QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 20 2007, 04:22 PM)
einsteen
Isn't that amazing???Not really, there were many "anomolies" associated with 911. The law of averages allows for "fliers". And where the likelyhood of a PARTICULAR piece of paper surviving might be seen as great, the likelyhood that some random pieces surviving is almost a certainty(after all, tons of unburned paper did just that).
Stuff happens, get over it.
Grumpy
In the building yes, in the plane the chance for a paper to survive is much lower especially when it is one of the hijackers. I don't know if it was the only one who survived but the ratio hijackers/passengers+crew is also low.
Don't understand me wrong, I hate terrorists, I hate muslim fundamentalists (also the onces that have other believes) but this flouts the laws of reality (if that's proper English)
Isn't that amazing???Not really, there were many "anomolies" associated with 911. The law of averages allows for "fliers". And where the likelyhood of a PARTICULAR piece of paper surviving might be seen as great, the likelyhood that some random pieces surviving is almost a certainty(after all, tons of unburned paper did just that).
Stuff happens, get over it.
Grumpy
In the building yes, in the plane the chance for a paper to survive is much lower especially when it is one of the hijackers. I don't know if it was the only one who survived but the ratio hijackers/passengers+crew is also low.
Don't understand me wrong, I hate terrorists, I hate muslim fundamentalists (also the onces that have other believes) but this flouts the laws of reality (if that's proper English)
Its a moot point as I doubt many Americans would have had their passports with them. This was not an international flight.
The fact that it was turned in was more related to the fact that it WAS a passport, ie, it had an ID on it and it STUCK OUT, unlike other random pieces of paper.
The fact that it made it out of the building is not all that surprising as other material from the plane went all the way through, and later some of the light weight debris was blown out by the overpressure created when the fuel/air ignited.
As far as it MEANING anything, in regards to the hijacking, it had very little, as we already knew the identity of this hijacker PRIOR to the crash (based on the seat assignments phoned in by the Flight Attendent)
Arthur
The fact that it was turned in was more related to the fact that it WAS a passport, ie, it had an ID on it and it STUCK OUT, unlike other random pieces of paper.
The fact that it made it out of the building is not all that surprising as other material from the plane went all the way through, and later some of the light weight debris was blown out by the overpressure created when the fuel/air ignited.
As far as it MEANING anything, in regards to the hijacking, it had very little, as we already knew the identity of this hijacker PRIOR to the crash (based on the seat assignments phoned in by the Flight Attendent)
Arthur
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 20 2007, 06:45 PM)
I wonder if (assuming impact reaches elastic bedrock) whether a large spectrum of vibrational modes exist to carry off the energy, but only certain frequency ranges can result in measurable seismic waves?
No. The wave equation is the wave equation. In solid rock there are exactly four types of solutions, two body wave types (P & S) and two surface wave types (Love & Rayleigh). Rock cannot support surface waves like the ones in water.
Of course, one has to ask about the sensitivity of the seismograph at various frequencies, but the ones at LDEO are very good.
No. The wave equation is the wave equation. In solid rock there are exactly four types of solutions, two body wave types (P & S) and two surface wave types (Love & Rayleigh). Rock cannot support surface waves like the ones in water.
Of course, one has to ask about the sensitivity of the seismograph at various frequencies, but the ones at LDEO are very good.
Has any conspiracy theorist written something on:
How much explosives [ = X ] were used [where] to create the seismic data they claim is explosives?
Why would they use [X] in [that] location of the towers to cause the seismic readings? Why was it a needed part of the conspiracy story? Assuming they are smart enough to pull this off, what was the reason they had to risk this part of the conspiracy story? Because any placement of explosives is a risk. It sounds to me this part of the conspiracy story would be a HUGE risk.
I'm looking for quantitative expressions and values.
How much explosives [ = X ] were used [where] to create the seismic data they claim is explosives?
Why would they use [X] in [that] location of the towers to cause the seismic readings? Why was it a needed part of the conspiracy story? Assuming they are smart enough to pull this off, what was the reason they had to risk this part of the conspiracy story? Because any placement of explosives is a risk. It sounds to me this part of the conspiracy story would be a HUGE risk.
I'm looking for quantitative expressions and values.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 17 2007, 08:39 PM)
Let's be real about this. The people who are accusing the government of being behind 9/11 aren't driven by any desire to find the Truth, they are anti-war ideologues who figure that the more dissent they can stir up in America, the quicker we'll pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan.
TOWARDS THAT END, you will find LOTS of people who figure it's worth SPREADING LIES to INFLUENCE POLICIES. They figure that by lying, they are saving lives, and that therefore, telling lies helps save lives.
This is an easy trap to fall into, philosophically, as most people, if they figured it'd save someone's life, would lie.
The problem with this is that you don't want to make policy decisions in a democracy based on lies. Policies need to be based in truth in order for them to work.
Shortening the war by lying about the situation to mislead the ignorant (which is a big enough fraction of the voting population that it can't be ignored completely) only makes for more bad policy in an area where good policies are absolutely necessary to prevent further 9/11-type attacks.
I'm sure that every one of those shrinks assumes that there's no correlation between our current military actions and future terrorist attacks, shrinks don't think like that. (I've known lots of psych-majors, none of them were capable of thinking in realistic terms about how the world works, they were all Utopian ideologues.) Also, none of the psych-majors I knew in school had the first clue how anything mechanical worked, so they wouldn't understand a structural collapse if they were inside it when it happened.
These otherwise nice people decided that by throwing their credentials behind a "little white lie", they may have disproportionate influence over the weak-minded fools out there and get more leverage on the government to end the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that would save the lives of the troops fighting over there, and also save the lives of the terrorist-wannabes they're killing.
None of them have given the matter of what happens next any significant thought, I can assure you.
I'm certain that they couldn't care less if Iraq got taken back over by the same bloodthirsty b@st@rds who ran Saddam Hussein's Secret Police, who kidnapped and tortured and killed anyone who was accused of disloyalty to Hussein, along with their families. Those people are still around, and they're the ones making the road-side bombs that are attacking our troops and car-bombs that are killing Iraqi civilians and assassinating anyone who volunteers to work for the new government. We pull our troops out too early and we're just handing the people who believed in our commitments over to the same gang of goons who ran Iraq under Hussein. There'll be carnage at a level that will appall all those nice shrinks, but they won't accept any of the responsibility for what happens as a foreseeable consequence of their actions because their brains don't work like that, they can't foresee those consequences, because they're nice people who believe in Utopian ideals. Revenge would be unthinkable for them (the shrinks) so they don't foresee the terrorists taking revenge against the Iraqis trying to make a go of their new government.
no let's really be real.people who expose the illuminati and people who believe that the government did 9/11 come from all shapes and sizes.liberal conservative christian jew muslim black white.i guess some people don't understand something that makes sense.or some people are completely indoctrinated into purpostrous propaganda like weapons of mass destructions wich some people still believe to be true.being anti-war comes with the field because they realize the gov't did 9/11.alex jones a prominent conspiracy "theorist" is a right wing conservative.many former gov't officials popular actors and others believe that 9/11 was an inside job.just look at wtc 7 for god's sake!why is that not question?its just so ominus and evil and smacks of inside job!this article just strengthens my long held belief that alot of these people denying 9/11 was an inside job no matter how much facts are presented are nuts and in denial.just look at the plane that strook 9/11.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
TOWARDS THAT END, you will find LOTS of people who figure it's worth SPREADING LIES to INFLUENCE POLICIES. They figure that by lying, they are saving lives, and that therefore, telling lies helps save lives.
This is an easy trap to fall into, philosophically, as most people, if they figured it'd save someone's life, would lie.
The problem with this is that you don't want to make policy decisions in a democracy based on lies. Policies need to be based in truth in order for them to work.
Shortening the war by lying about the situation to mislead the ignorant (which is a big enough fraction of the voting population that it can't be ignored completely) only makes for more bad policy in an area where good policies are absolutely necessary to prevent further 9/11-type attacks.
I'm sure that every one of those shrinks assumes that there's no correlation between our current military actions and future terrorist attacks, shrinks don't think like that. (I've known lots of psych-majors, none of them were capable of thinking in realistic terms about how the world works, they were all Utopian ideologues.) Also, none of the psych-majors I knew in school had the first clue how anything mechanical worked, so they wouldn't understand a structural collapse if they were inside it when it happened.
These otherwise nice people decided that by throwing their credentials behind a "little white lie", they may have disproportionate influence over the weak-minded fools out there and get more leverage on the government to end the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that would save the lives of the troops fighting over there, and also save the lives of the terrorist-wannabes they're killing.
None of them have given the matter of what happens next any significant thought, I can assure you.
I'm certain that they couldn't care less if Iraq got taken back over by the same bloodthirsty b@st@rds who ran Saddam Hussein's Secret Police, who kidnapped and tortured and killed anyone who was accused of disloyalty to Hussein, along with their families. Those people are still around, and they're the ones making the road-side bombs that are attacking our troops and car-bombs that are killing Iraqi civilians and assassinating anyone who volunteers to work for the new government. We pull our troops out too early and we're just handing the people who believed in our commitments over to the same gang of goons who ran Iraq under Hussein. There'll be carnage at a level that will appall all those nice shrinks, but they won't accept any of the responsibility for what happens as a foreseeable consequence of their actions because their brains don't work like that, they can't foresee those consequences, because they're nice people who believe in Utopian ideals. Revenge would be unthinkable for them (the shrinks) so they don't foresee the terrorists taking revenge against the Iraqis trying to make a go of their new government.
no let's really be real.people who expose the illuminati and people who believe that the government did 9/11 come from all shapes and sizes.liberal conservative christian jew muslim black white.i guess some people don't understand something that makes sense.or some people are completely indoctrinated into purpostrous propaganda like weapons of mass destructions wich some people still believe to be true.being anti-war comes with the field because they realize the gov't did 9/11.alex jones a prominent conspiracy "theorist" is a right wing conservative.many former gov't officials popular actors and others believe that 9/11 was an inside job.just look at wtc 7 for god's sake!why is that not question?its just so ominus and evil and smacks of inside job!this article just strengthens my long held belief that alot of these people denying 9/11 was an inside job no matter how much facts are presented are nuts and in denial.just look at the plane that strook 9/11.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
QUOTE (Cubbie+Jun 20 2007, 04:36 PM)
no let's really be real.people who expose the illuminati
Well?
What are you waiting for?
Who's an illuminati and what actual evidence of their FOUL and DISPICABLE deeds do you have for us to see?
Arthur
Well?
What are you waiting for?
Who's an illuminati and what actual evidence of their FOUL and DISPICABLE deeds do you have for us to see?
Arthur
einsteen
Actually the chance for something in the front of the plane making it out would be HIGHER due to it's velocity, position and momentum. Do you think being the property of the hijacker conveys some sort of EXTRA vulnerability as opposed to a normal passenger??? Why, all the terrorists were in the front of the plane.
Grumpy
QUOTE
In the building yes, in the plane the chance for a paper to survive is much lower especially when it is one of the hijackers. I don't know if it was the only one who survived but the ratio hijackers/passengers+crew is also low.
Actually the chance for something in the front of the plane making it out would be HIGHER due to it's velocity, position and momentum. Do you think being the property of the hijacker conveys some sort of EXTRA vulnerability as opposed to a normal passenger??? Why, all the terrorists were in the front of the plane.
Grumpy
The passport story is simply impossible. People who still belive it can not be taken seriously.
Here is a clip from the 1.tower hit.
Here is a clip from the 1.tower hit.
QUOTE (Daru+Jun 20 2007, 10:08 PM)
The passport story is simply impossible.
What laws of physics does it violate?
Improbable, perhaps, but many improbable events occurred that day...
What laws of physics does it violate?
Improbable, perhaps, but many improbable events occurred that day...
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 20 2007, 10:19 PM)
What laws of physics does it violate?
Improbable, perhaps, but many improbable events occurred that day...
The funny thing is, the more improbable any given event of that fateful day, the greater the likelihood of it being woven into the 9-11 narrative as official 'historical troof' .
Improbable, perhaps, but many improbable events occurred that day...
The funny thing is, the more improbable any given event of that fateful day, the greater the likelihood of it being woven into the 9-11 narrative as official 'historical troof' .
QUOTE (Palpatane+Jun 20 2007, 12:58 PM)
Did this get posted yet?
from Purdue:
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070612HoffmannWTC.html
Yes it did, a little while back.
It's interesting to see the amount of cross-bracing on the core columns though, even if these are just shear connected beams.
from Purdue:
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070612HoffmannWTC.html
Yes it did, a little while back.
It's interesting to see the amount of cross-bracing on the core columns though, even if these are just shear connected beams.
Daru
Says who??? With you it seems that the laws of physics themselves are impossible. Given the huge amout of other flammable papers that made it out of those buildings it is not only possible that the passport made it, it's not even that unlikely. Your credulity is not a measure of how seriously others should be taken, your error rate is much too high.
frater plecticus
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down(100% of the examples we have).
Do you really believe that ray guns from space or non-nuclear nukes or invisible ninja thermite fairies are more probable???
Grumpy
QUOTE
The passport story is simply impossible. People who still belive it can not be taken seriously.
Says who??? With you it seems that the laws of physics themselves are impossible. Given the huge amout of other flammable papers that made it out of those buildings it is not only possible that the passport made it, it's not even that unlikely. Your credulity is not a measure of how seriously others should be taken, your error rate is much too high.
frater plecticus
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down(100% of the examples we have).
Do you really believe that ray guns from space or non-nuclear nukes or invisible ninja thermite fairies are more probable???
Grumpy
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 20 2007, 09:20 PM)
No. The wave equation is the wave equation. In solid rock there are exactly four types of solutions, two body wave types (P & S) and two surface wave types (Love & Rayleigh). Rock cannot support surface waves like the ones in water.
Of course, one has to ask about the sensitivity of the seismograph at various frequencies, but the ones at LDEO are very good.
The "wave equation may be the wave equation", but what do solutions look like when the wave equation is applied to a medium (bedrock) which, you have told us, is elastically anisotropic? Have you solved such equations? If so, did you use perturbative methods?
Furthermore, if you assume some sort of random variation in the elasticity, would that not result in greater variability of wave frequencies as they pass through these anisotropic elastic gradients?
I have returned to reading "The Physics of Waves" on the subway, but still have not made much progress....
Of course, one has to ask about the sensitivity of the seismograph at various frequencies, but the ones at LDEO are very good.
The "wave equation may be the wave equation", but what do solutions look like when the wave equation is applied to a medium (bedrock) which, you have told us, is elastically anisotropic? Have you solved such equations? If so, did you use perturbative methods?
Furthermore, if you assume some sort of random variation in the elasticity, would that not result in greater variability of wave frequencies as they pass through these anisotropic elastic gradients?
I have returned to reading "The Physics of Waves" on the subway, but still have not made much progress....
Note after this "thing" hit... white and grey smoke!
But now its confirmed that there were explosions in wtc 7 (most people already knows, but now it is finaly confirmed)
9/11 Bombshell: WTC7 Security Official Details Explosions Inside Building
Says bombs were going off in 7 before either tower collpased
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/190607interview.htm
And OBL Chartered Saudi Flight Out of U.S. after 9/11
Judicial Watch Releases New FBI Documents: Osama bin Laden May Have Chartered Saudi Flight Out of U.S. after 9/11
www.judicialwatch.org/6322.shtml
But now its confirmed that there were explosions in wtc 7 (most people already knows, but now it is finaly confirmed)
9/11 Bombshell: WTC7 Security Official Details Explosions Inside Building
Says bombs were going off in 7 before either tower collpased
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/190607interview.htm
And OBL Chartered Saudi Flight Out of U.S. after 9/11
Judicial Watch Releases New FBI Documents: Osama bin Laden May Have Chartered Saudi Flight Out of U.S. after 9/11
www.judicialwatch.org/6322.shtml
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 20 2007, 10:54 PM)
The "wave equation may be the wave equation", but what do solutions look like when the wave equation is applied to a medium (bedrock) which, you have told us, is elastically anisotropic? Have you solved such equations? If so, did you use perturbative methods?
Furthermore, if you assume some sort of random variation in the elasticity, would that not result in greater variability of wave frequencies as they pass through these anisotropic elastic gradients?
(1) The Wikipedia pages on seismology will lead you to sites which have good graphics for the solutions. The Rayleigh wave motion is the most interesting. I, personally, have not worked with the wave equation as applied to bedrock. If I were going to, I'd probably just solve the initial value problem numerically.
(2) Yes, and seismologists need to know the different kinds of rock between the seismic source and the seismograph. But this doesn't change the fact that, with a good seismograph, essentially none of the elastic waves go undetected.
Edited to add: The details and timing of the four solutions vary with the material properties of each type of rock. These have been measured in laboratories and field geologists know reasonably well what rock types are where. So it's not so much 'random variation' as the rock type on which the seismograph rests that will determine the period, etc., of the sensed waves.
Furthermore, if you assume some sort of random variation in the elasticity, would that not result in greater variability of wave frequencies as they pass through these anisotropic elastic gradients?
(1) The Wikipedia pages on seismology will lead you to sites which have good graphics for the solutions. The Rayleigh wave motion is the most interesting. I, personally, have not worked with the wave equation as applied to bedrock. If I were going to, I'd probably just solve the initial value problem numerically.
(2) Yes, and seismologists need to know the different kinds of rock between the seismic source and the seismograph. But this doesn't change the fact that, with a good seismograph, essentially none of the elastic waves go undetected.
Edited to add: The details and timing of the four solutions vary with the material properties of each type of rock. These have been measured in laboratories and field geologists know reasonably well what rock types are where. So it's not so much 'random variation' as the rock type on which the seismograph rests that will determine the period, etc., of the sensed waves.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 20 2007, 10:51 PM)
frater plecticus
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down(100% of the examples we have).
Do you really believe that ray guns from space or non-nuclear nukes or invisible ninja thermite fairies are more probable???
Grumpy
Is belief that some aspects of the 9-11 official narrative are a little hard to believe mutually inclusive with belief in..
a)ray guns from space?
b)non-nuclear nukes ?
c)invisible ninja thermite fairies?
d)none of the above
I guess you're confusing me with somebody else.
(the correct answer is d)
frater plecticus
It's hard to tell any difference between you guys.
Daru
Do you believe everything you read??? A total lack of discrimination is not something to be proud of.
Grumpy
QUOTE
I guess you're confusing me with somebody else.
It's hard to tell any difference between you guys.
Daru
Do you believe everything you read??? A total lack of discrimination is not something to be proud of.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Daru+Jun 20 2007, 05:59 PM)
Note after this "thing" hit... white and grey smoke!
But now its confirmed that there were explosions in wtc 7 (most people already knows, but now it is finaly confirmed)
9/11 Bombshell: WTC7 Security Official Details Explosions Inside Building
Says bombs were going off in 7 before either tower collpased
You know what's MORE AMAZING.
These BOMBS didn't HURT ANYBODY.
Friggin Amazing.
Daru, every post you make shows how naive you are.
Arthur
But now its confirmed that there were explosions in wtc 7 (most people already knows, but now it is finaly confirmed)
9/11 Bombshell: WTC7 Security Official Details Explosions Inside Building
Says bombs were going off in 7 before either tower collpased
You know what's MORE AMAZING.
