QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 08:05 AM)
Here's one from a google search on "fire steel truss collapse".
Here's three more from FireRescue Magazine
June 2005:
These didn't hit your front page?
Maybe that's because it happens so often that it isn't considered "news".
Steel truss structures fail all the time. Ask any fireman.
Steel building (columns and beams) not just steel trusses.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 10 2007, 12:37 PM)
The public did not have access to the site and it was cleansed by private contractors. The proof should be on those that conducted the (non)investigation of the crime scene to prove explosive were not used in a collapse that looked just like a CD.
What do you assume the point of a CD on WTC 7 was?
Oh, and if you are employed by a private contractor are you not still a member of the PUBLIC?
Do you think they let it burn for 7 hours just to SHOW OFF ?
What do you think they would have done if material from the WTC 1 collapse hadn't set the WTC 7 building on fire?
Arthur
What do you assume the point of a CD on WTC 7 was?
Oh, and if you are employed by a private contractor are you not still a member of the PUBLIC?
Do you think they let it burn for 7 hours just to SHOW OFF ?
What do you think they would have done if material from the WTC 1 collapse hadn't set the WTC 7 building on fire?
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 10 2007, 09:48 AM)
What do you assume the point of a CD on WTC 7 was?
Oh, and if you are employed by a private contractor are you not still a member of the PUBLIC?
Arthur
Not if they have a Non Disclosure Agreements (similar to the US mercenary army, blackwater):
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=19
Oh, and if you are employed by a private contractor are you not still a member of the PUBLIC?
Arthur
Not if they have a Non Disclosure Agreements (similar to the US mercenary army, blackwater):
QUOTE
Controlled Demolition Incorporated’s in-house explosive and anti-terrorist database provides information necessary to respond to questions raised by the most discerning of clients on an absolutely confidential basis.
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=19
Grumpy
obviously?.... Yes everything the government tells you is obviously true, they never lie. that why its so obvious.
"the best hypothesis [fire/debris-damage-caused collapse] has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. (FEMA, 2002, chapter 5; emphasis added.)"
QUOTE
WTC 7 obviously fell because of damage and fires caused by the fall of tower 1
obviously?.... Yes everything the government tells you is obviously true, they never lie. that why its so obvious.
"the best hypothesis [fire/debris-damage-caused collapse] has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. (FEMA, 2002, chapter 5; emphasis added.)"
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jun 10 2007, 12:56 PM)
Not if they have a Non Disclosure Agreements:
Yeah, a NON-DISCLOSURE agreement would keep the typical person from revealing that the govt had asked them to cover up the killing of 3000 people.
Surely you JEST?
Arthur
QUOTE
Steel building (columns and beams) not just steel trusses.
Those *were* steel buildings.
You asked for "a few" cases, which, since you claimed that No Steel Buildings Ever collapsed from fire, actually *one* case would prove you wrong, but I supplied *four* cases of buildings with SIMILAR STRUCTURES - STEEL TRUSSES HOLDING UP CEILINGS/ROOFS, that COLLAPSED FROM FIRES, and now, you're getting all picky about how those don't count.
BS.
Steel buildings collapse from fires all the time. It isn't even considered news. You can ask any fireman, he'll tell you about steel buildings he'd been in that collapsed from fires. It's a common occurrence.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
Steel building (columns and beams) not just steel trusses. |
Those *were* steel buildings.
You asked for "a few" cases, which, since you claimed that No Steel Buildings Ever collapsed from fire, actually *one* case would prove you wrong, but I supplied *four* cases of buildings with SIMILAR STRUCTURES - STEEL TRUSSES HOLDING UP CEILINGS/ROOFS, that COLLAPSED FROM FIRES, and now, you're getting all picky about how those don't count.
BS.
Steel buildings collapse from fires all the time. It isn't even considered news. You can ask any fireman, he'll tell you about steel buildings he'd been in that collapsed from fires. It's a common occurrence.
There was absolutely no reason to remove the steel from WTC7 (would not hold up the search and rescue of the other buildings).
I already addressed this point. If the site was declared a "Crime Scene", then ONLY POLICE FORENSICS UNITS would've been allowed on the site, and ALL POSSIBLE PIECES OF EVIDENCE would've had to be taken into POLICE EVIDENCE LOCKUP. Can you picture putting all the steel beams into plastic bags, numbering them individually (even though it'd be impossible to guess where they came from) and storing them indefinitely? WHERE? Where would you put ALL THE STEEL from the THREE TOWERS?
Of course they cleaned up the site quickly, there were rotting corpses in the debris stinking up Manhattan.
The Confidentiality Agreements were just common sense - Tabloids would've loved to publish stories about the all the grisly stuff the cleanup crews found, and there was the sensibilities of the dead's relatives to consider.
No Confidentiality Agreement in the world would've been enough to cause anyone in the cleanup crew to enter into a conspiracy to cover up mass murder, if there'd been any evidence of that found. People don't just sign a paper and figure their signature obligates them to become accessories to murder after-the-fact.
What kind of idiots are you?
QUOTE (adoucette+Jun 9 2007, 04:56 PM)
The columns were welded all the way up, there were no weak connections.
But lets consider, we KNOW that the towers could handle over 9 core columns and thirty or so perimeter columns being cut, so, lets just ASSUME that you only have to cut 12 core columns (obviously no perimeter columns were cut) to get the same effect.
Every three floors.
That's over 370 columns in WTC 1.
Which is what I mean by TONS of explosives/thermate. (Not to mention the EXTENSIVE PREWORK in both towers that NOBODY mentions)
What's more, we are talking about 700 or so core columns in the pile would have evidence of this.
Which means it would be FOUND.
It WASN'T
Because it DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Arthur
You only need 1000 pounds of high energy explosives
QUOTE
You only need 1000 pounds of high energy explosives
1) That'd be plenty for bomb-sniffing dogs to "alert" to, and the FBI doesn't own all the bomb-sniffing dogs in NYC. So please explain how they managed to get the dogs to cooperate with the coverup.
2) You don't even need 1000pounds of HE. You don't need any explosives of any sort. All it takes is aircraft damage to the structure and a hot fire afterwards.
You aren't "seeking the Truth", you're just seeking fellow Jihadi-recruits, like yourself.
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/trusses.htm
SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WORLD TRADE CENTER TYPE TRUSSES ARE HEATED?
Well,... from the evidence, the answer is: Not that much happens.
We consider two examples from fires that were known to be very hot.
The June 1990 Broadgate Phase 8 fire.
Note that the fire was hot enough to buckle the steel column.
Note that even though the trusses were obviously in the same fire, they show no sign of buckling
On the 23rd June 1990 a fire developed in the partly completed fourteen storey building in the Broadgate development. The fire began in a large contractors hut on the first floor and smoke spread undetected throughout the building. The fire detection and sprinkler system were not yet operational out of working hours.
The fire lasted 4.5 hours including 2 hours where the fire exceeded 1000°C (1832°F). The direct fire loss was in excess of £25 million however, only a fraction of the cost (£2 million) represented structural frame and floor damage. The major damage was to the building fabric as a result of smoke. Moreover, the structural repairs after the fire took only 30 days. The structure of the building was a steel frame with composite steel deck concrete floors and was only partially (fire) protected at this stage of construction. During and after the fire, despite large deflections in the elements exposed to fire, the structure behaved well and there was no collapse of any of the columns, beams or floors.
The Broadgate phase 8 fire was the first opportunity to examine the influence of fire on the structural behaviour of a modern fast track steel framed building with composite construction."
The trusses used in the Broadgate phase 8 construction had a 45 feet (13.5m) span.
The World Trade Center Tower construction used trusses with both 35 and 60 foot spans.
And note that, the sprinkler system and other active measures were NOT operational at the time of the fire and most of the steel was not fire protected.
The February 1975 World Trade Center North Tower Fire.
This 110-story steel-framed office building suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 23, 1975. The loss was estimated at over $2,000,000. The building is one of a pair of towers, 412 m in height. The fire started at approximately 11:45 P.M. in a furnished office on the 11th floor and spread through the corridors toward the main open office area. A porter saw flames under the door and sounded the alarm. It was later that the smoke detector in the air-conditioning plenum on the 11th floor was activated. The delay was probably because the air-conditioning system was turned off at night. The building engineers placed the ventilation system in the purge mode, to blow fresh air into the core area and to draw air from all the offices on the 11th floor so as to prevent further smoke spread. The fire department on arrival found a very intense fire. It was not immediately known that the fire was spreading vertically from floor to floor through openings in the floor slab. These 300-mm x 450-mm (12-in. x 18-in.) openings in the slab provided access for telephone cables. Subsidiary fires on the 9th to the 19th floors were discovered and readily extinguished. The only occupants of the building at the time of fire were cleaning and service personnel. They were evacuated without any fatalities. However, there were 125 firemen involved in fighting this fire and 28 sustained injuries from the intense heat and smoke. The cause of the fire is unknown.
The WTC North Tower suffered no serious structural damage in this fire. In particular, none of the trusses needed to be replaced.
So, here is a very serious fire (which spread over eleven floors) in World Trade Center North Tower. The very same building that "collapsed" on 9/11. Although the 1975 fire lasted about 4 hours, it caused no serious structural damage. However, according to the government/media fairy tale on 9/11, the 2001 fire, which lasted only 1.75 hours, caused not only serious structural damage, but the entire building to collapse.
There should be a law against telling such fairy tales as these government/media fables.
Anyway, in both of the above mentioned pre-9/11 fires, the trusses survived the fires without replacement and supported the buildings for many, many years after the fires were put out.
So did truss failure cause the "collapses" of the World Trade Center buildings? Of course not.
SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WORLD TRADE CENTER TYPE TRUSSES ARE HEATED?
Well,... from the evidence, the answer is: Not that much happens.
We consider two examples from fires that were known to be very hot.
The June 1990 Broadgate Phase 8 fire.
Note that the fire was hot enough to buckle the steel column.
Note that even though the trusses were obviously in the same fire, they show no sign of buckling
On the 23rd June 1990 a fire developed in the partly completed fourteen storey building in the Broadgate development. The fire began in a large contractors hut on the first floor and smoke spread undetected throughout the building. The fire detection and sprinkler system were not yet operational out of working hours.
The fire lasted 4.5 hours including 2 hours where the fire exceeded 1000°C (1832°F). The direct fire loss was in excess of £25 million however, only a fraction of the cost (£2 million) represented structural frame and floor damage. The major damage was to the building fabric as a result of smoke. Moreover, the structural repairs after the fire took only 30 days. The structure of the building was a steel frame with composite steel deck concrete floors and was only partially (fire) protected at this stage of construction. During and after the fire, despite large deflections in the elements exposed to fire, the structure behaved well and there was no collapse of any of the columns, beams or floors.
The Broadgate phase 8 fire was the first opportunity to examine the influence of fire on the structural behaviour of a modern fast track steel framed building with composite construction."
The trusses used in the Broadgate phase 8 construction had a 45 feet (13.5m) span.
The World Trade Center Tower construction used trusses with both 35 and 60 foot spans.
And note that, the sprinkler system and other active measures were NOT operational at the time of the fire and most of the steel was not fire protected.
The February 1975 World Trade Center North Tower Fire.
This 110-story steel-framed office building suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 23, 1975. The loss was estimated at over $2,000,000. The building is one of a pair of towers, 412 m in height. The fire started at approximately 11:45 P.M. in a furnished office on the 11th floor and spread through the corridors toward the main open office area. A porter saw flames under the door and sounded the alarm. It was later that the smoke detector in the air-conditioning plenum on the 11th floor was activated. The delay was probably because the air-conditioning system was turned off at night. The building engineers placed the ventilation system in the purge mode, to blow fresh air into the core area and to draw air from all the offices on the 11th floor so as to prevent further smoke spread. The fire department on arrival found a very intense fire. It was not immediately known that the fire was spreading vertically from floor to floor through openings in the floor slab. These 300-mm x 450-mm (12-in. x 18-in.) openings in the slab provided access for telephone cables. Subsidiary fires on the 9th to the 19th floors were discovered and readily extinguished. The only occupants of the building at the time of fire were cleaning and service personnel. They were evacuated without any fatalities. However, there were 125 firemen involved in fighting this fire and 28 sustained injuries from the intense heat and smoke. The cause of the fire is unknown.
The WTC North Tower suffered no serious structural damage in this fire. In particular, none of the trusses needed to be replaced.
So, here is a very serious fire (which spread over eleven floors) in World Trade Center North Tower. The very same building that "collapsed" on 9/11. Although the 1975 fire lasted about 4 hours, it caused no serious structural damage. However, according to the government/media fairy tale on 9/11, the 2001 fire, which lasted only 1.75 hours, caused not only serious structural damage, but the entire building to collapse.
There should be a law against telling such fairy tales as these government/media fables.
Anyway, in both of the above mentioned pre-9/11 fires, the trusses survived the fires without replacement and supported the buildings for many, many years after the fires were put out.
So did truss failure cause the "collapses" of the World Trade Center buildings? Of course not.
wcelliott
Im a patriot like your forefathers. that you havent read anything about because they dont teach real history in school. I am off course against al-qaida (witch NWO funded, dont want to say us funden them because they are not US, you the people are america, not they.) And dont talk bad about ed brown RESPECT him, that man is a real PATRIOT. He is ready do DIE for what he believes in. And have you watched freedom to fascism yet? or you cant take 1 hour of your life to find out the truth?.
QUOTE
you're just seeking fellow Jihadi-recruits, like yourself.
Im a patriot like your forefathers. that you havent read anything about because they dont teach real history in school. I am off course against al-qaida (witch NWO funded, dont want to say us funden them because they are not US, you the people are america, not they.) And dont talk bad about ed brown RESPECT him, that man is a real PATRIOT. He is ready do DIE for what he believes in. And have you watched freedom to fascism yet? or you cant take 1 hour of your life to find out the truth?.
QUOTE
So did truss failure cause the "collapses" of the World Trade Center buildings? Of course not.
All evidence to the contrary...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
So did truss failure cause the "collapses" of the World Trade Center buildings? Of course not. |
All evidence to the contrary...
He is ready do DIE for what he believes in.
And, no doubt, ready to kill lots of others, too. Those are PRECISELY the assh*les who are at the root of all terrorism.
Pol Pot was also willing to die for his beliefs, only as luck would have it, he managed to murder 3 million people along the way, all for his b*llsh*t ideology.
Hitler had an ideology, too, so did Stalin. They were pursuing their notions of Utopia and figured if a few million got killed in the process of founding this Utopia, no big deal.
Utopias only exist in the minds of the naive. If you think you can create a "better world" by overthrowing anything, you're just an idiot.
If you're actually Swedish, deal with Sweden and stay the f*ck out of American issues. Your kind is not welcome here.
what evidence??? there are no evidence..
QUOTE
what evidence??? there are no evidence..
There are no evidence of explosive.
There are no evidence of thermite or hyperbaric bomb.
There are no evidence of any sort of CD.
There are only evidence of wack-job tinfoil hat crazies who can't accept Osama bin Laden's admission that he plotted the 9/11 attacks.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 07:14 PM)
There are only evidence of wack-job tinfoil hat crazies who can't accept Osama bin Laden's admission that he plotted the 9/11 attacks.
that wasn't osama. a blind man could see the difference.
the real osama denied involvement, and actually pointed the finger at america, on middle eastern radio.
so, tell me. if it was such a glorious blow for allah against the great satan, why did he not claim a victory? why would he lie to his own minions?
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 10:04 AM)
Those *were* steel buildings.
You asked for "a few" cases, which, since you claimed that No Steel Buildings Ever collapsed from fire, actually *one* case would prove you wrong, but I supplied *four* cases of buildings with SIMILAR STRUCTURES - STEEL TRUSSES HOLDING UP CEILINGS/ROOFS, that COLLAPSED FROM FIRES, and now, you're getting all picky about how those don't count.
BS.
Steel buildings collapse from fires all the time. It isn't even considered news. You can ask any fireman, he'll tell you about steel buildings he'd been in that collapsed from fires. It's a common occurrence.
Your examples don't even deserve a reply (you don't even understand what a steel building is).
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 10:04 AM)
I already addressed this point. If the site was declared a "Crime Scene", then ONLY POLICE FORENSICS UNITS would've been allowed on the site, and ALL POSSIBLE PIECES OF EVIDENCE would've had to be taken into POLICE EVIDENCE LOCKUP. Can you picture putting all the steel beams into plastic bags, numbering them individually (even though it'd be impossible to guess where they came from) and storing them indefinitely? WHERE? Where would you put ALL THE STEEL from the THREE TOWERS?
Of course they cleaned up the site quickly, there were rotting corpses in the debris stinking up Manhattan.
The Confidentiality Agreements were just common sense - Tabloids would've loved to publish stories about the all the grisly stuff the cleanup crews found, and there was the sensibilities of the dead's relatives to consider.
No Confidentiality Agreement in the world would've been enough to cause anyone in the cleanup crew to enter into a conspiracy to cover up mass murder, if there'd been any evidence of that found. People don't just sign a paper and figure their signature obligates them to become accessories to murder after-the-fact.
What kind of idiots are you?
Plastic bags?
What do you think they normally do for a structural failure ?
Can you name a complete structural failure from fire that was not investigated (you can even use your steel truss buildings for this)?
From a real expert who actually knows what he is talking about:
QUOTE
Modern Marvels: Engineering Disasters 13
"Jonathan Barnett, PhD: Normally when you have a structural failure, you carefully go through the debris field looking at each item -- photographing every beam as it collapsed and every column where it is in the ground and you pick them up very carefully and you look at each element. We were unable to do that in the case of tower 7.
"Jonathan Barnett, PhD: Normally when you have a structural failure, you carefully go through the debris field looking at each item -- photographing every beam as it collapsed and every column where it is in the ground and you pick them up very carefully and you look at each element. We were unable to do that in the case of tower 7.
There were no "rotting corpses " in building 7 ( as if that has stopped a forensic investigation in the past).
Can you imagine an inspector claiming they could not investigate a fire because people had died in the building!
What kind of IDIOTS do you think the American people are?
QUOTE
that wasn't osama. a blind man could see the difference.
the real osama denied involvement, and actually pointed the finger at america, on middle eastern radio.
the real osama denied involvement, and actually pointed the finger at america, on middle eastern radio.
I just watched a documentary about Osama bin Laden, and it included a lot of real video footage of Osama and his minions shot at various times in various places. The key 9/11 hijackers were there, with him, together, before the attack, making their "martyr" tapes, and Osama was in the next scene saying how they weren't aware of their mission until right before they boarded their planes.
I don't speak Arabic, but what he's saying can be heard in the background, and there are plenty of Arabic-speakers in America, so if he was saying one thing and the translator was saying another, that'd be pretty sloppy propaganda, and I give filmmakers more credit than to make a blunder of that magnitude.
I'd be interested in learning what leads you to believe that "a blind man could tell the difference". I'd be more willing to accept your word for things you've observed, but you posted seeing "flashes of light" in that collapse video where it was just the fire from a burning room, and you said you saw a thermobaric fireball when all I saw was smoke and dust being "bellowed" out of a collapsing floor, so I think you see whatever you want to see, not what's there.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 10 2007, 11:30 AM)
that wasn't osama. a blind man could see the difference.
the real osama denied involvement, and actually pointed the finger at america, on middle eastern radio.
so, tell me. if it was such a glorious blow for allah against the great satan, why did he not claim a victory? why would he lie to his own minions?
The interview with OBL right after the attack:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_interview_ummat.htm
To see if his statements about drugs are true look at the Opium production in Afghanistan:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_interview_ummat.htm
To see if his statements about drugs are true look at the Opium production in Afghanistan:
Afghanistan Opium Crop Sets Record
U.S.-Backed Efforts At Eradication Fail
By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 2, 2006; Page A01
Opium production in Afghanistan, which provides more than 90 percent of the world's heroin, broke all records in 2006, reaching a historic high despite ongoing U.S.-sponsored eradication efforts, the Bush administration reported yesterday.
In addition to a 26 percent production increase over past year -- for a total of 5,644 metric tons -- the amount of land under cultivation in opium poppies grew by 61 percent. Cultivation in the two main production provinces, Helmand in the southwest and Oruzgan in central Afghanistan, was up by 132 percent.
What was it under the taliban (same article):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6120101654.html
He lied.
He lied.
Can you name a complete structural failure from fire that was not investigated (you can even use your steel truss buildings for this)?
They investigated the WTC towers' collapse. They collected steel beams from the relevant sites, when they could be identified. They reported this in the NIST document.
Your original objection was that they didn't save *ALL* the steel from the site.
Their primary objective after the collapse was to recover body parts from the debris field, as they were rotting and making Manhattan reek of rotting human corpses. They expedited that cleanup process by all reasonable means, including hauling off the steel from the site as quickly as humanly possible so that they could get at the human remains as quickly as possible.
You want to characterize this as sinister, but it's just common decency to try to get the victims' bodies out of the rubble. We do the same when we send rescue workers to foreign disasters, get the bodies out of the rubble as quickly as possible, for humanitarian reasons. It's only in your eyes that that appears sinister, and that reflects badly on you.
