Wikipedia for a start.

And while it should not matter, I'll just point out that I am a life-long Progressive. That does not keep me from fully and completely comprehending that in matters physical, there is only one vote: Nature's. We try as best we can to build hypothesis and so-called laws which have predictive success.

For the collapse of the towers, the Bazant & Verdure equations do rather well, especially for WTC 1.
einsteen
Anyone seen the new Richard Gage video ? I watched the twin towers part until my dvd player was hanging due to a (google mp4 to avi) conversion error. The only misstake I found so far was the crane example where he said that the block fell as fast throught the building as through air. A lot of discussion about thermite also and the product left after the reaction. I would like to have NEU-FONZE a look if he has time. I believe it is the same vid as here

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10025

He mentions NYFD experts, Leslie Robertson and Mark Loizeaux about the molten iron and said the NIST chief was lying through his teeth . That's an accusation!
metamars
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 20 2007, 01:24 AM)

Are any of the CDiots' positions based in physics?



Oh, why the baseless accusation? You see, I've already ordered rail cars and velcro from Acme Physic Apparatus Co., and intend to vigorously test the Bazant, Le, Greening, Benson theory! Even though we know that their physics prowess is only exceeded by your own and adoucette's, it seems that they prefer to 'test' their theory in - hmm, what shall we call it? - a virtual fashion.

After proving its worth (or, alternatively, proving it's a pile of poo), I will then go on to bigger and better things. I mean, if rail cars and velcro will allow me to test BLGB, why can't I use it to determine whether the Higgs boson really exists, or not?

Science marches on!


P.S.: I think you're ground-breaking explanation of the WTC squibs deserves a Nobel Prize!!! And let's not forget your exceptional ability to teach physics to us lesser mortals, with virtually no recourse to pesky mathematical equations. Certainly, if the American Physical Society offers a prize for physics teaching, you are a hands-down favorite.
adoucette
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 20 2007, 02:17 PM)
Besides arthur, are the rest of you on a payroll?

I assure you I have a REAL job.

Debunking CTer's absurdities is not it though.

Arthur
David B. Benson
QUOTE (metamars+Sep 20 2007, 01:59 PM)
Acme Physic Apparatus Co.

A web trawl of the search phrase 'acme physics apparatus' turns up no such company in the first three pages.

I really don't think a 'physic apparatus' will help you at all regarding the failure of the towers. biggrin.gif
David B. Benson
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 19 2007, 06:24 PM)
On occasion, it seems worth pointing out that their politics are as naive as their knowledge of physics is weak.

I'm more than happy to talk political philosophy and show them the errors of their naive political views.

Sticking strictly to physics might appear to them that we have no stomach to match them in the political/philosophical arena.

Avoiding politics only makes this thread pointless...

To them, this is just an opportunity to spread their agitprop.

See the very first post on this thread by a moderator. That is out-of-bounds.

Your views appear to be to be essentially indistinguishable in their naivety. Take such discussion to another forum. There are plenty of those and only a couple that stick to the physics.

Use a PM to get an agreed upon site and duke it out there. Not here. Report such posts here.

Avoiding politics makes this thread one of the most worth-while ones around.

When they do, report the post.

ph34r.gif
zoktoberfest
einsteen;

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10025

Haven't seen this one yet. Thanks for the reference.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (metamars+Sep 20 2007, 01:59 PM)
... a virtual fashion.

Incorrect use of virtual. Instead, call it what it is, a computer simulation. All the rage these days, y'kno...



"A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still."
David B. Benson
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Sep 20 2007, 11:45 AM)
Here's my latest composition for ...

... though it's good to keep in mind the floors are measured at the wall and these curves come from the antenna, about another 100 ft distant from the camera.

Something to start with!

I'll keep it in mind, but without an estimate of how far away the camera was I'm not quite sure what to do with it...
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Sep 20 2007, 11:49 PM)
Something to start with!

I'll keep it in mind, but without an estimate of how far away the camera was I'm not quite sure what to do with it...

Just a statement of the obvious. Shouldn't matter too much.
wcelliott
QUOTE
with virtually no recourse to pesky mathematical equations. Certainly, if the American Physical Society offers a prize for physics teaching, you are a hands-down favorite.