These BOMBS didn't HURT ANYBODY.
Friggin Amazing.
Daru, every post you make shows how naive you are.
Arthur
Read the article. Listen to the Mp3.
The truth is out!!
The truth is out!!
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 20 2007, 10:51 PM)
Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down(100% of the examples we have).
You mean like this one?

B25 into Empire State.
or this one?

C-130 into Iranian 10-storey apartment building
how about this one?

Plane Crashes into Milan Skyscraper
One more?

Cory Lidle High-Rise Plane Crash
So no, "Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down" not always so. You need to qualify this statement and get your facts straight.
You mean like this one?

B25 into Empire State.
or this one?

C-130 into Iranian 10-storey apartment building
how about this one?

Plane Crashes into Milan Skyscraper
One more?

Cory Lidle High-Rise Plane Crash
So no, "Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down" not always so. You need to qualify this statement and get your facts straight.
lozenge124
Alright
BIG plane(airliner) hit buildings while traveling FAST, buildings fall down.
Happy now?
B25=~15 tons(at most) and it was traveling ~100
C-130 hit ground and THEN building.
"The fuel tanks were almost full so there was a large blast on impact with the base of an apartment block in a compound housing airport staff in the Yaftabad district.
"I saw the aeroplane. There was smoke coming out of one engine. It went into the ground very fast, very close to the building," said 30-year-old Mohammad Rasooli, a local resident."
"A small plane slammed into the upper floors of a skyscraper in the centre of Milan, Italy"
Cory Lidle=small plane>100
Get a grip, will you.
Grumpy
Alright
BIG plane(airliner) hit buildings while traveling FAST, buildings fall down.
Happy now?
B25=~15 tons(at most) and it was traveling ~100
C-130 hit ground and THEN building.
"The fuel tanks were almost full so there was a large blast on impact with the base of an apartment block in a compound housing airport staff in the Yaftabad district.
"I saw the aeroplane. There was smoke coming out of one engine. It went into the ground very fast, very close to the building," said 30-year-old Mohammad Rasooli, a local resident."
"A small plane slammed into the upper floors of a skyscraper in the centre of Milan, Italy"
Cory Lidle=small plane>100
Get a grip, will you.
Grumpy
QUOTE (lozenge124+Jun 20 2007, 07:23 PM)
So no, "Planes hit buildings, buildings fall down" not always so. You need to qualify this statement and get your facts straight.
What are you, 15?
What a WASTE of bandwidth.
Arthur
What are you, 15?
What a WASTE of bandwidth.
Arthur
After a little web trawling, the seismic moment is the estimate of the total energy of an earthquake. For example, the earthquake which caused the great tsunami in the Indian Ocean is estimated to have had a moment of 1--3 exajoules.
QUOTE (FactCheck+Jun 20 2007, 09:28 PM)
Has any conspiracy theorist written something on:
How much explosives [ = X ] were used [where] to create the seismic data they claim is explosives?
Why would they use [X] in [that] location of the towers to cause the seismic readings? Why was it a needed part of the conspiracy story? Assuming they are smart enough to pull this off, what was the reason they had to risk this part of the conspiracy story? Because any placement of explosives is a risk. It sounds to me this part of the conspiracy story would be a HUGE risk.
I'm looking for quantitative expressions and values.
*Crickets*
How much explosives [ = X ] were used [where] to create the seismic data they claim is explosives?
Why would they use [X] in [that] location of the towers to cause the seismic readings? Why was it a needed part of the conspiracy story? Assuming they are smart enough to pull this off, what was the reason they had to risk this part of the conspiracy story? Because any placement of explosives is a risk. It sounds to me this part of the conspiracy story would be a HUGE risk.
I'm looking for quantitative expressions and values.
*Crickets*
QUOTE (FactCheck+Jun 21 2007, 01:49 AM)
*Crickets*
Maybe locusts, too?
Maybe locusts, too?
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 21 2007, 12:39 AM)
lozenge124
Alright
BIG plane(airliner) hit buildings while traveling FAST, buildings fall down.
The airplane is one half of the equation, yes? The other one is of course the building.
Apart from the Empire State Building, the other buildings are much smaller than the WTC towers. We also know that the Twin Towers were designed with airplane crashes in mind (unlike the others, I would assume) due to the prominence of their location and their height.
So smaller,slower planes & smaller buildings not designed for airplane crashes - the 2 "smallers" cancel out? It's noteworthy that none of the buildings collapsed I think.
In any case, post the same nonsense over and over and at some point someone is going to call you out on it!
Alright
BIG plane(airliner) hit buildings while traveling FAST, buildings fall down.
The airplane is one half of the equation, yes? The other one is of course the building.
Apart from the Empire State Building, the other buildings are much smaller than the WTC towers. We also know that the Twin Towers were designed with airplane crashes in mind (unlike the others, I would assume) due to the prominence of their location and their height.
So smaller,slower planes & smaller buildings not designed for airplane crashes - the 2 "smallers" cancel out? It's noteworthy that none of the buildings collapsed I think.
In any case, post the same nonsense over and over and at some point someone is going to call you out on it!
Metamars -
The total energy that could be coupled to the ground would be limited by two factors:
The energy capable of being coupled through the intact part of the structure would be limited by the maximum structural capacity of the remaining structure, which was about twice the static load (DBB to correct me on this).
The fraction of that energy that would be coupled to bedrock would be limited by the ratio of the acoustic impedance of the structure to that of the basement, and again reduced by the same impedance mismatch between the basement and the "bathtub".
When shock waves/acoustic energy travels through a medium and encounters an impedance mismatch, the energy reflected at the mismatch is the difference between the two impedances divided by the sum of the two impedances. The rest is transmitted through the mismatch. (I think I said that right.) So if the mismatch is 1:4, then 3/5ths of the energy gets reflected and 2/5ths gets transmitted.
If you can figure a way to calculate the acoustic impedances of the tower section, the basement section, and the "bathtub", then you should be able to calculate the total energy transmitted into the ground. What it does from there is seismology.
The total energy that could be coupled to the ground would be limited by two factors:
The energy capable of being coupled through the intact part of the structure would be limited by the maximum structural capacity of the remaining structure, which was about twice the static load (DBB to correct me on this).
The fraction of that energy that would be coupled to bedrock would be limited by the ratio of the acoustic impedance of the structure to that of the basement, and again reduced by the same impedance mismatch between the basement and the "bathtub".
When shock waves/acoustic energy travels through a medium and encounters an impedance mismatch, the energy reflected at the mismatch is the difference between the two impedances divided by the sum of the two impedances. The rest is transmitted through the mismatch. (I think I said that right.) So if the mismatch is 1:4, then 3/5ths of the energy gets reflected and 2/5ths gets transmitted.
If you can figure a way to calculate the acoustic impedances of the tower section, the basement section, and the "bathtub", then you should be able to calculate the total energy transmitted into the ground. What it does from there is seismology.
lozenge124
Talk about getting your facts straight.
We do??? Sure, that was claimed by several people AFTER an article about the B-25 hitting the Empire State Building called the safety of such tall buildings into question. But that was long after the design had been finalized. NIST found a ONE PAGE MEMO that mentioned a 707, lost in fog looking for an airport(fuel was not mentioned). Otherwise, NADA. No calculations, no evaluations, nothing to indicate that the engineers even considered it. That building was NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind. No building is(with the exception of Nuclear containment buildings at powerplants) and they will not be designed that way now or ever. That building was designed to provide the most floor space for the least cost+a safety factor of about 1.6.
And size is only one factor in the energy of an impact(though the instances you mentioned are like a Chihuahua compared to a Great Dane), velocity is by far the more important factor, with a 125 ton aircraft having 25 times the energy at 500 mph compared to the same plane at 100(Square of the velocity, remember?). Small and small ARE NOT EQUIVALENT unless you accelerate that small to 500 mph. So no, your examples are just strawmen.
So if a 125 ton airplane full of fuel hit an all steel building at 500mph, you can expect that building to fall down.
Grumpy
Talk about getting your facts straight.
QUOTE
We also know that the Twin Towers were designed with airplane crashes in mind (unlike the others, I would assume) due to the prominence of their location and their height.
We do??? Sure, that was claimed by several people AFTER an article about the B-25 hitting the Empire State Building called the safety of such tall buildings into question. But that was long after the design had been finalized. NIST found a ONE PAGE MEMO that mentioned a 707, lost in fog looking for an airport(fuel was not mentioned). Otherwise, NADA. No calculations, no evaluations, nothing to indicate that the engineers even considered it. That building was NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind. No building is(with the exception of Nuclear containment buildings at powerplants) and they will not be designed that way now or ever. That building was designed to provide the most floor space for the least cost+a safety factor of about 1.6.
And size is only one factor in the energy of an impact(though the instances you mentioned are like a Chihuahua compared to a Great Dane), velocity is by far the more important factor, with a 125 ton aircraft having 25 times the energy at 500 mph compared to the same plane at 100(Square of the velocity, remember?). Small and small ARE NOT EQUIVALENT unless you accelerate that small to 500 mph. So no, your examples are just strawmen.
So if a 125 ton airplane full of fuel hit an all steel building at 500mph, you can expect that building to fall down.
Grumpy
QUOTE
I'm looking for quantitative expressions and values.
*Crickets*
*Crickets*
There are good reasons why the CDiots don't answer your question.
First, any number they pick will be easily disproved by the evidence available. (The correct answer is zero.) Most of them know this. If they choose an amount that's even a sizable fraction of the energy of the airplane's collision, then they end up with astronomical quantities of explosives. It's a common misconception that explosives have high energy-densities - they don't. Jelly donuts have ~5x as much energy per pound as C4, C4 just releases that energy in a big hurry so it's localized in time and space. So they can't say that the explosives are measured in tons without straining the credulity of the audience.
OTOH, if they assert that the explosives were a small amount, due to the main contribution to the failure of the structure being the aircraft impact + fire damage, with the explosives being the difference, then they have to acknowledge that the collapse could've happened without *any* explosives. (As is the case.)
They're in the same quandary about the type and placement and timing of the explosives, too. If they say it was thermite on the core, then they have to admit that the "witnesses" claiming they heard explosions throughout the building long before the collapse were simply mistaken, as thermite doesn't go "BANG!". Since they cite those witnesses as proof-positive that it was a CD, they won't settle on thermite.
If they say it was some sort of HE, like C4, then they can cite the "witnesses" who heard BANG!s before the towers dropped, but that raises a huge problem - these BANG!s came *WAY* before the buildings dropped. HE/CDs don't work that way. Also, why, if it was *CONTROLLED*, would the blasts be so randomly distributed so far from the collapse-zone? Why put explosives on the 30th floor when the planes hit ~1000feet higher? Are these conspirators idiots? Wouldn't you think that if they're smart enough to conquer and run the world, that they'd have planted the charges on the floors that were in the target zone?
I've also made this point several times about the bomb-sniffing dogs among the 300 S&R dogs volunteered for the recovery effort, but explosives have a distinctive odor, and it's kinda hard to picture the NWO getting the dogs to cooperate with the cover-up. In addition, there are plenty of ordinary citizens who know what explosives smell like, including former military, cops, firemen, and construction workers, lots of them at the scene, none smelled explosives.
So the answer to your question is that they have no working hypothesis, only vague accusations of conspiracy and cover-up (plus a healthy dose of wacko paranoid delusions about alien reptiles running the world), and they can't come up with any specific hypothesis because it isn't in their vested interests, "truth" not even making it to the list. They aren't interested in any truth, they're only interested in spreading disinformation to support their anti-American political agenda.

El Al, Rotterdam, 1992
QUOTE (lozenge124+Jun 20 2007, 04:50 PM)
Yes it did, a little while back.
It's interesting to see the amount of cross-bracing on the core columns though, even if these are just shear connected beams.
That does not qualify as "cross bracing." cross bracing is a diagonal or a solid masonry infil that prevents racking movement. With a few exeptions, there was no cross bracing in the core. The lateral strength was provided by the sandrels.
It's interesting to see the amount of cross-bracing on the core columns though, even if these are just shear connected beams.
That does not qualify as "cross bracing." cross bracing is a diagonal or a solid masonry infil that prevents racking movement. With a few exeptions, there was no cross bracing in the core. The lateral strength was provided by the sandrels.
I just posted this in another forum. I thought it might be relevant here. I am unaware if something similar to my suggestion in the last paragraph has been made already here or elsewhere.
"The upper blocks began rotating as rigid bodies before they got fully disconnected from the lower structure and and fell. <Name removed> argues that since their kinetic energy was rotational then they were harmless to the lower structure. This is a fallacy, of course. Kinetic energy, whether translational or rotational, isn't a vector. It's a scalar magnitude. The rotational kinetic energy of the upper block just it the summation of the kinetic energies of all its components as measured in the co-moving reference frame of its center of mass. This consideration has no bearing on the fact that the momentum of the upper block is mainly directed downward after the block has rotated some small angle.
Bazant and Zhou have shown that the reaction at the base of the upper blocks from the increase in angular momentum caused by gravity resulted in shear forces that were several times greater than the shear resistances of all 287 columns. The upper block could thus not have rotated much before getting disconnected and falling straight down. This is indeed what the videos show.
We could expect that the falling upper blocks would maintain their angular momenta while they were falling. Steven Jones has puzzled over the fact that this seemed not to be the case (for WTC1, if I remember) Yet there is an explanation for this. The equation of motion of the upper block exhibits the inertial resistance of the lower floors to be much more significant than the structural resistance (columns buckling, truss disconnection, air resistance, etc.) in opposing the downward acceleration of the upper block. This resistance term is labeled F_m in the recent Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson paper. This resistance is proportional to velocity squared. Since the lower side of the rotating block moves faster than the higher side, it is thus subjected to a significantly greater force. This force differential reduces its angular momentum. Things might be messier than I have suggested, but so far there is no ground anymore for puzzlement."
"The upper blocks began rotating as rigid bodies before they got fully disconnected from the lower structure and and fell. <Name removed> argues that since their kinetic energy was rotational then they were harmless to the lower structure. This is a fallacy, of course. Kinetic energy, whether translational or rotational, isn't a vector. It's a scalar magnitude. The rotational kinetic energy of the upper block just it the summation of the kinetic energies of all its components as measured in the co-moving reference frame of its center of mass. This consideration has no bearing on the fact that the momentum of the upper block is mainly directed downward after the block has rotated some small angle.
Bazant and Zhou have shown that the reaction at the base of the upper blocks from the increase in angular momentum caused by gravity resulted in shear forces that were several times greater than the shear resistances of all 287 columns. The upper block could thus not have rotated much before getting disconnected and falling straight down. This is indeed what the videos show.
We could expect that the falling upper blocks would maintain their angular momenta while they were falling. Steven Jones has puzzled over the fact that this seemed not to be the case (for WTC1, if I remember) Yet there is an explanation for this. The equation of motion of the upper block exhibits the inertial resistance of the lower floors to be much more significant than the structural resistance (columns buckling, truss disconnection, air resistance, etc.) in opposing the downward acceleration of the upper block. This resistance term is labeled F_m in the recent Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson paper. This resistance is proportional to velocity squared. Since the lower side of the rotating block moves faster than the higher side, it is thus subjected to a significantly greater force. This force differential reduces its angular momentum. Things might be messier than I have suggested, but so far there is no ground anymore for puzzlement."
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 21 2007, 02:31 AM)
lozenge124
Talk about getting your facts straight.
We do??? Sure, that was claimed by several people AFTER an article about the B-25 hitting the Empire State Building called the safety of such tall buildings into question. But that was long after the design had been finalized.
Talk about getting your facts straight.
We do??? Sure, that was claimed by several people AFTER an article about the B-25 hitting the Empire State Building called the safety of such tall buildings into question. But that was long after the design had been finalized.
QUOTE
"We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer. "However, back in those days people didn't think about terrorists very much."
Skilling, based in Seattle, is among the world's top structural engineers. He is responsible for much of Seattle's downtown skyline and for several of the world's tallest structures, including the Trade Center.
Concerned because of a case where an airplane hit the Empire State Building, Skilling's people did an analysis that showed the towers would withstand the impact of a Boeing 707.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/anal...thstandjet.htmlSkilling, based in Seattle, is among the world's top structural engineers. He is responsible for much of Seattle's downtown skyline and for several of the world's tallest structures, including the Trade Center.
Concerned because of a case where an airplane hit the Empire State Building, Skilling's people did an analysis that showed the towers would withstand the impact of a Boeing 707.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer. "However, back in those days people didn't think about terrorists very much." Skilling, based in Seattle, is among the world's top structural engineers. He is responsible for much of Seattle's downtown skyline and for several of the world's tallest structures, including the Trade Center. Concerned because of a case where an airplane hit the Empire State Building, Skilling's people did an analysis that showed the towers would withstand the impact of a Boeing 707. |
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/anal...thstandjet.html
Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it." "Fire melts steel," Burns told the Tribune, speculating that the impact from the planes had damaged sprinkler systems in both towers.
Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it." "Fire melts steel," Burns told the Tribune, speculating that the impact from the planes had damaged sprinkler systems in both towers.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/anal...apseshocks.html
QUOTE
JERUSALEM (September 12) - Aaron Swirsky, one of the architects of the World Trade Center, yesterday expressed disbelief on hearing of the collapse of the twin towers. Swirsky told JPostRadio the buildings had been designed with "accidents" in mind.
"The terrorism was different in those days, but there was always the possibility of an accident with a plane hitting the building. The building was designed like a pipe structurally, with the main structure in the perimeter of the building." This meant that a hole in the building would not collapse the whole structure. The fact that the buildings did collapse he described as "incredible."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/520856/posts"The terrorism was different in those days, but there was always the possibility of an accident with a plane hitting the building. The building was designed like a pipe structurally, with the main structure in the perimeter of the building." This meant that a hole in the building would not collapse the whole structure. The fact that the buildings did collapse he described as "incredible."
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| JERUSALEM (September 12) - Aaron Swirsky, one of the architects of the World Trade Center, yesterday expressed disbelief on hearing of the collapse of the twin towers. Swirsky told JPostRadio the buildings had been designed with "accidents" in mind. "The terrorism was different in those days, but there was always the possibility of an accident with a plane hitting the building. The building was designed like a pipe structurally, with the main structure in the perimeter of the building." This meant that a hole in the building would not collapse the whole structure. The fact that the buildings did collapse he described as "incredible." |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/520856/posts
"The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it, that was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building could probably sustain multiple impacts of jet liners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door - this intense grid - and the plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting." (Frank DeMartini)
"The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it, that was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building could probably sustain multiple impacts of jet liners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door - this intense grid - and the plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting." (Frank DeMartini)
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 20 2007, 06:31 PM)
lozenge124
Talk about getting your facts straight.
We do??? Sure, that was claimed by several people AFTER an article about the B-25 hitting the Empire State Building called the safety of such tall buildings into question. But that was long after the design had been finalized. NIST found a ONE PAGE MEMO that mentioned a 707, lost in fog looking for an airport(fuel was not mentioned). Otherwise, NADA. No calculations, no evaluations, nothing to indicate that the engineers even considered it. That building was NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind. No building is(with the exception of Nuclear containment buildings at powerplants) and they will not be designed that way now or ever. That building was designed to provide the most floor space for the least cost+a safety factor of about 1.6.