He lied.
But he told the truth when he admitted it on tape (I don't believe him either that is why I check out what he claims)? :
So far, I haven't been very impressed with your powers of observation/deduction.
You said you saw "flashes of light" when it was obviously just fire.
You said you saw the fireball from a "thermobaric blast" when it was just the smoke being expelled (leisurely) from the first collapsing floor.
Plus too many others to mention.
I don't think you *can* tell the difference between truth and fiction.
So far, I haven't been very impressed with your powers of observation/deduction.
You said you saw "flashes of light" when it was obviously just fire.
You said you saw the fireball from a "thermobaric blast" when it was just the smoke being expelled (leisurely) from the first collapsing floor.
Plus too many others to mention.
I don't think you *can* tell the difference between truth and fiction.
Please show were I made either of those statements?
I have had enough "Debunking the Debunkers" for today.
Page 285, where you said *BOTH*.
Page 285, where you said *BOTH*.
here, i can do links ... watch the top fall apart, while the bottom remains RIGID in this video. look for the flashes, too. there is more than one, but there is a very obvious one at collapse initiation.
and, regarding thermobarics, DAMN that's an impressive fireball.
EDIT - I got you confused with NEWTON, he was the one who was originally claiming that Osama bin Laden didn't do it because he said he didn't, and you got in the middle and I mistook your comments for his.
NEWTON was the one I *thought* I was talking to.
Page 285, where you said *BOTH*.
here, i can do links ... watch the top fall apart, while the bottom remains RIGID in this video. look for the flashes, too. there is more than one, but there is a very obvious one at collapse initiation.
and, regarding thermobarics, DAMN that's an impressive fireball.
Newton does not use links . I was trying to help you out.
In an oxygen-starved fire, the smoke itself is flammable, but doesn't have enough oxygen to burn. If the smoke gets ejected into the fresh air, it erupts in flame in response to the sudden increase in oxygen, outside versus inside.
I saw what you're describing about the "flash of white" but it's just a surge of fire like you'd get from an aerosol can bursting, not a blast. You should really look at more explosions, you'll see the difference. Blasts, especially thermobaric or HE blasts, have shock waves that are visible especially when they're transiting smoke or dust. The shock waves travel *through* the smoke/dust, unless they're the cause (i.e., the smoke is the gas generated by the explosive). The smoke is already there before the building drops, so it didn't result from any explosives, and the smoke that's ejected as the build falls is just coming out too slowly for any of that to be caused by any sort of blast. Shock waves go at least Mach 1. That smoke leaving the WTC windows is just getting displaced by falling floors, like what a big bellows would do. Much too slow for a blast of any sort.
Look at this video, watch how slowly the building collapses. A blast would result in a sudden transition. The building would be standing, stable, then a blast would happen, then the building would drop. Here, the building transitions from slowly failing to buckling perimeter columns being dragged in, to the perimeter colums giving way and the building collapsing.
So tell me when in this sequence of events shown clearly in this video did the explosives go off?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...528290546&hl=en
All evidence to the contrary...
And, no doubt, ready to kill lots of others, too. Those are PRECISELY the assh*les who are at the root of all terrorism.
Pol Pot was also willing to die for his beliefs, only as luck would have it, he managed to murder 3 million people along the way, all for his b*llsh*t ideology.
Hitler had an ideology, too, so did Stalin. They were pursuing their notions of Utopia and figured if a few million got killed in the process of founding this Utopia, no big deal.
Utopias only exist in the minds of the naive. If you think you can create a "better world" by overthrowing anything, you're just an idiot.
If you're actually Swedish, deal with Sweden and stay the f*ck out of American issues. Your kind is not welcome here.
Some of your words are what are not welcome.
You write we should keep this forum civilized, but then call people idiots, insult Moe as being a recruiter of "jihadists", say Ed Brown would "kill lots of others too" (you don't know this man; if you did, you would not make such an outrageous remark), etc.
You're getting to be quite the "ad hominem bot", aren't you?
If you had watched the film "America: From Freedom To Fascism", you would not make statements that overlook the truth of the film (about the fraud of the income tax on individuals in America). On this you are either lying or do not know what you are talking about.
BTW, your three examples above about real killers (Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, all heads of state) who used their governments to kill millions -- yes, they were at the heart of TERRORISM.
CASTING ALL YOUR CARES UPON HIM BECAUSE HE CARES FOR YOU
They were all True Believers in their ideology, pursuing the Utopia promised by their ideology.
Hence my point that people like MalmoJihadi are the bigger problem with this world than any NWO delusion represents.
And I don't think I've actually complained about the abusive language, others have, and I was accused of starting it, so I pointed out what Malmo said before me. I'd prefer to use more direct language in my discussions with him, as polite terms somehow miss the mark when dealing with idiots.
http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/475.htm
Sounds big and heavy, but it's a press capable of exerting 50tons of force via a hydraulic jack.
It's about four feet high, and you could fit it in the trunk of your car.
Which has already been POINTED OUT TO MALMOJIHADI THE LAST TIME HE POSTED THIS CR@P!
All the other points have already been dealt with in this post the last time he posted it, too.
WHICH leads me to ask what his motivation is?
Is he actually interested in the TRUTH? If so, he'd have read the responses and would've known better than to re-post this nonsense again.
So, if not in pursuit of the Truth, why then is he reposting the same cr@p as before?
The answer is pretty obvious to me, he's looking for potential Jihadi-recruits. He has no interest in what really happened on 9/11, he's just casting a net to see what he can haul in. I doubt that he's from Sweden. I doubt he even lives there.
So, MalmoJihadi, what are the income taxes like in Sweden?
the real osama denied involvement, and actually pointed the finger at america, on middle eastern radio.
so, tell me. if it was such a glorious blow for allah against the great satan, why did he not claim a victory? why would he lie to his own minions?
The interview with OBL right after the attack:
QUOTE
Then there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. In the same way, whether it is President Bush or any other U.S. President, they cannot bring Israel to justice for its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_interview_ummat.htm
To see if his statements about drugs are true look at the Opium production in Afghanistan:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Then there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. In the same way, whether it is President Bush or any other U.S. President, they cannot bring Israel to justice for its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. |
http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_interview_ummat.htm
To see if his statements about drugs are true look at the Opium production in Afghanistan:
Afghanistan Opium Crop Sets Record
U.S.-Backed Efforts At Eradication Fail
By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 2, 2006; Page A01
Opium production in Afghanistan, which provides more than 90 percent of the world's heroin, broke all records in 2006, reaching a historic high despite ongoing U.S.-sponsored eradication efforts, the Bush administration reported yesterday.
In addition to a 26 percent production increase over past year -- for a total of 5,644 metric tons -- the amount of land under cultivation in opium poppies grew by 61 percent. Cultivation in the two main production provinces, Helmand in the southwest and Oruzgan in central Afghanistan, was up by 132 percent.
What was it under the taliban (same article):
QUOTE
Opium cultivation was outlawed during Taliban rule in the late 1990s and was nearly eliminated by 2001.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6120101654.html
QUOTE
He blaims it on the secret goverment in the US.
He lied.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| He blaims it on the secret goverment in the US. |
He lied.
Can you name a complete structural failure from fire that was not investigated (you can even use your steel truss buildings for this)?
They investigated the WTC towers' collapse. They collected steel beams from the relevant sites, when they could be identified. They reported this in the NIST document.
Your original objection was that they didn't save *ALL* the steel from the site.
Their primary objective after the collapse was to recover body parts from the debris field, as they were rotting and making Manhattan reek of rotting human corpses. They expedited that cleanup process by all reasonable means, including hauling off the steel from the site as quickly as humanly possible so that they could get at the human remains as quickly as possible.
You want to characterize this as sinister, but it's just common decency to try to get the victims' bodies out of the rubble. We do the same when we send rescue workers to foreign disasters, get the bodies out of the rubble as quickly as possible, for humanitarian reasons. It's only in your eyes that that appears sinister, and that reflects badly on you.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 11:57 AM)
He lied.
But he told the truth when he admitted it on tape (I don't believe him either that is why I check out what he claims)? :
QUOTE
(I don't believe him either that is why I check out what he claims)?
So far, I haven't been very impressed with your powers of observation/deduction.
You said you saw "flashes of light" when it was obviously just fire.
You said you saw the fireball from a "thermobaric blast" when it was just the smoke being expelled (leisurely) from the first collapsing floor.
Plus too many others to mention.
I don't think you *can* tell the difference between truth and fiction.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 12:13 PM)
So far, I haven't been very impressed with your powers of observation/deduction.
You said you saw "flashes of light" when it was obviously just fire.
You said you saw the fireball from a "thermobaric blast" when it was just the smoke being expelled (leisurely) from the first collapsing floor.
Plus too many others to mention.
I don't think you *can* tell the difference between truth and fiction.
Please show were I made either of those statements?
I have had enough "Debunking the Debunkers" for today.
QUOTE (Alan (ex elevator man)+Jun 10 2007, 06:19 AM)
That's correct, but... You rig it to the crane and boom him down or up, to the left or right, or whatever's needed to get it plumb, but you can only get close, so there's subject to be a little swing virtually every time. Watch ironworkers picking a load, they have tag lines and "hands on" when the load first gets clear, because it's almost never at the exact centerline pick point.
True. But as soon as I get movement on the piece I'm hoisting I call for tension on the line. To be honest, I like you said, they weren't making swiss watches, so any cut would suffice. Hard to say for sure, guys with fire tend to get kinda weird. Some guys are butchers, some are artists, no matter what the job.
Personally I would have cut straight across and hoped to get the piece to pinch back onto the already cut part with tension, that way there you would minimize any swing until yur guy is clear, then hoist it. JMO
True. But as soon as I get movement on the piece I'm hoisting I call for tension on the line. To be honest, I like you said, they weren't making swiss watches, so any cut would suffice. Hard to say for sure, guys with fire tend to get kinda weird. Some guys are butchers, some are artists, no matter what the job.
Personally I would have cut straight across and hoped to get the piece to pinch back onto the already cut part with tension, that way there you would minimize any swing until yur guy is clear, then hoist it. JMO
QUOTE
Please show were I made either of those statements?
Page 285, where you said *BOTH*.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Please show were I made either of those statements? |
Page 285, where you said *BOTH*.
here, i can do links ... watch the top fall apart, while the bottom remains RIGID in this video. look for the flashes, too. there is more than one, but there is a very obvious one at collapse initiation.
and, regarding thermobarics, DAMN that's an impressive fireball.
EDIT - I got you confused with NEWTON, he was the one who was originally claiming that Osama bin Laden didn't do it because he said he didn't, and you got in the middle and I mistook your comments for his.
NEWTON was the one I *thought* I was talking to.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 12:25 PM)
Page 285, where you said *BOTH*.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 9 2007, 11:20 PM)
here, i can do links ... watch the top fall apart, while the bottom remains RIGID in this video. look for the flashes, too. there is more than one, but there is a very obvious one at collapse initiation.
and, regarding thermobarics, DAMN that's an impressive fireball.
Newton does not use links . I was trying to help you out.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 10 2007, 12:20 AM)
look. i really don't know what you're trying to make me imagine i see.
i do know, that the crush up/crush down theory requires the top to act as a rigid body, ie. keeping it's structural integrity, and the bottom part is supposed to be getting crushed and deformed and is supposed to be unable to support the sudden impact from the falling 'mother of all sledgehammers'.
well it WAS stopped, because anything below the red line didn't budge, deform, buckle, peel, pop, or give up the ghost in any way whatsoever. so, if you think bringing the plane's impact point into the argument is at all valid, i suggest you redo your homework.
what is see in the first moments of collapse, is a bright white flash from through the smoke in the middle of the wall at initiation(right side of the screen), and right about where the bottom red line was drawn by gordon ross, and i see that the top part has broken apart itself as it descends, and i see that the bottom part, ie. at the level the bottom red line was drawn by gordon ross, doesn't budge.
the whacky OCT math does not reflect this physical reality. it claims the bottom was breaking apart while the top portion kept it's shape, and this top chunk was some kind of unstoppable hammer. it was dust and kindling sticks, as is clearly shown in the fine video you linked to.
here, i can do links ... watch the top fall apart, while the bottom remains RIGID in this video. look for the flashes, too. there is more than one, but there is a very obvious one at collapse initiation.
and, regarding thermobarics, DAMN that's an impressive fireball.
and regarding whether thermobarics or thermate or rdx were used, (or spacebeams and nukes and a tesla howitzer), and whether the triggers were wired or wireless, ....
they used them all(possibly). each device has a different function. weaken slowly with thermate, than a thermobaric blast or two, and then some rdx.
also, at the same time the spray on rocket fuel 'fireproofing replacement' was triggered. (thanks for that neu fonze)
why do OCTs insist on one type of device? and they accuse 'us' of 'one dimensional thinking'.
It is exactly as you describe, newton (the same as GR described).
The OCTs deny what the eyes see and instead "see" unproven theoretics and math equations.
The WTC1 antenna falling first is another example, and so is the the reflection of the emergency vehicle in the Hlava video, but WTC7 coming down is the standard of their blindness.
COME TO ME ALL WHO ARE WEARY AND HEAVY LADEN AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST
i do know, that the crush up/crush down theory requires the top to act as a rigid body, ie. keeping it's structural integrity, and the bottom part is supposed to be getting crushed and deformed and is supposed to be unable to support the sudden impact from the falling 'mother of all sledgehammers'.
well it WAS stopped, because anything below the red line didn't budge, deform, buckle, peel, pop, or give up the ghost in any way whatsoever. so, if you think bringing the plane's impact point into the argument is at all valid, i suggest you redo your homework.
what is see in the first moments of collapse, is a bright white flash from through the smoke in the middle of the wall at initiation(right side of the screen), and right about where the bottom red line was drawn by gordon ross, and i see that the top part has broken apart itself as it descends, and i see that the bottom part, ie. at the level the bottom red line was drawn by gordon ross, doesn't budge.
the whacky OCT math does not reflect this physical reality. it claims the bottom was breaking apart while the top portion kept it's shape, and this top chunk was some kind of unstoppable hammer. it was dust and kindling sticks, as is clearly shown in the fine video you linked to.
here, i can do links ... watch the top fall apart, while the bottom remains RIGID in this video. look for the flashes, too. there is more than one, but there is a very obvious one at collapse initiation.
and, regarding thermobarics, DAMN that's an impressive fireball.
and regarding whether thermobarics or thermate or rdx were used, (or spacebeams and nukes and a tesla howitzer), and whether the triggers were wired or wireless, ....
they used them all(possibly). each device has a different function. weaken slowly with thermate, than a thermobaric blast or two, and then some rdx.
also, at the same time the spray on rocket fuel 'fireproofing replacement' was triggered. (thanks for that neu fonze)
why do OCTs insist on one type of device? and they accuse 'us' of 'one dimensional thinking'.
It is exactly as you describe, newton (the same as GR described).
The OCTs deny what the eyes see and instead "see" unproven theoretics and math equations.
The WTC1 antenna falling first is another example, and so is the the reflection of the emergency vehicle in the Hlava video, but WTC7 coming down is the standard of their blindness.
COME TO ME ALL WHO ARE WEARY AND HEAVY LADEN AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 07:52 PM)
I'd be interested in learning what leads you to believe that "a blind man could tell the difference". I'd be more willing to accept your word for things you've observed, but you posted seeing "flashes of light" in that collapse video where it was just the fire from a burning room, and you said you saw a thermobaric fireball when all I saw was smoke and dust being "bellowed" out of a collapsing floor, so I think you see whatever you want to see, not what's there.
video osama....
bridge of nose is different, face is fatter, beard colouring is different. those are the obvious differences.
the flash of light is that.... a FLASH of WHITE, and it is in the smoke, there are no white flames shooting out of the building.
the fireball looks to me like it has suddenly been fueled, and not just pushed. i just said it was an impressive fireball, and i suggest that a fuel/air explosion might be the reason. i understand air is being pushed out by collapsing floors.
can't play, now. busy. ciao 4 now.
video osama....
bridge of nose is different, face is fatter, beard colouring is different. those are the obvious differences.
the flash of light is that.... a FLASH of WHITE, and it is in the smoke, there are no white flames shooting out of the building.
the fireball looks to me like it has suddenly been fueled, and not just pushed. i just said it was an impressive fireball, and i suggest that a fuel/air explosion might be the reason. i understand air is being pushed out by collapsing floors.
can't play, now. busy. ciao 4 now.
QUOTE
the flash of light is that.... a FLASH of WHITE, and it is in the smoke, there are no white flames shooting out of the building.
the fireball looks to me like it has suddenly been fueled, and not just pushed. i just said it was an impressive fireball, and i suggest that a fuel/air explosion might be the reason. i understand air is being pushed out by collapsing floors.
the fireball looks to me like it has suddenly been fueled, and not just pushed. i just said it was an impressive fireball, and i suggest that a fuel/air explosion might be the reason. i understand air is being pushed out by collapsing floors.
In an oxygen-starved fire, the smoke itself is flammable, but doesn't have enough oxygen to burn. If the smoke gets ejected into the fresh air, it erupts in flame in response to the sudden increase in oxygen, outside versus inside.
I saw what you're describing about the "flash of white" but it's just a surge of fire like you'd get from an aerosol can bursting, not a blast. You should really look at more explosions, you'll see the difference. Blasts, especially thermobaric or HE blasts, have shock waves that are visible especially when they're transiting smoke or dust. The shock waves travel *through* the smoke/dust, unless they're the cause (i.e., the smoke is the gas generated by the explosive). The smoke is already there before the building drops, so it didn't result from any explosives, and the smoke that's ejected as the build falls is just coming out too slowly for any of that to be caused by any sort of blast. Shock waves go at least Mach 1. That smoke leaving the WTC windows is just getting displaced by falling floors, like what a big bellows would do. Much too slow for a blast of any sort.
Look at this video, watch how slowly the building collapses. A blast would result in a sudden transition. The building would be standing, stable, then a blast would happen, then the building would drop. Here, the building transitions from slowly failing to buckling perimeter columns being dragged in, to the perimeter colums giving way and the building collapsing.
So tell me when in this sequence of events shown clearly in this video did the explosives go off?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...528290546&hl=en
Pierre-Normand --- Changing the top block size by a story or two makes little difference, even for WTC 1 and even if the excess mass at the top of the tower is ignored.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 11:53 AM)
All evidence to the contrary...
And, no doubt, ready to kill lots of others, too. Those are PRECISELY the assh*les who are at the root of all terrorism.
Pol Pot was also willing to die for his beliefs, only as luck would have it, he managed to murder 3 million people along the way, all for his b*llsh*t ideology.
Hitler had an ideology, too, so did Stalin. They were pursuing their notions of Utopia and figured if a few million got killed in the process of founding this Utopia, no big deal.
Utopias only exist in the minds of the naive. If you think you can create a "better world" by overthrowing anything, you're just an idiot.
If you're actually Swedish, deal with Sweden and stay the f*ck out of American issues. Your kind is not welcome here.
Some of your words are what are not welcome.
You write we should keep this forum civilized, but then call people idiots, insult Moe as being a recruiter of "jihadists", say Ed Brown would "kill lots of others too" (you don't know this man; if you did, you would not make such an outrageous remark), etc.
You're getting to be quite the "ad hominem bot", aren't you?
If you had watched the film "America: From Freedom To Fascism", you would not make statements that overlook the truth of the film (about the fraud of the income tax on individuals in America). On this you are either lying or do not know what you are talking about.
BTW, your three examples above about real killers (Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, all heads of state) who used their governments to kill millions -- yes, they were at the heart of TERRORISM.
CASTING ALL YOUR CARES UPON HIM BECAUSE HE CARES FOR YOU
QUOTE (Capracus+Jun 10 2007, 11:07 AM)
That particular column, C-88a, ...
I assume the southward bend was due to the impact of the upper block. ...
Not quite what NIST states in NCSTAR1-3B. The tremendous buckling is considered to have occurred at the beginning of crush-up, although NIST states it differently.
Incidentally, C-88a and one other column both help to support the crush-up/crush-down hypothesis for the collapses.
I assume the southward bend was due to the impact of the upper block. ...
Not quite what NIST states in NCSTAR1-3B. The tremendous buckling is considered to have occurred at the beginning of crush-up, although NIST states it differently.
Incidentally, C-88a and one other column both help to support the crush-up/crush-down hypothesis for the collapses.
QUOTE
BTW, your three examples above about real killers (Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, all heads of state) who used their governments to kill millions -- yes, they were at the heart of TERRORISM.
They were all True Believers in their ideology, pursuing the Utopia promised by their ideology.
Hence my point that people like MalmoJihadi are the bigger problem with this world than any NWO delusion represents.
And I don't think I've actually complained about the abusive language, others have, and I was accused of starting it, so I pointed out what Malmo said before me. I'd prefer to use more direct language in my discussions with him, as polite terms somehow miss the mark when dealing with idiots.
I still wonder what destroyed the basement. Grumpys explanation that couldnt even destroy a test dummy is the must ridiculous i have heard.