I tutored Engineering Physics at my engineering school. Twenty students, 17 got "A's". I explained the math to them AFTER I explained, in plain English, the reasoning behind the math.

If math alone were persuasive, I'm sure you wouldn't need to purchase trains and velcro to understand the progressive collapses of the tower, DBB's differential equations should've been compelling enough.

And DBB, the term "naive" is the LAST descriptor anyone who knows me would use to describe anything about me. I suspect that your political/philosophical views aren't quite as well-thought-out as mine. If you'd like to move the discussion of our respective philosophies to a different forum, I'd suggest the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry's forum. It takes $45 to join, plus proof that you've taken a standardized IQ test and scored in the top 0.1%. (I used to be an officer of ISPE.) I think you'd enjoy membership.
newton
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 20 2007, 09:07 PM)
I assure you I have a REAL job.

Debunking CTer's absurdities is not it though.

Arthur

sure doesn't take much of your time, arthurs.
must be nice to have the great gazoo on your shoulder.

FRED: i wish i could be two places at once, barney.
zoktoberfest
Directed to wcelliott
"Your views appear to be essentially indistinguishable in their naivety."

By association, you are describing my political views as being nascent.

"And while it should not matter, I'll just point out that I am a life-long Progressive."

It could matter, if "they" succeed. Somethings are better left unsaid. Haven't you noticed, their "members only" sign.

If you're a life-long Progressive, and I'm a life-long Progressive, than by definition, we must share common political values. Therefore, by the identity property, any diminution you extend to me, you extend to yourself.

The eclectic includes the esoteric, but the esoteric exclude the eclectic.

By showing so much concern for the intent of the moderator, you become a de-facto agent of censorship here. I wasn't aware that progressives were into that. Perhaps the "identity property" shouldn't have been invoked after all.
newton
QUOTE
“In my opinion, the WTC investigation by NIST falls short of expectations by not definitively finding cause, by not sufficiently linking recommendations of specificity to cause, by not fully invoking all of their authority to seek facts in the investigation, and by the guidance of government lawyers to deter rather than develop fact finding.

"I have over 35 years of fire research in my experience. I worked in the fire program at NIST for 19 years, leaving as a division chief. I have been at the University of Maryland since. I am a founding member and past-Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science—the principal world forum for fire research. ...

"All of these have been submitted to NIST, but never acknowledged or answered. I will list some of these.

1. Why is not the design process of assigning fire protection to the WTC towers fully called out for fault? ...

2. Why were not alternative collapse hypotheses investigated and discussed as NIST had stated repeatedly that they would do? ...

3. Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?

4. NIST used computer models that they said have never been used in such an application before and are the state of the art. For this they should be commended for their skill. But the validation of these modeling results is in question. Others have computed aspects with different conclusions on the cause mechanism of the collapse. Moreover, it is common in fire investigation to compute a time-line and compare it to known events. NIST has not done that.

5. Testing by NIST has been inconclusive. Although they have done fire tests of the scale of several work stations, a replicate test of at least & [sic] of a WTC floor would have been of considerable value. Why was this not done? ...

6. The critical collapse of WTC 7 is relegated to a secondary role, as its findings will not be complete for yet another year. It was clear at the last NIST Advisory Panel meeting in September [2005] that this date may not be realistic, as NIST has not demonstrated progress here. Why has NIST dragged on this important investigation?"

The full text of Dr. Quintiere’s statement to the Science Committee can be found at [url]http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy24133.000/hsy24133_0f.htm[/url ]

Dr. Quintiere is one of the world’s leading fire science researchers and safety engineers. He served in the Fire Science and Engineering Division of NIST for 19 years and rose to the position of Chief of the Division. He left NIST in 1990 to join the faculty of the Department of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland, where he still serves.