And size is only one factor in the energy of an impact(though the instances you mentioned are like a Chihuahua compared to a Great Dane), velocity is by far the more important factor, with a 125 ton aircraft having 25 times the energy at 500 mph compared to the same plane at 100(Square of the velocity, remember?). Small and small ARE NOT EQUIVALENT unless you accelerate that small to 500 mph. So no, your examples are just strawmen.
So if a 125 ton airplane full of fuel hit an all steel building at 500mph, you can expect that building to fall down.
Grumpy
More BS from the Grumpster:
What John Skilling said (one of the two structural engineers responsible for designing the Trade Center):
February 27, 1993: WTC Engineer Says Building Would Survive Jumbo Jet Hitting It In the wake of the WTC bombing, the Seattle Times interviews John Skilling who was one of the two structural engineers responsible for designing the Trade Center. Skilling recounts his people having carried out an analysis which found the twin towers could withstand the impact of a Boeing 707. He says, “Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed.” But, he says, “The building structure would still be there.” [Seattle Times, 2/27/1993] The analysis Skilling is referring to is likely one done in early 1964, during the design phase of the towers. A three-page white paper, dated February 3, 1964, described its findings: “The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707—DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.” However, besides this paper, no documents are known detailing how this analysis was made. [Glanz and Lipton, 2004, pp. 131-132; Lew, Bukowski, and Carino, 10/2005, pp. 70-71] The other structural engineer who designed the towers, Leslie Robertson, carried out a second study later in 1964, of how the towers would handle the impact of a 707 (see Between September 3, 2001 and September 7, 2001). However, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), following its three-year investigation into the WTC collapses, will in 2005 state that it has been “unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.” [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 13 ]
Entity Tags: John Skilling, World Trade Center
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timelin...tcinvestigation
Talk about getting your facts straight.
We do??? Sure, that was claimed by several people AFTER an article about the B-25 hitting the Empire State Building called the safety of such tall buildings into question. But that was long after the design had been finalized. NIST found a ONE PAGE MEMO that mentioned a 707, lost in fog looking for an airport(fuel was not mentioned). Otherwise, NADA. No calculations, no evaluations, nothing to indicate that the engineers even considered it. That building was NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind. No building is(with the exception of Nuclear containment buildings at powerplants) and they will not be designed that way now or ever. That building was designed to provide the most floor space for the least cost+a safety factor of about 1.6.
And size is only one factor in the energy of an impact(though the instances you mentioned are like a Chihuahua compared to a Great Dane), velocity is by far the more important factor, with a 125 ton aircraft having 25 times the energy at 500 mph compared to the same plane at 100(Square of the velocity, remember?). Small and small ARE NOT EQUIVALENT unless you accelerate that small to 500 mph. So no, your examples are just strawmen.
So if a 125 ton airplane full of fuel hit an all steel building at 500mph, you can expect that building to fall down.
Grumpy
More BS from the Grumpster:
What John Skilling said (one of the two structural engineers responsible for designing the Trade Center):
QUOTE
February 27, 1993: WTC Engineer Says Building Would Survive Jumbo Jet Hitting It In the wake of the WTC bombing, the Seattle Times interviews John Skilling who was one of the two structural engineers responsible for designing the Trade Center. Skilling recounts his people having carried out an analysis which found the twin towers could withstand the impact of a Boeing 707. He says, “Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed.” But, he says, “The building structure would still be there.” [Seattle Times, 2/27/1993] The analysis Skilling is referring to is likely one done in early 1964, during the design phase of the towers. A three-page white paper, dated February 3, 1964, described its findings: “The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707—DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.” However, besides this paper, no documents are known detailing how this analysis was made. [Glanz and Lipton, 2004, pp. 131-132; Lew, Bukowski, and Carino, 10/2005, pp. 70-71] The other structural engineer who designed the towers, Leslie Robertson, carried out a second study later in 1964, of how the towers would handle the impact of a 707 (see Between September 3, 2001 and September 7, 2001). However, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), following its three-year investigation into the WTC collapses, will in 2005 state that it has been “unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.” [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 13 ]
Entity Tags: John Skilling, World Trade Center
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timelin...tcinvestigation
QUOTE (lozenge124+Jun 21 2007, 02:51 AM)
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/anal...thstandjet.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/anal...apseshocks.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/520856/posts
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc1_core.html
etc, etc, etc...
Straw man, the NIST never said the building fell because of the impact alone anyway.
How many of those other buildings had a tube in a tube design with spray on fireproofing. How many were hit at around 500 MPH.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/anal...apseshocks.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/520856/posts
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc1_core.html
etc, etc, etc...
Straw man, the NIST never said the building fell because of the impact alone anyway.
How many of those other buildings had a tube in a tube design with spray on fireproofing. How many were hit at around 500 MPH.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 21 2007, 01:35 AM)
After a little web trawling, the seismic moment is the estimate of the total energy of an earthquake. For example, the earthquake which caused the great tsunami in the Indian Ocean is estimated to have had a moment of 1--3 exajoules.
That, for the uninitiated, is equivalent to 1*10^36 -- 3*10^36 attojoules.
That, for the uninitiated, is equivalent to 1*10^36 -- 3*10^36 attojoules.
QUOTE (FactCheck+Jun 21 2007, 02:56 AM)
Straw man, the NIST never said the building fell because of the impact alone anyway.
How many of those other buildings had a tube in a tube design with spray on fireproofing. How many were hit at around 500 MPH.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Straw man for what? I am backing up the claim I made earlier that "the Twin Towers were designed with airplane crashes in mind".
Round and round we go....
How many of those other buildings had a tube in a tube design with spray on fireproofing. How many were hit at around 500 MPH.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Straw man for what? I am backing up the claim I made earlier that "the Twin Towers were designed with airplane crashes in mind".
Round and round we go....
lozenge124 and reasonless
What John Skilling said...
Like I(and NIST) pointed out, several people have SAID they considered a plane impact, the trouble is that no such evaluation or even the least bit of calculation can be documented. A one page memo does not a design evaluation make. It is NOT true that those towers were designed to withstand a high speed impact by a large plane no matter how much CYA is going on. What part of “unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.” are you having trouble understanding???
Grumpy
You do know that if the engineers had any evidence they HAD considered an impact, that during the investigation would be a good time to produce that evidence, don't you. Yet not even the claimed "White paper" was produced!!! Interesting, hmmm???
QUOTE
etc, etc, etc...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| etc, etc, etc... |
What John Skilling said...
Like I(and NIST) pointed out, several people have SAID they considered a plane impact, the trouble is that no such evaluation or even the least bit of calculation can be documented. A one page memo does not a design evaluation make. It is NOT true that those towers were designed to withstand a high speed impact by a large plane no matter how much CYA is going on. What part of “unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.” are you having trouble understanding???
Grumpy
You do know that if the engineers had any evidence they HAD considered an impact, that during the investigation would be a good time to produce that evidence, don't you. Yet not even the claimed "White paper" was produced!!! Interesting, hmmm???
lozenge124
No, any court of law would tell you that all you have documented is that several people have CLAIMED those building were designed with impacts in mind(CYA anyone???), the proof that they WERE designed that way would be in the so far non-existent calculations and evaluations of the structural and fire damage. As a teacher, I never accepted the "Dog ate my homework" excuse, I don't buy it here either.
Again, no building is(or could be) designed to withstand such an attack, they would be too expensive and their added weight would preclude them from being built to such heights. Those towers were an OPTOMIZED design, leaving precious little excess strength. That is perfectly alright under normal conditions, but plane proof buildings DO NOT EXIST.
Grumpy
QUOTE
Straw man for what? I am backing up the claim I made earlier that "the Twin Towers were designed with airplane crashes in mind".
No, any court of law would tell you that all you have documented is that several people have CLAIMED those building were designed with impacts in mind(CYA anyone???), the proof that they WERE designed that way would be in the so far non-existent calculations and evaluations of the structural and fire damage. As a teacher, I never accepted the "Dog ate my homework" excuse, I don't buy it here either.
Again, no building is(or could be) designed to withstand such an attack, they would be too expensive and their added weight would preclude them from being built to such heights. Those towers were an OPTOMIZED design, leaving precious little excess strength. That is perfectly alright under normal conditions, but plane proof buildings DO NOT EXIST.
Grumpy
Worse for the concept that they were "designed with airplane crashes in mind" would be the designers use of ONLY SFRM as an insulation given its known low adhesive strength, the use of ONLY DRYWALL to provide the required fire protection for the exit stairway walls and finally the use of ONLY THREE relatively closely located stairways.
These latter two were probably what doomed several thousand that day.
Its quite clear that any ACTUAL analysis of an airplane crash, even at low speeds, would have shown that these were MAJOR RISKS to the safety of the occupants.
Thus there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that a plane impact was considered as a CRITERIA for the safe design of the buildings.
Arthur
These latter two were probably what doomed several thousand that day.
Its quite clear that any ACTUAL analysis of an airplane crash, even at low speeds, would have shown that these were MAJOR RISKS to the safety of the occupants.
Thus there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that a plane impact was considered as a CRITERIA for the safe design of the buildings.
Arthur
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 20 2007, 07:16 PM)
lozenge124 and reasonless
Like I(and NIST) pointed out, several people have SAID they considered a plane impact, the trouble is that no such evaluation or even the least bit of calculation can be documented. A one page memo does not a design evaluation make. It is NOT true that those towers were designed to withstand a high speed impact by a large plane no matter how much CYA is going on. What part of “unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.” are you having trouble understanding???
Grumpy
You do know that if the engineers had any evidence they HAD considered an impact, that during the investigation would be a good time to produce that evidence, don't you. Yet not even the claimed "White paper" was produced!!! Interesting, hmmm???
So, now you are calling John Skilling a lier?
AND what possibly would be the motive BEFORE the WTC attack in 2/27/1993?
Like I(and NIST) pointed out, several people have SAID they considered a plane impact, the trouble is that no such evaluation or even the least bit of calculation can be documented. A one page memo does not a design evaluation make. It is NOT true that those towers were designed to withstand a high speed impact by a large plane no matter how much CYA is going on. What part of “unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.” are you having trouble understanding???
Grumpy
You do know that if the engineers had any evidence they HAD considered an impact, that during the investigation would be a good time to produce that evidence, don't you. Yet not even the claimed "White paper" was produced!!! Interesting, hmmm???
So, now you are calling John Skilling a lier?
AND what possibly would be the motive BEFORE the WTC attack in 2/27/1993?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 21 2007, 02:53 AM)
....
....
What John Skilling said (one of the two structural engineers responsible for designing the Trade Center):
....
What John Skilling said (one of the two structural engineers responsible for designing the Trade Center):
QUOTE (John Skilling+)
February 27, 1993: WTC Engineer Says Building Would Survive Jumbo Jet Hitting It In the wake of the WTC bombing, the Seattle Times interviews responsible for designing the Trade Center. Skilling recounts his people having carried out an analysis which found the twin towers could withstand the impact of a Boeing 707. He says, “Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed.” But, he says, “The building structure would still be there.” [Seattle Times, 2/27/1993]
Hi Reasonwhy! Was just about to sign off for the day when I saw your post...and have just enough pain tolerance left behind the eyeballs to briefly comment/question as follows.....
Given the "horrendous fire" that WAS anticipated even THEN (desp[ite the claims by CD/CTers that they were 'piddling/cool' fires and not 'horrendous as Skilling foresaw), how long would the structure "BE THERE" after the impact AND "horrendous fire"? Obviously Skilling meant that it would Sstill be there IMMEDIATELY after the impact and burning fuel deluge WITHIN.....but he NEVER considers/mentions how long it would stand GIVEN THE LOSS OF ALL FIREFIGHTING/FIREPROOFING/FIRERETARDANT capacities/capabilities AS WELL....which would make the horrendous fire of his imagination EVEN MORE HORRENDOUS.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
Hi Reasonwhy! Was just about to sign off for the day when I saw your post...and have just enough pain tolerance left behind the eyeballs to briefly comment/question as follows.....
Given the "horrendous fire" that WAS anticipated even THEN (desp[ite the claims by CD/CTers that they were 'piddling/cool' fires and not 'horrendous as Skilling foresaw), how long would the structure "BE THERE" after the impact AND "horrendous fire"? Obviously Skilling meant that it would Sstill be there IMMEDIATELY after the impact and burning fuel deluge WITHIN.....but he NEVER considers/mentions how long it would stand GIVEN THE LOSS OF ALL FIREFIGHTING/FIREPROOFING/FIRERETARDANT capacities/capabilities AS WELL....which would make the horrendous fire of his imagination EVEN MORE HORRENDOUS.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
Oh, and I forgot to add (this damned headache!) that Skilling probably would have considered the STATIC strength of the tube-in-tube, and the assumption that the plane would only damage the OUTER 'TUBE' and NOT the INNER 'TUBE' (because if the that had been damaged all his assurances would have been simple WISHING for the best and not allowing for the worst...in the form of UNCONTROLLED super-horrific fire and inner/outer 'tube' load-juggling that could not be sustained forever as more of the structure succumbed to HIS PROPHESIED 'horrific fire' (only more so!). Skilling et al NEVER mentioned how EASILY (in the event!) the floor-connection system could be so EFFECTIVELY DYNAMICALLY SEPARATED (some in in series and some in parallel, depending on actual location/impacts/fire variables). Doing so would be an admission that the so-called ASSESSMENT was not worth the paper and pencil used, simply because the overall LONGER TERM structural ability to withstand such an impact and fire and subsequent physical/geometric MOVEMENTS for an hour after during UNCONTROLLED fire/cooling processes) (in fire/shifting-load circumstances) ALSO DEPENDED on the LATERAL SUPPORT of the floors THROUGH THOSE SAME CONNECTORS...hence the vulnerability to global collapse after damage from his foreseen uncontrolled horrendous fire.
And it seems a double-standard for CDers/CTers to blithely and readily accuse NIST et al of conspiracy, when at the same time these CDers/CTers do not even consider the possible motives for a 'conspiracy' of sorts AT THE TIME OF THE PROJECT...when reputations, money, jobs, face=saving and future commisiions/constructions were at stake...from the Port Authority, to designers, engineers, middlemen, etc AT THE TIME.
So perhaps the 'conspiracy' was THEN, not NOW, hmmm?
Ouch....gotta go, NOW!
PS:
Thanks and Hi to you, Grumpy! Missed y'all!
RC.
.

El Al, Rotterdam, 1992
Yes the Bijlmer Crash, a friend of me saw that plane crashing.
It was due to metal fatigue in one of the pins of the engines and due to bad luck the engine that fell collapsed onto the other engine and that one was also gone.
Hi Reasonwhy! Was just about to sign off for the day when I saw your post...and have just enough pain tolerance left behind the eyeballs to briefly comment/question as follows.....
Given the "horrendous fire" that WAS anticipated even THEN (desp[ite the claims by CD/CTers that they were 'piddling/cool' fires and not 'horrendous as Skilling foresaw), how long would the structure "BE THERE" after the impact AND "horrendous fire"? Obviously Skilling meant that it would Sstill be there IMMEDIATELY after the impact and burning fuel deluge WITHIN.....but he NEVER considers/mentions how long it would stand GIVEN THE LOSS OF ALL FIREFIGHTING/FIREPROOFING/FIRERETARDANT capacities/capabilities AS WELL....which would make the horrendous fire of his imagination EVEN MORE HORRENDOUS.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
reasonless
The FACTS indicate he was...less than truthful(optimistic, one might say). The whole thing was started by a NYT article(allegedly instigated by a rival engineering firm) that rehashed the B-25 incident at The Empire State Building and questioned the safety of such high buildings. In response, Skilling and others started a campaign to assure the people of NY that their buildings were safe and could withstand an impact. The problem is that it was never a consideration in the design phase, nor is there any evidence that any calculation or evaluation was done(other than the CLAIMS). That puts it into the same class as the claims that the Titannic was unsinkable and therefore didn't need more than 16 lifeboats(enough for less than half the passengers). The FACT is, there was no major concerns about a terrorist flying a plane into those buildings(mid sixties) and their thoughts were of a 707 traveling~150(no matter what a reporter exagerated) in landing configuration and the fuel was not considered at all. Skilling may actually have BELIEVED those towers would withstand this, but no attempt to calculate or evaluate was made and he had no documentation to back up that belief.
Who knows, maybe they would have stood up to a 767 at 150, but that is not what happened, is it??? At 500 mph there was 10 times the energy and a full load of fuel started large fires that sealed the fate of those towers. It really is that simple.
Grumpy
QUOTE
So, now you are calling John Skilling a lier?
AND what possibly would be the motive BEFORE the WTC attack in 2/27/1993?
AND what possibly would be the motive BEFORE the WTC attack in 2/27/1993?
The FACTS indicate he was...less than truthful(optimistic, one might say). The whole thing was started by a NYT article(allegedly instigated by a rival engineering firm) that rehashed the B-25 incident at The Empire State Building and questioned the safety of such high buildings. In response, Skilling and others started a campaign to assure the people of NY that their buildings were safe and could withstand an impact. The problem is that it was never a consideration in the design phase, nor is there any evidence that any calculation or evaluation was done(other than the CLAIMS). That puts it into the same class as the claims that the Titannic was unsinkable and therefore didn't need more than 16 lifeboats(enough for less than half the passengers). The FACT is, there was no major concerns about a terrorist flying a plane into those buildings(mid sixties) and their thoughts were of a 707 traveling~150(no matter what a reporter exagerated) in landing configuration and the fuel was not considered at all. Skilling may actually have BELIEVED those towers would withstand this, but no attempt to calculate or evaluate was made and he had no documentation to back up that belief.
Who knows, maybe they would have stood up to a 767 at 150, but that is not what happened, is it??? At 500 mph there was 10 times the energy and a full load of fuel started large fires that sealed the fate of those towers. It really is that simple.
Grumpy
RealityCheck
Glad to see you're back. Get well soon, we miss your input!!!
Grumpy
Glad to see you're back. Get well soon, we miss your input!!!
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 20 2007, 08:16 PM)
reasonless
The FACTS indicate he was...less than truthful(optimistic, one might say). The whole thing was started by a NYT article(allegedly instigated by a rival engineering firm) that rehashed the B-25 incident at The Empire State Building and questioned the safety of such high buildings. In response, Skilling and others started a campaign to assure the people of NY that their buildings were safe and could withstand an impact. The problem is that it was never a consideration in the design phase, nor is there any evidence that any calculation or evaluation was done(other than the CLAIMS). That puts it into the same class as the claims that the Titannic was unsinkable and therefore didn't need more than 16 lifeboats(enough for less than half the passengers). The FACT is, there was no major concerns about a terrorist flying a plane into those buildings(mid sixties) and their thoughts were of a 707 traveling~150(no matter what a reporter exagerated) in landing configuration and the fuel was not considered at all. Skilling may actually have BELIEVED those towers would withstand this, but no attempt to calculate or evaluate was made and he had no documentation to back up that belief.