Sergei Siletzky a Stationary engineer who worked in world trade center one described tremendous damage in the basement of the building more consistent in nature and timing with a bomb than with damage from jet fuel: "'There was nothing there but rubble . . . We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press—gone!'. . . They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up 'like a piece of aluminum foil.' Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, [he] was convinced that a bomb had gone off."
50 ton hydraulic press gone?. the garage gone?...
CBS News reporter stated "All of a sudden I heard a roar and I saw one of the towers blow ... I saw from street level as though it exploded up, a giant rolling ball of flame...". (same reporter stated "I hear simultaneously this roar and see what appears to be a gigantic fireball rising up at ground level . . . I remember seeing this giant ball of fire come out of the earth as I heard this roar"
sound of explosion and a fireball...hmmm...what can it be
David - “That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot. I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself ‘God, please give me strength.’”
He heard a explosion from the basement and could feel heat after the explosion. hmmm
Giambanco. sub level 1. "“We heard the explosion and the smoke all of a sudden came from all over. There was an incredible force of wind that also swept everything away. I remember hearing a scream of a woman, but I couldn’t see her. I had just gotten off the elevator and I was standing by it with another man
but didn’t know his name."
Police Officer - "We went back up to the sixth floor . . . . Then there was an eerie silence and it was like you knew something was going to happen. There just seemed to be one explosion after another. I was separated from the guys from the bridge . . . by another explosion, massive again, sucking the air out of your lungs and then just a wind more intense this time with larger pieces of debris flying."
Where did the wind come from? the sound?.
Assistant Chief Engineer at the World Trade Center arrived on the 38th floor of the North Tower before the plane hit, got out of the elevator, and about 50 feet down the hallway, he heard a loud explosion and was lifted into the air. "I can't even tell you how far I traveled," he recalled. When he landed, people were already coming out of their offices into the hallway . . .Upon reaching the 43rd floor, "there were patches of ceiling that was just down on the floor, water pipes were broken, water was gushing like a brook or river that was just running down the corridor of the machine room."
What LIFTED him up and made him travel through the AIR on the 38th floor???
Officer in the New Jersey Fire Police Department who was previously a sergeant in the U.S. Army, said about the south tower: “[I]t sounded like bombs going off. That's when the explosions happened. . . . I knew something was going to happen. . . . It started to get dark, then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion.” Then, discussing her experiences during the collapse of the north tower, she said: “[There was] another explosion. That sent me and the two firefighters down the stairs. . . . I can't tell you how many times I got banged around. Each one of those explosions picked me up and threw me. . . . There was another explosion, and I got thrown with two firefighters out onto the street.
What got theme THROWN out onto the street and picked theme up and threw theme time after time?. A segeant from the U.S army and police officier, i THINK they know what bombs sound like to.
"Police officer and bowhunter Will Jimeno shares an eyewitness story of the 9/11 horrors and his own incredible struggle for survival beneath tons of Twin Tower debris.Five of us grabbed our air packs and helmets and other gear and headed out. We got on the elevator and went down to the Mall Level and made our way across toward Tower Two. As we turned into a connecting corridor leading to Tower One, we suddenly heard a terrible rumbling noise. I looked out onto the street and saw a fireball the size of my house hit the pavement. Then everything around us started shaking. "Run!" Sarge yelled. "Run to the left!"
http://www.bowhunter.com/feature_articles/BN_FromTheRubble/
Fireball the size of his house?
A guy that helped a person from the basement that had his skin "hanged of"
http://www.youtube.com/v/iMkyLLlowA8
A fire department batallion chief stated "it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see (redacted) I could see two sides of it and the other side, it just looked like that floor blew out" (what was in the redacted portion?). http*://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Dixon_Brian.txt
How could the fire damage from airplanes or their jet fuel have caused such extensive explosions over so many floors over such a long timeframe below the airplane impacts? most of the fuel spilled outside of the towers in the fireballs, and the rest supposedly lit the paper, rugs and other office contents of the twin towers on fire?. Given these facts, how could fires or jet fuel have caused the events described above by credible eyewitnesses?.
Sergei Siletzky a Stationary engineer who worked in world trade center one described tremendous damage in the basement of the building more consistent in nature and timing with a bomb than with damage from jet fuel: "'There was nothing there but rubble . . . We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press—gone!'. . . They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up 'like a piece of aluminum foil.' Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, [he] was convinced that a bomb had gone off."
50 ton hydraulic press gone?. the garage gone?...
CBS News reporter stated "All of a sudden I heard a roar and I saw one of the towers blow ... I saw from street level as though it exploded up, a giant rolling ball of flame...". (same reporter stated "I hear simultaneously this roar and see what appears to be a gigantic fireball rising up at ground level . . . I remember seeing this giant ball of fire come out of the earth as I heard this roar"
sound of explosion and a fireball...hmmm...what can it be
David - “That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot. I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself ‘God, please give me strength.’”
He heard a explosion from the basement and could feel heat after the explosion. hmmm
Giambanco. sub level 1. "“We heard the explosion and the smoke all of a sudden came from all over. There was an incredible force of wind that also swept everything away. I remember hearing a scream of a woman, but I couldn’t see her. I had just gotten off the elevator and I was standing by it with another man
but didn’t know his name."
Police Officer - "We went back up to the sixth floor . . . . Then there was an eerie silence and it was like you knew something was going to happen. There just seemed to be one explosion after another. I was separated from the guys from the bridge . . . by another explosion, massive again, sucking the air out of your lungs and then just a wind more intense this time with larger pieces of debris flying."
Where did the wind come from? the sound?.
Assistant Chief Engineer at the World Trade Center arrived on the 38th floor of the North Tower before the plane hit, got out of the elevator, and about 50 feet down the hallway, he heard a loud explosion and was lifted into the air. "I can't even tell you how far I traveled," he recalled. When he landed, people were already coming out of their offices into the hallway . . .Upon reaching the 43rd floor, "there were patches of ceiling that was just down on the floor, water pipes were broken, water was gushing like a brook or river that was just running down the corridor of the machine room."
What LIFTED him up and made him travel through the AIR on the 38th floor???
Officer in the New Jersey Fire Police Department who was previously a sergeant in the U.S. Army, said about the south tower: “[I]t sounded like bombs going off. That's when the explosions happened. . . . I knew something was going to happen. . . . It started to get dark, then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion.” Then, discussing her experiences during the collapse of the north tower, she said: “[There was] another explosion. That sent me and the two firefighters down the stairs. . . . I can't tell you how many times I got banged around. Each one of those explosions picked me up and threw me. . . . There was another explosion, and I got thrown with two firefighters out onto the street.
What got theme THROWN out onto the street and picked theme up and threw theme time after time?. A segeant from the U.S army and police officier, i THINK they know what bombs sound like to.
"Police officer and bowhunter Will Jimeno shares an eyewitness story of the 9/11 horrors and his own incredible struggle for survival beneath tons of Twin Tower debris.Five of us grabbed our air packs and helmets and other gear and headed out. We got on the elevator and went down to the Mall Level and made our way across toward Tower Two. As we turned into a connecting corridor leading to Tower One, we suddenly heard a terrible rumbling noise. I looked out onto the street and saw a fireball the size of my house hit the pavement. Then everything around us started shaking. "Run!" Sarge yelled. "Run to the left!"
http://www.bowhunter.com/feature_articles/BN_FromTheRubble/
Fireball the size of his house?
A guy that helped a person from the basement that had his skin "hanged of"
http://www.youtube.com/v/iMkyLLlowA8
A fire department batallion chief stated "it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see (redacted) I could see two sides of it and the other side, it just looked like that floor blew out" (what was in the redacted portion?). http*://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Dixon_Brian.txt
How could the fire damage from airplanes or their jet fuel have caused such extensive explosions over so many floors over such a long timeframe below the airplane impacts? most of the fuel spilled outside of the towers in the fireballs, and the rest supposedly lit the paper, rugs and other office contents of the twin towers on fire?. Given these facts, how could fires or jet fuel have caused the events described above by credible eyewitnesses?.
wcelliott dont watch America: Freedom to Fascism then, and call ed brown crasy all day. You are the one that dont know what reality is. Take 1 hour of your life and learn the truth about the banks.
QUOTE
. We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press—gone!'. .
http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/475.htm
Sounds big and heavy, but it's a press capable of exerting 50tons of force via a hydraulic jack.
It's about four feet high, and you could fit it in the trunk of your car.
Which has already been POINTED OUT TO MALMOJIHADI THE LAST TIME HE POSTED THIS CR@P!
All the other points have already been dealt with in this post the last time he posted it, too.
WHICH leads me to ask what his motivation is?
Is he actually interested in the TRUTH? If so, he'd have read the responses and would've known better than to re-post this nonsense again.
So, if not in pursuit of the Truth, why then is he reposting the same cr@p as before?
The answer is pretty obvious to me, he's looking for potential Jihadi-recruits. He has no interest in what really happened on 9/11, he's just casting a net to see what he can haul in. I doubt that he's from Sweden. I doubt he even lives there.
So, MalmoJihadi, what are the income taxes like in Sweden?
notsoquick
And CTers don't see what is really there , but whatever they want/need to support their hypothesis.
The WTC 1 tower antenna leaned over with the top structure, only from certain angles it appears to shorten. Looking at it from ALL angles soon dispels that falsehood. The Halva video shows only the third taillight of a BMW, not any reflection of a firetruck, it is legitimate and it definitively puts you and Ross's paper firmly in file 13(the round one under the desk) and 7 crumbled from front to back, seismic evidence gives a total of 18 seconds, it is only the last 6 of those seconds we can see starting when the East penthouse collapsed.
Before you get too far into the Ed Brown, here is the only comment on
http://www.questforfairtrialinconcordnh.blogspot.com/
And CTers don't see what is really there , but whatever they want/need to support their hypothesis.
The WTC 1 tower antenna leaned over with the top structure, only from certain angles it appears to shorten. Looking at it from ALL angles soon dispels that falsehood. The Halva video shows only the third taillight of a BMW, not any reflection of a firetruck, it is legitimate and it definitively puts you and Ross's paper firmly in file 13(the round one under the desk) and 7 crumbled from front to back, seismic evidence gives a total of 18 seconds, it is only the last 6 of those seconds we can see starting when the East penthouse collapsed.
Before you get too far into the Ed Brown, here is the only comment on
http://www.questforfairtrialinconcordnh.blogspot.com/
It was not a test at all it was a raid. The only reason it stopped was because of Mr. Dog Walker.
Where's all the supporters that are supposed to be surrounding Ed's house to protect them?
I'll tell you where they are - they are standing as far away as possible because of Ed's big mouth and all his ramblings about being a fiction, 9/11, Illuminati etc. etc.
Like I said before - Ed is his own worst enemy. When this started it was promising and on the right track. A movement was growing and people were being energized. However, Ed ruined all that.
Ed - I hope you are reading this. You sir are a ***** and soon you are going to be a dead ***** and your cause will be quickly forgotten because you yourself blew it. You are the blame.
Ed - look around at the tiny bit of support you have right now especially after a planned raid. That's all that will ever be there because of your foolishness.
What gets me really pissed off is the fact that your moronic actions tarnish the credibility of legitimate patriots.
What little respect I had for you, Reno and the rest has been replaced with embarrassment. You are an embarrassment to the true patriot movement in this country. I'm sure the founding father would feel the same way.
You only need 1000 pounds of high energy explosives
1) That'd be plenty for bomb-sniffing dogs to "alert" to, and the FBI doesn't own all the bomb-sniffing dogs in NYC. So please explain how they managed to get the dogs to cooperate with the coverup.
I am curious about bomb-sniffing dogs being used in the aftermath of 9/11.
If explosives had been used to bring down these three huge buildings, I wonder how dogs would have reacted to the presence of so much explosive residue (so that investigators could interpret their detections correctly). I.e., the residue would have been everywhere, would it not? Dogs are great for detecting bombs for security purposes, and they can detect explosive residue after a blast, but the WTC aftermath was a singular event of unprecedented proportion.
I heard they used dogs in the aftermath to do searches for rescue work, but for bomb-sniffing too?
Do you have a link that proves dogs were used in the aftermath for detection of explosive residues? I'd like to read about that.
THY WORD IS A LAMP UNTO MY FEET AND A LIGHT UNTO MY PATH
How much?
None.
Everything seen on 9/11 was directly attributable to aircraft impact damage + heat damage from the resulting fire.
Quantity of thermate necessary to explain the collapse = zero.
That kind of math I have no trouble with.
I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with your hand-waving. Have you ever considered getting a Ph.D. in Engineering, using your practical mathematics? The higher degree might enhance your earnings.
Not really, but when I went in to ask the Dean of Engineering whether the 3.80GPA in my graduate program would qualify for Cum Laude or Magna Cum Laude or what, he misunderstood the gist of my question and dedicated the next twenty minutes trying to get me to continue and pursue my PhD.
I used to tutor physics in engineering school, I had 20 students, 17 got "A's" in Engineering Physics, and I always felt that over-reliance on math tended to obscure the underlying physical phenomena, making it harder to understand than necessary. Most common/classical physics is pretty easy to describe in Plain English.
I don't really want or need a PhD, thanks, I've been a Senior Engineer since I was 4 years out of school with my Bachelors, and have either had "Senior" or "Director of Research" in my job title for the last 25 years.
Funny thing, the more intelligent/educated my colleagues are, the more respect they show me. It's the no-nothing-bozos who always seem to think they know more than I do.
http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/475.htm
Sounds big and heavy, but it's a press capable of exerting 50tons of force via a hydraulic jack.
It's about four feet high, and you could fit it in the trunk of your car.
Which has already been POINTED OUT TO MALMOJIHADI THE LAST TIME HE POSTED THIS CR@P!
All the other points have already been dealt with in this post the last time he posted it, too.
WHICH leads me to ask what his motivation is?
Is he actually interested in the TRUTH? If so, he'd have read the responses and would've known better than to re-post this nonsense again.
So, if not in pursuit of the Truth, why then is he reposting the same cr@p as before?
The answer is pretty obvious to me, he's looking for potential Jihadi-recruits. He has no interest in what really happened on 9/11, he's just casting a net to see what he can haul in. I doubt that he's from Sweden. I doubt he even lives there.
So, MalmoJihadi, what are the income taxes like in Sweden?
No you have NOT given an explanation to what LIFTED!!! people up and made theme travel through the AIR. And where the wind came from?. And why the parking garage was GONE. And you BS about the sound of explosions dosent work, the sound from that cant sound as much as an explosion. And there are NO evidence to your truss theory.
I know nothing about taxes here in Sweden so i cant say anything about that.
Read about your forefathers the militia that fought against the government real patriots. You need to wake up because its people like that that is going to take your country back if it gets real dark. Hopefully we can spread the information and wake people up and the people in power can get thrown out and replaced with good people. Its so sad that people picks the wrong side and goes to Iraq and fights, the police is brainwashed to but many police officers are wakeing up. There are no body that wants peace more then the militia and the truth movement we are the ones that understands the system, and read history about your funding fathers and forheaters and se if they dont agree, they live within us.
I believe that if the people of this nation fully understood what Congress has done to them over the last 49 years, they would move on Washington; they would not wait for an election... It adds up to a preconceived plan to destroy the economic and social independence of the United States! - George W. Malone
The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy. - Woodrow Wilson
That's pretty remarkable, that you live in Sweden and know nothing about the taxes there.
Sweden has one of the very highest tax rates in the world.
US taxes are, on-average, about half what the Swedes pay.
Sounds like you should concentrate on overthrowing the socialist government of Sweden, first, Malmo.
Do you mean the rail car? While you can make the different cars weigh different amounts, I don't see any very good way to change the Velcro (maybe different sizes would work).
But why do you ask?
Because if your model is incompatible with a rapidly decreasing E1, and yet that is what the seismic record tells us, then your model is wrong.
I hope you realize that what you're describing is exactly what I've described several times already.
The shock waves traveling through the structure travel at the speed of sound in steel, 20,000fps.
Compressive waves (P-waves) go through the structure at/near the speed of sound in steel, transverse waves (S-waves) go through more slowly, as the building structure is less-stiff in the transverse mode. Hence, when a structural member fails under load, that load gets transmitted to ground level at 20,000fps as a P-wave, but the S-wave goes much slower, but would also die out much slower as well. (Here is where a good FEA model would come in handy.)
The compressive wave travels through the structure like a wave through a waveguide, and when the wave hits the basement, the basement would act as an impedance mismatch, causing the wave to reflect back into the structure. The impedance mismatch of tower:basement happens before the basement:foundation, so the tower:basement mismatch limits the amount of energy that could be dissipated into the mud below the "bathtub".
You are correct in observing that the rubble at the crush zone would absorb most of the energy of the impulse (contributing to cominution). That, plus the other contents of the building that don't match the impedance of the structure, which also includes people getting knocked off their feet, and 50-ton presses getting bounced off their bases.
And guess what that would sound like to people inside the structure? A loud BANG!, followed by rumbling and the floor swaying back and forth.
Think the average observer inside the building would understand this phenomenon well enough to recognize that the source of the BANG!s aren't explosives, but are caused by structural members failing under load? Or would the average guy hear BANG! and say "It sounded like a BOMB went off!", and then we end up with 300 pages of this stuff, including self-righteous white-supremist revolutionary rhetoric advocating Revolution and anarchy.
Yeesh! I wish more people took high school physics.
I don't see 'constant' seismic input. What we know is that exterior wall sections fell down in free fall. So we see some waves from that. Then the main arrival, which gives a stronger signal. The rest of the record is useless regarding further interpretation.
I should have been more specific. The South tower does, indeed, show some increase during 'crush down'. Just eye-balling it, it doesn't look like nearly enough to compensate for the implications of an accelerating front.
The picture I had previously measured was that of the North Tower. Looking at it again, this time at 18x magnification, for my particular screen capture, here is what I get...
after the 'a':
First peak at 22 pixels
2nd peak at 21 pixels
3rd peak at 21 pixels
4th peak at 21 pixels
5th peak at 21 pixels
6th peak at 21 pixels
7th peak at 21 pixels
troughs at 27 pixels
After these peaks, there is a wide region, apparently containing 2 peaks, at 24 pixels, so there is a significant diminution of the seismic amplitude.
Looks kind of constant to me! What do you get when you measure it?
QUOTE
The OCTs deny what the eyes see and instead "see" unproven theoretics and math equations.
The WTC1 antenna falling first is another example, and so is the the reflection of the emergency vehicle in the Hlava video, but WTC7 coming down is the standard of their blindness.
The WTC1 antenna falling first is another example, and so is the the reflection of the emergency vehicle in the Hlava video, but WTC7 coming down is the standard of their blindness.
And CTers don't see what is really there , but whatever they want/need to support their hypothesis.
The WTC 1 tower antenna leaned over with the top structure, only from certain angles it appears to shorten. Looking at it from ALL angles soon dispels that falsehood. The Halva video shows only the third taillight of a BMW, not any reflection of a firetruck, it is legitimate and it definitively puts you and Ross's paper firmly in file 13(the round one under the desk) and 7 crumbled from front to back, seismic evidence gives a total of 18 seconds, it is only the last 6 of those seconds we can see starting when the East penthouse collapsed.
Before you get too far into the Ed Brown, here is the only comment on
http://www.questforfairtrialinconcordnh.blogspot.com/
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The OCTs deny what the eyes see and instead "see" unproven theoretics and math equations. The WTC1 antenna falling first is another example, and so is the the reflection of the emergency vehicle in the Hlava video, but WTC7 coming down is the standard of their blindness. |
And CTers don't see what is really there , but whatever they want/need to support their hypothesis.
The WTC 1 tower antenna leaned over with the top structure, only from certain angles it appears to shorten. Looking at it from ALL angles soon dispels that falsehood. The Halva video shows only the third taillight of a BMW, not any reflection of a firetruck, it is legitimate and it definitively puts you and Ross's paper firmly in file 13(the round one under the desk) and 7 crumbled from front to back, seismic evidence gives a total of 18 seconds, it is only the last 6 of those seconds we can see starting when the East penthouse collapsed.
Before you get too far into the Ed Brown, here is the only comment on
http://www.questforfairtrialinconcordnh.blogspot.com/
It was not a test at all it was a raid. The only reason it stopped was because of Mr. Dog Walker.
Where's all the supporters that are supposed to be surrounding Ed's house to protect them?
I'll tell you where they are - they are standing as far away as possible because of Ed's big mouth and all his ramblings about being a fiction, 9/11, Illuminati etc. etc.
Like I said before - Ed is his own worst enemy. When this started it was promising and on the right track. A movement was growing and people were being energized. However, Ed ruined all that.
Ed - I hope you are reading this. You sir are a ***** and soon you are going to be a dead ***** and your cause will be quickly forgotten because you yourself blew it. You are the blame.
Ed - look around at the tiny bit of support you have right now especially after a planned raid. That's all that will ever be there because of your foolishness.
What gets me really pissed off is the fact that your moronic actions tarnish the credibility of legitimate patriots.