Quintiere is a founding member and Past Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science (IAFSS). He is also a Fellow of the Society of Fire Protection Engineering and a Fellow of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. He has received numerous awards for his contributions to fire science research and engineering, including:

· The Department of Commerce Bronze Medal (1976) and Silver Medal (1982)

· The Howard W. Emmons Lecture Award from the IAFSS in 1986

· The Sjölin Award in 2002 for outstanding contribution to the science of fire safety by the International Forum of Fire Research Directors, NIST

· The 2006 Guise Medal by the National Fire Protection Association

full article


who does this guy think he is? foxx?

of course, one of NIST's own (former) leading fire experts is a moonbat, right arthurs? probably got all his ideas from moonbat tinfoil hat sites, NO DOUBT!!

that wtc7 report, NIST? coming right up? don't call us, we'll call you.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
“In my opinion, the WTC investigation by NIST falls short of expectations by not definitively finding cause, by not sufficiently linking recommendations of specificity to cause, by not fully invoking all of their authority to seek facts in the investigation, and by the guidance of government lawyers to deter rather than develop fact finding.

"I have over 35 years of fire research in my experience. I worked in the fire program at NIST for 19 years, leaving as a division chief. I have been at the University of Maryland since. I am a founding member and past-Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science—the principal world forum for fire research. ...

"All of these have been submitted to NIST, but never acknowledged or answered. I will list some of these.

1. Why is not the design process of assigning fire protection to the WTC towers fully called out for fault? ...

2. Why were not alternative collapse hypotheses investigated and discussed as NIST had stated repeatedly that they would do? ...

3. Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?

4. NIST used computer models that they said have never been used in such an application before and are the state of the art. For this they should be commended for their skill. But the validation of these modeling results is in question. Others have computed aspects with different conclusions on the cause mechanism of the collapse. Moreover, it is common in fire investigation to compute a time-line and compare it to known events. NIST has not done that.

5. Testing by NIST has been inconclusive. Although they have done fire tests of the scale of several work stations, a replicate test of at least & [sic] of a WTC floor would have been of considerable value. Why was this not done? ...

6. The critical collapse of WTC 7 is relegated to a secondary role, as its findings will not be complete for yet another year. It was clear at the last NIST Advisory Panel meeting in September [2005] that this date may not be realistic, as NIST has not demonstrated progress here. Why has NIST dragged on this important investigation?"

The full text of Dr. Quintiere’s statement to the Science Committee can be found at [url]http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy24133.000/hsy24133_0f.htm[/url ]

Dr. Quintiere is one of the world’s leading fire science researchers and safety engineers. He served in the Fire Science and Engineering Division of NIST for 19 years and rose to the position of Chief of the Division. He left NIST in 1990 to join the faculty of the Department of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland, where he still serves.

Quintiere is a founding member and Past Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science (IAFSS). He is also a Fellow of the Society of Fire Protection Engineering and a Fellow of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. He has received numerous awards for his contributions to fire science research and engineering, including:

· The Department of Commerce Bronze Medal (1976) and Silver Medal (1982)

· The Howard W. Emmons Lecture Award from the IAFSS in 1986

· The Sjölin Award in 2002 for outstanding contribution to the science of fire safety by the International Forum of Fire Research Directors, NIST

· The 2006 Guise Medal by the National Fire Protection Association

full article


who does this guy think he is? foxx?

of course, one of NIST's own (former) leading fire experts is a moonbat, right arthurs? probably got all his ideas from moonbat tinfoil hat sites, NO DOUBT!!

that wtc7 report, NIST? coming right up? don't call us, we'll call you.

    174    architectural and engineering professionals
and  444  other supporters including A/E students
have joined us in demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.

Everyone may join AE911Truth.org!


zeitgeist.

bless you.
wcelliott
QUOTE
one of NIST's own (former) leading fire experts is a moonbat, right arthurs?


Show me where this guy says the WTC attack was an inside job.

He's just a disgruntled ex-employee, claiming that he would've done a better job than they did.
newton
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 21 2007, 05:23 AM)

Show me where this guy says the WTC attack was an inside job.

He's just a disgruntled ex-employee, claiming that he would've done a better job than they did.

i didn't say he said it was an inside job.
thickness is only desirable in the bedroom. stop waving it around.

"just a disgruntled employee"

HAHAHA! you guys think there are no limits on the ductility of credibility.
frater plecticus
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 21 2007, 01:32 AM)
It takes $45 to join, plus proof that you've taken a standardized IQ test and scored in the top 0.1%. (I used to be an officer of ISPE.) I think you'd enjoy membership.

There you go again, blowing your own trumpet. I guess somebody has to.