Who knows, maybe they would have stood up to a 767 at 150, but that is not what happened, is it??? At 500 mph there was 10 times the energy and a full load of fuel started large fires that sealed the fate of those towers. It really is that simple.
Grumpy
WOW!
What a conspiracy you uncovered. All the Architects, engineers and newspapers were in on it up the Skilling. How many thousands of people?
I will stick with the expert on this (Skilling).
The FACTS indicate he was...less than truthful(optimistic, one might say). The whole thing was started by a NYT article(allegedly instigated by a rival engineering firm) that rehashed the B-25 incident at The Empire State Building and questioned the safety of such high buildings. In response, Skilling and others started a campaign to assure the people of NY that their buildings were safe and could withstand an impact. The problem is that it was never a consideration in the design phase, nor is there any evidence that any calculation or evaluation was done(other than the CLAIMS). That puts it into the same class as the claims that the Titannic was unsinkable and therefore didn't need more than 16 lifeboats(enough for less than half the passengers). The FACT is, there was no major concerns about a terrorist flying a plane into those buildings(mid sixties) and their thoughts were of a 707 traveling~150(no matter what a reporter exagerated) in landing configuration and the fuel was not considered at all. Skilling may actually have BELIEVED those towers would withstand this, but no attempt to calculate or evaluate was made and he had no documentation to back up that belief.
Who knows, maybe they would have stood up to a 767 at 150, but that is not what happened, is it??? At 500 mph there was 10 times the energy and a full load of fuel started large fires that sealed the fate of those towers. It really is that simple.
Grumpy
WOW!
What a conspiracy you uncovered. All the Architects, engineers and newspapers were in on it up the Skilling. How many thousands of people?
I will stick with the expert on this (Skilling).
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 21 2007, 01:35 AM)
After a little web trawling, the seismic moment is the estimate of the total energy of an earthquake. For example, the earthquake which caused the great tsunami in the Indian Ocean is estimated to have had a moment of 1--3 exajoules.
Also equivalent to 12,000 -- 36,000 Nagasaki A-bombs (earch having a yield of ~20 kilotons of TNT)
Also equivalent to 0.0003% -- 0.0009% of the World energy consumption in 1995.
http://www.ecoworld.com/home/articles2.cfm?tid=294
Also equivalent to 12,000 -- 36,000 Nagasaki A-bombs (earch having a yield of ~20 kilotons of TNT)
Also equivalent to 0.0003% -- 0.0009% of the World energy consumption in 1995.
http://www.ecoworld.com/home/articles2.cfm?tid=294
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 21 2007, 02:31 AM)
<...> But that was long after the design had been finalized. NIST found a ONE PAGE MEMO that mentioned a 707, lost in fog looking for an airport(fuel was not mentioned). Otherwise, NADA. <...>
I also have been arguing this for a while but it seems that it isn't quite the whole truth.
This issue has been debated at great length here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125395
Contributions by Make7 in messages #21, #47, #80 and #165 sum it up pretty well, in my view.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125428
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125464
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125566
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125935
I also have been arguing this for a while but it seems that it isn't quite the whole truth.
This issue has been debated at great length here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125395
Contributions by Make7 in messages #21, #47, #80 and #165 sum it up pretty well, in my view.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125428
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125464
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125566
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...&mesg_id=125935
Notice the wording of that first document.
The buildings were INVESTIGATED AND FOUND TO BE SAFE with an assumed collision of a large jet airliner.
NOTE, they do not say, WAS DESIGNED FOR.
The wording implies quite clearly that this was an AFTER THE FACT assessment.
Arthur
The buildings were INVESTIGATED AND FOUND TO BE SAFE with an assumed collision of a large jet airliner.
NOTE, they do not say, WAS DESIGNED FOR.
The wording implies quite clearly that this was an AFTER THE FACT assessment.
Arthur
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jun 21 2007, 04:04 AM)
Hi Reasonwhy! Was just about to sign off for the day when I saw your post...and have just enough pain tolerance left behind the eyeballs to briefly comment/question as follows.....
Given the "horrendous fire" that WAS anticipated even THEN (desp[ite the claims by CD/CTers that they were 'piddling/cool' fires and not 'horrendous as Skilling foresaw), how long would the structure "BE THERE" after the impact AND "horrendous fire"? Obviously Skilling meant that it would Sstill be there IMMEDIATELY after the impact and burning fuel deluge WITHIN.....but he NEVER considers/mentions how long it would stand GIVEN THE LOSS OF ALL FIREFIGHTING/FIREPROOFING/FIRERETARDANT capacities/capabilities AS WELL....which would make the horrendous fire of his imagination EVEN MORE HORRENDOUS.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
Oh, and I forgot to add (this damned headache!) that Skilling probably would have considered the STATIC strength of the tube-in-tube, and the assumption that the plane would only damage the OUTER 'TUBE' and NOT the INNER 'TUBE' (because if the that had been damaged all his assurances would have been simple WISHING for the best and not allowing for the worst...in the form of UNCONTROLLED super-horrific fire and inner/outer 'tube' load-juggling that could not be sustained forever as more of the structure succumbed to HIS PROPHESIED 'horrific fire' (only more so!). Skilling et al NEVER mentioned how EASILY (in the event!) the floor-connection system could be so EFFECTIVELY DYNAMICALLY SEPARATED (some in in series and some in parallel, depending on actual location/impacts/fire variables). Doing so would be an admission that the so-called ASSESSMENT was not worth the paper and pencil used, simply because the overall LONGER TERM structural ability to withstand such an impact and fire and subsequent physical/geometric MOVEMENTS for an hour after during UNCONTROLLED fire/cooling processes) (in fire/shifting-load circumstances) ALSO DEPENDED on the LATERAL SUPPORT of the floors THROUGH THOSE SAME CONNECTORS...hence the vulnerability to global collapse after damage from his foreseen uncontrolled horrendous fire.
And it seems a double-standard for CDers/CTers to blithely and readily accuse NIST et al of conspiracy, when at the same time these CDers/CTers do not even consider the possible motives for a 'conspiracy' of sorts AT THE TIME OF THE PROJECT...when reputations, money, jobs, face=saving and future commisiions/constructions were at stake...from the Port Authority, to designers, engineers, middlemen, etc AT THE TIME.
So perhaps the 'conspiracy' was THEN, not NOW, hmmm?
Ouch....gotta go, NOW!
PS:
Thanks and Hi to you, Grumpy! Missed y'all!
RC.
.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 21 2007, 02:04 AM)
Metamars -
The total energy that could be coupled to the ground would be limited by two factors:
The energy capable of being coupled through the intact part of the structure would be limited by the maximum structural capacity of the remaining structure, which was about twice the static load (DBB to correct me on this).
The fraction of that energy that would be coupled to bedrock would be limited by the ratio of the acoustic impedance of the structure to that of the basement, and again reduced by the same impedance mismatch between the basement and the "bathtub".
When shock waves/acoustic energy travels through a medium and encounters an impedance mismatch, the energy reflected at the mismatch is the difference between the two impedances divided by the sum of the two impedances. The rest is transmitted through the mismatch. (I think I said that right.) So if the mismatch is 1:4, then 3/5ths of the energy gets reflected and 2/5ths gets transmitted.
If you can figure a way to calculate the acoustic impedances of the tower section, the basement section, and the "bathtub", then you should be able to calculate the total energy transmitted into the ground. What it does from there is seismology.
And that leads to the so-called plastic bifurcation ?
The total energy that could be coupled to the ground would be limited by two factors:
The energy capable of being coupled through the intact part of the structure would be limited by the maximum structural capacity of the remaining structure, which was about twice the static load (DBB to correct me on this).
The fraction of that energy that would be coupled to bedrock would be limited by the ratio of the acoustic impedance of the structure to that of the basement, and again reduced by the same impedance mismatch between the basement and the "bathtub".
When shock waves/acoustic energy travels through a medium and encounters an impedance mismatch, the energy reflected at the mismatch is the difference between the two impedances divided by the sum of the two impedances. The rest is transmitted through the mismatch. (I think I said that right.) So if the mismatch is 1:4, then 3/5ths of the energy gets reflected and 2/5ths gets transmitted.
If you can figure a way to calculate the acoustic impedances of the tower section, the basement section, and the "bathtub", then you should be able to calculate the total energy transmitted into the ground. What it does from there is seismology.
And that leads to the so-called plastic bifurcation ?
QUOTE (Palpatane+Jun 21 2007, 02:35 AM)

El Al, Rotterdam, 1992
Yes the Bijlmer Crash, a friend of me saw that plane crashing.
It was due to metal fatigue in one of the pins of the engines and due to bad luck the engine that fell collapsed onto the other engine and that one was also gone.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 17 2007, 11:06 AM)
Some comments on the derivation of the crush-up equation in Bazant and Verdure (B&V, for short).
http://www.debunking911.com/ProgressiveCol...C-6-23-2006.pdf
I’ll use the pagination in the draft version linked above rather than the pagination in the published version.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=226737
This is a follow-up to the post linked above, where I looked into the equation of propagation of the collapse front during the crush-down phase, as derived in Bazant and Verdure.
I now look into the derivation of the equation for the crush-up phase. This phase begins when the compacted mass of Zone-B created during the crush-down phase reaches the ground (= the bottom of the "bathtub").
Whereas in the crush-down phase the z(t) coordinate designated the distance of the collapse front from the initial position of the roofline; in the crush-up phase, the y(t) coordinate designates the distance of the collapse front from the current moving roof-line. The collapse front is now on top of Zone B. The lowest Part A no longer exists at the start of crush-up.
We thus have that -- in a manner that is similar to the crush-down case -- dy(t)/dt does not represent the speed of the "upper block" (now corresponding the Part C alone) but rather represents the "shortening speed" of this block. After some slice of infinitesimal thickness dy of Part C is crushed to thickness lambda*dy. The height of the rubble pile is increased by lambda*dy, and it follows that the roofline has descended (1 - lambda)*dy. The net speed of the upper block is thus (1 - lambda)*dy/dt. Likewise, its acceleration is (1 - lambda)(d/dt)(dy/dt).
We now use m(y) to represent the (implicitly) time dependent mass of the upper block. The momentum of the upper-block is thus
p = m(y)*(1 - lambda)(dy/dt)
The downward acceleration of the upper block is opposed by upward inertia force
dp/dt = FC_i = -(d/dt){m(y)[1 - lambda]dy/dt}
Calculating the time derivative we get:
[eq. 1] dp/dt = -m(y)(1 – lambda)(d/dt)(dy/dt) – (dm/dt) )(1 - lambda)(dy/dt)
B&V calculate the rate of variation of the momentum that results from mass reducing its velocity to 0 as it hits the top of the rubble pile (and is thus transferred from Part C to Zone B). This is
[eq. 2] dp/dt = (\mu(y)(dy/dt)(1 – lambda)(dy/dt)
where \mu(y) is the linear mass density. (“\mu” is the Greek letter mu.)
Notice that \mu(y)(dy/dt) just is dm/dt. It follows that this expression [eq. 2] just is the second term of the right hand side of [eq. 1].
So, while the first term in [eq. 1] represents the variation in momentum that is due to Part C accelerating, the second term represents the variation in momentum that is due to mass being lost to the rubble pile (Zone B). The inertial reaction from the deceleration of mass that is represented by this term really ought not to figure into the equation of dynamic equilibrium since this mass is being decelerated by the normal force from the surface of the compacted rubble pile and certainly not as a result of Zone C somehow pulling on it. This is a mistake B&V do. Yet, they also claim that the inertial force from this second term acts upward as a reaction, from Zone B onto Part C. They label this FB_i and they make this force figure as well into the equation of dynamic equilibrium. This is a second mistake that exactly cancels the first one! As a result they get the correct equation for crush-up (eq. 17 in the paper.)
In my next post on this subject, I will look at the derivation of the crush-up and the crush-down equations through consideration of potential and kinetic energies that appears in the “Alternative Formulations, Extensions, Ramifications” section of the B&V paper. Notice that there is a typo in eq. 27. There figures one “(z)” to many in both the second and third terms of the LHS of this equation. There is also a significant error in the crush down derivation even though, at the end, they get the correct equation of motion. I’ll offer a free beer to whoever spots the error before I post it here. (In the meantime, I’ll try to work out an analogy with the variable mass "rocket equation".)
http://www.debunking911.com/ProgressiveCol...C-6-23-2006.pdf
I’ll use the pagination in the draft version linked above rather than the pagination in the published version.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=226737
This is a follow-up to the post linked above, where I looked into the equation of propagation of the collapse front during the crush-down phase, as derived in Bazant and Verdure.
I now look into the derivation of the equation for the crush-up phase. This phase begins when the compacted mass of Zone-B created during the crush-down phase reaches the ground (= the bottom of the "bathtub").
Whereas in the crush-down phase the z(t) coordinate designated the distance of the collapse front from the initial position of the roofline; in the crush-up phase, the y(t) coordinate designates the distance of the collapse front from the current moving roof-line. The collapse front is now on top of Zone B. The lowest Part A no longer exists at the start of crush-up.
We thus have that -- in a manner that is similar to the crush-down case -- dy(t)/dt does not represent the speed of the "upper block" (now corresponding the Part C alone) but rather represents the "shortening speed" of this block. After some slice of infinitesimal thickness dy of Part C is crushed to thickness lambda*dy. The height of the rubble pile is increased by lambda*dy, and it follows that the roofline has descended (1 - lambda)*dy. The net speed of the upper block is thus (1 - lambda)*dy/dt. Likewise, its acceleration is (1 - lambda)(d/dt)(dy/dt).
We now use m(y) to represent the (implicitly) time dependent mass of the upper block. The momentum of the upper-block is thus
p = m(y)*(1 - lambda)(dy/dt)
The downward acceleration of the upper block is opposed by upward inertia force
dp/dt = FC_i = -(d/dt){m(y)[1 - lambda]dy/dt}
Calculating the time derivative we get:
[eq. 1] dp/dt = -m(y)(1 – lambda)(d/dt)(dy/dt) – (dm/dt) )(1 - lambda)(dy/dt)
B&V calculate the rate of variation of the momentum that results from mass reducing its velocity to 0 as it hits the top of the rubble pile (and is thus transferred from Part C to Zone B). This is
[eq. 2] dp/dt = (\mu(y)(dy/dt)(1 – lambda)(dy/dt)
where \mu(y) is the linear mass density. (“\mu” is the Greek letter mu.)
Notice that \mu(y)(dy/dt) just is dm/dt. It follows that this expression [eq. 2] just is the second term of the right hand side of [eq. 1].
So, while the first term in [eq. 1] represents the variation in momentum that is due to Part C accelerating, the second term represents the variation in momentum that is due to mass being lost to the rubble pile (Zone B). The inertial reaction from the deceleration of mass that is represented by this term really ought not to figure into the equation of dynamic equilibrium since this mass is being decelerated by the normal force from the surface of the compacted rubble pile and certainly not as a result of Zone C somehow pulling on it. This is a mistake B&V do. Yet, they also claim that the inertial force from this second term acts upward as a reaction, from Zone B onto Part C. They label this FB_i and they make this force figure as well into the equation of dynamic equilibrium. This is a second mistake that exactly cancels the first one! As a result they get the correct equation for crush-up (eq. 17 in the paper.)
In my next post on this subject, I will look at the derivation of the crush-up and the crush-down equations through consideration of potential and kinetic energies that appears in the “Alternative Formulations, Extensions, Ramifications” section of the B&V paper. Notice that there is a typo in eq. 27. There figures one “(z)” to many in both the second and third terms of the LHS of this equation. There is also a significant error in the crush down derivation even though, at the end, they get the correct equation of motion. I’ll offer a free beer to whoever spots the error before I post it here. (In the meantime, I’ll try to work out an analogy with the variable mass "rocket equation".)
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 21 2007, 10:04 AM)
There is also a significant error in the crush down derivation even though, at the end, they get the correct equation of motion. I’ll offer a free beer to whoever spots the error before I post it here. (In the meantime, I’ll try to work out an analogy with the variable mass "rocket equation".)
So, let us look again at the crush-down equation. In my first post on this subject I suggested this was really rocket science. It is now time to back up this suggestion with some calculations.
The rocket equation is:
[1] m*dv/dt = -V*dm/dt - mg
where v is the velocity of the rocket and V is the velocity of the escaping gasses relative to the rocket. (See Herbert Goldstein, Classical Mechanics, 2nd ed., Addison Wesley, 1980, p.31)
This can be written thus
m*dv/dt -V*dm/dt + mg = 0
This is just the dynamic equilibrium condition of the rocket according to the D’Alembert principle. The first term is the inertial reaction from the acceleration of the rocket. The second term is the reaction on the rocket from the acceleration of the escaping gasses and mg is the force of gravity.
Now let us look at the crush-down equation (12) in Bazant & Verdure.
(12) d/dt{m(z)(1 - lambda)(dz/dt)} - mg = -F_c(z)
Let us set F_c(z) = 0 in order to consider a pure momentum transfer model without any structural and/or air resistance. Notice also that the “material velocity” v of the upper block is (1 - lambda)dz/dt. Calculating also the time derivative of the first term we get:
[12b] v*dm/dt + m*dv/dt - mg = 0
Let us reverse the spatial coordinate “(1 - lambda)z” so that positive z increments correspond to upward displacements (as is the case in the rocket equation [1]) and let us also reverse dm so that positive variations in mass correspond to mass ejection rather than accretion. We get:
[12c] -v*dm/dt - m*dv/dt - mg = 0
which is the same as [1] provided we set V = v.
This can easily be interpreted thus. The crush down phase of the tower collapse (in the case F_c = 0) is the time reversal of a rocket of mass m. The “rocket” consists into both crushed Zone B (the “fuel tank”) and the upper block (Part C). Whereas, in forward time, an amount of energy delta_K was irreversibly dissipated in the process of decelerating the accreting mass dm, in reversed time, the same amount of chemical energy is recovered (while crushed concrete re-sets, etc.) to accelerate crushed rubble to velocity v relative to the upper block. The reaction force F_m = v*dm/dt propels the rest of the crushed zone and the upper block upwards. Or rather, this reaction force slows down the gravitational deceleration of the upper block. Since the upper block also travels at v, this “ejected” matter comes to rest while it progressively reconstitutes an intact Part-A until Zone-B vanished and Part-C comes to rest in its final intact condition. (This was the initial condition of the tower in the forward time collapse)
I am not proposing this as a practical method for repairing buildings in cases of accidental or rogue demolitions. The second law of thermodynamics discourages such business ventures. Rather, I thought the analogy with rockets was interesting. It is also a reminder of the role of energy dissipation (or production) in such mechanical processes that do not conserve kinetic energy because they involve inelastic collisions or thermal expansion of gasses in chemical exothermic reactions, etc.)
So, let us look again at the crush-down equation. In my first post on this subject I suggested this was really rocket science. It is now time to back up this suggestion with some calculations.
The rocket equation is:
[1] m*dv/dt = -V*dm/dt - mg
where v is the velocity of the rocket and V is the velocity of the escaping gasses relative to the rocket. (See Herbert Goldstein, Classical Mechanics, 2nd ed., Addison Wesley, 1980, p.31)
This can be written thus
m*dv/dt -V*dm/dt + mg = 0
This is just the dynamic equilibrium condition of the rocket according to the D’Alembert principle. The first term is the inertial reaction from the acceleration of the rocket. The second term is the reaction on the rocket from the acceleration of the escaping gasses and mg is the force of gravity.