What little respect I had for you, Reno and the rest has been replaced with embarrassment. You are an embarrassment to the true patriot movement in this country. I'm sure the founding father would feel the same way.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 11:18 AM)
QUOTE
You only need 1000 pounds of high energy explosives
1) That'd be plenty for bomb-sniffing dogs to "alert" to, and the FBI doesn't own all the bomb-sniffing dogs in NYC. So please explain how they managed to get the dogs to cooperate with the coverup.
I am curious about bomb-sniffing dogs being used in the aftermath of 9/11.
If explosives had been used to bring down these three huge buildings, I wonder how dogs would have reacted to the presence of so much explosive residue (so that investigators could interpret their detections correctly). I.e., the residue would have been everywhere, would it not? Dogs are great for detecting bombs for security purposes, and they can detect explosive residue after a blast, but the WTC aftermath was a singular event of unprecedented proportion.
I heard they used dogs in the aftermath to do searches for rescue work, but for bomb-sniffing too?
Do you have a link that proves dogs were used in the aftermath for detection of explosive residues? I'd like to read about that.
THY WORD IS A LAMP UNTO MY FEET AND A LIGHT UNTO MY PATH
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 9 2007, 06:05 PM)
How much?
None.
Everything seen on 9/11 was directly attributable to aircraft impact damage + heat damage from the resulting fire.
Quantity of thermate necessary to explain the collapse = zero.
That kind of math I have no trouble with.
I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with your hand-waving. Have you ever considered getting a Ph.D. in Engineering, using your practical mathematics? The higher degree might enhance your earnings.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 9 2007, 06:01 PM)
Ok, here is how. Obtain a Physics 101 lab rail car setup. (There are also air car setups, which are more expensive and, I think, less suitable for this experiment.) You'll also need a very good pulley, stout string (I recommend surf line), a weight pans and a set of lab weights.
Arrange this on, say, the right end of your lab bench so that the pulley hangs out into the air. Attach some twine to a rail car (arrange it to be hooked to a tower your build on the rail car), over the pulley, and attached to the hanging pan. Put a weight in the pan and observe the motion. This should give you an estimate for the friction losses.
These rail cars come with snaps to which Velcro bands can be attached. Position a intermediate rail car, both cars having Velcro in place. Observe and measure the momentum effects as the original car moves from left to right. Now try a third (and if the rail is long enough, a fourth) car, all with Velcro.
Repeat without Velcro if that interests you, but the original, inelastic experiments, with careful measurements, should fit into the crush-down equation fairly well. (Do not expect to get better than about 5--10% agreement with the equation.)
I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear (if not,ask) and I am looking forward to the results of your experiment (which, by the way, you could write up and publish in The Physics Teacher or another peer-reviewed journal. (If you are trying to get into grad school, having such a citation in your c.v. will certainly help!)
How does this allow us to confirm the behavior E1 wrt time? You know very well that in reality, this must increase, in general. If you can come up with a simple test of your model that is capable of determining this for a complex structure like the WTC, do tell us about it.
Your analysis showing that stretching a piece of velcro behaves mathematically just like columns buckling during a collapse is conspicuously absent. As should be clear to you by now, even if you could manage this, we still wouldn't buy it. But you don't even do that much.
If you really believe such an experiment can validate a model of WTC collapse, why not do the experiment yourself, and write it up for publication? However, before you do that, I suggest you check with Bazant. After all, if you come up with a bogus test that misses the point, entirely, this will reflect badly on him, as he is now your co-author.
Arrange this on, say, the right end of your lab bench so that the pulley hangs out into the air. Attach some twine to a rail car (arrange it to be hooked to a tower your build on the rail car), over the pulley, and attached to the hanging pan. Put a weight in the pan and observe the motion. This should give you an estimate for the friction losses.
These rail cars come with snaps to which Velcro bands can be attached. Position a intermediate rail car, both cars having Velcro in place. Observe and measure the momentum effects as the original car moves from left to right. Now try a third (and if the rail is long enough, a fourth) car, all with Velcro.
Repeat without Velcro if that interests you, but the original, inelastic experiments, with careful measurements, should fit into the crush-down equation fairly well. (Do not expect to get better than about 5--10% agreement with the equation.)
I hope the explanation is sufficiently clear (if not,ask) and I am looking forward to the results of your experiment (which, by the way, you could write up and publish in The Physics Teacher or another peer-reviewed journal. (If you are trying to get into grad school, having such a citation in your c.v. will certainly help!)
How does this allow us to confirm the behavior E1 wrt time? You know very well that in reality, this must increase, in general. If you can come up with a simple test of your model that is capable of determining this for a complex structure like the WTC, do tell us about it.
Your analysis showing that stretching a piece of velcro behaves mathematically just like columns buckling during a collapse is conspicuously absent. As should be clear to you by now, even if you could manage this, we still wouldn't buy it. But you don't even do that much.
If you really believe such an experiment can validate a model of WTC collapse, why not do the experiment yourself, and write it up for publication? However, before you do that, I suggest you check with Bazant. After all, if you come up with a bogus test that misses the point, entirely, this will reflect badly on him, as he is now your co-author.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 10 2007, 11:01 PM)
As should be clear to you by now, even if you could manage this, we still wouldn't buy it.
Yes, it is completely clear to be that you are not interested in empirically obtained truth, but rather only pre-ordained troof!
I don't have time to do the experiments. If I did them, you'd probably find something objectionable about the results. You are the one demanding more tests. Go do them!
There is nothing in the crush-down equation that requires the resistive force to increase over time. The simplest simulations don't bother and using the more complex energy consumption models only increases the crush-down time for WTC 1 by 2 seconds. The rail car setup was something I thought up as inexpensive and practical. So for that you get all testy...
Yes, it is completely clear to be that you are not interested in empirically obtained truth, but rather only pre-ordained troof!
I don't have time to do the experiments. If I did them, you'd probably find something objectionable about the results. You are the one demanding more tests. Go do them!
There is nothing in the crush-down equation that requires the resistive force to increase over time. The simplest simulations don't bother and using the more complex energy consumption models only increases the crush-down time for WTC 1 by 2 seconds. The rail car setup was something I thought up as inexpensive and practical. So for that you get all testy...
QUOTE (shagster+Jun 9 2007, 02:52 PM)
So now you're contending that a significant amount of energy was dissipated in fracturing the bedrock while the collapse front was moving downward?
I'm contending that's possible (along with other energy-absorbing phenomena that may not readily transfer to seismic waves), and it would be nice to know.
When I was a kid, I tried hammering a nail into our concrete basement. Couldn't do it. Where did that energy go? I don't know, but I'd like to. My guess is most of it went into chipping (fracturing)*, though some went into deforming the nail.
Normally, one thinks of dropping an object on the ground resulting in a "thud", not a "boing". It may be that "hammering" the WTC frame into the ground was a very inefficient way to generate a seismic disturbance.
In any event, the rate of seismic energy generated during "crush down" varied very little. What do you make of that?
* I couldn't drive the nail in, but a small amount chipped away.
I'm contending that's possible (along with other energy-absorbing phenomena that may not readily transfer to seismic waves), and it would be nice to know.
When I was a kid, I tried hammering a nail into our concrete basement. Couldn't do it. Where did that energy go? I don't know, but I'd like to. My guess is most of it went into chipping (fracturing)*, though some went into deforming the nail.
Normally, one thinks of dropping an object on the ground resulting in a "thud", not a "boing". It may be that "hammering" the WTC frame into the ground was a very inefficient way to generate a seismic disturbance.
In any event, the rate of seismic energy generated during "crush down" varied very little. What do you make of that?
* I couldn't drive the nail in, but a small amount chipped away.
QUOTE
Have you ever considered getting a Ph.D. in Engineering
Not really, but when I went in to ask the Dean of Engineering whether the 3.80GPA in my graduate program would qualify for Cum Laude or Magna Cum Laude or what, he misunderstood the gist of my question and dedicated the next twenty minutes trying to get me to continue and pursue my PhD.
I used to tutor physics in engineering school, I had 20 students, 17 got "A's" in Engineering Physics, and I always felt that over-reliance on math tended to obscure the underlying physical phenomena, making it harder to understand than necessary. Most common/classical physics is pretty easy to describe in Plain English.
I don't really want or need a PhD, thanks, I've been a Senior Engineer since I was 4 years out of school with my Bachelors, and have either had "Senior" or "Director of Research" in my job title for the last 25 years.
Funny thing, the more intelligent/educated my colleagues are, the more respect they show me. It's the no-nothing-bozos who always seem to think they know more than I do.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 10 2007, 11:15 PM)
Yes, it is completely clear to be that you are not interested in empirically obtained truth, but rather only pre-ordained troof!
I don't have time to do the experiments. If I did them, you'd probably find something objectionable about the results. You are the one demanding more tests. Go do them!
There is nothing in the crush-down equation that requires the resistive force to increase over time. The simplest simulations don't bother and using the more complex energy consumption models only increases the crush-down time for WTC 1 by 2 seconds. The rail car setup was something I thought up as inexpensive and practical. So for that you get all testy...
Come now, Benson, even if you have perfect confidence in your model, don't you think that some other OCT'er, who may harbor a whisper of a hint of a suggestion of doubt, might welcome further testing?
It's kind of obvious none of them will help with an FEA analysis of the collapse. (To be fair, probably a HUGE amount of work.) But some of them might be willing to investigate in the vein I've recently posted on.
Then again, maybe Bazant will surprise all of us and coauthor a paper with you on the pulley/velcro/car verification experiment.
I don't have time to do the experiments. If I did them, you'd probably find something objectionable about the results. You are the one demanding more tests. Go do them!
There is nothing in the crush-down equation that requires the resistive force to increase over time. The simplest simulations don't bother and using the more complex energy consumption models only increases the crush-down time for WTC 1 by 2 seconds. The rail car setup was something I thought up as inexpensive and practical. So for that you get all testy...
Come now, Benson, even if you have perfect confidence in your model, don't you think that some other OCT'er, who may harbor a whisper of a hint of a suggestion of doubt, might welcome further testing?
It's kind of obvious none of them will help with an FEA analysis of the collapse. (To be fair, probably a HUGE amount of work.) But some of them might be willing to investigate in the vein I've recently posted on.
Then again, maybe Bazant will surprise all of us and coauthor a paper with you on the pulley/velcro/car verification experiment.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 10 2007, 11:33 PM)
But some of them might be willing to investigate in the vein I've recently posted on.
I certainly hope not. Your thoughts are confused.
Doing some actual lab work might help clarify them...
I certainly hope not. Your thoughts are confused.
Doing some actual lab work might help clarify them...
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 10 2007, 09:52 PM)
Not quite what NIST states in NCSTAR1-3B. The tremendous buckling is considered to have occurred at the beginning of crush-up, although NIST states it differently.
Incidentally, C-88a and one other column both help to support the crush-up/crush-down hypothesis for the collapses.
Incidentally, C-88a and one other column both help to support the crush-up/crush-down hypothesis for the collapses.
You're right, I got the plane impact location reversed. It was actually the lower C-88b column that was suspected of being impacted according to NCSTAR 1-3C, ch 4.1.1.
Given the location of the splice of C-88a/C-88b in relation to the plane impact, it is puzzling that it remained intact considering the strength of the column splices as defined by Dr. Astaneh.
Given the location of the splice of C-88a/C-88b in relation to the plane impact, it is puzzling that it remained intact considering the strength of the column splices as defined by Dr. Astaneh.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 10 2007, 10:24 PM)
http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/475.htm
Sounds big and heavy, but it's a press capable of exerting 50tons of force via a hydraulic jack.
It's about four feet high, and you could fit it in the trunk of your car.
Which has already been POINTED OUT TO MALMOJIHADI THE LAST TIME HE POSTED THIS CR@P!
All the other points have already been dealt with in this post the last time he posted it, too.
WHICH leads me to ask what his motivation is?
Is he actually interested in the TRUTH? If so, he'd have read the responses and would've known better than to re-post this nonsense again.
So, if not in pursuit of the Truth, why then is he reposting the same cr@p as before?
The answer is pretty obvious to me, he's looking for potential Jihadi-recruits. He has no interest in what really happened on 9/11, he's just casting a net to see what he can haul in. I doubt that he's from Sweden. I doubt he even lives there.
So, MalmoJihadi, what are the income taxes like in Sweden?
No you have NOT given an explanation to what LIFTED!!! people up and made theme travel through the AIR. And where the wind came from?. And why the parking garage was GONE. And you BS about the sound of explosions dosent work, the sound from that cant sound as much as an explosion. And there are NO evidence to your truss theory.
I know nothing about taxes here in Sweden so i cant say anything about that.
Read about your forefathers the militia that fought against the government real patriots. You need to wake up because its people like that that is going to take your country back if it gets real dark. Hopefully we can spread the information and wake people up and the people in power can get thrown out and replaced with good people. Its so sad that people picks the wrong side and goes to Iraq and fights, the police is brainwashed to but many police officers are wakeing up. There are no body that wants peace more then the militia and the truth movement we are the ones that understands the system, and read history about your funding fathers and forheaters and se if they dont agree, they live within us.
I believe that if the people of this nation fully understood what Congress has done to them over the last 49 years, they would move on Washington; they would not wait for an election... It adds up to a preconceived plan to destroy the economic and social independence of the United States! - George W. Malone
The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy. - Woodrow Wilson
QUOTE
I know nothing about taxes here in Sweden so i cant say anything about that.
That's pretty remarkable, that you live in Sweden and know nothing about the taxes there.
Sweden has one of the very highest tax rates in the world.
US taxes are, on-average, about half what the Swedes pay.
Sounds like you should concentrate on overthrowing the socialist government of Sweden, first, Malmo.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jun 10 2007, 11:48 PM)
Given the location of the splice of C-88a/C-88b in relation to the plane impact, it is puzzling that it remained intact considering the strength of the column splices as defined by Dr. Astaneh.
As characterized, not defined.
As I read NIST about this, the airplane hit hard enough to shatter the column without, somehow, transferring much energy up the column to the splice. Even more impressive is that this splice survived the buckling event. I dunno how...
As characterized, not defined.
As I read NIST about this, the airplane hit hard enough to shatter the column without, somehow, transferring much energy up the column to the splice. Even more impressive is that this splice survived the buckling event. I dunno how...
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 10 2007, 11:21 PM)
It may be that "hammering" the WTC frame into the ground was a very inefficient way to generate a seismic disturbance.
In any event, the rate of seismic energy generated during "crush down" varied very little.
1) Yes, since only about a millionth of the PE went into the seismic event.
2) What makes you think so?
In any event, the rate of seismic energy generated during "crush down" varied very little.
1) Yes, since only about a millionth of the PE went into the seismic event.
2) What makes you think so?
QUOTE (Malmoesoldier+Jun 10 2007, 06:04 PM)
You only need 1000 pounds of high energy explosives
It may have taken less than 200 lbs of high explosives to collapse the towers, but since we witnessed thousands of times that energy released by the plane impacts and the fires, why even consider explosives? And then there's that nagging fact of no evidence of explosives.
It may have taken less than 200 lbs of high explosives to collapse the towers, but since we witnessed thousands of times that energy released by the plane impacts and the fires, why even consider explosives? And then there's that nagging fact of no evidence of explosives.
QUOTE (Capracus+Jun 11 2007, 12:10 AM)
It may have taken less than 200 lbs of high explosives to collapse the towers, ...
Yes, 0 is less than 200.
Yes, 0 is less than 200.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 10 2007, 11:40 PM)
I certainly hope not. Your thoughts are confused.
Doing some actual lab work might help clarify them...
Is your model compatible with an E1 value that drops by an order of magnitude as the collapse progresses, or isn't it?
Doing some actual lab work might help clarify them...
Is your model compatible with an E1 value that drops by an order of magnitude as the collapse progresses, or isn't it?
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 11 2007, 12:32 AM)
Is your model compatible with an E1 value that drops by an order of magnitude as the collapse progresses, or isn't it?
Do you mean the rail car? While you can make the different cars weigh different amounts, I don't see any very good way to change the Velcro (maybe different sizes would work).
But why do you ask?
Do you mean the rail car? While you can make the different cars weigh different amounts, I don't see any very good way to change the Velcro (maybe different sizes would work).
But why do you ask?
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 12:00 AM)
As characterized, not defined.
As I read NIST about this, the airplane hit hard enough to shatter the column without, somehow, transferring much energy up the column to the splice. Even more impressive is that this splice survived the buckling event. I dunno how...
Considering that the column segment is no longer anchored on its lower end due to the plane impact, what secures it to be so deformed by the collapse? It seems possible that the column is driven down by the collapse to a point where the lower end (2ft. from the splice) becomes wedged securely enough to be deformed by the collapse, but limits the leverage on the splice.
As I read NIST about this, the airplane hit hard enough to shatter the column without, somehow, transferring much energy up the column to the splice. Even more impressive is that this splice survived the buckling event. I dunno how...
Considering that the column segment is no longer anchored on its lower end due to the plane impact, what secures it to be so deformed by the collapse? It seems possible that the column is driven down by the collapse to a point where the lower end (2ft. from the splice) becomes wedged securely enough to be deformed by the collapse, but limits the leverage on the splice.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 12:05 AM)
1) Yes, since only about a millionth of the PE went into the seismic event.
I should have been clearer. The energy transferred through the wTC frame into the ground may have been very inefficiently converted into seismic activity. When you hit a nail into concrete, bending it slightly, where does the energy go? I believe most of it goes into concrete. But if, say, 45% of that energy is dissipated as a wave which attenuates 90% within 10 feet, and if 45% goes into fracturing (chipping the concrete), and if 5% goes into deforming the nail, and if only the remaining 5% goes into wave phenomena associated with earthquakes, then I'd call that rather inefficient into seismic activity.
2) What makes you think so?
What makes me think so? I've already written about this twice. What does Figure 6d) tell you? And with what degree of confidence can you state whatever opinion you may have?
I should have been clearer. The energy transferred through the wTC frame into the ground may have been very inefficiently converted into seismic activity. When you hit a nail into concrete, bending it slightly, where does the energy go? I believe most of it goes into concrete. But if, say, 45% of that energy is dissipated as a wave which attenuates 90% within 10 feet, and if 45% goes into fracturing (chipping the concrete), and if 5% goes into deforming the nail, and if only the remaining 5% goes into wave phenomena associated with earthquakes, then I'd call that rather inefficient into seismic activity.
QUOTE
2) What makes you think so?
What makes me think so? I've already written about this twice. What does Figure 6d) tell you? And with what degree of confidence can you state whatever opinion you may have?
Instituyion of Mechanical Engineers
states that they expect all members to commit to
Professionalism
Integrity
Highest ethical standards
states that they expect all members to commit to
Professionalism
Integrity
Highest ethical standards
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 11 2007, 12:48 AM)
What does Figure 6d) tell you?
My confidence first. I took a one-quarter geology course from Bob Sharp in 1961. It made me into a life-long amateur geologist. Of course, seismology was a substantial part of the lectures. Beno Gutenberg invited groups of students in the class to his house for dinner. He had his own seismograph occupying a significant portion of his modest house.
In the last 1.5 years, I've renewed and updated what I previously knew about seismology. I know enough, then, not to try to seriously interpret seismograph records without the use of all three directions, not just one, and with appropriate spectral filters.
However, the main thing to say is that there is no obvious initial P wave, so it is not an earthquake nor the result of an underground explosion. Being superficial, no S-wave is to be expected. So these records must be surface waves, some mixture of Love waves and Rayleigh waves. The surface waves are the slowest and the two types do not propagate at the quite the same speed.
Also, the bedrock is anisotropically elastic, so after the surface waves finally arrive from a sudden seismic event, the waves continue for some time before dissipating.
Finally, there is no Figure 6d. You mean Figure 6b. I try not to read too much into it. The text pushes the interpretation fairly hard. I prefer relying on the audio portion of videos, but that data came along too late for this paper.
I don't see 'constant' seismic input. What we know is that exterior wall sections fell down in free fall. So we see some waves from that. Then the main arrival, which gives a stronger signal. The rest of the record is useless regarding further interpretation.
My confidence first. I took a one-quarter geology course from Bob Sharp in 1961. It made me into a life-long amateur geologist. Of course, seismology was a substantial part of the lectures. Beno Gutenberg invited groups of students in the class to his house for dinner. He had his own seismograph occupying a significant portion of his modest house.
In the last 1.5 years, I've renewed and updated what I previously knew about seismology. I know enough, then, not to try to seriously interpret seismograph records without the use of all three directions, not just one, and with appropriate spectral filters.
However, the main thing to say is that there is no obvious initial P wave, so it is not an earthquake nor the result of an underground explosion. Being superficial, no S-wave is to be expected. So these records must be surface waves, some mixture of Love waves and Rayleigh waves. The surface waves are the slowest and the two types do not propagate at the quite the same speed.
Also, the bedrock is anisotropically elastic, so after the surface waves finally arrive from a sudden seismic event, the waves continue for some time before dissipating.
Finally, there is no Figure 6d. You mean Figure 6b. I try not to read too much into it. The text pushes the interpretation fairly hard. I prefer relying on the audio portion of videos, but that data came along too late for this paper.