Being as intelligent as you claim to be, why do you come here every day to deconstruct unofficial conspiracy theories that apparently don't even exist anyway?
metamars
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 21 2007, 01:32 AM)

I tutored Engineering Physics at my engineering school.  Twenty students, 17 got "A's". 

Ah, that may say more about your school then yourself. As a graduate student, I graded papers at Rice University for a Differential Equations class, and while I don't remember the distribution, the students were uniformly excellent, with most getting "A's". Yes, maybe as many as 85%. Most likely, none of them got any tutoring, at all, for the simple reason that they didn't need it.


QUOTE

I explained the math to them AFTER I explained, in plain English, the reasoning behind the math. 

Great. Surely you communicated to them the fact that physics is a quantitative science, and arguments can and do turn on a quantitative dime? And why is it that you can spend so much time on this forum, yet never grace us with something resembling the physics equations of which you were so proud to have explained, in days gone by?

I may not think too highly of the Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson paper, but at least they put together a consistent work that makes their ideas more accessible. Do you think they would improve their paper if they removed the mathematics? Do you not see the absurdity of this?

Perhaps a worthwhile goal for you is a ratio of one quantitative post : insult ("CDiot"). Think about it.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE

I explained the math to them AFTER I explained, in plain English, the reasoning behind the math. 

Great. Surely you communicated to them the fact that physics is a quantitative science, and arguments can and do turn on a quantitative dime? And why is it that you can spend so much time on this forum, yet never grace us with something resembling the physics equations of which you were so proud to have explained, in days gone by?

I may not think too highly of the Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson paper, but at least they put together a consistent work that makes their ideas more accessible. Do you think they would improve their paper if they removed the mathematics? Do you not see the absurdity of this?

Perhaps a worthwhile goal for you is a ratio of one quantitative post : insult ("CDiot"). Think about it.



If math alone were persuasive, I'm sure you wouldn't need to purchase trains and velcro to understand the progressive collapses of the tower, DBB's differential equations should've been compelling enough.



When is math ever compelling, enough, in physics? Physics isn't just a theoretical science, it's an experimental one, also.

When I see people "explaining" physics theories without recourse to calculations, in a domain that has yielded to insightful calculations previously, I'm immediately suspicious. However, I'm well aware of the fact that even where mathematics is necessary, it is not sufficient, to make a physics argument stick. (Exceptions include where orders of magnituded considerations might allow recourse to common sense.)

Indeed, if you read my posts re "The Trouble with Physics", e.g., you should already know that I'm not particularly sympathetic to unverifiable physics theories.

As I have stated a few times, I'm skeptical that it's possible to produce a theory that would satisfy everybody - some type of simulation is necessary.

NEU-FONZE
wcelliott:

When you say about Quintiere that "He's just a disgruntled ex-employee, claiming that he would've done a better job than they did," do you have any evidence to support this or is this just uninformed speculation on your part?

And what do you have to say about some of the other NIST critics such as Astaneh, Lane, Cherepanov....
adoucette
QUOTE (newton+Sep 21 2007, 01:14 AM)

who does this guy think he is? foxx?

of course, one of NIST's own (former) leading fire experts is a moonbat, right arthurs? probably got all his ideas from moonbat tinfoil hat sites, NO DOUBT!!



No, he is 180 d OPPOSITE of Foxx.

Quintere believes the fires were HOTTER than NIST modeled.

Because he believes there was a higher fuel load on the floors than NIST modeled.

Up to 3X as much.

His essential disagreement with NIST is he thinks the towers would have collapsed even if the SFRM hadn't been disloged.

This is in line with the views of the group he consults with Skyscraper Saftey Committee.

What he doesn't believe is that the towers were brought down by CD.

Arthur
newton
QUOTE (adoucette+Sep 21 2007, 02:35 PM)
No, he is 180 d OPPOSITE of Foxx.

Quintere believes the fires were HOTTER than NIST modeled.

Because he believes there was a higher fuel load on the floors than NIST modeled.

Up to 3X as much.

His essential disagreement with NIST is he thinks the towers would have collapsed even if the SFRM hadn't been disloged.

This is in line with the views of the group he consults with Skyscraper Saftey Committee.

What he doesn't believe is that the towers were brought down by CD.