Now let us look at the crush-down equation (12) in Bazant & Verdure.
(12) d/dt{m(z)(1 - lambda)(dz/dt)} - mg = -F_c(z)
Let us set F_c(z) = 0 in order to consider a pure momentum transfer model without any structural and/or air resistance. Notice also that the “material velocity” v of the upper block is (1 - lambda)dz/dt. Calculating also the time derivative of the first term we get:
[12b] v*dm/dt + m*dv/dt - mg = 0
Let us reverse the spatial coordinate “(1 - lambda)z” so that positive z increments correspond to upward displacements (as is the case in the rocket equation [1]) and let us also reverse dm so that positive variations in mass correspond to mass ejection rather than accretion. We get:
[12c] -v*dm/dt - m*dv/dt - mg = 0
which is the same as [1] provided we set V = v.
This can easily be interpreted thus. The crush down phase of the tower collapse (in the case F_c = 0) is the time reversal of a rocket of mass m. The “rocket” consists into both crushed Zone B (the “fuel tank”) and the upper block (Part C). Whereas, in forward time, an amount of energy delta_K was irreversibly dissipated in the process of decelerating the accreting mass dm, in reversed time, the same amount of chemical energy is recovered (while crushed concrete re-sets, etc.) to accelerate crushed rubble to velocity v relative to the upper block. The reaction force F_m = v*dm/dt propels the rest of the crushed zone and the upper block upwards. Or rather, this reaction force slows down the gravitational deceleration of the upper block. Since the upper block also travels at v, this “ejected” matter comes to rest while it progressively reconstitutes an intact Part-A until Zone-B vanished and Part-C comes to rest in its final intact condition. (This was the initial condition of the tower in the forward time collapse)
I am not proposing this as a practical method for repairing buildings in cases of accidental or rogue demolitions. The second law of thermodynamics discourages such business ventures. Rather, I thought the analogy with rockets was interesting. It is also a reminder of the role of energy dissipation (or production) in such mechanical processes that do not conserve kinetic energy because they involve inelastic collisions or thermal expansion of gasses in chemical exothermic reactions, etc.)
Pierre-Normand:
Nice post! I like the comparison to the rocket equation.
By the way, on the rotational angular momentum question, I have done a few calculations of this for the tilting of the upper section of WTC 2:
Consider an upper section of height h, that starts rotating from an initial tilt angle of Qo degrees at an angular rate of dQ/dt.
The total energy = potential energy + rotational KE
= 1/2Mgh cosQ + 1/6Mh^2 {dQ/dt}^2
Observations of the initial rate of tipping of the upper section of WTC 2 indicate that dQ/dt starts at about 0.05 radians/second and, after putting everything on a per kg basis, we have an initial PE of about 540 J/kg and a rotational KE of only about 5 J/kg.
After about 3 seconds, when the tilting was about 20 degrees, the rotational KE would have increased to about 40 J/kg, but the PE term still predominates.
However, much beyond this point, the upper block no longer remained rigid so the rotational + potential energy is no longer conserved.
Nice post! I like the comparison to the rocket equation.
By the way, on the rotational angular momentum question, I have done a few calculations of this for the tilting of the upper section of WTC 2:
Consider an upper section of height h, that starts rotating from an initial tilt angle of Qo degrees at an angular rate of dQ/dt.
The total energy = potential energy + rotational KE
= 1/2Mgh cosQ + 1/6Mh^2 {dQ/dt}^2
Observations of the initial rate of tipping of the upper section of WTC 2 indicate that dQ/dt starts at about 0.05 radians/second and, after putting everything on a per kg basis, we have an initial PE of about 540 J/kg and a rotational KE of only about 5 J/kg.
After about 3 seconds, when the tilting was about 20 degrees, the rotational KE would have increased to about 40 J/kg, but the PE term still predominates.
However, much beyond this point, the upper block no longer remained rigid so the rotational + potential energy is no longer conserved.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 21 2007, 12:40 PM)
So, let us look again at the crush-down equation. In my first post on this subject I suggested this was really rocket science. It is now time to back up this suggestion with some calculations.
The rocket equation is:
[1] m*dv/dt = -V*dm/dt - mg
where v is the velocity of the rocket and V is the velocity of the escaping gasses relative to the rocket. (See Herbert Goldstein, Classical Mechanics, 2nd ed., Addison Wesley, 1980, p.31)
I attempted to add this to the previous post on edit but the delay for edition just expired.
Here is an exercise for the reader:
The power at liftoff of the Saturn V rocket was 44,900,000 kW (60,200,000 HP)
(The Apollo 13 mission used such a rocket -- the most massive ever built)
http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.space.hi...de=source&hl=en
The terminal velocity of the upper block of WTC1 was 47.49m/s
The linear mass density of WTC1 near the base was 1.46*10^6kg/m
(From Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson)
Consider the time-reversed equation of the collapse. Compute the power of the un-collapsing WTC1-rocket at liftoff. Compare this to the power of the Saturn V rocket.
You can restrict the analysis to the effect of the inertial reaction force F_m = v*dm/dt. Including also F_c (the force provided by column un-buckling and air injection) would increase the un-collapsing power only slightly.
Notice that this power just was the rate of energy dissipation in forward time collapse from the action of F_m alone!
The rocket equation is:
[1] m*dv/dt = -V*dm/dt - mg
where v is the velocity of the rocket and V is the velocity of the escaping gasses relative to the rocket. (See Herbert Goldstein, Classical Mechanics, 2nd ed., Addison Wesley, 1980, p.31)
I attempted to add this to the previous post on edit but the delay for edition just expired.
Here is an exercise for the reader:
The power at liftoff of the Saturn V rocket was 44,900,000 kW (60,200,000 HP)
(The Apollo 13 mission used such a rocket -- the most massive ever built)
http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.space.hi...de=source&hl=en
The terminal velocity of the upper block of WTC1 was 47.49m/s
The linear mass density of WTC1 near the base was 1.46*10^6kg/m
(From Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson)
Consider the time-reversed equation of the collapse. Compute the power of the un-collapsing WTC1-rocket at liftoff. Compare this to the power of the Saturn V rocket.
You can restrict the analysis to the effect of the inertial reaction force F_m = v*dm/dt. Including also F_c (the force provided by column un-buckling and air injection) would increase the un-collapsing power only slightly.
Notice that this power just was the rate of energy dissipation in forward time collapse from the action of F_m alone!
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jun 21 2007, 01:50 PM)
After about 3 seconds, when the tilting was about 20 degrees, the rotational KE would have increased to about 40 J/kg, but the PE term still predominates.
However, much beyond this point, the upper block no longer remained rigid so the rotational + potential energy is no longer conserved.
Thanks for the feedback and the ammunitions NEU-FONZE !
However, much beyond this point, the upper block no longer remained rigid so the rotational + potential energy is no longer conserved.
Thanks for the feedback and the ammunitions NEU-FONZE !
reasonless
Actually it was just a case of CYA
"The Height of Ambition: Part Four
By JAMES GLANZ and ERIC LIPTON
-snip-
But Robertson still had one more set of structural calculations to perform. Lawrence Wien, who was continuing his fight against the towers, had begun to remind New Yorkers publicly of a Saturday morning in July 1945, when a B-25 bomber, lost in the fog, barreled into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. Most of the 14 people who died were incinerated by a fireball created when the plane's fuel ignited, even though the fire was quickly contained. The following year, another plane crashed into the 72-story skyscraper at 40 Wall Street, and yet another one narrowly missed the Empire State Building, terrifying sightseers on the observation deck.
Wien and his committee charged that the twin towers, with their broader and higher tops, would represent an even greater risk of midair collision. They ran a nearly full-page ad in The Times with an artist's rendition of a commercial airliner about to ram one of the towers. "Unfortunately, we rarely recognize how serious these problems are until it's too late to do anything," the caption said.
The Port Authority was already trying to line up the thousands of tenants it would need to fill the acres of office space in the towers. Such a frightful vision could not be left unchallenged. Robertson says that he never saw the ad and was ignorant of the political battle behind it. Still, he recalls that he addressed the question of an airplane collision, if only to satisfy his engineer's curiosity. For whatever reason, Robertson took the time to calculate how well his towers would handle the impact from a Boeing 707, the largest jetliner in service at the time. He says that his calculations assumed a plane lost in a fog while searching for an airport at relatively low speed, like the B-25 bomber. He concluded that the towers would remain standing despite the force of the impact and the hole it would punch out. The new technologies he had installed after the motion experiments and wind-tunnel work had created a structure more than strong enough to withstand such a blow.
Exactly how Robertson performed these calculations is apparently lost -- he says he cannot find a copy of the report. Several engineers who worked with him at the time, including the director of his computer department, say they have no recollection of ever seeing the study. But the Port Authority, eager to mount a counterattack against Wien, seized on the results -- and may in fact have exaggerated them. One architect working for the Port Authority issued a statement to the press, covered in a prominent article in The Times, explaining that Robertson's study proved that the towers could withstand the impact of a jetliner moving at 600 miles an hour. That was perhaps three times the speed that Robertson had considered. If Robertson saw the article in the paper, he never spoke up about the discrepancy. No one else issued a correction, and the question was answered in many people's minds: the towers were as safe as could be expected, even in the most cataclysmic of circumstances.
There were only two problems. The first, of course, was that no study of the impact of a 600-mile-an-hour plane ever existed. "That's got nothing to do with the reality of what we did," Robertson snapped when shown the Port Authority architect's statement more than three decades later.
The second problem was that no one thought to take into account the fires that would inevitably break out when the jetliner's fuel exploded, exactly as the B-25's had. And if Wien was the trade center's Cassandra, fire protection would become its Achilles' heel."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/magazine/08WTC4.html
The real story, not CTer myth. The Twin Towers were NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind, no calculations or evaluations were documented(despite anyone's claims) and the only realm where such evaluations were considered was public relations, not engineering.
Grumpy
QUOTE
WOW!
What a conspiracy you uncovered. All the Architects, engineers and newspapers were in on it up the Skilling. How many thousands of people?
I will stick with the expert on this (Skilling).
What a conspiracy you uncovered. All the Architects, engineers and newspapers were in on it up the Skilling. How many thousands of people?
I will stick with the expert on this (Skilling).
Actually it was just a case of CYA
"The Height of Ambition: Part Four
By JAMES GLANZ and ERIC LIPTON
-snip-
But Robertson still had one more set of structural calculations to perform. Lawrence Wien, who was continuing his fight against the towers, had begun to remind New Yorkers publicly of a Saturday morning in July 1945, when a B-25 bomber, lost in the fog, barreled into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. Most of the 14 people who died were incinerated by a fireball created when the plane's fuel ignited, even though the fire was quickly contained. The following year, another plane crashed into the 72-story skyscraper at 40 Wall Street, and yet another one narrowly missed the Empire State Building, terrifying sightseers on the observation deck.
Wien and his committee charged that the twin towers, with their broader and higher tops, would represent an even greater risk of midair collision. They ran a nearly full-page ad in The Times with an artist's rendition of a commercial airliner about to ram one of the towers. "Unfortunately, we rarely recognize how serious these problems are until it's too late to do anything," the caption said.
The Port Authority was already trying to line up the thousands of tenants it would need to fill the acres of office space in the towers. Such a frightful vision could not be left unchallenged. Robertson says that he never saw the ad and was ignorant of the political battle behind it. Still, he recalls that he addressed the question of an airplane collision, if only to satisfy his engineer's curiosity. For whatever reason, Robertson took the time to calculate how well his towers would handle the impact from a Boeing 707, the largest jetliner in service at the time. He says that his calculations assumed a plane lost in a fog while searching for an airport at relatively low speed, like the B-25 bomber. He concluded that the towers would remain standing despite the force of the impact and the hole it would punch out. The new technologies he had installed after the motion experiments and wind-tunnel work had created a structure more than strong enough to withstand such a blow.
Exactly how Robertson performed these calculations is apparently lost -- he says he cannot find a copy of the report. Several engineers who worked with him at the time, including the director of his computer department, say they have no recollection of ever seeing the study. But the Port Authority, eager to mount a counterattack against Wien, seized on the results -- and may in fact have exaggerated them. One architect working for the Port Authority issued a statement to the press, covered in a prominent article in The Times, explaining that Robertson's study proved that the towers could withstand the impact of a jetliner moving at 600 miles an hour. That was perhaps three times the speed that Robertson had considered. If Robertson saw the article in the paper, he never spoke up about the discrepancy. No one else issued a correction, and the question was answered in many people's minds: the towers were as safe as could be expected, even in the most cataclysmic of circumstances.
There were only two problems. The first, of course, was that no study of the impact of a 600-mile-an-hour plane ever existed. "That's got nothing to do with the reality of what we did," Robertson snapped when shown the Port Authority architect's statement more than three decades later.
The second problem was that no one thought to take into account the fires that would inevitably break out when the jetliner's fuel exploded, exactly as the B-25's had. And if Wien was the trade center's Cassandra, fire protection would become its Achilles' heel."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/magazine/08WTC4.html
The real story, not CTer myth. The Twin Towers were NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind, no calculations or evaluations were documented(despite anyone's claims) and the only realm where such evaluations were considered was public relations, not engineering.
Grumpy
But was the WTC designed with impact from "...a plane lost in a fog (180mph) while searching for an airport..." in mind ?
Um...no. There is NO EVIDENCE for it!
Um...no. There is NO EVIDENCE for it!
QUOTE (Daru+Jun 21 2007, 03:23 PM)
But was the WTC designed with impact from "...a plane lost in a fog (180mph) while searching for an airport..." in mind ?
Um...no. There is NO EVIDENCE for it!
http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB
If this isn't evidence then Skilling's quoted claim isn't either.
Um...no. There is NO EVIDENCE for it!
http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB
If this isn't evidence then Skilling's quoted claim isn't either.
And how exactly is that evidence ??
Hint: ORGINAL STUDY !!
But about it all... consider this: WTC was designed for B707 moving 180 mph... but not for B707 travelling 185 mph or 200 mph.... if it was over 180 mph... then the tower would turn to dust in 12-14 sec !!!
(The hard fact is that the towers were designed for 600 mph and would easily handle it. I have already explained it how the key point was in the design.)
Hint: ORGINAL STUDY !!
But about it all... consider this: WTC was designed for B707 moving 180 mph... but not for B707 travelling 185 mph or 200 mph.... if it was over 180 mph... then the tower would turn to dust in 12-14 sec !!!
(The hard fact is that the towers were designed for 600 mph and would easily handle it. I have already explained it how the key point was in the design.)
QUOTE (Daru+Jun 21 2007, 10:44 AM)
The hard fact is that the towers were designed for 600 mph and would easily handle it.
No, actually you haven't shown ONE FACT to substantiate that the DESIGN of the tower COULD handle a 600 mph impact.
NOT ONE FACT.
It doesn't matter what someone CLAIMs the towers could handle.
It ONLY MATTERS what they COULD handle.
If you don't believe NIST, then look at the independent PURDUE study.
It clearly shows that the towers were damaged much like the NIST study showed.
Which, along with the fires, led to their eventual collapse.
Arthur
No, actually you haven't shown ONE FACT to substantiate that the DESIGN of the tower COULD handle a 600 mph impact.
NOT ONE FACT.
It doesn't matter what someone CLAIMs the towers could handle.
It ONLY MATTERS what they COULD handle.
If you don't believe NIST, then look at the independent PURDUE study.
It clearly shows that the towers were damaged much like the NIST study showed.
Which, along with the fires, led to their eventual collapse.
Arthur
Daru
No, the hard fact is that those buildings(like any other) were NOT designed with impact of large aircraft in mind. All you HAVE shown is that the myth that they WERE so designed is key to your delusions concerning CD.
"Figure 3 shows the comparative energy of impact for the Mitchell bomber that hit the Empire State Building during World War II, a 707, and a 767. The energy contained in the fuel is shown in Figure 4. Considerations of larger aircraft are shown in Figures 5 and 6. The physical sizes of these aircraft are compared with the size of the floor plate of one of the towers in Figure 7. These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets."
http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB
Straight out of the mouth of the head engineer, Robertson.
No, the hard fact is that those buildings(like any other) were NOT designed with impact of large aircraft in mind. All you HAVE shown is that the myth that they WERE so designed is key to your delusions concerning CD.
"Figure 3 shows the comparative energy of impact for the Mitchell bomber that hit the Empire State Building during World War II, a 707, and a 767. The energy contained in the fuel is shown in Figure 4. Considerations of larger aircraft are shown in Figures 5 and 6. The physical sizes of these aircraft are compared with the size of the floor plate of one of the towers in Figure 7. These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets."
http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB
Straight out of the mouth of the head engineer, Robertson.
But about it all... consider this: WTC was designed for B707 moving 180 mph... but not for B707 travelling 185 mph or 200 mph.... if it was over 180 mph... then the tower would turn to dust in 12-14 sec !!!
"turn to dust"??? You really don't know anything, do you???
Grumpy
QUOTE
(The hard fact is that the towers were designed for 600 mph and would easily handle it. I have already explained it how the key point was in the design.)
No, the hard fact is that those buildings(like any other) were NOT designed with impact of large aircraft in mind. All you HAVE shown is that the myth that they WERE so designed is key to your delusions concerning CD.
"Figure 3 shows the comparative energy of impact for the Mitchell bomber that hit the Empire State Building during World War II, a 707, and a 767. The energy contained in the fuel is shown in Figure 4. Considerations of larger aircraft are shown in Figures 5 and 6. The physical sizes of these aircraft are compared with the size of the floor plate of one of the towers in Figure 7. These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets."
http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB
Straight out of the mouth of the head engineer, Robertson.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| (The hard fact is that the towers were designed for 600 mph and would easily handle it. I have already explained it how the key point was in the design.) |
No, the hard fact is that those buildings(like any other) were NOT designed with impact of large aircraft in mind. All you HAVE shown is that the myth that they WERE so designed is key to your delusions concerning CD.
"Figure 3 shows the comparative energy of impact for the Mitchell bomber that hit the Empire State Building during World War II, a 707, and a 767. The energy contained in the fuel is shown in Figure 4. Considerations of larger aircraft are shown in Figures 5 and 6. The physical sizes of these aircraft are compared with the size of the floor plate of one of the towers in Figure 7. These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets."
http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB
Straight out of the mouth of the head engineer, Robertson.
But about it all... consider this: WTC was designed for B707 moving 180 mph... but not for B707 travelling 185 mph or 200 mph.... if it was over 180 mph... then the tower would turn to dust in 12-14 sec !!!
"turn to dust"??? You really don't know anything, do you???
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun 21 2007, 07:14 AM)
reasonless
Actually it was just a case of CYA
"The Height of Ambition: Part Four
By JAMES GLANZ and ERIC LIPTON
-snip-
But Robertson still had one more set of structural calculations to perform. Lawrence Wien, who was continuing his fight against the towers, had begun to remind New Yorkers publicly of a Saturday morning in July 1945, when a B-25 bomber, lost in the fog, barreled into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. Most of the 14 people who died were incinerated by a fireball created when the plane's fuel ignited, even though the fire was quickly contained. The following year, another plane crashed into the 72-story skyscraper at 40 Wall Street, and yet another one narrowly missed the Empire State Building, terrifying sightseers on the observation deck.