I don't see 'constant' seismic input. What we know is that exterior wall sections fell down in free fall. So we see some waves from that. Then the main arrival, which gives a stronger signal. The rest of the record is useless regarding further interpretation.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 12:39 AM)
Do you mean the rail car? While you can make the different cars weigh different amounts, I don't see any very good way to change the Velcro (maybe different sizes would work).
But why do you ask?
Because if your model is incompatible with a rapidly decreasing E1, and yet that is what the seismic record tells us, then your model is wrong.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 12:16 AM)
Yes, 0 is less than 200. 
To put it into an acceptable context for you, it could have taken less than 200 lbs of explosives if they had been used.
To put it into an acceptable context for you, it could have taken less than 200 lbs of explosives if they had been used.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 10 2007, 09:36 PM)
Pierre-Normand --- Changing the top block size by a story or two makes little difference, even for WTC 1 and even if the excess mass at the top of the tower is ignored.
Thank you Dr Benson,
It would be my expectation that the difference in the initial acceleration rate from changing the block size would be smaller if the excess mass at the top was considered. That would make the weight of one lower storey less significant in comparison with the whole weight of the block. (Your "even" quialifier must have meant "one way or another")
Would it be correct to expect, also, that considering the crush-up of a few stories above the failure zone taking place concurrently with the initial crush-down phase would also make little difference? That would be because while the upper block would be shortening, the dynamic load on the B-Zone would be reduced somewhat in proportion, and this would slow the initial acceleration of the crush-down front in a way that compensates for the reduction of the upper block?
Thank you Dr Benson,
It would be my expectation that the difference in the initial acceleration rate from changing the block size would be smaller if the excess mass at the top was considered. That would make the weight of one lower storey less significant in comparison with the whole weight of the block. (Your "even" quialifier must have meant "one way or another")
Would it be correct to expect, also, that considering the crush-up of a few stories above the failure zone taking place concurrently with the initial crush-down phase would also make little difference? That would be because while the upper block would be shortening, the dynamic load on the B-Zone would be reduced somewhat in proportion, and this would slow the initial acceleration of the crush-down front in a way that compensates for the reduction of the upper block?
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 12:00 AM)
As characterized, not defined.
As I read NIST about this, the airplane hit hard enough to shatter the column without, somehow, transferring much energy up the column to the splice. Even more impressive is that this splice survived the buckling event. I dunno how...
If I could venture a guess about this, consider the load-displacement diagram represented as Fig.3 in Bazant and Verdure.
The first high strain-rate impact produced the initial buckling away from the splice, as you mention, and thus produced a geometry that is represented past the u_c point in the diagram. That is, at that point, the load displacement ratio is already much reduced, being situated past the normal peak (F_0) of the elastic response from axial-loading. So, subsequent buckling occurring during the collapse and/or while the column hits the rubble pile would have occurred under reduced load and taken place at the locations of the already established plastic hinges.
(IOW, only before the onset of plastic buckling, and before the formation of hinges, can stress from axial loading be spread more or less uniformly (I suppose) among the column length such that weaker splices are liable to fail first.)
As I read NIST about this, the airplane hit hard enough to shatter the column without, somehow, transferring much energy up the column to the splice. Even more impressive is that this splice survived the buckling event. I dunno how...
If I could venture a guess about this, consider the load-displacement diagram represented as Fig.3 in Bazant and Verdure.
The first high strain-rate impact produced the initial buckling away from the splice, as you mention, and thus produced a geometry that is represented past the u_c point in the diagram. That is, at that point, the load displacement ratio is already much reduced, being situated past the normal peak (F_0) of the elastic response from axial-loading. So, subsequent buckling occurring during the collapse and/or while the column hits the rubble pile would have occurred under reduced load and taken place at the locations of the already established plastic hinges.
(IOW, only before the onset of plastic buckling, and before the formation of hinges, can stress from axial loading be spread more or less uniformly (I suppose) among the column length such that weaker splices are liable to fail first.)
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 11 2007, 06:10 AM)
(IOW, only before the onset of plastic buckling, and before the formation of hinges, can stress from axial loading be spread more or less uniformly (I suppose) among the column length such that weaker splices are liable to fail first.)
"among the column length"
*Along* the column length...
"among the column length"
*Along* the column length...
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 10 2007, 11:21 PM)
I'm contending that's possible (along with other energy-absorbing phenomena that may not readily transfer to seismic waves), and it would be nice to know.
When I was a kid, I tried hammering a nail into our concrete basement. Couldn't do it. Where did that energy go? I don't know, but I'd like to. My guess is most of it went into chipping (fracturing)*, though some went into deforming the nail.
Normally, one thinks of dropping an object on the ground resulting in a "thud", not a "boing". It may be that "hammering" the WTC frame into the ground was a very inefficient way to generate a seismic disturbance.
In any event, the rate of seismic energy generated during "crush down" varied very little. What do you make of that?
* I couldn't drive the nail in, but a small amount chipped away.
a hammer that bounces back vibrates like crazy.
i've mentioned how energy can be dissipated in vibrations before.
when you drive a nail in with one blow, the hammer doesn't vibrate hardly at all. it feels good. i put a tongue and groove wood roof on a double arena in the 80's. ah, the joys of simplicity. hands on work like that is not different than being in a lab, if you're applying the same thought processes.
oh right. cymbals and gongs are a good example of where the energy goes. it phase cancels itself out by bouncing back and forth within the (highly elastic) medium.
When I was a kid, I tried hammering a nail into our concrete basement. Couldn't do it. Where did that energy go? I don't know, but I'd like to. My guess is most of it went into chipping (fracturing)*, though some went into deforming the nail.
Normally, one thinks of dropping an object on the ground resulting in a "thud", not a "boing". It may be that "hammering" the WTC frame into the ground was a very inefficient way to generate a seismic disturbance.
In any event, the rate of seismic energy generated during "crush down" varied very little. What do you make of that?
* I couldn't drive the nail in, but a small amount chipped away.
a hammer that bounces back vibrates like crazy.
i've mentioned how energy can be dissipated in vibrations before.
when you drive a nail in with one blow, the hammer doesn't vibrate hardly at all. it feels good. i put a tongue and groove wood roof on a double arena in the 80's. ah, the joys of simplicity. hands on work like that is not different than being in a lab, if you're applying the same thought processes.
oh right. cymbals and gongs are a good example of where the energy goes. it phase cancels itself out by bouncing back and forth within the (highly elastic) medium.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 11 2007, 12:48 AM)
I should have been clearer. The energy transferred through the wTC frame into the ground may have been very inefficiently converted into seismic activity. When you hit a nail into concrete, bending it slightly, where does the energy go? I believe most of it goes into concrete. But if, say, 45% of that energy is dissipated as a wave which attenuates 90% within 10 feet, and if 45% goes into fracturing (chipping the concrete), and if 5% goes into deforming the nail, and if only the remaining 5% goes into wave phenomena associated with earthquakes, then I'd call that rather inefficient into seismic activity.
What makes me think so? I've already written about this twice. What does Figure 6d) tell you? And with what degree of confidence can you state whatever opinion you may have?
hey.
sorry. i see you're on top of your game, here. just want to remind you that mass is the key. most of the energy goes into the more movable object, as it is the path of least resistance.
given that bedrock is pretty stiff/elastic that is, and efficient at not deforming. mud would be the opposite, and would absorb the energy through a multitude of tiny momentum transfers, each generating some heat.
in the case of the towers, that means, that energy not being dissipated into the earth, is dissipating in momentum transfers of the highly elastic, non-deformed steel.
in other words, it bounces back up into the falling material more than it transfers into the bedrock.
vibration is an energy sink that is being completely ignored, imo.
i'm out on a limb with this post, but i'm fairly confident i'm on the right track.
What makes me think so? I've already written about this twice. What does Figure 6d) tell you? And with what degree of confidence can you state whatever opinion you may have?
hey.
sorry. i see you're on top of your game, here. just want to remind you that mass is the key. most of the energy goes into the more movable object, as it is the path of least resistance.
given that bedrock is pretty stiff/elastic that is, and efficient at not deforming. mud would be the opposite, and would absorb the energy through a multitude of tiny momentum transfers, each generating some heat.
in the case of the towers, that means, that energy not being dissipated into the earth, is dissipating in momentum transfers of the highly elastic, non-deformed steel.
in other words, it bounces back up into the falling material more than it transfers into the bedrock.
vibration is an energy sink that is being completely ignored, imo.
i'm out on a limb with this post, but i'm fairly confident i'm on the right track.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 12:49 AM)
Instituyion{sic} of Mechanical Engineers
states that they expect all members to commit to
Professionalism
Integrity
Highest ethical standards
more than 50% of married couples screw around on their significant other.
states that they expect all members to commit to
Professionalism
Integrity
Highest ethical standards
more than 50% of married couples screw around on their significant other.
QUOTE
it phase cancels itself out by bouncing back and forth within the (highly elastic) medium.
I hope you realize that what you're describing is exactly what I've described several times already.
The shock waves traveling through the structure travel at the speed of sound in steel, 20,000fps.
Compressive waves (P-waves) go through the structure at/near the speed of sound in steel, transverse waves (S-waves) go through more slowly, as the building structure is less-stiff in the transverse mode. Hence, when a structural member fails under load, that load gets transmitted to ground level at 20,000fps as a P-wave, but the S-wave goes much slower, but would also die out much slower as well. (Here is where a good FEA model would come in handy.)
The compressive wave travels through the structure like a wave through a waveguide, and when the wave hits the basement, the basement would act as an impedance mismatch, causing the wave to reflect back into the structure. The impedance mismatch of tower:basement happens before the basement:foundation, so the tower:basement mismatch limits the amount of energy that could be dissipated into the mud below the "bathtub".
You are correct in observing that the rubble at the crush zone would absorb most of the energy of the impulse (contributing to cominution). That, plus the other contents of the building that don't match the impedance of the structure, which also includes people getting knocked off their feet, and 50-ton presses getting bounced off their bases.
And guess what that would sound like to people inside the structure? A loud BANG!, followed by rumbling and the floor swaying back and forth.
Think the average observer inside the building would understand this phenomenon well enough to recognize that the source of the BANG!s aren't explosives, but are caused by structural members failing under load? Or would the average guy hear BANG! and say "It sounded like a BOMB went off!", and then we end up with 300 pages of this stuff, including self-righteous white-supremist revolutionary rhetoric advocating Revolution and anarchy.
Yeesh! I wish more people took high school physics.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 01:12 AM)
I don't see 'constant' seismic input. What we know is that exterior wall sections fell down in free fall. So we see some waves from that. Then the main arrival, which gives a stronger signal. The rest of the record is useless regarding further interpretation.
I should have been more specific. The South tower does, indeed, show some increase during 'crush down'. Just eye-balling it, it doesn't look like nearly enough to compensate for the implications of an accelerating front.
The picture I had previously measured was that of the North Tower. Looking at it again, this time at 18x magnification, for my particular screen capture, here is what I get...
after the 'a':
First peak at 22 pixels
2nd peak at 21 pixels
3rd peak at 21 pixels
4th peak at 21 pixels
5th peak at 21 pixels
6th peak at 21 pixels
7th peak at 21 pixels
troughs at 27 pixels
After these peaks, there is a wide region, apparently containing 2 peaks, at 24 pixels, so there is a significant diminution of the seismic amplitude.
Looks kind of constant to me! What do you get when you measure it?
wcelliott, what about the spaghetti discussion ? Empirical experiments clearly show how such a piece breaks into parts (of course their centre of mass conserved) and shows that energy is not only lost in the top part during the crush down.
Now if one wtc_i, i=1,2 story satisfies
Integral (0,h) from F(u)du=0.6GJ,
which is of course an extremely complex structure then why during a collapse is energy only lost per story.
If you look at two stories then you can redefine a virtual story that consists of two individual stories. if you now 'hammer' these two stories, assuming they are fixed on ground zero the following integral is valid
Integral (0,2h) from F(u)du=1.2GJ,
I think this is the achillesheel of global collapse , could someone point me to the proof that is is something per unit length. This is in fact the question and also the dominant part of the whole global collapse discussion. "we saw it from video observation" is not the answer, I also saw much more from video observation. But if this indeed can be proven then even I'm going to become a debunker and maybe a very hardcore one.... although we still have wtc7
Now if one wtc_i, i=1,2 story satisfies
Integral (0,h) from F(u)du=0.6GJ,
which is of course an extremely complex structure then why during a collapse is energy only lost per story.
If you look at two stories then you can redefine a virtual story that consists of two individual stories. if you now 'hammer' these two stories, assuming they are fixed on ground zero the following integral is valid
Integral (0,2h) from F(u)du=1.2GJ,
I think this is the achillesheel of global collapse , could someone point me to the proof that is is something per unit length. This is in fact the question and also the dominant part of the whole global collapse discussion. "we saw it from video observation" is not the answer, I also saw much more from video observation. But if this indeed can be proven then even I'm going to become a debunker and maybe a very hardcore one.... although we still have wtc7
QUOTE (einsteen+Jun 11 2007, 11:40 AM)
wcelliott, what about the spaghetti discussion ? Empirical experiments clearly show how such a piece breaks into parts (of course their centre of mass conserved) and shows that energy is not only lost in the top part during the crush down.
Now if one wtc_i, i=1,2 story satisfies
Integral (0,h) from F(u)du=0.6GJ,
which is of course an extremely complex structure then why during a collapse is energy only lost per story.
If you look at two stories then you can redefine a virtual story that consists of two individual stories. if you now 'hammer' these two stories, assuming they are fixed on ground zero the following integral is valid
Integral (0,2h) from F(u)du=1.2GJ,
I think this is the achillesheel of global collapse , could someone point me to the proof that is is something per unit length. This is in fact the question and also the dominant part of the whole global collapse discussion. "we saw it from video observation" is not the answer, I also saw much more from video observation. But if this indeed can be proven then even I'm going to become a debunker and maybe a very hardcore one.... although we still have wtc7
One reason, it seems to me, is that the towers have much more inertia than just the inertia of the columns. If you want several lower stories to take on the dynamic load of the falling upper block through column shortening within the elastic range, you have to displace much of the mass of all the stories involved in a very short time. The inertia of the upper stories oppose this displacement. The fact that momentum transfer is responsible for much more resistance than the structure reflect that fact although more detailed calculation is required, taking into account the actual elastic shortening range and the complex reaction forces from the floor supports.
There is also the issue that has been much discussed on this board that axial loading of the columns is no longer possible after all the columns have been severed in the fire/impact zone and the top block has rotated. So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up.
Now if one wtc_i, i=1,2 story satisfies
Integral (0,h) from F(u)du=0.6GJ,
which is of course an extremely complex structure then why during a collapse is energy only lost per story.
If you look at two stories then you can redefine a virtual story that consists of two individual stories. if you now 'hammer' these two stories, assuming they are fixed on ground zero the following integral is valid
Integral (0,2h) from F(u)du=1.2GJ,
I think this is the achillesheel of global collapse , could someone point me to the proof that is is something per unit length. This is in fact the question and also the dominant part of the whole global collapse discussion. "we saw it from video observation" is not the answer, I also saw much more from video observation. But if this indeed can be proven then even I'm going to become a debunker and maybe a very hardcore one.... although we still have wtc7
One reason, it seems to me, is that the towers have much more inertia than just the inertia of the columns. If you want several lower stories to take on the dynamic load of the falling upper block through column shortening within the elastic range, you have to displace much of the mass of all the stories involved in a very short time. The inertia of the upper stories oppose this displacement. The fact that momentum transfer is responsible for much more resistance than the structure reflect that fact although more detailed calculation is required, taking into account the actual elastic shortening range and the complex reaction forces from the floor supports.
There is also the issue that has been much discussed on this board that axial loading of the columns is no longer possible after all the columns have been severed in the fire/impact zone and the top block has rotated. So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up.
Pierre-Normand,
But isn't that only a matter of the value of the energy to crush a story, under the assumptions of this model ? If that value is high enough then even 50 stories will be absorbed. Of course in this model the E value is a couple of times lower than the initial kinetic energy and if floors are pancaked then the kinetic energy even becomes higher and then E really doesn't do anything to it. The inertia of the floors does nothing to the pancake type of collapse, because if you set E=0 in your model you have a fast accelerating building. After n (equal mass) floors the deceleration is only n/(n+1) which is a very small fraction and then between the floors there is a free-fall a distance h, leading to an increase of the velocity.
The point is that if you are talking about a model with a 'good first order approximation' then that first order should be physically relevant. In a thought experiment it then should behave that way. The new greening/DBB/Bazant paper for example doesn't care about all fine details. It simply uses the energy to crush a story and homogenizes everything in order to setup differential equations. It doesn't care about floors falling between the outer and inner cores, it just assumes everything is crushed stepwise, all cores included. If the tilt is crucial or if there is a wedge effect then it should be explained how that really occurred. But that isn't done. I understand that the math becomes tedious and maybe unsolvable but if you limit yourself to a solvable problem it should also be a physical relevant model.
In 1d you could setup a system with n-1 springs and n masses, you could remove one spring and you will see that the model wouldn't collapse. Would it ?? Wtc stories are no springs ?? No they aren’t but F(y) is linear in first order approach.
But isn't that only a matter of the value of the energy to crush a story, under the assumptions of this model ? If that value is high enough then even 50 stories will be absorbed. Of course in this model the E value is a couple of times lower than the initial kinetic energy and if floors are pancaked then the kinetic energy even becomes higher and then E really doesn't do anything to it. The inertia of the floors does nothing to the pancake type of collapse, because if you set E=0 in your model you have a fast accelerating building. After n (equal mass) floors the deceleration is only n/(n+1) which is a very small fraction and then between the floors there is a free-fall a distance h, leading to an increase of the velocity.
The point is that if you are talking about a model with a 'good first order approximation' then that first order should be physically relevant. In a thought experiment it then should behave that way. The new greening/DBB/Bazant paper for example doesn't care about all fine details. It simply uses the energy to crush a story and homogenizes everything in order to setup differential equations. It doesn't care about floors falling between the outer and inner cores, it just assumes everything is crushed stepwise, all cores included. If the tilt is crucial or if there is a wedge effect then it should be explained how that really occurred. But that isn't done. I understand that the math becomes tedious and maybe unsolvable but if you limit yourself to a solvable problem it should also be a physical relevant model.
In 1d you could setup a system with n-1 springs and n masses, you could remove one spring and you will see that the model wouldn't collapse. Would it ?? Wtc stories are no springs ?? No they aren’t but F(y) is linear in first order approach.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 11 2007, 01:07 PM)
One reason, it seems to me, is that the towers have much more inertia than just the inertia of the columns. If you want several lower stories to take on the dynamic load of the falling upper block through columns shortening within the elastic range, you have to displace much of the mass of all the stories involved in a very short time. The inertia of the upper stories oppose this displacement. The fact that momentum transfer is responsible for much more resistance than the structure reflect that fact although more detailed calculation is required, taking into account the actual elastic shortening range and the complex reaction forces from the floor supports.
There is also the issue that has been much discussed on this board that axial loading of the columns is no longer possible after all the columns have been severed in the fire/impact zone and the top block has rotated. So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up.
but, even if the top piece is of axis, which it was in both cases, then, the perimeter columns which are contacting lower perimeter columns should be snapping faster than the one's that aren't, and yet, what we see, are all the columns giving at the same time, which means they(the lower ones) are being acted on in concert.
and speaking of in concert, it seems that OCTs now agree that modelling collapse is important to understand what really happened.
wcelliot, i have been saying these things about newton's equal and opposite law since page three of the first thread. when the top hits the bottom, the bottom hits back just as hard. and making big noise takes big energy, so it is an ignored energy sink. the intact columns are coupled into bedrock, and so for the 'hammer', it is like metamars' banging a nail into concrete. the nail bends, or the hammer bounces back, or the concrete chips, or a combination of two, or all three.
since we know the bathtub was intact, we can leave out the chipped concrete part, and we are left with a nail which buckles instantly, which we also didn't see, and so we are left with a hammer that bounces back(ie, stops and changes direction like a billiard ball, lol).
on another, 'note', the clang of metal hitting metal does not sound like a bomb. have you seen 911eyewitness? how do you explain the giant spikes in amplitude?
and, the white flash is an 'aerosol can exploding'? holy handwaving, batman!!! it looks to me like that aerosol can triggered the collapse. pretty cool can that can sit in a fire like that for an hour, and then explode at the moment the top starts to 'accordion'.