Arthur

he thinks the NIST did a hack job.
period.

once again, i never said anything about him saying it was a CD.

he also is 'disgruntled' that he tried to communicate his concerns, and was ignored by NIST.

he certainly agrees with foxx on one thing. the temperatures the actual steel they had reached, were not hot enough to do what NIST said they did.

QUOTE
. Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?


"no evidence"

he also knows GIGO when he sees it...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
. Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?


"no evidence"

he also knows GIGO when he sees it...

But the validation of these modeling results is in question.


wcelliott
If you can't get someone to accept that gravity pulls things straight down, not to one side or the other, there's little point in showing them Newton's gravitional equation.

So far, here, people claiming to "grok physics" have asserted that it looked suspicious to them that the towers fell straight down, instead of toppling over like a felled tree.

We can't agree on which direction gravity pulls, and you're complaining that I've left out the math...

blink.gif
newton
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 21 2007, 04:06 PM)
If you can't get someone to accept that gravity pulls things straight down, not to one side or the other, there's little point in showing them Newton's gravitional equation.

So far, here, people claiming to "grok physics" have asserted that it looked suspicious to them that the towers fell straight down, instead of toppling over like a felled tree.

We can't agree on which direction gravity pulls, and you're complaining that I've left out the math...

blink.gif

you seem to have forgotten about equal and opposite reactions, and that bodies at rest prefer to remain at rest.

vector that into your nonequation.
adoucette
QUOTE (newton+Sep 21 2007, 11:32 AM)
he thinks the NIST did a hack job.
period.


Really?

From his testimony:

QUOTE
Scientists at NIST should be commended for their individual efforts in rising to the occasion of the WTC investigation. NIST should be commended for organizing an activity of this scale for the first time.


He had 5 specific issues, which considering the massive size and scope of the investigation seems not unreasonable.

Further, the fact that he has these issues does not make him RIGHT about any of them.

Folr instance one of his issues was that
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Scientists at NIST should be commended for their individual efforts in rising to the occasion of the WTC investigation. NIST should be commended for organizing an activity of this scale for the first time.


He had 5 specific issues, which considering the massive size and scope of the investigation seems not unreasonable.

Further, the fact that he has these issues does not make him RIGHT about any of them.

Folr instance one of his issues was that Moreover, it is common in fire investigation to compute a time-line and compare it to known events. NIST has not done that.


But clearly NIST did EXACTLY that.

This GLARING oversight on his part, as to what NIST did, is particularly disturbing as to his level of review of the NIST work.

One of his other issues is he thinks that NIST should have built an ENTIRE FLOOR MODEL of the WTC (200' X 200') and set it on fire to better validate their fire simulator.

Sure, great idea, but not likely with the time and budget that NIST was working with.

Similarly, as to the steel, the recovery of the Steel was NOT a NIST issue. His complaint is simply that NIST didn't complain enough that they didn't have more steel to work with.

Arthur


carterelliott
QUOTE
We can't agree on which direction gravity pulls, and you're complaining that I've left out the math...

 
(and newdum's response):

you seem to have forgotten about equal and opposite reactions, and that bodies at rest prefer to remain at rest.


If anyone can provide an equation that can fix newton's perceptual problems, please do so. I'm at a loss.

blink.gif

(For those who are confused, "wcelliott" is my home-computer username, "carterelliott" is my work-computer username. It's just easier to let IE store the passwords.)
zoktoberfest
QUOTE (metamars @ Sep 20 2007, 01:59 PM)
... a virtual fashion.

"Incorrect use of virtual. Instead, call it what it is, a computer simulation. All the rage these days, y'kno..."

Definitions of "virtual" on the Web:

Created, simulated, or carried on by means of a computer or computer network
www.onlinedegreezone.com/distance-learning_terms.php



A distinction without a difference
David B. Benson
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 20 2007, 06:32 PM)
... DBB's differential equations should've been compelling enough.

...  I suspect that your political/philosophical views aren't quite as well-thought-out as mine. ...

The differential equations were worked by, and published by, Bazant & Verdure. I can read and understand them, but my comprehension of Newtonian physics is not great enough to have developed them in the first place.

Possibly and possibly not, but I do not go off-topic here by expounding such. dry.gif
David B. Benson
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Sep 21 2007, 11:42 AM)
Definitions of "virtual" on the Web:


vir·tu·al


adjective
Definition:

...