Wien and his committee charged that the twin towers, with their broader and higher tops, would represent an even greater risk of midair collision. They ran a nearly full-page ad in The Times with an artist's rendition of a commercial airliner about to ram one of the towers. "Unfortunately, we rarely recognize how serious these problems are until it's too late to do anything," the caption said.
The Port Authority was already trying to line up the thousands of tenants it would need to fill the acres of office space in the towers. Such a frightful vision could not be left unchallenged. Robertson says that he never saw the ad and was ignorant of the political battle behind it. Still, he recalls that he addressed the question of an airplane collision, if only to satisfy his engineer's curiosity. For whatever reason, Robertson took the time to calculate how well his towers would handle the impact from a Boeing 707, the largest jetliner in service at the time. He says that his calculations assumed a plane lost in a fog while searching for an airport at relatively low speed, like the B-25 bomber. He concluded that the towers would remain standing despite the force of the impact and the hole it would punch out. The new technologies he had installed after the motion experiments and wind-tunnel work had created a structure more than strong enough to withstand such a blow.
Exactly how Robertson performed these calculations is apparently lost -- he says he cannot find a copy of the report. Several engineers who worked with him at the time, including the director of his computer department, say they have no recollection of ever seeing the study. But the Port Authority, eager to mount a counterattack against Wien, seized on the results -- and may in fact have exaggerated them. One architect working for the Port Authority issued a statement to the press, covered in a prominent article in The Times, explaining that Robertson's study proved that the towers could withstand the impact of a jetliner moving at 600 miles an hour. That was perhaps three times the speed that Robertson had considered. If Robertson saw the article in the paper, he never spoke up about the discrepancy. No one else issued a correction, and the question was answered in many people's minds: the towers were as safe as could be expected, even in the most cataclysmic of circumstances.
There were only two problems. The first, of course, was that no study of the impact of a 600-mile-an-hour plane ever existed. "That's got nothing to do with the reality of what we did," Robertson snapped when shown the Port Authority architect's statement more than three decades later.
The second problem was that no one thought to take into account the fires that would inevitably break out when the jetliner's fuel exploded, exactly as the B-25's had. And if Wien was the trade center's Cassandra, fire protection would become its Achilles' heel."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/magazine/08WTC4.html
The real story, not CTer myth. The Twin Towers were NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind, no calculations or evaluations were documented(despite anyone's claims) and the only realm where such evaluations were considered was public relations, not engineering.
Grumpy
OCT’er are hypocrites.
You have to have proof that Skilling is telling the truth with the study.
You believe the NIST report without any forensic evidences backing up temperatures, buckling or trusses pulling in the columns. (The relevant evidence was on top of the pile until it was destroyed by treasonous opportunist)
SO, according to your logic , the NIST report is BS since the actual tests and forensic evidence do not agree with the report.
Actually it was just a case of CYA
"The Height of Ambition: Part Four
By JAMES GLANZ and ERIC LIPTON
-snip-
But Robertson still had one more set of structural calculations to perform. Lawrence Wien, who was continuing his fight against the towers, had begun to remind New Yorkers publicly of a Saturday morning in July 1945, when a B-25 bomber, lost in the fog, barreled into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. Most of the 14 people who died were incinerated by a fireball created when the plane's fuel ignited, even though the fire was quickly contained. The following year, another plane crashed into the 72-story skyscraper at 40 Wall Street, and yet another one narrowly missed the Empire State Building, terrifying sightseers on the observation deck.
Wien and his committee charged that the twin towers, with their broader and higher tops, would represent an even greater risk of midair collision. They ran a nearly full-page ad in The Times with an artist's rendition of a commercial airliner about to ram one of the towers. "Unfortunately, we rarely recognize how serious these problems are until it's too late to do anything," the caption said.
The Port Authority was already trying to line up the thousands of tenants it would need to fill the acres of office space in the towers. Such a frightful vision could not be left unchallenged. Robertson says that he never saw the ad and was ignorant of the political battle behind it. Still, he recalls that he addressed the question of an airplane collision, if only to satisfy his engineer's curiosity. For whatever reason, Robertson took the time to calculate how well his towers would handle the impact from a Boeing 707, the largest jetliner in service at the time. He says that his calculations assumed a plane lost in a fog while searching for an airport at relatively low speed, like the B-25 bomber. He concluded that the towers would remain standing despite the force of the impact and the hole it would punch out. The new technologies he had installed after the motion experiments and wind-tunnel work had created a structure more than strong enough to withstand such a blow.
Exactly how Robertson performed these calculations is apparently lost -- he says he cannot find a copy of the report. Several engineers who worked with him at the time, including the director of his computer department, say they have no recollection of ever seeing the study. But the Port Authority, eager to mount a counterattack against Wien, seized on the results -- and may in fact have exaggerated them. One architect working for the Port Authority issued a statement to the press, covered in a prominent article in The Times, explaining that Robertson's study proved that the towers could withstand the impact of a jetliner moving at 600 miles an hour. That was perhaps three times the speed that Robertson had considered. If Robertson saw the article in the paper, he never spoke up about the discrepancy. No one else issued a correction, and the question was answered in many people's minds: the towers were as safe as could be expected, even in the most cataclysmic of circumstances.
There were only two problems. The first, of course, was that no study of the impact of a 600-mile-an-hour plane ever existed. "That's got nothing to do with the reality of what we did," Robertson snapped when shown the Port Authority architect's statement more than three decades later.
The second problem was that no one thought to take into account the fires that would inevitably break out when the jetliner's fuel exploded, exactly as the B-25's had. And if Wien was the trade center's Cassandra, fire protection would become its Achilles' heel."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/magazine/08WTC4.html
The real story, not CTer myth. The Twin Towers were NOT designed with aircraft impact in mind, no calculations or evaluations were documented(despite anyone's claims) and the only realm where such evaluations were considered was public relations, not engineering.
Grumpy
OCT’er are hypocrites.
You have to have proof that Skilling is telling the truth with the study.
You believe the NIST report without any forensic evidences backing up temperatures, buckling or trusses pulling in the columns. (The relevant evidence was on top of the pile until it was destroyed by treasonous opportunist)
SO, according to your logic , the NIST report is BS since the actual tests and forensic evidence do not agree with the report.
Nope,
This is a typical CT'er RED HERRING.
The towers DID withstand the impact.
Except for the blocked stairways in WTC 1 (which IS evidence that the buildings were NOT designed for an aircraft impact) , there was plenty of time for all occupants to evacuate the building.
The designers did NOT say that the towers could burn indefinately after the impact and still remain standing.
Arthur
This is a typical CT'er RED HERRING.
The towers DID withstand the impact.
Except for the blocked stairways in WTC 1 (which IS evidence that the buildings were NOT designed for an aircraft impact) , there was plenty of time for all occupants to evacuate the building.
The designers did NOT say that the towers could burn indefinately after the impact and still remain standing.
Arthur
I'm wondering if I'm the only one who thinks that a per story crush model is physically wrong because the underlying story can only provide an opposite reaction force to crush the story if there is a small movement of that story.
ps. And I'm not convinced that the wtc structure is so extremely special that there appears plastic bifurcation
ps. And I'm not convinced that the wtc structure is so extremely special that there appears plastic bifurcation
reasonless
Why, yes I do. Without any evidence that calculations or evaluations were done it is just a CLAIM.
Why, yes I do. Without any evidence that calculations or evaluations were done it is just a CLAIM.
You believe the NIST report without any forensic evidences backing up temperatures, buckling or trusses pulling in the columns. (The relevant evidence was on top of the pile until it was destroyed by treasonous opportunist)
SO, according to your logic , the NIST report is BS since the actual tests and forensic evidence do not agree with the report.
NIST put REAMS of test data, computer studies and evidence evaluations in their reports. I don't "believe" anything, NIST has shown that their analysis is correct(given the limits of scientific investigation) and I ACCEPT their conclusions because of their careful documentation and the logic of their arguements. To say the tests and evidence does not support their conclusions is not only a lie, but a very stupid(as well as ignorant, unsupportable and politically motivated) lie. NIST's conclusions stand unchallenged by the ignorant masses of uneducated and niave CTers, I expect that to remain true given the low quality of even the better members scientific abilities.
Grumpy
QUOTE
You have to have proof that Skilling is telling the truth with the study.
Why, yes I do. Without any evidence that calculations or evaluations were done it is just a CLAIM.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You have to have proof that Skilling is telling the truth with the study. |
Why, yes I do. Without any evidence that calculations or evaluations were done it is just a CLAIM.
You believe the NIST report without any forensic evidences backing up temperatures, buckling or trusses pulling in the columns. (The relevant evidence was on top of the pile until it was destroyed by treasonous opportunist)
SO, according to your logic , the NIST report is BS since the actual tests and forensic evidence do not agree with the report.
NIST put REAMS of test data, computer studies and evidence evaluations in their reports. I don't "believe" anything, NIST has shown that their analysis is correct(given the limits of scientific investigation) and I ACCEPT their conclusions because of their careful documentation and the logic of their arguements. To say the tests and evidence does not support their conclusions is not only a lie, but a very stupid(as well as ignorant, unsupportable and politically motivated) lie. NIST's conclusions stand unchallenged by the ignorant masses of uneducated and niave CTers, I expect that to remain true given the low quality of even the better members scientific abilities.
Grumpy
einsteen
The "per story" simplification is not an accurate description of the events in either tower. Other than at collapse initiation there is ample evidence that the outer frame did not participate in ANY crushing or resistence at all, but was bypassed and pushed aside as the floors collapsed. Due to the limits of the floor connections, once they failed there was no mechanism for any opposite reaction force to be generated or applied to the falling rubble, thus talk of the resistence or "springiness" of those frame members is useless and misleading.
Math calculations "Homogenize" through simplification to the point of being entirely unrepresentative of the actual event. Thus, while useful in setting upper and lower limits and average energies are in no way a depiction of the actual sequence of events.
Narrative depictions SUPPORTED by math are much better at describing real events. Adding complexity to the math(super computers and simulations) can increase the usefulness of those calculations, but only if the computations are correctly directed by accurate narrative and observed events.
Grumpy
QUOTE
I'm wondering if I'm the only one who thinks that a per story crush model is physically wrong because the underlying story can only provide an opposite reaction force to crush the story if there is a small movement of that story.
The "per story" simplification is not an accurate description of the events in either tower. Other than at collapse initiation there is ample evidence that the outer frame did not participate in ANY crushing or resistence at all, but was bypassed and pushed aside as the floors collapsed. Due to the limits of the floor connections, once they failed there was no mechanism for any opposite reaction force to be generated or applied to the falling rubble, thus talk of the resistence or "springiness" of those frame members is useless and misleading.
Math calculations "Homogenize" through simplification to the point of being entirely unrepresentative of the actual event. Thus, while useful in setting upper and lower limits and average energies are in no way a depiction of the actual sequence of events.
Narrative depictions SUPPORTED by math are much better at describing real events. Adding complexity to the math(super computers and simulations) can increase the usefulness of those calculations, but only if the computations are correctly directed by accurate narrative and observed events.
Grumpy
Einsteen/Grumpy:
I dont see much point in setting up a model that simply follows some observable physical events, and guesses at other non-visible events, and is then declared to be proof of how something happened. (In the case of the NIST WTC collapse initiation model, one of the non-visible events I am referring to would be the removal of some thermal insulation by the aircraft impacts.)
I much prefer to set up a model based on sound physical principles and known physical quantities such as mass, height, density, etc, and let the model run to completion so-to-speak. In this way you can see if your model PREDICTS the course of events AFTER the initial conditions are established. Thus I believe the collapse calculations I and others have done can be tested by seeing how well they predict the observed collapse times, debris distribution, concrete comminution, etc.
The NIST model, on the other hand, appears to make no predictions other than "a global collapse SHOULD have occurred." Since we know there are a myriad ways that a collapse could have started, the fact that NIST has opted for ONE particular mechanism is not of itself PROOF that it is the only possible, or indeed the most probable, mechanism. Thus I would say the NIST "model" is not a scientific THEORY at all since it is not capable of being verified or negated. It is rather one possible "story", but not necessarily THE correct story. For example, it could be possible that the removal of thermal insulation was NOT a factor because chemical effects (NOT included in the NIST model) have been ignored - chemical effects that would have caused LOCAL hot spots, zinc embrittlement, stress corrosion cracking, etc.
I dont see much point in setting up a model that simply follows some observable physical events, and guesses at other non-visible events, and is then declared to be proof of how something happened. (In the case of the NIST WTC collapse initiation model, one of the non-visible events I am referring to would be the removal of some thermal insulation by the aircraft impacts.)
I much prefer to set up a model based on sound physical principles and known physical quantities such as mass, height, density, etc, and let the model run to completion so-to-speak. In this way you can see if your model PREDICTS the course of events AFTER the initial conditions are established. Thus I believe the collapse calculations I and others have done can be tested by seeing how well they predict the observed collapse times, debris distribution, concrete comminution, etc.
The NIST model, on the other hand, appears to make no predictions other than "a global collapse SHOULD have occurred." Since we know there are a myriad ways that a collapse could have started, the fact that NIST has opted for ONE particular mechanism is not of itself PROOF that it is the only possible, or indeed the most probable, mechanism. Thus I would say the NIST "model" is not a scientific THEORY at all since it is not capable of being verified or negated. It is rather one possible "story", but not necessarily THE correct story. For example, it could be possible that the removal of thermal insulation was NOT a factor because chemical effects (NOT included in the NIST model) have been ignored - chemical effects that would have caused LOCAL hot spots, zinc embrittlement, stress corrosion cracking, etc.
BUt Grumpy, do you then also agree that a 1d collapse model wouldn't work in reality, because a 1d model has no floors that can funnel etc. If you then want to proof a global collapse, assuming the NIST is right with their initiation, you have to modify your analytical model and have to proof that your model is the right one.
But I don't think a 3d model would add anything to it because isn't a 1d model a good first order approximation...
But I don't think a 3d model would add anything to it because isn't a 1d model a good first order approximation...
Neu-Fonze you mean in fact a model based on so-called first physical principles ?
And I always thought that your E1 model was also based on observation because we
saw a demolition wave from top to down. Btw I agree 100% with the fact that a 0.5GJ value is
really the energy to crush the weakest stories if you place such a story on ground zero with
the collapsing layer of mass on top...
And I always thought that your E1 model was also based on observation because we
saw a demolition wave from top to down. Btw I agree 100% with the fact that a 0.5GJ value is
really the energy to crush the weakest stories if you place such a story on ground zero with
the collapsing layer of mass on top...
chemical effects like spray on rocket fuel, NF?
QUOTE (einsteen+Jun 21 2007, 06:14 PM)
I'm wondering if I'm the only one who thinks that a per story crush model is physically wrong because the underlying story can only provide an opposite reaction force to crush the story if there is a small movement of that story.
One advantage of the continuum model with homogenized resistance forces is precisely that it isn't a per-story model. It is a per unit length model, if you wish, where the unit length is arbitrary and changes nothing to the calculation. You could choose yards, microns, miles or meters. It is also consistent with the idea that some energy is being dissipated some distance ahead of the accretion front. You can regard the energy (per unit length) that the model considers to be dissipated exactly at the crushing front to represent an average over the resistive forces roughly at that height in the tower and averaged over the whole footprint area. This way, even the tilt of the upper block is covered. Further, the ejection ratio k_out accounts for the expelled perimeter columns and F_b sets a conservative upper bound on the average structural resistance.
One advantage of the continuum model with homogenized resistance forces is precisely that it isn't a per-story model. It is a per unit length model, if you wish, where the unit length is arbitrary and changes nothing to the calculation. You could choose yards, microns, miles or meters. It is also consistent with the idea that some energy is being dissipated some distance ahead of the accretion front. You can regard the energy (per unit length) that the model considers to be dissipated exactly at the crushing front to represent an average over the resistive forces roughly at that height in the tower and averaged over the whole footprint area. This way, even the tilt of the upper block is covered. Further, the ejection ratio k_out accounts for the expelled perimeter columns and F_b sets a conservative upper bound on the average structural resistance.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jun 21 2007, 07:43 PM)
But I don't think a 3d model would add anything to it because isn't a 1d model a good first order approximation...
Yes. And NEU-FONZE recently posted regarding the various tests that such a model can then subjected to. In summary, the B & V crush-down equation, with the additional energy consumptions of comminution and air movement, as in the BLGB paper, gives a very good agreement with the measured times for crush-down to complete, determined by two independent means, for WTC 1.
Yes. And NEU-FONZE recently posted regarding the various tests that such a model can then subjected to. In summary, the B & V crush-down equation, with the additional energy consumptions of comminution and air movement, as in the BLGB paper, gives a very good agreement with the measured times for crush-down to complete, determined by two independent means, for WTC 1.
Einsteen:
When it comes to the application of the scientific method to something as complex as the collapse of a building, I dont think you can start completely from "first priciples" - you have to limit the possibilities to the visual and physical evidence. But in the case of the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, even this evidence is sketchy at best... And since we can't re-build a couple of World Trade Center Towers and wire them up with sensors and cameras we have to resort to mathematical modelling of some sort.
Newton:
Well ammonium perchlorate added to the thermal insulation is how I would do it IF I was an evil doer. (Which I can assure you I am NOT). However, it IS possible that all the carbon-based combustibles, PVC, zinc, aluminum, etc, MIMICKED ammonium perchlorate decomposition. AP and PVC both generate copious quantities of hydrochloric acid gas when heated to about 300 deg C. PVC is NASTY stuff to have in building fires.... I know, I watched the famous PLASTIMET fire here in Hamilton. That was mostly PVC burning....
When it comes to the application of the scientific method to something as complex as the collapse of a building, I dont think you can start completely from "first priciples" - you have to limit the possibilities to the visual and physical evidence. But in the case of the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, even this evidence is sketchy at best... And since we can't re-build a couple of World Trade Center Towers and wire them up with sensors and cameras we have to resort to mathematical modelling of some sort.
Newton:
Well ammonium perchlorate added to the thermal insulation is how I would do it IF I was an evil doer. (Which I can assure you I am NOT). However, it IS possible that all the carbon-based combustibles, PVC, zinc, aluminum, etc, MIMICKED ammonium perchlorate decomposition. AP and PVC both generate copious quantities of hydrochloric acid gas when heated to about 300 deg C. PVC is NASTY stuff to have in building fires.... I know, I watched the famous PLASTIMET fire here in Hamilton. That was mostly PVC burning....
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 21 2007, 12:40 PM)
[...]
This can be written thus
m*dv/dt -V*dm/dt + mg = 0
[...]
[12b] v*dm/dt + m*dv/dt - mg = 0
Let us reverse the spatial coordinate “(1 - lambda)z” so that positive z increments correspond to upward displacements (as is the case in the rocket equation [1]) and let us also reverse dm so that positive variations in mass correspond to mass ejection rather than accretion. [...]