There is also the issue that has been much discussed on this board that axial loading of the columns is no longer possible after all the columns have been severed in the fire/impact zone and the top block has rotated. So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up.
but, even if the top piece is of axis, which it was in both cases, then, the perimeter columns which are contacting lower perimeter columns should be snapping faster than the one's that aren't, and yet, what we see, are all the columns giving at the same time, which means they(the lower ones) are being acted on in concert.
and speaking of in concert, it seems that OCTs now agree that modelling collapse is important to understand what really happened.
wcelliot, i have been saying these things about newton's equal and opposite law since page three of the first thread. when the top hits the bottom, the bottom hits back just as hard. and making big noise takes big energy, so it is an ignored energy sink. the intact columns are coupled into bedrock, and so for the 'hammer', it is like metamars' banging a nail into concrete. the nail bends, or the hammer bounces back, or the concrete chips, or a combination of two, or all three.
since we know the bathtub was intact, we can leave out the chipped concrete part, and we are left with a nail which buckles instantly, which we also didn't see, and so we are left with a hammer that bounces back(ie, stops and changes direction like a billiard ball, lol).
on another, 'note', the clang of metal hitting metal does not sound like a bomb. have you seen 911eyewitness? how do you explain the giant spikes in amplitude?
and, the white flash is an 'aerosol can exploding'? holy handwaving, batman!!! it looks to me like that aerosol can triggered the collapse. pretty cool can that can sit in a fire like that for an hour, and then explode at the moment the top starts to 'accordion'.
einsteen
You seem to miss the point that the columns of the exterior frames and, to maybe a slightly lesser extent, the core, could not effectively exert their remaining strength against the falling debris of the collapse. They were both mostly bypassed so whatever strength they had is irrelivant to the energy required to collapse a floor. The only really relivant calculation would be the energy required to strip the floor supports, as they limited the resistence the lower floors could provide.
Grumpy
You seem to miss the point that the columns of the exterior frames and, to maybe a slightly lesser extent, the core, could not effectively exert their remaining strength against the falling debris of the collapse. They were both mostly bypassed so whatever strength they had is irrelivant to the energy required to collapse a floor. The only really relivant calculation would be the energy required to strip the floor supports, as they limited the resistence the lower floors could provide.
Grumpy
But isn't that exactly the early pancake theory ? And then one can forgot the intitiation process.
As far as I can see what you mean is still a pancake kind of collapse then although the new article (and the older ones also of course) doesn't mention it, they use a complete crushing as far as I understand it. Isn't progressive collapse pancaking including columns ?
As far as I can see what you mean is still a pancake kind of collapse then although the new article (and the older ones also of course) doesn't mention it, they use a complete crushing as far as I understand it. Isn't progressive collapse pancaking including columns ?
I am still very curious and havent got an explanation to what LIFTED people up and made theme travel through the AIR on the 38th floor and lower. And where the wind and HEAT they could feel in the basement and at the lower floors came from after they had heard big explosions?. And why the parking garage was GONE. And metal hitting metal does not sound like bombs, there was people that had been in the U.S army and police officers that said they heard bombs, they know what a bomb sounds like, the sound of a bomb and metal hitting metal has a big difference. And there was fireballs big as an house at the street before the collapse to.
sorry. can't edit. too late. i meant 'off axis', not 'of axis', meaning with a tilt and rotation(like they do in demos, coincidentally), the upper columns are not lining up with the bottom ones.
einsteen
The initiating event was the collapse of the outer wall, as seen in the videos. When the tops tilted the outer frames were no longer bearing on each other, but are bearing on just the floor below which collapses when the strength of it's connections are exceeded. This BEGINS the pancaking of the floors, even getting ahead of the main collapse front.
The initiating event was the collapse of the outer wall, as seen in the videos. When the tops tilted the outer frames were no longer bearing on each other, but are bearing on just the floor below which collapses when the strength of it's connections are exceeded. This BEGINS the pancaking of the floors, even getting ahead of the main collapse front.
As far as I can see what you mean is still a pancake kind of collapse then although the new article (and the older ones also of course) doesn't mention it, they use a complete crushing as far as I understand it. Isn't progressive collapse pancaking including columns ?
THE OUTER FRAME MEMBERS WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE "CRUSH DOWN", but were pushed outward in long sections to fall over, mostly intact. By the time this occurred the majority of the rubble was already in the basements(due to being faster than main collapse front). Core columns, unsupported over several floors, exceeded the length/slenderness value they could sustain, simply snapped like overstressed spaghetti.
Math can APPROXIMATE complex events. The more details you try to work out in math, the more complex the math, so, in order to be able to do useful work certain assumptions and simplifications must be made. Math can thus give you limits(energy wise) and averages(but not pinpoint extremes, such as temperature)but cannot distinguish details. NIST simulation stops at collapse initiation because further tracking in the detail they were working at would consume way too much computer time and work, and IT STILL WOULD BE BUT AN APPROXIMATION of this highly chaotic event.
Grumpy
The energy of a shock wave in a structure will bounce around until it's absorbed. Structures for the most part are all about carrying vast forces gracefully, so unless someone threw a shock absorber into the design (like they do in Japan for earthquakes), then the shock wave dissipates in an unintended manner. Carpets will absorb energy, breaking glass will absorb energy, water pipes breaking, people getting knocked off their feet, desks and potted plants and 50-ton presses, everything absorbs some energy of the shock wave. But what doesn't get absorbed bounces back and forth through the structure. Mud would absorb lots, but the shock gets reflected at the basement due to impedance mismatch, and again at the bathtub itself, same reason. So breaking concrete at the top remaining intact floor (the one that's already under the most stress) is probably the biggest shock waves energy sink of the list.
The reason that sound (shock wave energy coupled to the air) isn't a big one on that list is the impedance mismatch between the steel structure and air, but all the flat surfaces of the structure act like the diaphragms of speakers, which tend to serve, unintentionally, as an intermediate impedance matching element. If not for glass and flat walls, you might not have heard any BANGs.
As for "metal hitting metal doesn't sound like a BANG", please note how I described it before, and again, here. A structural element that fails under load transfers an impulse to the structure. A truss is under tension so long as it's functioning. That tension is being constrained at both ends by an equal and opposite force. The opposite force at each end of the truss is stored in the deflection of the curtain-wall/core like a spring. (I wish I could come up with a better example, but I'm late for work and haven't had my coffee.) When that truss fails, both the curtain-wall and the core are no longer in equilibrium, each no longer has the truss' tension holding it in that deflected position (delta-s could be maybe a cm, maybe an inch), so each instantly recoils to its nominal position. This sounds like BANG to everyone there and everyone in the structure and outside because it's a big flat thing that's moving real fast in one direction, as if someone had hit it with a really big hammer or an explosion, which also would drive it one way, fast.
That shock-impulse travels down the structure in two modes, compression at 20,000fps, and transverse at a slower rate that's determined by the mass of the floors and the transverse strength of the structure, so below, you hear the BANG! first, then the rumbling of the transverse wave interacting with the various unintentional resonances of the structure. People at street level will hear the BANG from the structure (Mach 20) before hearing the direct sound of the truss releasing traveling at Mach 1.
Please note that while I used a failing truss as the example, virtually every structural element is either in tension or compression, and the human ear can't tell the phase of sound (it just doesn't work that way), so a tension failure will sound like a compression failure, and they both go BANG!. Let me know if you can think of a structural member that wasn't in tension or compression.
The myriad reports of random-spaced BANGs from witnesses make perfect sense in a failing structure, and make no sense in a CD. What's that "C" stand for? Why would there be random explosions at random places and times throughout the structure if the Demolition were Controlled?
It should be noted that what happened in reality was neither a pancake nor a bagel nor zipper nor any other pure-bred clean process, but a complicated mishmash of events, no offense intended against those who've made sophisticated models in good-faith. I think the strength of the non-CD argument is that all versions show that once the collapse began, the rest was inevitable, regardless of the details of the collapse mechanism.
Assume that the upper-section floor fragmented into small chunks and rained down gently to the floor below such that the kinetic energy didn't play a role in the collapse. The weight of the debris would still exceed the load-bearing capacity of the impact/fire-damaged floor, and it'd fail when the max-capacity load was exceeded. The floor below would then have even more debris falling on it, so it'd fail, too, and so on all the way down.
Let's say that the upper floor fell in larger slabs, but one at a time, so that the whole of the floor's kinetic energy was spread out over time. Each slab would try to pancake on the floor below, but there was office furniture in the way, some of which was more substantial than others. The more substantial stuff would've concentrated the load from above (the slab weight) onto the floor below through the smaller footprint of the desks/filing cabinets, etc., so that would load the intact floor unevenly, creating stresses in the floor that would've contributed to that floor breaking into slabs, itself. Falling slabs create falling slabs, and so on, and that progresses to collapse, too.
Big chunks likewise hit hard and make other big chunks.
Bageling is the next logical step in this sequence, but it isn't the only one, nor is it more likely than the Big Chunks Make Big Chunks model, which I believe is the likeliest, at least for much of the collapse regime.
The Small Chunks version has a hydrodynamic loading effect that's worth thinking about, too. That would tend to crush inward the core and splay-outward the curtain walls, creating a zipper-effect dropping floors below the one in the crush-zone. You actually have leverage working to pry the perimeter columns away from their trusses. This would tend to leave the perimeter columns intact and splayed outward, exactly what you see at ground-level.
I've got to get going.
Oh, aerosol cans - They're pressurized with hydrocarbons these days, and statistically, there are enough of them around that you'd expect one to be going off someplace in the structure at some frequency, and I dispute the timing of the flash being at the "start" of the collapse. The video showing the closeup of the curtain wall buckling in illustrates the point that the collapse didn't start instantaneously, at one precise moment, like you get from the detonation of a high explosive, it started like a tree starts falling over - slowly and with increasing speed, but so slowly that it's not a trivial matter to say when it started. Before you call that flash an explosion, please look at some of the videos of what real explosives look like when they go off. The eruption of smoke associated with that flash wasn't big enough to do anything significant to the structure, and real explosives don't produce long-duration flashes and big slow puffs of smoke, they go off in microseconds and produce supersonic shock waves. You get small pops like that in every big fire. It's something cooking-off. My guess is that it's an aerosol can. The site of that flash doesn't look that strategic to me, and the room was burning before the flash, so an aerosol can cooking-off seems the likeliest explanation.
Also, recognize that at the time that flash went off, the perimeter columns were already bent in across the whole of the face seen in the posted link, and when they bent in, they did so in unison. You just can't do that with explosives.
There is also the issue that has been much discussed on this board that axial loading of the columns is no longer possible after all the columns have been severed in the fire/impact zone and the top block has rotated. So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up.
With the upper block offset laterally by about a foot or more, the columns are disconnected from each other through the collapse front. There isn't much left to support the upper block. Columns of the upper falling block are hitting the concrete slabs of the lower intact section of the tower and vice versa, fracturing the concrete or breaking the floor trusses or their connections. Some of the columns are outside the footprint and hitting air. There would be some limited resistance offered by the gypsum walls separating offices in the region of the front that would be trying to support the whole upper block along with some resistive force during the crushing of office furnishings. That's not going to hold up the upper block even under static conditions, let alone during a dynamic collapse. If columns didn't have to be concentric with each other, people could construct buildings as sloppy as they wanted, with columns arranged any which way and resting on concrete floor slabs at each story.
With the upper block offset laterally by about a foot or more, the columns are disconnected from each other through the collapse front. There isn't much left to support the upper block. Columns of the upper falling block are hitting the concrete slabs of the lower intact section of the tower and vice versa, fracturing the concrete or breaking the floor trusses or their connections. Some of the columns are outside the footprint and hitting air. There would be some limited resistance offered by the gypsum walls separating offices in the region of the front that would be trying to support the whole upper block along with some resistive force during the crushing of office furnishings. That's not going to hold up the upper block even under static conditions, let alone during a dynamic collapse. If columns didn't have to be concentric with each other, people could construct buildings as sloppy as they wanted, with columns arranged any which way and resting on concrete floor slabs at each story.
This is a very nice explanation. I am unsure if you meant do disagree with anything I said. I see however that the way I expressed my thought was rather misleading.
When I said:
"So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up."
What I meant to say was that even if the columns had the *capacity* to take this load, there would be no means to load them to even close to that capacity since the loading would have to occur through interaction with the upper intact floor.
Your explanation was much clearer. Thanks.
Yup.
While shock waves travel at the speed of sound through the steel structure (which, for steel, is 20,000feet per second), it's a mistake (understandable) to think of these shock waves as "sound". Their energy starts out as an impulse which is equal to the energy in the failed truss/structural member. If the truss/structural member was subjected to 50 tons when it failed, that 50 tons generates a shock wave with that energy in it. (Actually, to get the *energy* of the shock wave, you have to multiply that 50 tons by the amount of displacement that 50 tons caused in the structure, times a factor of 1/2.) So just because it travels at the speed of sound, don't think of it as *noise*. A BANG! in the air travels 20x slower and only has the mass of air behind it, a shock wave through steel has some substantial fraction of the original load and has the full mass of the steel behind it. It can easily toss people off their feet, and can easily toss a 300 pound hydraulic press into the air (even one rated to exert 50 tons of force, i.e., a "50-ton hydraulic press).
On the other hand, an explosion capable of knocking someone off their feet is often capable of killing them, as the shock wave is traveling at Mach 1+, so the force that's capable of knocking someone over is exerted over a tiny fraction of a second, so it's like getting swatted by a man-sized flyswatter.
A large rush of air going 120mph will lift a person off his feet, as the terminal velocity for a skydiver is about that speed, so the total wind resistance on the person is about the same as their weight. If that gust of wind came from an explosion, it'd be hot enough to burn their skin. These people who were thrown off their feet, did they survive? Were they severely burned? Were they bleeding from their ears, nose, eyes? If not, the gust of air probably came from something other than a huge explosion.
As for fire/heat in the basement, when the planes hit, there was a HUGE fireball that erupted in the floor(s) struck, and a direct path between that floor and the basement via the core where the elevators were. There was plenty of space between the elevators for that fireball to shoot down.
The impulse associated with a 200,000 pound airplane going 450mph shouldn't be minimized, all that energy that was coupled to the structure at the floor struck would've traveled down the steel, with the compression wave going at 20,000fps and the transverse wave going slower, as the transverse stiffness of the structure was less, so the *shaking* part of the collision's force would've taken longer to get to ground level.
Was it your view that these random "explosions" were part of a planned CD? Did they collapse the building(s)? The building(s) failed way up in the air around the floors where the planes struck. What role did the ground-level/mid-level explosions have in the "Controlled Demolition" prior to the collapse?
Cute bunny shot, BTW.
With the upper block offset laterally by about a foot or more, the columns are disconnected from each other through the collapse front. There isn't much left to support the upper block. Columns of the upper falling block are hitting the concrete slabs of the lower intact section of the tower and vice versa, fracturing the concrete or breaking the floor trusses or their connections. Some of the columns are outside the footprint and hitting air. There would be some limited resistance offered by the gypsum walls separating offices in the region of the front that would be trying to support the whole upper block along with some resistive force during the crushing of office furnishings. That's not going to hold up the upper block even under static conditions, let alone during a dynamic collapse. If columns didn't have to be concentric with each other, people could construct buildings as sloppy as they wanted, with columns arranged any which way and resting on concrete floor slabs at each story.
i think this is wrong, because of the tilt of the upper block. the tilt gives more surface area for perimeter columns to connect with perimeter columns on a least two sides.
the lower leaning side is going to be column on column contact, and will be taking the brunt of the impact.
Re-read my post, the answer is right in front of you.
The concrete was pulverized ON THE WAY DOWN. DURING THE FALL.
You're talking about what happened to in after it landed.
Not really. The final cavity distribution represents a minimum. By this I mean that the mean cavity volume will be minimal.
Before 'crush up' (final compaction), larger cavity volumes means that larger pieces of matter are protected therein.
Even if human survivors were all from within stairwells, the point remains that the building wasn't perfectly compacted. You have made no attempt to quantify a cavity distribution, which is another way of saying that you have made no attempt to show whether or not concrete comminution is dynamically possible, irrespective of energy availability in the same general area.
That your verbal explanations suffice you is self-evident. On a physics board, you shouldn't be surprised if only your fellow true-believers take you seriously.
It was, for the most part, all over at that point.
The breakage started when the floor the concrete was part of got hit by the collapsing part, and the "ball mill" process continued to pulverize the concrete every time another floor collapsed.
There's that amazing "ball mill", again. In my mind, it ranks near the "Amazing Bellows". Quite honestly, I don't think you help your case by mentioning it. Why not go with "column section hammer and anvil?" It seems less silly.
Take two large concrete blocks, one in each hand.
Smash them together.
Both will break into small pieces, lots of them, plus dust.
If you need equations to understand that, then I'm not impressed with your physics talents, either.
Take two large concrete blocks, one in each hand.
Smash them together.
Both will break into small pieces, lots of them, plus dust.
If you need equations to understand that, then I'm not impressed with your physics talents, either.
There's that amazing "ball mill", again.
I get the idea that you don't know what a ball mill is, and that you think it's dirty.
Take two large concrete blocks, one in each hand.
Smash them together.
Both will break into small pieces, lots of them, plus dust.
If you need equations to understand that, then I'm not impressed with your physics talents, either.
I get the idea that you don't know what a ball mill is, and that you think it's dirty.
no they won't.
they will break into a few large pieces, with very little dust. one or two fracture faults will crack along each block with a single impact.
a ball mill uses spheres to crush things. it is the geometry of these steel gonads that allows even the small bits to be ground smaller. even the smallest particle can get caught between the apex of two curvatures.
that's why it's not call a cube mill, or a pyramid mill.
try this. smash two concrete blocks together until there's nothing but dust, and you have particles of concrete less than 10 microns 'large'.
That wasn't what they had at the cleanup site. Most of the chunks were between 6" and a foot in diameter.
Yes, there was lots of dust. I'm not suggesting that the process continued to the point where it was two 20micron specks breaking into 10 micron specks, I'm saying that it was chunks breaking into smaller chunks PLUS dust from the breakup. That's where the 10 micron dust came from.
There's a distribution for space dust/meteoroids that's a power-law relationship, I forget the value of the exponent, but space rocks smash into each other, too, and there's more small dust particles than there are chunks.
So I guess that proves that the asteroid belt was created in a CD.
I know that in TV detective shows, a bad guy shoots and kills somebody in front of 100 witnesses and Columbo will dig deeper into it and discover that the victim was actually poisoned by his wife, but in real life, when stuff happens right in front of thousands of witnesses, it isn't a mystery.
They had other priorities, like trying to get at the rotting corpses that were under the steel and rubble, stinking up Manhattan. For lots of reasons, none of them sinister, they wanted to hurry up and put this tragedy behind them.
It was obvious to them what happened to the WTC towers, they were hit by planes, caught fire, and collapsed. You may figure that it couldn't have been that simple, but they knew they weren't in on any plot, and they knew the government didn't plan it, either, and they're in a better position to know that stuff than you are. So it was no mystery to them, and they just wanted to get the bodies recovered and get back to normal. It's just human nature.
I know that in TV detective shows, a bad guy shoots and kills somebody in front of 100 witnesses and Columbo will dig deeper into it and discover that the victim was actually poisoned by his wife, but in real life, when stuff happens right in front of thousands of witnesses, it isn't a mystery.
They had other priorities, like trying to get at the rotting corpses that were under the steel and rubble, stinking up Manhattan. For lots of reasons, none of them sinister, they wanted to hurry up and put this tragedy behind them.
It was obvious to them what happened to the WTC towers, they were hit by planes, caught fire, and collapsed. You may figure that it couldn't have been that simple, but they knew they weren't in on any plot, and they knew the government didn't plan it, either, and they're in a better position to know that stuff than you are. So it was no mystery to them, and they just wanted to get the bodies recovered and get back to normal. It's just human nature.
a_wtc1=(2/3)g
a_wtc2=(3/4)g
implies that there is an amount 0.5GJ lost per fall a distance h,
I don't want to pick a fight with anybody over this, I do realize that these mathematical models took a lot of honest hard work and I don't want to seem like a nitpicker, but this seems like a point that keeps getting overlooked.
At initiation of the collapse, the acceleration *couldn't* have been constant. It *had* to start at a low value and increase WRT time. It's like trying to state that a tree falls over at a specific acceleration - you can do curve-fitting and find number that fits well enough, but the tree starts out almost in equilibrium and its descent rate is a function of how far away from equilibrium it gets, so it isn't one specific acceleration.
In the WTC case, the building load was constant but the structural load-bearing capacity was slowly eroding over time as the fires took their toll. The initial acceleration would've been the weight of the upper section minus the load-bearing capacity of it's support divided by the mass of the upper section.
Simplifying, it means that the initial acceleration is due only to the lost load-bearing capacity of the structure as it's load-bearing capacity passes through the load it's bearing. That isn't going to be 2/3rds-g or 3/4ths-g, that's going to be 0.000001g. It may only stay at 0.0000001g for 0.0001 sec, but the underlying phenomenon is the structure slowly losing the ability to support its load, and it doesn't cross that line with a large slope. A microsecond after the load-bearing capacity of the structure crosses the load it's bearing, it's carrying all of the load except ten pounds, for instance. So those ten pounds of unsupported weight act to accelerate the 150million pounds of the upper block. Not by much, but a microsecond later, it's now short twenty pounds so the acceleration is double what it was a microsecond ago. This continues to grow until you start being able to notice the movement.
Asserting that it collapses at an initial rate of 3/4g would mean that at Tzero, the structure was fully supporting the load and at >Tzero its structural load-bearing capacity went to 25% of the load instantaneously. If that were *truly* the case, then it would be evidence for a controlled-demolition at Tzero. My irritation about this "nitpick" is that in your very assumptions, you've modeled the CD case.