3. physics hypothetical: describes a particle whose existence is suggested to explain observed phenomena, but is not proven or directly observable

==========
Given this is a physics board, it is probably better to avoid the computer science meaning of simulation.
einsteen
Speaking on differential equations I still believe that one should write down a nonhomogeneous model in which a solid block drops on for example 95 masses connected by F(u) functions.

Assume for example that we set all masses to zero, but not the block, then if we assume that all stories are identical the 2g/3 acceleration in the beginning implies that the composite structure of 95 stories provides a certain reaction force taht leads to a loss of 400MJ after a drop h. When the first story is broken then the other 94 stories provide a different reaction force and so on.

ps. David, I thought you were a physicist ?
wcelliott
QUOTE
Possibly and possibly not, but I do not go off-topic here by expounding such. 


I didn't mean to lash out, I think we're both pulling on the same end of the rope.

It's just frustrating to me that the primary motivation of the CDiots is political, and I'm quite capable of arguing the political side to resolution in fairly short order. Maintaining the focus on the physics-only seems like treating the symptoms of a disease while refraining from using the drug that cures it.

Incidentally, since we've been accused of everything including being Satan-worshipping 9-foot tall lizards, and since I just mentioned diseases and cures, it may be of interest that when I'm not wasting my time here trying to explain logic to newton, one of the things I'm also actively pursuing is trying to get the MSF (Doctors without Borders) to try treating the Ebola victims with nanosilver hydrosol (colloidal silver) which has been shown to be effective against a broad range of (other) viruses and has no significant risks. Towards that end I've contacted the WHO, the CDC, the MSF, the MoH of the Congo, and Dr. Paul Farmer (Harvard Medical School, active in treating diseases in third-world countries with low-cost drugs that the big pharmaceutical companies aren't "pushing"), and others, trying to get them to try treating Ebola victims with something that hasn't occurred to them. It's also very frustrating, as I haven't had any luck so far in getting anyone to even acknowledge that the idea has any merit. If I were rich, at this point, I'd just buy a %!@-ing air ticket and take a case there in my lap, but that's not happening in this lifetime, so I keep trying to get the idea out there in hopes that somebody will like my idea enough to claim it for their own and just get it done.

FWIW.
einsteen
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 21 2007, 08:23 PM)
It's just frustrating to me that the primary motivation of the CDiots is political

Why do you think that ? Do you think that Steven E Jones, a republican and many other CDiots like Richard Gage etc dislike Bush that much that they imagine planted explosives ? I think that nobody who loves his country wants to believe that, but they have to believe that because it makes much more sense for them. Crockett Grabbe (Cal-Tech physicist and if I see his face probably in the 0.01% of the Bell-Curve top) another CDiot and the list is growing.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Sep 21 2007, 07:13 AM)
... some of the other NIST critics such as Astaneh, Lane, Cherepanov....

It would be helpful to have a brief review of these criticisms, by author. I, at least, don't know what these are. sad.gif
David B. Benson
QUOTE (einsteen+Sep 21 2007, 01:15 PM)
ps. David, I thought you were a physicist ?

No. I had two years in high school and two more years in college, but have never used the mechanics part of it, just the E-M part. I have, in the last two years, reviewed the mechanics and fluid dynamics part using a Physics 101 text. That's really all that is needed here (if one leaves out the chemistry).
einsteen
And you mean electromagnetics I assume. And your Ph. D , where was that in if you don't mind saying?
David B. Benson
QUOTE (wcelliott+Sep 21 2007, 01:23 PM)
It's just frustrating to me that the primary motivation of the CDiots is political, and I'm quite capable of arguing the political side to resolution in fairly short order. Maintaining the focus on the physics-only seems like treating the symptoms of a disease while refraining from using the drug that cures it.

"A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still."

I doubt that you can significantly change anybody's mind using this narrow-bandwidth medium.

Please refrain from trying (well, do keep pointing out logical fallacies, etc.)

I suggest what you might want, in addition, is say 911blogger.com.

That is, if they will let you. I attempted to register and they point blank refused. Either a glitch in their software or they won't let anybody in with a domain name such as mine...

(My goal was to invite those who actually wanted to understand the physics [not just bloviate] to come and visit here.)
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