I made two mistakes here. All three terms in the first equation must be positive. Also, positive dm is better regarded as being always a mass increase of the rocket (or tower block). It is sufficient to reverse the sign of dt to express time reversal. The rocket equation is thus recovered exactly. The rest of my interpretation seems OK.
This can be written thus
m*dv/dt -V*dm/dt + mg = 0
[...]
[12b] v*dm/dt + m*dv/dt - mg = 0
Let us reverse the spatial coordinate “(1 - lambda)z” so that positive z increments correspond to upward displacements (as is the case in the rocket equation [1]) and let us also reverse dm so that positive variations in mass correspond to mass ejection rather than accretion. [...]
I made two mistakes here. All three terms in the first equation must be positive. Also, positive dm is better regarded as being always a mass increase of the rocket (or tower block). It is sufficient to reverse the sign of dt to express time reversal. The rocket equation is thus recovered exactly. The rest of my interpretation seems OK.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 21 2007, 08:51 PM)
The rocket equation is thus recovered exactly.
Amazing!
anti-rocket science!
Well, time-reversed rocket science. So this puts paid to the troofer argument that the crush-down equation has not be tested against reality enough. How many rockets have been launched?
Well, time-reversed rocket science. So this puts paid to the troofer argument that the crush-down equation has not be tested against reality enough. How many rockets have been launched?
NEU-FONZE
First order APPROXIMATION. It's written right in the nomenclature.
Though I do not think NIST is necessarily 100% correct, it at least has made a very good attempt(again, given the limitations of the evidence) and is much more an accurate narrative than any math model which can be solved by normal humans(I don't have access to a Cray, do you???). So just as in Fluid dynamics, etc. ALL purely mathematical treatments from original data may give you fairly accurate limits(times, energies, accelerations) but have LITTLE OR NO predictive abilities when talking about the many discrete events that make up the whole. In fact, the more "cycles" of calculation involved, the less able to predict those methods will have and the more any predictions that come out of the calculations will diverge from the observed reality(chaos or "butterfly" effect).
What NIST has accomplished is a fairly accurate narrative, backed up by mathematical calculation. This, while it has limits, is much more of a detailed description of events than any pure mathematical model you or I could possibly calculate in our lifetimes.
In the case of, say, crush up/down, mathematics gives only the crudest approximations of the actual event. It completely ignores the fact(supported by the visual and other evidence) that the floors did pancake, removing their support, and that the outer frame did not participate in any crushing at all(other than at initial collapse) and instead homogenizes the forces into E1, intended to represent the energy required to buckle one floor. Thus E1 turns out to be the crudest of approximations and sheds little light on the actual sequence of events.
First order APPROXIMATION. It's written right in the nomenclature.
Though I do not think NIST is necessarily 100% correct, it at least has made a very good attempt(again, given the limitations of the evidence) and is much more an accurate narrative than any math model which can be solved by normal humans(I don't have access to a Cray, do you???). So just as in Fluid dynamics, etc. ALL purely mathematical treatments from original data may give you fairly accurate limits(times, energies, accelerations) but have LITTLE OR NO predictive abilities when talking about the many discrete events that make up the whole. In fact, the more "cycles" of calculation involved, the less able to predict those methods will have and the more any predictions that come out of the calculations will diverge from the observed reality(chaos or "butterfly" effect).
What NIST has accomplished is a fairly accurate narrative, backed up by mathematical calculation. This, while it has limits, is much more of a detailed description of events than any pure mathematical model you or I could possibly calculate in our lifetimes.
In the case of, say, crush up/down, mathematics gives only the crudest approximations of the actual event. It completely ignores the fact(supported by the visual and other evidence) that the floors did pancake, removing their support, and that the outer frame did not participate in any crushing at all(other than at initial collapse) and instead homogenizes the forces into E1, intended to represent the energy required to buckle one floor. Thus E1 turns out to be the crudest of approximations and sheds little light on the actual sequence of events.
The NIST model, on the other hand, appears to make no predictions other than "a global collapse SHOULD have occurred." Since we know there are a myriad ways that a collapse could have started, the fact that NIST has opted for ONE particular mechanism is not of itself PROOF that it is the only possible, or indeed the most probable, mechanism.
Au contrare. The NIST model, as far as it goes, is indeed the most probable mechanism that can be arrived at given the limits of the evidence. But even they are constrained by the law of diminishing return. That NIST had the good sense to stop at collapse initiation shows they recognized the limits on either technique(or even both together) to describe such complex and chaotic events.
When 200+ of the best scientists in the world put that much work into their investigation, using the best equipment and techniques available, and with all the available evidence at their disposal, the results, while not perfect and always subject to falsification given new evidence or understanding, is as good as mankind is capable of. You can argue with some little point here or a niggle there but it will take massive effort and huge amounts of contrary evidence to convince any real scientist that they are wrong on the major points. Is it the only mechanism, no, but it IS the most probable(unless you or someone else can show otherwise, good luck with that).
einsteen
As I pointed out above, no mathematical model can even come close and has little predictive value, real events and sequences must be factored in. But you will soon reach a point of diminishing return where ever more calculations give little or no improvements in accuracy.
Edited to add: newton, aren't you up past your bed-time?
wow. mature sense of humour. you showed me what for.
QUOTE
Thus I believe the collapse calculations I and others have done can be tested by seeing how well they predict the observed collapse times, debris distribution, concrete comminution, etc.
First order APPROXIMATION. It's written right in the nomenclature.
Though I do not think NIST is necessarily 100% correct, it at least has made a very good attempt(again, given the limitations of the evidence) and is much more an accurate narrative than any math model which can be solved by normal humans(I don't have access to a Cray, do you???). So just as in Fluid dynamics, etc. ALL purely mathematical treatments from original data may give you fairly accurate limits(times, energies, accelerations) but have LITTLE OR NO predictive abilities when talking about the many discrete events that make up the whole. In fact, the more "cycles" of calculation involved, the less able to predict those methods will have and the more any predictions that come out of the calculations will diverge from the observed reality(chaos or "butterfly" effect).
What NIST has accomplished is a fairly accurate narrative, backed up by mathematical calculation. This, while it has limits, is much more of a detailed description of events than any pure mathematical model you or I could possibly calculate in our lifetimes.
In the case of, say, crush up/down, mathematics gives only the crudest approximations of the actual event. It completely ignores the fact(supported by the visual and other evidence) that the floors did pancake, removing their support, and that the outer frame did not participate in any crushing at all(other than at initial collapse) and instead homogenizes the forces into E1, intended to represent the energy required to buckle one floor. Thus E1 turns out to be the crudest of approximations and sheds little light on the actual sequence of events.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Thus I believe the collapse calculations I and others have done can be tested by seeing how well they predict the observed collapse times, debris distribution, concrete comminution, etc. |
First order APPROXIMATION. It's written right in the nomenclature.
Though I do not think NIST is necessarily 100% correct, it at least has made a very good attempt(again, given the limitations of the evidence) and is much more an accurate narrative than any math model which can be solved by normal humans(I don't have access to a Cray, do you???). So just as in Fluid dynamics, etc. ALL purely mathematical treatments from original data may give you fairly accurate limits(times, energies, accelerations) but have LITTLE OR NO predictive abilities when talking about the many discrete events that make up the whole. In fact, the more "cycles" of calculation involved, the less able to predict those methods will have and the more any predictions that come out of the calculations will diverge from the observed reality(chaos or "butterfly" effect).
What NIST has accomplished is a fairly accurate narrative, backed up by mathematical calculation. This, while it has limits, is much more of a detailed description of events than any pure mathematical model you or I could possibly calculate in our lifetimes.
In the case of, say, crush up/down, mathematics gives only the crudest approximations of the actual event. It completely ignores the fact(supported by the visual and other evidence) that the floors did pancake, removing their support, and that the outer frame did not participate in any crushing at all(other than at initial collapse) and instead homogenizes the forces into E1, intended to represent the energy required to buckle one floor. Thus E1 turns out to be the crudest of approximations and sheds little light on the actual sequence of events.
The NIST model, on the other hand, appears to make no predictions other than "a global collapse SHOULD have occurred." Since we know there are a myriad ways that a collapse could have started, the fact that NIST has opted for ONE particular mechanism is not of itself PROOF that it is the only possible, or indeed the most probable, mechanism.
Au contrare. The NIST model, as far as it goes, is indeed the most probable mechanism that can be arrived at given the limits of the evidence. But even they are constrained by the law of diminishing return. That NIST had the good sense to stop at collapse initiation shows they recognized the limits on either technique(or even both together) to describe such complex and chaotic events.
When 200+ of the best scientists in the world put that much work into their investigation, using the best equipment and techniques available, and with all the available evidence at their disposal, the results, while not perfect and always subject to falsification given new evidence or understanding, is as good as mankind is capable of. You can argue with some little point here or a niggle there but it will take massive effort and huge amounts of contrary evidence to convince any real scientist that they are wrong on the major points. Is it the only mechanism, no, but it IS the most probable(unless you or someone else can show otherwise, good luck with that).
einsteen
QUOTE
BUt Grumpy, do you then also agree that a 1d collapse model wouldn't work in reality, because a 1d model has no floors that can funnel etc. If you then want to proof a global collapse, assuming the NIST is right with their initiation, you have to modify your analytical model and have to proof that your model is the right one.
But I don't think a 3d model would add anything to it because isn't a 1d model a good first order approximation...
But I don't think a 3d model would add anything to it because isn't a 1d model a good first order approximation...
As I pointed out above, no mathematical model can even come close and has little predictive value, real events and sequences must be factored in. But you will soon reach a point of diminishing return where ever more calculations give little or no improvements in accuracy.
Hi Pierre Normand, Grumpy, NF et al.
As Grumpy has just pointred out , amongst many other ACTUAL OBSERVABLE PHENOMENA/VARIABLES to do with 9/11 tower collapses, the INNER 'systems and the OUTER systems were EFFECTIVELY SEPARATED from each other for most of the actual collapse process.
The inner tube and floor material was mostly CONTAINED and FUNNELED straight down while the 'reaction' on the LOWER-PART'S OUTER walls caused them to 'peel OUT' for the most part.
In which case, again, as Grumpy points out, the energies treated in the reverse-rocket scenario should not involve the 'crushing' of the 'rocket CASING' (for the most part)...as this was simply 'shed' or 'left behind' and NOT 'taken along' with the overall 'rocket body' AS SUCH.
Perhaps the equations should be a hybrid of BOTH 'rocket' AND 'BULLET-from-CASING' type...where the UPPER block was the 'bullet' and the outer tube was the 'SHED casing'?
I also stress again that the design of the towers was to maximise RENTABLE EMPTY SPACE as free of interior columns as possible....radical and unlike previous 'dense' interior spaces between outer walls and cores.
Since there was LITTLE to slow/absorb plane impacts and fire/fule effects BEFORE the core is reached, Skilling and others could NOT base their 'assumed robustness/survivability' on anything but wishful thinking. Since their so-called 'cores' were THEMSELVES vulnerable buildings within vulnerable buildings without any masonary/fireproofing or robust connections that could withstand the impact of such large/fast airliner impacts, fuel and prolonged UNFOUGHT and uncontrolled fires that even Robertson and Skilling themselves knew could NOT be 'proofed' against by ANY design.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
As Grumpy has just pointred out , amongst many other ACTUAL OBSERVABLE PHENOMENA/VARIABLES to do with 9/11 tower collapses, the INNER 'systems and the OUTER systems were EFFECTIVELY SEPARATED from each other for most of the actual collapse process.
The inner tube and floor material was mostly CONTAINED and FUNNELED straight down while the 'reaction' on the LOWER-PART'S OUTER walls caused them to 'peel OUT' for the most part.
In which case, again, as Grumpy points out, the energies treated in the reverse-rocket scenario should not involve the 'crushing' of the 'rocket CASING' (for the most part)...as this was simply 'shed' or 'left behind' and NOT 'taken along' with the overall 'rocket body' AS SUCH.
Perhaps the equations should be a hybrid of BOTH 'rocket' AND 'BULLET-from-CASING' type...where the UPPER block was the 'bullet' and the outer tube was the 'SHED casing'?
I also stress again that the design of the towers was to maximise RENTABLE EMPTY SPACE as free of interior columns as possible....radical and unlike previous 'dense' interior spaces between outer walls and cores.
Since there was LITTLE to slow/absorb plane impacts and fire/fule effects BEFORE the core is reached, Skilling and others could NOT base their 'assumed robustness/survivability' on anything but wishful thinking. Since their so-called 'cores' were THEMSELVES vulnerable buildings within vulnerable buildings without any masonary/fireproofing or robust connections that could withstand the impact of such large/fast airliner impacts, fuel and prolonged UNFOUGHT and uncontrolled fires that even Robertson and Skilling themselves knew could NOT be 'proofed' against by ANY design.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jun 21 2007, 10:38 PM)
In which case, again, as Grumpy points out, the energies treated in the reverse-rocket scenario should not involve the 'crushing' of the 'rocket CASING' (for the most part)...as this was simply 'shed' or 'left behind' and NOT 'taken along' with the overall 'rocket body' AS SUCH.
Yes. For WTC 1 this is essentially correct. In setting up the reverse-time rocket crush-down the mass of the exterior walls ought to be (largely) excluded. This will give a (mostly) correct estimate of crush-down time, etc.
However, for WTC 2, the upper block lent over so far, rotated and translated laterally (I think), that it is difficult to see what corrections need to be made to the parameters of the one-dimensional equation to account for the long crush-down time of 15 seconds. One possibility is that about half of the upper block broke off at about 4+ seconds to fall freely on its own.
Anyway, glad to read you are recovering. Take it easy for now. Are there good radio programs in your part of Oz?
Yes. For WTC 1 this is essentially correct. In setting up the reverse-time rocket crush-down the mass of the exterior walls ought to be (largely) excluded. This will give a (mostly) correct estimate of crush-down time, etc.
However, for WTC 2, the upper block lent over so far, rotated and translated laterally (I think), that it is difficult to see what corrections need to be made to the parameters of the one-dimensional equation to account for the long crush-down time of 15 seconds. One possibility is that about half of the upper block broke off at about 4+ seconds to fall freely on its own.
Anyway, glad to read you are recovering. Take it easy for now. Are there good radio programs in your part of Oz?
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 21 2007, 11:00 PM)
Yes. For WTC 1 this is essentially correct. In setting up the reverse-time rocket crush-down the mass of the exterior walls ought to be (largely) excluded. This will give a (mostly) correct estimate of crush-down time, etc.
However, for WTC 2, the upper block lent over so far, rotated and translated laterally (I think), that it is difficult to see what corrections need to be made to the parameters of the one-dimensional equation to account for the long crush-down time of 15 seconds. One possibility is that about half of the upper block broke off at about 4+ seconds to fall freely on its own.
Anyway, glad to read you are recovering. Take it easy for now. Are there good radio programs in your part of Oz?
Hi DBB!
Yes, it will be interesting to estimate how much actual top section HIT the INNER 'tube' structure just below the impact levels, and with how much force thereby.
The fact that Sthe 'cores' stood for a time AFTER the internal collapse will also affect the actual considerations.
The EXTENT to which each core was damaged (and hence the amount of energy absorbed by the respective cores WOULD affect the rate of internal collapse. So the 15-second time may be due to internal resistance being longer to a less massive and much delayed 'debris plug' becuase of that extra 'shedding' and that extra rotational energy being sent to the OUTER WALLS rather than straight down.
Cheers!
RC.
.
However, for WTC 2, the upper block lent over so far, rotated and translated laterally (I think), that it is difficult to see what corrections need to be made to the parameters of the one-dimensional equation to account for the long crush-down time of 15 seconds. One possibility is that about half of the upper block broke off at about 4+ seconds to fall freely on its own.
Anyway, glad to read you are recovering. Take it easy for now. Are there good radio programs in your part of Oz?
Hi DBB!
Yes, it will be interesting to estimate how much actual top section HIT the INNER 'tube' structure just below the impact levels, and with how much force thereby.
The fact that Sthe 'cores' stood for a time AFTER the internal collapse will also affect the actual considerations.
The EXTENT to which each core was damaged (and hence the amount of energy absorbed by the respective cores WOULD affect the rate of internal collapse. So the 15-second time may be due to internal resistance being longer to a less massive and much delayed 'debris plug' becuase of that extra 'shedding' and that extra rotational energy being sent to the OUTER WALLS rather than straight down.
Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jun 21 2007, 11:44 PM)
The fact that Sthe[sic] 'cores' stood for a time AFTER the internal collapse will also affect the actual considerations.
For WTC 1 the temporary spire is so small that neglecting it does not appear to matter.
For WTC 2 the temporary spire is of unknown size, but about 62 stories high. It is unknown in that it appears to be at least 3 column lines, each with at least 6 core columns. It is completely unclear, at least to me, how many of the core floors survived along with these columns. So one would have to attempt to estimate this mass loss as well.
Now we are stuck with too many parameters for the actual measurements. So all I could do would be to provide a line in (top block mass loss, core mass survival) space which agrees with the 15 second crush-down time.
Just now, doing the calculations seems pointless, since, intuitively, some reasonable pairs would emerge from the calculations. Ok, then what does one do with such pairs?
For WTC 1 the temporary spire is so small that neglecting it does not appear to matter.
For WTC 2 the temporary spire is of unknown size, but about 62 stories high. It is unknown in that it appears to be at least 3 column lines, each with at least 6 core columns. It is completely unclear, at least to me, how many of the core floors survived along with these columns. So one would have to attempt to estimate this mass loss as well.
Now we are stuck with too many parameters for the actual measurements. So all I could do would be to provide a line in (top block mass loss, core mass survival) space which agrees with the 15 second crush-down time.
Just now, doing the calculations seems pointless, since, intuitively, some reasonable pairs would emerge from the calculations. Ok, then what does one do with such pairs?
remember this type of proper thinking?
new skool isn't always better than old skool.
"organic" marriage, eh? kinda like concrete on steel pans with steel loops sticking up into the concrete?
an entire WTC tower cannot be built.
however, a rough frame scale , or model of only five storeys could solve a lot.
and, several very small models could demonstrate the mechanisms of the collapse.
can ANYONE build something(a physical model) that can crush itself with less than ten percent of it's mass? (something that will stand in a (scaled down) hurricane, that is.)
new skool isn't always better than old skool.
"organic" marriage, eh? kinda like concrete on steel pans with steel loops sticking up into the concrete?
an entire WTC tower cannot be built.
however, a rough frame scale , or model of only five storeys could solve a lot.
and, several very small models could demonstrate the mechanisms of the collapse.
can ANYONE build something(a physical model) that can crush itself with less than ten percent of it's mass? (something that will stand in a (scaled down) hurricane, that is.)
QUOTE (newton+Jun 22 2007, 12:44 AM)
... several very small models could demonstrate the mechanisms of the collapse.
Well, I suggested physics lab rail cars with a pulley and some weights.
But more fun by far is to use model rockets! See Pierre-Normand's posts about crush-down being time-reversed rocketry...
Edited to add: newton, aren't you up past your bed-time?
Well, I suggested physics lab rail cars with a pulley and some weights.
But more fun by far is to use model rockets! See Pierre-Normand's posts about crush-down being time-reversed rocketry...