I know it's a curve-fit and I understand that the acceleration at the outset of the collapse is small and it's easier to start the stopwatch when it's obvious that stuff's started moving, but the WTC started falling slower and there's no discontinuity of the acceleration that would imply a CD. This simplifying assumption makes it appear that there would be.
QUOTE
But isn't that exactly the early pancake theory ? And then one can forgot the intitiation process.
The initiating event was the collapse of the outer wall, as seen in the videos. When the tops tilted the outer frames were no longer bearing on each other, but are bearing on just the floor below which collapses when the strength of it's connections are exceeded. This BEGINS the pancaking of the floors, even getting ahead of the main collapse front.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| But isn't that exactly the early pancake theory ? And then one can forgot the intitiation process. |
The initiating event was the collapse of the outer wall, as seen in the videos. When the tops tilted the outer frames were no longer bearing on each other, but are bearing on just the floor below which collapses when the strength of it's connections are exceeded. This BEGINS the pancaking of the floors, even getting ahead of the main collapse front.
As far as I can see what you mean is still a pancake kind of collapse then although the new article (and the older ones also of course) doesn't mention it, they use a complete crushing as far as I understand it. Isn't progressive collapse pancaking including columns ?
THE OUTER FRAME MEMBERS WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE "CRUSH DOWN", but were pushed outward in long sections to fall over, mostly intact. By the time this occurred the majority of the rubble was already in the basements(due to being faster than main collapse front). Core columns, unsupported over several floors, exceeded the length/slenderness value they could sustain, simply snapped like overstressed spaghetti.
Math can APPROXIMATE complex events. The more details you try to work out in math, the more complex the math, so, in order to be able to do useful work certain assumptions and simplifications must be made. Math can thus give you limits(energy wise) and averages(but not pinpoint extremes, such as temperature)but cannot distinguish details. NIST simulation stops at collapse initiation because further tracking in the detail they were working at would consume way too much computer time and work, and IT STILL WOULD BE BUT AN APPROXIMATION of this highly chaotic event.
Grumpy
QUOTE
it is like metamars' banging a nail into concrete. the nail bends, or the hammer bounces back, or the concrete chips, or a combination of two, or all three.
since we know the bathtub was intact, we can leave out the chipped concrete part, and we are left with a nail which buckles instantly, which we also didn't see, and so we are left with a hammer that bounces back(ie, stops and changes direction like a billiard ball, lol).
on another, 'note', the clang of metal hitting metal does not sound like a bomb. have you seen 911eyewitness? how do you explain the giant spikes in amplitude?
and, the white flash is an 'aerosol can exploding'? holy handwaving, batman!!! it looks to me like that aerosol can triggered the collapse. pretty cool can that can sit in a fire like that for an hour, and then explode at the moment the top starts to 'accordion'.
since we know the bathtub was intact, we can leave out the chipped concrete part, and we are left with a nail which buckles instantly, which we also didn't see, and so we are left with a hammer that bounces back(ie, stops and changes direction like a billiard ball, lol).
on another, 'note', the clang of metal hitting metal does not sound like a bomb. have you seen 911eyewitness? how do you explain the giant spikes in amplitude?
and, the white flash is an 'aerosol can exploding'? holy handwaving, batman!!! it looks to me like that aerosol can triggered the collapse. pretty cool can that can sit in a fire like that for an hour, and then explode at the moment the top starts to 'accordion'.
The energy of a shock wave in a structure will bounce around until it's absorbed. Structures for the most part are all about carrying vast forces gracefully, so unless someone threw a shock absorber into the design (like they do in Japan for earthquakes), then the shock wave dissipates in an unintended manner. Carpets will absorb energy, breaking glass will absorb energy, water pipes breaking, people getting knocked off their feet, desks and potted plants and 50-ton presses, everything absorbs some energy of the shock wave. But what doesn't get absorbed bounces back and forth through the structure. Mud would absorb lots, but the shock gets reflected at the basement due to impedance mismatch, and again at the bathtub itself, same reason. So breaking concrete at the top remaining intact floor (the one that's already under the most stress) is probably the biggest shock waves energy sink of the list.
The reason that sound (shock wave energy coupled to the air) isn't a big one on that list is the impedance mismatch between the steel structure and air, but all the flat surfaces of the structure act like the diaphragms of speakers, which tend to serve, unintentionally, as an intermediate impedance matching element. If not for glass and flat walls, you might not have heard any BANGs.
As for "metal hitting metal doesn't sound like a BANG", please note how I described it before, and again, here. A structural element that fails under load transfers an impulse to the structure. A truss is under tension so long as it's functioning. That tension is being constrained at both ends by an equal and opposite force. The opposite force at each end of the truss is stored in the deflection of the curtain-wall/core like a spring. (I wish I could come up with a better example, but I'm late for work and haven't had my coffee.) When that truss fails, both the curtain-wall and the core are no longer in equilibrium, each no longer has the truss' tension holding it in that deflected position (delta-s could be maybe a cm, maybe an inch), so each instantly recoils to its nominal position. This sounds like BANG to everyone there and everyone in the structure and outside because it's a big flat thing that's moving real fast in one direction, as if someone had hit it with a really big hammer or an explosion, which also would drive it one way, fast.
That shock-impulse travels down the structure in two modes, compression at 20,000fps, and transverse at a slower rate that's determined by the mass of the floors and the transverse strength of the structure, so below, you hear the BANG! first, then the rumbling of the transverse wave interacting with the various unintentional resonances of the structure. People at street level will hear the BANG from the structure (Mach 20) before hearing the direct sound of the truss releasing traveling at Mach 1.
Please note that while I used a failing truss as the example, virtually every structural element is either in tension or compression, and the human ear can't tell the phase of sound (it just doesn't work that way), so a tension failure will sound like a compression failure, and they both go BANG!. Let me know if you can think of a structural member that wasn't in tension or compression.
The myriad reports of random-spaced BANGs from witnesses make perfect sense in a failing structure, and make no sense in a CD. What's that "C" stand for? Why would there be random explosions at random places and times throughout the structure if the Demolition were Controlled?
It should be noted that what happened in reality was neither a pancake nor a bagel nor zipper nor any other pure-bred clean process, but a complicated mishmash of events, no offense intended against those who've made sophisticated models in good-faith. I think the strength of the non-CD argument is that all versions show that once the collapse began, the rest was inevitable, regardless of the details of the collapse mechanism.
Assume that the upper-section floor fragmented into small chunks and rained down gently to the floor below such that the kinetic energy didn't play a role in the collapse. The weight of the debris would still exceed the load-bearing capacity of the impact/fire-damaged floor, and it'd fail when the max-capacity load was exceeded. The floor below would then have even more debris falling on it, so it'd fail, too, and so on all the way down.
Let's say that the upper floor fell in larger slabs, but one at a time, so that the whole of the floor's kinetic energy was spread out over time. Each slab would try to pancake on the floor below, but there was office furniture in the way, some of which was more substantial than others. The more substantial stuff would've concentrated the load from above (the slab weight) onto the floor below through the smaller footprint of the desks/filing cabinets, etc., so that would load the intact floor unevenly, creating stresses in the floor that would've contributed to that floor breaking into slabs, itself. Falling slabs create falling slabs, and so on, and that progresses to collapse, too.
Big chunks likewise hit hard and make other big chunks.
Bageling is the next logical step in this sequence, but it isn't the only one, nor is it more likely than the Big Chunks Make Big Chunks model, which I believe is the likeliest, at least for much of the collapse regime.
The Small Chunks version has a hydrodynamic loading effect that's worth thinking about, too. That would tend to crush inward the core and splay-outward the curtain walls, creating a zipper-effect dropping floors below the one in the crush-zone. You actually have leverage working to pry the perimeter columns away from their trusses. This would tend to leave the perimeter columns intact and splayed outward, exactly what you see at ground-level.
I've got to get going.
Oh, aerosol cans - They're pressurized with hydrocarbons these days, and statistically, there are enough of them around that you'd expect one to be going off someplace in the structure at some frequency, and I dispute the timing of the flash being at the "start" of the collapse. The video showing the closeup of the curtain wall buckling in illustrates the point that the collapse didn't start instantaneously, at one precise moment, like you get from the detonation of a high explosive, it started like a tree starts falling over - slowly and with increasing speed, but so slowly that it's not a trivial matter to say when it started. Before you call that flash an explosion, please look at some of the videos of what real explosives look like when they go off. The eruption of smoke associated with that flash wasn't big enough to do anything significant to the structure, and real explosives don't produce long-duration flashes and big slow puffs of smoke, they go off in microseconds and produce supersonic shock waves. You get small pops like that in every big fire. It's something cooking-off. My guess is that it's an aerosol can. The site of that flash doesn't look that strategic to me, and the room was burning before the flash, so an aerosol can cooking-off seems the likeliest explanation.
Also, recognize that at the time that flash went off, the perimeter columns were already bent in across the whole of the face seen in the posted link, and when they bent in, they did so in unison. You just can't do that with explosives.
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 11 2007, 11:39 AM)
The South tower does, indeed, show some increase during 'crush down'.
You only have the EW seismograph record. You have no way of determining the interference between Love and Rayleigh waves started by unknown events at various times. Any attempt at analysis is hopeless, as I previously posted.
Besides, you are assuming some significant damage to the bottom of the Bathtub. I previously posted suggesting there wasn't any. Seems to me you should first provide the evidence before constructing elaborate hypotheses.
You only have the EW seismograph record. You have no way of determining the interference between Love and Rayleigh waves started by unknown events at various times. Any attempt at analysis is hopeless, as I previously posted.
Besides, you are assuming some significant damage to the bottom of the Bathtub. I previously posted suggesting there wasn't any. Seems to me you should first provide the evidence before constructing elaborate hypotheses.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 11 2007, 05:32 AM)
It would be my expectation that the difference in the initial acceleration rate from changing the block size would be smaller if the excess mass at the top was considered. That would make the weight of one lower storey less significant in comparison with the whole weight of the block. (Your "even" quialifier[sic] must have meant "one way or another")
Would it be correct to expect, also, that considering the crush-up of a few stories above the failure zone taking place concurrently with the initial crush-down phase would also make little difference? That would be because while the upper block would be shortening, the dynamic load on the B-Zone would be reduced somewhat in proportion, and this would slow the initial acceleration of the crush-down front in a way that compensates for the reduction of the upper block?
1) Yes.
2) This sounds correct, but I haven't run a computer simulation for this situation.
Would it be correct to expect, also, that considering the crush-up of a few stories above the failure zone taking place concurrently with the initial crush-down phase would also make little difference? That would be because while the upper block would be shortening, the dynamic load on the B-Zone would be reduced somewhat in proportion, and this would slow the initial acceleration of the crush-down front in a way that compensates for the reduction of the upper block?
1) Yes.
2) This sounds correct, but I haven't run a computer simulation for this situation.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 11 2007, 01:07 PM)
There is also the issue that has been much discussed on this board that axial loading of the columns is no longer possible after all the columns have been severed in the fire/impact zone and the top block has rotated. So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up.
With the upper block offset laterally by about a foot or more, the columns are disconnected from each other through the collapse front. There isn't much left to support the upper block. Columns of the upper falling block are hitting the concrete slabs of the lower intact section of the tower and vice versa, fracturing the concrete or breaking the floor trusses or their connections. Some of the columns are outside the footprint and hitting air. There would be some limited resistance offered by the gypsum walls separating offices in the region of the front that would be trying to support the whole upper block along with some resistive force during the crushing of office furnishings. That's not going to hold up the upper block even under static conditions, let alone during a dynamic collapse. If columns didn't have to be concentric with each other, people could construct buildings as sloppy as they wanted, with columns arranged any which way and resting on concrete floor slabs at each story.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Jun , 03:04 PM)
einsteen
The initiating event was the collapse of the outer wall, as seen in the videos. When the tops tilted the outer frames were no longer bearing on each other, but are bearing on just the floor below which collapses when the strength of it's connections are exceeded. This BEGINS the pancaking of the floors, even getting ahead of the main collapse front.
THE OUTER FRAME MEMBERS WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE "CRUSH DOWN", but were pushed outward in long sections to fall over, mostly intact. By the time this occurred the majority of the rubble was already in the basements(due to being faster than main collapse front). Core columns, unsupported over several floors, exceeded the length/slenderness value they could sustain, simply snapped like overstressed spaghetti.
Math can APPROXIMATE complex events. The more details you try to work out in math, the more complex the math, so, in order to be able to do useful work certain assumptions and simplifications must be made. Math can thus give you limits(energy wise) and averages(but not pinpoint extremes, such as temperature)but cannot distinguish details. NIST simulation stops at collapse initiation because further tracking in the detail they were working at would consume way too much computer time and work, and IT STILL WOULD BE BUT AN APPROXIMATION of this highly chaotic event.
Grumpy
I'm on board with this. I know it was mentioned before that "crush down" may or may not have caught up with the floors pancaking, but I am still under the assumption it didn't. It seems to me that the floor collapse may have governed the velocity of the global collapse. Once the pancaking reached a certain velocity, the upper section was moving so fast it had little time to "punish" the core (not to mention the core was getting stronger) and you get a standing core. "Crush up" wipes out the standing core, game over.
Too true about the math/physics Grumpy. There really is not "limit" to the amount of complexity we could apply to the collapse. A butterfly flapping its wings in China caused "Global Collapse Initiation".
(or was it invisible Mothera?)
The initiating event was the collapse of the outer wall, as seen in the videos. When the tops tilted the outer frames were no longer bearing on each other, but are bearing on just the floor below which collapses when the strength of it's connections are exceeded. This BEGINS the pancaking of the floors, even getting ahead of the main collapse front.
THE OUTER FRAME MEMBERS WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE "CRUSH DOWN", but were pushed outward in long sections to fall over, mostly intact. By the time this occurred the majority of the rubble was already in the basements(due to being faster than main collapse front). Core columns, unsupported over several floors, exceeded the length/slenderness value they could sustain, simply snapped like overstressed spaghetti.
Math can APPROXIMATE complex events. The more details you try to work out in math, the more complex the math, so, in order to be able to do useful work certain assumptions and simplifications must be made. Math can thus give you limits(energy wise) and averages(but not pinpoint extremes, such as temperature)but cannot distinguish details. NIST simulation stops at collapse initiation because further tracking in the detail they were working at would consume way too much computer time and work, and IT STILL WOULD BE BUT AN APPROXIMATION of this highly chaotic event.
Grumpy
I'm on board with this. I know it was mentioned before that "crush down" may or may not have caught up with the floors pancaking, but I am still under the assumption it didn't. It seems to me that the floor collapse may have governed the velocity of the global collapse. Once the pancaking reached a certain velocity, the upper section was moving so fast it had little time to "punish" the core (not to mention the core was getting stronger) and you get a standing core. "Crush up" wipes out the standing core, game over.
Too true about the math/physics Grumpy. There really is not "limit" to the amount of complexity we could apply to the collapse. A butterfly flapping its wings in China caused "Global Collapse Initiation".
(or was it invisible Mothera?)
QUOTE (shagster+Jun 11 2007, 08:27 PM)
With the upper block offset laterally by about a foot or more, the columns are disconnected from each other through the collapse front. There isn't much left to support the upper block. Columns of the upper falling block are hitting the concrete slabs of the lower intact section of the tower and vice versa, fracturing the concrete or breaking the floor trusses or their connections. Some of the columns are outside the footprint and hitting air. There would be some limited resistance offered by the gypsum walls separating offices in the region of the front that would be trying to support the whole upper block along with some resistive force during the crushing of office furnishings. That's not going to hold up the upper block even under static conditions, let alone during a dynamic collapse. If columns didn't have to be concentric with each other, people could construct buildings as sloppy as they wanted, with columns arranged any which way and resting on concrete floor slabs at each story.
This is a very nice explanation. I am unsure if you meant do disagree with anything I said. I see however that the way I expressed my thought was rather misleading.
When I said:
"So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up."
What I meant to say was that even if the columns had the *capacity* to take this load, there would be no means to load them to even close to that capacity since the loading would have to occur through interaction with the upper intact floor.
Your explanation was much clearer. Thanks.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 11 2007, 07:53 PM)
You only have the EW seismograph record. You have no way of determining the interference between Love and Rayleigh waves started by unknown events at various times. Any attempt at analysis is hopeless, as I previously posted.
I won't accept this until I hear it from a few seismologists. I will most certainly post anything here I might learn on this subject, regardless of what the verdict is.
If anybody reading this thread is attending a university that has seismologists, kindly ask for their input, and post it here.
Besides, you are assuming some significant damage to the bottom of the Bathtub. I previously posted suggesting there wasn't any. Seems to me you should first provide the evidence before constructing elaborate hypotheses.
The following has lots of references on this subject. Knock yourself out:
http://journalof911studies.com/letters/b/s...mes-gourley.pdf
I won't accept this until I hear it from a few seismologists. I will most certainly post anything here I might learn on this subject, regardless of what the verdict is.
If anybody reading this thread is attending a university that has seismologists, kindly ask for their input, and post it here.
QUOTE
Besides, you are assuming some significant damage to the bottom of the Bathtub. I previously posted suggesting there wasn't any. Seems to me you should first provide the evidence before constructing elaborate hypotheses.
The following has lots of references on this subject. Knock yourself out:
http://journalof911studies.com/letters/b/s...mes-gourley.pdf
QUOTE (Malmoesoldier+Jun 11 2007, 02:22 PM)
I am still very curious and havent got an explanation to what LIFTED people up and made theme travel through the AIR on the 38th floor and lower. And where the wind and HEAT they could feel in the basement and at the lower floors came from after they had heard big explosions?. And why the parking garage was GONE. And metal hitting metal does not sound like bombs, there was people that had been in the U.S army and police officers that said they heard bombs, they know what a bomb sounds like, the sound of a bomb and metal hitting metal has a big difference. And there was fireballs big as an house at the street before the collapse to.
wcelliott. "The energy of a shock wave in a structure will bounce around until it's absorbed" Was it the energy of the shock wave that lifted people up and made theme travel trough the air?, is that what destroyed the garage and made the wind and HEAT that people could feel after the explosions on the lower floors and at the basement to?. And it did fireballs at the street that was the size of a house before the collapse to right?
wcelliott. "The energy of a shock wave in a structure will bounce around until it's absorbed" Was it the energy of the shock wave that lifted people up and made theme travel trough the air?, is that what destroyed the garage and made the wind and HEAT that people could feel after the explosions on the lower floors and at the basement to?. And it did fireballs at the street that was the size of a house before the collapse to right?
QUOTE (metamars+Jun 12 2007, 12:50 AM)
I won't accept this until I hear it from a few seismologists.
The following has lots of references on this subject.
1) Accept what? That you are using only one of the three seismograph records? Hence you cannot do a proper spectral analysis? Jeez, try thinking for a change.
2) As expected that paper cites exactly the same news sources. Only damage to the Bathtub that required significant repair was along the south wall, as I stated. Your other leg has been cut off by your own citation.
The following has lots of references on this subject.
1) Accept what? That you are using only one of the three seismograph records? Hence you cannot do a proper spectral analysis? Jeez, try thinking for a change.
2) As expected that paper cites exactly the same news sources. Only damage to the Bathtub that required significant repair was along the south wall, as I stated. Your other leg has been cut off by your own citation.
QUOTE (Pierre-Normand+Jun 11 2007, 11:31 PM)
This is a very nice explanation. I am unsure if you meant do disagree with anything I said. I see however that the way I expressed my thought was rather misleading.
When I said:
"So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up."
What I meant to say was that even if the columns had the *capacity* to take this load, there would be no means to load them to even close to that capacity since the loading would have to occur through interaction with the upper intact floor.
Your explanation was much clearer. Thanks.
I was agreeing with your interpretation.
When I said:
"So, even if the columns could take the dynamic load through shortening over the height of several stories, the top floor slab wouldn't even take the static load. So, there really is nothing to hold the top block up."
What I meant to say was that even if the columns had the *capacity* to take this load, there would be no means to load them to even close to that capacity since the loading would have to occur through interaction with the upper intact floor.
Your explanation was much clearer. Thanks.
I was agreeing with your interpretation.
QUOTE
wcelliott. "The energy of a shock wave in a structure will bounce around until it's absorbed" Was it the energy of the shock wave that lifted people up and made theme travel trough the air?, is that what destroyed the garage and made the wind and HEAT that people could feel after the explosions on the lower floors and at the basement to?. And it did fireballs at the street that was the size of a house before the collapse to right?
Yup.
While shock waves travel at the speed of sound through the steel structure (which, for steel, is 20,000feet per second), it's a mistake (understandable) to think of these shock waves as "sound". Their energy starts out as an impulse which is equal to the energy in the failed truss/structural member. If the truss/structural member was subjected to 50 tons when it failed, that 50 tons generates a shock wave with that energy in it. (Actually, to get the *energy* of the shock wave, you have to multiply that 50 tons by the amount of displacement that 50 tons caused in the structure, times a factor of 1/2.) So just because it travels at the speed of sound, don't think of it as *noise*. A BANG! in the air travels 20x slower and only has the mass of air behind it, a shock wave through steel has some substantial fraction of the original load and has the full mass of the steel behind it. It can easily toss people off their feet, and can easily toss a 300 pound hydraulic press into the air (even one rated to exert 50 tons of force, i.e., a "50-ton hydraulic press).
On the other hand, an explosion capable of knocking someone off their feet is often capable of killing them, as the shock wave is traveling at Mach 1+, so the force that's capable of knocking someone over is exerted over a tiny fraction of a second, so it's like getting swatted by a man-sized flyswatter.
A large rush of air going 120mph will lift a person off his feet, as the terminal velocity for a skydiver is about that speed, so the total wind resistance on the person is about the same as their weight. If that gust of wind came from an explosion, it'd be hot enough to burn their skin. These people who were thrown off their feet, did they survive? Were they severely burned? Were they bleeding from their ears, nose, eyes? If not, the gust of air probably came from something other than a huge explosion.
As for fire/heat in the basement, when the planes hit, there was a HUGE fireball that erupted in the floor(s) struck, and a direct path between that floor and the basement via the core where the elevators were. There was plenty of space between the elevators for that fireball to shoot down.
The impulse associated with a 200,000 pound airplane going 450mph shouldn't be minimized, all that energy that was coupled to the structure at the floor struck would've traveled down the steel, with the compression wave going at 20,000fps and the transverse wave going slower, as the transverse stiffness of the structure was less, so the *shaking* part of the collision's force would've taken longer to get to ground level.
Was it your view that these random "explosions" were part of a planned CD? Did they collapse the building(s)? The building(s) failed way up in the air around the floors where the planes struck. What role did the ground-level/mid-level explosions have in the "Controlled Demolition" prior to the collapse?
Cute bunny shot, BTW.
QUOTE (shagster+Jun 11 2007, 08:27 PM)
With the upper block offset laterally by about a foot or more, the columns are disconnected from each other through the collapse front. There isn't much left to support the upper block. Columns of the upper falling block are hitting the concrete slabs of the lower intact section of the tower and vice versa, fracturing the concrete or breaking the floor trusses or their connections. Some of the columns are outside the footprint and hitting air. There would be some limited resistance offered by the gypsum walls separating offices in the region of the front that would be trying to support the whole upper block along with some resistive force during the crushing of office furnishings. That's not going to hold up the upper block even under static conditions, let alone during a dynamic collapse. If columns didn't have to be concentric with each other, people could construct buildings as sloppy as they wanted, with columns arranged any which way and resting on concrete floor slabs at each story.
i think this is wrong, because of the tilt of the upper block. the tilt gives more surface area for perimeter columns to connect with perimeter columns on a least two sides.
the lower leaning side is going to be column on column contact, and will be taking the brunt of the impact.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 9 2007, 06:20 PM)
Re-read my post, the answer is right in front of you.
The concrete was pulverized ON THE WAY DOWN. DURING THE FALL.
You're talking about what happened to in after it landed.
Not really. The final cavity distribution represents a minimum. By this I mean that the mean cavity volume will be minimal.
Before 'crush up' (final compaction), larger cavity volumes means that larger pieces of matter are protected therein.
Even if human survivors were all from within stairwells, the point remains that the building wasn't perfectly compacted. You have made no attempt to quantify a cavity distribution, which is another way of saying that you have made no attempt to show whether or not concrete comminution is dynamically possible, irrespective of energy availability in the same general area.
That your verbal explanations suffice you is self-evident. On a physics board, you shouldn't be surprised if only your fellow true-believers take you seriously.
QUOTE
It was, for the most part, all over at that point.
The breakage started when the floor the concrete was part of got hit by the collapsing part, and the "ball mill" process continued to pulverize the concrete every time another floor collapsed.
There's that amazing "ball mill", again. In my mind, it ranks near the "Amazing Bellows". Quite honestly, I don't think you help your case by mentioning it. Why not go with "column section hammer and anvil?" It seems less silly.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jun 12 2007, 01:26 AM)
1) Accept what? That you are using only one of the three seismograph records? Hence you cannot do a proper spectral analysis? Jeez, try thinking for a change.
Hopefully, I have put more thought into these matters than you did when you proposed a rail car/pulley/velcro 'test' of your theory.
I don't accept that "Any attempt at analysis is hopeless". Fortunately, I expect this to be a matter of fact, one way or another.
2) As expected that paper cites exactly the same news sources. Only damage to the Bathtub that required significant repair was along the south wall, as I stated. Your other leg has been cut off by your own citation.
You're right about the slurry walls. However, none of the columns were sunk into the walls, they were sunk into bedrock well within the wall boundary. You earlier claimed that there was significant hydrostatic pressure, and thus damage associated with column bottoms would reflect as water leakages, but I have not read anywhere that the bedrock was porous. Where did you get this information, and just how strong is the hydrostatic pressure coming through the bedrock? And if the bedrock is porous, how are the interior of the columns sealed to prevent water gushing up from within them?
Hopefully, I have put more thought into these matters than you did when you proposed a rail car/pulley/velcro 'test' of your theory.
I don't accept that "Any attempt at analysis is hopeless". Fortunately, I expect this to be a matter of fact, one way or another.
QUOTE
2) As expected that paper cites exactly the same news sources. Only damage to the Bathtub that required significant repair was along the south wall, as I stated. Your other leg has been cut off by your own citation.
You're right about the slurry walls. However, none of the columns were sunk into the walls, they were sunk into bedrock well within the wall boundary. You earlier claimed that there was significant hydrostatic pressure, and thus damage associated with column bottoms would reflect as water leakages, but I have not read anywhere that the bedrock was porous. Where did you get this information, and just how strong is the hydrostatic pressure coming through the bedrock? And if the bedrock is porous, how are the interior of the columns sealed to prevent water gushing up from within them?
QUOTE
you have made no attempt to show whether or not concrete comminution is dynamically possible,
Take two large concrete blocks, one in each hand.
Smash them together.
Both will break into small pieces, lots of them, plus dust.
If you need equations to understand that, then I'm not impressed with your physics talents, either.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| you have made no attempt to show whether or not concrete comminution is dynamically possible, |
Take two large concrete blocks, one in each hand.
Smash them together.
Both will break into small pieces, lots of them, plus dust.
If you need equations to understand that, then I'm not impressed with your physics talents, either.
There's that amazing "ball mill", again.
I get the idea that you don't know what a ball mill is, and that you think it's dirty.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 12 2007, 03:34 AM)
Take two large concrete blocks, one in each hand.
Smash them together.
Both will break into small pieces, lots of them, plus dust.
If you need equations to understand that, then I'm not impressed with your physics talents, either.
I get the idea that you don't know what a ball mill is, and that you think it's dirty.
no they won't.
they will break into a few large pieces, with very little dust. one or two fracture faults will crack along each block with a single impact.
a ball mill uses spheres to crush things. it is the geometry of these steel gonads that allows even the small bits to be ground smaller. even the smallest particle can get caught between the apex of two curvatures.
that's why it's not call a cube mill, or a pyramid mill.
try this. smash two concrete blocks together until there's nothing but dust, and you have particles of concrete less than 10 microns 'large'.
QUOTE
try this. smash two concrete blocks together until there's nothing but dust, and you have particles of concrete less than 10 microns 'large'.
That wasn't what they had at the cleanup site. Most of the chunks were between 6" and a foot in diameter.
Yes, there was lots of dust. I'm not suggesting that the process continued to the point where it was two 20micron specks breaking into 10 micron specks, I'm saying that it was chunks breaking into smaller chunks PLUS dust from the breakup. That's where the 10 micron dust came from.
There's a distribution for space dust/meteoroids that's a power-law relationship, I forget the value of the exponent, but space rocks smash into each other, too, and there's more small dust particles than there are chunks.
So I guess that proves that the asteroid belt was created in a CD.
QUOTE (newton+Jun 12 2007, 04:03 AM)
no they won't.
they will break into a few large pieces, with very little dust. one or two fracture faults will crack along each block with a single impact.
a ball mill uses spheres to crush things. it is the geometry of these steel gonads that allows even the small bits to be ground smaller. even the smallest particle can get caught between the apex of two curvatures.
that's why it's not call a cube mill, or a pyramid mill.
try this. smash two concrete blocks together until there's nothing but dust, and you have particles of concrete less than 10 microns 'large'.
Take two chunks of concrete. Now put a piece of gypsum between them and smash them together. What's left? Two smaller chunks and lots of dust. People (CT's) tend to forget that the majority of the small dust was not concrete, it was gypsum. Anyone who has worked with wallboard know how easy it is to bust up and turn to dust. It so easy you need to wear a mask when you work with it.
they will break into a few large pieces, with very little dust. one or two fracture faults will crack along each block with a single impact.
a ball mill uses spheres to crush things. it is the geometry of these steel gonads that allows even the small bits to be ground smaller. even the smallest particle can get caught between the apex of two curvatures.
that's why it's not call a cube mill, or a pyramid mill.
try this. smash two concrete blocks together until there's nothing but dust, and you have particles of concrete less than 10 microns 'large'.
Take two chunks of concrete. Now put a piece of gypsum between them and smash them together. What's left? Two smaller chunks and lots of dust. People (CT's) tend to forget that the majority of the small dust was not concrete, it was gypsum. Anyone who has worked with wallboard know how easy it is to bust up and turn to dust. It so easy you need to wear a mask when you work with it.
Grumpy, I know the story with the outer frames, but that is not what is used in the collapse models. But apart from that in the beginning
a_wtc1=(2/3)g
a_wtc2=(3/4)g
implies that there is an amount 0.5GJ lost per fall a distance h, under the assumptions of this working collapse model. Do you now want to say that the E’s become effectively very low on the way to the base? They should become much larger what also follows from the fact that the curves only match in the beginning.
My point is that the global collapse implies that forces are working very localized, step by step.
a_wtc1=(2/3)g
a_wtc2=(3/4)g
implies that there is an amount 0.5GJ lost per fall a distance h, under the assumptions of this working collapse model. Do you now want to say that the E’s become effectively very low on the way to the base? They should become much larger what also follows from the fact that the curves only match in the beginning.
My point is that the global collapse implies that forces are working very localized, step by step.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jun 12 2007, 08:37 AM)
Grumpy, I know the story with the outer frames, but that is not what is used in the collapse models. But apart from that in the beginning
a_wtc1=(2/3)g
a_wtc2=(3/4)g
implies that there is an amount 0.5GJ lost per fall a distance h, under the assumptions of this working collapse model. Do you now want to say that the E’s become effectively very low on the way to the base? They should become much larger what also follows from the fact that the curves only match in the beginning.
My point is that the global collapse implies that forces are working very localized, step by step.
I am unsure I understand your comment but I would like to point out that the model described in the new Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson paper scales the energy being dissipated through column bucking to their approximate cross sections as a function of height.
a_wtc1=(2/3)g
a_wtc2=(3/4)g
implies that there is an amount 0.5GJ lost per fall a distance h, under the assumptions of this working collapse model. Do you now want to say that the E’s become effectively very low on the way to the base? They should become much larger what also follows from the fact that the curves only match in the beginning.
My point is that the global collapse implies that forces are working very localized, step by step.
I am unsure I understand your comment but I would like to point out that the model described in the new Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson paper scales the energy being dissipated through column bucking to their approximate cross sections as a function of height.
Here are some statements regarding the adequacy of the steel collection that was used in the WTC investigations:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/ncstmin_oct19-20.htm
QUOTE
Project 3 – Mechanical and Metallurgical Analysis of Structural Steel
Dr. Frank W. Gayle, WTC Investigation, Project 3 Leader.
Q: I have a problem with the statement that the steel collected for the investigation is adequate. If I were doing an accident reconstruction, I would’ve been looking for core columns that were hit by the aircraft. It may be okay from a research perspective. It should not be stated that it is adequate from an investigation point of view.
A: It would have been nice to have, but may have been very hard to find. There is an issue of how the pieces hit would have survived and how they could be identified.
Q: If you go to the site, you look for pieces of the right size, etc. NIST never had the opportunity to do this type of search.
A: The Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) started collecting steel in October of 2001. NIST was a member of that team. That team had a list of steel to look for. Some steel had disappeared and was recycled. NIST took over 8 months before the investigation began. We did not have reconstruction in mind. That would have been extremely expensive for us to do. We tried to get all grades of steel. We tried to get pieces from the impact zone, fire affected pieces, etc. If we had the authority, we would have been more aggressive.
Dr. Frank W. Gayle, WTC Investigation, Project 3 Leader.
Q: I have a problem with the statement that the steel collected for the investigation is adequate. If I were doing an accident reconstruction, I would’ve been looking for core columns that were hit by the aircraft. It may be okay from a research perspective. It should not be stated that it is adequate from an investigation point of view.
A: It would have been nice to have, but may have been very hard to find. There is an issue of how the pieces hit would have survived and how they could be identified.
Q: If you go to the site, you look for pieces of the right size, etc. NIST never had the opportunity to do this type of search.
A: The Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) started collecting steel in October of 2001. NIST was a member of that team. That team had a list of steel to look for. Some steel had disappeared and was recycled. NIST took over 8 months before the investigation began. We did not have reconstruction in mind. That would have been extremely expensive for us to do. We tried to get all grades of steel. We tried to get pieces from the impact zone, fire affected pieces, etc. If we had the authority, we would have been more aggressive.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/ncstmin_oct19-20.htm
It is very shocking. It is ofcource a huge gap between "reconstruction" and only a few steel part... And he admit that the steel had "disappeared and was recycled"
Unbelivenble.
Unbelivenble.
QUOTE
Unbelivenble.
I know that in TV detective shows, a bad guy shoots and kills somebody in front of 100 witnesses and Columbo will dig deeper into it and discover that the victim was actually poisoned by his wife, but in real life, when stuff happens right in front of thousands of witnesses, it isn't a mystery.
They had other priorities, like trying to get at the rotting corpses that were under the steel and rubble, stinking up Manhattan. For lots of reasons, none of them sinister, they wanted to hurry up and put this tragedy behind them.
It was obvious to them what happened to the WTC towers, they were hit by planes, caught fire, and collapsed. You may figure that it couldn't have been that simple, but they knew they weren't in on any plot, and they knew the government didn't plan it, either, and they're in a better position to know that stuff than you are. So it was no mystery to them, and they just wanted to get the bodies recovered and get back to normal. It's just human nature.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Unbelivenble. |
I know that in TV detective shows, a bad guy shoots and kills somebody in front of 100 witnesses and Columbo will dig deeper into it and discover that the victim was actually poisoned by his wife, but in real life, when stuff happens right in front of thousands of witnesses, it isn't a mystery.
They had other priorities, like trying to get at the rotting corpses that were under the steel and rubble, stinking up Manhattan. For lots of reasons, none of them sinister, they wanted to hurry up and put this tragedy behind them.
It was obvious to them what happened to the WTC towers, they were hit by planes, caught fire, and collapsed. You may figure that it couldn't have been that simple, but they knew they weren't in on any plot, and they knew the government didn't plan it, either, and they're in a better position to know that stuff than you are. So it was no mystery to them, and they just wanted to get the bodies recovered and get back to normal. It's just human nature.
a_wtc1=(2/3)g
a_wtc2=(3/4)g
implies that there is an amount 0.5GJ lost per fall a distance h,
I don't want to pick a fight with anybody over this, I do realize that these mathematical models took a lot of honest hard work and I don't want to seem like a nitpicker, but this seems like a point that keeps getting overlooked.
At initiation of the collapse, the acceleration *couldn't* have been constant. It *had* to start at a low value and increase WRT time. It's like trying to state that a tree falls over at a specific acceleration - you can do curve-fitting and find number that fits well enough, but the tree starts out almost in equilibrium and its descent rate is a function of how far away from equilibrium it gets, so it isn't one specific acceleration.
In the WTC case, the building load was constant but the structural load-bearing capacity was slowly eroding over time as the fires took their toll. The initial acceleration would've been the weight of the upper section minus the load-bearing capacity of it's support divided by the mass of the upper section.
Simplifying, it means that the initial acceleration is due only to the lost load-bearing capacity of the structure as it's load-bearing capacity passes through the load it's bearing. That isn't going to be 2/3rds-g or 3/4ths-g, that's going to be 0.000001g. It may only stay at 0.0000001g for 0.0001 sec, but the underlying phenomenon is the structure slowly losing the ability to support its load, and it doesn't cross that line with a large slope. A microsecond after the load-bearing capacity of the structure crosses the load it's bearing, it's carrying all of the load except ten pounds, for instance. So those ten pounds of unsupported weight act to accelerate the 150million pounds of the upper block. Not by much, but a microsecond later, it's now short twenty pounds so the acceleration is double what it was a microsecond ago. This continues to grow until you start being able to notice the movement.
Asserting that it collapses at an initial rate of 3/4g would mean that at Tzero, the structure was fully supporting the load and at >Tzero its structural load-bearing capacity went to 25% of the load instantaneously. If that were *truly* the case, then it would be evidence for a controlled-demolition at Tzero. My irritation about this "nitpick" is that in your very assumptions, you've modeled the CD case.
I know it's a curve-fit and I understand that the acceleration at the outset of the collapse is small and it's easier to start the stopwatch when it's obvious that stuff's started moving, but the WTC started falling slower and there's no discontinuity of the acceleration that would imply a CD. This simplifying assumption makes it appear that there would be.
QUOTE (wcelliott+Jun 12 2007, 01:40 PM)
In the WTC case, the building load was constant but the structural load-bearing capacity was slowly eroding over time as the fires took their toll. The initial acceleration would've been the weight of the upper section minus the load-bearing capacity of it's support divided by the mass of the upper section.
Simplifying, it means that the initial acceleration is due only to the lost load-bearing capacity of the structure as it's load-bearing capacity passes through the load it's bearing. That isn't going to be 2/3rds-g or 3/4ths-g, that's going to be 0.000001g. It may only stay at 0.0000001g for 0.0001 sec, but the underlying phenomenon is the structure slowly losing the ability to support its load, and it doesn't cross that line with a large slope. A microsecond after the load-bearing capacity of the structure crosses the load it's bearing, it's carrying all of the load except ten pounds, for instance. So those ten pounds of unsupported weight act to accelerate the 150million pounds of the upper block. Not by much, but a microsecond later, it's now short twenty pounds so the acceleration is double what it was a microsecond ago. This continues to grow until you start being able to notice the movement.
Wcelliott,
The model presented in the new BLGB paper isn't precise in describing the collapse initiation phase. The continuum model has the acceleration of the upper block (the second time derivative of z) well behaved because all the forces vary smoothly. In order to match the predicted acceleration with the observation, you only need set t = 0 in the empirical drop curve such as to get the best match to the model's predictions. David B. Benson might fill us in on the details of how this is done. This results in setting t = 0 in the empirical curve trough projecting back the time of initial motion to where it should have been had the intial acceleration been roughly constant from the get go. It changes nothing to the subsequent behavior of the towers that the actual collapse possibly began at an excruciatingly low rate when they were hit.
This would resemble the CD case only if explosives had only been used to initiate the collapse at the level of the damaged floors. Few conspiracy theorists feel motivated to argue for this weak thesis. They assume that the rapid collapses require explosives on several floors.
Simplifying, it means that the initial acceleration is due only to the lost load-bearing capacity of the structure as it's load-bearing capacity passes through the load it's bearing. That isn't going to be 2/3rds-g or 3/4ths-g, that's going to be 0.000001g. It may only stay at 0.0000001g for 0.0001 sec, but the underlying phenomenon is the structure slowly losing the ability to support its load, and it doesn't cross that line with a large slope. A microsecond after the load-bearing capacity of the structure crosses the load it's bearing, it's carrying all of the load except ten pounds, for instance. So those ten pounds of unsupported weight act to accelerate the 150million pounds of the upper block. Not by much, but a microsecond later, it's now short twenty pounds so the acceleration is double what it was a microsecond ago. This continues to grow until you start being able to notice the movement.
Wcelliott,
The model presented in the new BLGB paper isn't precise in describing the collapse initiation phase. The continuum model has the acceleration of the upper block (the second time derivative of z) well behaved because all the forces vary smoothly. In order to match the predicted acceleration with the observation, you only need set t = 0 in the empirical drop curve such as to get the best match to the model's predictions. David B. Benson might fill us in on the details of how this is done. This results in setting t = 0 in the empirical curve trough projecting back the time of initial motion to where it should have been had the intial acceleration been roughly constant from the get go. It changes nothing to the subsequent behavior of the towers that the actual collapse possibly began at an excruciatingly low rate when they were hit.
This would resemble the CD case only if explosives had only been used to initiate the collapse at the level of the damaged floors. Few conspiracy theorists feel motivated to argue for this weak thesis. They assume that the rapid collapses require explosives on several floors.
WC, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to explain but this is exactly what David Benson is trying to say at least 10 times in this forum. This nitpicking (whatever that means, my dictionary doesn't find it) is the work of those people that tried to describe the global collapse. Dr. Greening, the eminent Prof. Bazant, DDB et al. I've also tried to write that down simply by using the discrete formalism, pancaking etc and I can reproduce exactly what David means and I think that I understand the model and I respect their work very much, but I just have some questions about it and that's why I like this forum.
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