Edited to add: newton, aren't you up past your bed-time?
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 22 2007, 12:53 AM)
Edited to add: newton, aren't you up past your bed-time?
wow. mature sense of humour. you showed me what for.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 22 2007, 01:02 AM)
wow.
I thought you were in Britain. My mistake.
I thought you were in Britain. My mistake.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 22 2007, 12:44 AM)
remember this type of proper thinking?
new skool isn't always better than old skool.
"organic" marriage, eh? kinda like concrete on steel pans with steel loops sticking up into the concrete?
an entire WTC tower cannot be built.
however, a rough frame scale , or model of only five storeys could solve a lot.
and, several very small models could demonstrate the mechanisms of the collapse.
can ANYONE build something(a physical model) that can crush itself with less than ten percent of it's mass? (something that will stand in a (scaled down) hurricane, that is.)
Hi newto!
I bolded that bit about 'crushing itself.
I assume you have understood by now that it was NOT the WHOLE BUILDING that crushed itself? Mostly only the top section and the interior structures.
Much of the outer part never was involved in that 'crushing'.
So it's the top section INCLUDING the VERY HEAVY TOP HAT STRUCTURE that moved down INITIALLY (whatever % all that was) ...and THEN ADDED TO ITSELF the succeeding floors on its way through them INDIVIDUALLY.
So in fact, it was initial top (including hat truss structure) crushing INDIVIDUAL FLOORS successively...and NOT all at once as you seem to be suggesting.
And this was allowed to happen because?....the design was INADEQUATE in connecting the floors to the 'tube' walls so that the whole building COULD react AS A WHOLE in that overwhelmingly DYNAMIC (and not as-intended STATIC) situation....which it could NOT POSSIBLY do at any stage after the initial local collapse got started.
Oh, and and a model of only 5 floors would not produce the STACK EFFECT as in the real things.
The fast-flowing inlet/internal/outlet air/gases are exacerbated the TALLER the stack....and what a humongous stacks they were for uncontrolled and widespread fires! The locally cyclonic speed/swirls of gases muct have been horrific....just as Skilling feared.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
new skool isn't always better than old skool.
"organic" marriage, eh? kinda like concrete on steel pans with steel loops sticking up into the concrete?
an entire WTC tower cannot be built.
however, a rough frame scale , or model of only five storeys could solve a lot.
and, several very small models could demonstrate the mechanisms of the collapse.
can ANYONE build something(a physical model) that can crush itself with less than ten percent of it's mass? (something that will stand in a (scaled down) hurricane, that is.)
Hi newto!
I bolded that bit about 'crushing itself.
I assume you have understood by now that it was NOT the WHOLE BUILDING that crushed itself? Mostly only the top section and the interior structures.
Much of the outer part never was involved in that 'crushing'.
So it's the top section INCLUDING the VERY HEAVY TOP HAT STRUCTURE that moved down INITIALLY (whatever % all that was) ...and THEN ADDED TO ITSELF the succeeding floors on its way through them INDIVIDUALLY.
So in fact, it was initial top (including hat truss structure) crushing INDIVIDUAL FLOORS successively...and NOT all at once as you seem to be suggesting.
And this was allowed to happen because?....the design was INADEQUATE in connecting the floors to the 'tube' walls so that the whole building COULD react AS A WHOLE in that overwhelmingly DYNAMIC (and not as-intended STATIC) situation....which it could NOT POSSIBLY do at any stage after the initial local collapse got started.
Oh, and and a model of only 5 floors would not produce the STACK EFFECT as in the real things.
The fast-flowing inlet/internal/outlet air/gases are exacerbated the TALLER the stack....and what a humongous stacks they were for uncontrolled and widespread fires! The locally cyclonic speed/swirls of gases muct have been horrific....just as Skilling feared.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 22 2007, 12:14 AM)
For WTC 1 the temporary spire is so small that neglecting it does not appear to matter.
For WTC 2 the temporary spire is of unknown size, but about 62 stories high. It is unknown in that it appears to be at least 3 column lines, each with at least 6 core columns. It is completely unclear, at least to me, how many of the core floors survived along with these columns. So one would have to attempt to estimate this mass loss as well.
Now we are stuck with too many parameters for the actual measurements. So all I could do would be to provide a line in (top block mass loss, core mass survival) space which agrees with the 15 second crush-down time.
Just now, doing the calculations seems pointless, since, intuitively, some reasonable pairs would emerge from the calculations. Ok, then what does one do with such pairs?
Perhaps the DIFFERENCES between the two tower collapse processes could give clues as to what 'limits/ranges' the variables/equations could have within various possible scenarios that such comparison checks would indicate?
That is, treat the two collapses simultaneously within the SAME equations to see where they DIVERGE significantly enough to show that some CRITICALLY DIFFERENT factor appears ta such and such a time during the collapses shown side-by-side (so to speak)?
RC.
.
For WTC 2 the temporary spire is of unknown size, but about 62 stories high. It is unknown in that it appears to be at least 3 column lines, each with at least 6 core columns. It is completely unclear, at least to me, how many of the core floors survived along with these columns. So one would have to attempt to estimate this mass loss as well.
Now we are stuck with too many parameters for the actual measurements. So all I could do would be to provide a line in (top block mass loss, core mass survival) space which agrees with the 15 second crush-down time.
Just now, doing the calculations seems pointless, since, intuitively, some reasonable pairs would emerge from the calculations. Ok, then what does one do with such pairs?
Perhaps the DIFFERENCES between the two tower collapse processes could give clues as to what 'limits/ranges' the variables/equations could have within various possible scenarios that such comparison checks would indicate?
That is, treat the two collapses simultaneously within the SAME equations to see where they DIVERGE significantly enough to show that some CRITICALLY DIFFERENT factor appears ta such and such a time during the collapses shown side-by-side (so to speak)?
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jun 22 2007, 01:30 AM)
Perhaps the DIFFERENCES between the two tower collapse processes could give clues as to what 'limits/ranges' the variables/equations could have within various possible scenarios that such comparison checks would indicate?
That is, treat the two collapses simultaneously within the SAME equations to see where they DIVERGE significantly enough to show that some CRITICALLY DIFFERENT factor appears ta[sic] such and such a time during the collapses shown side-by-side (so to speak)?
Yes, and I've already done that by using the crush-down equation and the data that NEU-FONZE collected for the first few seconds of each tower. Whatever is critically different, however, can only have occurred once everything disappeared into the dust and smoke. After that, the only measurements are of the approximate crush-down time. These are seismic, in the BLGB paper, and also shagster has used the audio portion of videos to time the end of crush-down.
This analysis works well for WTC 1. For WTC 2 something occurred to significantly slow the collapse. One cannot directly compare the collapse rates for the two towers, because the top blocks differ so significantly in size. Approximately, for the first few seconds, the accelerations for the tops of the towers were:
for WTC 1, (2/3) g,
for WTC 2, (3/4) g.
That is, treat the two collapses simultaneously within the SAME equations to see where they DIVERGE significantly enough to show that some CRITICALLY DIFFERENT factor appears ta[sic] such and such a time during the collapses shown side-by-side (so to speak)?
Yes, and I've already done that by using the crush-down equation and the data that NEU-FONZE collected for the first few seconds of each tower. Whatever is critically different, however, can only have occurred once everything disappeared into the dust and smoke. After that, the only measurements are of the approximate crush-down time. These are seismic, in the BLGB paper, and also shagster has used the audio portion of videos to time the end of crush-down.
This analysis works well for WTC 1. For WTC 2 something occurred to significantly slow the collapse. One cannot directly compare the collapse rates for the two towers, because the top blocks differ so significantly in size. Approximately, for the first few seconds, the accelerations for the tops of the towers were:
for WTC 1, (2/3) g,
for WTC 2, (3/4) g.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 22 2007, 01:15 AM)
I thought you were in Britain. My mistake.
You must have had him mixed up with another Newton.
Sir Isaac is a Britton. This one might be a migrant relative.
You must have had him mixed up with another Newton.
Sir Isaac is a Britton. This one might be a migrant relative.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 22 2007, 01:47 AM)
Yes, and I've already done that by using the crush-down equation and the data that NEU-FONZE collected for the first few seconds of each tower. Whatever is critically different, however, can only have occurred once everything disappeared into the dust and smoke. After that, the only measurements are of the approximate crush-down time. These are seismic, in the BLGB paper, and also shagster has used the audio portion of videos to time the end of crush-down.
This analysis works well for WTC 1. For WTC 2 something occurred to significantly slow the collapse. One cannot directly compare the collapse rates for the two towers, because the top blocks differ so significantly in size. Approximately, for the first few seconds, the accelerations for the tops of the towers were:
for WTC 1, (2/3) g,
for WTC 2, (3/4) g.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant before!
As to possible factors 'within the obscured stages'....
Perhaps the rate of internal floor/equipment collapses was different for each tower....so that in WTC1 the damage from these 'preceded' more quickly the main top 'plug' damage than in WTC2...possibly because the fuel damage in WTC1 was more extensive and further down-shafts/core than the other tower?
Perhaps the rotating top section's hat truss was more vulnerable to dimemberment because of the angled impact of top with 'core'...and thus its energy was more 'spread' outwards than the other tower's falling top?
Would such factors be significant, do you think?
RC.
.
This analysis works well for WTC 1. For WTC 2 something occurred to significantly slow the collapse. One cannot directly compare the collapse rates for the two towers, because the top blocks differ so significantly in size. Approximately, for the first few seconds, the accelerations for the tops of the towers were:
for WTC 1, (2/3) g,
for WTC 2, (3/4) g.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant before!
As to possible factors 'within the obscured stages'....
Perhaps the rate of internal floor/equipment collapses was different for each tower....so that in WTC1 the damage from these 'preceded' more quickly the main top 'plug' damage than in WTC2...possibly because the fuel damage in WTC1 was more extensive and further down-shafts/core than the other tower?
Perhaps the rotating top section's hat truss was more vulnerable to dimemberment because of the angled impact of top with 'core'...and thus its energy was more 'spread' outwards than the other tower's falling top?
Would such factors be significant, do you think?
RC.
.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 22 2007, 12:53 AM)
But more fun by far is to use model rockets! See Pierre-Normand's posts about crush-down being time-reversed rocketry...
My main remaining hurdle is to get the SI-C stage of my Saturn V replica to ignite on hydrated concrete dust instead of liquid oxygen and RP-1. I've already added some iron slag and aluminum oxyde to the dust in order to trigger a time-reversed thermite reaction. No luck so far.
Reverse sonochemistry might be worth trying: I will play some heavy metal LPs backward and see what happens. If this works, I shall post a summary of the experiment yesterday.
My main remaining hurdle is to get the SI-C stage of my Saturn V replica to ignite on hydrated concrete dust instead of liquid oxygen and RP-1. I've already added some iron slag and aluminum oxyde to the dust in order to trigger a time-reversed thermite reaction. No luck so far.
Reverse sonochemistry might be worth trying: I will play some heavy metal LPs backward and see what happens. If this works, I shall post a summary of the experiment yesterday.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 20 2007, 06:45 PM)
On Energy lost via seismic waves versus "other" means of loss
Despite wceliot's marvelous physical intuition, via which we have been informed that shock waves "bounce around" until they're absorbed, I saw no quantitative answer in his writings wrt my questions. Unfortunately, wceliot's intuition fails to generate quantitative expressions and values, but perhaps he has not full warmed up to the lofty (ha!) expectations that abound on this thread.
Unfortunately, I haven't found any good info on this, either, but here are two items of note:
from http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/cl.../magnitude.html
(emphasis mine)
A collapsing wtc building isn't the same as an "earthquake process". However I tend to believe that this quote may imply that energy transferred to the ground from a collapsing WTC will also only have a small fraction of it's Kinetic Energy radiate as seismic waves.
from http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct98...45968.As.r.html
(emphasis mine)
Mostly guessing, but when the author of the quote above says he suspects most energy went into heat and seismic waves, he may not have thought through the "heat" part of it. I wonder if (assuming impact reaches elastic bedrock) whether a large spectrum of vibrational modes exist to carry off the energy, but only certain frequency ranges can result in measurable seismic waves? Thus, most of the energy may initially go into waves, but the 'non-seismic' waves go many miles before hitting aborbing boundaries or otherwise degrading into heat.
I would think that material scientists or engineers would have a good handle on the general question of frequency dependence of energy dissipating waves in solids.
There was a good study of seismic energy regarding the difference between the San Andras vs. New Madrid fault, the energy reacts in different ways determined by the strata though which the energy is transmitted.
The waves travel though the crust until absorbed or more correctly put dissipated.
http://www.ceri.memphis.edu/compendium/enigma.pdf
Despite wceliot's marvelous physical intuition, via which we have been informed that shock waves "bounce around" until they're absorbed, I saw no quantitative answer in his writings wrt my questions. Unfortunately, wceliot's intuition fails to generate quantitative expressions and values, but perhaps he has not full warmed up to the lofty (ha!) expectations that abound on this thread.
Unfortunately, I haven't found any good info on this, either, but here are two items of note:
from http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/cl.../magnitude.html
(emphasis mine)
A collapsing wtc building isn't the same as an "earthquake process". However I tend to believe that this quote may imply that energy transferred to the ground from a collapsing WTC will also only have a small fraction of it's Kinetic Energy radiate as seismic waves.
from http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct98...45968.As.r.html
(emphasis mine)
Mostly guessing, but when the author of the quote above says he suspects most energy went into heat and seismic waves, he may not have thought through the "heat" part of it. I wonder if (assuming impact reaches elastic bedrock) whether a large spectrum of vibrational modes exist to carry off the energy, but only certain frequency ranges can result in measurable seismic waves? Thus, most of the energy may initially go into waves, but the 'non-seismic' waves go many miles before hitting aborbing boundaries or otherwise degrading into heat.
I would think that material scientists or engineers would have a good handle on the general question of frequency dependence of energy dissipating waves in solids.
There was a good study of seismic energy regarding the difference between the San Andras vs. New Madrid fault, the energy reacts in different ways determined by the strata though which the energy is transmitted.
The waves travel though the crust until absorbed or more correctly put dissipated.
http://www.ceri.memphis.edu/compendium/enigma.pdf
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 22 2007, 02:30 AM)
My main remaining hurdle is to get the SI-C stage of my Saturn V replica to ignite on hydrated concrete dust instead of liquid oxygen and RP-1. I've already added some iron slag and aluminum oxyde to the dust in order to trigger a time-reversed thermite reaction. No luck so far.
Reverse sonochemistry might be worth trying: I will play some heavy metal LPs backward and see what happens. If this works, I shall post a summary of the experiment yesterday.
Hehehe. Chuckle chuckle. Thanks for that, Pierre Normand...I needed it!
Seriously now....I wonder what clues/insights can be gleaned from viewing the collapse videos backwards. Would 'discontinuities' become more evident that would indicate where certain factors 'engaged/disengaged' or changed magnitude/direction etc?
Hi Chainsaw!
Cheers all!
RC.
.
Reverse sonochemistry might be worth trying: I will play some heavy metal LPs backward and see what happens. If this works, I shall post a summary of the experiment yesterday.
Hehehe. Chuckle chuckle. Thanks for that, Pierre Normand...I needed it!
Seriously now....I wonder what clues/insights can be gleaned from viewing the collapse videos backwards. Would 'discontinuities' become more evident that would indicate where certain factors 'engaged/disengaged' or changed magnitude/direction etc?
Hi Chainsaw!
Cheers all!
RC.
.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 21 2007, 07:44 PM)
an entire WTC tower cannot be built.
however, a rough frame scale , or model of only five storeys could solve a lot.
and, several very small models could demonstrate the mechanisms of the collapse.
can ANYONE build something(a physical model) that can crush itself with less than ten percent of it's mass? (something that will stand in a (scaled down) hurricane, that is.)
We've discussed this before.
You can't scale gravity.
Arthur
however, a rough frame scale , or model of only five storeys could solve a lot.
and, several very small models could demonstrate the mechanisms of the collapse.
can ANYONE build something(a physical model) that can crush itself with less than ten percent of it's mass? (something that will stand in a (scaled down) hurricane, that is.)
We've discussed this before.
You can't scale gravity.
Arthur
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jun 22 2007, 04:00 AM)
Hehehe. Chuckle chuckle. Thanks for that, Pierre Normand...I needed it!
Hey?!? You just replied to a message of mine I hadn't posted yet! I think we might be pushing this time-reversal research too far.
Hey?!? You just replied to a message of mine I hadn't posted yet! I think we might be pushing this time-reversal research too far.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 22 2007, 01:57 AM)
You must have had him mixed up with another Newton.
Sir Isaac is a Britton. This one might be a migrant relative.
it's probably my british spelling.
i'm canadian, eh. we still use the queen's english, here. zed, not zee, and all that. colour, not color.
Sir Isaac is a Britton. This one might be a migrant relative.
it's probably my british spelling.
i'm canadian, eh. we still use the queen's english, here. zed, not zee, and all that. colour, not color.
Z ee is the American preferd way of calling th 26th letter of the alphabet. In AUst'raian here G'day M'ate In EuRope thats pronounced Zet, COz of latin langauage roots.
That having been z.
Intrested persons would be facinated by the Caligraphic depictions of Italics variations within the countries of Europe to enhance the pronunciation of TRAVel teach yourself an holyday language books
The internet seems to think that italics worth mentioning simply mean slanty fonts.
That having been z.
Intrested persons would be facinated by the Caligraphic depictions of Italics variations within the countries of Europe to enhance the pronunciation of TRAVel teach yourself an holyday language books
The internet seems to think that italics worth mentioning simply mean slanty fonts.
The thing that I have problems with is the fact that if you have a structure and you subject it to a force on the top then that force will be through the whole building, there is no reason to assume that all stories stay intact and that only the one on top crushes and so fort. It's like the discussion we had with Lozenge124 on jref.
And the fact that a structure it the set of sub-structures also doesn't change anything to it because they are really connected with each other.
The only way how this is possible is if there is for example an extreme decrease in E1 values from top to bottom, which cannot be true, or if the stories are demolished from top to down. In that way the energy will concentrate on the weakest link and crush that one. There is absolutely no other way to look at it. Of course I clearly see that the stories down are intact and it goes stepwise from top to bottom, but it is possible to proof mathematically that it could not occur with a gravitational collapse, in a simplified 1d model. Whether it is a continous model or a discrete doesn't matter, the physics is the same.
And the fact that a structure it the set of sub-structures also doesn't change anything to it because they are really connected with each other.
The only way how this is possible is if there is for example an extreme decrease in E1 values from top to bottom, which cannot be true, or if the stories are demolished from top to down. In that way the energy will concentrate on the weakest link and crush that one. There is absolutely no other way to look at it. Of course I clearly see that the stories down are intact and it goes stepwise from top to bottom, but it is possible to proof mathematically that it could not occur with a gravitational collapse, in a simplified 1d model. Whether it is a continous model or a discrete doesn't matter, the physics is the same.
NEU-FONZE
exactly. i said this months ago
QUOTE
Thus I would say the NIST "model" is not a scientific THEORY at all since it is not capable of being verified or negated.
exactly. i said this months ago
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